confused and paralyzed

[Coconut]

Jo88, I think you got great advice from darkness and BluWave on how to handle the R piece. Also, JimKao has given some great advice on 180's, I really hope you followed the "don't think about it, just stop drinking" advice. It will make a huge difference in your life, and if you drink enough that you can't just stop, then look into attending AA.

As far as my comment about writing the letter, if you open up to your H about that stuff, then a letter is probably not needed, my W doesn't open up about that stuff, but I'd like to hear it so that's why I mentioned a letter.

[Jo88]

Thank you Blu, darkness and Jim for your valuable feedback and words of encouragement.

[BluWave]

Jo,

I know every sitch is different, but I am thinking about the things my H has done well in the last year what has helped me find forgiveness. We have been piecing for 14 months, and I, like your H, have also questioned it or felt hopeless at times. My H also had an A for an extended period of time and 100% regrets all of it. This is still a painful reality for him.

The more time goes on, the more he sees what a terrible mistake it was and that it had nothing to do with OW and everything to do with HIM. She was only a distraction from working on himself and the M and it grew from a deep-seeded insecurity and fear of standing up for himself. ... I think you can only know why this happened by giving yourself time and doing a lot of soul-searching. I think H can learn to trust you if he sees that you want to make these changes for you and not just to prove a point to him.

Here are the things that stand out in my mind in my sitch. Perhaps some of these might apply to you as well?

1. Obviously he cut all ties with OW and offers complete transparency.
2. He has truly worked on himself and makes continual efforts to change in ways that better himself and the M. He sees his IC every week, he has read books, and is committed to recovering from being a Nice Guy (his issue) even when it is difficult for him to do. He is able to stand up to me now and this is imperative for him so he does not build resentment.
3. He has taken full responsibility for his choices and actions. He does not make excuses even tho we both know that OW pursued and manipulated to get her way. Even tho this has come to light, he is fully accountable for his mistakes.
4. He has been patient with me and the process, as this has been a roller coaster of emotions. He is committed to giving this as much time as it will take, knowing that I could give up at any moment. I know I have been difficult & irrational at times, but he understands the trauma this has caused me and he is committed to having patience and understanding from my perspective.
5. Lastly, he genuinely wants our M and our family intact. The more time goes on, the more he can see clearly that the A was the biggest mistake of his life, he is disgusted at her (and himself), and he is grateful that I am willing to work through this. Sadly, the more time goes on, the more he also can see the consequences of his actions more clearly and how many people he hurt. This is something he is dealing with and might be for some time.

So I am not suggesting that you are similar to my H, but I can say that knowing all of the above, and seeing it every day, has made it very hard for me to give up on him! And I have been so close to giving up many times! He is staying the course and showing consistency in his actions over time. Perhaps your H just needs to know that how he feels now is completely normal, but he owes it to himself to take more time to heal. It has only been 14 months for me, but I have come leaps and bounds from where I was when he first came back.

-Blu

[Jo88]

Blu, I know our sitch is different and I don't know your full story, but what you wrote leaped at me.

The more time goes on, the more he sees what a terrible mistake it was and that it had nothing to do with OW and everything to do with HIM. She was only a distraction from working on himself and the M and it grew from a deep-seeded insecurity and fear of standing up for himself. ...

-Blu

This resonated with me so strongly because I feel the same. I'm not sure what kept me from being introspective for so long, but the more I do some soul-searching, the more I'm beginning to understand that my A had nothing to do with the OM and absolutely everything to do with me and my insecurities and fears.

I've developed behaviors that I now know are rooted in my childhood and brought them into relationship after relationship: acknowledging problems don't exist (for instance, infidelity), always aimed to please my parents so I constantly repressed/denied my true emotions, disregarded my own needs and made everyone else my priority, unhealthy dependence on relationships, fear of being abandoned, fear of disappointing people (hence, lying/dishonesty); low self-esteem (I craved attention, needed approval and recognition), problems setting boundaries. Ugh. I'm no psychologist, but this is textbook co-dependency.

This is what I discovered about myself recently and it's been incredibly painful to admit that I never really delved this deep into myself before. What's even more painful is that because of my ignorance/disregard of it and lack of self-awareness, I made some horrible mistakes along the way that is making my H want to leave the M. At the same time, I'm glad I know now, because this is my challenge: what do I do about it, and how can improve myself?

As far as things I've done since the discovery:
- I have cut off ALL contact with the OM and offered transparency.
- I have taken FULL responsibility for my choices and actions. I constantly apologize and always tell him that I'm 100% accountable for making the decision to cross the line. No matter what problems we had going on in our relationship, this was no excuse.
- Patience has become a necessity. I am 100% committed to giving this the time it needs for us to heal, individually and as a couple. I am constantly keeping in mind to put myself in his shoes - how would I feel and act if he did this to me? Believe me, there have been so many moments when I feel so discouraged and just want to give up, thinking he will never ever forgive me and this is a lost cause. No matter how angry and nasty he gets with me by saying, "I hate you so much, I want you out of my f***ing life", I am learning that I do have a choice: give up or choose to love him, despite hearing those words.
- While we don't have any kids, our families have become close over the years and he treats my nieces and nephew as if they were his kids. Blu, like your H, the more time goes by, the more disgusted I feel with myself for not thinking through my decision to cross the line, and the consequences it will have on EVERYONE in our lives (our parents, siblings, nieces, nephews, friends). Our families don't know what's going on yet, and it would crush me even more if/when they know.

Unlike you, I don't know if my H is willing to work through this anymore. He feels like he's been hurt too many times by me, and the only way for him to move forward is to move on without me. I'm not expecting him to stay - the odds are stacked against me, so I know the challenges that lie ahead and the work that remains to be done. I am grateful for each and every day and moment when he allows me to hug him, hold him, touch him, kiss him. While he may not show it, deep down inside, I know he appreciates it. I took him for granted, and as daunting as it is sometimes, I remain committed to re-establishing trust in me and showing him his worth and significance.

Blu, I dont know your full story, but did he want to leave the M for the OW?

[sandi2]

I'm not sure if writing a letter to him will work as I bring these issues to him in person when we're in bed, or driving to work, or in the house. Maybe I can still give it a shot.

Jo, I suggest you not bring up those issues when you are in bed with him. It could cause him to sleep away from you. I don't know that talking about those issues on the way to work is a great idea, either. I once read how important it is to send our kids off to school with a positive feeling. Well, I've learned it's true for all of us, b/c if we walk into the workplace with all that negative stuff ringing in our ears.......we may not have such a great day at work.

If I could go back in time, one of the first things I would change about myself would be to not talk to my H about something negative, repeatedly. My solution for dealing with my stress was to vent to my H. Well guess what? He was not seeing me in a very pleasant light. In fact, he usually criticized me, or said nothing at all. It seem to grate on him, and maybe it affected his feelings for me, IDK. But b/c it weighed on my mind, I wanted to throw it all out there at him. I called myself being open with him. Whenever I was unhappy about our MR, I would talk & talk & talk. It didn't work. I was pushing him further & further away from me. I also learned that when I wanted to talk about our MR, I would bring up years worth of cr@p that he had already heard. So, why did I think that talking about it again would solve anything?

I constantly apologize and always tell him that I'm 100% accountable for making the decision to cross the line.

Why are you constantly apologizing? Do you feel that forgiveness comes by how many times you apologize, beg, berate yourself, etc.? He has chosen not to forgive at this time. Constantly talking about the issue and telling him how it's your fault, is not going to cause him to feel forgiveness. I am just saying that I believe you could overkill on the apologizing and self-putdowns. He doesn't want to get in the car, bed, or go to the dinner table and think, "Oh, here it comes again". Especially if the two of you are going to MC, he's getting it there, too. Do you see what I mean?

Since he is so angry and wanting to D you, I think you may need to stop initiating conversations about the A or the MR. Your need to want to be accepted and loved, may be playing into how you are responding. If he brings it up and needs questions answered, or needs verbal assurance, then answer it. He has to go through his own stuff and figure out how to deal with it. Right now, he is really mad......so if I were you, I would probably give him some breathing space, and when in bed, the car, or at dinner.... I would not take that opportunity to start discussing the very issue that makes him angry. Maybe focus more on being pleasant and making his time at home and alone with you an enjoyable one. Gently showing him that being with you is worth his time & effort.

It seems you have truly tried to convince your H that you feel a lot of remorse over your actions. You have said and tried to do everything you can, to get his forgiveness. The act of forgiveness is up to him. I don't think we can "earn" forgiveness. We might earn trust in time, but forgiveness is an act of grace, IMHO. Right now, your H is feeling too much pain and anger, and it's difficult for him to extend much grace.......but time can do a lot, if a person really wants to heal.

Maybe you are wanting to punish yourself. Maybe you feel you don't deserve your H, his love, his forgiveness. I think it is important for the WW to not only feel humble, but let her H see that side of her. I also believe it's important to maintain dignity. If you feel that you have done this, then I am suggesting that maybe it's time to get off your knees and start showing your H a lady who is peaceful, with an inner sweetness, and pleasing attitude. You do not have to wear a sackcloth and put ashes on your head. You can even smile at him.

Instead of talking about yourself and/or the A, maybe direct the conversation toward him and things you know he enjoys. Giving him an ego boost once in awhile, and showing you want to hear about him. If he doesn't want to talk, it's okay. It doesn't necessarily mean that's a rejection of you. If his LL is quality time, then just be there with him, and don't get all uncomfortable if there is silence. You probably know about men needing to go into their "cave", especially right after they get home from work. (It's a man thing).

I'm glad Blue is helping you. One of my main mentors was a LBW who was piecing her M back together. She helped me immensely.

[Jo88]

Wow- I never looked at it that way, Sandi. Thank you for that insight... It's just that don't want him to think that this is NOT on my mind, that I'm forgetting/pretending as if it didn't happen and letting it "ride out" as he says I always do with our problems, so that's why I vent a lot to him. I wanted to let him know "Look this is on my mind too and I want you to know how sorry I am for putting us in this position."

One of his frustrations with me was that I wouldn't bring up issues about the A and my problems unless he asked about it. That all he wanted was to just tell him what's on my mind, what I'm feeling, what i'm thinking. I guess there's certainly a limit to this as too much negativity will only breed more negativity, so that was an extremely good point you bring up there... Perhaps when I do have negative thoughts, maybe I can find ways to bring up what I am doing about it instead so it shows that I'm not just venting a problem, but also finding a solution to it.

I will be much more mindful of not discussing the very issue that makes him angry every night before going to bed or in the morning when going to work. During these times, I catch him in silence with tears streaming down his face, and it prompts us to talk about the A and our problems a lot.

With him being less distant lately, we have been able to converse about some things not related to the A or our MR. I continue to do things for him (cook for him, pick up his dry cleaning) and even find things to do together, like garden or go shopping. We are going away this weekend for a wedding, and planned a surprise trip on the way back to a museum dedicated to his hobby (watch collecting), so I hope this will help take our mind off things for a bit.

Thank you again Sandi for this insight! Truly appreciate it.

[BluWave]

In rereading my post and then sandi's, it is helping me to see things from another perspective! It is a delicate balance between not reducing yourself by constantly bringing it up and apologizing, but also being genuinely remorseful and accountable. It must be hard because your confidence is shaken and you are terribly sorry. At the same time you cannot focus on repairing the M if you need to heal, and I think he will respect that; he doesn't want to be with a doormat. So you are both going in circles.

My H knows nothing about DB, but I think he has been doing it naturally for the past year, which is why I haven't walked. He is focusing on himself and making the postive changes he needs to make, but he also stands up to me and creates boundaries for himself. This was an issue for him in our M before. If I bring things up and get upset, he listens, he validates, and he apoligzes. Then he moves on. In the beginning, I would get triggered and rope him into my drama and he would grit his teeth and deal. Now he has been better about drawing boundaries and I consequently have come to respect him more.

While it may seem counterintuitive, I think your H needs to see how serious you are about wanting to change for you and not for him. He will appreciate the changes as more genuine and sustainable. If you take the pressure off of needing to win him back and earn his forgiveness, he may realize he doesn't want to lose you. People are generally attracted to those that are confident and strong.

So I think it's ok to listen, validate, and apologize as much as he needs. However you do not need to reduce yourself by putting up with emotional abuse, him cursing you, telling you he hates you, etc. That is when you stay quiet, don't give him anything to bite, hold your head up high, and draw boundaries for yourself, "I hear that you are angry and upset and I am sorry you feel this way. As you know I regret my actions and what it has done to our M. I am not comfortble right now with what you are saying and need some space. This is going to take a long time, and as you know I need to make some changes for myself. When you treat me this way, it makes it hard to do that."

I am not suggesting that should be your script, but it is about tight rope walking between accountability and sensitivity with finding your own strength and confidence again.

I have watched my H walk this fine line for the last year. I know it's not easy.

Hang in there!

Blu

[Jo88]

Thanks for that bit of insight Blu. Tremendously helpful, and have been keeping it in mind.

It's been awhile since I last posted and some interesting things have happened. The H is still set on wanting to D, and the last couple of MC sessions have taken a turn from trying to resolve our issues and salvaging the M to "uncoupling" and discussing what needs to happen to move forward and prepare for a D. It's making me all so incredibly sad, depressed and angry.

I've been reading the DB book, and I'm finding it helpful so far, and plan to put into action some of my goals, GAL, and doing some 180s (like drinking).

During the sessions, my H brought up how resentful he is that while he was the one who was put in this situation (asking for a D because of my A), it wasn't fair that he also has to go through the motions of getting the process started to get a D. According to him, one of his biggest frustrations with me is that I always rely on him to make decisions and take initiative.

This puts me in an interesting position. Would it be the 180 of a lifetime if I - the one who doesn't agree to a D - were to take the first actions by gathering all the necessary documents, creating a spreadsheet to discuss budget and splitting finances, etc.? We are currently planning to live under the same roof as we cannot afford to get an apartment in addition to paying the mortgage.

I've currently been sleeping in the same bed, and he hugs and holds me in his arms at night. (He says he wants to make the best out of our last days together) Do I volunteer to move myself back into our guest bedroom?

As a WW trying to DB, my mind is constantly in a state of chaos about what I should do/shouldn't do now that D is slowly starting to become a reality and facing the fact that I will be a LBS.

[sandi2]

During the sessions, my H brought up how resentful he is that while he was the one who was put in this situation (asking for a D because of my A), it wasn't fair that he also has to go through the motions of getting the process started to get a D. According to him, one of his biggest frustrations with me is that I always rely on him to make decisions and take initiative.

This sounds more like an excuse, to me. He is the one who wants the divorce, so he's the one who needs to do the leg work to get it.

This puts me in an interesting position. Would it be the 180 of a lifetime if I - the one who doesn't agree to a D - were to take the first actions by gathering all the necessary documents, creating a spreadsheet to discuss budget and splitting finances, etc.? We are currently planning to live under the same roof as we cannot afford to get an apartment in addition to paying the mortgage.

You don't 180 everything, just b/c it's a 180 degree. If it doesn't serve you well, why would you do it? In this case, it would only be a bluff, and I'm not sure you are willing to play that game. He just might call your bluff.

As a WW trying to DB, my mind is constantly in a state of chaos about what I should do/shouldn't do now that D is slowly starting to become a reality and facing the fact that I will be a LBS.

You already are a LBS.

[Coconut]

Jo88, I agree if you don't want a D don't do the work. Even more so, I would not go back to that MC, and would instead recommend seeing if there is a therapist that follows Gottman principles, it's very good therapy for recovering from an A, or of course DB Therapists, but I don't know if they have MC. Just look up Gottman therapy and go to the institute website for therapists in your area.

Sandi2, I know it's not advised to give the WS's reading material, but do you think it would be good for the WW to give the LBH books addressing healing after an affair?