Being there to help v going dark:balance

[Surfer]

As always Sandi. Thank you.

Been out mountain biking with friends today. GAL. 5 hours solid - climbed 2000 ft and came back down. Did want want to go as I was feeling sorry for myself. Getting out with friends, outside the bar scene, really helps.

I will sleep like a baby after a good soak to sort my aching bones! A sleep I have not had for such a log time.....

Take care of you and yours.

[Surfer]

Background: Sandi talks about the WW and WAW and how the LBH should react. Sandy tells me my W is a WW. I can see that. However, whilst there was an EA about 2.5 yrs ago I am fairly confident it stopped and there is not an active EA or PA at present. I am therefore left with a problem as we live apart, she has the D8 & S6. Which I see almost daily as she drops to school.

I have started going dark and GAL. I am happier for not seeing her and genuine anguish is almost gone and my balls are back.

Question: Should I be going totally dark as MWD suggests after the LRT. Or should I just be dark but genial and happy whenever we talk - like talking to a friend not a W or ex?

Thoughts anyone.....?

[Sotto]

Hi Surfer, I often think dim is a 'safe' choice. By dim, I mean not initiating contact and responding briefly and pleasantly to contact she initiates. I don't really think dark is possible where you are coparenting or have ongoing 'business' to resolve.

In any contact, you can always just stick to areas like the kids, business and briefly passing the time of day. That's pretty much been my approach with my XH and I expect to be even darker once our house has sold and everything is concluded......looking forward to that xx

[Surfer]

Thanks Sotto.

Sounds like you want to get rid of him, not attract him back?

[sandi2]

Sandy tells me my W is a WW. I can see that. However, whilst there was an EA about 2.5 yrs ago I am fairly confident it stopped and there is not an active EA or PA at present.

IMHO, a person can be wayward and not necessarily be in an affair. Ending an affair does not mean they are no longer wayward. Waywardness begins in the heart.....and ends in the heart. Although, ending an affair is absolutely required before she has hope of restoring her heart with loving feelings for her H, and also, in ridding her other negative feelings that started the whole process of her waywardness.

I believe one distinct difference in a WAW and the wayward is that the WW is not interested and won't cooperate in reconciling the MR........no matter what the LBH tries to do to IMPROVE HIMSELF. The WAW is usually hurt and leaves the M due to specific circumstances. If the H corrects or changes those particular problems.......the WAW is more likely (but certainly not always) to consider reconciliation, than the W who is wayward. I say this b/c a WAW usually has a legitimate reason for removing herself, and her children, from the H. And as much as the WW blames on the H.........and even if he may need to make improvements.........she really has no legitimate reason to leave. In other words, it's not him........it's her. Regardless of the petty excuses she may give, her reason is that she's not happy. I believe other distinct differences in the wayward and the WAW, is that the WW plays games; manipulates her H; stoops to any number of levels to get what she wants; tries to cake eat all the time; and will even leave her children.... or put herself over their needs to get her selfish desires filled.

I believe the three areas that are found in waywards are resentment (refusing to forgive and/or letting go of the past; unmet expectations; unfulfilled emotional needs; etc.), disrespect (shown in the tone of voice and volume; put-downs; eye-rolling and other facial & body language; making fun of the S in front of others; not showing respect for the S in front of the children and/or others; lying; deceiving; and many other ways) and rebellion (any act that represents an uprising; disobedience; going in the opposite direction of the standards, norms, and values of the M; directly going against the wishes of their spouse.

Selfishness is the motivation in a wayward. Everything is evaluated as to what is in it for her.

I wanted to make one more comment about the W involved in an affair. Years ago, one of the vets made a statement that I have come to believe more and more. If you see your WW acting all happy and excited, it isn't a good thing. It usually means she has had contact, or is on her way to make contact, with the OM. If you see her down and acting sad, that's a good thing. It means she hasn't had contact with the OM.

You know what you said about having your b@lls firmly attached when you confronted the OM? I would like to borrow that definition to describe how the LBH needs to deal with his WW whenever she is screaming at her H, using foul language, bashing, and generally showing her rear end. I have tried to explain it before, and sometimes, it doesn't come across effectively. But your expression describes it to a tee, and doesn't take nearly the amount of words I would probably use.

[Surfer]

I had the children for an extended weekend for my birthday last weekend. My parents came and stayed too and we had a fantastic time. The children left happy and contented as I dropped them back at my WW's house.

Unfortunately, my WW attempted to needle me into an argument about the children's clothes that I brought back when I dropped them off. The point of debate was that she had wanted me to bring back all of their clothes back rather than leave some at our family home. I didn't think it had been made clear at the time of dropping the children off to me and therefore I attempted to validate her concerns without apologising as such. However, it quickly became a "but you never listen etc" conversation when my wife was clearly trying to extend the debate as much as possible until it ended in an argument. I kept attempting to exit it the conversation saying that I would return with the additional clothes or she would be more than welcome to pick them up. However, she continued to attempt a dialogue as I attempted to exit it. Unfortunately this unsettled the children and left them feeling that mummy and daddy were arguing.

I really do not like this type of manipulation it's an attempt to create conflict which I really do not want to have in front of the children because it's so bad for them. Also there is no need to be like this. We are adults and parents. It is childish and unacceptable.

It is a struggle trying to deal with this in front of the children as my wife knows that I need to distance from it for them and will not engage in warfare. I have therefore come to the conclusion that I need to set a new routine. That is the routine of absolutely zero if not minimal communication between my WW and I when the kids are around. Simple pleasantries and nothing more. When I drop them off at my WW's house I'm going to stand at the garden gate and watch them to the door, blow them a kiss and see them go inside happy. I will not be in a position to receive these ridiculous challenges anymore. I can't see any other way to do it. It is sad and unfortunate reflection of the way my WW wants to engage in conflict - even though this is undoubtedly detrimental to our children. I do not understand why she does this. I do understand her that she has done it for years and I have to put an end to it in a civilised way by having a strategy that works 100% of the time - if at all possible.

I would welcome any tips on how to deal with this and thoughts on why my wife is putting herself first, before our children, to have an argument. Perhaps she feels I should still be there to receive her frustrations. However, as she does not want me as a H I think I need to take off the 'doormat' sign a replace this with a 'gone away' sign.

[Surfer]

Sandi.

Your insight is truly staggering. I really do appreciate the time you've taken to devote to this.

For years, my family and I (parents, in-laws, children etc), have tried to understand what is motivating my wife's behaviour. This has been the cause of much anguish for us all sadly - and I believe it has even caused health issues for some. However, in these few short paragraphs you have explained exactly how and why my wife is acting as she is. You will see from my earlier post that she continues with this behaviour despite the harm inflicted upon our children, in particular - and I remain astonished by this.

I read your note about a WW being sad possibly = OM being out of the picture. I agree with this. However, is rebellion (partying, reckless spending etc) enough as opposed to an OM - could rebellion provide sufficient payoff to the WW? Does there need to be an OM?....This seems like an attention thing - is it? I would appreciate your thoughts. Also will this behaviour escalate to implosion or will she reach a point to suffer some sort of loss - going dark presumably helps here?

Also how do you confront your wife BA ("B@lls Attached") when the children are always present. Bit tricky that one....or do you leave the conversation and revisit it another time? It's like my WW uses the children as a shield. Her tongue is her sword (and my word it is sharp - as is her ability to manipulate) and the presence of children or others is her shield. She can lash out and injure then put up the shield to defend. Any thoughts on how to deal with this? Comments like "I see what you are saying there" doesn't really cut it as my WW will just continue 'going'? Don't get me wrong here, I don't want to attack back, but there needs to be a boundary/consequence at times.

Thank you.

[Surfer]

Sandy tells me my W is a WW. I can see that. However, whilst there was an EA about 2.5 yrs ago I am fairly confident it stopped and there is not an active EA or PA at present.

IMHO, a person can be wayward and not necessarily be in an affair. Ending an affair does not mean they are no longer wayward. Waywardness begins in the heart.....and ends in the heart. Although, ending an affair is absolutely required before she has hope of restoring her heart with loving feelings for her H, and also, in ridding her other negative feelings that started the whole process of her waywardness.

I believe one distinct difference in a WAW and the wayward is that the WW is not interested and won't cooperate in reconciling the MR........no matter what the LBH tries to do to IMPROVE HIMSELF. The WAW is usually hurt and leaves the M due to specific circumstances. If the H corrects or changes those particular problems.......the WAW is more likely (but certainly not always) to consider reconciliation, than the W who is wayward. I say this b/c a WAW usually has a legitimate reason for removing herself, and her children, from the H. And as much as the WW blames on the H.........and even if he may need to make improvements.........she really has no legitimate reason to leave. In other words, it's not him........it's her. Regardless of the petty excuses she may give, her reason is that she's not happy. I believe other distinct differences in the wayward and the WAW, is that the WW plays games; manipulates her H; stoops to any number of levels to get what she wants; tries to cake eat all the time; and will even leave her children.... or put herself over their needs to get her selfish desires filled.

I believe the three areas that are found in waywards are resentment (refusing to forgive and/or letting go of the past; unmet expectations; unfulfilled emotional needs; etc.), disrespect (shown in the tone of voice and volume; put-downs; eye-rolling and other facial & body language; making fun of the S in front of others; not showing respect for the S in front of the children and/or others; lying; deceiving; and many other ways) and rebellion (any act that represents an uprising; disobedience; going in the opposite direction of the standards, norms, and values of the M; directly going against the wishes of their spouse.

Selfishness is the motivation in a wayward. Everything is evaluated as to what is in it for her.

I wanted to make one more comment about the W involved in an affair. Years ago, one of the vets made a statement that I have come to believe more and more. If you see your WW acting all happy and excited, it isn't a good thing. It usually means she has had contact, or is on her way to make contact, with the OM. If you see her down and acting sad, that's a good thing. It means she hasn't had contact with the OM.

You know what you said about having your b@lls firmly attached when you confronted the OM? I would like to borrow that definition to describe how the LBH needs to deal with his WW whenever she is screaming at her H, using foul language, bashing, and generally showing her rear end. I have tried to explain it before, and sometimes, it doesn't come across effectively. But your expression describes it to a tee, and doesn't take nearly the amount of words I would probably use.

[Surfer]

Sorry - need to work out 'quoting'.

I meant to clarify. Whilst there was an EA (providing a payoff) does rebellion Now provide the payoff? Is that sufficient? Is the payoff a 'buzz'? How does the payoff make the WW feel?

Thank you.

[Surfer]

Sandi

Regardless of the petty excuses she may give, her reason is that she's not happy.

Why do you think most WW's are unhappy - or don't they know?