MLC vs Midlife Reboot

[Esame]

Ciluzen thank you for popping by my thread, I real appreciate it.

I hope you don't mind if I reply to your post here, it feels easier to combine that with what I've been reading on your thread.

Esame,

Its amazing what kids will pick up on and enlighten us with. Although my youngest is no longer a "kid" at 24, she opened my eyes to a somewhat similar thing with pursuing and distancing (that chapter scared me, too!). I spoke to her of my confusion after my financial meeting with H, when he told me I should not try so hard not to call him (as he was leaving). She basically told me that he seems to not like it when he sees that I'm actually doing ok and has a need to "suck me back in" by throwing me some tidbit to show he's still in the game, just to keep his feeling of control. In my case, after hearing that, it has helped me to detach. I'm still sad, but it made me realize that I am and have been being manipulated for quite a while...for whatever reason. Both of my daughters are still in contact with their dad (they should be) but have made me realize that I was in my own fog, just as you mentioned, and they are all for me to move on for now. They probably see more than I do, as he isn't trying to manipulate them (at least, not the way he does with me). Its a tough process for a family to go through...no matter what the age.

I'm still surprised at how different my husband is, and it sounds like you have gone through a similar experience. What you describe regarding him not being so manipulative the past must be a combination of him being different as he doesn't think he needs to be nice to you any longer and you seeing his true colours. Of course your daughter could see more, like you said he is not trying to manipulate them in the same way, and they are more observant than we are.

It is a shame that the men we spent years trying to make happy one day wake up with a personality transplant, but I can only look for the positives otherwise I will go crazy.

I don't know why that chapter is so scary, maybe due to the raw honesty? I don't know. It affected my thinking though, in many ways.
Take care x

[HaWho]

Hi Ciluzen - just checking in to see how you are doing? Take a study break and let us know. (See, I am the bad influence in the dorm. Ha ha.)

Thinking of you.

[ciluzen]

Thanks for checking in, HaWho! Yeah, you're such a bad influence. I think encouraging me to take a break is a good thing. I've allowed myself to get overwhelmed, which used to be out of character for me. Now it seems to be the new normal.

The "zen" in ciluzen comes from my nickname at work. I was someone everyone turned to. I was known to be calm, level headed,logical, and understanding in even the craziest situations. I had a go with the flow kind of attitude and was "unshakable". Then this happened. Everything I believed about my life, not just my marriage, has been shaken. My memories of events and people...all is questioned and re-questioned. He has brought up his memories of things and they are 180's from mine. I'm assured that he is getting it all wrong, but it is unsettling. I am still not past the surreality of this situation.

Its interesting, we have been going over an entire unit on memory. It has helped me to somewhat drop the rope. Mostly in learning about how false memories can be implanted or memories can be altered simply through talking with others about something and getting their input or suggestions. Did you know that 75% of cases reviewed and overturned through DNA or new evidence found were convicted due to witness testimony? That merely changing one word when talking to someone can alter your perception of an event YOU witnessed that they did not? For instance, asking "how fast was the car going when it SMASHED into the other car" as opposed to "how fast was he car going when it BUMPED the other car" actually affected the way the witness estimated the car speed in testimony. It was leading. Also, those memories are very hard to over turn once altered. Fascinating studies (look up "hot air ballon false memory study" or "lost in the mall effect"). Made me see how Bubbles (gossipy, judgemental, over the top in comisserating) could help break up so many marriages just by spending so much time on the phone with husbands who had typical complaints about their wives or lives.

Anyway, I'm experiencing some issues. Even little things now take me from 0 to 60 and into a panic attack where I shut down. I've never had them at all until this year. They are very scary...my mind will not work! And they take a few hours to recover from. My daughter talked to some people and gave me a recommendation for a very good therapist who i'm calling Monday. This is no way to be.I also hope to deal with my anger issues. Also a new thing.

Other than that, Im trying to GAL when I can, even if its going out for coffee briefly with a friend. I have to walk my dog a lot, so there's some excercise.I'm holding on to my A grades and this is my last week of stats. Yay! Then one more week 'til psych is done.

On the H front, I have a second mediation rescheduled for September, since we cancelled to meet alone together last time and that didn't work. 2 weeks ago when my friend and were leaving the river house, he called to ask me to open the windows there (he did not reply to my earlier text letting him know we were going there). That was the last time I have heard from him. He apparently had that week off on vacation as did Bubbles' family. Neither of my children have been up there since July. He is not speaking to D24, but D25 told me he is almost begging for her to come up each weekend. She only has so much time and has only been married a year, so she likes to be alone with hubby as much as she can. And spend time with her friends. How sad and lonely to be in that 4000 square foot house alone most times. He can't even put his boat in unless someone comes up to visit, and Bubbles' family is into sports most of the summer.

I texted him this week to try to arrange a time to sign papers at our bank to get him off of our joint account, but he never texted back. I need him off of the account, but I can wait until mediation to bring it up. We have to do it in person on the same day at the same branch, but not at the same time. I don't want to shut down the account as it is my checking and tied to my credit card. Too many things would be affected. It kind of ticks me off that after his "don't try so hard not to call me" speech he can't reply to an important (to me) text, but I'm not calling or texting again. I paid my lawyer a flat fee. I don't mind handling everything through her.

I do still read everyone's situations when I can. Its a rough journey for all, but it is so helpful to watch as people move forward, one way or the other. They all seem to be successes eventually, at the very least in finding their own strength. You all are so empowering in sharing your stories. Well, back to my study cave!

[AJM]

Hmm.. I read this and I'm struck by how you have different expectations than "what is". I can feel the anger toward Bubbles in your message.

I don't blame you, having been there. But I have a few things to suggest: Bubbles is not the prize. Believe me when I tell you - not the prize you're thinking. I know on an educational level you know that but it doesn't seem to have sunk in yet. That's a rat hole that can really ruin your outlook.

As for the memory re-do? Been there. It'll make you crazy if you aren't careful. Things get warped more than retold, but even those memories will change with H as time goes on. It's a weird trip to be sure. I really think it is a great idea to see a counsellor to talk it over with. Be careful when you pick a counsellor though - choose wisely. And know that you are the keeper of the memories. They happened. They were good, bad, and everything in between. But you have the memories and nobody can take those. Latch on to them and don't let anyone tell you differently about them.

People who "re-remember" often do so to fit the situation or feelings at the time. Nothing more than that. Don't believe that they don't change (again) or that they are how that person really views things. That can change too.

Try not to have expectations that he'll respond to any communications. Like a sullen teenager, they make things all about them and reply or initiate when it suits. Working through the lawyer ONLY helps calm that crazy, passive-aggressive behavior. And it helps to have a record that can be used, if for nothing else, for your sanity that what was said actually was. There will be much flip-flopping most likely.

Don't be surprised if it unsettles you. If it didn't, that would be really weird after all those years together.

Peace,

AJ

[Esame]

Ciluzen it sounds like your course is really interesting! Memory is such a minefield isn't it? I think I read somewhere that every time we remember something we revisit not the original event but the last time we thought of that event. So like "Chinese whispers" over the years a memory can change or evolve. Terrible isn't it? We cannot even trust our own memories.

I'm really sorry about your panic attacks darling. I hope you can get the help you need, and I'm sending you strength and hugs xxx

[ciluzen]

Thanks AJM, Esame for stopping by!

AJM, I agree with all you've said. I'm trying to not have those expectations. It was really hard for awhile there as I kept getting little breadcrumbs, whether they were intentional or not on his part, and I'd just eat them up. I haven't heard from him in weeks, my stats class is DONE (96% !!!) and I'm actually behaving like I used to in anticipation of my psyche final tomorrow (somewhat relaxed-my old "zen" self).

You're right, I just need to go through my lawyer on everything. I did reach out once by text while I was being a bit panicky (in general) and asked him to deal with us getting him off of the account, but for the first time...absolute silence. So, that also helped to drop that rope.

My next mediation is coming up. It will probably be our last. Two days after that I have an appointment with a new IC who was highly recommended to me. Here's a funny story...H's old assistant is her receptionist. We were friends when our kids were the same age(I even babysat for her for awhile) but we had drifted apart as our kids got very involved in different after school activities because we just never saw each other anymore. As I have said, all of our friends were somehow associated with his job or the people he worked with. As I was giving my name on the phone, she recognized me by my name (not voice)...we both started cracking up. Its not a problem though. To be honest, I would love to catch up. Just seems a little awkward on the surface. Oh well.

Esame,

I'm hoping the IC helps me with the panic attacks, although I think the stress of the classes with everything else was a big part of it. And I dislike math and that's a whole 'nother ball of goo. But I don't want to get into a 2 year program full time with even more stressors and not have the tools to deal with it. Its a THERAPY program, for Pete's sake!

The Chinese whispers idea of memory is interesting. My whole class has been interesting. I've taken psych classes before, but until recently I've lead a charmed life. This time, I could relate things to myself, people and events and get a whole new perspective (experience really does help with understanding). Unfortunately, it also helped me to understand how much my little oopsies in DBing helped drive him away when H would (possibly) be sticking his head out to sniff the air. The last time I saw him, when he made the comment about me trying too hard not to call, I really should have just nodded and said I understood or "ok". But no, I had to make a speech about how he knew how to reach me and that he broke my heart...Not the best way to let someone know its safe to be around you. Learning curves...

I start back to work next week and am so ready for that. I've been able to see both of my daughters recently and not dwell on H, so that's progress. It does make me sad, though that although there is communication between my older D and H, my youngest (with the anxiety and depression battle) has not heard from her dad for longer than me. All I could do was encourage her to reach out to him to just say hi and let him know she loves him. But that's sad. I know he told me recently that he can't care (about her issues and lifestyle) because it would "kill him". But that tells me more about him than her, and she needs her dad in her life even just a little bit. So that's sad.

Anyway, just checking in. I'm reading everyone's sitches and hopefully can post a bit...just to say hey and lend an ear or support, after this week. Boy, there does seem to be some drama on a few threads related only to the posters. Never thought I'd see that. Anyway, life is going on.

[AJM]

Yes, life continues even as events happen.

I disagree with the idea of 'Chinese Whispers'. It is an interesting theory, but what happened, happened. Re-remembering it is sad. While we do tend to see things differently or rather, from a different angle, that's not the same as the re-remembering we see here. The tell-tale sign around here is the gross re-remembering to fit the world as people WANT it to be. More specifically, the MLCr will warp space and time to fit their desires. It's a hallmark move and you can find it in the MLC for Dummies thread. Because that is how common that is.

Learning curves...

Yep! No rules, just learning. Seems cliché but it's very appropriate here.

Keep at it. You were right when you said it says more about him than anyone else. Keep that in mind often.

Peace,
AJ

[ciluzen]

Finished my other class...96% as well. I should use that in a lottery number stream or something. That and the number 17 that keeps occurring over and over in my life.

Accomplishment leads to self confidence boosts. I'm feeling pretty good right now. It may not seem like a big deal to some, but I was seriously afraid that I wouldn't be able to do this. I now feel that my longterm goal isn't quite so pie in the sky as I thought, especially if I can find a way to deal with any stress induced panic attacks.

And then, I was wanting to call people and share, but then my friends all remembered that I had a final and called or texted me! That's huge! Why? Because its been so long since I had friends that did that (years!).When my Dad died and I had to fly down while he was still on life support, my older daughter and H continued on to the Superbowl party at a friend's house. I spoke a few times to H while at a few airports listening to all of the laughter and talking in the background from the partiers. Only the hostess sent me a condolence card later. No one else really mentioned it from that group. Oh, how I've missed having people actually care about me. Its easy to see why I was not just in love with H, but so, so dependent on him as my best friend!

Along those lines, today I am very happy to just relax by myself. So, I'll call this my journaling post. Its nice to keep a record of where you're at in the journey for those days when you're not feeling so...steady.

My dance card for Sunday on is actually a bit full, which is nice. GAL without the stress of schoolwork hanging over my head! I do have to go back to work for a few hours each day this week, then full time next week. But I'm totally ready for that. The week after that is mediation number two. I'm not doing anything else toward that. I gave my L everything she asked for plus some, so its not taking up any more room in my head til then.

Still haven't heard from H, but have spoken to the two ladies in his office who have been very clear about wanting to continue our friendship despite the circumstances between H and I. I sold two more prints this past week through the office, so we've (the office ladies and I) talked a lot. I'm steering clear of talking about H with them and have let them know I won't set foot in the office, even though for some reason they keep bringing up that I should (even to the point of telling me when Bubbles won't be there).

Same thing with the girl's. Trying not to talk about their dad, but still asked if D24 had heard from her dad because it had been awhile. Yesterday she told me she had (I don't know if he made the effort or if she did) so I just said, "good". I hope she makes the effort to visit him, as well. D25 (almost D26!), although she has made it clear she doesn't want me to bring up H with her (her boundaries-I understand and comply) still brings him up in her discussions with me (his opinions or activities). Is it wrong to want to create my own boundaries with our children in regards to my H?

So, since I'm journaling, things that I'm trying to deal with...

a) D25 has been up to the vacation home a few times now to spend leisure time with H and Bubbles has been there (with her family) both times. I can't get D25 to understand that I would like some alone, leisure time with her (not just stop by her work for 5 minutes and hurry). It also makes me feel that both Bubbles and H are being rewarded by her for their bad behavior by her spending time there. I feel that she is making the effort to see him (four hour round trip drive) but can hardly fit me in her schedule. But I am happy that they are spending time together. I can't lay the guilt on her, though. Something to discuss with the new IC, I guess.

b) Certain phrases from H keep replaying in my head lately, although I'm getting more comfortable settling into life somewhat without him as I haven't had any contact for a month. One is, "am I holding you back?". Yes, in a way he was, but more I was due to my assumptions of what my role in our marriage was. It is now becoming clear to me how much I was holding myself back from doing things to make me happy for fear of not being thought of as a loving wife catering to his needs. I needed to reach my original goals that I had before I met him. I needed those things that made me feel happy and alive before I became "his wife" and gave up me to become "us". I was no longer the person he fell in love with...I was no longer me. His fear of being like his dad (controlling) and seeing me wrap my life around him to the point of losing myself was an astute observation that he voiced worry over immediately after D25's wedding...and right before bomb drop. And I truly believe now that he saw that (I sure didn't) and thought it was all his doing (it wasn't...it was me trying to be like his mom, who I now realize wasn't happy either).

The other phrase that keeps popping up in my head was said during our last big R talk, over a month ago. "I don't know what you thought we had" (relationship). That just hurts so much on so many levels.

No, I'm not dwelling on them, but they surface at weird times. One from the guilt, the other from the pain. Why do they just keep popping up out of nowhere when I feel like everything else is starting to get better?

[job]

Congratulations on finishing up your class...96%! You've had a lot on your plate and you still came away w/flying colors on the course. You should be proud of yourself!

I think you are wise not to talk about your h w/the women in the office. As long as you keep the conversations on other subjects, everything will be fine. I'm sure your prints are lovely and everyone appreciates the hard work you put into them. The ladies in the office know just what went down and continues to go down and I like the fact that they are adhering to the boundaries of keeping him and Bubbles out of the conversations.

As for your D25, evidently she needs the time w/her father and most likely accepts Bubbles as just a gnat that needs to be blown away. Maybe she feels that she can talk to you and/or see you whenever she wants and in her mind, it's not the same w/her father. I do hope that your D25 realizes at some point that "mom" isn't going to be right where she expects her to be when she's ready to talk.

We all tend to lose ourselves when it comes to the relationships w/our spouses. Life has a way of taking over and before know it, the hobbies and things that we use to love to do go on the back burner, i.e., for a later time when we have more time. At midlife, things tend to change for those who can't successfully navigate those life transitions and they discover they can't cope the way they thought they could and bang! They change and then the reflect back on life as it was. They tend to forget, that over the years, we all change, our focus is on work, family and home. They forget that they did the exact same thing we did w/our focus. You can't go back and recreate the past and the fountain of youth closed the doors on them as they continued to age, notice I didn't say grow up? That's because they haven't.

The crisis is a gift of time (as Cadet points out). It's our time to turn the focus back on us, dig out that list of things we set aside many years ago and start doing some of them. It's a time of rediscovery and you know what? You might just be surprised at how much fun you will have learning some new things/hobbies along the way.

As for your h, he's got a lot of growing up to do and I certainly wouldn't want to be in Bubbles' shoes. She's got to deal w/him and all the baggage he brought to the relationship. Will he grow up and mature properly? Time will tell. Until then, use every minute you've got to be happy and recognize that you are right where you need to be at this time.

[AJM]

Congrats on the school!! Well done.

Is it wrong to want to create my own boundaries with our children in regards to my H?

I don't think so. When my ex and her "friend" were living together, my son (then 11) brought him up a few times. I finally told him I appreciate he wanted to talk about what was going on in his life but that I would prefer to not talk about his mom's "friend". Bless his heart, he stopped and respected that. I do and did recognize that if he did need to talk about it, I would and a few times he did. It's a question of who's there for whom? Is he here for me or am I the parent that is there for him? Been my guiding principal for his entire life. My daughter as well.

Interesting about the thoughts that pop up. I wonder - were you happy when it was "us"? I ask because MLCr's have a tendency to warp things and if you're close, the warped sense of things is infectious. I do think you'll go over the items, but my advice is to limit the time you're willing to do the post mortem on the relationship. i.e. if an issue like that comes up in your mind, focus on just one and deal with to conclusion. Once done, don't go back but rather go to the next one.

Only YOU get to decide if your time together was real or not. I'm sorry to say you cannot trust his opinion of things even if they cause pain and have some ring of some sort of truth.

Most of us here heard the same things. Why? Because that's part of the process for the MLCr as they try to justify their choices. They re-remember things in a way that fits their picture of things. And like any good lie, it has a grain of truth in there.

I can tell you that I was an "us" to the exclusion of close friends. I did not prioritize those friendships over my family. When BD came, I contorted myself to the point of not recognizing myself. Until one day, I stopped that.

But I will say my ex said a lot of the same stuff (script). I have a friend that spent years soothing himself by cheating on his wife. It's all caught up to him now and he's working through it hoping she'll stay and they can build an authentic relationship. But one of the things he mentioned he did was convince himself that he "deserved" the OW because his W was <insert excuse here>. He recognizes that now, but did not at the time.

MLC? Probably a mild one if I had to guess.

My point is that you cannot trust the thoughts and excuses from H because he is trying to justify himself to himself. Not really about you. But you can decide what was real and what wasn't.

Keep at it!

AJ