Being good at disagreement

[JujuB]

Im not sure if I should still be posting in Newcomers. I have been posting on these boards for close to one year, and have no hope for reconciliation. But divorce process is only just starting, so maybe this will be my last thread on here. Thank you for all those that follow and respond. I am always amazed at how similar our experiences and feelings are and I am always greatful for the support and advice.

My recent thoughts have been a big jumble. Poorly organized and all over the place. Kind of like my emotions. But the central theme of these thoughts revolves around what makes a marriage last and why didn't mine? Abuse? Control? Finances? Sex? Kid?

There was an article someone recently posted on facebook that basically said that with marriage we are definitively doomed to a certain degree and variety of suffering, depending upon which partner we pick. I accept that and this is not a new concept to me, just humorous. "Hell is other people" right?

I always thought that a successful marriage would be based on a partner with a similar level of committment. And maybe that would make a marriage last but not necessarily be successful. But commitment level is impossible to predict. People can rationalize anything. Then I thought maybe a compatibility issue...but not true either. That's supposed to be achieved.

The article was actually hopeful though by expressing in order to have a successful marriage, our best chance is by choosing a partner that "can negotiate differences" someone that is "good at disagreement".

This makes sense to me.

I am always thrown off by the comment "work on yourself".

But really, in order to be a good partner I believe I need to learn to be better at negotiating differences and then perhaps it will be easier to recognize a future partner that can do the same. It's easy to respectfully debate or discuss when there is no emotional investment, however challenging when there are hurt feelings and egos. So this will be a huge challenge for me in the near future with upcoming legal process.

obviously more to it..but post is getting long.

[Painter]

Maybe also finding someone who has a similary *style* of negotiating differences. I remember saying to my H before we got married that 'if we run into problems down the road, I think it will be due to you not standing up for yourself'. And that is exactly what happened.

His way of resolving differences is to pretend nothing is wrong. Mine is to have a detached, unemotional discussion. (OW is also great at pretending, it seems - to the degree that H is 'disturbed' by it. The rug in the middle of that living room must be bulging! But that was what he wanted now, so that's what he got.)

I could probably have been less gullible when I married H. I should have been able to predict that someone who is getting married for the 5th time, is not great at committment.

I hope you don't stop posting!

[JujuB]

Hi painter, I just meant stop posting on newcomers and maybe join JKSD. I really find peace with the interactive journaling. It is hard for me to read some of the newer posts. I relive those feelings when I read some of it. I also don't believe in forgiving infidelity in 99.5 % of the cases, so im not much help with advise.

I have been having a really hard time reading accounts from male posters who are so forgiving and supportive of their wives who have Betrayed them in some of the worst ways. I can't help but think, " what was really so bad about me, that my husband left ? " I have my issues, but in all honesty nothing that warranted a divorce and abandonment the way that STBX did it. I mean come on...to walk away the way he did is Jerry Spinger material. There's a lot of indication of infidelity. It's hard to come to terms that it's my life!

Regarding communication, I needed someone to communicate with me directly and honestly. I needed to voice my complaints in a different way, that was less critical and perhaps not emotionally charged. We needed to work together as a team unit.

[JujuB]

GRL

I agree with you. Someone that understands marriage and children require work. Someone that can accept disagreement. Someone always willing to learn and try?

No one is forced to marry and have children. And for those who make that choice, you do have to give up some form of independence and individualism. Your behaviors, your time, your finances...they have to be sacrificed for the family unit. And that's a lot to sacrifice. No question.

I like what that sacrifice has the potential to bring though. And I still have hope and the belief that it's possible to share your life with someone into old age. Although probably more difficult second time around.

I think it's pretty irresponsible to make that choice and then decide midway through that "nope it's not for me" and villify and lie about someone to justify that decision. I think that was the hardest part for me... Being villified and blamed.

My husband has been telling people that I pushed him out. That he tried.
Now obviously I wouldn't date someone that cheated or abandoned his family. But What if I meet someone that tells me his wife left him? How can I trust that he is different from my husband? Maybe he is in a weird self denial too!

[Painter]

GRL

I agree with you. Someone that understands marriage and children require work. Someone that can accept disagreement. Someone always willing to learn and try?

No one is forced to marry and have children. And for those who make that choice, you do have to give up some form of independence and individualism. Your behaviors, your time, your finances...they have to be sacrificed for the family unit. And that's a lot to sacrifice. No question.

I like what that sacrifice has the potential to bring though. And I still have hope and the belief that it's possible to share your life with someone into old age. Although probably more difficult second time around.

I think it's pretty irresponsible to make that choice and then decide midway through that "nope it's not for me" and villify and lie about someone to justify that decision. I think that was the hardest part for me... Being villified and blamed.

My husband has been telling people that I pushed him out. That he tried.
Now obviously I wouldn't date someone that cheated or abandoned his family. But What if I meet someone that tells me his wife left him? How can I trust that he is different from my husband? Maybe he is in a weird self denial too!

I really like this post. I really, really like the way you formulate this so succinctly.

[mustardseed]

Juju I am having a lot of the same thoughts as you. I have met a number of divorced men this passed year and all of them claim their wives ended it. After some discussion with one of these men I came to find that he was checked out of the marriage for a long time and the first time she mentioned D he took it and ran with it. He really thinks he's the good guy in all of this because evident cheat and stuck around even though he hated her and only stayed for their kid. But then he bragged about getting a girlfriend the next day. That disgusted me. Especially the pride he took in how he handled things. Really has no idea that he played a part. He got mad when I told him that I imagine my exes story probably doesn't sound much different than his

The other stories I've heard the men seemed as blindsided as me. There was an om that one wife had to pursue that ended up falling apart after a few years. It took about 5 years and a disastrous rebound relationship for him to finally get to the place where he can have a respectful coparenting relationship with her and now they speak well of each other but happy with their d.

Then there is a young newlywed couple where the wife seemed overwhelmed with the reality of married adult life and pulled the rug out from under him while he was focused on building that life. He is still angry but he hasn't been out of it for very long.

There are lots of stories and it is interesting to hear the male perspective. I'm definitely not ready to trust yet. I have to learn to trust myself first. But I like to investigate and it is nice to have companionship. Not wanting to fall in love or become committed to someone has made dating a lot more fun.

I know you aren't ready yet, but when you are remember there are lots of different reasons to date, and falling in love does not have to be one of them.

[JujuB]

Hearing these stories interests me. I feel like there is just such a small pool of men out there. Single, childless men have no idea of the hardships that come with marriage. They will have less invested, so even more of a chance that they will walk out down the road. Even less of a chance that they would even invest in a woman with a kid. A lot of divorced men are most likely going to be like my husband or the man you described in your first paragraph. And if their wives did actually leave them I suspect they will be more bitter and have limited capacity or desire to commit and trust again.

This is me and all of the negative talk that I am supposed to be staying away from. But can anyone really argue the reality of it?

I never really dated much so the concept of dating for companionship is foreign to me. In my mind, I will always be screening for committment. (Which I know is most men's fear) I come across as easy going and light but that's more of a mask.

Maybe just being a carefree, single mom can be fun. It's just me and son. We can pick up and travel, move around easily etc. But That life is also foreign to me. I grew up in a world that is structured around the stability of a family unit. I'm completely thrown off by this type of abandonment. And feel robbed.

I know I have to appreciate what I do have, but sometimes I have trouble.

[JujuB]

I have been having a lot of trouble reading the stories on these boards. The betrayal, and deceit, and entitlement and selfishness really disturbs me. I am coming on less and less.

Here is my honest thoughts about being the light house... I am not a f' ing innanimate object. I am a person with feelings. Someone that is capable of breaking vows, and lying, and cheating, and hoarding money should have consequences. Not someone waiting patiently on the sides for them to come around and see the light.

Love for children is unconditional. Love for your partner is not. I am not articulate enough to express why.

My husband had a different set of conditions then I did. Mine were spelled out. His were not.

[rich4j]

I am in the final phases of a divorce and was the recipient of the divorce :-) ...after about 11 years and a young daughter.

Surprised? yes/no. We had issues

But for the theme of this post, I totally agree being good at disagreement but also the poorly over used term of communication and the style of communication. My STBX was a bully and has the "not my fault" syndrome. Not just with me but all her interactions. The world is at fault for all her problems.

So we were not good at disagreement. Because it would be me just burying my feelings, resenting her more.....detaching more...and dissapearing more becuz it was useless. Her on the other hand maybe just needed someone stronger so they could stand up to her bullying when there was a disagreement and maybe that would work for her. Not me....

Communication in terms of being able to be open and honest of what you need and what is missing and just "what" with the other person able to accept it and not be defensive is another thing you have to be good at together...which is hard.

I too cringe about all the new stories I read.they are sad...have similar themes...

I still think that marriage is a super tough road to go down and that its too easy to get married and divorced :-) Too many "channels" of media , both TV , social and the like have killed the instituation of marriage IMHO. Its not a fantasyland where passion is there every day, every year etc....you need to work at it and you may fall in and out of love at adifferent times. But you loved enough hopefully to make the vow and I am big at commitment. Also understand if you are miserable then it is no way to live life. But you need to discuss communicate, be open and vulnerable, and give it your all without giving up. And if all fails, amicably and lovingly walk away but cheating to me is inexcusable and for the weak minded. Its an excuse...

[mustardseed]

I have been having a lot of trouble reading the stories on these boards. The betrayal, and deceit, and entitlement and selfishness really disturbs me. I am coming on less and less.

Here is my honest thoughts about being the light house... I am not a f' ing innanimate object. I am a person with feelings. Someone that is capable of breaking vows, and lying, and cheating, and hoarding money should have consequences. Not someone waiting patiently on the sides for them to come around and see the light.

Love for children is unconditional. Love for your partner is not. I am not articulate enough to express why.

My husband had a different set of conditions then I did. Mine were spelled out. His were not.

I relate to what you are saying. I don't read much about the stories where people are still trying to DB because I can't bring myself back there. There is no way in hell I ever want to be a lighthouse for him or anyone (except my kids) ever again and my advice to someone these days would be quite the opposite from what I wanted to believe was possible 2 years ago. I know that it works for some people, but you have to have a partner that knows how to commit in the first place. Not someone who thrives on playing head games and compartmentalizing each piece of his or her life. I hate the message that we have to deny our emotions and suck it up.

I feel there is a big message around (not so much on the boards but everywhere) that if we have an emotional attachment to our ex then we are clingy and pathetic. Like a 15 year marriage is supposed to leave no residual side effects. It has been a year since I had to leave and I should be over it--even before the D is final. I should be accepting of OW and not have an opinion about the tacky things she does that makes my life uncomfortable. But I do have an opinion--and that doesn't mean I am controlling. And I spent 15 years sacrificing my needs and wants to make his life comfortable, I don't have to do that anymore. And choosing not to be complacent in all this does not make me "vindictive" or "hung up on him" as he wants everyone to believe.

There is still pain. And that pain does not mean that I want that crazy man back in my life. It doesn't mean that I am clingy or in denial or trying to control what he does. It means that I am human and believed we had something meaningful. I believed we had something that was worth sacrifice on my part. And I am angry about being deceived and grieving the loss of what I thought I had.

I believed he was all in. I believed he meant the vows that we took. It is easy to make the vows when you are in the heights of romance, but those vows aren't meant for the good times, they are meant for when things aren't going well. I know there are men out there who believe in those vows. Most of them are married. But some of them were just as blindsided as we were. I'm not quite sure how to tell the difference just yet, but I think at our age it must be easier because they have enough history behind them to help with the information gathering. When we were in our 20s all we could go on was promises--and without quite understanding what challenges were ahead it was easy to put all of our faith in those promises.

I don't know if I want that kind of commitment ever again. But I do believe it is out there.

I know my H did not live up to the ideals he had for what kind of H he wanted to be, and I didn't live up to my ideals on the kind of wife I wanted to be either. But I didn't expect us to be perfect. I just expected us to never give up. To always try. To continue to work together. And that is where I was let down. He wanted perfection. I wanted partnership. Neither of us could deliver. If I do decide to get married again, it would be with someone who shows up no matter what. Not someone who wants to be the hero, or the easy going good guy. someone who can disagree with me without walking out or throwing bombs of insults. Someone who can be happy to share an experience with me even if it isn't something he enjoys without pouting or expecting a parade of honor for his sacrifice. Someone who can make mistakes and own up to it when it happens. And someone who doesn't dismiss me when I do the same. And can honestly talk to me about things I might do that upsets him.

If that person doesn't exist that I am fine being single for the rest of my life.

[Painter]

I relate to what you are saying. I don't read much about the stories where people are still trying to DB because I can't bring myself back there. There is no way in hell I ever want to be a lighthouse for him or anyone (except my kids) ever again and my advice to someone these days would be quite the opposite from what I wanted to believe was possible 2 years ago. I know that it works for some people, but you have to have a partner that knows how to commit in the first place. Not someone who thrives on playing head games and compartmentalizing each piece of his or her life. I hate the message that we have to deny our emotions and suck it up.

I feel there is a big message around (not so much on the boards but everywhere) that if we have an emotional attachment to our ex then we are clingy and pathetic. Like a 15 year marriage is supposed to leave no residual side effects. It has been a year since I had to leave and I should be over it--even before the D is final. I should be accepting of OW and not have an opinion about the tacky things she does that makes my life uncomfortable. But I do have an opinion--and that doesn't mean I am controlling. And I spent 15 years sacrificing my needs and wants to make his life comfortable, I don't have to do that anymore. And choosing not to be complacent in all this does not make me "vindictive" or "hung up on him" as he wants everyone to believe.

There is still pain. And that pain does not mean that I want that crazy man back in my life. It doesn't mean that I am clingy or in denial or trying to control what he does. It means that I am human and believed we had something meaningful. I believed we had something that was worth sacrifice on my part. And I am angry about being deceived and grieving the loss of what I thought I had.

I believed he was all in. I believed he meant the vows that we took. It is easy to make the vows when you are in the heights of romance, but those vows aren't meant for the good times, they are meant for when things aren't going well. I know there are men out there who believe in those vows. Most of them are married. But some of them were just as blindsided as we were. I'm not quite sure how to tell the difference just yet, but I think at our age it must be easier because they have enough history behind them to help with the information gathering. When we were in our 20s all we could go on was promises--and without quite understanding what challenges were ahead it was easy to put all of our faith in those promises.

I don't know if I want that kind of commitment ever again. But I do believe it is out there.

I know my H did not live up to the ideals he had for what kind of H he wanted to be, and I didn't live up to my ideals on the kind of wife I wanted to be either. But I didn't expect us to be perfect. I just expected us to never give up. To always try. To continue to work together. And that is where I was let down. He wanted perfection. I wanted partnership. Neither of us could deliver. If I do decide to get married again, it would be with someone who shows up no matter what. Not someone who wants to be the hero, or the easy going good guy. someone who can disagree with me without walking out or throwing bombs of insults. Someone who can be happy to share an experience with me even if it isn't something he enjoys without pouting or expecting a parade of honor for his sacrifice. Someone who can make mistakes and own up to it when it happens. And someone who doesn't dismiss me when I do the same. And can honestly talk to me about things I might do that upsets him.

If that person doesn't exist that I am fine being single for the rest of my life.

^^^^^^

Yes, that. All of it, every single word!

[JujuB]

Such a similar dynamic for me as well. Is this a universal gender battle or just similar because we were all a part of such dysfunctional relationships that ended in divorce?

My husband made this remark about how much he had to compromise. I think a very real issue was that he did not understand that once there are children involved sacrifice and compromise becomes a requirement.

A big issue for us was his sleeping late. I mean sleeping till 3 or 4 on weekends and then getting to work after 12 during weekdays and having to make it up in the evenings. (No he did not work night shifts) during the week I worked part time and when I was not working I was taking care of son. During the weekends I wanted husband to spend time with us. I wonder if the waking up late was a passive aggressive way to avoid that. I would wait around and then he would get up and tell me he had to run errands before the stores would close. If he did wake up and do something he was so moody and resentful. It wasn't even fun. Plus he could only wake up with me constantly nagging him to get up which left us both in bad mood. He felt that going places with us was a huge compromise. A lot of the time I would just call my parents so that I had someone to go hiking with, or go to beach with, or apple picking with,or to museums with etc.

Now he does these sort of day trips with his mom every other weekend. As if to say, "see when your not involved i will get up". (Although I know through son my MIL is the one that is up with him in the mornings and putting him to bed at night... so I am basically sharing custody with my MIL! (I know how much worse that could be for those of you who have OW taking care of kids)

I know I shouldn't be ranting about this anymore. I know how common it is for guys to take the back seat on family activities..I know my husbands mother was the one that did everything in his household and my father was the one that always wanted to go places with us (to the point that my mom would make jokes about giving us money to go places with and tire out dad) so expectations were screwy and very different baackgounds to begin with.

I do fear this dynamic though and maybe it would be better to just do it alone.

Thanks for listening. I know it doesn't matter anymore. It's something I still think about though. I don't know how it could have been handled differently. And I am afraid of next spouse not wanting to spend time with me either.

[JujuB]

I think maybe we were just doomed from the beginning. Im from big family. I like working as team. I like going places. My parents were both involved. Husband was only child. Very independent. His mom was super organized and took care of everything.

[JksD]

(((Jb)))

Like what MS said, the M may be over but it doesn't mean we wouldn't hurt. That we always need to svck it up.

We are humans. If someone cuts us, we bleed. If someone betrays us, we hurt. We may not want the M or the H back back, but we will still grieve.

I am still grieving. I am grieving for the fact that I wasn't able to deliver perfection and now kid is paying for my inability.

[JujuB]

I am in the final phases of a divorce and was the recipient of the divorce :-) ...after about 11 years and a young daughter.

Surprised? yes/no. We had issues

But for the theme of this post, I totally agree being good at disagreement but also the poorly over used term of communication and the style of communication. My STBX was a bully and has the "not my fault" syndrome. Not just with me but all her interactions. The world is at fault for all her problems.

So we were not good at disagreement. Because it would be me just burying my feelings, resenting her more.....detaching more...and dissapearing more becuz it was useless. Her on the other hand maybe just needed someone stronger so they could stand up to her bullying when there was a disagreement and maybe that would work for her. Not me....

Communication in terms of being able to be open and honest of what you need and what is missing and just "what" with the other person able to accept it and not be defensive is another thing you have to be good at together...which is hard.

I too cringe about all the new stories I read.they are sad...have similar themes...

I still think that marriage is a super tough road to go down and that its too easy to get married and divorced :-) Too many "channels" of media , both TV , social and the like have killed the instituation of marriage IMHO. Its not a fantasyland where passion is there every day, every year etc....you need to work at it and you may fall in and out of love at adifferent times. But you loved enough hopefully to make the vow and I am big at commitment. Also understand if you are miserable then it is no way to live life. But you need to discuss communicate, be open and vulnerable, and give it your all without giving up. And if all fails, amicably and lovingly walk away but cheating to me is inexcusable and for the weak minded. Its an excuse...

Thanks for your post rich. Yes marriage is way too easy for the walkaway spouse (although some states are better then others) and I agree that a successful marriage requires committment through the unhappy and passionless times. im not sure that I believe in amicably walking away because I doubt that it is ever amicable for both partners. And why get married in the first place if that's an option? I think there is always a way to work things out if there is no easily available exit plan. (with exceptions for cheating, abandoning, and harming children).

I am not familiar with your situation but I will try to catch up. Like you, my husband buried his feelings, built up resentment, detached and withdrew. I was not an irrational bully. At least I don't feel like I was. If husband ever attempted to communicate with me I would have really analyzed every word he said to come up with a fair solution. For some reason he just could not do so and to this day I do not understand it.

He frequently said our issues were "we don't communicate"

I have a hard time communicating with him now because I feel like he will distort my words and show his anger for them weeks from now. I just stopped talking to him all together. I have no desire anymore.

[Painter]

I don't know how it could have been handled differently. And I am afraid of next spouse not wanting to spend time with me either.

Oh, this made me tear up... ((((JujuB)))) If they only knew how much they've hurt us. I went through the very same thing.

There are many, many people who remarry happily. I truly believe that those of us here, who introspect, grow and develop, review our history and think about what we can do differently, maybe see an IC, stand a much, much better chance to find happiness than the average person.

[Ginger1]

Hey There JuJu,

Everyone shared some sentiments I can certainly understand. And I know we discussed some of this stuff.

You could not have handled this differently. You handled this like a strong loving woman and a mom. It's not that he didn't want to spend time with you. He seems pretty ill-equipped to handle real life. Which is not a reflection on you at all.

My childhood was a bit messed up. long story. My mom was home but I was raised by my dad. The best gift I could have gotten out of my not so ideal childhood was the independence I was taught by my father, and the independence that forced upon me by my mother. While I am sure your MIL had good intentions, her doing everything for him didn't prepare him for the real world. he is escaping himself and his responsibilities, not you!

It also takes 2 to communicate. And I could completely relate to being scared to communicate. Anything I ever did would also be distorted. or I was told "too bad, it is how it is" So I stopped. Nothing got solved, I got resentful, ect.

In the future, when you are ready to date, you will be very keen to red flags and sincerity. And your gut. Your intuition will not fool you. My gut has been right 100% of the time, in the M and in other R's. The key is listening to it. Yes, we take a risk that some divorced guy is feeding us a line of BS, o perceives their last M as they did, even if it wasn't what it actually was. I believe this experience we have all gone through can help us spot those people right away. My last R, my intuition made me aware of the red flags. While he was a great sweet guy and we LOVED spending time together, he had behaviors from his last R that didn't change which needed to for a new R. I saw it.

Loving again is a risky thing to do and it has no guarantees. I promised myself when I was ready for a relationship that I would give myself fully, even with the risk, because when it was the right one, everything would be returned fully. There was no point in dating in a completely guarded manner (guarded and naïve are two different things) if I wanted to reap full benefit of a healthy relationship. Sure, I've been hurt again. But I don't regret anything I've done.

And I read a great article on the torn feeling between being happy you are out of a marriage knowing that was unhealthy and there was cheating, but still missing being married and a family unit. Both can be done at the same time, even if it feels completely conflicting.

[mustardseed]

Ginger1 has some really good points. I don't ever want to be a distrusting person. I like that can be trusting. But what I am learning to do is to trust myself more. I ignored all of my red flags as well because I wanted to believe the illusion. The red flags were buried under the things I wanted to see and hear.

I now pay attention to those red flags, but like I have said in my thread I am recognizing the things that make me drawn to the people that raise them. I am working through that. I want to believe that people generally have good intentions. I have learned that not everyone does, but even if they do have good intentions but hurt me in the process that means they aren't right for me. Not that they are a bad person, but not the person for me and I don't have to keep them in my life. I am still struggling to recognize it and apply it, but I think if I have this mastered my next R (if there is one) will be a better fit than any that have come before.

[Rouky]

The real gem in our situation is that we are working on us, to make us a better, to be who we truly are. I have met so many people who aren't taking ownership of their participation in the break up of their marriage, and I'm sure that they'll reproduce the same in their next relationship or they will go for the same person.

Even though BD is hard because we have to accept our responsibility and learn from it, as it is a journey that we would have never started if it had not been forced on us. JJB I'm 16 months post BD and only now I'm realising my share in the end of my marriage. I saw who I had become and now I'm making the changes for myself. I was expecting H to make me happy and deal with my issues, whereas now I understand all along I buried my head in the sand, and was expecting it to go away. God has given me a change to work on me and to become who I'm supposed to be. It is probably to the expense of my marriage but I believe I had to be smacked really hard to realise it.

Some people ( us here) will be better equipped in our next relationship whereas our H will not have grown like we did because they see nothing wrong with them.

JJB we will come out of this tunnel a better person and the right person will come along. My H has been brought by his mum and 3 sisters and had everything done for him, whereas like you I was brought up to be independent. It's a different bringing up and I didn't truly understand what compromises were/ are. I know for sure that I won't repeat it in my next relationship.

[JujuB]

Thank you Ginger, mustard seed, and Rouky. I reread each of your posts a few times.


It's been a long time since I posted. I've been in a bit of a slump. I used to read these forums religiously and recently I just feel so exhausted by it all. Like I don't have the energy to write (and then the times I tried it just froze up and I gave up )

The actual legal process is coming up and I have been procrastinating on making certain decisions. I realize this comes from a state of anxiety and fear and I feel paralyzed. I am having a hard time accomplishing things right now and I often feel like I'm just going through the motions. Work is structured and a distraction so I am fine. But bill paying, con ed courses, scheduling appointments, errands, is always a midnight hour task and Im struggling.

I go from states of intense anger to sadness and then to guilt that perhaps I have been villifying husband. I always fear not knowing my reality. I can't even look at my husband when we exchange son, I am just so hurt and betrayed and angry and having trouble coping with the abandonment and the way that he actually ended it.

I went on a super casual date ( ended in no more then hug and I split the cost) which was nice but I came home feeling very depressed and now feel guilty because another person is a bit too invested and I was not straight forward about my intentions. It's funny because I feared the similarities he shared with husband but did Not like the things that were different from husband. This one date served as a slap of reality though regarding how difficult it is to meet someone you clique with and then how once you do there's a good chance the relationship change anyway as you become less enamoured.

I am trying to remember that it is really my outlook on this whole situation and that I have the choice of wallowing in pain or being happy. Of course I choose to be happy but it's hard to be consistent like that on a day to day basis. The people that are capable of that are inspirational.

[Rouky]

Jujub,
I can SO relate to your post. I really struggle with the abandonment and the fact that H doesn't love me as I'm not such a bad person.

I have been on few dates but nothing goes further. I do believe it's because I still love H and I haven't dropped THAT rope! It is hard. I guess some people are quicker than us to turn round and start a new life. I guess we are the soft ones and it will us longer!

[Zues126]

Good to hear from you again J.

Number one, I'd recommend holding off on dating. This isn't DB advice, it's just my own. I'm sure you've heard me talk of the 1 year rule, waiting 1 year from when the divorce is final. Not separation, not move out date, not bomb drop...the actual legal process being done. It takes way longer than people think to be really ready.

The problem is that when you're hurting it makes other people artificially attractive. If they make you feel less pain you think you like THEM, when really you're linking them to the relief from the hurt. But when you heal you no longer need them to medicate, and you start to see them for who they are, not how they help your mood. At which point you hurt someone else, hurt yourself by reliving all the suppressed pain and the new loss, or worse find yourself stuck in a long term committed relationship that will ultimately be unfulfilling and leave you lonely and regretful for the rest of your days. Contrast that with holding off until you're healthy and ready to make good decisions. What's the rush? I never understood this.

As for being exhausted and the choice between happiness and misery, I often think people misunderstand this. I just posted
this on Cherry's thread:

My only advise to you is not to be too hard on yourself for feeling overwhelmed or sad. That is a human response to a horrible situation. I know we try to detach and get off the roller coaster a bit, and I certainly agree with that goal. But don't think there is some DB secret that will prevent you from feeling hit by a truck a lot of the time. Pain is pain. If you burn your hand on a stove you're going to hurt, your pain isn't an indication that you are doing something wrong in terms of failing to detach from your hand. It's just going to hurt. Please give yourself permission to hurt.

I'm not saying to dwell on it, or not to detach. But in a new age world in which people act like there's a flippant fix for whatever problems there are, and people give advise like 'you don't need a jerk like that', it can deprive us of our need to grieve. By all means, go ahead and grieve. Whatever pain, anger, or depression waves over you this is a safe place. It's not dwelling on it. It's dealing with the reality that you are in the middle of. If you start becoming a clinging victim we'll let you know, but I am more concerned that you'll think something is wrong with you for feeling bottomed out a lot of the time.

Again, I think people on these forums hide from their pain and medicate using new relationships too much, thinking they are 'choosing to be happy'. I say 'choose to grieve and accept your loss'. It should be a balance, allowing yourself to feel the pain, and being appreciative for the life you still have. If you allow both in your life, gradually the time you are hurting and the time you spend rehashing this in your mind will tip. In a year it will go from 50/50 to 80/20, then in another year 95/5. Or whatever. But we must go through this process. Trying to rush it will lead to problems.

Same goes for being exhausted, of course you are. You don't have a partner, have to handle more things than ever, have new things like legal process looming, have uncertainty and pain tiring you out, have to deal with an hour a day of racing thoughts of 'why' and 'how', etc. You will be exhausted. I was for sure, as you know if you followed my posts. This too shall pass.

Point is don't let the pain and fatigue influence your decisions. Just keep making good decisions based on your beliefs and you'll get somewhere you'll want to be before you know it. Until then I'm sorry you're here, it stinks, and we are all here for you to listen as much as you care to share.

[JujuB]

Its been a while since I've been on. I have not been keeping up as I usually like to. I've just been tired lately. Like completely fatigued. for the most part, I'm either working or with son, who certainly has some behavior issues. (When school starts it will get easier) I am vey stressed about making legal decisions, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to post about it at present. Husband has hidden or depleted marital assets though and I feel forced to go a route I really don't want to. But I'm still having trouble. We only talk son logistics (which I prefer) except when husband wants something. Then he sends me friendly texts... Very insulting but I keep it at simple sentence responses. I'm finding that I want to talk about him less and less.

Zues, I have been thinking a lot about your post regarding dating. I don't necessarily disagree with what your saying, and I do go back and forth. And I too have thought some of the arguments that you pose.

These were some of my thoughts contradicting that argument.

1. Yes dating might be self medicating. So is drinking. So are anti depressants. (2 things I've stayed away from) Both have side effects. Sometimes we just need something to make life more pleasant. As long as we don't abuse it, do the benefits outweigh the side effects?

2. What is dating anyway? It's getting to know someone. Possibly for friendship or something more. Is getting to know someone really self medicating, or is it just opening your life up to new experiences, opinions, banter, company etc?

My favorite quote..."hell is other people". But then again, so is life.

3. Perhaps I'm healthier now then ever before. I know I'm a lot more laid back about people and life in general. I listen better. I'm less judgemental. I met my husband when I was in my early 20s. God. I would not want to be that person again! Yet I dated in my 20s, knowing so much less then I do now.

4. I don't know if I will ever be truly healed. I still haven't healed from that first relationship when I was 18! But I still pushed forward and had a 15 year relationship with my husband and a beautiful child. Waiting to be the best I can be would be like someone waiting to look like Arnold schwartzenneger before heading out to the beach. That can take years! And that person is missing out on the beauty and fun of being at the beach.

Anyway, these are just some quick thoughts. I'm not sure what or if there are correct answers. I look forward to exchanging ideas on this. I am going to try to catch up soon on all of my old friends posts. And resume journaling again.

[Zues126]

Good to hear from you j. I've been waiting patiently for the reply, no hurry here. But you've been in my thoughts.

Your reply is interesting. Self medicating, getting to know other people, health, healing...all things on a spectrum. All about balance. But when debating this requires you go to an extreme end of the spectrum, that's when I question it. I am not suggesting you wait until you are 'fully healed', whatever that means, or that you don't self medicate in any way, or that you wait to be perfect. Those are exaggerations of my point designed to rationalize doing something that would make us feel better in the here and now. This is why I don't trust feelings and thoughts. We can debate endlessly with ourselves and will ultimately do what we want, unless we have other guides to follow.

And, just for kicks, let's pretend that it could be either way. Maybe dating isn't a big deal right now, maybe it causes you and someone else a lot of pain, stunts your healing, and potentially gets you and your children in a sticky situation with someone that you regret being with. If you were thinking clearly looking at that risk/reward does it really make sense to rush into something? Would a person ready to make good choices about their next partner be so needy they couldn't run their own life for a year on their own? I'm not saying this well, but you get the point.

You don't need my permission, shoot, I'm in the minority, most people feel the same things you do and make the same conclusions. Just doesn't work for me, so I will cast my vote and beat to my own drum. I am over 2 years from BD and physical separation, and I still know in my heart I am sorting, reflecting, and recovering in a lot of ways. No, I will never 'fully heal', but I won't feel like my life is a bad dream with no waking. That's a feeling I still have sometimes, that I have good times amid a bad dream, not that life itself is a joy daily. I have felt that way before and know I can feel that way again. I am just not there yet, and it takes time. More time than I thought. Gosh, sometimes it takes time to understand how much time it takes because we want it to be 'better' so much we try to convince ourselves it's all better when it isn't. And we can forget what better feels like. But it will come, all I have to do is be patient and do what I know is right.

In the meantime I wish for you to have some of those peaceful and happy moments in the middle of the suffering. There is so much more lost than the companionship of an individual, the grieving process is reborn again and again. Shoot, I was flying back from Vegas yesterday and was reminded of a trip that I had taken XW to, I had won us a trip to Vegas, and at the airport on the way home we played this stupid slot machine with a bear trying to catch salmon, and we kept hitting, I don't remember the details but there was some bonus "salmon run" and the machine kept paying out, and we were laughing and laughing. And the trip after to Vegas where I beat a world champion in a big tournament for the first time and was written up in a magazine, and was so excited to come home to my wife who loved me and was proud of me. Yup, all gone, all past, now I wait at the airport by myself, and come home to type on divorce forums. I'm still digesting this all J.

Anyway, rambling again. But do take good care of yourself. Thanks for checking in. Take care of yourself legally, as long as you act with the entire family in mind and aren't punishing then you'll be moving the right direction. Hang in and keep posting.

[mustardseed]

zeus, I understand what you are saying about needing to learn to be alone before getting into another relationship. I used to listen to Dr. Joy Browne and she is adamant about the one year rule and it makes sense. However, I don't quite understand what constitutes dating as it relates to the one year rule. I've been tempted to call her show to see if I can get clarification.

Dating can mean a lot of things and if it weren't for dating I think I would have had a miserable, lonely, depressing year. I made it a point to get out of the house as much as possible this past year. Sometimes I had to go it alone, often I was able to recruit family, and other times I depended on male companions--dates. My female friends were/are NEVER available. But never in any of these circumstances was a possible relationship a goal. Does that still count as dating?

I noticed the first time out that the lines blurred on both sides. There was a lot of confusion and frustration. After too many "second chances" I realized that friendship will not work for me so I stepped back.

Another sitch slipped into a routine that seemed dangerously close to R territory--but with some open communication and putting our other obligations ahead of the routine of seeing each other we both were able to take a step back. And it has been a good thing. I enjoy his friendship and companionship, but we are both focused on our own growth after D and were on the same page about putting on the breaks.

Most recent has a significant amount of physical distance that forces us to take things super slow. His D timeline is almost identical to mine--and with similar family make up. So many parallels. We talk often, only met once. I probably could have easily gotten caught up in this one, but the distance and slow pace has given me the space to reflect on why the draw, and how I feel about red flags. I think if he were local I might have made exceptions and overlooked things I recently decided were deal breakers. Now I am analyzing it all from a distance.

I've learned a lot about how I communicate. The consequences of my actions on others. And the importance of knowing exactly where to draw lines--and the significance of those lines. I don't think I would have realized that I needed to learn those things had I waited a year and jumped right into looking for an R sort of dating. I probably would have once again let things move too quickly. Overlooked the red flags or deal breakers, or rationalized them. I would have Jumped from meeting, to fireworks, to obligation--just like my old pattern--without paying attention to red flags, or my responses, or boundaries.

This casual dating is really a life lesson and I don't regret doing it. I absolutely plan to follow the one year rule for serious dating with R as an end goal, but in the mean time I see no harm in making friends with men in a date-like situation. I am upfront, and I learned from guy#1 fiasco how to stay true to my word and not accidentally send mixed messages. To take time to assess rather than leading with emotion. My kids do not need to know who I socialize with.

[JujuB]

Thank you for your posts zues and mustard seed


Here is a reason I admittedly should not be dating...

That guy I went on a date with is lots of fun and we have been texting and exchanging funny banter and getting to know each other. We hung out in non date group settings as well. He is very sensitive and seems to like me a lot. It really feels great to have that attention and to just laugh with someone. But yesterday was an awful day regarding my son and husband exchange. Like so awful I am still crying over it, and I realized I cannot discuss that with him. I am going through serious stuff, and discussing that stuff would just be so inappropriate.

So this is what has me in tears...

I have been having so much trouble with my sons behavior. I don't really know what is norm for a 5 year old. He is really mad at me and talks to me like a teenager would. STBX switched weekedns around and basically went 2 weekends in row without seeing son. Yesterday when he came to drop off son, my son did not want to leave. He was begging father to take him back. He kept running back to fathers car. Major crying. I tried to help once but then went back inside because son was trying to run away from me.

In all fairness, STBX was telling him he loves him...but then I heard him say to son that if he doesn't go inside he can't come back on Wednesday (husband is taking him 5 days this weekend) I overheard that and when son was running away to car, I told him that he should never threaten son with something like that. STBX responded with "well your staying inside and not helping". Thne I was saying to son that he saw daddy this weekend and will see him all day on Thursday and he said right in front of his father " I didn't get to see daddy because he was sleeping and working. I only got to play with grandma" and STBX responded that he took him to trampoline house.

For almost 2 hrs Son literally cried and had tantrum about how he wants to be with his father and how when he is 16 he is going to drive to daddy's house and how daddy lied to him and told him I was going to give him a prize. How he wants his daddy to live with him. He called his dad and asked him to move back home and husband said "no mommy and me are separated but I love you" and then son said "if you change your mind you can come back" Husband called tonight to talk to him for the second time in over a year.

I feel really bad about my son. Someone told me that he can be mad at me because I am a safe person for him to be mad at. I know that in life no one has things perfect or fair. But we always want the best for our children and I hate that son is suffering. I am fearful that son will neglect his own child just like husband was neglected by his dad. Because my son doesn't know better.

And here's the scary thing. Of course I say I am not looking for someone to father my son, but deep down I do want a father figure for my son to model.

[Zues126]

Tough day J.

Don't get too far ahead of yourself. It's easy to do, but it's a form of distorted thinking to start extrapolating. Like "H treated S badly", to "S won't have a father figure", to "S will do this to his children", to "My family's will now be broken and in pain for generations because of WAH!" Somewhere in that train of thought you have to pause and think maybe you're getting a little carried away.

Just because things hurt today doesn't mean they will in a year. Just because WAH is acting this way doesn't mean he will in a year.

It's obvious he feels the need to create some personal space for himself, to have his own boundaries, to be his own person. It's a power struggle, he is making the point to you, son, and himself, that he gets to do what he wants to do. Once you and son stop fighting him and he realizes that he gets to do what he wants, but that he lives with those consequences, he will likely realize that he doesn't really want to not see his son, or to not have a good relationship with him.

I personally wasn't a good father until BD for a number of reasons, but I've been closer with them than ever the last couple of years. I would do it again if I could, but we are currently a close family and all is well. They will know their dad, that is for sure.

Point is that people can change. I get upset with WAS's because they say things like "I can't spend the rest of my life like this" or "I don't like who you are" or "ILYBINILWY" acting like those are all permanent things, when in reality those things would all change if they waited them out for a few years. Let's not make the same mistake of assuming they will always be this way or making things more catastrophic than they are. They are bad enough already, no need to make them worse

[mustardseed]

Hugs to you juju. That is the hardest part to see your child hurting and knowing the fix is out of your hands. You are the safe place for him. It is a good thing but also can feel helpless. You are doing an amazing job through all of this.

[Altair]

Juju,
Transitions for five year olds are very traumatic, if you can look at it that way. It's hard to go from one house to the next, and the kids might act out, emotionally. It doesn't necessarily mean what they are saying! It's exhaustion, too much candy, etc., etc.. Some kids melt down at any transition, even when it is good to good. So chin up, don't worry about how Dad brokers it with promises, let him stabilize during transition, I bet the next day after rest and sugar decrease things will get better.

[Cessna]

Zues126, your last post was very succinct and really resonated with me. Nothing is permanent! People do change! Yep, people and relationships are dynamic. Fluid. Just like the emotions we are going through now. Time creates change if nothing else. Motivation certainly does too. I just bet that 99% people on this site have made some major changes (for the good). Great words!

[JujuB]

Today, I had a great day with my son. I gave him my 110%. I completely focused on him and his behavior was so much better. He is hurting and doesn't understand and how can he not be affected by my feelings these past few years...poor kid.

I recognize that I am continuing some bad cycles...zues pointed it out and yes, I am totally catastrophising. I am focusing on what husband is doing and has done and staying really mad.

Zues, it is interesting that you have identified my husband's actions as a power struggle. When I was talking to my DB coach a long time ago, she had mentioned that as well...especially regarding the child support. i have given up on fighting him and trying to convince him of anything back in April. I would be fine if I didn't have to bother with him at all. I no longer want him as a partner. The less communication, the better for me. I only talk to him when I absolutely have to.

But at the same time, I am struggling with the perceived injustice of it all. My son told me how he brought him and grandmother to a cheese shop where daddy's friend with purple hair brought them food... Now my husband never went to artesian cheese shops to eat. And it really bothers me that he is bringing son around to girls to probably show off how cute my son is. Perhaps he thinks it makes him look like a good father? And then I remember how he criticized me for not being ambitious enough???? That ambition would make me more attractive!!! I went to school for years to do what i do and he's dating a cheese shop girl?? Not that there anything wrong with that... But how dare he insult me that way when I was raising our son in addition to working? I just think he is trash and I am angry and I have been angry and sometimes it's really hard for me to let it go.

I am mad that people are capable of this. I know I am catastrophizing but I am really angry that there's a good chance next guy will do something like this. How does one know?

Mustard seed, you keep seeing red flags. But those are so hard. I think about how my dad grew up with a bipolar mom and abusive dad with parents that fought all the time, yet he was a loyal and devoted husband. If someone told me that story I would see that as a red flag. My husband did not even know about his families dysfunction so I didn't see the red flags. And I am so thrown off by that.

What are the red flags?

[Zues126]

J, being angry for what he has done and getting angry for what hasn't happened are two different things.

You have every right to be angry for what has been done.

As for 'red flags', and 'how do you know if the next person will do something like this'...to me I don't know that the next person WON'T do something like this. This might be a bit pessimistic, but prior to my pessimism I was idealistic and naive. I had no idea how marriage worked, or as is usually the case, didn't. Having been on these boards for a couple of years I see the fall out, I see the negativity of both the WAS and the LBS of their exes, I see the infidelity rates, I hear people continue to proudly glorify their individual happiness and swear off the 'abuse' of being in a marriage.

So personally I already know that if I get into a relationship I am my partner's future ex, that it is just a matter of time before I am the abusive a-hole that is forcing her to lock her heart in a box, withdraw, walk on eggshells, be the anchor for her kite, diminish her and keep her from soaring and being the person she wants to be. And I know that I will be cast away and she will celebrate her freedom and prove she made the right decision by how happy and free she feels when she burns apart our life.

If I ever post an online dating profile I might just lead with that. Tell them I'm an abusive ahole that will diminish them and make them walk on eggshells, I have personality disorders and family of origin issues, and addictions, and will emotionally abuse her. Because that's probably what they're going to think of me at some point. If they are willing to sign up for that, maybe I'll be able to exceed their expectations. But if I have to court them and pretend that I can be their prince charming, well, it's just a matter of when the bomb blows.

When I see DBers talking about their great new partners I cringe. There are no great partners. They are all horrible, we just don't know how yet. It's just a matter of whether these horrible partners can stick it out long enough to have moments of surprising happiness in the middle. Dating/courting is like a hormone induced optical illusion designed to procreate our species, I get that new partners make us feel good and we can fill in the gaps of our ignorance with fantasy and hope, but we who have been through this should know better than to take that perception too seriously.

This is all tongue in cheek and I hope no one takes me too seriously. The bigger point is that while I feel this way now, this to me is just proof that I have zero business talking to other females right now. So don't sweat the red flags, just shut the dating door and work through your anger. If in a few years you wake up and feel optimistic about the world around you and the men in it, then hey, you'll be in a good place to meet someone that is less horrible than the rest. How romantic...

[JujuB]

. There are no great partners. They are all horrible, we just don't know how yet. It's just a matter of whether these horrible partners can stick it out long enough to have moments of surprising happiness in the middle. Dating/courting is like a hormone induced optical illusion designed to procreate our species, I get that new partners make us feel good and we can fill in the gaps of our ignorance with fantasy and hope, but we who have been through this should know better than to take that perception too seriously

Hahaha! I love this. I agree. ( Can I use it in my upcoming maid of honor speech this weekend? ) I'll certainly toast to one day meeting someone less horrible then the rest.

[Painter]

Zues, I get that you are partly/mostly joking, but I have a bit of a reaction to your notion that all women are going to label their partners abusive if they don't get along. It can be seem as mocking by those who have actually been abused and walked on eggshells. I know you don't approve of abuse but I've also read posts whet it sounds like you almost dismiss the idea that it happens very often.

I have never been with an emotionally abusive or manipulative man until I met H (one BF with emotional problems hit me once), and I still hesitate to call him that, but I have to wonder when I reacted with getting hot and cold and my heart would be racing when he suddenly started yelling in the next room, or when I startled and cringed when he slammed his fist in the table, or when he would come quickly close up to me in anger with his shoulders squared, apparently trying to intimidate me.

Or when he would rant and yell and curse at me for a perceived neglect for 20-30 minutes. Or have a complete fit over $25 that he wasn't even paying (he makes 6 figures). Or just use anger to get what he wanted (including sex).

Do you call behavior like that abusive?

[Zues126]

There could hardly be a more heated debate than what constitutes abuse. It's an easy case to make that there needs to be a war against abuse, it's never ok, it needs to be stopped. All of which is completely true, but doesn't address the question of what abuse is.

I am not qualified to define where abuse becomes excessive and a spouse should file D to protect themselves. There is definitely a time and place. But I also believe it is possible that defining abuse more and more loosely can hurt the individuals these movements were designed to help.

Suppose that our society defined abuse as any relationship in which either spouse ever raised their voice or lost their temper to the point their spouse felt uneasy and uncomfortable. Wouldn't that apply to 100% of couples at one time or another? And if our message was 'Don't allow yourself to be abused, abuse is bad, you must fight it by not enabling it, be strong enough to stand up', wouldn't that then imply that all marriages should end?

Clearly there are abusive marriages and marriages that need to be aborted for survival reasons. And on the other end of the spectrum there are normal marriages, that have some conflict, some adversity, but that fall within the range of 'normal'. The problem is that as we try to educate our society and increase the awareness and priority on preventing abuse, it has the additional effect of making the abuse detectors more and more sensitive and include more and more of the behavior that historically has been accepted as normal.

I believe this is contributing to a rise in divorce. And even then people can defend that, saying "better to be single for ever than to be abused, humanity needs to evolve before it's worthy of partnering".

Am I suggesting that we send the message to 'suck it up, stick it out, make it work for the kids even if it takes your life?' NO NO NO. No.

But the message of "you shouldn't EVER feel scared, controlled, hurt, or make sacrifices in your life for your partner, because that is abuse, and you are a free spirit that should soar", well, that's not how marriage works either, and I'm not sure it's helpful.

Watching this all play out makes it feel like a dangerous pool to go swimming in. Speaking specifically about me I can assure you that XW has me labelled as emotionally abusive, controlling, diminishing, hurtful, manipulative, and that she had to leave because she was walking on eggshells, had no self worth left, and was dying inside. But in my opinion I am not abusive. I didn't hit her. I didn't call her names. I didn't cut her off from friends. I didn't control the finances. I loved her with all my heart, wanted nothing more than to make her the happiest woman in the world, and that thought drove me every day from sun up to sun down. FOR SURE if you followed me around with a camera over my ten year marriage my top 5-10 worst moments would look down right horrible, and if that represented my daily interactions then it would paint a different picture...but in my assessment I am a typical man trying to navigate through life and marriage and struggling with my humanity the best I can.

But when it comes to marriage it doesn't really matter what I think, it matters what my partner thinks, and to your point I am somewhat serious when I say that I don't feel like partnering because I don't want to be labelled/judged/condemned of such an accusation and then cast aside. No thanks. I see how this works, I don't want to play. So just as some don't want to remarry because they don't need the abuse, I don't want to remarry because I don't need to be accused of the abuse. Of course this can change, and there are many people that share these beliefs that I would feel safe with, that could also feel safe with me. So we shall see.

I don't have answers. I guess the pendulum will swing, there will always be abuse on one side, there will always be divorce on the other, and our society will fumble around trying to find the right outlooks and values to minimize the pain and provide the structure for some positives in the middle of it all. I just hope to create awareness of the costs of defining abuse too liberally, not so we accept it in any way, but so we can give ourselves the best chance of finding that balance point and getting along with each other the best we can.

[JujuB]

Hi painter

My husband said that I was emotionally and verbally abusive. He was having pvcs, and a fibs. He said that he wanted to die he was so miserable.

In my mind, I was trying to communicate to let him know I wanted him to spend more time with son and I, I wanted him to wake up earlier, and I was frusturated over his chronic lateness.

(People that meet me in real life tend to say I'm pretty calm. At work I'm given the pts. That others have difficulty with, and my best friend of over 20 years laughs because she has only seen me yell once...and that was at someone who was driving really recklessly)

The only thing I can think of is that with husband, my emotions were too involved and when I thought I was communicating something he was taking it very personally.

Anyway, I think that people do unfairly label abuse. I think they don't understand that marriage requires work and patience and forgiveness and requires looking and appreciating the stuff that is important. I think it also takes a person that is capable of living a life that is not always comfortable.

A really stupid immature analogy..but I'm gonna post anyway. My husband could never handle being without air conditioning. Even in weather that wasn't stifling. When he lived with my parents it drove them crazy obviously because of the price, but also because it's summer. Summers are hot and you deal unless it's in the 90s with really High humidity levels.

Anyway. I just feel like my husband couldn't deal with a lot.

That being said, I have been reading your posts for a while, And I think your husband was very abusive. The serial cheating alone is abusive in my mind not to mention the other stuff. It is completely different.

[JujuB]

For me, being called abusive and then later having my words distorted to make it look like I was that crazy mom trying to keep poor hubby away from son was REALLY traumatizing. It made me really question myself. It made it difficult for me to make decisions. Having the person I trusted and committed myself to villify me the way he did was probably the worst part. I feel really damaged because if it. It's like I'm not sure how to be anymore.

[Painter]

Zues,

You said "scared, controlled, hurt, or make sacrifices".

Those, IMO, fall into different categories. Scared would mean you are abused. You should never accept feeling scared of your partner, especially if it happens more than once. If your partner scares you, he or she needs to work on their emotional regulation.

Controlled can be abusive but also a feeling that a non-committed partner can blame to have an A (like my WH did).

Being hurt or making sacrifices happen in every relationship. If you feel hurt a lot, I would say it's time to see a MC. Some people may take things too personally, others may express themselves in a hurtful manner without realizing it. If the hurt is inflicted intentionally, it becomes abuse.

There's also the issue of combination of partners. If both come from a home where loud yelling is the way to handle conflict, they'll probably be fine with it. If one comes from that kind of home and the other comes from a FOO where calm conversation or even sweeping things under the rug was the norm, it's going to feel overwhelming or even abusive for the more quiet partner.

But I don't think you should judge all relationships based on your experience. I personally don't know a single woman who has left her H due to abuse.

[Painter]

Juju, did your H ever have a thorough physical? The heart issues and heat sensitivity, along with the emotional sensitivity and sleep issues, could indicate a health problem, for instance hyperthyroidism, which causes both those physical and emotional symptoms.

[JujuB]

Hmm. Interesting painter. He used to sleep till 2 in the afternoon as well. And he did have weight issues, although he wasn't the healthiest of eaters either.

I can no longer make a suggestion about Dr's anyway. He never listened when I did and we were together.

[Painter]

Untreated hyper- or hypothyroidism can be fatal, so you may want to suggest that he gets it checked just for that reason. Or suggest it to his mother, she seems to have some influence?

If he ever saw a doctor for his heart problems, it should have been checked at that time but sometimes they don't think outside their box.

[Zues126]

For me, being called abusive and then later having my words distorted to make it look like I was that crazy mom trying to keep poor hubby away from son was REALLY traumatizing. It made me really question myself. It made it difficult for me to make decisions. Having the person I trusted and committed myself to villify me the way he did was probably the worst part. I feel really damaged because if it. It's like I'm not sure how to be anymore.

I've been put off at times by the personal growth attitude on these forums.

In the beginning it's "I want to grow so I can save my marriage". Then it's "I want to grow so I can be healthy in a future relationship". Both very reasonable, good desires.

How can personal growth be bad? When it supports an unrealistic and impractical view of relationships. If we are convinced that through personal growth we are going to be more mature, selfless, balanced, less needy, able to hold out for a healthier relationship, and better recognize the 'flags' of others and find a better, more mature partner, without foo/personality/addiction disorders, and somehow through our growth, maturity, independence, self love, and wisdom, we are going to have this wholesome robust marriage that we've always longed for...in the end I don't think that helps anyone, because it disqualifies almost all potential partners either at the onset or once the bubble bursts.

I personally feel a big gap between how I feel about myself, and how I feel others would feel about me. Personally I feel I am an awesome guy, and a great potential partner. Like some woman would be very, very lucky to get me. I am 100% committed, not just to a relationship, but to making it a good relationship. I am smart enough to understand a lot of how relationships work, but humble enough to understand that what my partner thinks is just as real and important and I don't have it all figured out. I am gainfully employed, driven, loyal, funny, and dedicated to my partner. I would never cheat. And I am prepared to navigate through all seasons for the long haul...YET...though I feel I am a great catch, I don't feel like I'd meet the requirements of most women or pass their red flags, I feel I'd bring some 'deal breakers' that would eliminate me. It's very odd, I feel I am a catch that no one would want. I see the confident, tall, suave, alpha males, and think I am more genuine and committed and tougher and deeper than most, yet in the social market value world their stock is high, and mine is disqualified. I feel the standards are unreasonably escalated standards. So it's like I imagine a few dating types:

Inexperienced women that don't know what they are signing up for, and will likely bail when things get tough.

Divorced/separated women who's response is to say "I won't put up with that again, I'm more mature and I deserve someone else who is too, I am not going to ever be that needy again so I don't have to settle for that crap..." I won't make that cut.

Partial relationships, in which both people settle for a half a$$ relationship, where they don't marry or move in together, but retain bf/gf status and go places on the weekends.

I have learned a lot from my experience, and I'm not the man I was, but I don't subscribe to the idea that I am going to bloom into Zues2.0 and I'll suddenly be worthy of a relationship and love. Personally, I think I was worthy of love and commitment before, and while I would do things differently, if the partner that married me, committed to me, had children with me, spent the first part of her life with me, and gave herself to me without reservation and regardless of my flaws...if SHE left, then how is a person with higher standards and more screening and more cautious to make a commitment and stronger boundaries willing to put up with less crap...how is THAT person going to put up with me?

That's why I am discouraged. That is why I am sometimes put off with the compulsion towards personal growth. I'm doing the best I can, but I do have foo/personality/addiction battles, and I don't want any relationship I enter to be conditional on meeting standards I don't know I can achieve.

This isn't aimed to be critical of DBers that are growing, recovering, and trying to avoid toxic situations. That's what we are here to do.

These are just my feelings. Mine. My issues. But I wanted to share and talk about it. Maybe there are other people that feel the same way and can understand this. If nothing else, maybe it helps people understand where I'm coming from on some of my less mainstream views.

Take care all!

[Painter]

Personally, I think I was worthy of love and commitment before, and while I would do things differently, if the partner that married me, committed to me, had children with me, spent the first part of her life with me, and gave herself to me without reservation and regardless of my flaws...if SHE left, then how is a person with higher standards and more screening and more cautious to make a commitment and stronger boundaries willing to put up with less crap...how is THAT person going to put up with me?

The flaw I see in this argument is that you're accepting the premise that she left you because something was wrong with you.

All spouses who leave are going to blame the partner. And even if they don't, LBS will ask what's wrong so the WAS comes up with something.

I think what we can look at in ourselves is whether we have some really bad habits and/or if we didn't do what we should have done when the R showed signs of trouble, and try to change those habits and be sure to not let things slide in the future.

And always remember that you weren't the one who left.

[J5K]

Zues,

It doesn't matter who the next person is. What matters is that you both connect and communicate. M is work.
You, I and others on this board own 50% of that work.
You still DB, validate and do all the positive things that you learned from every marriage book you have read.
You categorize three types of partners/relationships in the future. Labeling will not make a difference on how healthy the R or M is. What will make a difference is hearing your partner and how you take action on what you hear.

Although you will have to learn how to behave differently with your new partner, at least you have a baseline from a past R and can assess the difference and build on that. Will it be more difficult to assess than if you reconciled with your ex because your new partner may have different a different love language or different needs/wants? Maybe.

The good thing is you are more educated on relationships now and will be able to recognize those wants/needs quicker than you did in your last R.

[RAI]

For me, being called abusive and then later having my words distorted to make it look like I was that crazy mom trying to keep poor hubby away from son was REALLY traumatizing. It made me really question myself. It made it difficult for me to make decisions. Having the person I trusted and committed myself to villify me the way he did was probably the worst part. I feel really damaged because if it. It's like I'm not sure how to be anymore.

This ^^^ is how I feel. My W, ILs, and her L are vilifying me. It really rocks your world. Sometimes I am not sure who I am anymore. It really makes you question yourself. It is fascinating how we can be brainwashed by others, but it is very difficult to brainwash ourselves. Why is it that we trust what our Ss say - or at least are very affected by it - but we cannot convince ourselves of our true merit. I suppose if we could, we would not be on these boards right now. Everyone is here because at some level we were damaged by the things our S did and/or said to us.

RAI

[Zues126]

For me, being called abusive and then later having my words distorted to make it look like I was that crazy mom trying to keep poor hubby away from son was REALLY traumatizing. It made me really question myself. It made it difficult for me to make decisions. Having the person I trusted and committed myself to villify me the way he did was probably the worst part. I feel really damaged because if it. It's like I'm not sure how to be anymore.

This ^^^ is how I feel. My W, ILs, and her L are vilifying me. It really rocks your world. Sometimes I am not sure who I am anymore. It really makes you question yourself. It is fascinating how we can be brainwashed by others, but it is very difficult to brainwash ourselves. Why is it that we trust what our Ss say - or at least are very affected by it - but we cannot convince ourselves of our true merit. I suppose if we could, we would not be on these boards right now. Everyone is here because at some level we were damaged by the things our S did and/or said to us.

RAI

Or...maybe we can brainwash ourselves, and we are unfairly hard on ourselves. Because of that others that see our value or speak positively are dismissed or unheard, and those that speak critically we hear loudly and take it as 'truth' because it aligns with our preconceived beliefs.

[JujuB]

It's been a long time since I last posted. Some interesting posts, I am only just reading. So sorry. I have really been struggling. My anxiety has been at an all time high regarding proceeding with certain legal issues, that I won't get too into just yet, much as I love and appreciate all advise. I have been procrastinating and just ignoring it and now I have to face it and it's really stressful and disturbing.

It basically been an issue of having to make a legal move that morally bothers me, but is an absolute must as per every lawyer I speak to. It's an issue of not knowing what the right decision is and just freezing and being incapable of making any decision even at my own expense. I feel like I am betraying a husband who left me and I know that's crazy. I feel guilt over my role in relationship demise. I worry that husband is taking advantage and hiding stuff from me as well. I also worry that I have villified husband and that I am in fact wrong in my assessments and follow up actions.

I am basically really miserable and depressed and have been having trouble coming on these forums, but would like to catch up again.

[JujuB]

I have also been having so much trouble with my son. Which is another huge source of stress. The behavior is just so hard and there has been a recent diagnosis from psychologist that he may be high functioning but on spectrum. Meds have been suggested, but something I will not consider as of yet. I am trying to arrange family therapy for him and it's been really hard to even find someone.

[JujuB]

For me, being called abusive and then later having my words distorted to make it look like I was that crazy mom trying to keep poor hubby away from son was REALLY traumatizing. It made me really question myself. It made it difficult for me to make decisions. Having the person I trusted and committed myself to villify me the way he did was probably the worst part. I feel really damaged because if it. It's like I'm not sure how to be anymore.

I've been put off at times by the personal growth attitude on these forums.

In the beginning it's "I want to grow so I can save my marriage". Then it's "I want to grow so I can be healthy in a future relationship". Both very reasonable, good desires.

How can personal growth be bad? When it supports an unrealistic and impractical view of relationships. If we are convinced that through personal growth we are going to be more mature, selfless, balanced, less needy, able to hold out for a healthier relationship, and better recognize the 'flags' of others and find a better, more mature partner, without foo/personality/addiction disorders, and somehow through our growth, maturity, independence, self love, and wisdom, we are going to have this wholesome robust marriage that we've always longed for...in the end I don't think that helps anyone, because it disqualifies almost all potential partners either at the onset or once the bubble bursts.

i really do not disagree with this. It would be nice to be accepted for my imperfections and to accept someone else's imperfections. For me, it's trying to find someone committed and faithful. And accepting that my husband was not (although not sure about the faithful part) . My parents are so flawed to the point where you can probably make a sitcom about it. And they just deal with and accept those flaws. That is what I want. I think the red flags I seek in someone are going to be based on finding someone committed and faithful vs. caring about other issues. Although this scares me, because I thought my husband was like that.



I personally feel a big gap between how I feel about myself, and how I feel others would feel about me. Personally I feel I am an awesome guy, and a great potential partner. Like some woman would be very, very lucky to get me. I am 100% committed, not just to a relationship, but to making it a good relationship. I am smart enough to understand a lot of how relationships work, but humble enough to understand that what my partner thinks is just as real and important and I don't have it all figured out. I am gainfully employed, driven, loyal, funny, and dedicated to my partner. I would never cheat. And I am prepared to navigate through all seasons for the long haul...YET...though I feel I am a great catch, I don't feel like I'd meet the requirements of most women or pass their red flags, I feel I'd bring some 'deal breakers' that would eliminate me. It's very odd, I feel I am a catch that no one would want. I see the confident, tall, suave, alpha males, and think I am more genuine and committed and tougher and deeper than most, yet in the social market value world their stock is high, and mine is disqualified. I feel the standards are unreasonably escalated standards. So it's like I imagine a few dating types:

I think it's great that you are confident in what you can bring to a relationship. that's a sign of a really nice guy, because I notice you do not seem to be making demands of what you want in a female. From a female perspective, I wouldn't worry about the social market value. I remember reading an old post between you and jelly regarding those concerns. Quite frankly my husband would score high on those scales, but those types of scales are just so superficial and mean nothing.(car driven, shoulder/waist ratios???) you wouldn't want a person that those things matter to anyway. You don't necessarily have to be classically good looking to be attractive to someone.

Inexperienced women that don't know what they are signing up for, and will likely bail when things get tough.

Divorced/separated women who's response is to say "I won't put up with that again, I'm more mature and I deserve someone else who is too, I am not going to ever be that needy again so I don't have to settle for that crap..." I won't make that cut.

Partial relationships, in which both people settle for a half a$$ relationship, where they don't marry or move in together, but retain bf/gf status and go places on the weekends.

i wrote something similar to mustard seed regarding potential dating pool. Except my choice b is the divorced men who walked away from their wives and kids but claim their wives pushed them away. I am currently dating someone in choice a. (And yes it may be too early to date someone but that's another story and post because I'm having some doubts). Major red flag for me is that he feels divorce is ok and that he doesn't understand that marriages are not based on things always being easy and wonderful betweent 2 people?. That it is not a matter of meant to be

I have learned a lot from my experience, and I'm not the man I was, but I don't subscribe to the idea that I am going to bloom into Zues2.0 and I'll suddenly be worthy of a relationship and love. Personally, I think I was worthy of love and commitment before, and while I would do things differently, if the partner that married me, committed to me, had children with me, spent the first part of her life with me, and gave herself to me without reservation and regardless of my flaws...if SHE left, then how is a person with higher standards and more screening and more cautious to make a commitment and stronger boundaries willing to put up with less crap...how is THAT person going to put up with me?



That's why I am discouraged. That is why I am sometimes put off with the compulsion towards personal growth. I'm doing the best I can, but I do have foo/personality/addiction battles, and I don't want any relationship I enter to be conditional on meeting standards I don't know I can achieve.

i agree and have written something similar. Especially concerning losing the parent of your child. But it's hard coming to terms with the fact that your spouse did not feel that way and there is nothing you can do about it regardless of whether you are right. I know that any spouse or relationship I have is going to have issues. So as long as it's not unfaithfulness, it might as well be the parent of my child.

This isn't aimed to be critical of DBers that are growing, recovering, and trying to avoid toxic situations. That's what we are here to do.

These are just my feelings. Mine. My issues. But I wanted to share and talk about it. Maybe there are other people that feel the same way and can understand this. If nothing else, maybe it helps people understand where I'm coming from on some of my less mainstream views.

Take care all!

[JujuB]

So I surpassed a major milestone....I filed for divorce and husband was served. Lawyers office just called me and I cried hearing he was served.

It felt like a sneaky way to do it. I feel sick. But was told that where we live, it absolutely had to be performed that way. It had potential of being costly if it wasn't. Pure business and tactics. If I didn't do it first, he would have had to do it to me and then I would have been at disadvantage. I hate that. I hate that this is a strategic game.

The statistics show that more women file for divorce. But perhaps they do, after their husbands leave them and in most cases cheat (although i still don't know that he actually cheated) .

This was a tough thing for me to do. Husband wanted mediation. I had concerns regarding mediation but have informed attorney I want things amicable and peaceful. It is so expensive though and we had no real assets. I just did not trust husband and there was never any financial transparency. I still do not know if I made the right decision. It does not feel right. Maybe this will avoid nasty words in a mediators office? I have no legal background though, and just did not feel comfortable negotiating for myself. I knew my emotions would come to play. It didn't make sense to pay a mediator and then to pay lawyers to renegotiate. Why not just pay the lawyers????

Anyway, I am feeling really down..it really is like BD all over again. All my feeling of rejection, and wishing husband would have been willing to work on the marriage are retriggered. My guilt and regret over my role in the marital demise Is back. Sadness about the loss is back. I am really depressed. I do not feel hope or happiness for new opportunities and experiences and for new people.

The only thing is I really have no choice or control in any of this.

My son wants to make love potion number 12 so that we can both drink it and stay married.

[Zephyr]

sorry you were put in this position to have to protect yourself like this. doesn't make it that much easier to swallow.

Thank you for sharing

((((juju))))

[JulieH]

Thanks zephyr

I'm doing a little better. Finally taking action instead of staying in limbo has helped me a bit. We needed to move forwaRd. Husband was pushing to do so and I guess, I did it in the way that methe my best interests.

I'm sad though. It didn't have to be like this and it's a real loss.

[JujuB]

Just journaling


I keep coming back to intense anger at husband. I guess I share that with a lot of the WS on the board. That intense anger that they had for us which allowed them to leave and in most cases betray. I understand that anger so well. I think I use my anger to avoid mourning and grief although the grief peeks in more and more.

Divorce has made me really examine myself. Was I that bad of a wife to warrant the way husband treated me in the end. Is he that big of an a... To treat and neglect me and our son the way that he did.

Someone told me to forgive myself and husband that I have to move past perfectionism. I was hard on husband because I am hard on myself.

I need to find a therapist to examine the relationship I had with hubby. I was always criticising and demanding but I always felt neglected.

I am kind of in the beginning phases of a new relationship. I do not criticize nor make demands. I'm really just living for present but I am so afraid of invading his space and demanding too much time and being needy. I'm under the assumption that men want tons of independence. At times I don't feel completely confident to expect anything because I am an older, single mom. etc. I think he is becoming attached and I am remaining detached because I expect what seems to be inevitable in relationships. His actions are all based on someone that wants to be with me. He wanted to use vacation days so he could accommodate my schedule and spend more time with me. He texts me all the time and talks to me on phone for close to 3 hrs. He talks in terms of future. He confides in me. Things that I am surprised he would confide in me. These are all things my husband never did.

Of course I wonder if he's like that because I'm detached and that's the appeal?

Dating someone does not take away the hurt and pain and feelings of rejection I face with the divorce. Not at all. It just gives me some type of hope maybe or someone pleasant to look forward to.

[Rouky]

I think that even if we are with someone, going through D is a grieving process as we have spend a good number of years with H. Don't be too hard on yourself.
One thing I'm learning the hard way is actions are louder than words. Look at what the new person is prepared to do for you. You are closing a chapter of your life to start a new one, embrace it and live day by day.

(((((Hugs)))))))

[Zues126]

J, I hesitated to reply. There is no secret I feel pretty strongly about the one year rule. As a result, I often times don't post in threads where people are dating again so soon, the same as I essentially never post in someone's thread when they come to these boards saying they initiated a divorce earlier in their life (Not that they are horrible people, but these days I just don't mingle with that group much).

But I am challenging myself for a few reasons. One is that I'm still wrestling with this within myself. Part of me thinks it's normal and natural to distance myself in this way, the same way I don't hang out with people that drink- not that there's anything seriously wrong with drinking, just not my element. But part of me thinks I need to be more allowing. Below I acknowledge that I, too, was critical in my marriage, and I am trying to figure out these balances between boundaries and tolerance. Most of all though J, you are one of my favoritest posters on this forum, you have inspired me with your journey, and you have supported me through mine, and I'm not prepared to write you off because you were in a bad place and medicated a bit to get through (which is my own take on a new R. I acknowledge this is just my perspective, not saying it's 'correct'). And trust me, I wouldn't have any friends if those who cared for me weren't EXTREMELY tolerant in so many ways.

So please forgive my criticism. I can move past it if you can, and I would love to still be a J supporter. If there's one thing I've learned it's that there is no such thing as 'compatible', there's just people that can respect each other's differences and not let them get in the way of the positives that outnumber them.

Was I that bad of a wife...

You know I think we are all terrible spouses

...to warrant the way husband treated me in the end. Is he that big of an a... To treat and neglect me and our son the way that he did.

We live in a world where many people don't consider this that egregious. Your XH isn't a horrible person. He is a human with faults, and one of them is buying into the idea that personal happiness are all important and trump values and commitment (whereas
I believe values and commitment are all important and we aren't entitled to happiness, yet ironically true happiness comes from honoring those values).

While we can let go of our anger and find forgiveness in the sense of not letting it poison our lives, I believe it is appropriate to always have a passionate distaste for these actions, and to cast our vote boldly within our center of influence so others may be inspired to follow a different path than your XH.

Someone told me to forgive myself and husband that I have to move past perfectionism. I was hard on husband because I am hard on myself.

I was hard on XW and that played a role in the breakdown of my M. I was 1,000 times harder on myself.

I'm all about finding forgiveness, and learning to manage my perfectionism. But I've accepted that I will always have a strong trace of perfectionism, or if it leaves it will go at it's own pace. We can learn and grow and change to a degree, but part of that growth is understanding what parts of us are who we are and accepting them and living with them. For me, continuing to drive towards the elimination of perfectionism would be a paradox, since it's really more of the same. Accepting that I'm wired a bit different than most people and being ok with it, but learning how to minimize the harm I cause to myself and others, and maximize the gifts that it brings to me and those I love- that is my game plan. And it probably won't work perfectly, but that's ok too.

I need to find a therapist to examine the relationship I had with hubby. I was always criticising and demanding but I always felt neglected.

Never a bad idea.

All in all J I'm really glad to see you posting again!!!

[Painter]

I believe values and commitment are all important and we aren't entitled to happiness, yet ironically true happiness comes from honoring those values.

I love this.

[JujuB]

Zues

I am glad you are still posting on my thread and I hope you continue to do so. I never minded your criticism. I like you and I really do respect what you have to say. Most of all, I respect your honesty.

I will be honest too. I agree with your thoughts regarding new relationships. Its rational, and makes a lot of sense. I reread a couple of posts back about your thoughts on dating and you are spot on. I'm not gonna kid myself and say I'm in a good place and emotionally/mentally stable. I am really damaged and very vulnerable. I'm angry, I'm remorseful, I'm grieving, I'm depressed. Most of all I'm tired. I recognize it. I don't really know what I'm doing, my feelings are all over the place but I'm just doing it anyway.

(I once posted that I would make a horrible super hero. I know better, but I would never give the retrieved money back to the banks. )

Maybe an analogy is a starving person is given a piece of chocolate cake that is begging to be eaten. Sure its not necessarily good for you but hard to resist. I don't really know and am just kind of taking things day by day I guess.

Regarding your challenge, I don't really like to drink at all either, but i have some great and interesting friends that do. In fact, some of my closest friends have done things in their pasts, that I morally disagree with. But by accepting them, I lose nothing.

i was never really able to accept my husband though. So go figure. One of the things I regret in our relationship. And perhaps, the necessary element for a successful marriage? I am still unable to accept and forgive him. Maybe this is what i need to work on for healing?

In fact, you and I are alike in this aspect. We are both so morally opposed to divorce that it becomes difficult to accept our spouse for ending the marriage. We both recognize that our marriages were unhealthy, and miserable. Yet I cannot speak to my husband and I certainly was unable to be his friend throughout this whole process. (the one thing the DB coach said was necessary for any chance at reconciliation)

When I told my husband i was uncomfortable with mediation, he responded that he respected my opinion. I don't know if that was a canned response of politeness but I can tell you that I never once respected his opinion regarding ending our marriage.

Im so tired of my feelings regarding husband. I am remembering less and less. Our marriage and memories are becoming more distant. My feelings are never reliable. And my beliefs are just my beliefs. They are not necessarily right either.

[JujuB]

So I Googled "guilt over divorcing wife" and I came across these forums that were written by WAS posters. It was really hard for me to read. A lot of them were female WAS, but I am sure the feelings were similar for my husband.

The posters wanted divorce. They were aware that they were detached and no longer invested in the marriage. They wanted their spouses to just leave them alone, find someone new and realize that the relationship was over so that they did not have to feel guilty.

There was all sorts of encouragement anx a sentiment on there regarding how necessary it is to leave a marriage that's not working and how to not allow the LBS to make them feel guilty.

It was really disturbing to me on such a deep level. The callousness of it. The lack of commitment and loyalty. The disregard for family and acceptance of impermanence... one poster quill, actually made this comment about how of course the LBS does not want the marriage to end because they no longer have the servitude of the WAS. Ugh.

They are as stuck on their beliefs of ending a unhealthy marriage as I am of preserving it. I recognize I can be wrong and regardless I have not power to change it.

My husband is so relieved I filed. I will never be a friendly coparent. I will never let this be easy for him. I really hate him for his beliefs... that family is disposable.

I hope more then anything that he is doomed to hurt and failed relationships.

I want him to regret this, but I can honestly say he never will. He is convinced this was the right decision. Just like many if those posters were.

For some reason, I can't let go even though it holds me back.

[Ginger1]

JuJu,

I was where you are. I wanted my ex to regret so bad what he did. I fantasized about some grand apology filled with what he knew was to be wrong and how he was truly sorry. The only sorry I ever got was "Sorry it had to be this way".

Pleeeeease do yourself a big favor. Do no read that stuff anymore. I used to be obsessed with researching what goes through the mind of the OW. It didn't bring me any comfort or understanding.

You'll let go when you are ready to let go. One day you just won't want to hold on anymore because you will realize the only person it is hurting is you.

I think you are an amazing woman and mother. I know the peace will come in time. You do have to work towards it, but when you are ready. get a voodoo doll if that's what you need right now:)

[Painter]

Juju, I don't know if you have a spiritual faith, but I have found great comfort in praying for WH. It started as praying for our M and family, and now I pray for him finding his way and making good choices and for healing of our family, which has been so fractured due to this. One of the effects of praying is that it releases my anger. Loving-kindness meditation would probably have the same effect.

(((((Juju)))))

[JujuB]

Thanks ginger.. some days are better then others certainly. Sometimes its hard to accept that there is no reward/punishment system in life. And in the scheme of things what I'm going through is no where near the worst things that can happen in life. I have to be in a decent mind set though.

Thanks Painter. we were never raised with any type of spiritual faith so I don't really have that to rely on. I think it would be nice though..to feel light spititually. Occasionally I can think like that, but it's pretty rare.

[2Lady]

Pleeeeease do yourself a big favor. Do no read that stuff anymore. I used to be obsessed with researching what goes through the mind of the OW. It didn't bring me any comfort or understanding.

I actually went to a forum for OW/OM today to see what they are thinking and I found it really helpful. But then my situation is a bit different and actually this is the sort of knowledge that can really help me.

I was actually focusing on posts where the OW/OM had been told by other posters that they likely were involved with someone going through a MLC and it was really interesting to see their reactions to that (mostly denial-because they thought it was just all LOOOOVE) and to see that the biggest issue that the OP is dealing with is lies from the affair partner and their shock when learning the truth or the inability to accept that they had been lied to. It made me feel fortunate that at least I can understand the process my husband is going through. Because I sure would not want to be on the other end and have no clue.

[Zues126]

(Still here J...building up for a monster post...each of the last few days I thought it was ready to erupt, but not yet, not yet...I'm running over things in my mind...I'll get there soon. Until then just know I'm thinking of you)

[Painter]

Thanks Painter. we were never raised with any type of spiritual faith so I don't really have that to rely on. I think it would be nice though..to feel light spititually. Occasionally I can think like that, but it's pretty rare.

I wasn't raised with religion, either. My dad was a very peaceful man, a thinker and wonderer who shared his thoughts with me from when I was quite young, but there was no religion or faith around.

I found a lovely church about 4 years ago - I had been looking at the historic building for years and wanted to go inside it. I went to one service and felt immediately at home. It's a church that attracts people who like tradition, lovely music, and open-mindedness. I eventually joined the choir.

Slowly, I've come to rely on the singing and services and fellowship to support me in my life. It's a choice you make and a habit that you practice, it doesn't just happen, I think.

During the last meeting in Divorce Care, one of the leaders said 'The choices you make today, shapes your character tomorrow.' I feel the choice of attending church (even if my beliefs don't necessarily fit with everything they talk about there) is shaping me and strengthening me. I feel like it puts me back on the track I want to be on and helps me feel better about my life and myself, and it helps me make better choices in general.

If you had asked me 10 years ago, I would never, ever have thought that I would go to church regularly.

You can look up loving-kindness and see what you think about the affirmations/meditations there. They're a little different but I think they could be very helpful in the same way, and they don't require you to go anywhere too early on a Sunday morning.

[JujuB]

Painter,

Interesting that the topic of religion just came up as I could use some advice...

We baptized my son and we were married in a Christian church. I am not religious but I went along with it because I figured if it makes husband and his family (and some of my family) feel more comfortable then why not?

I just found out that my MIL took my son to sunday school this weekend. I was not consulted at all regarding this. I know husband would be happy because it means that he was able to sleep late on a sunday.

My major issue is that this decision is extremely hypocritical!!!!!!!

I also went to a few divorce care meetings and learned that my beliefs regarding marriage are highly in line with Christian values. But for my MIL and husband to do this, When they were so accepting of divorce is LUDICROUS and I will repeat, HYPOCRITICAL.

Now on the other hand, I just fractured my foot and any help I receive from my MIL is also a relief.

Maybe exposing son to many different religions might be a good idea as well? I don't really know.

I know religious topics can be controversial. I am not opposed to religion and I certainly do not look down upon it, I'm just not religious. I also do not love the pastor of mils church as he is very dogmatic. And most of all I despise husband and mils acceptance of divorce.

[JksD]

Ugh, JJB.

What a dilemma. Exposing your s to different religions sound like a good idea but if the doctrines in the church are not what you agree with, it gets iffy.

How would your h react if you take up this issue? Is this a battle worth fighting?

[JujuB]

Thanks jksd,

I actually don't disagree with family values that churchs seem to address. It's the hypocrisy of mil and husband that bothers me. I mean really bothers me.

How do they not see it???? I want it addressed and exposed and validated.

Husband doesn't even go. He's sleeping in and mil takes him. (He sees him 4 days a month and a lot of that time he is not even physically present) I basically share custody with my MIL.

[Painter]

Juju, this is an issue that can be tricky. Your H would have the right to take him to the church of his choice in most places, but if he doesn't even go himself, he can't claim it's his initiative. MIL has no right to do it.

I would be uncomfortable with my child being taken to a church where I didn't like what they preached. On the other hand, you may want to check what they do during the Sunday school, it can be very different from the actual church.

I'm not so surprised at the hypocrisy... I've seen too much of it.

[Zues126]

Suppose our nation is living in a big house with two rooms.

The first room is almost unbearably hot. It is very uncomfortable. People are sweating. People are thirsty. People are continuously distracted and have a hard time taking their minds off the heat. People get irritable, short tempered, and just aren't enjoying themselves.

But the second room isn't completed. It's exposed to the elements, and it's freezing cold outside. Truly freezing. Like a survival situation. People are huddling together to protect themselves from the cold, but it is nothing short of an emergency. Some people are able to find areas out of the wind, and by grouping up and burning newspapers there are a number that survive. But unfortunately there are a number that don't.

Well, word gets around, and before long, the first room is the place to be. Even though it's hot, at least you can survive. Some people get so hot they look to the other room and it can be appealing at times because cool air sounds like a break, but they all know people that have frozen to death, and they know better. Soon society starts adapting attitudes and sayings about handling the heat, and eventually it becomes indoctrinated into religion, family values, and social outlook. "Deal with the heat, don't freeze in the cold!"

Then one day construction on the second room is finished. It is no longer freezing cold. In fact, it is pretty nice and cool. People are no longer dying. They are actually thriving. It might be a bit cool, and people have pangs of longing for a few moments of warmth, but they see all the people in the hot room still so uncomfortable and miserable and they say "no thanks, I'd rather just be chill".

People are hesitant to move to the cool room. They've heard all the horror stories about things that happened in the past. But inevitably, as people send messages back from the cool room, it gets around that these days people are doing quite well there.

That's when the migration begins. More and more people say 'enough of the heat' and move to the cool room. It becomes a destination of choice. And as the masses start going that way, the culture changes. The warnings of the cool room are forgotten, society no longer blames people for going that route, even religion says things like "I know we said the warm room was holy, but if you need to cool down, we get it...just don't leave our church, because there'd be no church left with just the warm roomers!"

Marriage is obviously the hot room, and being single or dating new people is the cool room. For many years people needed marriage for survival. It wasn't out of love. It wasn't out of romance. It wasn't to achieve some transcendent relationship between two mature adults that overcame their destructive tendencies through mutual growth and formed some mutually satisfying Utopian co-existence. No, they stuck together because there were millions of families immigrating to the US that didn't speak English, didn't understand the world around them, had no phones or internet and struggled to adapt to the customs, and so they kept their families together and worked long and hard to try to find a way to keep a roof over their heads. Even though things were difficult, they were better than where they came from (in most cases), and they had hope for a brighter future for their children. But they absolutely had to keep clumped together to have a shot of survival.

After WWII the economy improved. As did technology. Communication. Social progress, equal rights. And as women entered the work force in higher numbers and at increasing pay, suddently people didn't need to pair up to survive. They could do it on their own.

In the 60s, people looked around at the world and said 'why are we all doing it this way? This is stupid!' Because it was, now that the great depression, wars, and industrial revolution was behind us. It didn't make sense to remain in difficult and uncomfortable situations when you could just hitchhike across the country smoking joints with strangers and celebrating free love.

My parents were of this generation. My dad and mom were hippies. My dad has been divorced three times, my mom divorced twice. I have half brothers and sisters all over the country. The traditions have broken down, they don't serve us anymore. Everyone has their own life, and they get to choose to do whatever they want with it. Whatever brings happiness. And if at any point they have the option of restructuring their life to avoid discomfort or step up their lifestyle, hey, this is America, and that's what we do.

So why do people leave marriages? When you look at an individual, it is easy to point fingers and lay blame. Poor values, lack of commitment, immaturity, family of origin, etc. But when you look at the macro level, is it really any wonder that people are going to gravitate to the room where it is more comfortable? Cultural opinion, laws, religions, values, none of these things lead our people...they SERVE our people. And as our society decides it wants something different, they evolve, just like popular usage adds slang to the dictionary. You can't expect the world to continue to live uncomfortably when comfort is available, any more than you can expect water not to flow downhill.

In my mind I have always viewed XW as a murderer. She killed my wife and destroyed my family. But at the same time, she is also just one of millions of people that decided they wanted to be more comfortable. Everyone is doing it, and it's even considered ok these days.

I don't agree with this direction. I think something profoundly important has been lost. But I am just one voice. And it's clear that the majority is against me. Who am I to cast blame at the others, just because they don't agree with me? If the majority wants to allow breaking up marriages and normalize broken families and affairs, well, I don't have to agree, but I can't change that. And if I could, they would be equally upset that they feel pressured to remain in oppressive marriages that deny them the opportunity to pursue their happiness and be their 'best selves'.

Bottom line J, I feel what has happened in our culture is unavoidable. That marriage is so difficult, the only way it could work is if divorce was prohibitively worse. And for good or bad, those days are over. There may be people like you and me out there, but we are like the Amish, the rest of the world thinks we're goofy for denying ourselves the comforts of the modern world.

The rest of the world isn't hypocritical, they are just redefining our values. XW and society will probably never change their opinions or feelings on this. And looking at it from that angle, much of my anger has gone out of me. I get the migration. I get the decisions. I don't agree, I don't like it, and I never will. But I have let much of it go.

The hell of it is, I like the cool room. I never would've chose to be here, but it is more laid back. I don't have to deal with the bs and hurt and rejection and neglect and disrespect I did in my marriage. And I'm not alone, most survivors testify that their marriages were terrible and they are happier now. I still believe it could've been worked out for the better, but that's not in the cards these days.

Do I want to partner with anyone that follows these new beliefs? No.

Do people exist that feel the way we do? Absolutely.

Do I want to try to date and find one? I'm not sure. Odds are that the next relationship will fail, or at best will be miserable. Because I, too, am part of this entitled and high expectation culture. If best case scenario is that I end up stuck in a miserable unfulfilling marriage, and worst case is that my future partner abandons me because they aren't willing to...why would I ever want to run that again?

Bottom line J, your H isn't a bad guy or a hypocrite. He's just an average US citizen. This is the new normal. And as for future R's, I think they're mostly doomed, so it's your call if you want to partner up for a while and enjoy 1-2 years of butterflies during the honeymoon phase and some hope that you're involved in something more endurable, or if you want to sit it out and avoid the whole mess.

I hesitate to post because this seems really cynical and I don't want to discourage newbies from standing by their M. They should. It's what I believe is the right thing to do. And many people are able to save their marriages, and all walk away stronger and able to sleep at night. There are many posters on these forums that saved their M. M is still possible.

I am only sharing my personal thoughts about how it got where it is, and how I'm processing the loss of what I had, what we all had as a society, and what I won't have in the future because I have taken the red pill and see how it works and that no path leads to the permanent marriage I had wanted in this life.

But it's also possible I'm dead wrong, and that these happy mature fulfilled new age marriages do exist, and that if we just do our part to become our best selves and screen like crazy to find someone that won't leave us, maybe that is possible. Shoot, there are people married, so it isn't impossible. It just looks that way to me now. But that can change.

We'll see J, the future is unknown. I am just doing my thing one day at a time and going with the flow. Hang in and do the same.

[Painter]

Zues in good form... Love your writings!

[JujuB]

I like this too. And it's a big fear of mine... that anyone I partner with will eventually leave because marriage is not easy and I am not perfect and Bexcuse people get bored of the mundane.

But zues, no one would describe my parents as enlightened, spiritual types. They annoy each other,and disagree with each other. But they also travel together, spend time together, accept each other for their eccentricities (to put it nicely) discuss politics, watch TV together etc. Etc. Etc. They truly do respect and love eqch other. They have been married for over 40 years. No affairs or breakups. I really don't know how one will survive when one of them dies.

I am going to reread you post though amd respond more. I just wanted to quickly let you know this. That it can be done.

[JujuB]

I stayed in that hot room because for me (without infidelity) there is never a reason for elective death of a family. To me that was more important then anything and I always thought it would be possible to change things. My husband was my family, and I never once thought of "disowning" him, just like I never would do that to a family member.

I come from a very close family. No one in my family (extended included) has been divorced. It is accepted and the norm that things aren't perfect, especially after small kids but you get through it. For me divorce is not the norm and the idea of it is really disturbing and hurts a lot.

I complained a lot while in that hot room though because I was so unhappy. I think my husband interpreted my complaints as personal criticisms instead of ways to communicate and make things better (which was always my intention). He in response withdrew and did not communicate anything to me, which made me "complain" even more. This went on for years. In the end he was really really cruel. I will never forgive him for the way he left.

I don't like the cold room. I like the hot despite the discomfort because I like family and stability over independence and temporary romantic feelings. So yeah, my goal is to meet someone to have a family unit with. And yes I recognize how difficult that will be when it's hard to predict.

[Ginger1]

I'm going to get a tad deep here. So we stay in that hot room because we believe in family and commitment (I am a firm believer) I did pretty much what you did, Juju. I sucked it up for so many years, I got to trying to work with me, shot down multiple times, so I became defensive, angry, and exhausted. he didn't like that "me" so he left. I didn't like that me either. Because it wasn't me. But I couldn't just take what I took for so long, much like you did, without it leaking out somewhere.

The issue is, it does take two to make it work. Else one sits in misery until they blow up. There can be major issues, small issues, but there needs to a willingness for both to work it out.

So, I do hope one day I find a partner, too, who no matter what, even when things go off the rails, they make an effort to get back on. I never ever run away from a challenge.

Oh, in the end, I probably would have stuck out our one sided marriage if he didn't leave first. But if it had negative effects on our child that would be much more negative in the long run than divorce, if he wasn't willing to do anything about it, I might have left. Which I don't think lowers my values and makes me one of society where they say "divorce is OK because I am not happy"

Because I would have probably lived in misery unless it hurt my child.

[Painter]

Ginger, I think it's fairly easy to decide if someone put a lot of effort into saving their M before they gave up.

Did they ask their spouse for conversations? Did they bring up their complaints in a calm and non-blaming manner? Did they go to IC to help them figure out if their expectations were reasonable? Did they ask their S to go to MC? Did they take classes, attend weekend seminars, keep asking their S to go to counseling?

I did this for years. I finally told WH some years ago that I was worried about the future of our R if we didn't get help to communicate. He has later told me that it was at that moment, when I 'threatened D', as he calls it, that he started to withdraw.

He eventually got into an A and now lives with his mistress. I'm pretty sure that the pattern will repeat, I was not his first round on that carousel.

I'm working hard to avoid repeating any of the patterns that I saw were destructive in that M, and find out where they originate from.

[Painter]

Oh, and that was in reply to your sentence about leaving... which was a small part of your post but just stood out to me.

I'm also happier now in many, many ways. I feel free to be myself.

[Ginger1]

That's the irony of it all, painter. I did a lot of that stuff, but to the capacity that a 20 something year old knows how. Let's be real, we don't have all the tools at such a young age, they are developed over time. My huge fault was marrying someone who I knew wasn't capable of listening or caring if my needs weren't being met at the time. Part of me had hoped he would grow into that.

I may have left or wanted to leave if he didn't first. EVERYONE was shocked it was him leaving, not me because of the way he was.

I know, much like you, I am much happier than I would have been if the marriage continued but he hadn't changed. I am free to be myself also, something I was not at all able to be in my M.

I'm just speaking to honoring vows and commitment. I believe their are more ways to dishonor a commitment to marriage than by simply cheating. But I won't get into that!

[JujuB]

The problem is its a matter of interpretation. My husband will swear on a stack of bibles that he tried for years. I dont feel like he did. Not at all.

I was not the best person, but my behaviors did not warrant divorce. He was not the best partner. But I would have never left him based on his behaviors (i only would have left him if he cheated).

My husband never gave us a chance. We were living with my family. To really work on a marriage that was falling apart , we needed to leave my families home for privacy. Husband refused because it put him in a great financial position to walk away without obligation. He really took advantage of my parents and I want him to pay...but he will not have to.
My parents certainly will not make us leave, but even if i worked full time, i cannot afford the area and I am stuck here unless hubby leaves.

He could not do better, the SOB. I wish he would freeze his ass off, but He is not in a cold room. He is in a paradise, with no responsibilities. Guilt free, because all his friends are divorced and he blames it on me.

I am so mad. I have been so mad. Hopefully once we are through with the legal process, I will not be mad anymore. I feel like he gets away so easy financially and logistically. I love my son more then anything and I am so grateful that husband does not want 50/50 or has a right to it anymore. But it is not easy to work full time, and have a child basically full time, and live in the most expensive area of the country.

He comes across so friggen clean cut. You would never know the truth if you met him and that enrages me as well.

[JujuB]

So for a lot of the WAS, it is not really a cold room. They get to be irresponsible and we kid ourselves by saying that they are the ones that are losing out. That's just our desire for fairy tale endings. The world is full of inequities and unfairness. Usually its the ones that are nicer, etc. that get f'd. and thats all this was. My husband was more ruthless.

My husband is convinced he did what was for the best. He has no guilt. My husband also thinks he is a great dad. That he is out there providing for his son....he told the mediator that he is giving me way too much in child support..17% and i should be able to take out of that and save for college. (His child support check would not even cover half of the rent for a 2 bedroom apartment here)

Sorry for rants today....I just talked to my lawyer and im mad.

[doodler]

...and im mad.

I'm there with you sister; I'm having toilet paper printed with my XW's face on every sheet.

[JujuB]

Omg! That would be a great business to go into. I love it! (It would be a greater political seller too)

[JujuB]

Hey here's a distorted consolation...

I used to hate reading posts from the really nice guys whose wives are treating them horrifically. Especially the guys that are supporting their wives and kids, despite the fact that their wives are cheating, lying, and neglecting the children. And there are so many tales of this. So the odds are pretty good that the next woman my husband ends up with will be a cheater. (It will be very difficult for my husband to find someone as loyal as I was, despite my other flaws)

I'm so bitter. I have to stop or one day I will get kicked off of these forums.

[JksD]

((Jjb))

If I ever get karma's private hotline, I promise I will share it with you.

[Ginger1]

I understand your pain and anger. I still feel it. My ex is living his dream life. That's great for him. He went out and got exactly what he wanted. I was angry for while about that. Then I just realized focusing on that made my life more miserable. You'll get there when you get there.

My ex also thinks he's super dad. He's not. But I let him believe what he wants. He's content with his very part time parenting and feels he's doing the best he can, then so be it. has karma hit my ex at all yet? Nope. I'm afraid it's going to come when my daughter realizes he isn't father of the year..... and she's realizing it.... and it will be sad when she gets older, but for her.

I am convinced my ex didn't love me, a friend says otherwise. What I think my ex loved was my loyalty. I am loyal as loyal can be, just like you. There are actually people out there who value the loyalty and appreciate it.

I did not know men cared about marriages until I came to these boards. I often feel sad an angry to see committed men who are walked all over by their wives. before I came here I actually thought guys couldn't give a crap if the woman stayed or left. Only women cared, I thought. I am actually so relieved to see there are men who care about their marriages. All hope is not lost.

Hang in there. Let it out, no one will kick you off the boards:)

[JujuB]

Sometimes I wonder if I am a covert narcissist. I recognize I am mad at husband for daring to leave me...he had every right I guess.

Ginger, I am pretty sure husband liked me for superficial stuff. Like, I looked good on paper. Why not marry. It had been 7 years and no real reason to separate.

You voiced my feelings regarding men and relationships. I was and am kind of coming out of that belief that men want tons of space, and they want to avoid marriage and relationships at all costs. That women are the ones that force that type of arrangement on men and they get "suckered in". The guy I am dating really seems to want all the relationship stuff more then anything else. I think maybe he was lonely. It throws me off because I keep thinking "he's only like this because it's the beginning. He will be similar to my husband".

[JujuB]

I just read crw's thread regarding relationship while divorcing and couldn't help comparing.

So My husband left me and we have been physically separated for over a year. But the divorce proceedings are only just starting. I started dating someone and we are moving on a very slow scale. We actually met a few times in the past post BD through mutual friends and had nice conversation but because of my situation I never thought much about it. He has no kids and has never been married. I will not have him meet my son, unless we are together for a year.

I let him initiate and despite him doing everything right, I have little faith or trust in him. I am mentally prepared to end things on a drop. We didn't talk for 2 days and I was envisioning this scenario in which he stone walled me for a few weeks and what I would say to break things off. He is honest, he shares his vulnerabilities with me, he puts effort into things, he wants to get to know me, he tells me I have everything going for me and makes jokes that I am settling for him, he references us (son included) in future scenarios. I like him but in my mind, I think he will turn into my husband and I am constantly (secretly) looking for those signs.

I worry that because he has not been married and has no children that he has no idea of what type of sacrifice an enduring relationship requires. I don't want to be attached and then have him realize after the initial attraction wears off that, "hey dealing with a kid is a major responsibility and I just need to bail". Because essentially, that's what my husband did.

My family feels like I should date other men first. (They have not met him) that I should not commit. But I enjoy his jokes and conversation and the distraction, and of course I wouldn't be dating him if I didn't see potential for long term. But there are red flags too...namely his inexperience.

[doodler]

You're scared and you want to run, but you like him and you want to stay. It's that approach-avoidance thing. I had similar issues and my doctor recommended a lobotomy, but the insurance company wouldn't pay for it. My recommendation is to take two aspirin and watch the movie "50 First Dates."

[JujuB]

Hahaha. Romantic comedies are the perfect, cost efficient substitute for a lobotomy. Great suggestion.

[Zues126]

I worry that because he has not been married and has no children that he has no idea of what type of sacrifice an enduring relationship requires. I don't want to be attached and then have him realize after the initial attraction wears off that, "hey dealing with a kid is a major responsibility and I just need to bail". Because essentially, that's what my husband did.

I get that J. Trust me.

The one thing that stands out with your posts is this concept about how relationships with kids require sacrifice. We've talked about it before. I know because in my relationship I felt completely neglected to the level that if I had been a dog the animal rights groups would have found me a new home. So my fear is that my future partner doesn't know the type of effort it takes not to let me be sacrificed!

So what, specifically, are you thinking you won't be able to do for your new man? Do you want mental permission to go a year at a time without sex if you are overwhelmed with life? Do you want him to know that you won't be able to spend much time with him in the evenings? Are you thinking he'll get frustrated because you can't go out to the bar at night with you on weeknights? Where, SPECIFICALLY, is it that you think he's going to feel fed up?

I also fear that a partner might lack the commitment it takes, that piece is universal. But what I feel threatens the commitment is the opposite. I can't imagine a woman truly validating and remaining accommodating of sexual needs specifically. In other words, I'm afraid of BEING sacrificed. And that hurt me enough in my M I may never talk to a woman again (DB forums aside). I fear that things will start off fine, but then she'll be repulsed, or diminish those needs as 'just sex' because it isn't crushing HER soul to go without, and consider it something I need to understand must be 'sacrificed' for the kids, career, life, and everything and anything else.

So I really do wonder what it is you need your partner to be able to sacrifice, and why you feel you are unable to provide what your partner will need from you?

My only other question is whether you think he'll change, or you will? If you can't go out to the bars now, wouldn't he understand the lifestyle of what it takes to be with someone with a kid? Do you think HE will change and want more? Or do you think you are needy now and willing to do anything to feel better, but when you are feeling better YOU won't want to have to put so much into it?

I'm not being critical at all J. Just trying to talk real. Some of this is embarrassing for me to talk about, but if you can't be real with an online community that you'll never meet face to face that cares about you, when can you?

Hang in and keep posting.

[JujuB]

Good questions, sorry this will require some sorting out and continued resentful venting.

I feel like for a marriage to work, especially one with children there has to be a sacrifice of each partner's independence. Decisions, and actions have to be chosen based on what's good for the team, not for the individual. They have to be communicated.

In my marriage everything was separate. And I think that was the underlying issue for me. We had separate accounts and I did not even know what my husband's take home pay was until I filed for child support...he would not tell me. I had no knowledge of his savings and everytime I asked, there was a huge argument. He did what he wanted regardless of my opinions or my input. He was never around and when he was he was sleeping. I ended up doing the same and that is the recipe for a bad marriage......

[JujuB]

So basically my husband, like many bachelors, liked being able to sleep late, liked being able to spend his money on anything, liked having no demands put on him.

When there is a child, there are demands. One cannot sleep late. One cannot spend like they once were able to. Children's toys everywhere. Family vacation to Sesame Street place instead of seasons football tickets and tail gating every other weekend. A wife that no longer dresses up and physically looks and acts like she once did. Instead she's a mom.

So why would a single guy electively choose that life when it's not even his kid?

[JujuB]

Now if I was to remarry, I would not have expectations that the new husband would have to support and take care of my child. That would not be fair to him. But that lifestyle that comes with having a child is not easy and not for everyone. Regardless. I don't even know how to navigate something like that. I haven't thought that far in advance, but how can it not be difficult?

But why be with me when I cannot offer that honeymoon period of travel and dating and irresponsibility? Right now, this guys adores me because of the superficial stuff which is unsustaining. I worry that after a certain amount of time, i lose my appeal and become mundane and am valued less, which is what happened with husband. Real life is not fun. So what's in it for him if it's not his kid, And the lifestyle itself is not appealing? What keeps someone around? Will love and committment exist for me? My fear comes from no longer having trust that ones partner will be as committed as I am.

I do fear growing attachéd to someone only having to grieve or be rejected by them. I don't necessarily feel needy.

I don't worry about sex, because I like sex, and my experience (and that of many of my friends and women that I talk to) is one in which the husband was unable to. In fact, it's a big motivator for me in wanting a relationship with someone. Because I'm incapable of emotionless sex or one night stands.

[JujuB]

So I guess the real answer is that I fear deep down that I'm not actually worth that sacrifice someone would have to make.

[JksD]

Jjb, I hear you.

(((Jjb)))

[JksD]

Jjb, I have a colleage who's D with 2 kids. Her H cheated on her when she was pregnant with the 2nd kid, and he even took the ow back into the house when she was still in the house with her kids.

She has been dating a single, never-married guy for at least a year and she's gone on vacations with him and the kids. Their relationship seems pretty stable.

So there are guys like that.

Just don't fight me for them.

[Ginger1]

Juju,

Working on your worthiness before entering a relationship I think is a must. Or really give it some effort while working on the relationship. I understand where you are coming from. I felt if I wasn't worth it for my ex to stay right after having our hard-fought for child, I must not be worth anything.

I share the same exact fears as you regarding sacrifice.

I have realized that to the right guy you and your child won't seem like so much of a sacrifice. It's in the perception. Being with you and your son through the good and the bad may seem like a dream to him, seriously! it may be what he wants in life. A family.

I do think we sacrifice when we have kids, but I view it more as a trade-off in some areas. Life may change, but people welcome that change.

To speak to what Zues said, I do agree. Sex does not have to go away. Date nights might not be as often, but they do not have to go away. There may be just as much joy in going apple picking with you and your kid as there is hanging out at the bar. I realize that with the right guy, that's the way life would be. it is realistic. I know a good deal of guys who are like that.

And Zues, there are women with a very good sexual appetite. Yes, our sex drive is fueled differently than men's most often. But it isn't a chore to all of us;)

[Zues126]

Hey juju. Thanks for speaking up on the other thread. Don't take the backlash to heart. I appreciate what you said and understand where you were coming from. As for me, I won't post on that thread again myself. Not as a punishment because but simply because it's clear that poster and I won't have anything constructive to accomplish. He won't appreciate what I have to say, and I don't need more drama in my life either. I've learned through this process there will be people that appreciate me and people that don't, I'm not here to change that, just sort through and spend time where it makes sense.

So basically my husband, like many bachelors, liked being able to sleep late, liked being able to spend his money on anything, liked having no demands put on him.

When there is a child, there are demands. One cannot sleep late. One cannot spend like they once were able to. Children's toys everywhere. Family vacation to Sesame Street place instead of seasons football tickets and tail gating every other weekend. A wife that no longer dresses up and physically looks and acts like she once did. Instead she's a mom.

So why would a single guy electively choose that life when it's not even his kid?

I hear this J. But can't you also say that when you're in a relationship, there are also demands? Demands that you make your partner a priority and don't let them get backburnered behind the stress and day to day tasks that life throws at us?

Much of the budget must go towards securing the family, but can't there be some set aside for some splurging on occasion? Most days demand rising at the crack of dawn, but can't there be a weekend here and there where one can lounge around? Kids must be engaged and entertained, but can't there be some adult trips where the kids can be left with a family member? Appearance can be practical most days, but can't there be some date nights with mature outfits both for out of the home and back at home?

It seems logical that there is a balance needed. It's not an all or nothing. So what I've been trying to figure out is whether you feel it was your WAH that couldn't reach that balance and wouldn't budge an inch, or whether it was you that was out of balance and upset that he had expectations and demands either of you or for his own space. Or was it a combination that started to slip, and then turned into a freefall as you both fought for what you needed and resented the other for not meeting in the middle?

My best friend is going through that. He, like me, is a champion pool player. He is one of the most talented players in the country, who's life dream was to train and compete, and who has just a few years left before he's past his prime. His dream life would be to wake up, go to the gym and work out, then practice pool, then compete on the weekends in major events, trying to win a major tournament before it's too late.

His wife, on the other hand, doesn't understand why pool is so important to him. She is a marriage therapist so knows 'in her head' that it is important to him, and tries to respect that...but she wants him working full time to provide for the family, then with the kids in the evenings, and with her on the weekends.

They have gotten into serious jams because of this clash. My friend is committed to his marriage and won't walk or kill himself, but he has reached the point at times where he wishes he could just head out with his car and pool cue, or where he feels so trapped he wants to end it if it weren't for the children he would leave behind.

They are now in counseling, and one thing they are working on is a fixed schedule, clearly outlining his budget for how much time he can invest into pool and competition, and how much time he is willing to commit to the family. He is willing to work full time, be the family dad at night, and be with her on most weekends...in exchange, she is willing to accept that he'll be practicing 1 night a week, part of 1 day per weekend, and 1 weekend per month where he'll be out doing his own thing.

At first he felt this was rather restrictive. He believes she should just 'understand what he needs', 'feel what he feels', and just support him. He thinks things should just work out 'organically'. I was a big believer in the schedule.

See, without the schedule, things are murky. Both people can fear that their needs will be diminished, neglected, and forgotten. When a week or two go by where their needs are pushed into the background, it's easy to start feeling resentful, or extrapolating how things are getting worse, or how you can't live like this forever, etc.

But with a schedule he can handle making some sacrifices and missing a big tournament one weekend knowing that he has a trip out of state coming up with me in a few weeks. And she can rest easy while he's out of town knowing that he'll be back Monday and will be there for her for the count.

For me, personally, I would have LOVED something like this in some areas of my marriage. My XW was very opposed to sex being scheduled or negotiated, she was of the opinion that it should happen 'organically', that it shouldn't be a 'chore', and that there was something wrong with me if I wanted that from her if she wasn't in the mood to give it. But to me love is an act, not a feeling, and I DID need her, and it would've meant a lot for her to meet my needs despite how she felt, rather than neglecting me and making me responsible for her lack of actions by blaming her resentment on me. In turn I know I neither handled that well, carrying my own resentment and letting my obligations to the family slide as well.

So, with that all said...do you think you'd be able to find a middle ground and remain committed to making your own sacrifices to putting a relationship as the top spot in your life while you balance that with your commitments to your family? If you do, I don't see why any man would have an issue doing the same (although it might be difficult to negotiate at times). It's when the relationship becomes the shock absorbers for life and takes the brunt of the sacrifice that the love account goes into the red.

[Vanilla]

Ju

Be careful of Judgement. Men are this, women are like that.

We are all different and many of us loving.

You aren't the same as you were with WH formerly referred to as jackass, (now referred to as Jackass).

Accepting loving and care from those who are great and give it freely. And your child is part of the package of love. So it is, not entitlement positive or negative. How might you deny a future loving partner the opportunity to extend that to you.

Let go of positive and negative expectations.

Just please

V

[JujuB]

So what, specifically, are you thinking you won't be able to do for your new man? Do you want mental permission to go a year at a time without sex if you are overwhelmed with life? Do you want him to know that you won't be able to spend much time with him in the evenings? Are you thinking he'll get frustrated because you can't go out to the bar at night with you on weeknights? Where, SPECIFICALLY, is it that you think he's going to feel fed up?

So I really do wonder what it is you need your partner to be able to sacrifice, and why you feel you are unable to provide what your partner will need from you?

My only other question is whether you think he'll change, or you will? If you can't go out to the bars now, wouldn't he understand the lifestyle of what it takes to be with someone with a kid? Do you think HE will change and want more? Or do you think you are needy now and willing to do anything to feel better, but when you are feeling better YOU won't want to have to put so much into it?

.

Just to add...Specifically, I worry about the uncontrollable changes that come up in life. I will age, there will be younger, beautiful women out there. I can get sick or injured. I will not be as desirable as time goes on and Sex is no longer as exciting as it was in the beginning. New Husband might decide he does not want to sacrifice monogamy. So yes I worry about my changes causing him to change and perhaps wanting more. And I worry about how these changes contribute to impermanence of a marriage or infidelity. In my fantasy, marriage withstood change. But it really doesn't.

JellyB recently posted on your thread about the ability to accept that things change. I know that's a part of buddhism and spirituality. And perhaps the key to peaceful thinking. But for me it's hard, because I view change as great loss.

It's funny, because my husband had changed for the worse and I never would have left him or been unfaithful to him, but I'm not sure if I will find a partner like me in that aspect.

[JujuB]

Ginger,yes... It definatly comes down to working on my worthiness. That I would be worthy of love regardless of getting older/ losing a job/ getting sick or unattractive, etc...and that's hard to work on. It's funny how things circle. When I first came on these forums under my old name, another poster had discussed with me the concept of core beliefs...which I think is as simple as basic, healthy self esteem. Discovering who I am at the core, which is really an unknown without all the experiences of life no?

Vanilla, thank you... Having no expectations from someone and just accepting them for what they offer in the present has actually been working. My negative fears do frequently pop up though. The good thing is that this time around, I keep them to myself and to you guys! And no I'm not the same, thank god. I was not a cool wife at all. For so many reasons!

[doodler]

Just to add...Specifically, I worry about the uncontrollable changes that come up in life. I will age, there will be younger, beautiful women out there. I can get sick or injured. I will not be as desirable as time goes on and Sex is no longer as exciting as it was in the beginning. New Husband might decide he does not want to sacrifice monogamy. So yes I worry about my changes causing him to change and perhaps wanting more. And I worry about how these changes contribute to impermanence of a marriage or infidelity. In my fantasy, marriage withstood change. But it really doesn't.

JujuB,

I'v got two points to make. First, some of the things you're worrying about you can't really control. You could die in a car accident tomorrow, but worrying about that today is a useless exercise. Second, it's possible to get better as you age. When I was 51 I ran an ultramarathon. I ran the full distance, I never walked, and I finished with a very good time. I couldn't have done that when I was younger. We old folks can kick @ss, it's just that most of us choose to be old.

[SBJ]

So doodler, you're saying that there are 2 types of people...those that accept getting older and make themselves better thru growth, and those that fear it and regress into MLC.

I agree that we should all grow in a positive direction, but I also see where JujuB is nervous. Once we have been burned it is hard to have faith in others. But JujuB, you must also realize that the world is also filled with kind, quality, faithful people like yourself that you will one day meet and be able to create a life with.

I think that the theme of these forums is that of positive self image, positive self worth, and understanding that the only person in this world that we can control is our own self.

[doodler]

So doodler, you're saying that there are 2 types of people...those that accept getting older and make themselves better thru growth, and those that fear it and regress into MLC.

No, I'm not saying there are two kinds of people. I'm just saying that I suspect a lot of people have expectations of themselves, at given age, to be something that they don't have to be. You know, that Satchel Paige question, "How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"

[SBJ]

I guess I missed that quote, but I like it. I was just trying to follow you. It seems that the MLC'er sees them selves as aging too fast and having to try and play catch-up on things that they "think" they missed out on.

Then there are others like yourself, that hit a certain age and then realized they still had alot of potential to reach certain pinnacles. I like this approach better. I feel that we were getting better with age, but my MLC/WAW feels that there is too much missing or not ever achievable in our M. Like she is chasing this fantasy. Maybe she will find it w/o me, but maybe she will one day realize that our M was just as awesome as I thought it was.

By the way, I have some triathlons on my bucket list, but I'm not sure about those ultra-marathons...I hear you guys are crazy...haha!

[doodler]

SBJ,

I haven't thought a lot about aging, but I think attitude makes a lot of difference. If you think, "I'm too old to do that," then that's the end of that, you're right, you're too old. But, if you say, "I think I can do that," then maybe you can do that. I think allowing chronological age to dictate what we can and can't do is a poor approach to living.

[SBJ]

I totally agree...my issue with my W is that same argument. She stated to a friend that she had to get out of our M because she is 43 and doesn't have much time left. WTF. As I said I felt that things were getting better with age, but then again age is just a number, it doesn't define who you are.

[doodler]

I totally agree...my issue with my W is that same argument. She stated to a friend that she had to get out of our M because she is 43 and doesn't have much time left. WTF. As I said I felt that things were getting better with age, but then again age is just a number, it doesn't define who you are.

SBJ,

There's your 180. Agree with her and tell her she is looking a bit haggardly so it's probably time for you to make a change.

(Just kidding, please don't do that. )