WAS or what 7

[roist]

Previous threads recap

My last thread is almost full so I am starting a new one. I'll update asap. Thanks for joining me.

[mutatio]

Just stopping by to say hello, I am going to try to get on more often. How is your corner of the universe manifesting itself?

[Vanilla]

Welcome to your new thread Roiste

And thank you for looking in on me

V

[roist]

Thanks guys for dropping by. I'll update during the week.

[roist]

There seemed to be a change happening in my situation,iinme , in W or all if the above. It is subtle and I cannot even determine if it is good or bad.

For my part, I am pretty Ok. But my thoughts are not clear do hopefully by typing here I will get some clarity.

One evening last week I overreacted (internally)
to a negative interaction with W. I am sure my reaction was more due to me than her behaviour. We were at the table with our boys and I felt I was going to explode. I didn't want to be there, not like this. This built and built. I was beyond angry. I needed to get out of there. But I refused to give into an irrational feeling. Straight after putting my son to bed while W was putting other son to bed I went to the basement and exercised through it. It was either that or go somewhere in the car. I still don't understand what happened but maybe it had to do with me rereading all my threads.

This moment was very isolated and I rarely felt so strongly.It was definitely a FLIGHT reaction. In that moment I wanted out of there ad fast as possiblej However that is not representative of how I feel in general.


That moment made me realise that I had become too comfortable in our situation. I could not leave if I really wanted to. I have not taken the steps necessary to be able to do that.I am talking practical and financial stuff. I think that mentally and emotionally I could cope if W left tomorrow. And that c ould happen. I don't think it will but she could. I am not going to work towards that eventuality but I want to be better prepared.

When we are alone I often have something to do though I balance my availability. When I am available and interactions are poor I go do something else.

In the last week there has been more good conversation than in a long time. I appreciate this. It is nice. I am even getting chances to validate,though nowhere close to R talk . We are having good interaction, she is engaged, with good eye contact and smiles etc. In my head I am WOW what is that about? BUT whilst appreciating it, I am thinking it is no big deal if we can talk good. But it is a big deal. It just isn't enough for me. Earlier this would have been a huge step forward.

I appreciate having my W and everything she does. I appreciate going to bed with her every night. I appreciate the few quick kisses each day +good morning, good night, goodbye and hello). I appreciate the physical contact when we watch TV on couch or read in bed. Yes maybe these are crumbs or the last strands by which my M stands. My situation is going to be long so I appreciate this much.... without selling myself short for settling for this.

I have not explained myself fully but that will have to do for now.

I have run out of time.So i'll just mention my W briefly. My w started wearing a ring on the wedding finger more often. I think she should wear one all the time but I guess that is not a boundary I can implement at this stage. But it will be brought up if we ever get to work on this together.

She has also refound motivation for projects around the house, which is good.

I could be wrong but it seems that she either puts on the ring(show to others) or she is open to conversation (show to me) but doesn't do both at once! I observe the goods signs. Appreciate them even. But I guess I am past signs. It will take more.

One last thing before I go. Recently I bought a book about parenting it is for me and a parenting style that resonates with me. It is a great opportunity to discuss something that is important to both of us. BUTi have held back doing so. I don't understand why. At least it shows that I got the book for ME and not to prove to her I am trying to improve. It is curious that I have not used an obvious occasion to discuss something important.I need to reflect on my reasons for this further.

Congratulations to anyone who read all of that. Thanks for stopping by.

[roist]

I miss the edit button!! Typos apart, here are two quick precisions.

After I did my sport the night I mentioned above, we had good interaction.

I am still following my path of self growth . I'll update on that shortly. My focus is mostly on that, though I have started listening to some comedians at work instead of mostly self help stuff.

Best wishes

[Zephyr]

we will always be here for you and read all of your stuff.

I am glad that you were able to work theough your anger with excersize. in5hink that is constructive rather than exploding at the dinner table.

how is that fitnwss aspect going in general?

your wife is still not there. wearing the ring could be a sign to you or not. just remeber for years she didn't want to show you any hope for a.future, that is one common sign whether affair, WAW or mlc position for wifee...they just can't show you any hope....and it takes a looking time to reverse that position, it just does and it will not happen like a switch. you aren't forcing it so it is by her choice....thst is important down the line.

I would not view this as any particular sign. I would continue to focus on your so nothing approach (I was looking for that post the other day but it must have been lost). I would also try to perhaps find a.way for you two to have a nice night out soon. I understand the hardship to doing so. I think it will be worth it.

you are doing spectacularly.

[roist]

Thanks as ever Z. Recently when I copied different posts from my previous threads, a lot were yours. Thank you for this ongoing support. Strange you cannot find a post, because at the moment everything in all my threads is up on the board.

My fitness levels are not as good as I would like, but I manage to do stuff that fit people can do. I am generally tired and cannot shake it fully. But I do sport a few times a week even if I don't feel up to it. I have never regretted forcing myself to go!!

I don't dwell on such possible signs anymore. It was just a curiosity and as I don't share much anymore, I decided to see what others thought.

My W is free to do whatever she wants. I will be the lighthouse as best I can. If things slip further I can accept that but I may stop pretending to be a couple. If she wants out, she will get no resistance from me. If my boundaries are crossed I will act accordingly. I am definitely not forcing.

Thank you for the cheerleading.

[mutatio]

Just wanted to say hi. I tried to write something supportive but I'm just not feeling it. I hope you get what you need roist. Peace

[Zephyr]

how ya holding up?

it is scorching hot here and I love it. last weekend of soccer, so will have more me time...as I hope you are making for yourself.

vhhers!

[roist]

I'm OK thanks for asking. This week I have really made time for me, used mostly to go cycling but other stuff too. Slainte mate.

Mut'
Thanks for letting me know you still read my situation. I just wondered if you didn't feel like a supportive message because of how you are feeling now (your state of mind) or because you find my situation futile. I am just curious but you don't have to clarify.

My journey is going to finish well. How and when I don't know ...yet.

Hope everyone reading this has as good a weekend as possible.Best wishes

[mutatio]

It has nothing to do with you. I made an effort to post on my thread when I did not want to, after struggling to write a message I saw your thread and tried but could not get the wisdom to flow. I chose at that point to tell you the truth and not write a load of BS.

I love my wife but do not like her behavior. I tried everything I could for 15 months and went backwards. At this point I behave well but am not over being hurt. For that reason I have no profound insight. That well has run dry, hopefully it is not a permanent condition. Be well

[roist]

Mut

Some posters believe that lbs needs two or even three bomb drops before they really accept the reality of their situation. Once that acceptance is achieved the road is cleared for truly moving forward. I believe thatyour path is now clear and I look forward to hearing you formulate how you rebuild a great future for you. I am a bit excited for you and hope you can get excited about what lays ahead for you too.

As for me I'm plodding on. Am getting out of the house mire and mire. Am getting fitter and fitter, though still hampered by being tired. I an reading a book on connected parenting. I have started doing some of the recommendations,though only a third into the book. W has seen that I ordered book, as we have joint Amazon account. Neither of us mentioned it. I had thought about talking about it, but in the end didn't.Mainly because this book is part of MY path and not a ploy to show her I am working to improve. I am reflecting on this to be sure of my reasons and not to fall into bad communications for bad reasons.

I have had many more good conversations with W and she has been more open on a lot of stuff than of late. Whereas this is good, it is nothing personal.I haveoften been in awe of how she is communicating and wondering what that is about. Sometimes I am thinking this is great and get lost in that thought and enjoying the moment that I don't listen fully. I am working on that. But this type of communication is not constant.I appreciate it, validate when I can, listen as much as possible but don't let it fill me with hope or other emotions that cause me to alter my path.

When I gal, my W usually profits to do ironing, tidying, planning stuff foe kids/family. I get out of the house mostly for me as this life is not as full as I want. Part of it is to give her (& me) space and to show both of us I am not chained down by this situation. Sometimes I will stay out after a short gal just to read a chapter of a book. But mostly I am doing something with people.

I have two races coming up and some social events, including drinks after work tonight.

I am relooking into gratitude and appreciation. Also happiness. My.happiness seems to have slipped in recent weeks so I will go back to what I was doing. I think my focus came back to M and not enough on the good stuff!

Got to go. Thanks for reading

[Zephyr]

Woo-Hoo roiste...in my opinion, this is all really good stuff.

you have turned your life around in this overhal, still looking for cracks in yourself to fix and addressing these as you find them.

well done.

now, can I ask you, what have you been doing to....peh4aps....have some fun together? spontaneous is hard...I know, but doesn't have to be through the roof skydiving lessons or something.

weekend is coming, have a grest time out with drinks tonight!!!

[Zephyr]

as far as Facebook. you can look at whatever you want, wife won't know if you just click a specific page to see a specific quote or anything. you never know who you will find.

[roist]

TBH Z I still consider myself broken. I am not whole and I am not fixed. Those cracks are missing pieces. At the moment I have taped myself back together, whilst I work towards permanent healing. I am not being negative when I day that but fairly realistic.

That being said I am much better than before BD. I have taken responsibility for my own happiness, my R with boys and my life in general. I am aware of what changes need to follow. That clarity alone is worth tonnes. It means I can take specific actions instead of wallowing in not seeing why things are a problem. I could go on for ages but I am a better man than I was and I foresee greater improvements.

Amid everything that is off in our R, everyday there is something that is "on". Maybe I am s bit too closed/rigid but any time W is not receptive to my presence I either get busy or disappear. I have better ways to spend my time than with someone who doesn't want it. I am not cold about this but am fairly consistent.RResult is less poor quality time together plus W seems more active in suggesting stuff to do together! May only be TV series or jobs in garden but still.

I see a lot of potential but in essence my situation has not changed much in the last year and could remain stuck for years to come. Or it could fall into place or fall apart suddenly.Time will tell. For now I busy myself on my path, without losing sight of our path.

[roist]

Last week I spoke with a WH. He explained how he has not lived as a couple for years and they almost never do stuff together with kids. Always one or other. From what I gather they both have withdrawn from their M. He explained things so simply and eloquently that it was hard to fault his logique. I did fault it a little still! Maybe in his case but spouses are unconnected that they are both WAS. If there is no LBS it does seem that simple.But I know it is never that simple.

Anyway I mention him, not because of his situation.BuBut I wondered about how many WS think the same about their LBS here.Msybe being strong and not needy and everything else gives them the twisted logique that the lbs is OK and due to their mutual respect things will finish smoothly.

In my situation I wonder if "accepting"so little is being interpreted as being OK as things are. I will develop my thinking on this and share some info on our respective parents Ms. Hers live together but are not very together.Msybe that is an acceptable way to live and maybe W is willing to live that way for the sake of the children BUT I am not. I would have thought that my W would split rather than stay unhappy. I still believe that. But I am sure her parents didn't intentionally end up there either. I fear that more than separation.

I have seen some positive signs and some improvement in our R. All steps in the right direction. I know it is likely to be the last thing to happen but still no improvement in us as a couple. She is more invested in our family,our activities, our time but no affection. There is more closeness in terms of communication and even physical presence. Recently she has shown more initiative to what we do in the evenings when boys go to bed. She is more receptive to my initiatives. Maybe she realises I am not going to sit on a couch just to be with her especially if she is disconnected.Maybe a lot of things. Time will tell.

So far in the summer we have planned two long weekends away as a family.The first was my idea to meet a friend of mine. I was genuinely surprised how she went for this idea. Not that she did but more so how she did. Plus she is proactive at organising a week without the kids during the day so WE can work on projects in the house, including redoing our bedroom.

These things do not mean my situation is improving but still. Time will tell.

Yesterday I spoke to a woman. She is the mother of a WH. She hast fallen out with her son over his comportment and his neglect of his children. He has a young mistress! Her description of him was word perfect for many WH described here. But it was interesting to hear it from a mother.

I never mentioned my situation to either of these people though I know I could tell the guy if I wanted to. Only reason I haven't is that it is a small close nit community and I prefer not divulge private stuff . Maybe if we split I will but for now, hhere is where I share.

I hadn't even intended posting today!! Anyway thanks for reading. Best wishes

[Zephyr]

good morning from sunny chicago, the Kelly family is loving it!!!

it is getting on as a hot summer over here, but that is why ice cream and swimming pools were invented, right

roiste, i have a question that of course you don't have to answer if you dont want to. you last bunch of posts talk about how much better things are getting with your interactions with your sons, with your wife, spending more quality time together, more meaningful communication with her, you are going out more, doing more for yourself, doing an utterly magnificent job looking deep in yourself to fix those cracks....by what metric are you looking at your relationship and at yourself to say your situation is not improving.

i get the lack of intimacy, if that is what is being referenced as the standard.

what is your ideal here that you are evaluating the whole thing? is it how things were 20 years ago or something else.

I have read countless situations where after this burst in the marriage (whether it be affair, apathy, mlc, whatever) it becomes a new marriage...you can't go back to the way it was. even many heavy hitter vets on this site never return to the way it was because that marriage is dead and you are building a new one from scratch.

I often wonder about you and I, are we disappointed because our expectations are too high for what we think our marriage should be? I remeber seeing a post from starsky, not too long before his final post that said that his sex starved marriage was something that never got resolved. there are others with that same outcome.

I don't have any real answers. if I did I'd be the one writing the book;)

I just get a sense that I keep looking back from time to time and holding onto something that is long gone and it is holding me back from moving forward faster.

is it because I don't want to accept that things will never be the same, that i may never have sex again, that special favors will never happen in the middle of the night again...maybe, maybe not right. focusing on those thoughts ARE holding me back. I needed to spend more time living for anf enjoying what i do have instead of dying for something i dont.

your wife is moving at her own speed, it may not seem like is working on her...but i will bet she sees your improvements and deveoplemt and will continue to follow your lead. keep it up.

Glad you posted today, I wasn't planning on posting either;)

[roist]

I'm game. I'd prefer to quench my thirst with you by sharing a poolside beer, but I'll settle for answering your question.

Firstly I assure you that I am not looking back with rose tinted glasses and wishing to get that back. I am only looking forward.Obviously 20 years of shared history will form a part of the foundation but this is a new build to new specifications.

I think I have shown that it is possible to survive in a SSM. Sex is not the be all and end all of a M. But knowing it is not an option, that your partner is not interested and may never be is for me not viable. Regardless of the sex, all the lesser forms of physical contact are important too. Those plus signs of affection and caring. Even a demonstration of interest in me/my life would for me be a sign of improvement for US.

I don't think I set the bar too high to want these things. Maybe I could settle for less if I knew she wanted to be with me but was incapable of more. As it is I don't see that.

For the moment she is not capable of fulfilling these needs. I don't need her to immediately but for me affection, care, interest and physical contact are essential pieces to a fulfilling M.

I have set the bar high but not unreasonably high.

I hope that answers your question.

[Zephyr]

thank you for you response! your answer was along the lines of where I thought you were...I just wanted to see for sure

I hope you had a great weekend!

[roist]

Z,

I had an OK weekend, not as jam packed with fun as yours but still not bad.

I don't feel like posting much these days. I guess it is good that I don't need to. I am sure that down the line I will need help here but for now I am handling it OK.

Those improvement signs I kept mentioning recently. Maybe they were wishful thinking or over focusing on the positive. As long as they don't create expectations I will try continue to focus on that.

But it is sporadic or at least inconsistent and in between there are much poorer interactions/signs. I may be starting to care less.It is hard yo describe but in essence I have pulled back more from W. I am willing and able to occupy myself ALL the time rather than poor interactions and low quality time together. I think my W senses that and often a split second before I decide to go off and busy myself she initiates a conversation or activity together. What I am trying to say is that if W wants no time with me she can have that, but she has not.

There is changes in me, her and the situation

[roist]

There are changes in me, in her and in us. I honestly don't know if the changes are for the better or worse. In terms of us at least. Time will tell.

I am observing mini power struggles between us too. It is amusing as an independent observer, but I am not an observer. Anyway this is nothing dramatic but I am glad I see it for what it is. I could go on about this but the essential is that I don't let it escalate without being a walkover. If I was a puppet before that is changing.She gets her way if I agree and doesn't otherwise.

I may take a step back from here for a while. I have not been posting much on my own thread anyway. I try to help some newbies and support some: other not so newbies. I will do that again but maybe for now I will focus elsewhere in my life. I say that and still may come here often.But if not ye know I am OK.

Thanks for reading and best wishes.

[Zephyr]

keep the focus where you need to!

I love all that i have read from you, your attitude and your posotion.

keep exacting positives, yes if all we ever see are the negatives we will die miserable

I am very glad you have been helping the newcomers, you have learned a ton in the last coupke of years and these folks will benefit from what you have to say. they will understand if you cannot for a bit, we've all had to step away from time to time.

you know how to find me!

[roist]

Posotion?

Thanks for the cheer leading, Z

[Zephyr]

positivity - clearly a language issue

[roist]

There is so much I could post yet not much to tell ye all.

I realised lately that I had gotten TOO comfortable with my current situation. I had slackened off on preparing myself to be able to move on if required. Mentally I could but the practical stuff, not so much.

I told myself that I have time. Then recently I got that "fukc this shite" feeling. I haven't had it in a while but I have slowly gotten back there. Whenever that happens, I remember cadets question to many nrwbies as to what that would look like. Early on it was important to have an answer to that to be sure it is a DB way (not cold, resentful, hardened or vengeful).

But now I am relatively in control of such moods and furthermore as regards to W, it will look like what it looks like and that is that. I am not flippant about it but it will be about me not her.

What brought this on was a weekend away and I just didn't like this pretend happy families thing. I just questioned whether accepting this situation without a word was the right thing to do. I wanted to say that it doesn't suit me anymore. But I drank my STFU smoothy.

I was so worked up I didn't feel like going away this weekend as planned.W had wanted to go for longer than I can so I told her she should go without me. It is to her sister's so v doable on her own with the kids. Long story short she preferred to wait for me so we could go all together as planned. I do want to go together. It will be fun. One thing I have learned here is that there are times where what I feel like doing and what I want to do, are not always the same thing and acting on feelings/emotions is rarely in my interest.

Whereas I did not tell her to go alone with the: intent of seeing her reaction,i was interested to see what she would decide. I was looking forward to both options. Time home alone or time away in family. Whereas I will not mindread her reasons, I will admit I prefer she choose to wait for me than go without me.

Similarly there have been times where I plan to do stuff with the boys and she comes too, even when I say that I'll bring them alone if she wants to not come.

I don't understand her wanting all this together time without being really together. Anyway despite the lack of intimacy, this time allows more shared memories into our R.

I know I spoke mostly here about negative stuff. I guess I use this site to dump it here and not carry it around. But even when I have thoughts like I have had enough or I don't care if we split, it saddens me but does not cripple me like before. I feel stronger.

I also feel more in control of myself.I see certain interactions and realise that before they would have invariably gone much worse, as they don't trigger my reactions as much. Any time I get frustrated or annoyed it seems shallower and without the residual lingering negative feelings .

I can look at my W and see so much good to be grateful for and appreciate. I don't just see the negative.NNeither am I blinded by the positive. She is great but not perfect. It took this crisis to allow me realise how lucky I was to have had her in my life. This situation also allowed me rebuild my.opinion of myself. I deserve better than I have now. She does too. For now I choose to accept where we are but only as a passage towards better things. I will never, take for granted what I have and especially what woman I have. I truly hope I get to show that/prove that to my W, but regardless it is a lesson learned.

I have recently taken a step back from learning and given myself a break to just be. I will refocus on that shortly.I plan to make the most of the summer with my sons but also to put in place solid actions to improve my life.

I have decided I want to really embrace the gratitude concept further. I am thinking of buying 52 cards and over the space of a year send a written thank you to 52 people. My thinking is to start by asking who am I most grateful to and continue by the next most grateful the next time. I won't restrict myself to one a week but moreso however I want. Once a week seems like a chore. This is not a chore.

I am weaning myself back off this forum. Hence my posts are too sporadic for newbies to follow. Hairier times may lie ahead and I may need this support system like I did before but for now I have learned enough to cope without needing it. I then replaced that need with the urge to read and help newbies.I liked that but feel all the sadness and hurt here is not helpful to me at the moment. Anyway I repeat myself!!

Wow. Guess I needed to write and had more to say than planned. Thanks for reading.

[SH_]

roist,

Good to hear from you brother.
Quite an update and one I can relate to.
The complacency part, while feeling the sense that we must get back on the horse and charge forward. I believe it is a great crossroad in the journey, one that we will come to on many occasions.
May we choose wisely, and not stall for too long each passing of this fork in the road.

I love the plan for demonstrating gratefulness and my 2c is to say go for it. You can have an impact on 2 each day that you follow through.

The community will be here as you need it, as will the place to share the "negative" so that you can tuck it away and go out and live the "positive"

Keep on keeping on my friend. At the end of the path, there are good things for you, and you are preparing well to reci be them.

[SH_]

Reci be = receive

[roist]

Thanks SH for dropping by and offering support. I have a slightly different perspective on your crossroads in that I don't see any reason to rush through it. Sometimes we need to take a break and ponder before continuing our journey.

I like your latest update. I was going to drop by and basically say what I just said.

I am going to do a gratitude exercise. I just want to see what works best for me. At the moment the 52 thank yous seems the way to go. Glad you like it.

[roist]

A simple "trick" that I came across yesterday.

When feeling down, place a pen sideways into your mouth so that it presses back both cheeks. This forces the face to take a position similar to smiling. The muscle memory associates this with good feelings and may help improve mood.

Up until now I have exclusively listened to self improvement stuff in my native language (English). Yesterday I checked out some stuff in my adoptive language. I am nit being boastful but I am grateful to be able to do so. I would not be fluent in a second language except for my W. Thank you W. I would not be on a journey of self improvement without her either. I guess I should thank her for that too!

Anyway best wishes to anyone reading

[Zephyr]

hey brother...sorry I've not been able to write. this week was silly busy.

I liked your last update. I do. I'm glad the strained interactions don't affect you like they used to. being grateful for what you DO have really does go a long ways towards that...not even HAVING to pretend you're in a good place, because in actuality you are.

It really, really takes a long time for the resentment to melt away...speaking form wife's perspective. you are living life and imparting no expectations of her - no emotional pressure on her. it is hard to do, but you are showing her how to do it and showing us all that it can be done.

So I did get a package in the main yesterday. it was my birthday present from wife and the kids. it was a beer club package that she picked out. some different stuff in there, so will dip into that this weekend it was really thoughtful and something I will enjoy very much. She was upset about how long it took to get (almost a month).

I hope you have a great weekend!!!

[SH_]

Keep me posted on your gratitude exercise. i am looking for ways to keep mine mixed up so it does not just become a mundane habit without true feeling behind it.

Ah yes, the simple trick that I call the Pencil smiles. My d17 shared this with me back during my dark days and I posted bout it frequently with many others. She shared how a study of folks that used the pencil to make the smile found the cartoons they watched afterwards more funny than the other group who used the pencils under their noses the caused them to frown. Simple trick, but to this day, I will pull out a pencil, or just remember to put a smile on my face as I am walking along. It really does change ones mental attitude.

I appreciate your view of gratitude towards your W in spite of the challenge with the MR that you are finding yourself in the journey. Diamonds are really created out of great pressure, and you my friend are on your way to shining like a diamond.

May you enjoy some peace and joy this fine evening roist.

[SH_]

I have a slightly different perspective on your crossroads in that I don't see any reason to rush through it. Sometimes we need to take a break and ponder before continuing our journey.

And if you get a few moments, I would love to hear you expound on your thoughts for this. you have share great advice and I could use some now at my crossroads and impatience to get moving forward.
Only if you have the time my friend.

[roist]

Thanks for dropping by Z.

I'll write when I have some time.

Things are crap between us. Poor communication and interactions. I probably as much to blame as W. I feel the last two weekends away were wasted opportunities to connect. Connection can only happen if desired by the two of us. But I had fun. We built more memories and the boys enjoyed themselves.



I am not reeling anymore either, but then over time we accept things as they are.

I am OK and I am keeping busy.

Glad your present arrived and you liked it.

[SH_]

roist,

Thank you for dropping by my thread and sharing your thoughts and wisdom. I am pondering on it and will share back shortly.

You have shared so much sound and wise words in your story and with others.
I appreciate you following my story and sharing your support and wisdom.

I hope that you are doing well and continuing to put one foot in front of the other my friend.

[roist]

I am thank you. The only way is forward.

[Vanilla]

Keep my eye on you Roist.

I would love to see Roist with positive attraction for W, in that W sees him as the amazing man he is because he is proud of that.

Roist is a cAtcham, his W should be able to see that because Roist acts that way.

V

[roist]

The eye and advice of a wise woman is always welcome V.

I am proud of me. I am not yet amazing but a few more tweaks and I will be closer. My confidence has grown too. Confidence in me and a brighter better future.

I read somewhere that there are four aspects to being attractive.
1 physical. I am in pretty good shape with plans to improve further. We meet many other couples our age and frankly I am in better shape than most Hs.
2. Emotional. I am more in touch with my emotions and those of others. Where appropriate I am open with my emotions to W (except about us). I know I cannot emotionally connect unless she drops her walls but I just want to be truer to me. I am also trying to enjoy more and more stuff, which makes me more interesting/attractive
3. Intellectual.I am more up to date with current affairs, news and the goings on in other's lives. In groups I can not only fully participate in a conversation,i can lead them. That is big for me.
4. Spiritual.Without being religious I think I am on the right path here too. I have stronger values,and a belief in better times ahead. I know what is important.

I have many good qualities and a lot to offer a woman. I accept my imperfections and work on improving myself. I have a much improved R with myself.I like me and I am treating myself with love. Not in a selfish way but in a deserving way. I deserve to be treated well.

Maybe eventually I will have to walk away to have a more fulfilling R with someone else or just to not settle for this being as good as it gets. For the moment I choose to stay. This is a choice and no longer a need. That is an empowering difference. I love your signature.If my W is stupid enough to leave, I am smart enough to let her.

I am not sure why your message sparked this response but I guess in essence I wanted to say I am well on the way to becoming the man I want to be. Self improvement will be a lifetime project but I want to reach a certain minimum level (I have a few issues to sort before then). As I previously stated, I give my W this time to find herself. After that we'll see!

[albac]

Good for you roist,

It sounds like you are doing all the things I am trying to do myself.

This is a marathon not a sprint and we are all in it for the duration. How we will emerge at the end is yet to be determined but we will be stronger more confident individuals. Stay strong roist.

[Zephyr]

hey, don't forget:

5. good father and working to be better including reading up / improving parenting philosophy. you are spending more quality time with boys.

6. good provider. you work hard and have spent a ton of effort building a reasonably comfortable life for you and your family

these are very (Structurally speaking) attractive qualities in a man. often more important than what you physically look like - just saying...

[roist]

Yes the list of what is attractive can be added to. One thing many people overlook is "trying". Doing is better but trying should definitely get some recognition. I know the road to hell is paved with good intentions but I salute each and every member here who are trying to save a M a R or a family.

I just came across that 4 point list recently so I q
Quoted it.

[Vanilla]

Roist

Trying is a weak word, an excuse for failure.

Either do or not do!

Never try.

V

[roist]

Yes I agree V. I meant willing to give it a go, willing to fight for what you want, willing to go against the odds.

Trying and hoping are unattractive weak characteristics UNLESSfoklowed by real ACTION.

My intention was to say that it is admirable someone standing for a marriage when their spouse wants out. This is probably not attractive to WaS but I find it admirable. The real Brownie pointsthough are earned by how one stands and more specifically WHAT one does.

Thanks for clarifying my wording

[Vanilla]

Roist

One of the things I have learned and learned well as a result of DB is how important the words we use are in determining our attitude.

It makes a big difference self talk.

One of the things I noticed Roist was the tendency to faulty thinking. Woolly will make the difference between success and failure.

So what do you say that we look at that?

V

[SH_]

Roist

Trying is a weak word, an excuse for failure.

Either do or not do!

Never try.

V

Hmmm....Lady V sounds much like one of my esteemed mentors. A great Jedi master of a short stature and green in color.

"Do, or do not do. There is no try." - Master Yoda.

Very powerful and sound advice.

[roist]

I WILL be mindful of my choice of wording. I let my guard down a nit here but still I will add it to my action list.

All tips/observations are welcome,esp from master V. The force is in me!!

[roist]

I haven't been journaling much lately for many reasons. Mainly I don't have a lot of time and because I feel I am searching for something that can only be found within me.

As of late, I have let myself slip in many ways. There are many reasons/excuses for that but I accept that it is on me. By slipping I mean less GAL,less planning, less moving forward. With summer being pretty busy and kids staying up later etc etc I choose family time over other stuff.

Family activities have been good. But they highlight to me how much this is not how I want to live. I want more. Does that mean separation? I think thati have placed many blockers/restrictions on myself. I am going to work towards removing them and maximise my life within the constraints of living in a loveless M. I have done a lot and made some progress in the past but it is not enough for me.

I have been overtired the last week or so and when tired I think less positively.I know this, so I will see how I feel when I get passed this tiredness. This is also why I am taking the time to journal. To clear my head.

More and more consistently I just don't want to be around my W. I want to get out of the house, out of the bed. Looking objectively at this I know most of my issues are my own. Yes maybe due to my situation or to W but my reactions and thoughts are my own and I am responsible for them. I have allowed myself react with frustration to comments said while W frustrated.I should validate but I didn't.

I know I can support this situation. I am not sure that I want to. What I want to figure out is what I want to DO about it.

My current thinking that I will develop into an action plan is as follows:

1. Improve further my R with sons. At times my boys are headstrong kids and some interactions are not as I want. I have studied this and have idea.BBut I have let my W have too much control in the parenting department.This is logical as she wasn't working and now works school hours, so she is with them most of the time. I know I can be a better dad and could cope on my own.

Whether self imposed or not, I want to change my supporting role to a leading role. I have eased towards that but have noticed W is not ready to give up her "control". This is my interpretation.

I have planned stuff to do with kids, but often she wants to cone too. I don't understand why as that would give her a break from them and me. Anyway that didn't bother me, but maybe I need more alone time with them ( individually and together). If so I will let W know I want more time alone with them

2. Explore what I want in my GAL activities.Sport is one thing and I have integrated it somewhat,but I don't have the energy to do more St the moment. I will find a way to get more energy and set some objectives for next year. This is not putting it off. I want something big enough that it will take that long to prepare.

I am more hungry than ever to meet new people so I will explore that too.

I want to try new stuff. Maybe not take up a new hobby but do some new activities .

If W leaves I can easily picture me doing loads of stuff. Some cannot be done now due to time constraints and preference to spend time with sobs. But if that happens I am a little excited about prospects.I am questioning what more I can do now without separating too. I am not going to wait until things get better or worse for this.

3. I have lost my motivation for my business. It is no t exactly what I want to do. It will be hard to work for anyone else now, but it may be necessary to have the life I want.I have turned my business around and have enough work and assured money to meet our basic needs and then some. But to really earn well I need to put it first, work harder and longer. Whereas that does not frighten me, it is not my priority now.

I have time to decide this and want to choose something that will be interesting for me to do.

This could enable either of us to move on a separation.

4 shortly I will revisit previous action plans and goals and refresh and adjust in function of where I am now.

Thanks for reading this long long post..... again. I would just say that although I may come across as being near breaking point, this time I do not see it like that. When I had to weather the inappropriate friend and early on I was near breaking point. This feels calmer and more so as breaking through point. I could write more but I gotto go work.

Best wishes.

[mutatio]

Thinking of you brother. I hope you get what you need. All is well by me. I don't have a lot to say anymore but I will say this, when the dust settles it all starts to make sense. Be well

[Zephyr]

I am sorry I have not been posting either. I have actually been thinking about your long post all week and how I would want to respond.

honestly i think there is so much truth of your pain in there it is hard to ignore.

as long as you love your wife, you are not in a loveless marriage. love from one can carry a marriage for a long time.

the big question that you have touched on for many many months and have finally come out and asked is if this is what you want to do, to try ro save this marriage?

I believe that we must struggle with that for our own sake. is she worth all this bullshit and pain? are my kids? do I want to be lumped into the group of a-hole fathers that abandon thier families even though you are not and have been the one carrying the torch for so long. maybe that is unfair but it is a reality of the choice to leave. we have to see it through, right?

all those issues you have talked about, relationship with the boys, work / business, gal, self improvement, goals...those are all basically independent from your wife zone that is all on your plate no matter what you chose to do with marriage.

I am glad you see all that and plan on ratcheting back up a bit. you are tired and boy do I understand. you are lonely and your brain is trying to protect you from more pain. you are letting go of her. that is wonderful to hear (might be sad to read, but I believe it is a good thing).

nothing is going to change without a shift in dynamic. I am not a fan of a guy going half-cocked ultimatum mode. no I think he must actually get to the point of being done before he is ready to walk.

some people think it is appropriate or rather good form to discuss ready to walk when you are say 90% done to actually give her a last chance to making a change. I am not sure that it is effective if you are not 100% done and ready to move on. I do think that it is more fair to her, but it has to be genuine and not just another way for a try to control the situation.

uugh that last paragraph came out wonky. oh well.

roiste, i think you are right where you need to be. and can continue as long as you want. if you did not question yourself from time to time I would be more worried.

try to take some time to give yourself a beeak...treat yourself to something fun. I kniw the slog gets us tired but the gal does help. it does. it helps with the moods and our energy level.

bro hugs!!!!!

[roist]

Mut' thank you for taking the time to drop by and touch base with me
I was glad to see you post and will be in touch on your thread shortly. I would have preferred you to come back and see me in a better place or at least a different one. Anyway it is as it is.

Z, I love your ongoing support. You have helped me through many a difficult time. I want to reply to your words but I need to journal first. I would appreciate your thoughts again, even a short one if you do short!!

[roist]

More of the same or turning point? Time will tell but anyone with comments opinions please feel free to share.

At the end of July/ start of August, we shared several weekends away in family and worked together s bit on our house. R was not strained but not connected either.

The more time we spent together,the less time I want to spend together. Essentially we are physically sharing the same space, sharing responsability for sons. I for one enjoy my time with sons more without her (at least like this).

Anyway the last two weeks I have an internal battle going on. I am certain this: s not how I want to live and so much so that if: cannot sleep I cannot stand being in bed with her. So I get up and watch TV or better still the stars. Man the sky is lovely on a clear night.

Sunday night I not only left the bed, but also the house in my car. It was 1 am. She heard the car which woke her. This was a risk and not deliberate but I didn't overly care.I don't think I was being passive aggressive,iI just wanted to get out of the house for me.

I went to a calm country road and parked. Watched the stars and then read some R/M stuff. I think by leaving I put myself in a position that would force me to decide my path.

I decided that my path was with my family and I would continue my work on self. I still have to determine how to be with W, but for now I am a bit too tired to care. I am not resentful or cold, but just not interested in how things are.

Just before going home that night I checked my phone and saw W had tried to contact me just after I left. Shortly after I got in she came to wonder what I was at. She found my action irrational, to which I validated. She was right.My W did not push to know what I did, why or where so I didn't say. I just said I wasn't sleepy and took some air.

If my W did the same I would not be happy. Shortly after we went back to bed she got up for an hour or so. I tried to sleep so I left her. The next morning I apologized for having woken her. I worked on a DIY project for the morning and we went to the beach for the afternoon.

Last night I had hassle with our youngest at bedtime. She stated I should pass the relay or ask for help in such circumstances, as I AM NOT ALONE . I really bit down hard not to react to that one. She is right about the relay/help part as I do tend to try to be as self sufficient as possible.

I could see my W trying, as I have many times before. Trying to what I don't know. To keep things as they are?

She asked about if I wanted to go to her sister's this weekend. I didn't for many reasons. I explained these with the exception of
Not wanting to play happy families. She asked if I minded her going. I said no but I would probably do something alone the following weekend with the boys. This was not vengeful but just how I felt.

Maybe we are building up to putting words on our woes. Maybe it is just another dip in the roller coaster. I am writing all of this to have views on my behaviour and path. I accept I cannot control this aspect of my life and I place faith in that this is leading to a better place.

Although I would prefer to spend the weekend with my boys, I am so looking forward to the weekend alone. It is exactly what I need.

I am very tired writing this so I hope it is coherent. I had a busy weekend with lots of socialising so the tiredness isn't all due to Sunday night.

[roist]

i Zephyr,

Thank you for your reply and for taking the time to think about my situation before sharing your appreciated thoughts. I will now reply to your points in the order you expressed them.

Yes there is pain and truth. Thank you for seeing that. I read somewhere that when we feel bad, that means that our path is not aligned with our destiny. I take light from that. I am meant to have a happy fulfilling life and R. I know this and this will be. I choose to give every opportunity that that R is with W but have decided to not force that. Garth Brooks sings a great song about unanswered prayers being often the best gifts. Time will tell.

I am not sure I love her anymore. I choose to love. I choose her. Is that the same? Isshe worth it? I think so, but not like this. At the moment NO. To be fair my W is carrying our family too. The disconnection between us, has pushed me towards a holding strong position for my boys. But my W has always been there doing what needs to be done, in the best interests of us THREE. So I am not carrying the family. The best I can claim is to not have exploded it despite personal pain.

Yes all the other stuff is just that "other stuff" and is part of my life and independent of my R with W. I fully accept that and work on them as such. They will be with me regardless of what the future holds. I still think it is healthier if the are balanced with a healthy R. I don't have a good R and have limited control over that but the rest is within me to improve.

My post seemed to be me outining my problem and then the solution.I followed my own advice and in the week that followed I did four sport activities, listened to self help videos (mostly gratitude, self talk) plus some music. I also organised some stuff for work, had good times with boys, got out of the house twice to meet people alone and twice socially as a family.

Am I letting go? I have let go trying to control the outcome. Have I dropped you famous rope. I don't think so. I think W is still on the other end too. I have given her enough space and slack to go whatever direction she wants. I am ready to cut the rope if it is somewhere I don't want to go. But if I tug on that rope or if I push on that rope, W remains constant. This is just an observation.

Hopefully the dynamics are changing.My distancing, lack of interest etc are not specifically to change the dynamics to improve us, more me moving away from what we have.

I am tempted to talk to W. To say this situation does not suit me. I am even tempted to say it without a backup plan. But I agree in general with the principal of talking by actions not words. That being said, not talking feels more like avoiding and avoidance is a past trait I want to remove. I don't want to hide or run away. I want to face this head on. Even Michelle talks about raising warning to: ultimate defcon before walking. But she was more so talking in terms of WAS and not LBS.

Thanks again Z

[Zephyr]

Even Michelle talks about raising warning to: ultimate defcon before walking. But she was more so talking in terms of WAS and not LBS.

Thanks again Z

I will respond more later, but I just wanted to acknowledge I've read and have one quick thing to say.

in your situation right now, do you really think there is an actual distinctly between LBS and WAH?

those feeling you are feeling now, your wife likely felt for a long time as she built her walls / creating distancw as you are doing now. you have help, you have knowledge and tools and you are aware.of this dynamic. maybe this is a look into what wife could have gone through idk.

food for thought and maybe some compassion for yourself and for your wife. you know I don't do short well, but really have to go...have meetings like crazy today. I will try ro elaborate my thoughts betteregarding when I get the chance.

I know all you typed is hard and it took real courage to say it out and get it out there. I applaud you!

gotta run, more later

[Zephyr]

*distinction, damned autocorrect

[roist]

I look forward to hearing your other thoughts. I have often pondered that. I feel like lbs and was. Yes this gives me insight into her world.I see her pain and understand it. This has helped me not be so hard on her.

I imagine her feeling like me and am impressed she is still here. Her reasons are her own, but she has stuck it out. It probably helps that she has mastered detachment!!

[Cadet]

I look forward to hearing your other thoughts. I have often pondered that. I feel like lbs and was. Yes this gives me insight into her world.I see her pain and understand it. This has helped me not be so hard on her.

I imagine her feeling like me and am impressed she is still here. Her reasons are her own, but she has stuck it out. It probably helps that she has mastered detachment!!

More than likely she mastered depression.

I agree that the LBS eventually becomes a WAS.
I sometimes think that when MWD writes, she is talking to the LBS when we really think she is talking to the WAS.

Just my .02

[roist]

Thanks cadet. That one line makes a huge impact. Having someone else notice she could be depressed is good. I avoid labelling and essentially that changes nothing in real terms, except somehow it does for me.

As for your other point,are you suggesting I should raise my warning to Max and let her know she is losing me? I imagine most of what Michelle wrote is for lbs as we are mostly her audience. The defcon alert was I think in relation to WAS who's lbs never knew because they never understood the messages/warnings.

[Cadet]

As for your other point,are you suggesting I should raise my warning to Max and let her know she is losing me?

No I am not really saying that, because I doubt she would listen or hear you.

That is why your comments about actions instead of words lets me know that you already know that point.

I wish their was an easy button but I have not come across it yet.

[roist]

I thought so, but never hurts to check. Thanks again.

[Zephyr]

good morning bro.

sorry so quiet, have had virtually no time to sit and type

when i read your post the other day i had lots of thoughts about what it meant to let go and what does giving up on this really look like.

I reread your post again this morning. something jumped out and maybe want to talk about that instead.

you highlighted a statement from your wife saying you are not alone in this. I am curious (because I have been guilty of this in the past) of how closed off from your wife you have really been, not just now but throughout your marriage.

how often have you just plowed through a task when it could have been easier to ask for help...when asking wasn't even an option in your head.

how often have you just gone and did something because you just felt it needed to be done, didn't wait and had wife say something like, oh I was going to do that or fix that or whatever.

how often have you held back your feelings from her, as opposed avoid a conflict or in order to not make a big deal about something.

these are just a few examples, but they show a pattern of you building an emotional wall up between you and your wife. we talk her all the time about the walk away spouse feeling hopeless and alone in the marriage for years and finally they build the walls.

when two people have these impediments and hold themselves back from more harm, there is little hope without a physical separation for this interaction to change, right.

so how does this ever change? well I'm glad u asked

one person has to make themselves vulnerable and start to open up, start to welcome intimacy otherwise the other will never try anymore, because they feel they've already tried all they could and all they will ever see is the stone wall, the unresponsiveness, the closed off attitude, the one or two word responses. They see us as unapproachable and MUCH THE SAME as it has always been. It just reinforces the ‘things (he) will never change’ sentiment that likely started the detachment for the WAS.

the fact that your wife opened up just a crack and told you roiste, you are not alone, that made me cry. not because of how alone you have felt all this time. no, that is something different, no...because your wife showed you a little bit of openness and honesty in an effort to connect with you / work with you / share with you. Maybe you could find a way to do the same, with asking for help or doing something together that you would have historically just done by yourself. We are building something new here, maybe try something different...can you do that?

It may have felt like a criticism of your behavior. It may have come off as a complaint. Did you feel angry when she said that to you? IMHO, Anger in this case would be a response of score keeping on your side. Maybe it is frustration or whatever. Those are your feelings and you should acknowledge them and allow yourself to feel them, right…just not control your actions unless it is constructive.

This is my take on this and yes there is some mind reading going on, and as always I could be way off base

The second piece that struck me was your comment that you don’t even know if you love her. This is something only you will ever be able to know. Maybe you could work it out by describing what you think love is, and how that differs from how you feel about her…or maybe even by describing what you think is missing in your feelings for her, for it not to constitute as love. I don’t know that you need to post this stuff back to us all, maybe as an exercise with yourself to help work out your feelings…or maybe a trip to the IC to help sort this out (This is exactly the kind of stuff I work out with my IC). It is very personal. Very deep stuff that I would not blame you if you needed to keep offline.

I do think that is something worth looking at, is it that you don’t feel IN LOVE where or you just don’t hold any feelings at all? I think this is something that the WAS deals with for a long time, emptiness…lack of longing or desire…lack of satisfaction with a relationship…lack of fulfillment, where finally they decide that they are no longer in love. If this is how you feel, and you are entitled to your feelings it might be worth looking at the why, and what you want to do about it. Is your wife losing you...are you ready to be done...is she actually ready to hear you. i don't think she is done 'cooking' but she is starting to look at things a little different than before. if now you start to push for more, she very well will get defensive and withdraw.

Ok, so I’ve gone on and on again and I have to get back to work

-----------------------------------------

so honestly i typed this a few days ago and it felt awkward. i have not had a chance to smooth it out. I do think there are two thoughts in there and i don't think they are necessarily contradicting themselves, i think both thoughts are worth looking at.

My biggest take-away from this...that i never got around to was that your focus on you needs to intensify. you finding a way to meet your own needs of companionship and fun should be a focus for you. i know you've gone out for beers a couple of times, what else have you been doing to work on forging, growing interpersonal relationships outside of the house and workplace...have you been making new friends or improving existing ones?

Again sorry for the lack of continuity in the thoughts....this was typed over multiple days when i had a few moments of alone / quiet time. (school started last week so schedules are extra full).

(((Roiste)))

[roist]

First off thank you for the time and effort you put into this. It means a lot to have someone else make time to help me/support me. All along you have gone beyond simply supporting me.

I will reply to your words shortly but wanted to acknowledge having read them and appreciate them.

Since my looonnngggg post I have recentered myself and I am pretty okay. The way I see it is if my W felt/feels as bad as I did/do I want to not give up on her. It is a lousy place to be. I guess I am feeling empathy and compassion instead of frustration and despair.

I know that probably rings of codependency but I don't think it is. I would love to fix her and make her happy but I accept I can't.This is more about me being who I want to be and being empathic is part of that new me.

I'll expand on this when I get the chance. But I actually am doing good.

Thanks again

[SH_]

My dear friend roist.

Just checking in on you and seeing how your gratitude project is coming.

And to roist,

A quick question for those of ye tuned into the gratitude attitude!. I wanted to bring mine a step further and actually send people thank you cards.

But three people on my list are W and her parents. For those who have not read my thread, I am still with W but R is minimal and we are glorified roommates with kids.

My q is is this a good idea? I don't want it to be viewed by W for anything more or less than what it is, me saying thank you. I can decide about W myself, but am unsure about her parents. I have reason to thank them.

To clarify I intend sending 52 cards in total over the space of a year.I am unsure of how to explain to w, why I am doing this. Most of ye will understand the benefits of being grateful and appreciating life.

Even in writing this I realised that I need to do what I want to do. But instead of erasing I'll leave it out there if anyone wants to comment.

Thanks

I know you answered your own question, but I believe, that gratitude does not need to be explained, nor justified.
Do it for you and no matter what the W or her parents think. Gratitude like forgiveness is for you and when it is sincere, no judgement, not reaction will matter.
Just my2c my dear friend.

[roist]

new thread in mlc section

I appreciate my time here in newcomers and am thankful for all the help and support received here. I am not leaving here, but feel maybe it is time for a change.Feel free to pop over to see me.

I will answer recent comments here asap.

Best wishes

[SH_]

Very interesting......mlc eh?

I will swing by to keep up with you.

[roist]

The group over there are long timers and even if W may not be full mlc I wanted to chat with others who have stood longer than me. Maybe the change will get me posting again: n my thread.

You will be most welcome. I will reply to your recent question too!

[SH_]

I like your approach to seek out wisdom in a different room.
It reminds me of something I heard once.
If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.
Going to MLC will give you some different perspective for your journey that you can learn from.

You appear to have found some good feedback and shared some good insights over there.

Do be sure to focus on you and do share the good times and thoughts you have to main again balance with the difficult stuff.

You are one tuff dude and your example and persistence are things that I admire and hope to be able to emulate in my own journey.....

I'll catch ya in your new digs

[roist]

Thanks SH. To answer your previous question I am still pondering and formulating my gratitude card project. Maybe 52 is ambitious but I think I will send a good few at the beginning and then once a week !fortnight.

I was hesitant for several reasons but one was that it ressembled the act of someone suicidal near the end. Or at least brought back a similar concept I had during darker days a few years back.

I am taking my time because I have a lot on at the moment and prefer to do it right than regretting a rushed job. But I will start St the latest by the American thanksgiving.

Zephyr I will reply to your recent thoughts too before leaving hete

[roist]

Sh yes I like to seek out other wisdom, but I would not go as far as thinking I have outgrown those here. There are many wonderful wise folk here, that I value. Without being here, I would not have followed the same path. I simply would not have been able to. I will not forget that and will pay it back if I can.

[SH_]

roist......
Please don't mis interpret my quote about the room....
It is not about out growing it....
nor is it about the help you can offer to the others in this room...

It is about your opportunity for growth....

It was said to me as I tend to feel more comfortable in the room where I am looked to for knowledge and help....
I justified staying in that place as my way of giving back.
The point to me, was, don't forget about your own growth.

Come back to the room to visit often and help those that are working to upgrade their own room, but, be sure you go to the room with those that can help you grow.

roist my friend, you deserve the opportunity to grow, and in that manner you will be even more equipped and better able to share here with those that you will pay it back to.

Don't over think it....
You know what I mean here...
Please accept the encouragement and wisdom I am sharing with you......


“Gracious acceptance is an art - an art which most never bother to cultivate. We think that we have to learn how to give, but we forget about accepting things, which can be much harder than giving.... Accepting another person's gift is allowing him to express his feelings for you.” - Alexander McCall Smith

I have seen the advice to you in your new room to do more for you.....
Accept that gift..cultivate the art of accepting this, my dear friend.....

[roist]

SH, no worries. I took it that way. I just wanted to clarify my feelings. Best wishes.

[SH_]

You are a good man my friend ...

Would you do me a favor?

Articulate a post over the next week that expresses joy, fun, exuberation of an activity or state of mind after engaging in something that is all about you.

What is it that roist, my wise and solemn friend, does that excites him and turns the energy in his mind body and soul into that of a child like state of euphoria?

I am curious to hear......

[roist]

I'm game.

Recently I took part in a sports event that involved running, kayaking and mountain biking. It is in teams of two. I did it with a friend from the neighbourhood.

It starts with a short fast run. I like that and although far from being my fastest, I was right up there. Then the kayak on a river. Water level was low so you had to pick your course well to avoid the rocks. There were some rapids too. It was tiring but fun. Plus we laughed with fellow competitors along the way.

Then there was a tough off road run followed by an hour of mountain biking. We finished in the top ten but doing it was worth much more than the placing. There is a great sense of comradery between the competitors. Plus I got to see many people I don't see very often.

The event is finished with a meal together, sharing food, a laugh and a beer!!
Times like that I forget completely about my situation and live in the moment. If you are overburdened by stress and worries, go mountain bike king. It works every time.Because you are forced to focus or you fall/crash!!

I was in my moment and although focused on the race, I did momentarily think about W........ each time I saw her and kids smiling at us at different points during the event.

After the meal I bought raffle tickets and gave one each to our sons. Last year they gave out that I didn't bring home the prize!!This year WE did.

[SH_]

I'm game.

Recently I took part in a sports event that involved running, kayaking and mountain biking. It is in teams of two. I did it with a friend from the neighbourhood.

It starts with a short fast run. I like that and although far from being my fastest, I was right up there. Then the kayak on a river. Water level was low so you had to pick your course well to avoid the rocks. There were some rapids too. It was tiring but fun. Plus we laughed with fellow competitors along the way.

Then there was a tough off road run followed by an hour of mountain biking. We finished in the top ten but doing it was worth much more than the placing. There is a great sense of comradery between the competitors. Plus I got to see many people I don't see very often.

The event is finished with a meal together, sharing food, a laugh and a beer!!
Times like that I forget completely about my situation and live in the moment. If you are overburdened by stress and worries, go mountain bike king. It works every time.Because you are forced to focus or you fall/crash!!

I was in my moment and although focused on the race, I did momentarily think about W........ each time I saw her and kids smiling at us at different points during the event.

After the meal I bought raffle tickets and gave one each to our sons. Last year they gave out that I didn't bring home the prize!!This year WE did.

Now this...
this brings a smile to my face.
It is good to envision you in moments of joy and fun.

I continue to pray for you my friend.
I pray that divine inspiration may settle in for your W and you so that the calm and peace of a solid love may blossom.

Thank you for sharing...I needed to hear a good experience.

[roist]

Z,

I am replying to your comments about my wife stating I was not alone. Better late than never!! If that made you cry, the week after if I had posted would have broken your heart!

Back to your words first. My situation is complicated and never simple to read. My W has said similar at various times throughout this. Maybe it is me. Truly I could be: incapable of doing what is needed. But it is: impossible to build on any such statements. I search and if there is a way I will find it. Until then I will not he crushed by not succeeding.

Maybe that will be my downfall, but I think both of us are unhappy with the current interactions/situation and we are both still here. She is a WAW who has not walked away. Without getting sidetracked I get back to my point.

My W is home with me every night. She does not engage in getting busy so that she is not available for me. Any and every time I have asked if she! Wants to do something together, it has been yes. She has been active in finding us couch based activities. I don't want to be just a TV buddy but still. My wife systematically takes a position that lets me approach closely and we always sit close. She could move a few cm and I would be blocked at distance by her feet.

Now for the sad part. The week after her not alone comment she got annoyed because I couldn't thinkof something for us to do one evening. I have been meaning to prepare a list of suggestions in such situations but for no good reason I have not done so yet.

I was just saturated and "not like this" was my mindset. I know this is not helpful but! sometimes we do what we can and that is it. Maybe there was no way to capitalize on this, but at the time I was more concerned about me.

The beer I had earlier is clouding my.thinking so instead of waffling I prefer to stop and retake it later

Z, you raised many other points I hope to reply to, for tonight I raise a final bottle to you. Cheers mate

[roist]

good morning bro.

sorry so quiet, have had virtually no time to sit and type

when i read your post the other day i had lots of thoughts about what it meant to let go and what does giving up on this really look like.

I reread your post again this morning. something jumped out and maybe want to talk about that instead.

you highlighted a statement from your wife saying you are not alone in this. I am curious (because I have been guilty of this in the past) of how closed off from your wife you have really been, not just now but throughout your marriage.

how often have you just plowed through a task when it could have been easier to ask for help...when asking wasn't even an option in your head.

how often have you just gone and did something because you just felt it needed to be done, didn't wait and had wife say something like, oh I was going to do that or fix that or whatever.

how often have you held back your feelings from her, as opposed avoid a conflict or in order to not make a big deal about something.

these are just a few examples, but they show a pattern of you building an emotional wall up between you and your wife. we talk her all the time about the walk away spouse feeling hopeless and alone in the marriage for years and finally they build the walls.

when two people have these impediments and hold themselves back from more harm, there is little hope without a physical separation for this interaction to change, right.

so how does this ever change? well I'm glad u asked

one person has to make themselves vulnerable and start to open up, start to welcome intimacy otherwise the other will never try anymore, because they feel they've already tried all they could and all they will ever see is the stone wall, the unresponsiveness, the closed off attitude, the one or two word responses. They see us as unapproachable and MUCH THE SAME as it has always been. It just reinforces the ‘things (he) will never change’ sentiment that likely started the detachment for the WAS.

the fact that your wife opened up just a crack and told you roiste, you are not alone, that made me cry. not because of how alone you have felt all this time. no, that is something different, no...because your wife showed you a little bit of openness and honesty in an effort to connect with you / work with you / share with you. Maybe you could find a way to do the same, with asking for help or doing something together that you would have historically just done by yourself. We are building something new here, maybe try something different...can you do that?

It may have felt like a criticism of your behavior. It may have come off as a complaint. Did you feel angry when she said that to you? IMHO, Anger in this case would be a response of score keeping on your side. Maybe it is frustration or whatever. Those are your feelings and you should acknowledge them and allow yourself to feel them, right…just not control your actions unless it is constructive.

This is my take on this and yes there is some mind reading going on, and as always I could be way off base

The second piece that struck me was your comment that you don’t even know if you love her. This is something only you will ever be able to know. Maybe you could work it out by describing what you think love is, and how that differs from how you feel about her…or maybe even by describing what you think is missing in your feelings for her, for it not to constitute as love. I don’t know that you need to post this stuff back to us all, maybe as an exercise with yourself to help work out your feelings…or maybe a trip to the IC to help sort this out (This is exactly the kind of stuff I work out with my IC). It is very personal. Very deep stuff that I would not blame you if you needed to keep offline.

I do think that is something worth looking at, is it that you don’t feel IN LOVE where or you just don’t hold any feelings at all? I think this is something that the WAS deals with for a long time, emptiness…lack of longing or desire…lack of satisfaction with a relationship…lack of fulfillment, where finally they decide that they are no longer in love. If this is how you feel, and you are entitled to your feelings it might be worth looking at the why, and what you want to do about it. Is your wife losing you...are you ready to be done...is she actually ready to hear you. i don't think she is done 'cooking' but she is starting to look at things a little different than before. if now you start to push for more, she very well will get defensive and withdraw.

Ok, so I’ve gone on and on again and I have to get back to work

-----------------------------------------

so honestly i typed this a few days ago and it felt awkward. i have not had a chance to smooth it out. I do think there are two thoughts in there and i don't think they are necessarily contradicting themselves, i think both thoughts are worth looking at.

My biggest take-away from this...that i never got around to was that your focus on you needs to intensify. you finding a way to meet your own needs of companionship and fun should be a focus for you. i know you've gone out for beers a couple of times, what else have you been doing to work on forging, growing interpersonal relationships outside of the house and workplace...have you been making new friends or improving existing ones?

Again sorry for the lack of continuity in the thoughts....this was typed over multiple days when i had a few moments of alone / quiet time. (school started last week so schedules are extra full).

(((Roiste)))

Z,

Yes we both have walls up. I had dismantled mine and was for the first time in years fully willing and able and motivated to discus and share my thoughts and feelings. However over time new ones have gone up. But these are just a screen. They are present if the person in front if me is not willing/able to be open with me. It is not resentment or spite that holds these screens in place but the reluctance to keep headbutting a wall of someone who is not available. Communication and connection takes two, otherwise it is not affective.

I have read loads on this topic and agree one of us has to take the first step. The first fifty steps even! I am willing to do that but won't force it. Firstly forcing will just reenforce her walls and secondly I now have a better opinion of myself to waste my effort.

That being said, I did start certain behaviours to show (me as much as W) that I was/am capable of managing without her help. I am mindful of this and try to balance how I do this. I don't need my Ws help most it the time, but at other tines I admit I don't want it. I will reflect on this and determine if I can tweak it.

W does often ask for my help, sometimes I feel unnecessarily as she could easily have managed alone. And I oblige, most times although if I am in the middle of something I no longer drop it instantly.

Yes those loner behaviours ring a bell with me. I will review this and determine if I can act differently.

From now on I will post exclusively in my new thread so please ask questions/reply over there. I may copy this reply over too.

Best wishes