What should I be Doing (piecing 6)

[Coconut]

If I had to distill all of that ^^^^ into one sentence it would be this:

Do you want a Mexican standoff or save the M?

LOL, I thought of the Mexican standoff analogy too... damned if I do, damned if I don't..

For what it's worth, although I move the goal posts in my thread, I haven't said a word to W about R since MC on Tuesday. I recognize that I need to figure out what I want to do, I know I want to save M just need to figure out what the best path is to get there.

I've been thinking about it since yesterday, and my thought is to wait until academy is complete to figure out where I go from there. We are having a good time together right now, she knows the Firehouse messes with my head and she tries to be sensitive to that, and she asked me out tonight. All in all, I don't need to be in a hurry, I have time on my side to see how much the academy/firehouse actually interferes with our piecing.

I am trying to take advice at arms distance, but I really really appreciate the different perspectives. It seems to me that all WS share similar traits, and that the same actions are needed by all to get them out of the fog. But it seems that once out of the fog, it doesn't seem that what works is so well defined.

What I do know is that contact with OM or not, my W is almost completely back to who she was prior to this whole mess started. My issues have been that back to where we were is not good enough, we need to put in more work and pay more attention to each other.

[Wonka]

Coconut,

You write:

For what it's worth, although I move the goal posts in my thread, I haven't said a word to W about R since MC on Tuesday. I recognize that I need to figure out what I want to do, I know I want to save M just need to figure out what the best path is to get there.

Figuring out the best path seems to me that you are waiting for the "ideal" conditions to do so....which just fear talking you out of taking a step forward. If you wait for this or that, then there will be no movement. Waiting for perfect timing never did serve Steve Jobs at all.

[RSG]

My mom (who is a feminist with a PHD) said "people that say the kids have to come first are making excuses because they don't want to put what's needed into the relationship".

This speaks to me greatly. It's what my WW has repeated over and over (even though she dumped both S and I day after day to go play single woman for at least 5 months) since she walked out. Just a lame excuse. Our S is so important, but she's using him to fuel her selfish actions rather than actually looking out for him. Thank you for sharing this, I'll never take that phrase (our S comes first) seriously again.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Whether Mrs. Coconut gives up the volunteer fire fighting gig has nothing to do whatsoever with her slightly messed up priorities regarding her son versus her husband.

She conflated the issues in her email but I don't see how it really supports her argument to keep the job.

Her logic went something like:

-We went from a loving relationship to a friendship
-I love my son more than you (you can never understand a mother's love)
-My son is 16 and leaving home soon
-I need this "job" to help deal with him leaving
-your feelings don't matter

Loving her son more than him has nothing to do with why she should or shouldn't keep this job. It doesn't add to the argument at all. It's not like Coconut is asking her to choose him over her son. Suppose she actually loved her husband equal to or more than her son --> she'd still want to keep the job because she is going to miss son when he leaves for college and they become empty nesters anyway. Loving her son more than her husband has nothing to do with keeping this volunteer position working with a bunch of men and with a guy she recently had an affair with.

Plus ---> her son isn't AT the firehouse and he's not left the nest yet. He's got one or two more years of high school so if she really loved him so much you would think she would want to be sticking around home for just a little longer getting every piece of son time she can possible get before he leaves for college. Further, she (and you) have a chance here to demonstrate and model repentance, appropriate apologies, forgiveness, redemption, restoration within the context of a marital relationship to your (her?) son. I know he's 16 but I'm sure he'd prefer his parents to be in a loving kind relationship versus a contentious and/or divorced one.

My point is ---> it's not about love or who ranks higher ---> this is about a yet foggy recently wayward wife expressing her (to be expected) selfishness and entitlement. After ALL she's endured {slight eye roll because some is real and some is not but none of it justifies her choice to cheat}, she FEELS she deserved/deserves this. Her feelings misguide her and her statements portray a woman that isn't thinking clearly.

If she truly wants a loving marriage instead of a "friendly" one, there are certain boundaries that need to be in place. You don't work closely with old boyfriends/girlfriends or people you made out with recently while married. There's no negotiating boundaries. They just are. Can you imagine the arguments you could have with the fence in your back yard? Just try asking the metal meshed staked fence to step back a foot or fall down and let you through.

Again, you don't have to be mean or upset about it. You don't even have to say "quit or I'm divorcing you". You just say "No, it's not acceptable" and maybe "I'm not going to acquiesce to my own abuse". If she rants you ask her if she is trying to control your feelings and how you feel like a caged animal unable to express your feelings. If she wants to file divorce, that's fine...it's a free country and you can't make her not file (because this isn't about controlling her). If she asks if you are going to file divorce you maybe say something like "probably not - but I'm going to continue to object to this job while continuing also to be the best husband , father (or step father), person I can be and continue to demonstrate that I love you as you struggle with your choices (i.e.- demonstrating that "you are there for her" while recognizing she's very lost right now). I have no intention of controlling you or making you quit but you should know and will continue to be told that everyday you "volunteer" devastates me. Hopefully someday, sooner or later, that will matter enough to you. If she brings up the son argument again or ranking her love ---> this isn't about your relationship with son, this is about you, me and our family being the best we can be.

Her compliance will probably or hopefully correlate with her feelings for you.

I also want to address something Ginger said. I'm not criticizing her advice or statements in any way. I just want to add a thought to it.

I have said this before and I will say it again. I don't think it is ok to cheat. (my ex cheated on me in the very worst way). However, there are many offenses in a marriage both partners that commit that are hurtful and cause distrust. Cheating and these offensives are mutually exclusive. One does not make an excuse for another, but both can be very hurtful and take lots of repair. There are many ways to break marriage vows.

I hope I'm not coming off as saying his recently wayward wife is a horrible person who deserves no mercy or empathy nor that there isn't a single shred of truth to her complaints listed in her letter. I very much dislike the sin of adultery and I'm observant of what it does to the wayward spouses mindset for a time but that mindset isn't forever. So when I use terms like foggy selfish entitled wayward, I'm not describing, labeling or even branding the person forever tainted, but rather referring to their current mindset (that COULD become permanent if they don't change their destructive path). I'm not a believer in "once a cheater, always a cheater" because I think just about every human is capable of inflicting any number of sins, hurts and pains on other humans. It's our nature. But, all that being said, if we are to get about giving advice about address that "lots to repair" we need to be cognizant of that wayward mindset and what self and other destructive things it will want to do.

Coconut can address his side of the street and the issues and hurts he brought to the relationship, if any (wayward's can rewrite history and him saying it's the first he's heard about some of these complaints is a pretty good indication it's mostly cow chips), while also making quitting the volunteer job a boundary that's good for the relationship that's going to "take a lot to repair".

Maybe my only criticism might be that the above quote might imply that Coconut should endure her working with OM because he wasn't a great or perfect husband and there is more than one way to break vows in the marriage (as though you feel he has done that and thereby he should give her a break and let her do what she FEELS she has to).

That all being said, I, too, am sympathetic to Coconut and the fearful choices he has to make. I KNOW it's hard and I was very fortunate to have a situation that didn't require me to immediately state a boundary like this at the risk of losing my marriage. But when Ginger says this:

Again, I see people here telling you what you should tolerate and what you should not tolerate. You need to decide for yourself what you feel, and not how you SHOULD be feeling.

I want you to consider your FEELINGS but also realize feelings lie (just like they are lying to your wife right now). Consider instead what is right and best. Maybe that's a difference between a boundary and control. This isn't a FEELING of punishment or justice, rather it is what is right and best for your marriage for multitudes of reasons. It's best and right that your wife not hang out at that volunteer workplace with those people (mostly men) that all know what happened and most particularly around the OM and the best [recovered] marriages simply don't tolerate either spouse hanging around with anyone either one of them have ever had any sexual or emotional relationship in the past. So I say, for the most part, IGNORE or OVERRIDE your feelings of fear and chaos (the unknown) and embrace the unemotional logic of what is right.

In the end, my wife loves and respects me for everything I did to bust up her affair and save her from destroying herself and our family. I made her mad as heck sometimes and she swore she'd hate me forever but sometimes you just gotta say "I matter too". I certainly can't guarantee success, but chances are very high she'll come around. It's not like OM is an option (supposedly). Either way, you'll respect yourself more for undertaking my suggestions and advice no matter how this turns out long run.

[Wonka]

Stay the course and you'll be fine.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

For what it's worth, although I move the goal posts in my thread, I haven't said a word to W about R since MC on Tuesday. I recognize that I need to figure out what I want to do, I know I want to save M just need to figure out what the best path is to get there.

It's nice that Wonka stopped by to give you her counter-productive personal philosophies and non-solution oriented techniques (just wait it out and see what happens and try not to be so emotional because your wife is hurting and fragile) but it is my understanding that that really isn't consistent with the purpose of this forum:

The purpose of this site is to help you navigate through the solution-oriented techniques created by Michele Weiner-Davis that have been proven for over 30 years to save marriages. Her techniques are spelled out in the materials linked to this site, but most commonly on this board we are talking about Divorce Busting(DB), Divorce Remedy(DR) and Keeping Love Alive (KLA). Most of the folks here are familiar with one or more of these works, and while it's most helpful if you familiar with the techniques we will help you navigate them. This is not a peer-counseling site, it's a brainstorming solutions site. And yet, some folks will give you 'advice'.

My advice is consistent with the only professional that matters on this forum (though many other professionals agree). Here's an excerpt from one of her books..

THE UNFAITHFUL PERSON
If you are the partner who had an affair and your spouse still wants your marriage to work, it's time to push up your sleeves and get to work. Rebuilding trust and repairing your marriage is hard work, but it can be done. I've seen it happen many, many time. First of all, I want you to know that most people who have had affairs didn't mean to hurt their spouses. They often feel very bad about the fact that the affair has caused so much pain and wish they could turn back the hands of time. Although you can't change the past, you can change the future. I'm going to show you the step you need to take to get your marriage back on track.

STEP ONE - END THE AFFAIR

If you are dedicated to saving your marriage, if you haven't already, you need to stop the affair -- cold turkey. Affairs and marriages generally don't go together very well. If you want to rebuild trust, you need to start being trustworthy, and that means you need to stop having intimate relations of any kind with the OP. If you have become emotionally attached, I know this will require a great deal of personal strength. But the sooner you cut the ties, the better off your marriage will be.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you can just be friends or that the phone calls can continue because you're not having any face-to-face contact. NO CONTACT MEANS NO CONTACT. You need to tell the OP that you've decided to renew your commitment to your marriage. If this relationship has been satisfying unmet needs in your marriage, it will be eve more challenging to cut the cord, but you need to find healthy ways to get your needs met within the context of your marriage. I'm going to help you do that. I don't think you should stay married and be miserable. I think you should make your marriage great. Now's a good time.

Mrs. Coconut is fooling herself (and trying to fool Mr. Coconut) into thinking she can actually maintain some face-to-face contact with the OP and her letter described the unmet needs she's FELT in her marriage which she was obviously using OP to fill. It doesn't get any clearer than "no contact means no contact".

"Heartfelt"??? I'm stunned that anyone could actually read that letter and think it's heartfelt. It's more stomach felt IMO, as she hurled every emotion and feeling she could to rationalize and justify continuing to do exactly what it is she wants at his emotional expense (entitlement). After a year of real recovery she won't even recognize herself in the letter and she'll be calling herself a butt for writing it. Sure she's opening up a little about some resentments in your marriage that she's kept bottled up but she blowing them up and focusing on anything and everything she's ever catalogued that you've done to her to support her WANT to keep that job. Such feelings in no way justifies continuing behavior that will cause him to be resentful. They need to achieve "no contact' and get to work resolving and minimizing resentments versus creating more. IBecause I'm a believer in DB techniques and whole heartedly agree that you shouldn't stay married and be miserable. I think you should make your marriage great. Now's a good time to start.

[Ginger1]

This completely off topic, but I do have a question about something brought up on this thread.

I honestly don't even know what putting your spouse first or putting your kids first looks like?

i don't even get how you put one above the either. Sometimes kids needs come first, other a spouses, and most needs should be able to be met simultaneously , unless the needs of one or the other are ridiculous.

Like if my spouse said " honey, we really need to get away together without the kids " I'd be like " sure, let's arrange something" Yes, my kids would be without their parents for a few days but it would be healthy for our R.

Otherwise, I just don't get it.

[Coconut]

It's nice that Wonka stopped by to give you her counter-productive personal philosophies and non-solution oriented techniques (just wait it out and see what happens and try not to be so emotional because your wife is hurting and fragile) but it is my understanding that that really isn't consistent with the purpose of this forum:

And this is why I questioned your experience knowledge. I have to work through enough of my emotions in dealing with my sitch without someone bringing their emotions into my sitch for me to also have to deal with.

This is what I know, I know Wonka has read every word I've posted for the last two months, I know that she could see where my head was at, and I know she took her time to hit me with 2 x 4's to stop me from doing things that would have been detrimental to rebuilding my M. I know that someone that invested isn't going to intentionally tell me to do something that will hurt my M, and I'd rather someone who cares that much about my M give me the wrong advice, than someone who is not invested.

I am ok with giving me advice, and appreciate it even if I don't buy into it, but I am not ok with attacking of others because their advice is different. I don't think it is cool to attack others to make yourself look better.

For now, I'm letting things ride. If I met my W for the first time today, and she worked with an ex who she dated for three weeks and kissed a few times, I wouldn't ask her to quit. As long as I feel like she chooses me, that she wants to be with me, then I will believe that regardless of who she sees out and about, that she will only have room in her heart for me. It is widely agreed that a woman only has room in her heart to love one man, as long as her actions show me i am that one, then I will support her doing things she is passionate about.

[J5K]

Coconut

You're on the right path my friend and completely correct as long as you're w has love for one man and that is you keep the emotions out of it and continue to be the man she would never leave.

[Rose888]

This completely off topic, but I do have a question about something brought up on this thread.

I honestly don't even know what putting your spouse first or putting your kids first looks like?

i don't even get how you put one above the either. Sometimes kids needs come first, other a spouses, and most needs should be able to be met simultaneously , unless the needs of one or the other are ridiculous.

Like if my spouse said " honey, we really need to get away together without the kids " I'd be like " sure, let's arrange something" Yes, my kids would be without their parents for a few days but it would be healthy for our R.

Otherwise, I just don't get it.

It doesn't come up much, but say your spouse and your child both have performances or recognition ceremonies on the same night.

Or say you and your spouse vehemently disagree about whether to give your child anti-depressants.

Or say you are divorced and have fallen in love, but your minor children don't want to share a home with your new partner.