The Steel Beneath the Soft Exterior

[HaWho]

Link to my last thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2689943&page=1

Thank Lois and Ginger. Lois - we all have certain fears when this is dropped on our laps. Who wouldn't? And with kids in tow, it's all even more complicated. You should be so proud of yourself! As for your advice, we all impart our knowledge/bias based on what we've learned through this. I think we all try to protect and spare those coming behind us. Thanks!

Ginger - thank you again for the push. I do need to stand up for me just as I do for my kids. I need better boundaries, too. Still working on that. Thank you again for the reminder.

Well, this weekend I saw some interesting things. H showed several instances of kind gestures, mostly around food. He brought home yogurt and offered me some. I accepted. The next day, he offered it again. I ate some and he offered more. He offered me part of his smoothie. And, when we went to a pizza place as h was hungry (we were not) he put a slice of pizza on a plate and gave it to me without asking if I wanted it. I ate it but with all the feeding, I felt like he was fattening me up for the slaughter. Haha.

At one point we had to park the car in a garage. The instructions for getting out were taped near the exit (where h was supposed to punch in a key code) but instead h honked vigorously on the horn even though there was no one in the booth! Hence, the taped instructions. I really did feel like I was with a 17 year old. I stayed quiet and he figured it out. I did laugh (to myself) that he was staging a temper tantrum with a machine!

On several occasions he told us all a few stories about his childhood. They are recycled stories; I have heard them often. I listened again, but this time I categorically said "that is awful" or something similar. He then said "it really was."

He was talking about one loser his mother dated while he was young. This topic is on a loop and resurfaces frequently. He doesn't seem to be able to move past it??? I pushed a little and gave a super quick "adult" rationale that she dated him because she was in such a bad emotional place at that point in her life, hence that's the person she attracted and vice versa. (The kids were listening and I felt they needed an explanation.) After I gave my 2 cents, h said, kind of in a dismissive huff "yeah, that's the intellectual explanation." This is true, but, what I said was also very common sense. She just wasn't in a place to be a good mother.

Here's two more weirdo MLC stories. We were all discussing my niece (my sister's daughter), who is in medical school. H asked how she is surviving financially. I said she is poor like most medical students but survives better than most because her parents help. H said to the boys (straight from his kookoo M): "once you leave for college you are on your own. I won't help one bit." I have heard him repeat this nonsense before and sat quiet. I regretted it so this time I said to the boys: "no, as long as we are alive, we will help you so long as it does not hinder you for us to do so." I further clarified: if they are good kids, we will help. And if they fall on hard times at any point in their lives, so long as they are working hard (not as porn stars or dealing drugs, etc.) we'll help. I told them lots of people fall on hard times and that's what family/friends and yes, even money, is for!! H revised and seemed to "get it." That drivel is right from my "tough love" MIL. Can you imagine?? "I don't care if you are in medical school! I am not helping you!!"

Other story: s10 received a cool remote controlled copter. H was going to take him to the park to fly it. S10, too excited to wait 5 minutes, took it in the yard and accidentally flew it way off into a neighbor's yard. LOL! H came out and told him: "you can't fly that into someone's yard! You lose it for a week now!" I was not patient. I was exasperated. I said: "you can't punish him for a mistake! He is not going to lose it for a week! He's going to go get it and learn to fly it inside first." H just closed the door and went back inside. Just plain stupid. Hey, why don't we just beat him the remote control? That'll teach him.

So, I see him trying to parent. Unfortunately, I see and hear a lot of his mother in his parenting methodology. Is this normal? It's awful. Fortunately, he does defer to me whenever I intervene.

On the positive: he has been very aware of the kids and their schedules. He offers to do things with them and he seems much much more "present" much of the time. Last night at dinner, S10 asked h what his favorite part of his weekend was. His answer: "spending time with you two." Now, THAT is different from a year ago this time.

[HaWho]

Ciluzen- I missed your message and didn't respond in my above post. Sorry about that. Thanks so much for the very kind words! Right back 'atcha!

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, sorry I haven't posted much lately, but I do read along!

I agree with the advice you've been getting from others and I think you are right to assert yourself when you feel the need to do so. The 'medical school' moment sounded like a good one to intervene - particularly as you regretted not doing so before.

As the two of you are still parenting in partnership in the same home, it's important to protect your boys from the worst of MLC parenting and I think in that moment you did so. I think if you stay quiet in those moments, you defer to the MLC mayhem and the parenting they experience is 'his' parenting. I think it's always right to defer to the 'looking after me' and 'looking after them' option in these circumstances. It also models some behaviour for your H and if you are able to do it in a respectful way (ie: not bringing him down - even better.)

It sounds like you are doing well - and the moments of consideration from your H, must help balance the trying times. I would accept these for what they are and not try to string them together into any positive forward movement - just enjoy that moment.

Take care my friend xx

[HaWho]

Thanks Sotto for those pearls of wisdom. I appreciate your advice.

Well, I lost my temper today. And I need to vent. But first, a few updates.

H had memory problems resurface. The other day he couldn't remember what we did for XMAS this past year! I let him struggle through it. Finally he said "why can't I remember this. HaWho, what did we do for XMAS?" I answered and he seemed very frustrated in general.

Last night he gave me a really nasty comment. Somehow he worked my engagement ring into a conversation and said in anger "how much did THAT cost me?" Really classy. I handled this well by answering (very innocently): "I don't know. It never occurred to me to ask." It was a gift he gave willingly. I never asked for the ring and I never told him what he should spend on it. These are his choices.

This comment is on the heels of him saying a few weeks ago that he could have been on a boat all by himself instead of dealing with us. I am SO angry. I am tired of this litany. He is fortunate. He really is.

Today was a disaster. H is supposed to be supervising S12 mowing the lawn weekly. HAH! Talk about the blind leading the blind. Well, S didn't mow it this week. And h is oblivious. H promised me he would oversee this one chore while I oversee the 50 million others.

So I asked S12 to do it. I should not have meddled, but I did. He has a chore and he should do it. H said he would oversee it and he should supervise it. So, as I played drill sergeant, h came in and asked S12 to do something fun! I muttered: "he can't he is doing his chore: mowing the lawn." H said ok, truly, like he was a friend coming over to play with his buddy. He didn't seem to connect that this is the chore HE is supposed to supervise! And so, then I muttered "which you are supposed to be overseeing."

Well, he came out with his claws. He told me to keep my nose out of it. He said the lawn didn't even need mowing. I told him that HE is the one who said it needed to be done every week! (And though I didn't say it, it DID need it and he was just trying to save face.) So I said, ok, we'll just let him do his chores whenever he feels like it, I guess.

He told me to stop meddling in his affairs, to let him handle this and stop looking through his room and his stuff. I said "why would I bother looking through your stuff? To see all the lies you tell?"

Not a good day for me. I was frustrated. It is tiring being the only adult around.

He decided to take the kids out. I am off on my own tonight. I am going to grab a burger and go for a long walk.

Boy, am I mad today though.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, you are so welcome and if I can help in any small way during these difficult times, I am glad.

I can understand your anger and truly when I read your sitch I don't see how I would have been able to do what you are doing and I'm full of admiration. I hope you can find some ways to release the pent up emotion - bash some stuff or do a vigorous job or exercise - something away from your H ideally.

The thing I'm noticing is that your anger seems to be borne from expectation. The expectation that your H will step up and be a parent in that one tiny way, whilst you are keeping everything else oiled, afloat and running smoothly. And what happens? He doesn't. Would it help to try and adjust your own expectation of him? Not to really see him as Dad (supervising tasks) or H (not lying) etc. - to truly accept that whilst you live in the same house, he doesn't really have much useful to offer and maybe not at the times you need.

There are moments of kindness, which is nice - and these are a bonus. The thing is, when you are angry (understandably and as a result of expectations....I thought he could just do that one job etc...) that becomes pressure for him and he responds like a cornered animal - aggression. He's not really in a place where he can deal with that - maybe he will get there and maybe not, but right now he isn't.

So, can you peacefully share a living space and have no expectations of him as a father or an H - whilst protecting your own boundaries in the face of any unreasonable behaviour? It is always your choice to carry on living together or not - and you can change your mind or have had enough at any given point. You have much power in this situation. But I think the only way to really get through living with a MLCer is to completely detach and let go of all expectations...

Just my thoughts anyway HaWho, and all said from the perspective of 'I don't know how she does this' and full of respect and admiration for you.

Do take care and I hope your weekend is a good one Sweetheart xx

[HaWho]

Sotto - thank you for that, truly.

I read and re-read your post. It's true that any time I apply 'pressure,' of any kind, he responds as a cornered animal. And it's true that I still have expectations for him even though I can see with my own eyes he is not the adult he once was.

Another issue is that, yesterday, I did not get out and hike or do anything physical until after h and I had words. I could feel the tension rising in my body. S12 was under the weather and I was home with him. But I remember thinking: I should go clean the garage. I know for me, I need that physical workout each and every day, usually twice/day.

Thank you so much Sotto for helping me see the patterns. I really appreciate the help.

[job]

HaWho,
I agree w/Sotto and you have to find a way not to have expectations of your h. Right now, he is incapable of following through on stuff that he says he'll oversee, etc. You are so much like me in the fact that when someone says that they are going to do something and then they don't, we get very frustrated and even angry. It's difficult to let go of the expectations, but in time, you can do this. I have learned to say "oh, well...it's on him/her and if it doesn't get done, it doesn't get done". Then when they inquire about why something isn't completed, I just look at them and say "you volunteered to take care of it, so I stepped aside since you said you would take care of it". It's not easy, but you've got to drop that rope.

I hate to say this, but I do think the tension in your home is escalating and I am starting to sense from your posting that your frustration and anger are building more and more each time he doesn't step up to the plate. Maybe it's time to start shooting off some of those truth darts and calling him on his behavior, especially his comments. After all, wouldn't you call your sons out if they were saying such things to someone else?

What strikes me as odd is that he continues to accuse you of going through his things and in his room, i.e., I thought he was locking the door all of the time...when did you learn to pick locks? He can't seem to let that go.

Bottom line...breathe and when you feel that frustration and anger bubbling, get out of the house for a bit.

[mleigh4]

Hi HW,

Sotto and Job have given some great advice, I don't have much to add other than my own way of dealing with my sitch. Once I was able to drop the expectations and accept that my H was no longer my H and no longer around much to parent, I took on the role of basically being a single mom. When issues came up, I made it clear to H with truth darts, based on his choices that result in the current situation, I live by my rules. I would tell him, you have decided to go live your own separate life, so do it and leave me alone. My life, my rules.

I don't think there is anything wrong with calling him out on his behavior and his choices. You would do just that with anyone else, right?

You continue to amaze me with your calm and grace. Keep your world that way. And there is nothing wrong with following up on your S with his chores. You are both the parents, your H had no reason to lash out. HW, keep riding on that awesome strength you have, and don't forget your power and your choices.

Much love,

M

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, I'm so sorry things have been somewhat turbulent lately. I will agree with the others when it comes to expectations.

I'm going to go a step further and agree with Job about the truth darts. The two words that came to mind when reading your last few posts are boundaries and respect. I think we all work really hard to give our MLCers space and time to work out their issues and most of us give them great latitude. But at some point we have to decide that this is far as we will let them go and no further. This is as much as we will tolerate and no more. And then start enforcing some boundaries and start demanding a little respect ... all done calmly and lovingly, of course.

Obviously, you know your sitch better than any of us and maybe you've done/are doing that, so take my suggestion with a grain of salt if that's appropriate.

Many, many {{{HUGS}}} to you.

[HaWho]

Thanks everyone for the posts. I hear you and I agree. I need to launch more truth darts.

Well, it's been an interesting few days. I have been looking deeply at a lot of my issues: those pre-MLC and those that have spawned and mutated in MLC. I am processing a lot of those.

Pre - MLC and through MLC: I need better boundaries. I listened to a Brene Brown talk on this. Her research shows that people with the strongest boundaries are the most compassionate individuals. When you set boundaries, you create that safe space for yourself and resentment can't fester and that allows you to show compassion because you're not angry.

I also stumbled across this great thread in the archives. There is this poster TrueGritter helping Mentalradio. And she is helping me, too. She writes a bit about finding your inner core and once you do, you stop second guessing yourself and decisions become easier and natural. I feel like I have lost this in myself as I have been living with a crazy person for some time now. And in the beginning, I didn't realize he was depressed so I was focusing there and losing my truth north.

One of the other things Truegritter writes that I want on my thread:

"Before you can know grace and love you have to experience its absence.
You have to experience its opposite so you will recognize what it is not.
Most people never have their idea of love tested.
And that is why most people will not understand what you are doing."

This has helped me tremendously as I recently have found myself being hit with an avalanche re-processing that horrific letter he wrote to me. That's not love, it's the absence of it. I have been working through so many of my issues there. Too much to post.

As for h? Well, last night I was de-cluttering my room. S10 ran up and asked me if I had seen H's computer. I said no. And I immediately thought: if he doesn't find it he will for sure accuse me of stealing it.

An hour or so later I was still cleaning and hadn't heard anything more about it so I assumed he found wherever he misplaced it. I assume the last place he brought it? I walk out to throw out some garbage and meet him in the walkway. He stares me down and says, "well, where is it?" I had kind of forgotten about it and say "where is what?" His computer, of course. I say I have no idea.

And he accuses me of stealing it. I tell him I have not. He accuses me of lying. I state one more time I had nothing to do with it and he should retrace his steps. (He is always losing things in MLC: he has left credit cards at restaurants, left things on the roof his car that fall off and break, etc.)

Well, he tells me there are no steps to retrace as he was last using it in his dorm room and of course he is in perpetual lockdown mode. I truth dart him and say "I don't go near your X Street bedroom." And I name his childhood street name. He looks surprised as that childhood room/house has centered on so many of his MLC issues. Maybe he will go and process that to connect dots. And I walk away. It's all very calm. I know that was a good and much needed dart.

But he makes a few PA comments later: funny how things disappear from a locked room. (What's next: I crawled through the 5 inch heating vent to get in there? I travel through walls?)

I do not offer to retrace steps with him. If I find that computer, he will accuse me of planting it there. Or, that upon finding it, I hacked into it. So I steer completely clear.

At one point he came upstairs and looked in the kids' closets??? He asked S12 if he'd taken it?? Later, S12 went to him and said "it's been a year and half since you have come upstairs and it was to look for your computer." S12 told him they need him upstairs more. H flubbed and said: I thought you needed your space. (Talk about projection.) S12 said they need more affection from him and reminds him S10 is only 10. S12 has his number and always has.

I am so proud of S12. H listened and was calm. He may remember this one if and when he wakes up.

It's been a year and half since he has walked up the stairs to his children's bedrooms! Imagine that. And this from a man who used to go in every night and tickle them, but them and tell them a story from history.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho - wow, it's like Doonesbury's 'In search of Reagan's brain' in your house! I can't wait to find out where the computer turns up.

Looks like you got in a little practice with the truth dart too. I think whenever you offer these, it is always best to do so from a place of calm maturity - and even with a touch of humour thrown in. It sounds like your eldest was doing the same too.

Yes, it is a huge shift to go from being the guy with the tickles to him in his present state. And I think that just goes to show that MLC is a tough place to be. After all, don't we all want to be the ones who have a bond with our kids and enjoy tickling them?

Good for you with the introspection and self-improvement. I really rate Brene Brown and will look up the talk you mentioned.

Xx

[job]

I'm going to be interested also as to where his computer is. It's probably under the bed w/the huge dust bunnies! LOL! I am very proud of you that you gave him a truth dart and did it so calmly. Your S12 has got this detachment and truth dart stuff down to a science. After all, he can do it much better than us because your h is on the same age level as your S12.

I am so sorry that he is still accusing you of going into his locked room. I guess you are using mental telepathy to move things around and open the door w/o a key. He really has lost the plot in many ways.

Continue moving forward.

PS: Here's the thread that HaWho referenced, i.e., Truegritter's postings on mentalradio's thread.

MLC spouse projecting their negativity onto the LBS

[HaWho]

It sure is like 'In Search of Reagan's Brain,' around here. LOL Sotto!

Job, thanks for linking that thread here. It's a good one! And yes, maybe I am telepathic.

OMG - I did peek my head into the dorm room at some point last night to ask him if he was sure this was the last place he used it. And boy, was it a D.U.M.P. The problem is, he is so flaky that he very well could have left it in his unlocked car and it could be long gone now. Who knows?!? I hope our identities aren't stolen.

The funny thing is I started to ask him to slow down and go through his day, step by step. So, I asked "where is the last place you were?" This is of course a normal question when you're trying to help someone find a lost item. Well, he wouldn't tell me! Because it's top secret! So that's when I just stopped trying to help.

All I can say is, I am quite an intriguing LBS. Here are the things I have done according to my MLCer and bear in mind, that while I have been accused of doing these things I am *actually* doing something like cooking dinner, folding laundry or listening to an audio book (LOL!)! My MLCer has accused me of trying to poison him, steal his epipens so that after I poison him he can't save himself (I am very thorough!), plotting to murder him, stealing his computer and stealing things from outside his locked stinky dorm room.

He just came home: no computer. I can tell he thinks I have it. I said hello and he grumbled hello. His demeanor is angry. S10 says "hi" and h cheerfully and loudly said: "HELLO!"

Oh boy.

[Wonka]

HW,

I'm curious to know what H does for a living.

Based on the latest installments of the Wonder Boy adventures, I cannot help but wonder if he actually spends his days at the local arcade center playing 'Centipede' instead of clocking in hours at the office.

[Ginger1]

I have got to ask.....

After he insistently accused you of stealing his laptop and you initially trying to help him which was very very nice, why did you still go out of your way to help him find it?

You did great with the truth dart, but why approach the subject again? Still in his crazy head, he thinks you took it. Honestly, even if you were the one to help him find it, he would probably have said you planted it there and led him to it after you stole it.

Your heart is big, you are a super DB'er, but walk away from the insanity. If he wants to go off like a little boy and not take responsibility, leave him to it.

[HaWho]

Hi Ginger. The only reason I went out of my way to help is because this situation directly impacts me and to a great extent. If that computer was stolen then there's a good chance I'll be dealing with identity theft. And that's a nightmare to untangle. Ugh.

That said, I had no intention of actually retracing some of his steps while he retraced others. I knew from the get-go I could not be the one to find it because he would think I planted it.

Along Wonka's thinking, I don't think he's responsible enough to own a computer yet. Ha ha. Centipede, LOL!

I am hoping Job is right and maybe it's somewhere in that dump of a room. Crossing my fingers . . .

[job]

It's either in the dump of a room or in the car under one of the seats. He doesn't stray too far from home unless he took it w/him when he went to visit a friend.

[mleigh4]

How do you lose a computer!? I am very curious what happened to it. I hope it wasn't stolen

Good job with the truth dart. Boundaries are so important for us in this situation. Stand your ground with those, your H can be quite the bully at times.

I like to hear you keeping your focus on you, don't get sucked into the crazy!

[ciluzen]

HaWho, The MLC re-writers have recreated us with new evil personalities. I'm a hateful harpy who won't let mine do anything fun and you are a magical klepto who walks through walls!

I'm going to guess that if he's as messy as you say, its under a pile of clothes or a jumble of bedding. Are we wagering money, chips or marshmellows?

[mleigh4]

Hi HW,

Any luck with the computer yet??

[BrightFuture]

HaWho, I continue to be amazed at your patience… and grace… and understanding... And, of course at your sense of humor through all of this. A missing computer sounds a bit troublesome. Do you think the computer just got fed up with your H or had a MLC on its own and just walked away, LOL. Aside from the joke, I totally get your concern. I hope it turns out somewhere in the house. I mean the stinky dorm room.

I agree with others about some boundaries and occasional truth darts. I hope you had a decent weekend and is ready for the week ahead.

[HaWho]

Bright - maybe the computer is a WAS. He is practically married to it! LOL!

Ciluzen - let's wager in laptops. They appear to be a dime a dozen around here.

Still no laptop, Mleigh. Wonder if he remembers he lost it?!?

Ugh. So, more memory problems over here. S10 had a game at different location but one we've been to before. The last time we were there was a year ago, when h was in Transvania-like fog. So I hear him say he's googling where this "new place" is. In the car, I ask if we're going to x place? He says yes and I say we've been there before, several times and I tell him where it is. (I used to sit quiet during his memory glitches but I now always point out discrepancies.) I think it's a form of truth darting and often, he now wonders why he can't remember it. (Plus, I definitely want to differentiate that I am fine and it's him that is loopy.). We get there and he says he's never been here before. I say he has, multiple times. He wonders aloud why he doesn't remember.

There was some future talk this weekend. On Sunday he texted me asking if he and the boys could take me out to lunch for my birthday. I say sure. This is a change from last year where he includes himself. (Mother's Day 2015 was a particular horror show when he announced in front of everyone that none of the gifts were from him. S10 told him that was not a nice thing to say! LOL!)

We went to a nice restaurant on the water. It was kind of uncomfortable because the service was awful and the waiter kept calling my h "brother." Very odd for an upscale restaurant. And the way he said it was like they were in some sort of gang together?? So I started to call him brother, too. And he laughed. It's good to know he can still smile. Anyway, at the end of what was a really bad experience, (like 20 minutes for everything to arrive), h apologized and said "we'll do better next year." I said it was all fine. But it was weird. I told him the restaurant was having an identity crisis. It used to be this low end casual beach place and I am assuming they kept the same waitstaff despite the fact that the new place is a fancy place.

Maybe to him a year seems like a few days from now, but I cringed. Granted, this year is better than last in that at least I am not sitting there listening to him tell me that he wants to sleep with other women and go away for a FEW YEARS. This year, if he tried that again, I was ready to tell him to discuss it with his 'brother,' the waiter.

As for me, I find myself in this odd place. It's new. Where prior to this, it hurt equally to be in h's presence as without h, now? It's more uncomfortable to be with him. I prefer being by myself. It's all the weirdness/pain of the letter, the paranoia, the silence, the zoning he does. Sometimes I look over at him and he's zoning out into thin air. I want to tape those swirling black and white circles over his eyes to complete the look.

But he is also spending a lot more time with the boys and consistently so. He never invites or includes me anymore. Where before this sort of thing stung, now? I grab my sneakers and off I go.

Perhaps the most exciting 'new' thing? Yesterday he turned the radio on in his car!!! This is the first time in 3 or 4 years I was not subjected to his depressing MLC greatest hits. I was going to make a crack that I was shocked his radio still worked after such gross neglect but I was just so very thankful not to hear one of the same 10 songs again. I didn't want to rock the boat. I should have said it was nice but then the implication is that usually it's not? And that seemed rude to say.

As for me? I am still working through a lot of my emotions on that letter. I am sure you are all groaning but it's a big mountain for me to get over. I've been re-reading the detachment thread and it's becoming my mantra. It's helping me so much but I still have tons of wounds from that grenade he threw at me.

[kml]

You know, though, that he probably doesn't even remember anything he wrote in that letter? Look at it as the ramblings of a psychotic person.

Of course, if he ever wakes out of his trance, he will have a lot of work to do to convince you that he doesn't believe any of those things. You deserve that reassurance. But it IS truly amazing how little they can remember of things they said and did while in crisis.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, I'm not groaning about the letter Sweetheart There are certain things during this experience that really get to us and that letter did to you. Either you will get an opportunity to work through that with your H or you won't. We either heal alone or together, but the main thing is to heal.

In my sitch, I learned that trying to engage with XH on 'why' resulted in him saying some more stuff that rankled with me as he just built himself up as a guy who'd made mistakes but knew what he wanted now - a new family. Ugh - didn't help me one bit!!

Funny about your H not remembering visits to that place. I can't imagine feeling that way. I'm sure I remember everywhere I have been - guess I'm not in MLC then!! XH and me used to go to a regular place with SS and I think he would have sailed past the junction for it 50% of the time, had I not reminded him. There were times when I didn't really pay attention and we did sail past it....weird! I occasionally sail past stuff, but once every few years, you know?

Anyway 'sister' (just thought I would try that one out....even though I don't work in a fancy restaurant...) sounds like you are doing well with everything....keep on keeping on!

Xx

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, please forgive me because I don't recall exactly what was in the letter, but I do understand completely how some things can just eat at you. For you it's the letter and the things that were said. For me, it's the lying about stupid stuff and hiding things that I wouldn't give a wit about.

I think Sotto is right. We and our spouses may or may not work through that stuff together, but we will find peace with it eventually.

Sotto is also right about trying to engage. My H was willing to answer any question I had for him last week and he did exactly as Sotto's H did. Best to zip the lips.

Keep moving forward and take care of you and those boys.

Glad the music has lightened up!

2T

[HaWho]

Sotto - thank you! I feel myself actively working on healing from the letter.

KML - your advice is logical and probably very healthy. Honestly, I don't see myself heading the way of 'someday if he wakes up, I'll feel better when he reassures me.' More on that to follow. BTW - I think he remembers that letter to some extent. Remember, a few months later, out of the blue he asked for it back. Not out of contrition but out of paranoia: he said he didn't know what I would do with it.

2T - The letter was awful. He told me I was showing signs of aging (uh, yeah, DUH, so was HE) and he recommended certain improvements I could make via surgery. He also asked that I stop being intelligent and just be sexy, 24/7. (I was never the sexy type, too much Catholic schooling for me to throw on the mini skirt and bend over to get attention!) At the time he wrote it, he was knee deep with two shallow MLC friends and I think he thought that was the silver bullet to happiness? These two guys were 50, never married, Viagra popping, skirt chasing guys. Zero substance to them. He had already ditched his decent guy friends.

Job said it best: I never once was the things he now said he wanted. It was all the opposite.

The tone of the letter was arrogant and completely entitled. For example, he reassured me that none of the physical changes were required for his friendship! Can you imagine saying that someone?

Now, maybe you're secretly thinking, 'hmm, maybe HaWho is morbidly obese? Maybe she is so large she needs to be hoisted out of her house by crane?' Well, I am not. I am 5' 8" 125 lbs. and men do not cross streets to avoid me.

Two seconds before he gave me the letter I was okay with myself and how I looked. Afterwards, despite setting a firm boundary on him (telling him my body was NOT the issue and we would never again discuss MY body), I started to see my body as he saw it. I still hear a lot of what he wrote. I have been working very hard at trying not to hear those things and to see my body as I did before the letter. And I certainly don't want to do *anything* to attract this kind of person.

KML - the way I am heading is that his opinion means nothing to me. The reason he wrote it is fast becoming obsolete. It's like if someone gets drunk and says all sorts of homophobic, racist & misogynistic things. You see something come out that is weird and not okay. You can't really see that person or their opinion in the same way. Something changes permanently. Maybe they were temporarily crazy. But something shifts nonetheless.

I am not saying this is healthy if there is ever a future with us, but his opinion of my body is getting to be of absolutely no consequence to me. This is how I am healing, healthy or not. He could tell me I am hideous and it won't matter. He can tell me I'm gorgeous and it won't matter. Actually, I never want to hear what he thinks of my body again. Perhaps even more problematic? I don't want to be attractive to him. I don't even want his eyes on me. I know. B.I.G. problem if he ever wakes up and I am still 'here.' This is probably where KML's advice would come into play? But I am not sure I will ever care again.

So, h? Well, he has been quiet. He is speding lots of time with the boys. I am not sure how much of this is on a friend level vs. a father/son level? It is time with them. The quantity is improving, just not sure on the quality?

He is eating so much lately. He ate a whole pizza yesterday! And every 2nd or 3rd day there is a new gallon of ice cream in the freezer. This was his diet in his 20's. Pizza and ice cream. That sweet tooth they have in depression is on full force!

He pretty much ignores me. It's 'hi' and 'bye' and that's about it. For pretty much every conversation he categorically addresses the kids' names at the start as if to say: you are not included in this conversation HaWho.

The other day the boys asked him to check out this show they like where people race through obstacle courses. We were all in the same room. H watched and his takeaway? He said: 'I am so old.' No one said anything. He said louder: 'I am SO old.' No one said anything.

I wanted to say: 'well, maybe you should finish growing up then?'

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, thank you for reminding me about the letter. I remember it now.

As I read your post I couldn't help but think how much our sitch's are alike as far as H's being able to plant seeds that cause us to rethink ourselves and to doubt ourselves. Your H telling you about the discrepancies with you body is the same as my H telling me that I live a "dull" life.

It makes us question if there is something wrong with us. It makes us rethink our comfort in being who we are.

I've been thinking all day about my post and the replies I received (thank you so much for posting your thoughts).

My thinking is that I could (and you could) remake ourselves into what they say is their ideal partner and they'd just find something else that needed to be "fixed." The deck is stacked against us. We can't win. Until they come to their senses, there will always be something lacking in their eyes. It's the only way they can justify treating us like chit.

There's nothing wrong with your body and there's nothing wrong with the way I choose to live my life. All of that was just fine for many, many years. Now all of sudden it's not?

Forget that letter (and I'm forgetting the garbage about my lifestyle). It's MLC talk designed to justify their behavior to themselves. Even if we pretzeled ourselves into being the "vision" they say they want, they'd just find some other flaw we needed to address.

Just be who you are, physically, mentally, emotionally ... be you!

The problem is not us ... it's them!

Be kind to yourself. Forget that MLC crap. You know he's way off base (as is my H). Don't let it get to you.

I know ... easier said than done. I fall for my H's criticism all the time and end up wondering what's wrong with me. But we can't let them pull us down. We know our own value. Hopefully, someday they will once again see it. In the meantime, we shouldn't let them get in our heads and make us doubt who we are.

I think you are an awesome woman (and I think I am, too.) How many women (or men) would weather this storm and not just walk away? We're incredibly strong and wise people and we're learning more and more about ourselves everyday. But we're learning it from a place of logic and reality and not some fantasy world. We're pretty special people in my book.

Much love.
2T

[HaWho]

2T - thanks for that post. It's interesting what you said about transforming ourselves into their vision only to have the vision shift. That's exactly how I felt in the early days of MLC. I heard all sorts of complaints. Suddenly, I didn't cook what he wanted. Mmm, okay, so I altered that. Then that shifted again. Then it was x, y and z stupid thing. It was all a moving target. It took me FOREVER to realize it was a giant game of whack-a-mole.

So, here are a few interesting MLC updates. This weekend h took kids to a tournament and gave me the weekend off. I thanked him, but wonder if he wasn't icing me out by playing Mr. Nice Guy? Anyway, I had a great weekend. I played lots of tennis, saw a friend for lunch and dropped 50 IQ points shamelessly watching bad TV!

As for the kids and h? S12 was upset because they only went to the beach for 1/2 hour? Then h said he wasn't feeling well and they went back to the hotel room. (I remember in my own depression saying and believing I didn't feel well when it was really fatigue. I was wonder if that's what this is?) S12 said h was kind of baving a hard time just relaxing. And then from 2-4 am h was playing music despite the fact that the kids were right there in the same room trying to sleep?!? S12 asked him to turn it off so they *could* sleep. H got cranky and said no! There is that inability to quiet the mind at night.

Today, as I was cooking dinner h asked if he can have a certain wall hanging from the master bedroom. I told him of course he could. I politely told him it is his and he can have anything in there that is his. He told me that was the only item he wanted.

Prior to this when he's wanted things out of the room he's just taken it. He just moved his stuff out without a word, then, on another occasion he packed that suitcase and hauled out more stuff.

The picture is a sentimental one to him. It always has been. It reminds him of his grandmother. Perhaps he thinks he just needs to spruce us the dorm room to feel better? Maybe it is a temperature check to see my reaction? Maybe both?

Who knows? I have no idea. I took the picture down and left it outside his dorm room. A year ago this would have stung. It would have been evidence of he distance between us growing. Now? It's a painting he wants.

[job]

If he was close to his grandmother, then I can understand him wanting the picture.

As for feeling unwell, depression does make you feel that way. However, he sure perked up later, didn't he? He just can't quiet his mind long enough to sleep properly and has to be doing something to stay busy. The music is his way to keep the demons at bay.

BTW, I'm glad you had the weekend off and could enjoy yourself. Hopefully things will remain a bit calmer in the days ahead.

[HaWho]

I am so astounded by how utterly ridiculous the MLCer can be.

Yesterday, h texts me asking why I have spent x dollars in the last month. His tone is hostile. I text back and detail exactly what I spent the money on: clothes, shoes and new backpacks for the kids (theirs both broke this year).

And I decide it is just time to launch truth darts at him. I have heard all your advice + he has zero self awareness. Actually, his self awareness is in the negative numbers.

First, a vent. Seriously, he is going to start this with ME? He has bought himself a second car!! He has lost a laptop!

So I have already called him out on his car band-aid so I will pick something else. And I don't want to mention the laptop because he is cray cray and thinks I stole it. But, I have SO many things with which to hit him. There is an armory of truth darts from which to choose. I take an hour or so and think about what to say. In the end, I hit him quick, but hard and real deep.

I tell him that while he is upset I am spending on the kids he is ordering himself the finest organic foods, spices and vitamins. (All very expensive but he's worth it, it seems! But I don't say this part). Then I do say, you were willing to pay for renting a beach house so you could sleep with other women and you were willing to pay loads of money for me to see a plastic surgeon. But essentials for your kids are a problem?!?

He writes back that he is "not going to discuss that cr@p." Interesting as 'that cr@p' is verbatim what he said! But I say nothing back. He needs help seeing how incredibly selfish and superficial he has become. He needs to be left alone in the silence and darkness with all 'that cr@p.'

Then he texts back saying that what I do with my life is my business, he is merely here for guidance. Umm, what?!? LOL! And what kind of guidance am I to receive from him?!? Seriously? He is a grown man hiding, lost and paranoid, in his re-created childhood bedroom? And his 'guidance' regarding financials have been ruinous (2nd cars, beach shag pads and plastic surgery bills!) I do not respond.

He texts me telling me I have ruined his adult life and he has always provided very well for me. He tells me I should not have hostility towards him. I say nothing.

Then, the most bizarre thing? He sends me a text saying almost exactly what I told *him* after he bought his 2nd (2nd) MLC car (a few months ago): that we should be saving for the future and not spending frivolously! And I do not think he is being a wise guy. I think he is being genuine and does not realize I already told him all this! I don't answer. I bought the kids clothes and packbacks and shoes. I did not go buy myself a second car, lose a computer, or want to rent a beach house so I could play frat boy!

The kids and I come home and his body language is meek, not angry. Interesting. I can tell I 'won' because if he had even a pinky toe to stand on he's be angry and still spewing.

He is hungry and I tell him there is chicken in the fridge. He clucks like a hen (old h humor). The kids want cocoa, he is in the room so I offer him some. One of the big things I am working on is not being cold when angry. And it feels good to fix this about myself.

Then he ducks into the dorm room. At 8PM it is dark and silent in there. 1/2 hour or so later he comes out to walk the dog. His body language is like a little boy. He takes the dog's collar and jostles it jokingly as if teasing the dog with 'walk time.' He makes sure I see it. He returns and ducks back into that MLC incubator. The temperature is set at a constant and cozy 'crazy.'

I head upstairs and I hear him go out and talk to S12 a bit. I know he is avoiding me. I don't blame him. My truth darts left him looking like a porcupine.

[HaWho]

Oh, and two other HUGE projections I forgot to mention. In his texts to me, h asked if I realize I have 'gone nuts on my spending?' And he asked if I can find some way to be happy without spending money.

I said nothing. But, I can't help but wonder if this is complete denial on his part, some awakening to his applications of band-AIDS, or perhaps a bit of both?

What a completely bizarre thing the mind is in MLC.

[Ginger1]

" buying things our sons need is not going nuts on spending money, however, if I went out and bought a second car, you should be especially concerned that I was trying to buy my happiness. I hope you would call me out on it, because that would be going nuts on my spending"

[BrightFuture]

Hey, HaWho, great job with the truth darts! I think you need to do more of that. Good thing you have an extensive supply of them to choose from, LOL. It is so true that MLCer can only concentrate on one thing at a time, and it seems like you H is preoccupied with the spending right now. Just on time for the start of the school year, I guess. I would ask him point blank if he would prefer you spending some money on the plastic surgery, instead of buying things for kids.

I like Ginger’s comment ...

Take care HaWho. I hope your weekend is calm and quite, and maybe it is a good thing that your H is avoiding you now, so you could have some break from this MLC insanity.

[Esame]

HaWho I've not been around lately so I've not been posting much, sorry. I'm trying to catch up with your situation. Your H's "crazy" is getting out of hand, well done for you patience with it all. I don't understand how people can change so much, I really cannot imagine what it must be like for them too. I find that through the pain my H's issues have caused me I'm finding myself, but who knows how things will turn out for us and our families... One thing is certain, you are stronger every day, maybe at some point in the future you'll be able to look back at this madness and see it as the turning point in your life

[Esame]

I also stumbled across this great thread in the archives. There is this poster TrueGritter helping Mentalradio. And she is helping me, too. She writes a bit about finding your inner core and once you do, you stop second guessing yourself and decisions become easier and natural. I feel like I have lost this in myself as I have been living with a crazy person for some time now. And in the beginning, I didn't realize he was depressed so I was focusing there and losing my truth north.

One of the other things Truegritter writes that I want on my thread:

"Before you can know grace and love you have to experience its absence.
You have to experience its opposite so you will recognize what it is not.
Most people never have their idea of love tested.
And that is why most people will not understand what you are doing."

This has helped me tremendously as I recently have found myself being hit with an avalanche re-processing that horrific letter he wrote to me. That's not love, it's the absence of it. I have been working through so many of my issues there. Too much to post.

This seems very interesting HaWho! Do you still have the link to the thread please?

[job]

Esame,
Go to Page 1 of this thread and scroll down a bit. I posted the link for HaWho to Trugritter's thread.

[ciluzen]

Thanks Esame and Job! I was interested in that link, as well. It looks interesting.

[HaWho]

Thanks all.

Well, a day after launching the truth darts, h called me. That is the first time he has done so in a lonnng time and so I know it coincides with the conversation we've had.

He calls to discuss S12's birthday party. We discuss the cost and I see very quickly he is calling to show his fiscally responsible side. He wants to earn a gold star. (It reminds me of what 2T's h is doing regarding their business.) I play along. I validate where I can and agree when I can. This is a 180 for me as usually, when I get mad I get frigid. I didn't used to be this way, it came from living with a distancer. Anyway, I know he was testing waters as he could have texted all this.

Later that night, with the kids in the room, he again made a 'poor me' comment about his room. With the kids there, I didn't want to start a fire. And a few weeks ago he uttered, with deep regret to S10, that he should have taken the upstairs room. He mentioned it like it is a tactical error, as though he conquered the wrong country in Risk.

But, this morning, he sent me a text and signed off 'guy in the downstairs cave.' FINALLY, he is mentioning it off line. A gift! I wait a bit and text back kindly reminding him that he decided to move down there twice and that I asked him to reconsider both times but he said he wanted to be down there.

I don't expect an answer back. I am not sure he remembers it all. But he does text back and his response tells me he is raw in his baking process. He says he should have sent me down instead! And then he says being a gentleman is weighty work. (What an arrogant a$$.)

I respond that he has not always treated me as a gentleman should. (And that is most certainly the truth. My oh my, does he have airs about him!)

He responds back and says he is sorry I feel that way. He says when there was a relationship he did his best under some trying conditions. (I assume my depression.) He tells me the past can't be altered. And he hopes my perception of it all improves when I look at my behavior vs. his. (Hmm, I am banking on the same from him!) He says he did his best to create a happy home life. Now he is just trying to raise two boys to be productive, happy, gentleman while he manages to squeeze out a moment or two of personal happiness, after completing all his responsibilities. He is even willing to live in this hot cave to do so. He says he still feels very selfless and gentlemanly. Then he says have a nice day and says he is signing off.

(Love how he categorically *tells* me he is signing off. This is his way of saying he will not hear any more for me. Maybe I should just give him a microphone?)

I will let it all sit. Maybe in a few hours I will offer a heartfelt and genuine apology for my faults during my depression. Or maybe not now.

Looking at it all, there is way less anger than there used to be. However, he still thinks everything is all my fault. He reminds me of one of those guys who happily preens himself in front of a mirror; just sopping up all that he sees. And honestly, it seems like he has absolutely no feeling for me whatsoever. Clearly the relationship to him is still completely over. That is sobering. But I remember hating him in my depression and finding him really unattractive and I am holding on to that. For how long? Sheesh, he is 21 months post BD.

And clearly he has the martyr routine down pat. Move over Joan of Arc . . .

[kml]

he should have taken the upstairs room. He mentioned it like it is a tactical error, as though he conquered the wrong country in Risk.

Lolol - almost spit out my coffee

As for your eventual reply - I'm reminded of something a wise person said to me when I was first here and saving my marriage for the first time - Validate, Validate, Validate. You don't have to twist yourself into a pretzel or say things that are untrue, but you can validate whatever IS true about his perspective.

Such as - "It must have been difficult for you while I was going through my depression. I look back at it now and can't believe some of the things that I did or thought during that time. I appreciate you sticking by me through that. I feel so much better now."

All of this is right, correct? So it's ok to say.

Of course, the temptation would be to add "And that's why I'm sticking by you through your depression " but I wouldn't, as it's obvious that he still doesn't understand what's going on with him.

And the bigger questions you need to ask yourself are still - how long do you tolerate this? Is it still better for your boys to be in the same house or not? I think your answer for now is to still stay, but it is a question that should be revisited periodically. If your H improves - even just improves as a father and is just cordial to you - it's probably the right thing. But if it's going to go on for the next 5 years with him behaving poorly and the kids seeing you take all his craziness - then it may not be modeling the best relationship behavior for them.

I don't think you'll know for another 6 mos if this is just him settling into a permanent pattern of martyrdom (gawd, let's hope not!) or the earliest inklings of self-awareness.

Before YOU got sick with depression, what kind of husband was he? Honestly? I think it's an important question to ask - some guys were great spouses before MLC, others, like mine, had serious flaws all along nthat I was blind to until after we split.

[kml]

Also - btw - what are you doing to prepare yourself financially for the possibility of a divorce? Not saying that it will happen, but saying it never hurts to put yourself in a financially secure position so that you can make decisions based on other factors besides desperate financial need.

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, I had to laugh at your H's response that he's sorry you feel that way. I swear, sometimes I think they've been reading the same material we do!

I find it interesting that he's dropping hints about his dorm room being unsatisfactory. If you recall, I was getting the same hints about my H staying with his parents. I think in my case it was a testing of the waters to see where my head was at because when I offered, he declined (until he had no other choice). Just some food for thought.

I'd take kml's advice. Don't "apologize" for the way you may have behaved in the past, but do acknowledge that you understand how difficult that may have been for him.

And, I'm right there with you, my sister, when it comes to how you think your H feels about you. It is very sobering to stand for so long and tolerate so much and realize that in their minds there is no movement at all when it comes to their decision that the R is completely over.

Much love to you, HaWho.
2T

[mleigh4]

Geez HW. They really have a way of twisting themselves into being the noble hero in all of this, don't they!? Does your H really believe he is doing you all a favor? I remember when my H threw at me that his priority was work so that we could keep our lifestyle and I should be grateful because I had the house. I wanted to say, thank you! For keeping us separated, living 2 different lives, making S go back and forth between 2 homes....it's what we always dreamed of!! I suppose they need to see it that way to justify their anger, but I believe deep down they know it's not right, and I think they struggle with that.

I love KML idea of a response. I may even use it myself, having had my own mini crisis. It's honest and validating and something good for your H to hear.

Maybe take what he said with a grain of salt. You know how they are all over the place, it may have been just how he felt at the moment, it seems to change at times.

I wish I had some good advice for you. My thoughts are with you and your family often. Stay strong and positive, your humor and wit during this are admirable.

[Sotto]

I always think the 'woe is me' mentality is pretty central to MLC. MLCers make some poor choices without really taking responsibility for them and then wonder why life is unfolding as it is for them.

I hear you on the decent and genuine thing. Those were the very words my XH used...that he hoped I'd appreciate that was the guy he is. Um - deciding to start dating other women without ever telling me you were unhappy in our R - no that isn't decent and genuine actually...but I guess we all have our narrative about situations.

Anyway, it sounds as though you are handling things with your usual aplomb. I'm sure it can't be at all easy, but do try and take up opportunities for kindness and compassion towards him - alongside truth darts and boundary setting...truly though - I don't know how you manage to do so well. I'm not sure I could manage it.

Take care my friend xx

[LouR]

Hi H, I don't have nothing to add to what everyone else has already said, just wanted you to know that as always I am supporting you from the sidelines and you are in my thoughts.

You always amaze me; being so clear on your goal and determined, hanging on in there despite all that your h throws at you. We here get to have a chuckle over your h's antics (you write so well and descriptively) but you are the one living it, and to be able to do it with so much understanding is a real credit to your commitment to him.

Look after yourself, I hope the bee in his pants over living in the dorm room of gloom leaves his thoughts soon ....although that probably means he will move on to something else ...phew, you are one seriously patient lady HaWho !!

Love n Hugs to you xoxo

[HaWho]

Thanks, KML, 2T, Mleigh, Sotto and Lou. I so appreciate all your wonderful support. Sotto, yes, I do need to try to show him kindness too, given all the truth darts he's taken.

KML - special thanks for all your questions and advice. So I did send the text pretty much as KML wrote it. It was perfect and true. He never responded. And I expected that. But it felt good for me. Also, come fall, I am going to look for a better job. As for all your questions, KML, in general, my h was a good man who was a good provider. But by limiting my contact with him I see that he is a classic distancer (SO exhausting) and he has many issues within that need resolving. I am going to keep moving forward and let's see how far he comes along. I guess at this point what matters most is how much distance is he going to be able to cover? Is he stuck here on Crazy Street? Is he only going to inch forward? Or is he going to start doing some long jumping at some point?

There have been some interesting MLC moments this week. After I truth darted him about spending on himself vs. the kids, h did a bit of running; now I see the pattern of his avoidance.

On Saturday, I came home and he was in the living room. That, sadly, is in and of itself worthy of posting.

The next day he was in the living room again, when S12 and I returned home. Poor h. S12 says: (genuinely surprised) "what are you doing out here?" And then out of my mouth slipped: "geez, I didn't think you knew this room existed." H made an exaggerated chuckling sound (kind of like 'hardy har har'). He told us he was there because it was nice and quiet (we were all out). He waited a few minutes and then left back to his MLC incubator. Lovely. (I remember feeling the same way in my depression. In fact, when h and kids would come home, before they came in, I would go upstairs. Sad.).

Sunday, S10 decides to run a lemonade stand. He asks me to take him. I know this ticks h off. He thinks he should be asked. As we are leaving I invite him, too. He mumbles that both of us don't need to go. He stays home and watches TV. Lame.

As we are out, h texts me that he has ordered 3 emergency hurricane kits for the cars. I thank him (but I want to say, can you just sell the stupid third car so it doesn't need an emergency kit?). He is trying to show me he is a good guy after I nearly stabbed him to death telling him he puts himself #1. I also laugh. It's just so weird. He is prepared for all these crazy fluke things and yet can't see how lost he is day-to-day.

He is on some sort of 'disaster watch kick.' A week ago, he told the kids he was watching a special on how to survive in the woods. And he thinks he now knows how to kill a bear. Umm, great. Now can you work on figuring out how to be in another room of this house?!? (In addition to the hurricane kits he also bought us bug spray for Zika prevention. He's already using it and he smells like a walking citronella candle.)

I have noticed that in addition to fears about aging and death, he has all sorts of other fears, like those above.

Anyway, while at the lemonade stand, after he told me he ordered those kits, I sent h a pic of son running his lemonade business. H said he would come down. We were folding up as he arrived: all sold out! It is odd. H is 'here' physically but as I've said before, he's sort of like a piece of furniture.

Last night he was truth darted over the missing laptop. The kids were asking for their wii as h put it away for a while. H joked he didn't know where it was. And out of my big, fat mouth slipped a joke: 'oh, maybe it's with your laptop.' Ohh, he got an angry look. He made a snide comment about how 'odd' that all was. And then he got truth darted to death by both sons. S12: "are you again going to accuse me of stealing it?" S10: (with big eyes and nodding his head like he is validating a crazy person) "oh, yesssss, I stole your laptop even though we already have our own" (they use mine). Then S10 gave h an exaggerated pat on the shoulder like it was all going to be okay. I think S10 is destined to work in the mental health profession. Sadly, this could be his internship.

By the end of the night the wii "reappeared" to its old spot. And h was laughing like his old self. He said he didn't know how it got there, it just turned up there. He had S10 in stitches.

H showed up in the master bedroom last night. He knocked as I was already in bed reading. He asked if he could look for some thicker socks. He has bug bites and is worried about Zika. I am expecting him to start walking around in a bee keeping suit.

[job]

All I can say is OMG! He swings from one side of the spectrum and then to the other side. Now, it's all about being prepared for an emergency and bugs. Next, he'll swear he has flea bites.

I still think he knows where the laptop is and is just using that as a excuse to razz you and the boys. It's funny how he's not been going off on that topic for a bit.

Since Christmas is only 4 mths away, get him a butterfly net as a present. He just might need it. LOL!

[HaWho]

OMG - Job, I am going to kidnap you and take you to Vegas. Guess who is flea bombing his dorm room today? No joke!!!

The craziest thing is the only person who could be transporting fleas into that lock-down dorm room is him! The dog hasn't been in there for months! Top secret; no one is allowed access. I am waiting for him to accuse the dog of making a duplicate key.

The other day he sent me four messages that were clearly butt texts. They all looked something like this: fcvjdhd /-":&;

I was so close to saying "wow, this is the MOST sense you have made in two years!" I seriously wanted to send it. But then he texted me saying "sorry for the accidental butt texts. I ordered pizza and will bring it home in a 1/2 hour." So then, I didn't have the heart to poke fun at him.

Fleas?!?

[kml]

If the bug bites were largely below the knees - yes, he might have fleas.

Otherwise - people with paranoia often imagine bugs, especially if their paranoia is due to stimulant drugs like meth or diet pills.

Do you suspect him of any drug abuse? Does he have any medical problems that could lead to paranoia (hyperthyroidism, B12 deficiency to name a couple)?

[HaWho]

KML - I don't suspect drug abuse. That said, who can really say with certainty, right? As for B12 levels he just had a physical and he goes to the doctor frequently. He has them test all that. I assume it would have been picked up?

H is still bent on planning for all sorts of disaster scenarios. After giving me the emergency survival backpack for my car, a few days later, he gave me a bottle of about a million ibuprofen. (The bottle is so big I can hardly get my wrist around it. It can double as a weapon.) I thanked him. Then yesterday he gave me a can opener and a flint (so I can start a fire when the world ends). He has been watching one of those 'how to survive in the woods' series and he is clearly, quite influenced by it.

He is very stuck on old memories. As I mentioned, he is spending more time with the boys. S12 told me he talks a lot about his middle school and high school years. He seems to be reliving his glory days. From the stories son is re-telling to me, h seems to be a legend in his own mind.

On Sunday at dinner, h spread out his mashed potatoes and made a face in them. I think that could have been the little boy. Maybe?

Yesterday, when he came home, I was playing chess with S10. H came in and made eye contact, gave me the can opener and flint and then watched our game. He was engaging and so present. He was following the moves well and seemed so like his old self.

Last night, h took S10 to practice and I was opening windows to cool off the house. I was opening a window down by the dorm room and when I turned around I saw that the door to the MLC incubator was wide open! He left and didn't lock it. And then, all the scenarios start running through my mind: he did it to set a trap. He probably has lasers and cameras angled everywhere. Or, he did it to accuse me of somehow getting in there and then forgetting to cover my tracks by re-locking the door. Or maybe he is airing it out from the flea bomb?

Who knows? I didn't go near it. And when he came home I didn't receive a nasty text accusing me of picking his lock.

He did mention the missing computer at dinner the other night. It was subtle but he said something like it was stolen and how weird it was. He did not say it in an accusatory fashion.

As for me, I feel like I am in a good place. It's the best emotional, physical and spiritual place I have been in yet since MLC struck my life. I feel my old calmness returned to me. I used to be a very calm, patient person.

I had a dream that he left and I was fine with it. I accepted it and looked forward to my future. For the first time I knew I could pull my kids through it. I am already doing it. Most days, despite the fact that I live in this crazy limbo, I look forward to my future, whatever it may be. I look at what I have survived in my life and I realize I can withstand some pretty hard knocks.

It's kind of crazy, but I am happy much of the time. Not all of the time. But, I find much joy in day-to-day life and I have rediscovered humor all around me.
Thanks to everyone here. I could never have gotten to this point without you all. Job, you are an angel on earth. Special thanks to everyone else. I won't name everyone as I know I will inadvertently leave a few off.

[job]

Your h may have been influenced by the "how to survive in the words" series, but I also think he's been seeing and hearing a lot about how the weather is affecting everyone. You have the wildfires in CA, flooding in LA, tornados popping up, etc. He's got a very concerned and scared little boy inside of him that wants to make sure everyone has what they need in case of a disaster. I wonder if he lived thru a disaster as a child and it's coming back to him how he felt back then.

I had a chuckle over the mashed potatoes. Yep, the child came out to play and maybe he was trying to tell you something w/the face in the potatoes. One can only guess at this one.

As for leaving the dorm room door open, again, could have been a accident or he could have deliberately left it open to see if you would venture forth. You don't know if he's put a camera in there or not, but evidently you passed the test! LOL!

As for the laptop stolen...how in the world does he know this? It could just be misplaced somewhere and he's forgotten about it. Something tells me he knows what happened.

As for you...you are doing wonderfully. Your sense of humor has been a God send for you. Keep up the good work. Laughter is the best medicine.

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, I honestly don't know how you do it. A face picture in his potatoes?

Your thoughts about the open dorm room door would have been exactly my thinking ... is this a test?? Test or not, I'm glad you passed.

I'm so glad you've found a "good" place. I know how tough that must be when dealing with a MLC spouse day in and day off.

Take care.

xoxoxo
2T

[HaWho]

Hmm, interesting Job. On several occasions my h has recalled the blizzard of '78. He remembers the cars abandoned everywhere and the snow drifts being taller than him.

But also, both he and his brother are very fearful individuals in general. I think they inherited a lot of the fears their mother passed along. And they each developed their own unique ones as well. They both act like they are really tough, but seriously, if you stand either one of them 1 mm into the woods, they get visibly antsy. This cracks me up as they are fine in the worst neighborhood of the city where statistically they are way more likely to be mugged or shot. But the woods? Well, there is most certainly a giant bear right there waiting to eat them. LOL!

He definitely left the dorm room door open by accident. Twice now, after leaving the house completely, he has returned only to make sure he DID in fact lock it. There's a sign of anxiety.

He had a long conversation with S10 about bear species. He has some sort of obsession with bears attacking him in the woods. He talks about this a LOT. This is made most interesting by the fact that we live in SoCal 15 minutes from the beach.

He's about to be normal for a while. I see the signs now. Last night he made a chocolate drink and made one just for me. When S12 asked for some, h said no, that it was just for me. I thanked him and complimented. It was very good. Is this pleasing mom?

And he's talking to me again. He left to run an errand and said where he was going and when he would return. He kept asking S10 to go with him. He even bribed him with ice cream. When S10 said no thanks, he asked what he could do to get S10 to go with him. S10 answered: I'd like a rollercoaster. That settled that!

Before he left for the errand, he asked if it was an okay time for him to run the errand or did I need him to be home? I ducked into the laundry room to laugh about that one. (This is where I dash off to do most of my secretive laughing at the sheer bizarre-ness I see.) Geez. He's been lost for over 2 years and he asks if I can handle a half hour with the kids all by myself? OMG! I answered him seriously but boy is that ever weird.

He offered to go and take care of x tonight. I took him up on it. (Finally I can praise him for something.)

He is very chatty and engaging. It's freaky. We had a whole conversation today initiated by him and he was so lucid.

He offered me an English muffin, too. That's all he's eating these days. (Unless I cook the meal.). That was his diet in his early 20's. I declined the muffin and joked that though it was a delicacy, I was all set. He laughed. It reminded me of when my sister was here and we made a nice meal. H wasn't eating my food then (he thought I was poisoning him) and instead ate just corn bread with a fork and knife. Just corn bread while we ate steak, potatoes, grilled vegetables and a salad. He had offered my sister that instead of the meal! OMG! He was so out of his mind!

I wish I could share all these stories of odd behavior with him. Old h would be absolutely fascinated by these sorts of things. He just loved this sort of stuff.

And the show goes on . . .

[kml]

As for B12 levels he just had a physical and he goes to the doctor frequently. He has them test all that. I assume it would have been picked up?

Neither thyroid nor B12 levels would be on a routine blood test usually. You might just give his doctor a secret heads up that you are seeing some unusually paranoid behavior and ask if he could check these things next time. He probably won't talk to you because of HIPAA laws but you can still send him a note with your concerns.

He had a long conversation with S10 about bear species. He has some sort of obsession with bears attacking him in the woods. He talks about this a LOT. This is made most interesting by the fact that we live in SoCal 15 minutes from the beach.

Oh yes, we have a terrible problem with grizzlies here in San Diego lol.

[LoisB]

Ha,

I was reading about your preparations for bear attacks and the four horsemen... A few days ago, my youngest and I were walking the dog and happened upon a black bear meandering in the parking lot of our apartment complex. About a a 400-pounder and he was standing about 15 feet from us when we noticed him. He was a pretty big guy. He looked at me, with a sorta bored expression, and turned around and sauntered back to the woods. It's our second bear sighting since we moved here.

I shoulda been scared, but I wasn't. He was so beautiful and calm and lumbering. He reminded me to slow down. Take your time. Not that he couldn't have made a beeline for my face if he wanted to.

So, iffn you ever want to push some of your H's super-sensitive MLC buttons... tell him you are taking the boys to visit your friend in the Blue Ridge, so you can see some bears in person.

[HaWho]

KML - I don't know the name of his doctor and though he once left blood test results out, I didn't note the name of his primary. Too bad.

Lois - wow! That must have been a spectacular sight to see! I would love to see that part of the country; I've never been.

So just more weird MLC stuff here. S13 celebrated his birthday this weekend--yay! He is officially a teen (though he's been demonstrating the correlating behaviors for several months now).

S13 wanted to take a few buddies to this beach with huge waves and then grab dinner with them and have a sleepover. Remember how I noted that h offered to go run x errands? Well, those were for provisions for son's party and he never delivered! I have zero expectations anymore so I just rolled right on.

But the day of the party, he pulled one of my favorite stunts that he's learned in MLC. He waits until he knows I've done everything and then he offers help! One hour before we are to leave for the beach, he texts asking if I need anything! I said no thanks. My sister says when he does this I should send him a list 3 pages long, requiring trips to 4 different stores! Ha ha! He'd never make it home. (The last time I sent him with a list he grocery shopped at CVS even through there was a grocery store next door!!! I went back and returned it all the next day as everything was super expensive.)

So we are at the beach a few hours and in a huff h decides he is leaving! He says S13 is not talking or hanging out with him so he'll just go. And he does! Very mature. S is 13 and yep, he wants to hang with his peers, not sit on the sand with his parents. He is developmentally on track. H says he'll meet us for dessert. He really needs a warm pacifier.

Before he leaves he tells me that we need to have a regular family party like we used to do. He says this party stinks. He says he'll get a cake and we'll celebrate. I say fine; I'll make a nice breakfast the day of his bday.

A while later he texts me that he's picked up a cake and candles for s's official bday, which is the next day, and he tells me he's walked the dog. Seems the guilt of leaving set in? I thanked him.

At dessert time, the boys decide to grab icecream sundaes where we already are vs. closer to home. I tell h this as there won't be time for him to drive over. He sends me a sulky text back. He had taken S11 home with him and says that he'll take him for dessert as he's been waiting all afternoon to meet us. Me thinks that's a bit of projection there!

The next day we have breakfast with kids and S13's best friend. I ask h if he is going to eat. He has many allergies so he can't just eat what I make for us. He hesitates in answering. He says he's not sure. I know this is something weird from his childhood. So I say: well, if you're going to join us, I'd like there to be something for you to eat. But I don't want to make something if you're not eating. He says he'll eat whatever. But that's not true due to his allergies. So I say, I can make you x but only if you'll eat it. He says he will. And he gives me this really goofy grin. That was just exhausting.

Presents are super awkward. H had picked out a few on his own, which was thoughtful. But they are for a 10 year old!!! S13 is polite but not too interested. I think h thinks it's still 2013 and he is in denial/unaware that s is a teenager. This was all made especially awkward by the fact that s13 loved my gifts and couldn't hide it. H is out of touch. Funny thing is: s10 had friends over and they all loved the gifts h bought for S13, too. Calendar in the dorm room seems to be set at 2013.

Cake time was also weird. H bought what is his (h's) favorite cake! (Thankfully I'd already taken S13 out for sundaes with his friends.) What h picked out is definitely not S13's favorite cake. Well, it was thoughtful that he picked up A cake. But, guess it's beyond him to buy what S13 would have liked?!? I was surprised he put s's name on the cake vs. his own.

[mleigh4]

Lol HW. What an adventure you have going on over there!

First of all, my S doesn't hang out with me when his friends are around, and he is 9! I don't sulk, I step back and enjoy seeing my baby become more and more independent. It's normal, not personal.

The presents and the cake.....so interesting.

Yay for S becoming 13! I remember hitting that mark, it was huge. Sounds like you gave him a great day, good job mama!

You continue to amaze me with your grace and patience. God must have placed you with your H for a reason! But seriously, I am glad you have your emergency kit and protection from bears in beautiful SoCal.

Love to you HW!
M

[kml]

KML - I don't know the name of his doctor and though he once left blood test results out, I didn't note the name of his primary. Too bad.

Darn. Is your H a reader? There's a fantastic book about B12 deficiency written by Sally Pacholok, called Could It Be B12? Very easy read, written for the lay person, maybe you could buy it and just happen to leave it lying around the house?

[job]

The book kml recommended is excellent. I have pernicious anemia (B-12 deficiency) and had the testing done when I was 34. I actually was beginning to think I was losing my mind, my memory was mush and I couldn't even think straight enough to add 2-2 to = 4, I walked like I was walking on a rolling ship and was completely out of breath before I reached the middle of a city block. I also have some nerve damage because my doctor at the time thought I just needed additional iron because I was so tired all of the time and just wanted to sleep. It took me well over 2 years before I had a health issue that continue to repeat itself every six week before anyone would listen to me.

I am now giving myself a shot every month to keep my B-12 level stable and I have my blood tested every six months to ensure that everything stays level and I remain healthy.

Just my two cents...it is well worth reading the book. B12 deficiency doesn't just happen to old people. It's happening more and more in the younger generations.

[kml]

Job, I didn't know that about you!
There's a new movie out called Sally Pacholok - a kinda weird cross between a whistleblower movie and a Lifetime romance movie, but you would appreciate it. I rented it for $2.99 on Vimeo.

[job]

kml,
I normally don't share much about my personal life on here, but low levels of B-12 and Pernicious Anemia are issues that I have had more than my fair share of experience with.

I'll have to check out Sally's movie. I'm always interested in learning more about Pernicious Anemia and/or low levels of B-12 due to diet, etc.

[Esame]

As for me, I feel like I am in a good place. It's the best emotional, physical and spiritual place I have been in yet since MLC struck my life. I feel my old calmness returned to me. I used to be a very calm, patient person.

I had a dream that he left and I was fine with it. I accepted it and looked forward to my future. For the first time I knew I could pull my kids through it. I am already doing it. Most days, despite the fact that I live in this crazy limbo, I look forward to my future, whatever it may be. I look at what I have survived in my life and I realize I can withstand some pretty hard knocks

HW it sounds like you are at a good place considering the amount of crazy you have to deal with. I recently had similar thoughts, about the kids being ok without him I mean. When this first started I was mortified at the prospect of raising my children alone, but I am getting used at the idea now.

I admire your patience, I really do! Also your truth dart theory is amazing, I tried to implement it too, and when I start talking to H again I sure will use truth darts again.

[HaWho]

Thanks KML, Job and Esame.

Well, I've been pretty busy over here. This week S now 13 (yikes) decided he wanted to redocorate his room and keep it clean from now on! He typically leaves his clothes all over the floor and his dresser drawers wide open. It usually looks like he was just robbed. Anyway, we spruced it up and he seems to be lying dormant in their A LOT now. That's two boys (one being h) neatly incubating in their cocoons. S's room is all done and it looks great. I go in a lot and tell him I want to move in, too. That gets son laughing.

A little drama with h and s13. A few weeks ago I had mentioned a road trip that sounded interesting. H said we should go at some point. I said sure and assumed he forgot.

But then h decided to ask if we all wanted to go. S13 was a little dismissive as he wanted to do something with his friends instead. S13 could have been more polite. But boy did it escalate! H texted me that he no longer wanted to go as S was being an ingrate. Then he told me he would never invite him on another vacation ever! Oh dear. We were texting back and forth, mostly I was trying to explain that S is a teenager and needs guidance. I told him none of this is personal. S just had his annual physical and his pediatrician said these next 4 years will be hard. (Hah! My h has already gone crazy so I know a thing or two about hard.)

I actually ended up going to the dreaded stinky dorm room. I took two minutes and explained to h that these are formative years for S. That he will make mistakes and needs tremendous support, loads of forgiveness and heaps of unconditional love. H was hostile all around. The tiny slight from S13 was blown all out of proportion. Later h went to S13's room and softened. I heard him smooth it over and talk to him. I didn't expect h to smooth it over. I talked to him so that maybe someday, if he wakes up he can remember that I tried reasoning with him. I remembered that when I woke up from my own depression.

We did end up going away even though I was exhausted by all the drama and kind of didn't want to go anymore. But it was a nice getaway! We went to a wooded area and h was ever on the lookout for bears. Maybe he went to face his fears?!? Who knows.

There was a funny moment where we were in the grocery store and h asked me to read ingredients on the bottle because the light was bad! Yeah, right! It's always dark in those grocery stores, eh? He still cannot admit his vision has shifted due to age!

At bedtime, it was awkward. H had said that the boys would sleep upstairs and "mom and I" would be downstairs. A while later I checked out downstairs and was relieved to see there was a twin bed adjacent to the master room. Phfew!

But, then somehow things got re-shuffled. S11 decided he wanted to sleep on the living room couch because the sheets in his room were scratchy. (He is my little Prince and the Pea!!). But after I came out of the bathroom from brushing my teeth S13 was not on the couch and not in the room with S13. When I went downstairs, he was on the twin bed! I was about to go upstairs to figure out where I would sleep when h met me. I told him I could sleep upstairs. He said no, it was ok. So we slept in the same bed. We just read for about a half hour and then said goodnight. I felt nothing. Kind of scary.

In the middle of the night, our arms happened to be touching and I also felt absolutely nothing. No anger, no sadness, no nostalgia, etc.

Last night I told h something from outside the dorm room. It's so rare to see any humor from the MLCer. H cracked a joke. He said he would open the door but he was relaxing in his cheetah print boxers. This is the sort of way he used to joke all the time. I laughed and said "well, whatever floats your boat in there."

This morning I left early to play tennis. When I came back h and sons were out. And the dorm room door was left wide open. I thought it would be so funny to throw a stuffed bear in there, under his pillow, maybe? I didn't go near the room. A package came for him and I left it in his hallway.

[job]

HaWho,
Your h is a work in progress. He's still very much acting like a kid and his feelings were hurt when your son didn't want to go on the road trip. However, you did an excellent job of explaining how things were going to be up and down w/S13 for the next few years. I think he heard what you had to say and I'm glad your h smoothed things over w/his son. Truthfully, I think they are now at the same age. Maybe your h will discover how nice and clean his s's room is and decide to clean his up too. Competition does run wild w/the MLCer. If you want to try an experiment, mention how clean s's room is and how much better it smells...let's see if your h takes the hints.

I'm glad you and your family took the road trip. How did your h sleep in the bed w/you? Was he hugging the edge or did he sleep in the middle of his side w/out moving?

I don't think your h is forgetting to close and lock his dorm room door. I think he's starting to feel more comfortable in the fact that you aren't going in there, as well as testing to see if you will.

Overall, I think you are handling your situation very well. You've got the patience of a saint.

[2Times2Many]

HaWho,

Once again, your patience amazes me. The idea of putting a stuffed bear in the dorm room made me chuckle. Love your sense of humor.

When my kids were in their teens I used to joke with them that when you hit the teen-age years you became brain dead and remain so until you hit 20. Over the years, whenever they'd do something dumb, I'd just joke that it's okay, their brains would start working again in a few years. They knew it was all in fun and a couple of times I actually heard, "Sorry, Mom. You know I'm brain dead!"

Interesting turn of events regarding the sleeping sitch. I think we reach a point where our expectations are at or are near zero, so it doesn't surprise me that you didn't have much in the way of feelings while in the same the bed with him. If/when the sitch improves, I imagine that would change.

xoxoxo
2T

[ciluzen]

HaWho,

I'm always amazed at how well you are able to deal with your H and his antics. As Job said, you do have the patience of a saint. It seems like your H, though, is starting to listen more to you and (as shown by actually trying to smooth things over with your S) have some respect for how you parent and see things. If that's true, that's a big thing!
Your stories of how you do things are very educational for your fellow posters. Thank you for your wisdom and example!

[HaWho]

Thanks Job, 2T and Ciluzen,

Job - he slept in the middle and seemed very comfortable doing so. At one point in the night, I heard him leave bed for a few minutes and then return. I was facing the middle of the bed. And he faced the middle. I could sense him watching me and it weirded me out. But I just pretended I was asleep.

When h came up to smooth things over with S13, I was in the room. H complimented how neat it was and how much he liked it. He also said s's room was better, which it is, as h is in the smallest room of the house. And I am pretty sure the next day, I heard h cleaning up his room a bit. I heard him throwing away old papers. So maybe he has already cleaned up the room to compete with S13? But, I will compliment and try your experiment Job.

I have noticed that the last 3 times I "reasoned" w/h that he followed my advice. For those coming after me, when I was talking to him, although he was dismissive and hostile, when I left he softened and ultimately took my advice. What has worked is to be quick, say little, don't disagree, just quietly make my point and leave. I limit it to 2 minutes no matter what.

Here is an example of how warped h's thinking is. When I went in to talk to him about the fact that these next years with S13 will be hard, I told h that it is proven that there is a regression in logic that occurs in the teenage years; just as 2T pointed out! H told me he didn't really believe that! Um, okay. I didn't say anything but I am witnessing the regression in S13!!! (This week son told me he wants to pick classes based on his friends!!! Uhh, no. I told him that's why there are placement and standardized tests!)

And then h told me that he had absolutely no difficulties whatsoever in the teenage years! In fact he basically insinuated he was perfect in the teenage years and they were all easy. Yeah, sure! And that's why he so put together at 47. I pictured a steam roller and just rolled right over that stupidity; smoothing that nonsense in my head.

One last thing. The other day h made food for S11 before his practice. This is noteworthy as he only takes care of himself these days. I came home and he had made him 2 hotdogs, 10 chicken nuggets, 2 carrots and 2 bananas! OMG, S11 is 70 lbs. so 80% of it was uneaten. But I complimented. I thanked him and in front of h, told S11 he was fortunate to have such a nice meal and a dad who cared enough to make it.

An hour later when they left for practice, I happened to look at my phone and there were two messages from h from an hour ago asking if I was coming home to make S his food! I am so glad I didn't see them. I would have come home angry. H was home and yet texting me to make food for S11 like he was the brother and not the father.

MLC is just pure crazy.

[mleigh4]

HW, I remember reading something about how the active brain of teenagers changes because of hormonal changes. Think of PMS, it's that for years straight! Can you imagine? They need patience and understanding during these times.

I am glad you explained this to your H and I definitely see a pattern where he is listening to you. I agree with Job, seems he is at S13 mentality most times.

You are handling things so great. Keep it up!

Xxoo M

[HaWho]

Mleigh - I cannot imagine that. That's awful.

So I think I need some advice or maybe just support. My anniversary is tomorrow and I feel like my mind is pell-mell. I am 99% sure that I am not buying a card.

First, something tells me I am not going to find an appropriate one that fits my marital situation. Just a hunch. Ha ha. Secondly, I was drop kicked so what on earth am I "celebrating?" How crazy is it to think I can say "happy anniversary!"? My best shot would be to buy one of those cards where I can record my own message. "H: FYI- this anniversary I am still trying to outlast this craziness that is your MLC. Know that while you are hiding in your locked dorm room, I am thinking of you."

And yet, I feel like I *should* buy a card. I have slowed myself down and tried to figure out why I feel this way. I think part of it is I am trying to be the lighthouse. But, I think I am muddling things. Maybe this is the sort of thing that I feel I should do because it's always what I have done? It's probably a knee-jerk thing--like the heart that keeps beating after the brain is dead?

I don't think he is going to give me a card. But in my head I have played it out if he did. And what seems appropriate is to give a quick truth dart rather than handing a card back. My first instinct is to give a card back. But then, honestly, I like to run around with my iron and my board and fix every crease. But that's not my job. So the 180 is to do nothing or give a gentle truth dart.

I just cannot quiet my mind on this. And then, I just go and repeat this whole crazy thought process.

[Brubeck]

I have already thought about this for myself, and my own conclusion is to not bother. Maybe buy a card and keep it handy in case he buys you a card.

If your H - like so many MLCers - doesn't have the presence of thought to fully absorb every day life, he sure isn't going to be mindful of a wedding anniversary.

We all want to be the Lighthouse, that's why we're standing. With everything you've been doing and continue to detail in your thread, you already are the Lighthouse.

[Brubeck]

Oh, I forgot - thank you for your posts to my thread, HaWho. I followed your advice about letting W keep her babysitting money.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

From Eagles11's thread:

Eagle11- I have been following along but not posted much as you are receiving amazing advice!

Do not let that be a reason not to post, I remember just being glad that people were posting on my thread even if it was just a hi, this [censored] you can do it, by the way hi.

This goes for all of you. : )

However, I have a live-in MLCer and I just want to tell you to be very, very careful in protecting your privacy regarding your posts. My h has snooped on me, too.

He has tried to check my FB and email account by guessing my password. Also, he once asked to borrow my phone to make a call because his was "low on battery." He took my phone with him in the other room and I know he combed through it. Be ready for such crafty requests.

My h is much more computer savvy than I am. I do all my posts on my iPhone (probably I will be blind in a year) but I worry he may have installed spying software on my laptop or Mac before I changed passwords. My understanding is sometimes these are nearly impossible to detect? I set everything to private browsing first on my phone.

HaWho, if you need any suggestions on how to protect yourself electronically let me know, I'm pretty good at it, or you can even google some of your questions to get some answers and hopefully feel a little more secure.

Strangly, I would feel a little hope that your husband is snooping on your stuff, sounds weird? Well if he didn't care at all he wouldn't.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, I would make your anniversary a day of kindness and compassion. If your H doesn't mention it, then I would breeze on by and not even acknowledge it.

However, I would have a card in reserve saying something you feel able to say with no 'side' to it. For example - thank you for the many years we have shared & best wishes, Ha Who.

JMHO of course, but I would leave any truth darts for another time. xx

[kml]

I agree - have a card ready in case he comes up with something. Decide to honor your years of marriage (the good years of the past) by being kind and compassionate. And otherwise, just let him take the lead. If he doesn't say anything oyu don't have to either. If he says or does something nice, reward it, don't shoot it down - remember your dog training. Reward the good behaviors, ignore the bad ones.

[Wonka]

Ellie...who are you calling a 'dog' here?!

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Have a card, nothing overly sentimental.
BUT, do not be disappointed if you don't use it. OK?

I would actually have 2-3 cards with varying responses, depending on what she gave me. I'd be like, oh I got you a card too, hold on, and then go and get the one that best fit the situation.

[kml]

Just sayin'......it works!

[job]

HaWho,

Didn't we go through this last year? Yep, we sure did. I found your posting and have copied it here so that others can see how things played out last year.

""Celebrated" 15th anniversary a few days ago. It was a strange day all around. A year ago, H had forgotten 14th anniversary and when I suggested going out to dinner the day of, he monstered at me in front of the kids. I was rounding out the last few months in my own multi-year depression and didn't really know what to make of the monstering. Ignorant days where I knew nothing of MLC.

I had a small gift for H and planned to bake something simple for him as he is a foodie. The dessert was something quick that, if he remembered anniversary I could whip up. When he came to me months ago and decided he wanted to work on R, I said I wanted to do something for our anniversary this year, just something simple.

Morning of, it seemed he had forgotten. Then mid-day he asked if we could all go to dinner to celebrate the anniversary. I said yes. When I came home there were flowers and I thanked him. He insisted I had forgotten as I said nothing about it in the am. (He certainly could have said something first, too, and given what happened on anniversary last year, I really wasn't enthusiastic about initiating celebration.) I told him I did not forget but also did not remind him of last year. He seemed hurt like I really did forget. I tried to re-assure him again. When I presented gift he believed me.

Baked him a dessert and gave him a gift. It all felt very awkward-like going through the motions. Could not help but think of happiness we felt 15 years ago and the pain of today. 15 years ago, never would I have imagined my seemingly stable H spinning in MLC. Oi!

As H ate dessert he made a passive aggressive shot that I had barely done any baking the last 10 years. I felt myself just drift away. I said nothing but the stiffening of my demeanor said it all. He tried to butter me up by initiating other unrelated conversations. I went though the motions as one kid was present but mentally I was checked out. And he knew it."

Ha-Who, I would get a very simple card. He ate your dessert last year and then had to make a comment about your baking. Maybe this year, get him his own set of baking pans. LOL!

[HaWho]

Ok- heard you all loud and clear. Thank you everyone. You guys are amazing. Sotto - I like your wording. Job - thanks for re-posting that. I am glad I wrote about the anniversary last year. This way, I can compare if he insults me again!

Some typical MLC stuff going on here. The other night at dinner, h was telling stories from when he was s13's age. These are stories I have heard before but are now more interesting in the context of his MLC. One thing that was new was that he mentioned his mother was gone a lot (working) and he did in fact have to cook a lot of his meals on his own. (Job, you called it!) He seemed really sad and I swear this is all triggered by him seeing the culinary care I pay towards the kids. His LL is cooked meals and desserts.

Last night we had too many ripe bananas and I made bread. My kids don't really like this but h does. He ate the whole loaf!! (First he asked if we wanted any. I said no and thanked him for asking.) Then, poof, it was gone.

He has talked about his dad a bit. His father was an extremely selfish individual; he walked away when he and his brother were in diapers and paid virtually nothing. In the spring h was sort of defending his father, saying that his father always did what he wanted to do. The insinuation was that his father lived an authentic life by doing whatever he wanted?!? Trust me, when we met he knew these decisions were wrong and that is a big reason I was attracted to him. Anyway, last night he was (again) telling the kids his dad was very selfish. Let's hope this perception sticks.

Then, in the car he was telling s11 that he is old. S said h was not. H said he was. Then he imparted a cheerful speech in which he told S that you are young for a while, then middle aged for just a short time ('til 45) and then you are old for a lonnnnng time. I just pictured Eeyore.

Also noteworthy, he came in today talking about bears again. I can hear the collective groan. This time I asked him (the curiosity has been killing me) why he was so interested in bears. He looked surprised; like he did not realize he talked a lot about bears. He told me it was because of the place we were at recently. But, he's been talking about them long before then.

Anyway, the topic today was that you're most likely to be killed by a grizzly. Next most vicious species is the brown bear. Third is the black bear. Still with the bears.

Tonight, out of the clear blue he asked me if I would go to visit his grandmother's grave with him when we return east for the holidays. She passed away in the spring. I said yes. I know death is hard for him and she adored him. She was more like an aunt than a grandmotherly type.

Speaking of going back east, h has informed me that he rented a two bedroom place. He said the kids will have their own room.

[HaWho]

Oh and Jack3Beans - thanks for the offer of technological support! I did Google this a while ago and that's what scared me. "Experts" we're saying that some spyware can be so well hidden that it cannot be detected.

I have an old Mac, one of the sunflower ones! I love it. It needs a serious upgrading though. I am thinking I will bring it to someone who can blow it out and upgrade everything and this would give me peace of mind that if h installed anything it's wiped clean.

[job]

HaWho,

So now you can understand his comments about cooking. If you are patient long enough and can really listen to what he's saying, he will reveal a lot about his childhood and then you can actually see how it impacted him and the things he's doing and saying in crisis.

I think it's a wonderful idea about visiting his grandmother's grave. It may give him some comfort and when you do visit it, step away for a bit and give him some time to visit w/her. I'm sure he's going to have a heartfelt talk w/her.

I do hope the anniversary goes well and that you can enjoy it. Keep those expectations very low.

Enjoy the weekend!

[HaWho]

Job - yep, now I know why most of his MLC has centered on the kitchen. Oi!

Get ready for this MLC logic. Job, you will love this one. End of the day Saturday, h gives me my mail from the DMV, (Department of Motor Vehicles, for those of you out of the US). It's a notice to re-new my registration, which was due mid-July!!! H usually gets the mail first and this is the first I have heard of this.

Now, I still have no credit card. We had a fraud attempt and the company was to re-issue it. Last week, I asked h if it arrived. He said no. It could have been true as it was around the time it should be arriving. But, he probably was lying.

Today I was heading to the beach with a car full of 6 kids. Labor Day weekend, cops out in full force, no registration and no credit card. Awesome. So before I leave, I say to h: "has that credit card arrived?" (It's been two weeks, so I KNOW it has!). He says yes, but we shouldn't use it. I think it is safe to assume he has HIS credit card activated. I tell him my registration is expired, cops will be out, I have a car full of kids and I want the credit card so I can call a taxi if I get towed. He tells me I shouldn't have waited so long to take care of it! I kindly tell him this is the first notice I have received, though I doubt it's the first that has been sent. And I remind him HE checks the mail. He gives me the credit card. Unbeleiveable his chutzpah.

He leaves and texts me that he will take care of it for me on Tuesday and jokes even though I am being a "nasty pussycat". (This is the closet he will come to apologizing.). I say thanks but I can do it. I also say he needs to give me my mail.

Here's where the MLC logic comes in. He tells me it's no big deal as this is only a "fix it" notice! Yeah, sure, the DMV is known for being gracious, right?. Then he tells me "you'll be ok!" Pre-MLC h was not like this. He liked things in order and knew the DMV was merciless.

I text back and say, yeah, now that I have a credit card I WILL be ok. So that I can take a cab if they tow me (and the 6 kids)!

The registration is 6 weeks overdue!! I die laughing at his comment that this is just a friendly "fix it" notice. Does that mean it's optional that I take care of it?

So I text him, that if I get pulled over I will explain to the officer that he said I will be "ok" because this is just a friendly "fix it" notice. I tell him I am sure the officer will excuse me. Then I say, I can just show the officer his text to cash in on my free DMV hallpass! OMG-I am dying laughing at how stupid the logic is!!

As for the anniversary, before 7 AM h sent me a text from his downstairs bedroom wishing me a happy anniversary with a smiley face. Then he said he wanted to lock it in first so he could not be accused of forgetting. He said he had x errands to run and would be back mid-day.

I wished him a happy one back and thanked him for the years (thanks Sotto). An hour later he told me he'd be back earlier than expected if I needed to go do stuff. I made waffles for the kids as he was walking in. I asked him if he wanted some. He said no, but I could tell he wanted them.

He happened to "appear" when the waffle iron beeped and said they smelled great. I offered again and he ate them. He complimented when he finished them.

I cleaned the house. We were all home doing our own thing. H took s11 out for a bit. Then s11 called me from h's phone asking if I wanted something from the restaurant from which they were ordering. I said sure. I love when he hides behind the kids like this. I want to text him "you can offer me food yourself! Don't worry, I don't think you are courting me when you do so!"

Anniversary was a routine day. At the end, I ran some errands and returned the card I had bought.

[job]

HaWho,

Go the the DMV first thing Tuesday morning and explain that you never got the first notice and your h just handed you the notice you have on you on Saturday. They should be able to take care of this for you. After all, it appears that the mail has had some mail carriers trashing mail, etc. in the last couple of months.

Please do not rely on him to be honest about the mail. If he's been hiding it, that's passive aggressive behavior. Does your DMV office have it set up on line so that you can view your records so that you know when the registration is due? Also, take time to check your tag to see the month and year to ensure this doesn't happen again.

This is not a fix it notice. This is a failure notice and this can affect your car insurance as well.

[Bee29]

Hi HaWho, I wanted to write yesterday but then my son came to talk and before I knew it it was passed midnight (here in Europe). So, I was waiting the whole day to see how your anniversary went. Well, what can I say? Like you, I was not sure what to do this year, so I just bought a small fancy chocolate bar (not a box, just a bar). We were together at his parents place attending a weeding of his cousin later that day (it was not an easy day for me...). In the morning when we were getting ready he asks me "what's the date is today"? Like he did not know. He never forgets dates even if he forgets everything else these days. So I reminded him what the day was and told him that I still consider it important day in my life and gave him the chocolate. He was very moved and reached out for me and kissed me. That was the last real kiss. For my b-day I got a long hug... Anyway, I don't think we can expect much of them since they do not consider themselves married anymore. And I know that I will not bother with any present (not even a card) next year.

[Huddy]

In the UK, witholding your mail is a criminal offence. My W decided to try that game with me and I had to remind her it was an offence. It soon stopped. Another sad piece in the MLC jigsaw.

[HaWho]

Job and Huddy - could be wrong, but I don't think he did it on purpose. I think he just flakes. Could be wrong, but he is just so disorganized in MLC. He used to be meticulously organized. Maybe I am giving him too much credit. Who knows.

Bee - you did the right thing FOR YOU. It means something to you and so you honored the day. Nice job taking the high road. And probably he was fishing for recognizing the occasion by asking the date.

So I am at the beach two hours and when I return to my car? Yep, a ticket for expired registration.

I text h a picture of the ticket. And I tell him I can't take care of this until Wednesday. I ask to borrow one of his 2 (YES TWO) cars or tell him I will rent a car for the day. I actually have a few appointments that day and I will be parking and driving in busy areas. I bet if they catch me operating the car I could be towed.

So after seeing the ticket, h texts me that this is "fishy" to him! He says I have been unregistered for 6 weeks and now I get the ticket?

Unbelievable. I text back that is is Labor Day weekend and I am parked at the beach!! I might as well walk into the police department and ask if anyone can sell me cocaine. Cops are at the beach in droves: ticketing people walking dogs on the beach, smoking on the beach, looking for open alcohol drinking, etc.

He texts back smiley faces. Then he said it just seems awfully coincidental.

I text back that, yes, I left 6 children swimming in the beach with the very largest waves around. I tell him I ran up and down the streets trying to flag down a cop in the hopes of getting a ticket. When I couldn't find a cop I called the police on myself because I like tickets on my record and then I love paying the fine. He sends back smiley faces. Who knows if he recognizes the stupidity of his paranoia. Probably not.

Then he texts me asking if I am going to be home soon as S13 has practice. I text back telling him he cracks me up. Last week he flaked and went out on practice day, when just one day before h said he'd take him to practice! When he realized he missed it, he said he didn't remember us talking about his practice and the kids said: well, we did and it was a long conversation. And now this week he is awake and supervising me!

I take a chance and tell him it's like he has multiple personalities. He texts back jokingly asking if my fingers hurt from all my texting nonsense. I say no but tell him that my ribs hurt from laughing. Which is true. It's too ridiculous.

Then I ask him if he's been tested for B12. (Shout out to KML.). I tell him I just had my physical and I understand B12 deficiency is a common problem but not tested frequently. (Both statements are true, although, it is not my primary that said this; it was KML that did.)

He asks why I suddenly ask about B12 and questions if he missed a text. I am sure it seems like a non sequitur to him, but it dovetails with his paranoia that I did something to get myself this ticket!

I play dumb and say, it just came up and I am spreading the word. He says he'll check his results. I hope he does. I may ping him in a few days just to check, out of curiosity, if his levels were ok. He worries about his health so this may actually stay on his checklist. Gosh, if their is a to-do list, cannot even imagine what that thing must look like.

[job]

HaWho,
Yes, it could be done on purpose or he could have misplaced the notice, i.e., just like the laptop. I do find it interesting that he wasn't going to tell you about the credit card.

Now, I'll a story about a good friend of mine who got a ticket for an expired registration. She got a ticket in a parking lot and then the car was impounded to ensure she didn't drive it. Because she's not had the time to go and pay the fine, as well the registration updated, her license has now been suspended until she takes care of the fine. Also, her insurance notified her that they know about the lapse in registration.

You may need to have the car towed because the police are out looking for drunks and other drivers driving fast, etc., because of the holiday weekend. I would hate to see you pulled over and then possibly taken to jail and the car impounded and more fine on top of the one you got today.

Bottom line...you need your car registration done as soon as possible. You will probably have to pay the ticket while you are at DMV before they'll review the registration for you.

Good luck and I hope you get home w/o another ticket, being jailed or your car being impounded.

[Esame]

HaWho at least you got a "Happy Anniversary". My anniversary was yesterday and we didn't even say hi.

Other than that, your H'a crazy is holding strong, keep patient, you are doing amazingly well as always xxx

[ciluzen]

That's so...MLC! Seems like he is trying so hard to control things, any thing, but wow! You handled that with humor and class as per your usual, but I'd fight that ticket. Explain the craziness to the DMV people, as well.

As for the anniversary, mine was all crickets (and that was when he'd still make contact). I got insight into that recently, though. I guess H was talking to one of the office ladies that I am friends with and he actually asked her how he should handle our anniversary! She apparently asked him why he would do anything if he didn't value our marriage. Mystery solved for me. So, yeah. Your H is still in the game! I'll repeat Esame's words...stay strong and patient as you are. He's still there baking.

[HaWho]

Job - since our credit card company issued us a new card w/ a chip, we have had 2 attempts at fraudulent charges. H is now paranoid, not that it takes much these days. In fact, he had accused me of being the cause of one of the fraudulent charges on our own card! I called the company and they told me that the questionable charge was made in the mid-west on a Saturday. As we are on the west coast and I was here all day, that finally shut h up. He is a real life Barney Fife.

Esame and Cil- yes, this anniversary was an improvement over the last in that, he did not insult me this year. Also, he initiated saying happy anniversary. However, the last decent anniversary we had was 2011. 2012 he spewed at me in front of the kids! He was so angry all the time! (2013 was a hot mess. I lived my days trying to steer clear of him.) 26 months after spewing on the anniversary, he bombed me and months after that I learned he had been in full on anger MLC mode back in 2012. Point is: it took 4 years for him to say happy anniversary. No gift, just a text. There's the glacial pace of MLC.

For those coming after me, here are some MLC gems.

As I sit still and watch, h is still completely nuts. He is still in full lockdown mode à la Fort Knox. Whether he goes to the bathroom (2 feet from the dorm room) or to the garage, he locks his door.

I also see tons of controlling issues, mostly centering on his 2 cars. I borrowed one until I re-registered mine. H asked me when I was going to be done with it as every day I had it was another day I could scratch it. He is in love with his cars. Seriously. So I asked him if he has ever dated one of his cars. He didn't get it. I clarified, asking if he has ever bought flowers or chocolates for one of his cars. He scoffed. But s13 jabbed h in between his eyes and said: "you love your cars more than us." Ouch. H quickly walked away; he went in the hall and played catch with s11. This is his pattern when he is confronted with a harsh truth: run and hide.

He is also ordering spare parts for MLC car. There are already two used car doors in the garage. A week ago a part came in the mail. And the other day I heard him set an appointment to go look at more parts. Keeping the cars perfect at all times, keeps him very busy as there's always something over which to fret! The other day there was bird poop on one car. S13 pointed it out and h had his next mission.

The other day h ran carpool for me and came home asking s13 who one of the boys in the car was. This boy is a friend of son's and he has been here quite a bit over the summer. He even slept over a few times. He lives two streets over. S13 told him all this and h insisted the boy must have changed his look! S13 laughed and said nope.

I later texted him and told him I was concerned about his confusion on this. I asked him if he ever followed up to see if his B12 levels were ok. He spewed back that he had no mental problems (surprise, surpise! He thinks he's A OK!). Then he told me he has never been good with names and faces! This is not some random person; it is someone who actually comes into our house. So weird.

Maybe he will secretly have his B12 levels checked. Or, maybe if he ever wakes up he will remember that I voiced concern over him. When I was in my depression, I do remember him voicing concern over me.

This morning, the second I woke up, I remembered the day we left the hospital with our first son. As we wheeled him out, there was an older woman (in her 70's), very elegant, sitting outside. She admired the new baby and said "have a beautiful life."

[job]

HaWho,

I have been doing some reading on the new cards w/chips and apparently they aren't as secure as we think. I'm glad you called the company and got that straightened out.

Now, about the obsession of the cars. This is his drug of choice right now in MLC. It's not a woman, gambling, drinking, etc....but his passion is cars. Some will go to extremes w/their passions. My father's passion was fishing all of the time. Some do gardening or pick up other hobbies and then there are those who become workaholics.

Eventually you will have enough spare parts in the garage to open a used parts store. It will be interesting to see what he does w/all of these parts. Does he or can he work on cars of does he need someone who does this sort of stuff to do it for him? Look out...he's going to be spending quite a bit on parts if he continues down this road.

BTW, how did you make out at the DMV? Get everything straightened out?

Hang in there! Maybe he'll get the idea of putting the front portion of a car on his wall for wall art. LOL!

[HaWho]

Job - yes, my car is all registered.

As for the parts, no, he can't do the work himself.

I hate to be a downer but I am struggling to see how he can wake up from all this. He is in a pretty deep hole and overall, he just keeps digging further away from reality.

[job]

HaWho,

Replay can take a long time. He's exhibited anger and depression along w/some crazymaking behavior, but he's content right now being there. You've not rocked his boat, nor have you treated him badly and put pressure on him for anything. Had you done these things, he most likely would have left and been a PITA. I know it's frustrating and it seems like it will be this way forever, but when they are living at home, the time does go by so slowly. A year isn't that long for him to be orbiting the moon in replay.

Since he's still contintuing to dig deeper into the hole, this is most likely what he needs to do to face those issues. He's not touched on the really deep, dark depression yet because he's still in a "holding" pattern w/replay. He will move from replay when he's ready and that could be a while.

Continue as you have been and always remember to breathe! You really are one of the lucky ones that he's not gone into the true monster mode towards you and the boys. Just leave him be unless the auto parts get to be too much and take up entirely too much space.

Continue to watch the financials. He may very well take off in the spending arena.

[Huddy]

My W's thing is to buy clothes. She never used to buy lots of clothes, but now she can't stay away from the shops.

We have chip and pin in the UK and it is very secure. I think in the US, the technology is slightly different as here in the UK, fraud dropped by 90%.

In house separation is quite wearing. Hold on in there!

[tfish08]

Mine is all about football. He has to own at least 20 bronco shirts and about the same in ball caps. He showed up to s12 football game with a his broncos shirt...hat..and his bronco stadium chair...lol mind you son's colors are red and white.

[mleigh4]

Hi HW. I follow but don't really have much advice, I blew the in house separation we had, I could not do it! But I think you are doing a great job.

Just wanted to say hi, sending good thoughts your way

[LouR]

Hi HaWho, I'm with mleigh, I don't have much to add as my h ran as far away as he could as fast as he could. I really admire your patience and calm, I don't feel I would have been able to do what you are, your own experience has helped you stay strong and determined to allow your h time to find his way through this.

I would just watch the finances closely, your h has not shown much high spending but does not mean he wont add it to the list.

You show such compassion H, you often relate back to your own experience, so I will too - how many times do you think h wondered if you would ever come out of your depression? .....you did and look how far you have come.

I am sending you love n hugs your way xoxo

[HaWho]

Nice to hear from you all: Job, Huddy, Tfish (you have been missed!), MLeigh and Lou.

Lou- really good point about how long my h wondered when my own depression would end.

It's pretty much status quo over here in Kookooville. Recently, I did get a quick snapshot of h's thinking. Via text he complained about something really stupid. I can't even remember what it was but basically he was (again) insinuating that we were all a burden. This is not good DB but I texted back that maybe he would get lucky and the three of us would die in a car crash so he could go live on that boat all by himself. (This is something he said in front of us all when he was showing S11 some stretches and he felt S11 wasn't stretching correctly! S11 and I left for the grocery store as s was so hurt and within minutes h "appeared" there asking to go out for smoothies. This is the closest h comes to apologizing.)

Anyway he texted back: "the three of you? No. Not the three of you. Just you. You have ruined my whole adult life."

I responded sorry you feel that way. And then I just rolled right along. It's official: I have alligator skin. (I love how he is happy with the kids but I ruined his whole adult life?!? Of course without me, these particular kids would not even be in his life. Maybe he has regressed so far he no longer understands basic science?!?) Looks like I am still the source of all his problems even though there are corpses that have less alone time than he does.

We had a dinner conversation the other night and I think mentally, s13 is more mature than h. H said a really ignorant comment and s13 questioned his logic. H could not back it up and it was all awkward as he is an "adult" in theory. S13 asked h how h's logic fixes x basic world problem and h had no answer. S13 said: shouldn't you be trying to make things better rather than just making comments that don't progress anything?

Hmm, it's just plain old weird this regression I am witnessing.

A few days after I told h I thought he seems confused and recommended he check his B12 level, he texted me back telling me his logic on a small financial move he made. He told me: "see? I am sharp as a tack."

I validated and we joked around a bit but it was hard not to bring up his paranoia. At some point I will need to drop hints on that. But as so much of it centers on me, I feel like I need to somehow get him to trust me more before I drop hints that he is in the deep end, like Mariana Trench deep.

Speaking of which, this week he announced he has an appointment for his physical! I know he had one in the spring but he has been a bit of hypochondriac so I know that he is going to have his B12 level checked.

As for me? All is well. I am quite busy with the kids. I am still hiking and playing tennis.

[job]

HaWho,

Your h sounds like he's talking to his mother. Have you been in his life his entire adult life? I wonder how he thinks you did this? After all, you two created two great sons and that certainly didn't happen in a petri dish way back when. LOL!

OMG! Your 13 yr old has more going on than your h! Your son talks w/a level head and I'm sure your h didn't appreciate him speaking up.

Well, I hope the doctor realizes what is going on w/him and gives him some AD's. He really is in KooKooville these days. B12 vitamins would help him a bit w/the depression and some of that paranoia going on, but it's not a miracle cure.

I sincerely hope that you aren't taking what he's saying to heart. He's just an emotional mess babbling and is saying things w/o really thinking them through.

I'm glad you've got other activities to help relieve some of the stress and helps you to keep your focus elsewhere.

[HaWho]

Job - I met him when he was 28. I began dating him when he was 29. And trust me, he was chasing me; I was not chasing him. In fact, we started dating in the summer and that Thanksgiving he was hurt that I did not invite him to my family's!

I was 23 and felt like we had time. I was exclusive with him (and vice versa) but I saw no need to rush. I was 23!!! Honestly, I was not really ready to introduce him at Thanksgiving as A) we'd only just begun dating B) my family does not take "holiday dates" lightly and so C) my family would have read this as a serious relationship so then D) I was feeling pressure with all this. And to my family he would have lost credibility as they would have asked: why are you so serious with this guy you JUST met. Plus, if it didn't work out my family would probably not take the next person as seriously.

I did like him and I did not want to hurt his feelings so I invited him. But, it felt too fast for me and it did feel awkward that he invited himself. And for me, truth be told, it was an uncomfortable holiday.

And no, Job, I take none of it to heart. It takes so much will power to keep from saying: "hey, we are NOT Siamese twins sharing a brain. You can leave without the use of a saw."

[BrightFuture]

HaWho, I missed some of the posts from the holiday weekend and had to catch up. When I was reading your post before you were taking 8 kids to the beach in the car with expired registration, and even before you later post about the ticket, I totally “saw” this coming… You were completely right… Labor Day weekend… West coast beach… expired registration… To the credit of the law enforcement here (I’m also on the South west cost, as you know), they give you some discretion.

You H sounds like he still has lots of issues to deal with. As I said before, I admire your resilience and patience through all of this, and most of all, your sense of humor.

I think your H has it really easy. Don’t get me wrong. But, if you would have enough of this and kick him out of the house, he would face his issues sooner, as it would be a different world for him where you would not be a source of his unhappiness any more. But, this comes with the consequences… Financial and also your kids’ wellbeing. As much as he is weird right now, he is still home and still engaged with the kids. The process of him dealing with his issues could take longer though, and I hope that you have enough patience to see it through. Hugs to you, HaWho!

[HaWho]

Hi Bright - so nice to hear from you.

So I am sitting still. And this is the stuff going on over here. H has been really irritable again. Routine noises (kids' voices too loud, sound of kids playing indoor Nerf, etc.) are once again bothering him, just as they did when he was in anger/denial and when he first bombed me. He is snapping a lot, too.

He was in his room ALL weekend long. I think he was outside the room for maybe 3 hours total. For two of those he was in the living room and for the remaining 1 he actually left the house. He listened to the same 5 songs over and over again. I can attest to the fact that this a viable military torture tactic that should be deployed.

As for me, I had a rough Saturday. Sitting still has raised all sorts of questions within me. For the most part h is the opposite of who he once was. On a few issues, though, things that seemed like outliers have matastisized and I cannot quiet my mind on these.

The first is his inability to handle aging/sickness/death. There were glimpses of this pre-MLC and I can't help wonder/be concerned that maybe he will never outgrow this. Up to now, I have been healthy, but obviously this can't last forever. H has had health issues and I have been tried and tested. I know I proved my loyalty. If he ever "woke up," I don't know if I will believe he has the grit it takes to be with me as I age. He stood by me in my depression but that's not the same as the body failing.

The second issue is his superficiality. There were some glimpses of this, too, and I thought it was immaturity. But it has exploded in MLC.

The third issue is he always sort of had a thing for conspiracy theories and the like. I think this has presented as full on paranoia in MLC. What cracks me up, is he has dropped those paranoias that are inconvenient. For example, he hates cooking. And though he accused me of trying to poison him, he now eats all my food because I know he cannot stand preparing his own food. In fact he now even suddenly "appears" when delicious weekend breakfasts are ready.

There's a whole bunch of stuff that is the polar opposite of who he was. But, these three issues made cameo appearances pre-MLC and have now ballooned.

Maybe these were attributes he always had and he buried them, especially those first two. I am worried what if these are the "true him?" Then I worked myself into this complete frenzy. Here's the loop I was on: if this is the true him and he never files for divorce, then what? I am Catholic and I don't think any of this is grounds for me to file divorce. Then I pictured myself stuck forever in this three legged race with a madman.

[job]

Well, you can always petition for a an annulment on the grounds of "emotional and mental impairment on his part" because his crisis has broken down the marriage...but that's down the road...and I honestly don't think you are going to have to worry about that because your h really hasn't been in the eye of the storm all that long. Replay takes a long time to work thru and it appears that he's revisiting some areas of his life that he may have visited previously. If the lessons aren't learned the first time, they will repeat themselves until the light bulb goes off.

If it gets to be too much, then show him the door. You can only take so much of this emotional and mental crazy behavior. You have not only yourself to think about, but your two sons as well.

I do think that they have some underlying issues that were always there, but they come out in full force once the crisis occurs. Whether or not they will remain w/him if he wakes up, only time will tell.

I think you are thinking too far ahead and need to live in the moment or one day at a time. We can't predict how he's going to be if and when he wakes up.

Remember to breathe!

P.S. It's time to start a new thread.

[Esame]

HaWho I'm sorry your H is still up to his usual crazy behaviour. My H is staying away during the week (we told the kids he is working away) and stays with us during the weekend. The change in the climate at home is unbelievable. It is calm and happy, and even though I was against it because it seemed like another step taking us closer to the end, I'm actually enjoying the peace.

You are amazing as always to put up with all the torture (the same 5 songs over and over? Really?). I'm sending you strength and hugs xxx

[HaWho]

My next thread is found here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2706448&#Post2706448