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Previous threads:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...787#Post2636787

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...479#Post2637479

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...973#Post2653973

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2667741&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2685360&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2690759&page=1


I posted a brief recap of my sitch in the past 2 or 3 threads so I won't do that again here.
My W and I are piecing. She is remorseful and I believe she is doing everything she can to make amends. If you were to ask me what else she could be doing, I don't know that I could list anything. She has (for now) finally stopped contacting OM's W. They are both blocked from text, email and phone calls. Getting her to stop contact OM's W was a big battle for me.

My main issue now is trying to figure out if I can ever "get over" the fact that the A happened. I love my W and I do want to stay M, but I can't live the rest of my life under the shadow of the A.
A few weeks ago, my W felt the need to confront OM about a hurtful text he sent to my W. He basically told her that he never cared about her and that it was only F'ing. Instead of confronting or trying to contact him, she wrote a letter. A letter that will never be sent. I read that letter because she texted the contents to a friend and I have access to all her text messages. That letter said:
The realization of what I was to you - what you told me in that text - is devastating to me. I guess I have been in denial long enough haven't I? I feel so sick. How could I give in like that? How could I have fallen so hard and felt so strong emotion for a lie?
I didn't lie to you about my feelings, my heart or my soul. I didn't use you as an experiment. I won't twist my truth and lie to save anyone else's feelings. You can't include me in that statement from your test that stated NOTHING was real. For me, it was real. You can't decide for the both of us.
I know walking away was the right thing for us. We wondered why this was happening and we now know it was to eventually strengthen our marriages.
The truth for me is the same as it has always been. Even in my pain, devastation, anger, tears, depression, loneliness and selfishness, it is the same. Even with your pain, fear and cowardly ways, it is the same.
YOU ARE A LIGHT AND A BLESSING.......My life is better because you were part of it.


I posted this in my last thread but I'm posting again because it is something that I still struggle with. I understand she had feelings for him. I understand she felt it was real. I'm fine with all that. What I'm not fine with is that she sees the A as something that happened so that our M could be BETTER. I'm not fine with her seeing him as a blessing and that her life is better because he was a part of it. The truth is that the A almost destroyed our M (and may still). He is not a blessing. He is a blight.

My question is, am I just supposed to accept that she views the A and OM as a blessing in her life? Am I not just living a lie if I choose to live with a woman that believes this? I don't know that I can. Should I just accept that this is just "fog" talk and that eventually she will see it as that? I just don't know that I can live the rest of my life with my W if she views the A as a blessing instead of a tragic, hurtful decision that she regrets.

Ugh.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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LiM What if the reality is that at that time in her life he "was" a blessing to her? She's not at that time in her life anymore now. Does that turn a past blessing into a curse? Perhaps not.

It is a concern if the next time she hits a rough patch she looks back at that bit of her past and thinks it's worth trying again. I'm very much not an expert enough in how anyone thinks to know what the right thing for her or you to think or do is though.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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Whether you accept or not is your choice. Do you want to stay in a M or an R with her? You should come to terms with it and forgive IMO if you do. An IC and other sources may help. My WW is still very much in an A, but I have begun to run a separate track in my mind which offers forgiveness whether we get to R again or not. Why, because I realize I cannot live the rest of my life with this pain. I refuse. Don't do it to yourself man. Your W had chemicals blasting off in her brain (oxytocin, dopamine) which told her she fell in love with this dude. Imagine your first HS relationship and how bad it hurt when it ended. This is what I akin my WW's A to. She is like a child who feels finally free of being an adult and is off playing.

You don't see it now, perhaps you shouldn't or never will view this as a blessing. However, there are many statistics out there which show that couples who survive an A come back stronger, healthier, and better than ever before. Why? because they learned how to be individuals, they learned how to communicate, and they learned how to love each other properly in order to get back together. Again, those arn't my words - do some reading on it. The numbers are out there. Look at the psychology today website.

All things said, where you at [censored] nonetheless, but you are further ahead than me right now. She is back and the healing has begun for both of you I hope


"There is no more important fight than the one for ourselves. Keep on winning." Ginger1, Read her newbies.
BD: Feb '16
D: Mar '17
Piecing: Putting the self back together was my piecing.
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PS - MWD's book DR, page 56 item #6 "an affair doesn't have to ruin a marriage" check it out


"There is no more important fight than the one for ourselves. Keep on winning." Ginger1, Read her newbies.
BD: Feb '16
D: Mar '17
Piecing: Putting the self back together was my piecing.
S6


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LiM,

I agree with CT. You need to get some help to eliminate the hurt you feel. Look at it from her perspective, it is a blessing to your W because she realized she had a good thing with you. It is in the past and it has to be let go so you and your W can move on with your R and M.

How much time will you give yourself to make an attempt to get past this feeling you have? Have you done everything you can to get past it or are there other things you can do?

I pray that you will heal from this and let the frustration and anger flow through you to have a good R again.


H-46 XW-38 T-7 M-6
S-9,8,8,6,4
S 11/30/15, I filed 12/8/15
EA 2/1/16 D dismissed 3/24/16
PA 3/18/16 confirmed 4/22/16
XW files for D 4/1/16 - D final 11/17/16
Finally moving forward...
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Originally Posted By: LiM

My question is, am I just supposed to accept that she views the A and OM as a blessing in her life? Am I not just living a lie if I choose to live with a woman that believes this? I don't know that I can. Should I just accept that this is just "fog" talk and that eventually she will see it as that? I just don't know that I can live the rest of my life with my W if she views the A as a blessing instead of a tragic, hurtful decision that she regrets.

Ugh.


My take is this. It is pretty well established that many people in doomsday "cults" don't tend to discard their beliefs when The End fails to come as expected. Even when confronted with overwhelming evidence, they tend to revise and double down on their beliefs rather than confront the possible reality that they may have been wrong or mislead or taken advantage of.

I know mind-reading is bad, but in that letter I see someone still struggling to process the ramifications of their actions. It may just be a needed waypoint on her way to coming to terms with everything, and doesn't mean she truly believes everything she wrote, or will still believe it tomorrow.

If I were in your shoes, I would try to view this as another "believe nothing they say" and focus on her actions, which seem to be genuine effort towards reconciling. With time and continued effort from your W you may come to view this as just a fog-induced hiccup; if you can't get over it you can always cross that bridge in the future, but no drastic change is needed now.

Rootin' for ya!


Me, WW - Upper 30s
BD - Apr 1 2016
EA - Apr 7 2016 (discovered; ongoing for months; did not confront right away)
Confronted wife about EA - May 17
Wife sent NC email to OM - July 11
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Lim, I am the last person to tell you how to feel. I can tell you what I have observed over the years. I see the H focusing on getting back his W from the clutches of the OM. Even those LBH'S who are able to reasonably detach, and then reconcile with his W, and experiences a period of vulnerability to becoming the WAH. It seems to happen shortly after the decision to reconcile. During the piecing stage, the behavior of his WW haunts him and his anger becomes darker.

Quote:
My main issue now is trying to figure out if I can ever "get over" the fact that the A happened. I love my W and I do want to stay M, but I can't live the rest of my life under the shadow of the A.


A therapist is probably needed to give you the tools to deal with it. I would think it's like a death. You don't exactly get over it, but you learn how to keep living, in spite of it.

You are in a lot of pain, and maybe expecting too much at this point. You are angry. That is not unreasonable. Death causes anger, too. But what can you do about it? You can't undo the death. Being angry that death took that person, doesn't do much to make things better....,.......but the anger is there. You have to feel it, and find a way to cry it out, scream it out, run it out, pray it out, attend therapy to get it out..............whatever to get it out. B/c the harsh reality is that we cannot change what happened. No matter how angry we are, it won't change the facts. So, let yourself have a period of time to feel the emotion of anger, just find a way to let it run out, so that you can get on with life.

Quote:
A few weeks ago, my W felt the need to confront OM about a hurtful text he sent to my W. He basically told her that he never cared about her and that it was only F'ing. Instead of confronting or trying to contact him, she wrote a letter. A letter that will never be sent. I read that letter because she texted the contents to a friend and I have access to all her text messages. That letter said:
I posted this in my last thread but I'm posting again because it is something that I still struggle with. I understand she had feelings for him. I understand she felt it was real. I'm fine with all that. What I'm not fine with is that she sees the A as something that happened so that our M could be BETTER. I'm not fine with her seeing him as a blessing and that her life is better because he was a part of it. The truth is that the A almost destroyed our M (and may still). He is not a blessing. He is a blight.


Look, I want your undivided attention b/c I want you to get this through your brain, okay? You are not seeing your W as an addict. I want to shake you............she is addicted!!! Would you take it so personally if she was addicted to drugs and you found a letter where she expressed how great she felt when she high with on the drug? Oh, I can hear all the betrayed spouses rising up and saying how this is different b/c of the betrayal and infidelity and everything else.......I know that. I am saying you are looking at her and expecting much more from her than you would an addict........aren't you? You said she was remorseful. Even so, she has to go through the withdrawals AFTER she ENDS all contacts that are TIED to the drug of her choice.

The decission to stay in the M and end the A did not automatically cut all the feelings your W had, like it or not.......that's how an addiction works. The drug addict can be remorseful and want to get clean.......but that doesn't do a thing to the cravings. She has to kick it. She has to go through the withdrawals. Your WW has not gone through withdrawals. When she wrote this letter, she was craving her drug of choice. Do you understand that? So you?

Deleat this letter! Stop reading it. It is poison to your soul. Every time you read it and post it here and talk about it, you take a big dose of poison. It is one thing to experience anger over the betrayal of your W, but quite another to nurse it. I see you hanging on to this letter as you nursing your anger. Sure you struggle with it. It doesn't get better by keeping the letter alive. Does it? Who is keeping it alive? You!

These are words of an addicted woman. No matter what excuse she gave you for her feeling the "need" to write..........that "need" was her craving. Do you get that? It was all fantasy. A dream castle that was pure fiction. So, throw that darn letter away and stop reading it. Right now, it is doing a lot more damage to your M........b/c you allow it to have power through you.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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[/quote]Sandi2

Look, I want your undivided attention b/c I want you to get this through your brain, okay? You are not seeing your W as an addict.

[/quote]

Sandi2 is 100% right man. I just put the very similar statement in another post this morning. I compared my WW A to my Oxy addiction. I hit rock bottom and threw them into a garbage disposal. But guess what, if I'm in a room with it, I have to leave that room. I'm only 6 months off, too fragile. Your W, same thing. Again, not my words, the evidence out there to prove this is overwhelming. Oxytocin & Dopamine


"There is no more important fight than the one for ourselves. Keep on winning." Ginger1, Read her newbies.
BD: Feb '16
D: Mar '17
Piecing: Putting the self back together was my piecing.
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Thank you Sandi and the rest of you for taking the time to respond. Thank you for "shaking" me and making me listen.
This "letter" was written only a couple of weeks ago and the A ended only 3 months ago so not much time has elapsed.
I guess I haven't been looking at my wife as an addict. I've said the words but I guess I've not believed it. Its a lot easier to blow it off if I swap "affair" for "heroin." If I do that, the letter then becomes ridiculous.
I have forgiven my W. I couldn't have let her come home if I hadn't. I can get over the A. My fear is that I can't get over it if she continues to see it as a "blessing" for the rest of our lives. But if this is just part of the withdrawal, I need to find the strength to endure it.
I DO believe that we can come out of this stronger than we were before. I've changed SO much since all of this began. I'm not the same person and neither is my W. There are blessings, they just don't have anything to do with OM.
On Monday, I'm meeting with our MC by myself to discuss my fears that surround this letter. With the feedback I am getting here and with the help our our MC, I think I can find a healthy way to deal with my emotions and not lose sight of saving my M, which is still what I want.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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This is all painful to read about.

Anyway, you might like reading "Mating in Captivity" by Esther Perel. It could expand your view of human sexuality in the context of a monogamous marriage, might help you get over the affair just a bit better. Dunno.


Me: 50, MLC/WW 45
Young kids
Nov 2015: BD1
Apr 2016: BD2
Jan 2017: W filed
Feb 2017: D final
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Lim hang in there. 3 months is a very short period of time. It took my W almost 2 years to apologize for what she had done. I mean genuinely feel bad about what it did to us as a family and her as a person.
She will get over it with time and so will you.
Like Sandi said I don't think you will ever forget it.
Like anything else, it takes time. Just the other day I was running in a park where I know my W spent time with OM.
No way that would have happened 2 years ago. Did I think about it and remember it? yes
But it didn't bother me
It just takes time. Keep being there for your W


M 37 W 30
S 7
Together 10 years
Married 9 years
BD: 12/12/12(W filed same day)
I moved to apartment 1/11/13
W and S moved to MIL 1/11/13
Peicing: 6/3/13
Reconciled: 7/2013
BD2: 4/20/16
still working on it
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Quote:
I have forgiven my W. I couldn't have let her come home if I hadn't. I can get over the A. My fear is that I can't get over it if she continues to see it as a "blessing" for the rest of our lives. But if this is just part of the withdrawal, I need to find the strength to endure it.


I am saying this with more tenderness than my previous post, Lim. It is wonderful you were able to forgive her. Success means that you keep on forgiving her. In order for both of you to make it through this hell, you have to forgive her time, after time, after time again. Every time you have these doubts and fears. Every time she carelessly does something that causes you pain, frustration, or brings back a bad memory. Every time you feel like giving up, you have to forgive her. Please understand that forgiveness does NOT mean it makes what she did right, nor any approval from you. It is not forgetting it by sweeping it under the rug. I won't go into a lot of what it is and isn't. There is a ton of information on the Internet on the subject of forgiving......when healing from an affair.

I hope I can help a tiny bit in putting some your fear to rest, by telling you that once your W gets completely through the withdrawals, and she has sufficient time to recooperate ......she will not see OM as any blessing, whatsoever. I can't stress enough how this takes more time than you LBH'S think it will. She has a painful journey ahead of her. She is not restored all at one time. Maybe that's what H's don't understand about the WW. It comes in baby steps for her. Some women recover a lot faster than others, but I have not seen any that just made a complete turnabout at one time. She did not become wayward overnight, and she won't come out of it overnight.

It was nine years ago, when I started my journey back. I am thoroughly disgusted...to the point of wanting to gag, when I think of OM.....(which I never think of him these days, except when I make a reference such as now). My actions caused so much pain and I will forever, sorely, regret my behavior/involvement/feelings/ thoughts and the words I said to him. Many words were typed on the computer and my H saw them. He almost had a heart attack, and his health has steadily went down since that time. I did that to him.

I don't go back and read my story, and some of the dates and how long it took for this and that to happen.......I can't remember as well now. However, I promise you that I have no positive feelings for OM. But know this, I did not get to this point in a few months. I was coming to the board, getting the tools I needed.........and it still took me like (I can't remember)......... a year, before I could go to my H with humility and a broken a heart for what I had done to him, our M, and our family. And I had been trying to get better! You see, I still had that mindset of resentment and disrespect, plus I had a lot of stubborn pride. I had a lot of forgiving to do, too. In fact, I had so much work (mentally, emotionally, and spiritually) to do. It is a process for the W who was wayward, and everyone's length of time varies......but it's still a process. For the record, it didn't take nine years, I've just stayed on the board that long. smile


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
For the record, it didn't take nine years, I've just stayed on the board that long. smile


Sandi,

Let me just say for me, and I'm sure countless other LBS's on this board, THANK YOU for being here. You are truly a treasure and I'm blessed to have you provide your insight.

I don't mind 2x4's. Sometimes, that's exactly what it takes to get though to someone. I'm glad you care enough to deliver that 2x4 to me.

I guess my feeling was that if my W was remorseful, then all the feelings associated with OM would instantly sour. But I don't guess that's realistic. I hate it but that's the way it is. I guess that I've also not recognized that forgiveness is something that I will continually need to do. She will likely continue to do and say things that will hurt my feelings and so long as she doesn't go back to having an A, I will just have to be the bigger man and continue to forgive and be the lighthouse.

Thank you for encouraging me to believe that the positive feelings associated with OM will eventually fade with time. I needed to hear that. My problem right now is that because I know she still sees him as a "blessing", I want to withdraw from her. It makes me want to not be around her, not look at her and not be affectionate with her. I guess I need to work with IC and MC on tools to help me deal with those emotions. I DO want to have positive experiences with my W. I DO want to be affectionate with her. I just don't know how to put all this other $h!t out of my mind so that those good, loving feelings will return to me.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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Sandi,

Let me just say for me, and I'm sure countless other LBS's on this board, THANK YOU for being here. You are truly a treasure and I'm blessed to have you provide your insight.

I agree with LiM Sandi. In the short time I have been here your support and comments for me and what I have read to others have been inspiring. I don't know you, but the fact that you come here on what appears to be a daily basis to help us LBH is evidence of a good heart. For me, I will take this quote from you today:
" Success means that you keep on forgiving her. In order for both of you to make it through this hell, you have to forgive her time, after time, after time again. Every time you have these doubts and fears. Every time she carelessly does something that causes you pain, frustration, or brings back a bad memory. Every time you feel like giving up, you have to forgive her. Please understand that forgiveness does NOT mean it makes what she did right, nor any approval from you. "

It means a lot us all.


"There is no more important fight than the one for ourselves. Keep on winning." Ginger1, Read her newbies.
BD: Feb '16
D: Mar '17
Piecing: Putting the self back together was my piecing.
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How are you going LIM, just want to check in as we are in a similar place.


Me: 40 W: 36
T21 M17
S12 D10 D10
ILYBNILWY
EA happened.
PA happened.
June 2016
trying to piece our M and life's back together...
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Lim: I just read this thread and I'm blown away. You are a strong and awesome man. Everyday, all day my W goes through my head and I want nothing more than her to return. After reading yours and other similar threads, I'm reminded that once my W comes home - the real work will begin.

I am blown away by your courage.


M:50
W:53
MR:20
D:21
S:17
S:11
BD-Sept 2015
Suspected PA Sept 2015-Confronted W & OM Dec 2015
Actually EA
In house Sep:Jan/16-May 2016
W moved out:May 22 2016
OM-Intro Oct/17-On scene July/Aug 2017
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Hi bigybiz,

I'm glad my story spoke to you. Thanks for your kind words.

Blueboy,

Thanks for checking on me.
I used to frequent these boards multiple times a day. Lately, I don't as much.

My W and I are getting along pretty well. We've stopped talking about the A. Its rarely discussed even though it is ALWAYS on my mind. My W hasn't contacted OM's W in over a month and a half. We continue to go to MC 1 or 2 x a month. She also goes to IC. I haven't been to IC in a while.
My W is trying to get back into her triathlon training. I've been participating to some degree with her. I'm not an athlete like her at all but I am fit and can do activities with her. She's supposed to run the NYC marathon in November and she's going to try to do a triathlon next month.

Our 20th anniversary is in December. In May, I told her that I wanted to renew our M vows this year. But at the place I am at right now, I don't know if I can do that. My W was with OM on our anniversary last year. I just don't know if I can do anything to celebrate this year. Its pretty painful for me. I'm afraid I'm at a point of ILYBNILWY. I'm sure I'll be fine given enough time but I just can't get that $h!t out of my head and I don't know that I can live with someone that constantly reminds me of that. I'm just committed to taking each day as it comes and if someday I decided I don't want to do it anymore, then I'll make a decision then.

When going through the middle of an A, all we can think about is getting our S back. But it is much, much harder than you would ever imagine if you actually get that far. I wouldn't wish this on anyone.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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Yes that must be tough.it is understandable that it is on your mind but dwelling on it is not going to help you. I have no words that will make that easier. What would it take to help you get passed the A? Are you happy to no longer talk about it? After a certain point it is healthy to stop discussing the A, but that is not the same as sweeping it under the carpet.

Yes take it day by day. No need to worry further down the line. Feelings can change and if both of you do the necessary,tthere is no reason ye cannot have a much happier future. You have done a lot of good work since BD. Give yourself time to readjust. You can do it.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
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Hi Lim,

I am glad to see you here. I don't check/post much either but I do find it is still helpful in the process of piecing. As I always say this is a very long road. I am 16 months into piecing and I still think about the A often and can say that my feelings still change at times. There is a honeymoon/bonding phase, which is short lived, because we are so overcome with relief. The reality is that this person we loved, trusted, and dedicated our lives to hurt us and betrayed us in the worst way possible. We owe it to ourselves to honor those feelings but also to understand that they cannot be the one to heal us. Detachment continues in piecing. DB is a way of life to be independent and continue to 180 & GAL for us and us alone.

I know what you mean about ILYBINILWY and I think it is "normal" for that to last a long time. Those feelings are not based on emotion and attraction any longer but ultimately will be a daily choice. It choice may or may not come as time goes on. That is okay if you choose to withdraw. But as you continue to be the best man you can be, your Rs in life will be stronger. This is the silver lining for all of us in this he11 we've been dealt.

I admire you for thinking practically and hanging in there. If months and years go by and you decide that this M is not right for you then that is okay. You will at least feel resolve that you did what you could to give it your best shot. For me, I look at my H and the benefits to everyone in the family and choose each day to try and make it work. I don't let my emotions lead me. Some days I pull back naturally and some days I work on a connection. Most days I do nothing for my M and just live.

What I can say also is that the thoughts and triggers may be there for a long while, but naturally overtime the emotional impact they have on you will fade. It is then that your decision process becomes more clear. Allow that time if you can.

Stay with us here. As you read other sitches and give support and advice to people in mid crisis, it will help you understand your sitch and your W better as well.

(((Lim)))

-Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Trust once broken takes a long time to rebuild. You are really only a month and a half away from contact with the OM. I've read a number of places that trust may take up to 3 years to be back where it was. It depends on the situation. I am about 1.5 years out of getting to the bottom of my W's A and it still bothers me, just less. It gets better with time.


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Lim,

Approximately 6 - 9 months after discovery day is when the endorphins you've been running on just crash. You've been on high alert for so long and now that this have calmed down your brain is taking a break. This physiological occurrence is normal and results in depression and anger. You start gaining back the weight you lost on the infidelity diet and find yourself getting snippy.

This is normal and the best way to handle it is to push through it. Get up and get going. Keep running and training with her. Ask her to help you push through this period. I'm guessing that she'll be more than willing to help.

Are you drinking? Is she drinking?


As far as the affair being a blessing, I agree with Sandi. You recover IN SPITE OF the affair. The affair is NOT a gift (cough @cadet smile ) In time your wife won't look at the affair itself as a blessing and she'll loathe OM. YOU are (and always were) her biggest blessing and even more so as you strive to become a better husband, father, man than you were before because that's who you are choosing to be IN SPITE OF the affair.

Every day that you make that choice (to be better IN SPITE OF the affair) you LEAD her closer to that conclusion.


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Originally Posted By: GB
The affair is NOT a gift (cough @cadet smile )

What Cadet says is that TIME is a gift, not that the affair is a gift. Although my exH's affairs sort of were a gift to me, as they forced me to confront and correct many crappy things about myself.
Just sayin' smile


Linda

Me 65, Ex 64
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2 adult S, 4 G-Kids
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Wow. Thanks to all of you for stepping in with your words of encouragement. I'm definitely in a funk and in need of it. Georgia, you showed up with the right words at just the right time. I am in the 6-9 month period. I've put back on 10-12 pounds (I needed to lose some weight but not as much as I did), I have become snippy, a little depressed and am silently more angry about any number of things that occurred during the A.
I am not drinking. My favorite thing was to go to the bar after work, have 2 beers and as many cigarettes as possible while drinking those 2 beers. I've stopped going to the bar and have stopped smoking.
My W is sneaking alcohol. I haven't called her out on it. She will stop at a restaurant (without me) and have a couple of drinks or go to a movie theater to see a movie that serves alcohol. The other night, I felt she had been drinking (nothing obvious laying around but she was acting a little loopy and went to sleep at 7:30pm) so I went to check in her car and it was locked in our garage. We NEVER lock our cars inside the garage. So she was likely hiding empty bottles in her car.
I guess I will need to address this.
She went to train this morning and asked if I wanted to go with her. She intended to swim a mile and then run another 6. That's more than I can do so I chose not to go. I guess I could have chosen to go, do what was within my limits and then just wait on her to finish. I could read a book or listen to music.

I guess I'm in a place where I'm feeling like I don't want to try anymore. I have lots of negative thoughts running through my mind and most of them aren't real. Its just negative emotions. I'm feeling like she only came back because she had no other options. OM dumped her and I had changed so what the hell. Why not come back and give it a shot? Or maybe she came back because of the financial security I provide? My mind wants to focus on all the potential negative reasons why she came back and not on any potential positive reason. I don't want to see that she possibly came back because she loves me, is remorseful and is willing to do whatever it takes to fix it. About the only time I feel that her intentions are genuine is when she is crying or overtly upset because of the A. But she can't go through the rest of her life being like that. In fact, it almost pisses me off when I see her being happy or positive. And I realize that isn't fair either. I've still got a lot of ME issues to work on.


Me: 48 y/o
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Originally Posted By: LiM
I am not drinking. My favorite thing was to go to the bar after work, have 2 beers and as many cigarettes as possible while drinking those 2 beers. I've stopped going to the bar and have stopped smoking.


You're still in the first year of quitting smoking so stay diligent.

Did you stop to have those beers out because having beers at home encouraged or enabled your wife to drink? In other words, you hid your drinking as a way to control her drinking. Pretty unhealthy co-dependent behavior.




Quote:
My W is sneaking alcohol. I haven't called her out on it. She will stop at a restaurant (without me) and have a couple of drinks or go to a movie theater to see a movie that serves alcohol. The other night, I felt she had been drinking (nothing obvious laying around but she was acting a little loopy and went to sleep at 7:30pm) so I went to check in her car and it was locked in our garage. We NEVER lock our cars inside the garage. So she was likely hiding empty bottles in her car.

I guess I will need to address this.


I think you need to address this too. But how? I'm not an expert in this area or otherwise experienced. I just know your individual (your wife AND you) problems are probably more than just the infidelity. Some peer advice is nice but I'd encourage you to look for a local support group like al anon or something.

In other words, infidelity is a symptom of the substance abuse issues effecting your entire family. Until that is resolved, you're not really recovered and she's likely to do it again along with a number of other risky behaviors. You're not safe with someone who sneaks off drinking wherever she can secretly consume alcohol. Your children aren't likely safe either as she buzz/drunk drives them around and does who knows what.

I'm not saying this as a prude. I enjoy a beer or four now and then. But I can leave a 12 pack in my fridge for a year and not have one. Sneaking around like she does is alcoholic behavior. The training she does is her way of managing it (dry drunk obsessive behavior). It sounds to me from all you've described on these threads that it's not the secondary issue you "might need to address". Rather --- it IS the issue.

But even if she's NOT an alcoholic, her drinking (especially her secret drinking) is an issue to you. You need al anon if only to help you establish boundaries like = if she wants to remain in a relationship with you, she needs to not drink alcohol. Maybe you say for a year. Maybe your boundary is she can only drink with you. I don't know what they tell you or teach you at al anon because I've never been or needed to go. Just address this issue.

Quote:
I guess I'm in a place where I'm feeling like I don't want to try anymore. I have lots of negative thoughts running through my mind and most of them aren't real. Its just negative emotions. I'm feeling like she only came back because she had no other options. OM dumped her and I had changed so what the hell. Why not come back and give it a shot? Or maybe she came back because of the financial security I provide? My mind wants to focus on all the potential negative reasons why she came back and not on any potential positive reason. I don't want to see that she possibly came back because she loves me, is remorseful and is willing to do whatever it takes to fix it. About the only time I feel that her intentions are genuine is when she is crying or overtly upset because of the A. But she can't go through the rest of her life being like that. In fact, it almost pisses me off when I see her being happy or positive. And I realize that isn't fair either. I've still got a lot of ME issues to work on.


I'm sorry you are tired and depressed and would really just prefer to conflict avoid. But conflict avoiding will only result is deeming resentment as your marriage woes continue to remain as she continues drinking and sneaking around. Right now you are in a good position to erect and enforce new boundaries. You have your out. You can divorce her on grounds of adultery and everyone will be sympathetic to you. Divorcing an alcoholic in denial isn't as easy.
NOW is the time to make changes and work on things properly. You can't manage her drinking. She probably needs help. Such help could be a condition of you staying and bothering reconciling. [side thought - any such help needs to be women only - mixed AA meetings are breeding grounds for affairs].

I've known people that have called and got their spouses arrested for driving their kids around drunk. They make it certain that they will no longer participate in the game of hiding and enabling their substance abuse problem. Holding a spouse accountable is part of the job of being a spouse whether they like it or not (she's free to divorce you if she doesn't like it).

What a terribly difficult position to be in. I know you've probably been trying to hold it all together for years and what do you get in return, her betrayal. No one would blame you if you quit, but if I were you, I think I would TRY to address this issue properly while building a custody case on the backside so I could continue protecting my children from her behavior should it continue because if you do divorce her - her drinking won't have to be secretive anymore.


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Quote:
Did you stop to have those beers out because having beers at home encouraged or enabled your wife to drink?


I banned alcohol from our house about 6 years ago with my W's first go around with drinking issues. The drinking eventually stopped being a problem after counseling, changing anti depressants and discovering triathlons. I never banned drinking all together. Its not unusual for us to have a couple of drinks with dinner. But the binge drinking came back again last year when the A started.
The real reason I went to the bar? So I could smoke. I love smoking but I don't do it at home. I've smoked off and on for 20 years and I normally don't do it every day. Not even every week or month. But since discovering the A, I've been smoking every day. That's stopped now and I'm working to make it permanent. But that is the main reason I would go to the bar; so I could smoke.

You can cut the tension in our house with a knife. I've definitely pulled back emotionally. I'm still working out and making sure I participate in family matters. I help with laundry and do all the grocery shopping. Today, I helped my daughter paint her room. The OLD me, would have just left that to my W. But I was there the whole time and cleaned up by myself when done (old me would have left that to my W too). But I just get on the same level with my W. I wish I knew exactly what the issue was but I can't point to any one thing. I wish I could say that my problem is x, y or z so that we could talk about it. But I don't know what this problem is other than my W had an A and I hate that. I hate knowing that.

I've had al anon suggested before but I've resisted because I don't believe my W is an alcoholic in the traditional sense. She does binge drink and she does it to cope with her emotional issues. Does that make her an alcoholic? I don't know. She's one hell of a functional alcoholic if she is.

She definitely has an addictive personality. I didn't realize it at the time but when she got over the drinking problem several years ago, all she did was exchange one addition for another (obsessive training instead of drinking). I didn't realize it even when I came to resent how much time she devoted to her training. When the A started, she dramatically cut back on her training but then the drinking started. When I discovered the A and confronted her, training stopped all together and the drinking got worse.

I guess we've still got to get down to the core issue and figure out how to solve that so that we can not end back up in this place again.

Thanks for the words of encouragement.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
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LiM,

The addiction stuff is scary. I know.
I was addicted to porn. It's been almost 300 days clean and sober. It's weird - I still crave sex, but it's not a 'need' like it used to be. Since I'm single again, and no girlfriend, I'm actually abstaining from everything. Exercise has been good at keeping my mind from wandering, like exercise for your wife is.

However, my ex-ww has addiction issues as well. I only could see the forest thru the trees after the D. She smoked in college, drank a lot (alcoholism runs in her family), then became bulimic before and after we got married. From there, she had bouts of depression, and went on SSRI meds. While that stabilized her emotional state, I think the 'prone to addiction' thing has manifested itself a few times since marriage, from exercise, to having lots of pain pills around, to using Facebook 3 hours a night, to fighting and giving into cravings (wouldn't eat and then eat one thing at a sit-down, was never good at balancing meals). My ex-ww OM is yet another addiction.

I say this, as you have started to piece - I think she has an issue, and you're not admitting it. Of course she won't, and that in itself is the tricky thing. How far down does she need to go to realize she's probably an alcoholic? Binge drinking and then hiding the bottles really is alcoholism. I think you need to bring this to the attention of someone far more versed than I am, specifically to what next steps are for you and her. I think she will need help. The issue is will she accept and realize her need for help.


M46, EXWW46
M15 T17
D20, S19, D13
M - Addiction since 1998
W EA/PA #1 2013/2014
W EA #2 June 2015...
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Hi LiM

Hope you and W are going ok?

Quick question me and my W are starting MC next week, wondered if you had any advice regarding this with the lesson you have learned from your MC?


Me: 40 W: 36
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S12 D10 D10
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Hey Blueboy,

I need to read up on your sitch. Everything runs together and I can't keep everyones sitch separated.

Once you are truly piecing, MC is essential. I think its important to find a MC that stresses individual responsibility and accountability. We all bring our own garbage into the M and we are each responsible for our own faults. You have to own your $h!t and your W has to own hers. A good MC will insist on that. Your W is not responsible for any poor choices or behavior you have made and visa versa.
I have found it incredibly valuable and I imagine we will be going to MC for quite some time. If you have more questions, feel free to ask. I'll try and get caught up on your posts.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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Update on my situation.
My W and I have not talked much about the A over the past 6 weeks. I realize now that things have been festering inside me and I needed to get those things out. Some things happened this week that allowed all of that to get out and I'm feeling a little better now.

My W and I had plans to go to a social event last night that involved members of the "Big City" triathlon group (separate entity from OM's training group although some athletes are members of both groups). My W blocked OM's W on FB back in July and there had been no communication since then.
At the beginning of this week, my W was concerned that OM and his W might possibly come to the social event we were planning on going to yesterday. But because they were blocked on FB, she couldn't see if they had RSVP'd to come. So she unblocked them and low and behold they were planning on coming even though this event had nothing to do with OM's training group (but some of his athletes would be at the event). And right after discovering that, my W started receiving messages from OM's W. She has been sending messages to my W this whole time but none of them had been coming through. She is still of the mind set that we all need to meet and figure out how to heal together. She is also repeatedly asking to meet with me.
I understand that this woman is hurting and just wants the pain to go away. But there will be no healing "together." That doesn't work for me.
My W messaged her back and told her that we were going to the event and that it would be a very bad idea for them to come as well. They didn't come. It would have been a disaster if they had. It was a very small group in an intimate setting. I would have lost my $h!t had they shown up.
I've had an attorney draw up a cease and desist letter telling the other couple (mainly the W) that they are not to contact us anymore. I intend to meet with her this weekend. I will be kind to her but I will lay down a boundary that my W has been unwilling to enforce and will do that with the aid of the letter from the attorney.

Working through all this with my W allowed me to get out a lot of the frustrations that I have been feeling over the past few weeks. I have talked to my W about her drinking problems and it has been much better over the past 2-3 weeks. I will be keeping a very close eye on it.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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When the two of you decided to start Piecing, did you go to MC?


M-43 W-40
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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Originally Posted By: MrBond
When the two of you decided to start Piecing, did you go to MC?


Yes. We started piecing in April while my W was still living in her rent house. During April, we started going on dates and spending a lot of time together. At the beginning of May, she started sleeping at our house again every night and she fully moved back in before the end of the month. We started MC on May 3rd.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
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2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
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Did you tell the C about how you were feeling and thoughts of the A? Sometimes you need to tell your spouse what you need to hear or have done in order to heal. It does take time.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Last Saturday, I met with OM's Wife. My W was gone for the day at a bike race so I took that opportunity to go meet with OM's W. I didn't want my W to know beforehand because she would worry. I told her about it afterwards.
OM's W and I talked for 3 hours. I had a lawyer prepare a cease and desist letter (because she keeps contacting my W) and had it in my pocket but I ended up not giving it to her.
We talked about our mutual hurt. There wasn't any real spouse bashing going on.
From reading the FB messages between OM and my W, I felt that she was being treated very disrespectfully (by the way he spoke to her). OM's W told me that he was in fact doing that. He became the pursuer after I kicked my W out of the house. He then had easy access to her and he admitted to his W that he would pursue my W whenever he wanted to get off and would bug my W relentlessly until she caved. OM told his W that he was basically acting out any and all porn he had ever looked at.
I learned that OM's W had to get a new car because even after detailing the car (used during their encounters) that the "taint" was still there. OM's W told me that she is sickened by having to see images of my W on FB and that she is afraid she would vomit if she ever has to see my W. So I'm thinking "Why the HELL do you keep contacting her then!?!?!?!"

She doesn't blame my W for the A anymore than she does her husband. And I feel the same way. I don't blame OM anymore than I blame my W.
I asked her to stop contacting my W and suggested that she block my W on FB so that she doesn't have to accidentally see anything my W posts (even though they aren't friends on FB). She was still asking if I felt we might ever all sit down together and discuss whats happened and I just told her that I didn't see the point. I also told her it would be a very bad if her husband and I were ever in the same room together. I think she got the gist that I don't want to ever have anything to do with them and that she should not contact my W anymore. That's why I decided not to give her the letter from the lawyer. That will get used if she tries to contact us again.

Where am I at today? I honestly don't know. Yesterday was 8 months since BD. We are fast approaching the 1 yr anniversary of when the A started and it just makes me sick. Our 20 year anniversary is in December and unfortunately, my W was with OM on our anniversary last year. I had originally thought that I wanted to renew our M vows this year but I just can't bring myself to make plans for that. I have a feeling I'm going to be in a very bad place on that day. I find myself imaging my life without my W. My W is remorseful and is a better person today than she was a year ago. But I just can't get the "taint" out of my head. Still very much just taking things 1 day at a time.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
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Originally Posted By: LiM
But I just can't get the "taint" out of my head. Still very much just taking things 1 day at a time.


LiM,

I understand and I'm very sorry. I hope you can get through the icky stuff.

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Hi LiM

Please to hear the meeting with OM W went ok, well done!

Hope you feel better soon, I just think you have to live day to day and keep in the present!

I suppose imagining life without your W is you mind protecting it self against the future possibilities of things going wrong, I have the same feeling day and just want to give up, but the I try and remember the good times we have had in the last 21 years against the bad times!


Me: 40 W: 36
T21 M17
S12 D10 D10
ILYBNILWY
EA happened.
PA happened.
June 2016
trying to piece our M and life's back together...
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So I ask again.

Did you tell the C about how you were feeling and thoughts of the A? Sometimes you need to tell your spouse what you need to hear or have done in order to heal. It does take time.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Originally Posted By: MrBond
So I ask again.

Did you tell the C about how you were feeling and thoughts of the A? Sometimes you need to tell your spouse what you need to hear or have done in order to heal. It does take time.


Did the MC specifically ask "So LiM, how do you feel about all this?" No, he didn't. But both he and my W certainly know exactly how I feel. Have I specifically told my W what I need in order to heal? Well, that's a little difficult. So yes, we have talked about what I need in general terms; not really specifics. First of all, I don't even really know what I need to heal. If I had a list of things that she could say or do, I might tell her. But I don't know what I need. Secondly, I would prefer her to figure out what she needs to be doing. If she is able to figure it out on her own, then that means she's spent a LOT of time thinking about it. This is exactly what I have done to address my part of our M problems. I dug deep to figure out who I was and the life I was living and figured out what I needed to do to change everything that wasn't ok. I made 180's.

If I had to pinpoint one single thing that I KNOW that I need, its that I need to be pursued. I need to know that I am not plan B, that she regrets the A to the core of her being and that she will fight for me and never give up for me. I need to know that she wants me.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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I think that you are dealing with this really well. The thought of a pa and someone else with our spouse is the thing that worst nightmares are made of. But given the right amount of effort, you can and I'm sure will move along from it.

But you are right in a way that you have not told her exactly what she needs to do. I'm with you on the school of thought that although communication is key, they really do need to think about their actions and how they can put things right. Does your wife seem remorseful? In just thinking, there could be an issue with pride or worry that if she persues you, you might turn her down? Just a thought.


Me 26 H 25
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T 5
Baby born 4/14
BD: 1/15
EA: 2/15
PA: 4/15
reconciling: 4/15
ILYBINILWY- 11/15
ILY-1/16
ILYBNILWY 4/16
ILY 6/16
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Originally Posted By: Cherry
Does your wife seem remorseful? In just thinking, there could be an issue with pride or worry that if she persues you, you might turn her down? Just a thought.


Yes, I believe she is remorseful. But the question in my mind is "why?" Is she remorseful for what she did and wants me back more than anything in the world or is she worried she really screwed up a good thing and just wants to come back because its easy. While our M was certainly not perfect and I certainly had a lot of things that needed to be changed, we had a good thing going. We both needed to do a lot of "self" work and work on a lot of issues in our M, but we had a good thing.

I think I figured out what the A boils down to. My W had ZERO sense of self worth. She was looking for anyone or anything (her triathlon stuff) to make her feel worthy. Why didn't I make her feel worthy? I didn't. I didn't lift her up the way I should have. But at the end of the day, you have to feel worthy all on your own. That has to come from within. Although there was a lot more I could have been doing to be a good husband, a sense of self worth comes from within. That's one thing I've found through all of this. I know that I am good enough all on my own. My W isn't there yet and that's probably impeding her ability to make amends. She trying but I see that she still has no sense of self worth.

I love my W but I'm afraid I'm not in love with her. But I'm still trying every day even though I don't want to. I'm hoping that if I try hard enough, long enough, that the pain will fade and I will come to be in love with her again.
I've planned a date for us tomorrow evening. We haven't done a real date, where I plan everything, in a few months. We've done LOTS of things together, but not a real date in a while. I guess the reason that I haven't is because I want HER to take the initiative. I want to be pursued. Even though I know I am "enough" I still want to feel needed, wanted and pursued.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
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"No, he didn't. But both he and my W certainly know exactly how I feel."

You're expecting them to be mindreaders which is what the WAS does. Tell them how you feel. If your C is any good, he/she will tell you how to navigate through it.

"If I had to pinpoint one single thing that I KNOW that I need, its that I need to be pursued."

Then tell them that. One thing though is to not go in with expectations. What you'll find happening is that you'll keep raising the bar and if YOU feel your W isn't doing what you think she should be doing, you're going to pull the old "see, if you REALLY loved me you'd do this..." That's WAS talk.

"I need to know that I am not plan B, that she regrets the A to the core of her being and that she will fight for me and never give up for me."

No one could ever do that because it's not measurable. You need to say exactly what it is you need and you also have to do your part.

"I need to know that she wants me."

She's back with you now, right? Take that as a starting point. Trust me, there are many on here who would die to be in your shoes right now.


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Ignorance, yet knowledge.
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I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that your wife's lack of self-worth is making it difficult for her to do the thing you need her to do--pursue you.

This is something I struggle with, because although I have self-worth in many areas, I realize I have zero sexual confidence. And how does one fix that as a woman in her forties?

Not only that, but women of our generation have a lot of cultural pressure to not pursue. H and I were talking about this just the other day when I used the phrase "never been kissed" and he pointed out that men never use that phrase to describe themselves.

Even if your wife has done the work to realize you need her to pursue you, she might not have the skills to do that.

Probably sounds crazy to a man.


Me: 44
H: 44
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Thanks MrBond and Rose.

MrBond, you are right. I AM acting like a WAS because I am in the process of becoming one. Not intentionally. That's just where I've ended up. I agree that most people here would die to be in the position I'm in; I got my W back. Now I'm wondering if I want her back. But even though I feel like I've got 1 foot out the door sometimes, I'm still trying (forcing myself) to do the things I know I have to do to rekindle the R.
I've planned a date for tonight. I'm having flowers delivered to our dinner table. I'm trying to speak ALL 5 love languages (not just her primary). I'm going to MC. I'm praying. I'm doing everything I know to do to try and bring back the feeling of being IN love w her.

Some new things in the past 24 hours I've discovered. My W has done a good job (to my knowledge) over the past 6-7 weeks of not looking at OM's training group on FB. But she's been back at it this week. Why? I don't know. There is a big race in Australia today and she could be looking to see what the athletes are posting there. Or she could be stalking OM and his W.
She signed up for SnapChat. For those of you that don't know, that is a messaging app that has all its messages disappear after they are sent/received. It can be used as a "cheaters" app. She sent friend requests to 2 local, female training buddies and both of them know about the A and both are heavily involved with OM's training group. One is OM's biz partner. Both are supportive of our M and attempts to reconcile. Neither would support the A. I feel confident about that.
And finally, my W emailed herself an online article about M women keeping the maiden name. My W has always felt a need to maintain her independence and she has fought to maintain it. The only problem is that I've never sought to keep it from her. I've supported everything she's wanted to do and accomplish in life. We've maintained separate bank accounts. She makes more money than me (and that doesn't bother me in the least.) This "need" for independence is the one thing that I know has been an invisible wedge between us this whole time. I am not a sexist. Far from it. But I probably am traditional. Her snap chat user name includes her first initial, ALL of her maiden name, and part of our last name (she probably hit the limit for the max number of characters and that's why its only part of our last name). We've been M 20 year, she has an A, and NOW she wants to start using her maiden name? WTF is that!?!?!


Me: 48 y/o
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Secondly, I would prefer her to figure out what she needs to be doing. If she is able to figure it out on her own, then that means she's spent a LOT of time thinking about it.


Your statement here reminds me of how women want men to just "know" how to fulfill their desires.......without being told what those desires are.

((Lim)), if it had not been for this board, I don't think I would have had a clue to how my H felt or what he needed from me........b/c he would not tell me. It's like playing Blind Man's Bluff, you are "it" and not really wanting to play.

Piecing is such a fragile stage, and you want proof that she sincerely desires you as a man. Not for the life you provide in the M, but just you.

If the MC, or no other source, has relayed how she has to step up and do some heavy lifting now..........can you really expect her to just know it? Sure, it may seem very obvious to you.......just logical, right? Maybe not so much to her, especially if you were always the one pursuing in the MR. If that was always the pattern, and she has not been given a map to follow in this process.........she could be misreading what she sees in you.

Have you relayed the message that you still desire her? When either of you approach the other, is the A standing there between you? Does she see it in your eyes? If all she can see is the destruction she caused, she may see hopelessness. She needs to see hope, just as you do. She will look for it in your eyes.

As the betrayer, it is very difficult to desire, and/or pursue, if she sees judgement/self-righteousness in face of the betrayed. She rejected you, so now.......is it your turn to reject her? Fair or unfair, human nature is what it is.

Have you forgiven her for the A? Okay, but have you really forgiven her for the act of betrayal? From what I have learned from you LBH'S, it is the betrayal that cuts the deepest into your soul.

Each of you have a difficult path, and neither should think their partner's job is easier.

I don't know if you have ever watched the old way women would make quilts for their beds. They would take remnants of fabric and hand stitch those little pieces together, big enough to cover the bed. But the job was not completed. That was just the top part stitched together. Then it was laid on a solid backing, usually with some type of filler between the two layers. They would hand stitch through those layers........to combine into one whole quilt. In other words, it wasn't just a seam across the middle to hold it together. It was painstakingly slow, and then the finality was hemming the edges. The completed quilt would often qualify as art, b/c of the beauty, precision and design. Whether it was art, or not, it spoke of the woman's patience and dedication to complete such a task. Whenever I was given a hand stitched quilt, I saw every little stitch with appreciation for the one who made it. And you know what I noticed whenever I closely examined the stitches? Every stitch may not be exactly like the other one. There is usually a hint of imperfection. That is the distinstion in in hand stitching. But that makes it unique! And to think of the time that's invested into the making of a beautiful quilt! The factory made quilt is just not the same, b/c it lacks the human personal work.

I often remember the times I watched the quilting process, and think of how repairing our MR are similar. We take the remnants of our M and stitch it together. Sometimes we are pricked by the needle as we stitch through the layers, but it is all part of the process. And......we can't zip it through a sewing machine and expect the same results. Piecing our marriages back together has to have hand stitching the remnants to have a whole relationship again.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Thanks Sandi... I find this useful for myself as well.

Best of luck LiM!

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Originally Posted By: sandi2
[quote]
Have you forgiven her for the A? Okay, but have you really forgiven her for the act of betrayal? From what I have learned from you LBH'S, it is the betrayal that cuts the deepest into your soul.


Sandi,

And again, wisdom is flowing freely from your keyboard.
I have forgiven my W for the A. But I only just now realized that I have NOT forgiven her for the betrayal. THAT is exactly what is at the root of the anger swirling around in my head. The lies, deceit and betrayal; THAT is what makes me angry and I now understand that I have not forgiven for that. It didn't occur to me that it was something separate. But I see that it is. At least for me.

I guess being able to forgive for the betrayal is something that I will have to work on. Why is that separate from the act of the A I wonder? I found it "easy" to forgive for the A but I know as I sit here typing this that I'm pissed as hell about the betrayal and I don't know how to forgive her for that.

Does she see the pain of the A in my eyes? Does it stand between us? Yes, absolutely. Is she afraid of being rejected now by me? Yes, probably. Have I told her that I don't know if I can ever get over this? Sadly, yes. Does this cause her to feel hopeless? Probably. Can I expect her to be able to heal us and herself it this is what I give her? Probably not.

I'm going to have to tell her, and discuss w MC, what exactly I need. I HAVE expected her to figure out what I need (after all, I figured out what she needed in a H) but I guess that isn't fair. I need to step up to the plate, tell her what I need and then see if she does it.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
[quote]
If the MC, or no other source, has relayed how she has to step up and do some heavy lifting now..........can you really expect her to just know it? Sure, it may seem very obvious to you.......just logical, right? Maybe not so much to her, especially if you were always the one pursuing in the MR. If that was always the pattern, and she has not been given a map to follow in this process.........she could be misreading what she sees in you.


I guess I'm lost here. What SHOULD I be expecting my W to be doing? Is it different in every relationship based on what I perceive my needs to be? Are there more universal things (NC)? I feel very much out of place right now; like I don't have a plan. With pre piecing DB, I had a very clear path to follow. I had 37 rules to adhere to. But what about now?
Here's what I have done.

1. NC. She's not had any contact with OM. She has continued to speak with his W via text and FB off and on over these months. Since getting back on FB, she has visited OM's FB training group page as recent as yesterday.
2. Transparency plan. I initially had an iPod touch that I would occasionally check up on. I gave that back to her in July when she complained about having no privacy and about me potentially reading private conversations with her friends that have nothing to do with our issues. I gave it back because I was mad and felt like I didn't care anymore.

Aside from that, there is not much I asked of her. Mainly because I didn't know what else to ask. As for what I've been doing, I've continued to work on my issues. I've worked on speaking ALL 5 love languages to her and made sure to pay attention to her primary love language. We've gone to MC and IC. I've been participating in her activities with her. I've taken an interest in her affairs (family, work, etc).

I very much get the feeling that she just wants me to stop hurting and to get on with building a new life. But the pain doesn't just go away. It lingers and will continue to linger. It impairs my ability to get close to her and to reconnect with her.


Me: 48 y/o
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Together: > 20 yrs
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Hi LiM,

great discussion developing on your thread. Sandi is pouring gold in every post she posts.

If I may, I'd like to offer my 2 cents. I think that you trying to speak ALL love languages to your wife is a mistake, think of it as if someone would speak a mixture of English, Spanish, Russian, German and Greek to you. You would be utterly clueless what they were trying to convey.

And perhaps it would not hurt to have a couple of individual IC sessions possibly with the same C that you do MC with. Perhaps he will equip you with the tools to help you get over the issues.

Stay strong brother...

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So I sat down yesterday and had a talk with my W about her FB activities. I had decided that I could be angry, and convey that anger, or I could tell her how it makes me feel when she does stuff like that. I took the latter approach.
It was stil not well received. ANYTHING that I suggest to her is going to immediately be met with resentment and that makes it hard for me to confront her when I know she's not doing what she should be doing. But I manned up and did it anyways. It went as expected (not well received). And we didn't even get around to talking about the SnapChat stuff. Our talk got cut short because we had to deal with some teenager issues. But now 24 hours later, she has told me that she has deactivated her FB and SnapChat accounts. I didn't ask her to do either of those. She says that it is hard for her to accept any suggestion or advice from me but she knows that it best for her to be off of those services. I agree and I'm glad that she got to that decision on her own. We have MC tomorrow and I'm sure we'll discuss these things.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
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That is good news! I'd be doing cartwheels!


Me54 WH48
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M 22 T 24
EA-PA-EA 2011-2015
Separated 10/14 - 06/15
BD1 02/14
BD2 05/16
BD3 08/21/16 and began drinking again
Working on me and liking me again


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LiM:

I haven't posted in quite a while, but I've been following your sitch because it mirrors mine.

I have the same emotions as you do. Most people would envy my situation, a heavily remorseful spouse that would do anything to make the marriage work. I think I need to create my own thread on here about piecing as well.

The last MC session we had, I nearly ended our marriage. I've changed so much since my wife's affair. I'm becoming the man she wants now - in these last 7 months, I've switched jobs, lost a ton of weight, changed my hair style, gained a ton of muscle, and through therapy I've become a changed human being.

Yet, I've found through this improvement that I may now have different feelings about my wife. She still works with OM - something which I strongly still object to, yet if she were to quit, I would likely find something else to complain about. She also had snap chat and what's app on her old phone - I know what they were there for. I have thoughts that OM wasn't the only one. She just got caught and cleaned up her act.

The other night we went out and she was probably the hottest woman in the club - and all I could do is look at her as "damaged goods".

When we kiss, 7 months later, I wonder how her and OM kissed. When we're being sexually active, I wonder if they were in this or that position. Is it going away? Yes, but not fast enough for my tastes.

She's been clean and transparent since day one. The only thing I found was a quick google and facebook search of OM - I found out by snooping thru her phone one night, something I haven't done in months. She says he closed his FB account as soon as I busted them, for fear of me outing him. She wanted to see if it was still up. She owned it, felt awful, brought it up in MC and admitted she still needs to work on her boundaries. In the grand scheme of things, it was a slip up.

My wife doesn't know that I know every little detail about him, who his wife is, her phone number, where she works. I want to confront her so bad - something I should've done the second I discovered the affair. I kept quiet, and I think that's been one of the biggest mistakes I've made.

I'm blabbing here, LiM - but I feel the need to let you know I have the same exact feelings you do. There are days I'm so incredibly happy with her and we do things that I've always wanted to do, such as breakfasts at nice little hole in the walls, quiet dinners alone or with other couples. People who know we went through this are looking at us as recovering and are rooting for us. But sometimes it feels so fake, like I'm just doing all this to put on this act....and in the end, will it all be worth it...is there some other shoe waiting to drop? Will some other skeleton come forward? Or worse yet, will I eventually tire of the recovery and just say forget it, we tried, lets part?

Or will we eventually move on from her affair and in 10 years look back on this as a huge wake up call.

I just don't know.


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Originally Posted By: Stormchaser

My wife doesn't know that I know every little detail about him, who his wife is, her phone number, where she works. I want to confront her so bad - something I should've done the second I discovered the affair. I kept quiet, and I think that's been one of the biggest mistakes I've made.


What would doing this now accomplish for you? Would it make you feel good in the short term to "hurt" OM in the same way he hurt you? I imagine it would feel really good. For a minute. Its like taking revenge. Sweet, sweet revenge on that POS. But in the process, you would expose his W to the same pain you've felt. And what harm would it potentially do to your R? Just some things to consider.

What happened in your MC that made you feel like you wanted to end it all?

This all so hard. We fight with everything we have to get our WW back but when we do, we wonder if that's what we really want. If we did the work we were supposed to be doing on ourselves, we, the LBS, are now a significantly improved person and we feel like we deserve better. Why would we want to stay with someone that has done something so horrific to us? Its natural.

I just have to remember that my W lost her F'ing mind in all of this. The damage that the wayward does to themselves is so significant that they can't just pop right back into normal reality. They struggle and stumble. They not only have to come to grips with what they did to their M but also what they did to themselves. I see now that this happened because she had practically no sense of self worth. She was looking for someone to give it to her and in the process gave away what tiny bit of worth that she did have for herself. Its actually very sad to think what she did to herself.

As for me, I had a LOT of 180's to make. I've not been the husband or father to my family that I should have been for a very long time. I thought I was doing everything in my power to provide for my family the way they needed. But I wasn't even coming close. My W struggled through almost 20 years of M with a husband that was emotionally absent. I loved her an my daughters more than anything. But I never took the time to show it.
Is that an excuse to have an A? Of course not. There were LOTS of healthy things she could have done to get my attention. She could have grabbed me by the hair and dragged me into MC to tell me how miserable she was. She didn't. She just gave up.
Despite that, I clearly know the role I played in the mess that was our M. No one on earth would fault me for walking out at this point. She's done the unthinkable. But I feel like I owe it to her to give her a shot at a life with the NEW LiM. It incredibly painful to stay and to deal with her issues as she continues to struggle. But for right now, I'm willing to stay and fight for that. I might feel differently in 5 minutes. Its a horrible cycle that I go back and forth between: Stay vs Go vs Stay vs Go.
In the end, if I stay, she may come to love me more than she ever has before because I chose to stay. And that could be a very good thing for the both of us.


Me: 48 y/o
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Quote:
What would doing this now accomplish for you? Would it make you feel good in the short term to "hurt" OM in the same way he hurt you? I imagine it would feel really good. For a minute. Its like taking revenge. Sweet, sweet revenge on that POS. But in the process, you would expose his W to the same pain you've felt. And what harm would it potentially do to your R? Just some things to consider.


I have a weird philosophy about this. Yes, this is perhaps one of the greatest emotional upheavals anyone can go through. So much so that I think married people SHOULD experience this pain, if only for a day, to see what us betrayed go through every single day. Not saying they should all be cheated on, but simply experience this kind of emotional torture and say, "THIS is what its like to be cheated on". The nightmares, the racing thoughts, the soul wrenching ache that you can't wish away and can't medicate away.

So yes, I would want her to experience exactly what I'm going through. [censored] to be me, [censored] to be you. Sorry for being so cold hearted.

My IC helped explain and paint out a possible scenario: Right now, my W is still horribly embarrassed and humbled and depressed and anxious and takes to the bed for days when I bring up her affair. Imagine if OM's W confronted my W and it went haywire. Too many what if scenarios. There's too much potential for far reaching destruction. TxHubby's wife was practically suicidal upon being caught, and my wife wasn't too far away. She locked herself away in a hotel room and drank herself numb for days. If OM's W decided to raise hell, she could. W could possibly suicide. I just don't know what would happen, but I know it wouldn't be good.

Quote:
What happened in your MC that made you feel like you wanted to end it all?


The MC made a comment about focusing on the future and how much I constantly dwell on the past. She was trying to be positive about all the strides we've made. I made a small comment about how I still don't like the work environment. My W started with "I don't know what else I can do if you keep bringing it up", to which I started to lose my temper. I tried holding back and said, "well, the fact you still work together is a constant reminder for me, so how am I supposed to focus on any future when I have a constant reminder of a place where your CRAPPY BOUNDARIES AND HORRIBLE DECISIONS DESTROYED A 3O YEAR MARRIAGE.."

The marriage counselor told me to be quiet, and I turned to HER and said, "AND YOUR CRAPPY ADVICE AT THE BEGINNING, telling me to not tell his wife, was probably the worst advice I've ever heard. Every infidelity book and forum says affairs need to be exposed, and my dumbass listened to YOU." Then I looked at my wife and said, "If you had ANY MORAL FIBER


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Computer burp.

I said, "if you had ANY MORAL FIBER, you would've quit the damn job immediately. I would NEVER put you through the same torture I'm going through. I would've quit out of respect for you. But nooOOOoo (yeah, I really said that), you elect to stay there as an in-your-face reminder. So, tell me ladies, how do I move past a daily trigger?"

I had to leave and wait outside the office until I calmed down. My wife was crying, one of those deep, deep sobs, saying she's had enough, can't deal with my outbursts, we tried, etc etc. I went back in and agreed with her, maybe this isn't going to work, and lets call it a marriage. Of course, it was at the end of the session and our MC said, "well, lets wrap this up and talk about this next week". We're both like, if there WILL be a next week.

And sure enough, after a few days, we got back to talking civilly, had a nice breakfast down the beach and have been doing fine since.

Stay vs Go. Not a daily thought - an hourly thought. Its purgatory, I tell ya.


Me: 52
Her: 48
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I get it. There's a part of you that wants to see your W suffer. To see the OM suffer. To see them squirm in pain. The same pain you say you feel. So let me ask you, how much is enough pain for them to suffer? Do you want them dead? Would that help?

The point is, there is going to have to be a point where you have to put your ego aside a bit in order to move forward. What can your W do for you that will at least get you started with healing? Unfortunately it will have to take alot of give and take on your part and she will not be telling you all of the truth at once. It's just how As are.


M-43 W-40
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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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I agree with MrBond. And no, not every book/forum recommends outing the A. And there is a chance that it would not have made a difference anyway (that was the case in my situation).

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Storm,

You are angry. You have every right to by. Someone popped by and told me that 6-9 months after BD, we start a new phase where anger becomes our primary emotion. We become angry and irritable. We start putting back on some of the weight we lost. That's all true for me. Thanks to Sandi, I realized that I forgave my W for the A but I hadn't yet forgiven my W for the deceit and the betrayal. THAT is what makes me so angry; the betrayal. How could she possibly do this to me? To us? No decent, moral, rational person would make to decision to do what our spouses have done. While I believe my W is decent and moral, she certainly wasn't being rational. She was not in her right mind. She had lost her mind. And yours did too.

I disagree that most resources recommend exposing the A. You should certainly call your spouse out on it but beyond that, I think the general recommendation is to leave it alone and let the A die out on its own (which it almost always does). The advice is that if YOU are the one to force an end to the A by exposing it that you will become even more vilified and that if saving your M is your goal, doing so will work against you.

It really is unfair. All our spouses can do is be sorry. WE have to do the work to get over the insult that has been dealt to us. TxHubby talks about having to eat $h!t sandwiches in order to move forward. That means we have to put our ego's, anger and resentment aside and be willing to focus on the promise of the future. That is HARD. I hate it and want to run from it. But for right now, I'm choosing to stay.

As I mentioned previously, my W closed her FB account after I called her out for looking at OM's training group page on FB. 10 times over a couple of days. She closed it without me asking and I think that was a very good move. But then I saw a text message that she sent to her sister and she told her that she closed her FB account because it was "too stressful for me." What a load of crock. She's off FB because SHE can't behave properly on FB; not because its stressing me out. Even thought the A is dead, the lies she is telling to herself and others still continue. It will be a long hard road.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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So I'm about 6 months into piecing now. I'm really trying to take it one day at a time. We're both in IC and also MC. I'm readying tons of books and working on speaking my W's love languages. I'm trying to let myself be vulnerable and humble and to always remember that I am not perfect and that I chose to forgive. Despite that, I've had 1 foot out the door all Summer. Its been rough for me.

Here's a new one. My W is competing in her first real triathlon race since the A ended. She has a special suit that the athletes wear during the race. Her name was screen printed on it. I guess usually its just the last name that goes on the uniform (not first name). She showed me a picture of it tonight. It her her maiden name and our last name. No hyphen or anything.
She has never used her maiden name. She's never been a "hyphenated" person. Her bachelors and masters degrees MIGHT have her maiden name on them but I'm not certain. She's always just been Mrs. LiM.
I don't consider myself sexist. In fact, quite the opposite. But am I a little bit traditional? Ya, I am.
Here's the thing. This really hurts my feeling. A LOT!
20 years of M and A and NOW you wants to start using your maiden name!?
What does this mean? Why now? Is this a sign of continuing rebellion or am I making a big deal out of nothing? Should I put on my big boy pants and stop letting this hurt my feelings?

More and more, I just feel like my W is not what I want in a M partner. Maybe she hasn't been for a long time and I just didn't see it.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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LiM,

What I would not give to be in your shoes. Please be patient. This is not your old M anymore. This is a new M for you and your W. I suggest you give it time and maybe ask yourself that question in the future again, maybe 3 months from now, maybe again in 6 months. Not sure how many times you should ask if this is the M you want, only you know the answer to that question. It may change for the better, worse, or stay the same. No one knows. Only you can make the choice on whether you want to be in this new M or not.

I can tell you this, I, like many others have read save your marriage books, psychology books, self help/improvement books, to learn and grow as much as possible.

H3ll, I have even read books on open marriage and polyamory. Life is too short. Maybe I am overanalyzing, but I am trying to open my mind to numerous possibilities if my STBX ever wants to bring up a conversation on having all 7 of us living under the same roof again.

The funny thing is, even with all my outrageous research on different relationships, they all have the same message (whether you are in a monogamous R, or some other type of R). The message is the same, communication, honesty, and openness. The more expectations you put on your S, friend, acquaintance, or whoever, and those expectations are not met, the more strain it puts on the R and will most likely fizzle out and/or fail.

Do not rely on your W to make you happy. Rejoice and support her in her happiness, whether she is with you or not, that is unconditional love.


H-46 XW-38 T-7 M-6
S-9,8,8,6,4
S 11/30/15, I filed 12/8/15
EA 2/1/16 D dismissed 3/24/16
PA 3/18/16 confirmed 4/22/16
XW files for D 4/1/16 - D final 11/17/16
Finally moving forward...
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Originally Posted By: LiM
So I'm about 6 months into piecing now. I'm really trying to take it one day at a time. We're both in IC and also MC. I'm readying tons of books and working on speaking my W's love languages. I'm trying to let myself be vulnerable and humble and to always remember that I am not perfect and that I chose to forgive. Despite that, I've had 1 foot out the door all Summer. Its been rough for me.

Here's a new one. My W is competing in her first real triathlon race since the A ended. She has a special suit that the athletes wear during the race. Her name was screen printed on it. I guess usually its just the last name that goes on the uniform (not first name). She showed me a picture of it tonight. It her her maiden name and our last name. No hyphen or anything.
She has never used her maiden name. She's never been a "hyphenated" person. Her bachelors and masters degrees MIGHT have her maiden name on them but I'm not certain. She's always just been Mrs. LiM.
I don't consider myself sexist. In fact, quite the opposite. But am I a little bit traditional? Ya, I am.
Here's the thing. This really hurts my feeling. A LOT!
20 years of M and A and NOW you wants to start using your maiden name!?
What does this mean? Why now? Is this a sign of continuing rebellion or am I making a big deal out of nothing? Should I put on my big boy pants and stop letting this hurt my feelings?

More and more, I just feel like my W is not what I want in a M partner. Maybe she hasn't been for a long time and I just didn't see it.


(((Lim)))

Oh buddy, I feel your pain, you know I do!!! I am 18 months into piecing and I still have similar feelings and ask myself those same questions! I promise that over time the intense emotions will fade. The triggers may be there but they won't get you as hard. That is with any crisis in life.

You are doing everything you can do, so try and give yourself some credit for that. Perhaps would it behoove you to do less working on the M? If the majority of your thoughts are on the M, the A, and piecing then when does your mind get a rest? Just focusing on how to solve it will not solve it. Time must also pass for healing to take place, as with any wound. Are you also making sure to do fun things, spend time with other people, and continue your GAL? I think piecing is the best time to start new hobbies and make different plans for the future, and it gives a sense of hope.

I don't know what to say about the name issue. Is it you looking for something else to be angry about? Is there more to it? I have no idea. What's more important is how you respond. Give yourself time to process, think, and don't make assumptions before addressing her.

(((Lim)))

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Originally Posted By: LiM


It her her maiden name and our last name. No hyphen or anything.
She has never used her maiden name. She's never been a "hyphenated" person. Her bachelors and masters degrees MIGHT have her maiden name on them but I'm not certain. She's always just been Mrs. LiM.

What does this mean? Why now? Is this a sign of continuing rebellion or am I making a big deal out of nothing? Should I put on my big boy pants and stop letting this hurt my feelings?

More and more, I just feel like my W is not what I want in a M partner. Maybe she hasn't been for a long time and I just didn't see it.


It's the name her father gave her, the name she was born with, and the name she eschewed to take on yours. The A was not your fault, you know this, but she went on her journey - it was her journey. She came out on some other side and decided for her GAL that she would run a Tri!!! And proudly wearing then name the two greatest families in her life gave her - her father's and mother's and yours. Perspective Lim, perspective please, her running this Tri in that shirt is not about you. Be proud of her for running this Tri, do not drop a turd on her before this by you drama queening all over her shirt. You have done eleventy billion Tri's in your head and your heart while DB'ing into and back out of D apocalypse for you to act like a simple traditional dude at this point. Your line in the sand for telling her take the slow road to Hll forever was not her going on an A excursion, but it is her using her birth name on a shirt?

Like JimKao said, "to be in your shoes" - c'mon brother, I want to cheer you to your finish line, so you go cheer her towards hers.


"There is no more important fight than the one for ourselves. Keep on winning." Ginger1, Read her newbies.
BD: Feb '16
D: Mar '17
Piecing: Putting the self back together was my piecing.
S6


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I can't speak for your wife, but I'm of a similar age and I've been married a similar time, and I can tell you that about 5 years ago, I started to really wish I'd kept my maiden name.

It has absolutely nothing to do with my H or how much I love him or my level of commitment to our marriage.

It has everything to do with feeling like if I scratch beneath the surface, I AM my maiden name in a way that I AM NOT my married name.

That probably sounds crazy to someone who hasn't had to change his name as an adult. And I've used my married name longer than my maiden name.

I think for me, part of the realization had to do with meeting more and more families where the parents had separate last names and seeing that the world didn't fall apart.

Now, when people ask, I encourage them to keep their maiden name.

Again, nothing to do with my H. I hope to be holding his hand into our 90s.


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16
H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
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Originally Posted By: LiM
She's always just been Mrs. LiM.


LiM,

I think the issue is that LiM is a terrible last name. It's only three letters long and two of the letters are capitalized. I'd never want to be known as Mrs. LiM.

On the other hand, a name like Mrs. doodler has an air of sophistication and refinement. And, if you speak Pig Latin, doodler becomes oodlerda; that has a special ring to it, doesn't it? Compare that with iMLa; it's entirely nondescript.

So, Mr. LiM is it any wonder your wife wants to middle-ize her maiden name?

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doodler, LOL, you fool, haha!

I never changed my last name but probably because my H's last name is longer and I like the way my last name sounds more. That's it. However it would be nice to have the same last name as my kids. For me, my last name, whether I change it or not, doesn't affect my feelings toward H.

Lim, is this more about the name or more about your questioning her commitment to you? I think it's normal in piecing to look for anything and everything that could be defined as a breach of trust. What does your gut tell you?

Blu


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I'm headed off to the court house to change our names to Mr and Ms Doodler right now! I think it is exactly what we need!

Thanks for the 2x4's guys. This is a hard one for me but I guess its something I've got to give on. I actually consider myself a feminist. I wholly support women being treated as equals. In fact, I wish to God that women would be in charge of running the worlds governments. The world would be such a nicer place.
But for whatever reason, it has always been important to me that my W have my name. It means a lot to me.
She's always fought to maintain an independence that I never sought to take from her. I want a strong, independent woman in my life. But at the same time, I want to feel needed and appreciated. My W was taught by her grandfather to never "need" a man. And I think that is a good thing. But I just feel like there has always been the barrier between us because of this. We left our families, became adults and married to become a single, cohesive unit. That doesn't mean that we can't have our own identities, friends and activities. But having the same last name was just always important for me.
Is it worth it to throw 20 years of M in the trash because of this? Of course not. It just when you pile everything up, I feel I can't do it anymore. I've bent over backwards to make this easy for her. Probably too easy.

Blu, its hard for me to read about the struggles that you are still facing when you are a year ahead of me in all this. We are struggling with the exact same feelings. So how much longer do I have to sit in this pile of $h!t? I hate it. I can't stand it. I want it to stop. I'm tired of being nauseated. I'm tired of being sad and miserable.

GAL? Well, not much to it. I still work out most everyday but I don't do anything else. I participate with my W in her activities because that is important to her and I was neglectful of that in the past. The problem is that I don't want to do anything else. I want to work on repairing my M but I'm miserable most all of the time. I love my W and I want to get that special feeling back. But its not coming and I'm afraid its never going to come.
I guess I need to force myself to get out there and start doing something for me.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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Had a talk with my W last week (after the feedback I received here) about her using her maiden name. I was not angry and just told her that it hurts my feelings. She told me I was a jerk and that I need to get with the times. We talked for a while, I cried, and she eventually apologized for doing that without discussing it with me first. She said it was not right of her to do it without talking to me about it. The next morning, she sent me a text message saying that she was still sorry for doing that.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about it and I've decided that I will talk to her tonight and tell her that I'm ok with her using whatever name she wishes and that I will not be upset about it. I will tell her that I will support her, love her and be proud of her no matter what name is listed on her outfit.

Drove to a neighboring state this weekend for my W to compete in her triathlon. We had a pretty good weekend and my W appreciated me being there to support her. During our talk the other night, she told me that "they" (OM and his W) would be there and suggested that we not go to the race. I told her that we absolutely would go to the race. A friend had told her that they would be there. I ended up seeing OM and his W. I turned around at one point and saw OM's W walking by. She waved at me and I waved back. I was worried that she would approach me and try to talk to me but she didn't. And thankfully, OM didn't come anywhere near me. That was rough but I feel like I did ok with it even though they ended up sitting down about 30 yards away from me.

I know I've got to start focusing on the positive stuff we have going on in our lives and to stop dwelling so much on the negative and the pain. I know I've also got to get back to focusing on me more and doing some more for GAL.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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Lim,

I wrote this to cbtdad, but I think it applies to you too..

Originally Posted By: Coconut
Your S is your life, you do anything for him, enjoy spending time with him, but he is not your passion. I'm not saying you shouldn't find happiness in being with or taking care of your son, but he should see your passion for life outside of him, that's how he will learn to find happiness in life himself.

Happiness is found from within, passion makes a person ooze with happiness... If you find a passion, your focus will shift from looking at your MR to find happiness, and you will bring happiness into your MR. Your W will see your happiness, she will be attracted to your happiness, she will want to share in that happiness with you.

It's not easy to find passion, I look back at my life and see different passions at different times. Once I found passion in working out, it is no longer a passion for me, now I just do it and am happy I do it, but I'm not passionate about it. I was once passionate about volleyball, but now it's just fun, I don't wait in anticipation for the next game. Other passions I've once had that are now just fun are fishing, modifying cars, jai alai, mountain biking, bowling, etc..

I don't have a passion right now, I know I need one, I keep trying new things so I can find one, I want something that I desire to do and become the best I can be at it. You need to find a passion to bud, we all need our own passion in life.

I'm not going to comment on your comments to W, but I believe it demonstrates that you are angry because you are not getting what you want from someone else to make you happy. You can't control what she does, so you gotta find your happiness somewhere that you can control, inside yourself.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
01/10/18 - D Finalized
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Thanks coconut,

Its amazing the insight members of this board are able to have into each other just based on the things we write here. Its like you know me better than I know myself.
You are correct; I have no passion. I feel like my ability to have passion about anything in life has been taken away from me. There really isn't anything I care strongly about any more. I've just stopped caring.
I used to be passionate about my job; the company I founded; the product I developed and patented. Now I resent my job and wish I could walk away from it but I can't.
My W is passionate about her triathlon stuff and I resent that. I resent how it took her away from our family, physically and emotionally. I resent that the sport introduced her to OM.
Its like I've come to resent being passionate about things because my experience is that doing so causes pain.

I could become passionate about something. There are things I would like to do or become more involved in. But my fear is that if I find happiness outside of my M, then I won't want my M anymore. Instead of deriving happiness and excitement from being passionate about my M, I will find that I get potentially more happiness and excitement from things outside my M. I'm afraid that if I have that external pleasure, I'll look back at my M as only a source of pain and will then choose not to stay in the M.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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Hi LIM

I am so sorry for your struggles. I remember reading how even if your WS does decide to come back, that the real battle is piecing.

I don't see how anyone would not feel resentful and depressed and question the potential for future happiness by piecing together a marriage in which there was betrayal.

I can't really give you any advice regarding piecing. But i can tell you this...

The other alternative is filled with difficulties as well. The divorce process [censored] and leads to the same feelings of loss of hope and passion and depression. Meeting someone new and getting some attention only left me with some temporary ego gratification, but the reality is my son has no family unit. And the anger is there regardless, in addition to the mourning.

There's no easy path I guess. I'm sorry your going through this.


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H: 43
Twins age 5
WAH in summer
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Originally Posted By: LiM
I could become passionate about something. There are things I would like to do or become more involved in. But my fear is that if I find happiness outside of my M, then I won't want my M anymore. Instead of deriving happiness and excitement from being passionate about my M, I will find that I get potentially more happiness and excitement from things outside my M. I'm afraid that if I have that external pleasure, I'll look back at my M as only a source of pain and will then choose not to stay in the M.


LiM,

You're in a bad place right now and I have no idea what to recommend. What I usually do when when I don't have any good advice is I ask myself this question, "What would Captain Kirk do?" That's when I realized, Captain Kirk wouldn't have any advice for you either, he'd just reach out and slap your silly @ss. You've seen Star Trek, you know how it works, a good slapping and then everything is good again. So, my advice is, get someone to slap you around so you can clear your head and go on to new adventures (sans any alien nooky).

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Originally Posted By: LiM


I could become passionate about something. There are things I would like to do or become more involved in. But my fear is that if I find happiness outside of my M, then I won't want my M anymore. Instead of deriving happiness and excitement from being passionate about my M, I will find that I get potentially more happiness and excitement from things outside my M. I'm afraid that if I have that external pleasure, I'll look back at my M as only a source of pain and will then choose not to stay in the M.


Forget the 2x4, I'm swinging a 50 foot steel I-beam at your head...

If you ever decide that you don't want your M that is ok.. But damn man, being miserable so that you wont want your M to end isn't the way to go. Go out and find yourself, feed your soul and find your happiness.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
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Passion is like food, not like alcohol. Yes, people can go overboard with passion, but you have to learn to find a healthy level of passion. You can't be a passion teetotaler.

Sometimes, when my H is doing a GAL activity, I have a moment of fear. And then I whack myself and remember that if he will only stay in the marriage if he has no life, that's not healthy or good for either of us.


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16
H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
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Ok, message received. Buying a tent today and I intend to go camping in short order. I always enjoyed camping when I was younger so I'm going to get out and do that again. Maybe even teach myself to start a fire without matches.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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Camping is great for the soul. Outstanding GAL resolution, LiM. I'm no expert and would give a lot to be be piecing, but I really think developing and experiencing things you're passionate can only help your situation, not hurt it.


Me: 46
W: 44
Married: 17
Together 21
D13; S10
BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you)
Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage
Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
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Man, I love camping.. what part of the US / World are you from?
Let me know if you need any suggestions on what to buy or places to go. Also, just as a thought, if you are in the US and haven't been camping for awhile, you may want to consider renting a cabin at a KOA, they are very basic cabins but allow you to go camping without actually sleeping in a tent.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
01/10/18 - D Finalized
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I'm in Texas and we have a ton of state parks that are very close by. I have a very large tent but its too big for just me. Gonna buy a smaller 3 person tent just big enough for me and my dog. For the first time in my life, I have a dog that won't run off on his own. He will stay with me so I feel much more comfortable taking him with me. I already have everything else I need. Will probably take a fishing pole along too. Cant go this coming weekend but will go next weekend. Temp should be perfect.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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LiM,

Have a gameplan of things to do, or a book to read. Your mind will wander. Keep it busy. It's ok to gain persepective on the relationship when GAL; just don't make it anywhere near your focus.

Your focus should be on what you're grateful for, what you want to accomplish in the future by yourself, and being in the moment.


M46, EXWW46
M15 T17
D20, S19, D13
M - Addiction since 1998
W EA/PA #1 2013/2014
W EA #2 June 2015...
BD 1 Big D talk 9/15
BD 2 - EA/PA disc 10/30/15
Served D 1/22/16
Divorced 5/25/16 (yes, that fast!)
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We had an unfortunate event this weekend that came out of nowhere and I don't even know where to begin thinking about what this does for our future. I was assaulted my my father in law. My W and I along with our 2 daughters were visiting my MIL and FIL at their house 5 hours away from our city. These are people I've know for over 20 years and have had a very good R with. I consider myself very lucky to have the extended family that I M into.
On Saturday evening, my FIL started getting very irate after discovering that some of the kids (1 of my daughters was included) got some nail polish remover on the dining table an apparently it damaged the finish somewhat. I don't think it was very bad because it wasn't noticeable to my W. However, my FIL flew off the handle and started yelling and cussing in the living room where I was sitting on the couch. At first I didn't realize that he was yelling AT me until my sister in law came to try and calm him down by saying "Its wasn't just LiM's kids, it was mine too so you need to lay off LiM." It was only then that I realized he was directing his anger at me. He can be a hot head but I have NEVER seen him like this. Then he started pointing at some other table in the living room to indicate there was damage on it and that I was responsible (I was not). The yelling and cussing kept increasing so I stood up and said "I'm not going to sit here and let you talk to me like this" and started to walk out of the room. That's when he grabbed me by the neck the first time.
This brought more people into the room that got between us (I didn't lay a hand on him). He indicated that he wanted me to go outside so he could talk to me. I did. He started pointing at some items laying around on the table on the patio. One item was a beer bottle. I am normally pretty good about picking up after myself but this was my beer bottle. I said, "Yes FIL, that is mine. I'm sorry, I'll clean it up." Next he pointed at some party hats that some of the kids (mine NOT included in that) had been wearing earlier in the day. I said I don't know who's those are. He then pointed at something else that he wanted me to take responsibility for but that wasn't mine either. The barrage of yelling and cussing continued and he grabbed me by the shirt. I pulled him off and walked in the house to leave. He yelled something else about not allowing people in his if it was going to be "treated" like that. I said "Thats fine, you can be alone because we are leaving. That's when he rushed me and grabbed me by the neck again. Drew blood this time from a scratch he caused. It took about 5 people to get him off of me. I never laid a hand on him.
Mind you, there are sometimes 10 or more grandkids in the house with ages ranging from 6 mo to 18 and everything in between. There were VERY young kids present during all of this, including my own.
We packed our stuff and were out of the house in under 5 minutes. My sister in law and her family also left with their 3 children.

I know there aren't any decision to be made today. I mainly just needed to vent. I've already forgiven my FIL and told my kids that I am not angry at him. But he is not the type of person to admit when he is wrong and do whatever is necessary to right a wrong. And so what if he doesn't apologize? What if he expects me to apologize? I would of course pay for any damage my kids caused but I will not tolerate being spoken to that way or assaulted. What if I'm not allowed back in their house? Will my W still go there with my kids? Am I supposed to be ok with that? I know what my response would be if one of my family members had treated my W that way.
So far, my W hasn't said anything to indicate that she is angry with me or blames me. But if her dad said "Its LiM or Me", I have no doubt my W would choose her dad. Maybe not but that's my fear.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all pans out. Maybe he'll apologize and we can go back to being a family.


Me: 48 y/o
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Why would your W say it's your fault? It seems like everyone saw it was his.I don't know why you would think this would jeopardize your M.

In any event, this is where your DB training should come in. You're dealing with an unrepentant person. What do you do?


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That's one crazy azz story, LiM.

I truly believe your W should side with you. Did she see the outburst first hand? Where was your W in all this?


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Yes, crazy indeed. Like my W having an A, this is not anything I could have ever imagined happening.
My W wasn't standing there when he grabbed me the first time as I was trying to leave the room. She was in the next room and heard everything he said. My SIL was standing right next to me when he grabbed me. My W was present when he grabbed me the final time and is one of the people that pulled him off of me.

I don't know that my FIL will be unrepentant and I don't know that my W would "take his side" but if history is any guide, he will not be repentant and if forced to choose between me and her father (even while admitting that he was in the wrong) I feel she would choose him. That is my (probably irrational) fear.

What do I do with a person like this? Nothing really. All I can do is enforce a boundary that says I will not allow anyone to treat me, or a member of MY family, with that level of hostility and disrespect. And if that means I don't go there anymore, then that is what it means.


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LiM,

Forgiving him doesn't mean you have to ever go back.

From your recollection of events, you were assaulted. More than once. I would never see him again, or if he's in the same room, I would want others around.

This is for your personal safety.

This would also mean protecting your family. I wouldn't want my kids to see this type of person in their life, thinking it's allowed, or 'normal'.

The sticky widget is that it's your FIL.

Your wife will need to tell you how she feels about this. I think this needs to be talked about in a MC session, and have the counselor show wife how out of control/unacceptable her father's behavior was. You saying it won't work, unless she has already expressed that.

Just the thoughts on the top of my head.

Remember, if you did ANYTHING to contribute, please own up to it, and when people ask, be the bigger man, and apologize for your contributions.

That story is absolutely nuts.


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Originally Posted By: trumpet

Remember, if you did ANYTHING to contribute, please own up to it, and when people ask, be the bigger man, and apologize for your contributions.

That story is absolutely nuts.


If this had occurred with the "old" LiM, I certainly could have been responsible for aggravating the situation. But "new" LiM doesn't do that. I did nothing more than what I described. I'm still willing to apologize if he felt I (or my kids) had been disrespectful to his home or property but we have never allowed our kids to run wild in their home and have never bee unappreciative of their hospitality. This is squarely on him.

I imagine my W and I will discuss this in MC. Last night, my W did tell me that the "ball is NOT in OUR court" meaning that there is nothing for us to do at this point. It is up to her father to take steps repair this situation. I was encouraged to hear her use the word "OUR" because it makes me feel like she has my back. I wish should would express stronger support for me but I'll take what I can get.


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I have some good progress to report on this new insanity with my FIL. It has been very quite from my W's side of the family and it was very unnerving to me. And my W wasn't saying much about it at all. I knew she has been in contact with her siblings and mother but no one was saying much to me so of course, my mind was running wild with every dooms day scenario imaginable.
Apparently my brother in law confronted my FIL on Monday and really laid in to him about his behavior. I guess there had been some other unacceptable behavior; nothing like what happened to with me, but unacceptable none the less. So my BIL let him have it.
Yesterday, my MIL texted my W and told her that my FIL would be receptive if my W were to reach out by text. She did and he asked her to call him so she did. He basically told my W that there was "no excuse for what he did."

I still haven't heard from my FIL or received an apology but I'm feeling much better about things now. I'm sure he's horribly embarrassed about what he did and he needs time to figure out how to approach me and what he needs to say. I'm feeling much more confident that he will do what is needed to make amends.


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LiM,

Making amends is one thing - getting over the triggers and emotional baggage, another thing.

I would expect you not having any wants to see him for a while. He needs to see repercussions of actions, even if he makes amends. I would be scared to ever go back.

This is a test. Your wife is watching. You are probably making gigantic deposits into her emotional bank. You passed the test. There will be more. But man, you might have pulled the slot and hit the jackpot in regards to building emotional/relational currency with her.


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W EA #2 June 2015...
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Originally Posted By: trumpet
LiM,

Making amends is one thing - getting over the triggers and emotional baggage, another thing.

I would expect you not having any wants to see him for a while. He needs to see repercussions of actions, even if he makes amends. I would be scared to ever go back.

This is a test. Your wife is watching. You are probably making gigantic deposits into her emotional bank. You passed the test. There will be more. But man, you might have pulled the slot and hit the jackpot in regards to building emotional/relational currency with her.


I'm actually ok with what happened so long as my FIL is truly remorseful. I don't want or need some long, drawn out apology either. A sincere "I'm sorry" is all I need.

I'm actually quite proud of myself in how I dealt with the situation while it was happening and in my behavior since. I'm hoping that my W does see that the old me is truly dead and that she will be blown away by the person I now am. I'm hoping that does fill her love bank and make her proud to be my W. I've still felt a sense of reservation in her during this piecing process. Maybe this will help her to trust me more as I learn to trust her again as well.


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LIM,

I'm guessing that you are bigger and/or stronger than your FIL and that's why you didn't have to remove him from you yourself. Your inaction towards him will speak volumes with your family. You said you've had a great R with him for twenty years, if that's the case, and if you want him in your life, I wouldn't avoid him as so many are suggesting.

Maybe it's just me, but guys will be guys at times, he obviously was very angry, and for whatever reason you were his outlet, and guys sometimes react to anger with physical altercation. If you've had a good R with him, it's unlikely that this one altercation will change the over all R.

I say this from my experience with physical altercations with some good friends over the years. They were minor for the most part, a grab of the neck, a shove or two and push up against a wall. None of those R were damaged from these altercations, a good man to man talk to say our piece and move on from there.

If it happened a second time, then it would be a much bigger issue. I think a call to invite him for a beer in a week or two would be ok, lay out your boundary clearly letting him know you will not allow your kids to be around someone who acts like that, but that you love him and your R with him and you would like to continue that. 20 year R is a lot to end over what you describe.


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I agree, I'm not willing to throw away our entire history over this one event. I'm not really concerned it could happen again. It doesn't excuse his behavior but I think there are some things going on in his life and we've also learned that he's recently started testosterone replacement therapy. That certainly could have had something to do with it.
I'm thinking of sending him a text message today to say "FIL, I hate what happened between us but I want you to know that I love you and that you are a very important person in my life." That lets him know that I am open to talking to him and repairing our relationship without me excusing his behavior.


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LiM,

Nix the text message and go talk to him in person. You know, a beer and some guy talk. Tell him he was a bit scary at first, but then you thought you'd have to kick his old @ss. You'll both be laughing about it and it'll all be over.

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They live 5 hours away and right now they are at their "summer" cabin that is 9 hours away. My life is incredibly busy right now with work and family obligations. It would be really hard for me to drive all that way


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Originally Posted By: LiM
They live 5 hours away and right now they are at their "summer" cabin that is 9 hours away. My life is incredibly busy right now with work and family obligations. It would be really hard for me to drive all that way


Ok then, you call him and say, "You know, for an old guy you can be a scary mother f*cker..." Be sure to invite him over for beer and BBQ in the near future and tell him to leave the roids at home. It'll be good. Then you can put a nail in it and call it done.

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C-nut, I think I would recognize you walking down the street. Lol. I can actually picture you in my mind ... And I bet we are total opposites (well and I am a chick) but it's all good. So glad we leave politics far away from this site because I am purely of the left coast persuasion ....

(Now for some estrogen in the mix)

Lim, I think you are handling yourself and issue with your FIL very well. Perhaps it matters more how your W and kids experienced the sitch and will see your R with him moving forward. That is what I like about the DB philosophy in all Rs--we cannot control others but we can control ourselves and how we react.

Healthy and respectful boundaries are a must. Not so sure about all the neck grabbing and beer drinking, but after he apologizes you guys can all hug a tree together? Kidding. Sort of. But this guy has issues and I tend to think instead of sheilding kids from crazy behavior, better to lead by example so they will know how to handle these sort of things in the future. This also shows your W that you accept her family despite the problems. Ahhhh, inlaws, gotta love them.

Lim, you are a great and impressive role model for us all! (hopefully C-nut and doodler are taking notes :-)

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Blu,

If you weren't married I'd hit on you.

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Originally Posted By: doodler
Blu,

If you weren't married I'd hit on you.




You two go get your own thread shocked


Me: 48 y/o
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Lim,

Also be aware this could be a sign of a medical condition and your conversation with FIL should/could also include concern about his physical and mental condition.

Out of character and inappropriate (in front of children and involving his own children and daughters) anger and aggression in an older man (with reduced testosterone) isn't typical.

He MAY actually act remorseful and be remorseful as a way to further mask his own concerns and fears about what's going on with him. He doesn't want anyone else to catch on because being "ill" or "old" like that makes him feel less manly.

Then again, as everyone's brain's age, we all become a little mentally ill. Paranoia and anger are pretty normal signs of just aging that he needs to control and work to calm himself down. Old men love conspiracy theories for a reason and apparently your daughters and the nail remover fiasco was your plot to disrespect and destroy his property.

A careful boundary could include NOT meeting at his home where such paranoia can apparently be triggered. He apparently can't help keeping an keen eye on what you and your kids do in his house to his property. Avoid the trigger by simply not being around his property and everything will run much smoother and leaving a public place or other relative's home is a lot easier and more convenient that having to storm out of father in law's house.

If he's really contrite and apologetic (and you think he can do it appropriately). He could/should model it to his grandchildren and apologize to them.


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Me: 48 y/o
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Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
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