A WW?

[lt0402]

Coconut, first off, really appreciate the straight to the point feedback. After seeing your comments on the ipad, I re-read what I'd wrote. You're absolutely right. I've been bullied into this spot I'm in. This seems to be a massive, repeating issue now that I look back on things.

The IC's feedback was that bc she said she didn't want to date the OM (equally as awful by the way) and offered me the option of telling her not to go, she's torn in her decision making and is afraid to get dragged back into the issues we've had in our MR. I'm having issues piecing that thought together with her actions though. Think it's worthwhile to offer that to her, but at this point I don't think it's a conversation that happens without some things changing first.

"You being disengaged from the MR might have contributed to you being in this mess, but let me ask you, where you an awesome happy guy that was disengaged, or were you simply going through the motions of life?"

This just clicked the lightbulb on for me. I don't know why I hadn't put these two things together yet. You have no idea how awesome and helpful that statement is to me.

Heading out from work for exercise and dinner. But Darknes and AndrewP, will respond a little later.

Thanks to all of you for your continued support and guidance

[lt0402]

Ok, swam tonight and then grabbed some dinner out and finished DR. Realizing I need to re-read some things. My goal for tomorrow and the weekend is to start work on my plan for this sitch as well as determine my boundaries and consequences. A lot of work to do, but I agree that it'll help focus my efforts.

Darknes, great thoughts on aligning the consequence with the boundary crossed. Would be great to get your feedback when I put them up on here. Realizing this "project" is more about me than my W, but still difficult to avoid the focus swinging back her way. It's helping to hear others point out that I need to stand up for myself. Unsure where my confidence at home has gone over the years but I'm bound and determined to take it back.

AndrewP, hijack away. I'm learning a lot from all your posts and it's appreciated. Very sorry to hear about your cat though.

Vanilla, I'm debating the mbr situation now. I could boot her out but it could have negative repurcussions on my D. It's not really healthy right now though bc we are on night 4 of my D sleeping in there with my W. At some point I worry that's not good for my D.

Thank you all for the aid and thoughts. Tomorrow is another day

[lt0402]

Sandi, I hope you don't mind but I'm borrowing these from another topic you posted in so I can have them handy...

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".

Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.

Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).

Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.

Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.

[lt0402]

Skipped out of work early to go to my Ds art show for camp today. Met W there, told her hello, but coldly got back a response asking why I was standing outside and hadn't gone in yet. Let it roll off like I hadn't noticed how rude it was, but I realize it needs to be addressed as part of my boundaries.

Had a good time other than that at the art show. W and I both very supportive of D. W made sure to have D thank me for taking time off work to come before I headed back to the office. More for my Ds benefit than mine though.

Coming to the realization of just how insanely stupid and unneccesary this whole situation is. But still, for some reason, it was a rough evening and morning for me. Hasn't really been like that since earlier in the week. Gameplan is to work on boundaries/consequences and overall plan tonight. I need to get a path in front of me that I can focus on.

[AndrewP]

Start watching old "A-Team" re-runs (I know - before your time ...) There was a line there "I love it when a plan comes together"

[MoveFrwd]

Coming to the realization of just how insanely stupid and unneccesary this whole situation is.


I need to get a path in front of me that I can focus on.

Given your phrasing above, I'd start with Step 1 if I were you: Looking at your situation again from a Beginner's Mind.

Then I'd start making some goals.

I think you can work on boundaries later.

[lt0402]

It was an "ok" day today. D was sick so I spent the morning with her while W went to exercise and go to the grocery store. W came home and I headed to the gym. No real contact between us this morning.

The three of us went out to dinner, W wouldn't look me in the eye for some reason the whole time. Really strange. Conversation was mainly channeled through our D, which seems to be becoming the norm. We let our D use the iPhone while waiting on food (not the norm, but she is sick and it helped) and I tried to talk to my W. Very short answers and between convo she pulled out her iPhone and checked her Facebook. At that point I excused myself and got up to go to the restroom. Seemed so rude and unsure how to address in front of D. Meal ended with us all having a good laughs when my D laughed and shot milkshake on the table. At least some small piece of our family is still like it used to be. The fact I can't have a conversation w/ my W on anything but house and D is disconcerting though.

Got home and we watched a movie together and messed around on ipads/iphones. D just started using the messaging app (to talk to her friend traveling overseas) so the 3 of us had a good time messaging each other funny photos...starting to hate technology though.

W and D have historically joked about "dumb daddy" when I say something they don't agree with or think is off the wall. W started saying it "jokingly" some time ago and I just played along w/ the banter. D said something to that affect tonight and W agreed with her, but I was quick to push back and show I wouldn't take it. I actually had a conversation with D about how intelligent I am last weekend when we were on our own, so it hurt a little to hear her bring it up w/ the W here. 9yrs old and I know it's not purposeful though. But it does show how difficult the seed of something sown by W is to remove.

I'm finally realizing now, with ya'lls help, that all this stuff is highly disrespectful and I'm not willing to stand for it. Did it nicely but firmly tonight. W offered to my D that if I didn't want to be called that then D shouldn't do it. Interested to see if W follows suit, but at least she backed me up, though somewhat half heartedly.

I've been more confident around the house the past couple days. I no longer go out of my way to avoid the W. Over the 6 months or so she's complained about me being in the kitchen with her or being in her way around the house. I'm taking the tact of going where I need to go and disregarding any pent up anger she gets from it. Forgot to put a coffee mug back in place under the coffee maker this am after making coffee. Heard W firmly place it back there, but it didn't give me the gut wrenching feeling I would have had a couple weeks ago that i'd done something wrong. Mistakes happen and the W didn't say anything like she usually does about it not being in the perfect spot. I do still get looks of disgust or eye rolling at times though when our paths cross. Will need to address this as well in the near future.

I do find myself falling back into a rut at times though. W got a package today from somewhere I never heard of and I spent 30 mins of the evening looking at what the company was and where it could have come from. I had been very good about this recently, but I can't shake the fact that she's been buying things that shake my confidence of this MR fixing itself. I need to detach and not pay attention to this and up until today I hadn't done it since before we had the June 30 (pre lake trip) conversation.

Such a small window of time, but seems like a lot to infer out of it. I need to detach and continue working on myself while losing the current focus I have on my W. Finding it very difficult bc I've been trying to focus on how to fix us (with many scattershot and haphazard things) for years. Wish i'd stumbled on this place and the thought of IC/MC many years ago. Starting to work on goals though and here's what I have so far. I'm curious to hear your thoughts because i'm having a hard time getting to actionable goals, as MWD calls them.

Goals:
1) I'd like for the controlling/disrespectful behavior to stop fully by the time we go to the beach on Aug 6th

2) I'd like to become closer to my D. I'm doing this by focusing on quality of time together and not quantity. Once every 2 weeks I want to have a date night with just her and me.

3) I'd like to learn tennis. It's my D's favorite sport and she's taking lessons. I texted her coach today and told him I'd like to get lessons with him so I can both play and help teach her. Goal is 1 lesson at least every 2 weeks. W doesn't know about this, but this is for D and me only.

4) I'd like for W and I to have a conversation at least twice a week that's not centered on D or house/financial stuff. Not a lot to ask, but sure feels like a lot right now.

5) I'd like to find something to fill my Saturday or Sunday mornings. Be it golf, hiking, etc, but i'd like it to be with friends or new people I meet. I want to GAL and get out of the house and away from this for a portion of the weekend.

6) I'm going to go out with friends/coworkers at least once a week. My best friend lives here, but I hardly see him bc I've been too busy worrying what W would say if I wasn't here. Need to GAL and be back in touch.

7) I'd like to exercise at least 5 days a week. This one is easy because I've been doing this since June 1, but thought i'd include to keep it on the radar.

Please, please let me know your feedback on these. Finding I need a path and some goals so that I don't keep getting sidetracked. Thanks to all of you for all of your support!

[AndrewP]

The lack of eye contact and disrespect is a phase I know well lt0402. Your W is disconnecting from you more and more and it will probably get worse before it gets better.

I'd suggest dropping any goals you have that involve W and focus on yourself and D9.

Give up on Goal 1 - perhaps even make other plans.

For goal 5 - one of my personal favourite things is breakfasts / brunch. I'm a "few" years older than you but when I had a D9 it was one of my favourite things to take her along for that giving W space and quiet in the mornings. It was a time that D24 and I both still remember fondly.

For goal 6 - I struggle with that myself. I hate to think that I might be missing out for a chance to bond with W but the reality has been that she has had no interest in bonding with me. That might be changing in my sitch but possibly is still true in your's. A support network is very important to being able to survive this - go out and re-connect with your friends. It will make you stronger. I know that I am missing out on chances to bond with friends because my own W will leave me hanging about her own plans until the last minute which is one of the reasons I'm online instead of visiting with my brothers right now.

Good luck.

[lt0402]

Thanks AndrewP. The beach trip is with my W and D and the D is over the top excited about it. I'm hesitant to kill those plans bc it's the one thing she's looking forward to and when we get back we plan on telling her about the S. That last part is ripping me apart inside.

I like the idea of breakfast out w/ my D. Going to tweak my goals to include that bc it's a perfect time for us to be together and have lots of energy and fun.

#6 is a must bc I feel myself drifting back towards a dark place w/ no one but the IC knowing what's going on right now. W has 0 interest in bonding w/ me right now as you'll see from a conversation last night...

So yesterday was just like Saturday. Up early, D gets up and is still sick so we eat breakfast and watch some TV. W decides not to exercise in the AM so I go to the gym earlier than expected and come home to hang out w/ D.

The silence is awkward at times with D, W, and I all in the family room together. Try to make some conversation but W mainly answers with one word answers like she's annoyed. Finally get up and take care of yard work for about an hour, come back in, take a shower, and then play some Minecraft on the computer with the D until dinner.

After dinner, W goes out to run and D and I play some more Minecraft until it's bedtime. W showers, we put D to bed (W is still having D sleep in mbr with her - every day since I left it), and I go to do my evening stuff.

Grab W for a chat before she starts making herself some food. We had been talking about me taking D to a waterpark for two days in Aug. Set a date and booked it after she asked me out of the blue yesterday. We talked about that then I brought back up the conversation from last Tues around her pointing out my mistakes in Ds routine. What I thought would be a 5 min talk turned into 45 mins of awfulness.

I told her that I was having trouble rationalizing her pushing me on my mistakes about Ds routine while at the same time making choices that are going to cause our Ds routine and all our lives to be turned upside down. That opened up a Pandora's box of thoughts from her. The gist of all of them was that I've broken her trust so many times she would never be able to forgive me, there's absolutely 0 chance we ever get back together, being away from our toxic MR is what's good for D, she was ready to leave 1 year into our M if we hadn't had our kid 2yrs in, my D is complaining to her that she can't trust me just like mom...

She said it goes back to her having to take care of the house, the chores, the baby, and working (while making more $ than me, which seemed unneccesary) while I did nothing to help her. That we haven't had any sort of conversation or affection in yrs (hand holding, sex, etc) and that if I could see how other married couples treat each other I'd see how F'd up we are.

As an aside, I definitely deserve a lot of blame in the above, but it's not for a lack of trying. I tried to help, but the slightest mistake shut the door on me ever being able to take something over from her. Again, my lack of standing up for myself. I just let it fester and avoided it and now here we are. On the affection stuff, I tried and tried and tried, but couldn't ever make any headway.

At the very end, she made it a point to say the OM situation has nothing to do with this and I was probably happy that I ruined that last weekend as nothing happened. She said she actually lied to OM in all her messages bc she didn't want him to realize how F'd up her life is.

I found myself trying to validate at the beginning and empathize but I quickly spiraled into "this is fixable" territory and followed that path blindly. Realizing now that I was wholly unprepared to broach that depth of conversation and I'm wondering how much damage it did.

I told her we seemed to be taking the easy way out and we could have a chance to solve it by putting in effort. She said she'd been working on it the past 5 yrs and she's done. Then we ripped into the trust stuff, etc. Downwards spiral. I could see it happening but couldn't shut off my thoughts from going to my mouth. She was mad at me by the end and we cut it off there. I went upstairs to bed and she ate and watched TV. Said we'd talk in a few days, but it's more around getting Ls involved and having a plan for the house, etc than any R talk.

...been teetering b/t ok and not ok the past few days and that pushed me squarely back into the not ok camp. Gets worse before it gets better right? Well the worse part [censored]. I can feel myself coming to the realization that I need to back off and let her go which I think is good, but my insides scream not to get there yet. IC tomorrow AM, which should help. Wondering what he says about the conversation last night.

The one thing that sticks out in my head is her saying that we're living together S now and it's just like when we were M. Nothing has changed and we still don't talk to each other. I wanted to shake her and say that's bc you won't give me the time of day, but did not.

Frustrated, tired, and down. No gym tonight bc a work function got cancelled last minute, so headed home for quality time w/ D. She's where my focus needs to be. I need to get my head out of thoughts about the W. Will update goals later tonight.

[PsySara]

Hi lt,

Your WW seems extremely controlling and and angry. It's like she's the female version of a Nice Guy. She appears to have built up a lot of resentment about caring for your daughter while simultaneously being critical and contemptuous when you tried to be part of the parenting in your past. I am a woman so take my advice with a grain of salt but it's time for you to be firm and manly when interacting with your WW. If you do not want to divorce then do not give one ounce of help when it comes to moving in that direction. Consult a lawyer with the thought that they are not interested in saving your marriage but rather making a buck. They will tell you things like children do fine when parents divorce, there is no harm in it, blah blah blah. I am a subscriber to Dr Phil, one must earn their way out of a marriage.

In the meantime, it ain't over until it's over. While you can't control the waves of pain and confusion you're going through right now you can absolutely control how you react. I wish I had DB when I first found out about my WH's affair. I think I would've avoided months of pain and severe distress. DETACH brother! At all costs detach! Do some 180s, start learning your daughter's medication routine and food restrictions, if you make a mistake then keep learning and perfecting. In the past you threw in the towel because your WW flipped her lid. Don't react that way, keep in learning. If your WW starts to balk just calmly explain that if the S leads to divorce then there will be many times you will be with your daughter and your wife won't be. This is a necessary skill to be the best dad to your daughter.

Read the validation cheat sheet and rehearse until you can spout the responses without sounding rehearsed. I've read that cheat sheet at least 20 times and still go back to remind myself. My WH is coming around now but it's been the hardest thing I have ever done. I have changed fundamental things about how I think and react to EVERYONE, not just WH and I am better for it. The trickiest part for me has been knowing when to STFU and really listen and validate. I suspect your WW is still deep in her affair fog and right now views you through an extremely distorted lens. My WH did the same thing and still relapses even though the affair has been over for a few months. These are our WS's poor coping skills and they will lean on them like a crutch when they feel cornered. So back away, detach and become mysterious. Don't talk about your feelings or thoughts anymore, don't pursue her and try to know her thoughts. Be receptive if she begins a convo but if she becomes hostile or insulting then draw your boundary and calmly inform her you will chat with her when she is in a better spot mentally. YOU end the convos, not her. Be calm, confident and strong, women hunger for that. More importantly, what were you like before WW? What drew her to you? Change back to the positive aspects of yourself but do it for you. A WW can smell desperation and it sends them scurrying. Good luck, brother, you can do this!