Hi all I have been reading a lot of different posts here and have been getting inspiration and support from many places. Thanks to all the brave people who are daring to be honest about their situations.
As I reflect over the last two years of my previously "perfect"marriage, I realize that we have been struggling with H depression, being Mr Nice guy but really passive aggressive, his MLC, and my co-dependency fear of loosing as well as trying to combat the problems of his childhood (his parents D when he was 8, parents split the kids; he was given the choice to live with a parent, he chose his dad, because his mom was "mean").
Bottom line he dropped the bomb about 1.5 years ago, we briefly reconciled and then he went home reconnected with his friends and OW continued a PA and returned to move out on our 10 y anniversary. He has recently stated again that he wants a D but does nothing to initiate it. His behavior just keeps getting worse, hoping that I will do it all. I have gone dark, first time. Prior he had complete access to me and the kids and used it. He was at the house almost every day cooked dinner for us, went out to dinner with us etc. He just slept somewhere else. He was happier than I've ever seen him almost maniacal. He stated he was doing it only for the kids and that he wanted to remain "friends" since the OW and he were not in a A but a R despite the fact that she lives in his country and we are still M. I am struggling with how dark to go without giving him justification for his behavior. My DB counselor told me to treat him like a friend and write him an apology letter but that was before he intended to take the kids to meet OW in his country and hang out with all his friends and family who are ALL going through Ds and As (not exaggerating) with no plan regarding how he was going to address the kids questions/concerns. He said I will just tell them the "truth." He said we should let the kids choose. I said are you crazy? I went dark. I struggle with Boundaries as I feel like he has walked all over every one of mine until he started to involve our children.
Looking for specific advise on how dark to go. Looking for advise on foreigners. Do these techniques work for mankind or really just for American culture? I have not initiated any contact with him in over a two weeks. But he's planning to "talk to me tomorrow about foreign trip again." He calls every night to talk to the kids. If it is past their bedtime, I do not pick up. He has threatened to leave the kids to me and walk away. He has called me controlling. I am trying to GAL. This is my problem. I have read elsewhere in other "save your marriage places," that the death nell to relationships and will surely push your spouse away for good is to ignore them, to cut them out. They will just justify their opinion of you and push them into the arms of the OP.
M 10 T13 D9,S7 BD 8/17/2014 S 8/2015, moved out 11/7/15
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Thanks for reaching out. I am sorry you are here. I have more questions than I do answers for you at this point. But I do agree that ignoring never helps; and all the more reason not to if you have kids involved. Boundaries and detachment are about protecting yourself--not pursuing, not talking about R, and working on yourself. If he contacts you about the kids, custody, finances, I think it's important to try and put emotions aside and make solid decisions.
So this started 1 1/2 years ago, he admitted to A, and then left you? Have you been separated this entire time?
Do you have any current arrangements regarding custody, finances, or a system in place? How is that working?
Does he currently live close by and see the kids with some frequency? Is he able to follow through with responsibilities?
Most importantly, how are the kids doing and how are you holding up? Are you able to GAL, 180, and detach?
You mentioned that he is a foreigner and does this (DB) only work for American culture? Are you able to share what country he is from? Is he within a culture or religion that he is using to somehow try and justify this behavior?
Do you want the M to work out? Are you hoping he will come back around? Have you seen a L yet?
Sorry for all the questions! I am not sure what else to tell you at this point. But I am glad you are here, there is lots of wonderful support, and I do know how hard this is!
Please give us more details so we can better help you out.
Hang in there. -Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Blu and Cadet Thanks for the support. I have read DR several times now and many other books, listened to tapes, done other "save your marriage programs" spent too much $$$ BUT I have learned plenty about myself and my H. Interesting the one of the thing that has struck me most deeply and the reason I post now was Blu's comment on the NICE GUY SYNDROME. It took me this long to realize that was probably the crux of our problem from the very beginning. Subconsciously I recognized it when I said to my dad before we got married "I'm not sure if he's strong enough to be married to me." but I loved his sweetness and smile and thought he'd just grow into more honestly this will sound stereotypical but "manly strength" and he did not. I became less attracted to him. Instead he sought out emotional and physical support elsewhere and he'd lied and lied and lied.
He told me about the A about 4 months into BD. I had asked repeatedly when it went from I'm thinking of leaving to cold and ice when he returned from a trip to Europe. Little did I know that she lived there and was waiting for him. He then must have felt justified in going whole hog into his R with her. He disappeared at New Years and I caught him in his lies. He came back and swore he was returned. It was on and off back and forth for the next 6 months until last summer when he took the kids to Europe and then I joined them. He gave me the impression that he wanted me on the trip; we were happy and back together. We made love the first night and then he said he never wanted me there at all. We slowly pieced together a truce for the trip and I thought we had some of the most honest conversations about our relationship we've ever had. I was impressed by his honesty and strength and for the first time in a long while felt stirrings of deep attraction for him. However we returned from Europe to the news his BFF had walked out on his W of 17 years to move in with his A partner, leave his 3 kids to be with hers. He moved out of our bedroom two days later. He took off his ring and moved into his own apartment 2 .5 months later.
Currently No lawyers, no custody papers, no $$ divided. But lately he has said repeatedly he's going to file. We were living up until truly 3 weeks ago like he was just living in different room. He says the kids seem fine. I said of course they do. We are not screaming at each other and you are around with us all the time at least until recently. If you think the kids are not affected its only because they spend 90% of their time with me and they are talking to me. When they are with him he just buys them stuff.
Tonight I put my foot down and at the risk of being exactly predictable for him. I refused to let him take the kids to Europe with him. He wanted to normalize his relationship with her with them and all be "together". It is his vacation with the kids. He can do what he wants, he says. I said no actually you can't. He said I'm making this all about me. I said I'm not, I'm looking out for the children's well being and welfare and their emotional health now and years from now. They are not meeting someone with whom you are having an A and further more they are not hanging around all the people you are with in Europe who are also having As and do not respect M nor their commitments. I sound like an old fuddy dudy.
He was mad at me and tried to draw me into the usual arguments. I declined. Do I want my marriage to work out yes and no. Yes I'd like to remain married for my children, for my pride for basic ease in life and because I believe life is a journey and love changes and grows and can improve and can get better and can thrive; now truly if I'm honest I only want to be married IF he is more conscious, aware, courageous, and really trying. Do I want to be married to him as he was and is "Hell No." I need a different guy to show up to the party. He keeps saying over and over again. I will never understand him he needs tenderness. Our relationship was too practical too functional. We didn't like to spend time together. He needs to feel loved and he didn't from me and now its too late. He feels nothing for me..so he has moved on. I told him to go enjoy his two weeks with her alone. Two weeks ago I could not feel the kind of clarity, two days ago I probably still would have been weeping as I penned these sentences.
I married him for a reason. He is smart, very good looking, funny, said all the right things, he said he'd be there and he was, he said he'd call and he did and he was/is a lot of fun. He lacks emotional courage. His parents left he and his sister to be the caretakers for their own emotional health. He internalized it all trying to people please his way through women, didn't learn how to talk about his needs, thinks it should be unconscious etc etc etc.
I wish I knew what would happen. I will accept any recommendations for further reading particularly on this personality type or advice on what I should be doing now. It just seems like I just wait. I have trouble waiting.
M 10 T13 D9,S7 BD 8/17/2014 S 8/2015, moved out 11/7/15
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thank you for all the additional info. You are in a tough spot. I truly feel you. It sounds like you have very good insight into your sitch and understandably want to protect your kids from his A. I felt the same way! Nice Guys are hard to understand because their actions do not match their words and their internal struggles are so deeply rooted. If he is to understand himself and change, he has to want that for himself--that could take awhile I'm afraid. Right now he is running to OW because she "makes" him feel good about himself.
So you are reading DB and are implementing the 180s, detachment, and GAL? What have you been doing and how has that been working?
In terms of him going to Europe and taking the kids, well I completely understand your concerns and I would have felt the same way! It is hard because in reality he can and will do what he wants tho; a big part of DB is letting the wayward go and not trying to control them. If you read my threads, you will see that I blew it all the time. However, when it comes to involving the kids, well I think there does need to be some boundaries for the kids. That is where I put DB aside and told H, no way you are ever, ever letting OW around the kids!
I think you are right to express your concerns of him taking them out of the country and exposing them to his A. The question is, what can you realistically do about that? Does he have to take them at all?
If he is taking them, how can you ensure their comfort and safety? Can you come up with some guidelines together? Perhaps he will be more respectful of them if he can see that your concern is for them and not about your feelings about his A. Either way, it is hard because there is no guarantee he will follow through and you do not trust him right now.
I am going to keep thinking about this one. I hope some of the vets will weigh in.
As you may know from your research, this process takes a long time, and so try and be patient with yourself. DB is about letting go and learning to put yourself first; hopefully over time that will attract them back. If not, your confidence will lead you to accept you deserve better.
-Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Blu Thanks for the advice. Believe it or not I have not had consistent internet coverage for a few days and have been unable to post. I completely agree with your assessment of the situation and your advice. I am not trying to control him although he sees it that way. I have suggested to him that he just go to Europe and spend time with whomever he wishes without the kids. He says that's not what he wants and he invokes the kids wellbeing into my decision. He says its good for the kids to get out of town for the summer. This is about them and I'm making this about me. I have agreed with him that the kids would enjoy a trip but I am not sacrificing their mental well-being and sense of safety by his OW and A. I recognize that if we were D I'd have little control over who he introduced them to but I have asked him repeatedly to look at this not just in terms of how he feels and what he wants but as well how the kids feel and what they prioritize and what they will remember about him and about this time in their lives. There was a time when I could have compromised with him and thought he could be trusted however he went behind my back planned to take the kids where his OW lives to be with her and them and did not discuss any part of it with me before hand. Of course if he could do that, we probably wouldn't be in this situation now. Its his secrecy his inability to voice his opinion calmly and with out malice that has been the crux of our problem. Every difficult conversation I have had to bring up , every question I've had to ask. I have sacrificed a lot of my well-being to his alter of indecision and inability to stand up for himself and us but I will not for my children.
His compromise was to have his sister pick up the kids with her OM around (brand new sitch). They both acknowledge that they came from poor childhood situations but now say oh well that's just the way it is. We will not have consistent relationships and I don't care about my kids having consistent relationships either; that's reality most people just don't. They both feel that it is not their responsibility to try to achieve something better for themselves or their children than what they experienced even thought they both say that's what they wanted before.
I am not exaggerating when I say all of our close friends are in the midst of marriage crisis. His best friend is living with his OW and her three kids and is treating his wife like a castoff servant and dragging her to court etc. and left his own three kids, his sister is now doing the same and wants to bring her OM and son to the US for the other 1/2 of the summer. My best friend is having an A. It is too much for me. Her H is calling me crying every day. They all think I am worried about kidnapping for the kids both ways. This is more about their psychological well being and the fact that no one will be there to reinforce a sense of safety and constancy and boundaries for them. Both my H and his sister feel completely justified in their behavior as they have decided their marriages were awful and they are not "married" any longer. My therapist supports me. I offered as a compromise a professional opinion on how to approach the kids. Family therapist, my therapist, his etc.. We can discuss this with a third party. He refuses. Although I sound fierce, I am trying to give him the benefit of some kind of rationale plan.
I have just started reading on NICE GUY Syndrome. It fits our relationship and my experience almost to a tee. I subconsciously realized a lot of this and honestly trying to no longer to "save him" on my good days butI honestly live in fear of my kids normalizing this crazy behavior and living with problems in their relationships and lives as a result. Any recommendations on resources to go for them in this transition?
M 10 T13 D9,S7 BD 8/17/2014 S 8/2015, moved out 11/7/15
I also need help in LRT with kids. I still find that we have far too much interaction. He often wants to continue talking with me. How was your trip? Who did you meet? Was it interesting? etc etc. I try to be vague. But it is such a departure from how we were its hard to seem so "rude".
M 10 T13 D9,S7 BD 8/17/2014 S 8/2015, moved out 11/7/15
I also need help in LRT with kids. I still find that we have far too much interaction. He often wants to continue talking with me. How was your trip? Who did you meet? Was it interesting? etc etc. I try to be vague. But it is such a departure from how we were its hard to seem so "rude".
Why are you worried about if you are being rude if he is having an affair? That is kind of rude too.
Maybe this is meeting some kind of need of his? Best to stop meeting his needs while an affair is going on.
Cadet Thanks for the follow up. You are right. I am having trouble separating LRT from what I need to do as a parent. We (not sure) are moving to a different city and selling a house as well. I find it is far too much interaction. I've been following one of the detachment thread with bigbiz and recognize that I am still too dependent on his moods and plans. However I have come a really long way. It's the process of letting go that I finding paradoxically easier to do than trying to engage emotionally with him. When I was there I was ping-ponging back and forth with his moods. However now honestly I am uncertain how we could ever build any kind of R with the amount of distance emotional and physical now between us. I recognize from reading and re-reading posts that this is not in my control. It so feels that I have lost this war to OW and lost to 50%+ of people that end their marriages in divorce, give up, allow their families to dissolve etc. I know that the natural response should be what am I fighting for? This guy who won't live out his commitment is lost in a fog of selfishness etc. On my good days I think that way and I do well. On my bad, I blame myself for choosing very poorly and subjecting my children to this trauma. Today I'm a little sadder. I need to do more to GAL. Although if you knew me you'd say you are doing plenty. Today it seems counterintuitive to do so much without your "life partner". No connection is what he complained about, somedays particularly when I am sadder it seems like I am confirming his complaints and going along with his desire to be rid of me. However it is a 180 to how I was for the last 6-9 months, begging, pleading demanding, complaining and then being overly nice and compliant constantly apologizing etc.
M 10 T13 D9,S7 BD 8/17/2014 S 8/2015, moved out 11/7/15
