Doodler, it sounds like it helped though. If your mind isn't racing with anxiety and are feeling somewhat optimistic there is so much room for personal growth. You have to be in a reasonable state of mind to take advice or just really see the situation for what it is. I think the hardest part we all struggle with here is we are all blamed for the situation, and we end up blaming ourselves as a result. It's difficult to pull your head out of it. I must admit I've been blaming myself for months, complete breakdowns telling myself what an idiot I was etc etc. even though rationally I know it's not all my fault, my wife has her part in our dysfunction and problems but she does not acknowledge any of it - she just brings up a list of things I've done and there is it, the list of blame - I'm sure this what she reminds herself of everyday. Anyway, I'm seeing the doc after work today so will report back what he ends up prescribing but I know at this point I do need some help. Some days I'm strong and can handle it but most days I'm a bit of a mess however well I hide it.
mvgfwd2 - I couldn't agree with you more. This is where I'm at right now. I'm tired of the situation, feel like I'm being taken for granted, still a little insecure to be honest but plan to take a hard line at the MC session. As I was saying, I'm here to find out how to move on since she feels I'm not what she wants. I just need to learn to shut-up after that as I have a tendency to want to talk a lot when I'm upset or anxious. I think I just need to stick to my wanting to plan the separation that includes the sale of the house. The MC will be looking for an opportunity to talk about reconciliation but I'm not going to pursue it, I'll say my wife doesn't want to be with me so we have to plan for separation at this point. I suck at poker so I know the moment I let up even even for a second, my W will know she still has me under her thumb. I just have to keep saying I can't go on like this. I have to remember to not try and sell me or the relationship, that's not my position anymore.
She knows I love her and don't want us to split so I've put her in this position of power.
Exactly. So now its time to back off. You dont need to say anything else....you've already said it. You are giving her WAY too much power over everything. Why do you need to continue to make it so crystal clear that you dont want to split?
Originally Posted By: James3
she is taking me and my feelings for complete granted.
Exactly. Why are they such a given?
Originally Posted By: James3
I need to stand up and draw a line.
Yes, you need to draw a line, but not where you think it should be. It needs to be around you...not around her. You are trying so hard to control everything with these options. Step back and decide what you want....what is best for you. Youre laying out these choices based on her feelings, but its so unclear what is best for James. Have you stopped to think about it? Assuming she says "I dont have feelings for you" (which she will if you ask her), what option is best for you and your long term goals?
Originally Posted By: James3
"I'm here to find out how to move on since she feels I'm not what she wants"
Huh? Been suggested by who? This makes no sense. Why are you asking HER how to move on? And do you even WANT to move on? Why should your decision to end this relationship be made on what she is feeling. Do YOU want it to end?
You arent there to attack or make grand proclamations. You are there to listen and validate. The less you say, the better. The less you ASK, the better.
Originally Posted By: James3
"Either we both work on the problems together, learn to be patient with each others faults as we work through them, and focus on finding our way back to loving each other under the same roof, or I will see no other choice but to end it."
I think you are asking for way too much way too soon. I believe if you say this, you are moving closer to being divorced. So, whats the benefit?
Originally Posted By: James3
"I see no other option at this point because she is unwilling to look at her contribution to the dysfunction, and I won't remain married to someone who has this approach, either".
This is certainly fair. But it wont get her to change her approach or thinking. So, do you mean this? If she doesnt, will you follow through?
Originally Posted By: James3
I've got nothing to lose at this point, she is slipping away.
I said this to someone else, but I think it applies here. You are assessing the situation as if it is bottom of the ninth, bases loaded, down 3, where a home run wins it.
It's not.
You are down 7 runs and theres nobody on. Sure, you can "swing for the fences" and try to hit a home run. But theres no value there. It wont change much in the grand scheme of things. Instead, all you really need to do is get on base. Single after single.
Originally Posted By: James3
The point is to force her to really consider if she is making the right choice by taking me away from her.
Again, it isnt your words or her words that will do this. It's your ACTIONS. Stop making it so clear how much you love her. Actually start detaching. Actually start GAL. Stop trying to "convince" her of anything or "force" anything. It's like pushing on a string.
[quot=James3]need to get some control of my life back.
My wife can sense my insecurity, knows that I love her, don't want us to split up so she can do and say whatever the hell she wants, she's in a position of emotional power over me. This cannot go on like this. My point in what I am saying above is not a threat. I really can't go on in the current situation we are in. [/quote] You have the tools to take control of yourself. You cant control the situation, but you can control JAMES. The way you act, the way you speak, the way you feel. YOU have control over those things. Take it.
I have already tried backing off, GAL'ing, not being home much, not asking any questions, out of sight, keeping busy with the kids sports, working out, running and have done this for months. She doesn't care. I'm trying to figure out what my approach should be at the MC session and I get some people saying give her divorce papers, you can always remarry, others saying to just plan to move on, so say to the MC "I'm here to find out how to move on since she (wife) feels I'm not what she wants". I think this is a fair statement. I have thought about what I want, and I don't want this situation any more - it's terrible living like this and i can't do it anymore. I wanted us to reconcile but that isn't happening so I feel I don't have much choice. My only choices are to stay living the way we are (my w doesn't want this either) or move for formal separation. I need to let her know I've had enough of this and am moving on. I truly believe this is the only way she will truly give some serious thought to our relationship and know that she may lose me. If she doesn't care, she'll say so and I've got my answer and I'm doing the right thing. If she does care, well that's a different conversation. No, I'm not 100% sure about much of anything these days but I do know I can't go on living like this.
I should add that the way i got my W to go back to the MC was I said to try and work out a separation amicably. W got very mad and upset when I told her this, said I blind sided her with this, said our money would be better spent on lawyers (I said that doesn't sound very amicable), spouted other stuff and eventually we went our separate ways. She sent me a text 10 minutes later agreeing to go the MC. In response to her text I sent this response:
"I have to tell you, you dropped a bomb on me last weekend. I thought we had a chance but you made it crystal clear you were done and just want separation. You asked me to think about it and I have. You've left me no choice but to look at a separation and how we can manage it amicably. This wasn't at all where I wanted us to go but I have no control over it and I have accepted that. My call to the MC was to see if she can facilitate something like this - and she strongly recommended it. Thank you for agreeing to go."
So this is where we are at and the reason why we are going.
You jolted her when you started talking separation. You might as well keep going down that path because it is the one that put a bucket of reality on her and, frankly, it's really the only path you have without any willingness on her part. Don't waver, it will be spotted, unless she firmly wants to reconcile. Actions, not words are your best course. Pursuing separation is an action, talking about it is just words and essentially weakening your position. Not replying to every inane text is an action, replying with anything is just words, meaningless and weak. Not accompanying her to visit friends is an action, strong. See how that works. Stop talking and start doing.
Me:49 W:45 M:19 T:22 EA confirmed and ended 8/2014 S:19,17 D:9,5
You jolted her when you started talking separation. You might as well keep going down that path because it is the one that put a bucket of reality on her and, frankly, it's really the only path you have without any willingness on her part. Don't waver, it will be spotted, unless she firmly wants to reconcile. Actions, not words are your best course. Pursuing separation is an action, talking about it is just words and essentially weakening your position. Not replying to every inane text is an action, replying with anything is just words, meaningless and weak. Not accompanying her to visit friends is an action, strong. See how that works. Stop talking and start doing.
I agree, nothing else I've done DB'ing has changed a thing. I'm not just doing this as a tactic, I really can't do this anymore and things are just getting worse. She knows how I feel and what I want, I've said it enough, so I won't bring it up anymore. My focus has to be the intent to separate and sell the house. While the house is our home and my kids feel safe there, it is a huge financial burden on me. Aside from the guilt of losing this house (that we built for our family) there is a part of me that wants to sell it to get out from all of this debt. If we sold the house I would plan to rent a place in the same neighborhood so as to not change schools and friends etc. I was fearful of putting something in motion that I don't really want to happen but I don't see any other way forward.
Remember she may get extremely angry about you wanting to separate. Par for the course. Let it roll off. Women will lie, cheat, be nice, be mean, use sex, whatever to get you back under their thumb. You driving the separation bus flipped the script. You will most likely see some bad behavior until the realization that it's not working on you. Be strong.
Me:49 W:45 M:19 T:22 EA confirmed and ended 8/2014 S:19,17 D:9,5
Thanks mvgfwd2! Not sure how she will react - likely be happy to sign up for the separation lol (sorry - I've had a few glasses of wine).
Seriously though, I do appreciate what you are saying and the timing is really ideal. I need to be strong in this meeting, I can't just cave at the first sign of her not wanting to separate (if she does). It's not just getting her interested in reconciliation, I need her to acknowledge her part in the demise of our marriage if there is any hope for a better future together - it's not all my fault. She came from a dysfunctional home and the apple doesn't fall from the tree but she won't acknowledge her mistakes. I guess my point is that I'm really starting to question if I would be happy even if we got back together. Sure, it would be easier, we wouldn't upset the kids, no upset to our friends and family but ultimately I would be lying in bed with the same person who most nights decides to give me [censored] about something 30 minutes after we have gone to sleep. It's amazing what you get used to - I'm just now being a little more honest with my self about our relationship. It's always been tense with her - I can't describe it any better way. Just being a little introspective I guess.
Just got back from the MC session and things went the way I figured they would. The MC first asked my W what her hopes and wants are and she just said to separate amicably. The MC then asked do you see any chance for reconciliation or are you done, W said she is done then went on to give examples of the things I've done and said and she can't let go of basically. It was all a little longer winded than all this but you get the idea. MC then asked me the same questions and I said I had hoped that we would reconcile up until about a week ago after the last talk between my W and I. I said that during that conversation my W again blamed me for the reasons we are in this situation and didn't take any ownership of the problems she has created and led to the demise of our marriage. That and she told me she isn't in love with me anymore, and has told me in the past she doesn't respect me and doesn't want to be around me. I said, at that point I realized I didn't see a way back for our marriage. MC said so are you saying you are done and won't work on the marriage and I said, based on what my wife has said to me, yes I'm done, there is nothing there for me to get back to. It wasn't easy but I stayed strong and didn't waiver in my position.
We then proceeded to go through an entire separation workbook of all the considerations (living arrangements, kids, financials etc) we need to think about and document in this booklet. Even talked about sex with other people and that if we weren't 100% sure that we might get back together that any sex with someone else would need to be protected sex with a condom etc (these were the MC examples). Her point in going through all of this was to dump the reality of what we are about to embark on - it's very sobering. We both just sat there and answered questions nodded that we understood each section etc. There is a lot we need to plan out, the biggest of which is the house and what we are going do with it considering we have kids. It was a 2.5 hour session and was a lot to take in and process but I was fine at the meeting (I took .5mg Lorazapam before we went). So I don't have too much to say right now as it was a lot to take in but for the first time ever in this process I'm really starting to wonder if separation isn't better for us in the long run. A week ago this discussion with the MC would have ripped my heart out. What changed for me was hearing my W say ILYBINILWY. That was for me when I gave up hope. And that hope was really taking a toll on me. I'm not saying I'm 100% over the possibility of reconciliation, more that my direction and focus has really done a 180 towards separation and reconciliation would be unexpected outcome if it were to occur.
The only point where my W slightly wavered was when she said she isn't 100% sure about anything right now (the MC asked if she was sure about all of this). I didn't say anything. When we were leaving, my W used the bathroom and the MC said to me you can't change someone's mind and I said I know (was thinking of all you guys, we all remind each other that we can't change or control our spouses, only ourselves).
I don't think my W and I will talk about any of this until after the weekend. My youngest son is going to a friends cottage for the weekend (long weekend coming - Canada Day) and I'm taking my 14 year old son to a massive camp ground (it's hardly a campground - hundreds of 40 ft permanent trailers with pizza shops, water slides, live bands etc) where two of our friends have family trailers. My sister and her family will be there along with some of my other good friends so will be comforting for me and a good time to do some bonding with my son (if i can pull him out of the paint ball forest for an hour or so - I may go play with him). W will be home with an empty house (rare - we've always done things as a family) but all her girlfriends live on the same block so I suspect a lot of wine drinking this weekend!
Oh, saw the doc last night and was prescribed Cipralex (that's the brand name in Canada, same as Lexapro in US). Started it this morning, probably should have waited until tomorrow but wanted to get going on the stuff. Felt a little dizzy, had some diarrhea, sweaty and jitters but by the evening (for the MC session) most everything had settled down. Doubt one dose would have helped with dealing with the issues today but who knows.
So, in a nutshell things don't look good - we seem to be proceeding with separation, it's just a matter of working out the details.
Anyway, there's a quick update. Thanks for all your support folks!
