Being there to help v going dark:balance

[Surfer]

Thanks. Funny really : )

[Surfer]

Ace. What a star.

[Surfer]

My WAW has now gone on holiday with her 'girlfreinds' (I suppose all WAW or WAH's have them - those friends who cover up inappropriate behaviors with lies or are the ones that will stir up negativity in your WAW (or H). I really agonized over this as the option to take the kids and be the best Dad was there even though it felt like I was having the kids 'dumped' as my WAW needs a break as she is stressed. I talked carefully with her and decided that until a Schedule for custody is in place there will be changes. We are nearly there on the Schedule. However, something rather strange happened. I offered to drive my wife to the Airport and with some hesitation she accepted. We talked and laughed on the way. She was down and hurting too and was a little teary at times - over the anniversary of the death of a close family member. Anyway, I validated and kept happy (i.e. not anxious). The negative self talk inside me was put aside and I focused on her and enjoying her company. I cant remember how many times she thanked me - but it was a lot. I offered to pick her up on Sunday and she agreed but only if you are not busy....there could be a bit of cake eating, but it felt like the right thing to do and from the interaction it felt very much like piecing. I feel like I did the right thing. Hopefully I did. I want to send her a message to let her know that I care but I think I will hold back. I did say 'be careful' as she went - she will perhaps get it from that? I think I still need to do the GAL and leave her to focus on her on stresses when she returns - they wont go anywhere (the burden of job, kids, etc all alone) but be there when she calls, texts or visits and listen, validate and avoid conflicts. Does this all sound about right?

[sandi2]

there could be a bit of cake eating, but it felt like the right thing to do and from the interaction it felt very much like piecing

Seriously?

Surfer, of course it felt good to you, but I assure you it was not piecing! It felt good to you b/c she was not b'tching, fault blaming, or whatever she does that makes you feel the lowest of low. You took a three hour round trip so she could catch her plane, so she should have been nice to you!

Here's the thing and I hope you will digest what I am about to say. You feel all these acts of services are "the right thing to do" b/c you are making it all about her. I suspect that has been routine behavior in your MR. You live to please your W. You feel obligated to do whatever she wants, needs, or instructs. You see it as your job. You feel this is how you express your love. Am I hitting it pretty closely?

Even in a healthy MR, the spouse needs to be watchful to not cater too much. I have seen this in men and women. I also see the results when it's overkill. I think you are one of the nicest of nice-guys, and you may be very resistant in changing some of your ways, but I hope not. Maybe when you learn how women perceive things differently much differently from the mindset of the H who has the nice-guy syndrome, you will understand how it played a part in the breakdown of your MR.

You are being too available to your W. You want to please her, but this is not the time to do it. She has fired you as her H. So now, your job description changes!

I read something on another LBH'S thread that I thought was so pertinent in all these threads. The WW wants you to continue doing all the H jobs but she doesn't want to be your W. So very true!

You need to step away from her, and allow her to feel life without you there at her beck and call.

[liono]

I offered to drive...

I offered to pick her up...

You offered both times. Question for you is that usual behavior? What would be the 180?

I want to send her a message to let her know that I care but I think I will hold back. I did say 'be careful' as she went - she will perhaps get it from that?

Good choice! She doesn't care right now that you care. She did once, but today, no. That's the thing, you don't WANT her to "get it" or be reminded of it. Words right now mean nothing to her and will only serve to reinforce the ideas she has about M in her head.

And btw, I know them feels, man. Trying to go from "Nice Guy" to "Great Man" myself here, and it's hard to go against your own instincts. I find myself thinking, there's no way she's going to love me again if I don't do X. Something that helps me process is to think "has this helped the last 9 years of M?". I took out the garbage, did the cooking, helped around the house, took tons of care of the kids. Still ended up here. Gotta try something new.

[Surfer]

Sandi

Thanks and I appreciate the straight talk. Don't apologise for the straight talking approach. It's what makes you clear and a great guide in this forum. Don't worry you don't come accross as harsh. You come accross as direct and that what us newbies need - direction.

I totally agree with your comments but I was not always the guy that tried to please all the time. I was the guy that at times was quite selfish and said to stuff that I didn't agree with. We would debate and or argue and sometimes I would do what I felt was right anyway - sometimes it's better to apologise later rather than seek approval at times. Nothing major and I did do my fair share of compromise but certainly not a push over. So on that front I would say I was not the person you described so much. However, when the sh#t hit the fan and the D word was mentioned and I saw an EA it changed the game. I then became exactly the person you defined. It is hard to do the 180 - I only heard of it a month ago and have only really been trying to implement since she advised of moving out 3 weeks ago. I am going to sort it though as I feel like I have become a total doormat and it is really not me.

Time to get my balls back - they have been dangling from the WAWs ear lobes for far too long!!

[Surfer]

Sandi asked for more information about my history. I have now put some thought to this. I have summarised in the usual way below. Apolgies for the length of text that follows. I could write so much more....but that's enough I think.

Me:45
WAW:39
T:20
M:12
D:8
S:6
EA:
BD (Properly):01/2015
W Moved Out:06/2016

As a couple we argued from early on. I suspect this is healthy but I was often the one who stopped it by saying “You can pack that nonsense in I am not interested in shouting” – not very empathetic but at least I still had ‘a pair’! In fairness we (all) get nothing from shouting in my view and why would I want to shout with someone I love. I now feel if I had simply exhausted her need to talk and done things together more things might have been different (see the book – The Chimp Paradox – really worth a read). But she does talk, and a lot. I read on the Forum, somewhere, that a WAW had said “if only he had explained that he just needs the facts and does not want the drama” – this sounds perfect. But it would not have happened (or I doubt it strongly) – my WAW needs to be heard and understood on a very big scale. Lots and lots and lots of talking – a therapist I am not, a husband yes (always). I was always happiest just sat having a cuddle watching a film together etc.

I came from an argument/drama free family (pretty much) and her family, well let’s say “he doesn’t get on with her” and “she doesn’t talk to him”, lots of secrets that obviously comes out over time - lots of alliances and dramas. It makes Dallas look like the Waltons. My parents would argue – don’t get me wrong. But they would make up within 24 hours. Fall outs in WAW’s family might take 24 years to get over! Grudges are kept nothing is forgotten (or at least never put to the back of the mind) and punishment is regular. It’s a power tool for the ladies in their family. Anyway – just background, not sure it is useful

Having said that we both have parents that are together and love each other – although in 20 years I have never seen any affection between her parents – just criticism. My Dad was always a straight forward man. Always a ‘mans’ man, but would help around the house - yet his role was ‘bread winner’ first. He loved us and I respect him for being a dad. WAW’s mum always worked and always criticised her H, he cooked all meals, did everything around the house etc – superdad!

However, he was always criticised. He could paint the house, “he missed a bit”, do the garden “no that’s not right”, cook the dinner “the carrots are undercooked” etc.

WAW’s mother also had this thing about never having to rely on her husband for money – a woman should be able to make it alone (kind of ‘I don’t need to rely a man’ type of thing – I get this but I think there is a lot to blame with this culture of not wanting to need or want each other and the ‘gender blending’ of roles – the ‘metrosexual man’ and the ‘ladette’ roles are clear an prevalent examples and are plain wrong ways for me).

My WAW and her Mother very much need to be heard. They always have something to say and always must be heard and agreed with. Don’t get me wrong, I do truly love them both – but it’s very strange and just background observations for info. Perhaps it adds insight, perhaps not. It’s not blame it’s just perception. Also if this makes me come across as a misogynist, please know I am definitely not – quite the opposite. But I definitely don’t agree with the H doormat role (at all). We should be equal – in respect and love. That’s it.

Fast forward and D is born. WAW gives up work where she is surrounded by nice girls etc a good crowd for drinks after work and fun. Essentially her ‘fun time’ disappears as she becomes a mum – when she leaves (which is sad but inevitable – but it is for her to keep her friendships alive not me). Life just changes, I firmly believe in being Darwinian. Adapters survive the best and as change is the only guaranteed constant…..

At this point, we rarely go out and she highlights this (I am working very hard – in a very demanding be very well paid role), I agree but would rather go somewhere away from where I work in the middle of a city whereas she wants the bright lights and the buzz. We go out less but spend lots of time together as a family - life is great (to me anyway).
However, we soon start spending more than my very significant take home pay each month – which we talk about and she gets defensive (I am worried at this stage), there is nothing to show for the spending, credit cards are appearing and on top of that my WAW starts working voluntarily (i.e. no pay) and neglecting the home. In my mind, (she has never been particularly keen on doing chores – she often seems vexed doing anything other than cooking – she is an amazing cook, to me). My mother was always the home maker so this is partly my problem as I see it. We have a couple of conversations about some money that goes missing and a credit card bill – 10,000 in total. Given we are spending more than I earn as well and should not be, and the house is always a mess when I get home I raise this. Together with why did she take on a job with no pay. My view was work and get paid and pay for a cleaner if you don’t like housework but you want company or a job (she does this later and blames me for having to work). Or leave the job alone and focus on us and home (what I really wanted) I we also had words about the mess (twice I think – I don’t think I handled this well really and regret it, she was a new mum and probably was struggling more than I knew, I should have been more sympathetic; yet I was working hard and frayed at the edges trying to cope too).

Arguments still happen at this point but I feel happy as we have the most beautiful D and whilst my wife is feeling lonely I still have to do my job (which means evening functions 1 – 2 nights a week, max – I should have knocked these on the head but….that’s my wrong doing) otherwise I was back to do bath time, bed bottles etc 5 out of 7 nights. She would get time shopping with mum or other time whenever she wanted it. Still we did little that was exciting together – other than visiting family, sitting talking etc but that felt fine to me (I thought it was for her as she always ‘seemed’ happy – perhaps this was a front).

At times I made the mistake of not wanting an ‘ear-bashing’ when I got home, and used to say “can I just have 30 mins to unwind”. I should have found a way to do this before coming home – gym etc in hindsight. Again, my fault; I know there is a lot of ‘my fault’ in this – I make no apologies for being ‘apologetic’ for things I see. I regret these things.
Throughout our relationship there was distance and pursuit. An argument would appear – out of nowhere (constructed by WAW). I would tend to defend my side rather than listen; she would shout and rage – I would disengage from the argument and she would then go cold (Distance) I would then somehow talk her round. So Distancing and Pursuit was always there – I see it in her parents also. Yet not in mine so much. I guess I am trying to get across a nature thing I see – on both sides.
Moving forward, arguments are now regular and my wife is often in tears (mostly at night) citing the problem as the omnipresent and never defined “it” and “this”. When I used to ask what it was, to see how to help, it just seemed to be defined as ‘the relationship’ was the problem. It was all classic Drama Triangle behaviour. She would begin as Victim and would quickly become Persecutor as I went from Rescuer to Victim. At the time I knew nothing about such things so used to get a terrible ‘ear-bashing’. Later I learned how to exit the Drama Triangle and other “Games People Play” – I have read this book and many others (spoken to counsellors at length and listened/downloaded etc as we all have).

The arguments are always stem from ‘prodding and poking’ to get a ‘rise’. Mostly I just listened and tried not to engage as the kids were asleep. It was a horrible time and I really grew to fear my wife (it is sad to say).
Our son was born and life seemed happier again. My wife soon became tearful etc again and whilst depression etc was all talked about and has been many times since (I could tell you many, many stories about this) – she said was not happy (rather than depressed).

Regular shouting moved to raging occasionally. I was lost and just didn’t know what to do. At one point she was hospitalised for stress, given I was still doing all I could taking over from say Thursday night on night feeds (unless she insisted) and then handing back on Monday - when I went to work. She had no more a stressful life than any other mum that was not working and did not need to work (at all financially). Perhaps she had taken on an unpaid job – but I frequently suggested she drop it all together not necessarily needing to get a job that paid, just give up. I didn’t like seeing her stressed but didn’t know what to do. The alien had taken hold it seemed.

Arguments and tears escalated to shouting and rage regularly. I was glad to be out of the house 2 evenings a week by now – and made sure I came home late. In fact, I did not want to be around this “thing” that had taken over my wife.
After a few years things carry on sliding. I am taking the kids to nursery/school most mornings and home 5 – 6 nights out of 7 to help on average. My wife has begun to rage at night now whenever possible. Arguing does not work and, at the time, as I am still defending or trying to understand/talk. However, it is seen as hovering I guess (not going dark).

At this time, my WAW moves to detachment - spending a lot of time holidaying with friends with and without kids. She has a group of new friends who do not act like they are married, 40 with kids (mostly married with husbands earning very well and nice guys). Weekend party time holidays, drinks, dressing up as anything from ‘Police Girls’ to a ‘Harem of girls’ whilst away (no husbands!). Not good. I can smell trouble but I can’t stop this - I make it clear this is not acceptable. I also make it clear how damaging it is. In one year alone there were 4 holidays some in Europe and some in the UK (2 with kids but always with ‘the girls’ – this behaviour still continues). All of this time could have been time together as “a family” but she chose “friends”. My heart was slowly breaking (so hard) as my wife was happy to skip off seeing her children and me heart broken. The kids could see it too.

Eventually I found 3 months of EA activity on her phone. A guy I ended up contacting and meeting after confronting her. I also tracked her going to meet him – she denies this (never snooped before and not for years since – nothing but harm comes from this, it breaks trust). I made it clear to both parties that they should stop this and for a time this works. It then started again and I made contact to make the OM clear that he must not be in contact again – he got the message at that point (nothing physical but let’s just say ‘my balls’ were firmly attached when we spoke!).

It still frustrates me a little that I don’t know if there was anything physical that happened with the OM (I wish I knew – any thoughts…?) – but I guess I wouldn’t change my stance so there is little point in knowing. I did confess all this EA to her parents as I did not know how to handle this and I suppose I wanted some support to try to get their help to get through to their daughter. This never worked (obviously) as it was for us to deal with – this is another reason our families are different. I would have been chase up and down the street by my parents for such behaviour.

It is probably important at this point to highlight that most arguing is contrived in these situations I see this now. The WAW goes from feeling “this is not working” to a making a decision – ”I must leave”. But to do this they need a story with a villain in it. The villain is the LBH (he is not but she needs to believe that and more importantly make everyone else believe it – including the LBH). So starts the needling, prodding, arguing – at Olympic standard. The smallest thing, and boom – from zero to nuclear in seconds! Any fallout – the wrong word by the LBH and this becomes ammo for the WAW’s propaganda to broadcast about the LBH. Propaganda is sent far and wide. Whoever listens gets it until they can’t listen anymore, the WAW then finds more and more (people) to listen.

The story grows and history is re-written.

Around this time my WAW tries to kick me out of our room (after some argument she wanted) I refuse and tell her she can leave our bed but I am not (she doesn’t have any authority to ask me to leave). She moves out of our room and never moves back. This is 2 – 3 years ago.

Fast forward a few months and she asks me to go to MC. Although I resist (briefly) at first, eventually I agree. The MC spends 95% of the time talking to my wife. My wife does not like the process as she does not have an ally in the female MC. The MC explains that whilst I am not perfect, quite rightly, the problem is actually her and she needs to understand her issues or she will replicate them in the next relationship if not this one. We are advised by the MC that someone has made me feel “unlovable” and my wife is “angry” (she still denies she is angry). MC ends and we are told we need more Mc and need to learn to talk (we are both not listening/communicating effectively). I am hopeful and ask if the MC could help further, my wife refuses (in fact she refused to enter into the exercises the MC set us in any event). It feels like everything I want is slipping through my fingers at this point (marriage, kids etc).

After this I enrole on a course with another well know specialist based in Baltimore. For 2 years I listen to and read all I can. I spend at least 2 hours a day doing this and listening to mindfulness audio downloads to help me cope. At times I feel like I am cracking up. Slowly through this and exercise I get a little of me back bit by bit. But at the same time my wife is still detaching. She has a new job, which she hates - and does not pay enough etc, she distances fully from my family (won’t answer their calls), she distances me from her family and ‘our’ friends, gets independent bank account etc and she continues to distance from me. Our bedroom is called “yours”, “we are not married”, the room she sleeps in is “her room” – I must not enter and so the fear is there established - omnipresent. Eggshells are familiar underfoot and the kids are talking to me at bedtime saying they are scared we might divorce and why is mummy shouting.

I totally stop the shouting by validating and detaching from unproductive conversations. My wife stops talking but complains we are not talking. Bizarre – particularly when I ask her if she wants to….

Eventually she sends a legal letter sent after I advise her to do something about it rather than just threatening to do something. My mistake I guess…..

Later she moves out taking a lot of money and renting a place nearby. I do of course miss her – I take the kids to school every day and am working on access to formalise this - nearly there but she is resisting (presumably to control). I see her every day when she drops the kids but won’t engage in conversation – she often tries but this is 20mins with the kids where they can talk to me before school and I can make them feel secure. I tell her to call me if she needs to talk or text. Often these talks have barbs – and she wants to use them to hook you in and give you pain (Drama Triangle stuff LBS’s you must understand the “Drama Triangle” and also “Why Don’t You Yes But” together “Lets You and Him Have a Fight” also “PAC - Transactional Analysis” - IMHO).

I am working hard at trying to GAL and detach. I am working with a DB coach also. I am also getting ‘rather buff’ down the gym, working hard on a new business and getting out regularly with friends (need to take the alcohol steady though as hangovers and anxiety are terrible bedfellows).
What I have learned….. OK I didn’t make the choices my WAW did (yet I don’t know if there was an A, 3 months of constant texting and pictures etc) – and they, for me, were devastating; for us all. But she is in the Fog and has been for a long time. However I have my part to play. She tells me I didn’t listen to her and she felt others needed to validate her voice – to me (certainly the OM did). She felt I could not accept her way might be better than mine (I do accept her way but I don’t want this thrown down my throat all the time particularly regularly and on trivial matters (how to iron, stack the dishwasher, brush the kids teeth etc – criticism and direction is learned behaviour from her mother I have little doubt – it breaks you down constant criticism over truly unimportant things that you can handle).

She had her guard up due to all of “this”. She felt if she had a genuine reason to be upset that I should accept it and take the blame rather than provide justification – which might involve “you do this also points from my side” (whatever the current ‘this’ is) or “but…I saw it this way”. She is right, I have done many of these things (being detached and independent, not listening etc) and I am by no means perfect as a partner. I have done other things too – usual guy stuff - a couple of beers, then roll in later than planned etc. All of these things definitely do not help. That I understand and they have chipped away at her. I have my ‘fixing’ too.

I have been working on my fixings – reading books on listening, empathising etc but I really don’t want to so see me as her (gay) friend – no offence. I am a bloke – a man. Not some hairy arsed pseudo psych that is hell bent on listening and understanding. What happened to “me man” you “woman” I provide you care – the gender blender is not good. Simplistic and probably a bit harsh I get it.

I just hope that time apart can help us fix our own issues and heal as a couple. It may not and therefore I am working on me now. I desperately love them all, but my happiness and that of the kids is so important now. I am not calling or texting unless I have to (there have been a couple of slip ups but they are stopping) and am feeling less pain when she tries to get the barbs in.

She spent time away with her friends in Europe last weekend. She missed her alarm and flight back (clearly too drunk to wake up or persuaded by friends to get the later flight they were on – which they were) I just had a great time with the kids and spoiled them. I kept them another night washed and ironed their uniforms for school did packed lunches and loved it (before she would have blocked me from doing all that – back then, when living together, she didn’t want the good news to get out it seemed – that I was actually decent). On her return it was all “I am so sorry, I am so angry at myself”, “Please can we talk?”. I said “Let’s leave it for now, the kids are in bed.” We haven’t talked since really. However, yesterday she was particularly rude, so it was time for boundaries. I told her not to talk to me like that again (after all I don’t need to take it any more – I am not here to support her like that). My D8 heard me (after D8 said I sounded cross – I was; and taking my balls back). This morning
I told my D8 it’s not wrong to tell someone you don’t appreciate the way they are talking to you. I try for them not to hear any of this. But where they do I explain in ways they can understand so they can make the right choices in their lives. My WAW tried to ‘talk’ again at drop off today. It would have been a chance to get some ‘barbs’ in, to ‘prod’ to have an ongoing ‘drama’. I declined as I only get a short time with the kids in the morning. I said you can always call if you need to. They will drop by after school for my daughters piano practice my WAW will be ready to ‘talk’ again then. I will again decline this talk as I will be busy or spending time with my S6.

I do wonder if I should listen to her (but I hate her creating drama in front of the kids S6 really struggles with it. Given that is her compliant (“I don’t listen”) I am confused but I am sure it’s all just Drama Triangle stuff – this is always the difficult bit for me – “getting the balance”. Particularly as my previous Marriage Fitness course, whilst useful, had a different slant. DB is doing a 180, LRT and Going Dark. In terms of Marriage Fitness its “call every day”, or as much as you can, “touch”, “talk”, “be there for anything they ask” – for help etc. I find it hard to know to do. I think going dark seems like the right thing. Perhaps I was taking the wrong advice at the wrong stage. I regret this to some degree but it helped me understand too so not all bad.

The other day I got my S6 glasses mended as he was distressed at breaking them. He was happy with this. WAW said his other sunglasses were at the Opticians also. I nearly did not pick them up – thinking she can do it and needs to feel that she is on her own (not because I don’t wat to – of course I do). But I did – “nice guy” I know. I know she does not want me as a H but it felt wrong not to do this – if only for my son. But really the battle was “I want to please her” v “Don’t do anything for her that a loving H would do (as she does not want that (you) right now)”. Guidance on this is really important for me.

I get the whole, “accept the divorce and create a life you are happy with if it happens so you really are happy should it happen and let her see that”. But “don’t be there when they ask” (they have chosen this) – that seems a bit perverse in terms of my feelings , as I guess I still feel so much for her.

She asked me to listen and pay attention to her. If I had this listened before, this might have done the job? If she asks me for help…..it feels similar (to the love I still feel for her) and it is very confusing now – listen or not, when and what to etc. Going dark is not always easy I guess. But I have to do what is right – what is right here is strange and unnatural.
I still hurt, I also know she does too and of course the kids are coping (but hurt too) and I always make them happy and talk to them appropriately but I miss my very, very, treasured “unit”. I felt (and still feel), after all, that our “united-ness” was my life.

So now you have my background – and it feels quite inappropriate to share this. But if it helps I will do anything I can. Any advice would be well received. Be blunt, feel free.

[Surfer]

Really struggling today. Received a mediation letter today yesterday. How my WAW can continue to act like normal I don't know. Meanwhile my world and that of the children crumbles.

[doodler]

Surfer,

I'm sorry to hear you're struggling. I went through the same feelings and emotions the you're going through. I wondered how my WW could be so cruel that she would break up our family and she didn't seem to understand how much pain she was putting everyone through.

Keep moving forward and try to get out and do something fun. I know that's easy to say and hard to do at times like this, but it really helps to get out and be around other people.

[DDJ]

hey surfer,

Building on what doodler says, you need to change your actions.

Disregard the mediation, insanely difficult. But you need to take a step back, take all of your emotions out of what is happening and just look at it, at face value.

I learnt a great phrase... Sometimes when you think that everything is falling apart around you, it is actually just falling into place.

Also, your WAW does not care about you, or your childrens feelings. You need to do the same for her feelings.