WHs do come back--Piecing--

[BluWave]

I don't want to confuse these things. I want to distinguish the difference. There are plenty of nice guys in the world that are great Hs, fathers, and friends. And yes, women should appreciate them and respect them. I am sorry that you guys are in this sitch. But we are referring to more of a condition--perhaps including some mental health conditions (depression, anxiety, social isolation, lack of personal identity) and it is actually devastating and can ultimately ruin relationships. So that is why I am putting it in caps--Nice Guys--which is NOT to be confused with simply being a nice person. We all should want that (kindness) in a partner. However being married to a Nice Guy, is difficult, because what you see, and may see for many years, may not be who he is and you may not know what he is often really thinking and feeling.

What we are referring to is a man that has a deep seeded insecurity, a need to please women and put their needs before his own (co-dependency), and a lack of healthy male activities or relationships. Nice Guys have been raised to value other before themselves. They have been raised to stuff their needs and feelings and just put on a nice face. They have been taught that traditionally masculine activities or qualities are bad and harmful. They often put their partner's needs before their own and ultimately build resentment and sabotage the R: many women lose respect for them and become frustrated that he does not stand up to her (have a back bone) or have his own interests and hobbies (which makes him interesting and attractive).

Like I said, there is an entire book on this (which has been edited out of the title--sorry if I broke the rules, moderators). I know we often want to find similarities and it helps us gain more insight into our own sitch, but I do not think everyone here falls into this category.

That being said, OFP & JimK, I agree that if a woman would rather date a dirtbag than a nice H that is devoted to them, all the more reason to drop the rope and let her go! You deserve better!

-Blu

[BluWave]

Just want to journal for a moment:

I have been reading here and am thinking about the confusion of the LBS and if they really want the WW/WH back and I have some thoughts about this. I think when a person leaves us, our self esteem falls in the gutter, we are blind sighted and scared, and so naturally we cling to what was lost or taken from us. That is why there is some emphasis here on part of detachment being that the M is over and gone. This doesn't mean you can't have a R with that person again, it is a way to help you come to acceptance.

Acceptance is the hardest piece in my mind. I keep reading here that posters are 100% convinced there is no A. They just can't believe it is even possible. I felt that way too. It took me a long, long time to even wrap my head around the fact that my H could even hurt me. He was the perfect nice guy! Well, now I know I was wrong; he was actually the perfect Nice Guy, and as V pointed out, they come with many flaws and hidden (unknown to them) agendas. I never knew my H was capable of anything but being a wonderful man, H, and father. After 15 years, he snapped. There is only so long a person can survive stuffing their needs and feelings.

So after I was struggling on my own, I realized I have to come to accept that the M was over. I kept asking myself if I would ever take him back. The strong confident me, always said no. And he knew that was a deal breaker all along. That and my anger kept him away much longer. I don't know if in that year, I ever came to fully accept that he was gone, the M was over, and to know I would be fine in life without him. But I tried and tried to act as if every day.

When H came back, he was different and out of the fog. You see, I could not have known if I would take him back while he was gone because he never showed me a person I could respect and love. When he came back he was remorseful, transparent, and willing to do anything for as long as it took to give it his best shot. He wanted to give me a change, put our family back together, and he always knew in his heart he owed it to himself to try. He knew there were no guarantees and that I may never forgive him and see past the A.

I really failed at DB a lot. And we have been piecing for over a year now and it has been hard work. So I am here to say that I could not know what it would feel like to be here when H was gone; no clue. You cannot make that decision while they are wayward because that is not a person you would want. It has taken me a year of piecing, but I can see that if we continue on this path it will work and it will be better than before.

How do I know that? Because we have both made the conscious choice to do that. It's simply a choice to wake up every day and think "I don't need you, but I want you." For me, I want my family intact, I want financial security, I want to raise my kids with someone that loves them as much as I do, I want to have history with someone, I want to know that I tried everything I could. And so does he.

With that comes the fact that in order to recover form the crisis, we both have to be stronger independently and we have to look in ourselves. There is no way we could survive this war without that. But you see, without this crisis, I am not sure either of us would have done that. So if we can both successfully do that, ultimately we WILL be happier, healthier people. Isn't that also what attracts us to others?

So where am I going with all of this? I am in full agreement that if two people can come together after full destruction--affairs, divorce, whatever it may be--yes, the R can be better. That is only if both people make that choice, do the hard work and stay on the path over time. You cannot know that now while your spouse is gone. You can only know that if they present to you someone that is new and improved, or someone that is willing to improve by your side but only for them self.

-Blu

[SH_]

It's simply a choice to wake up every day and think "I don't need you, but I want you." For me, I want my family intact, I want financial security, I want to raise my kids with someone that loves them as much as I do, I want to have history with someone, I want to know that I tried everything I could.

Blu,
Your post is exactly why this community needs you and your story. Your insights and musing are so important for folks to understand. In spite of your challenges, struggles and self doubt in the process, you get it. You have learned from your mistakes. You continue to learn from your mistakes. And this is what life is all about in every aspect of our lives, right?! Take action, make mistakes and then learn from them and taking a different action. Happiness can be found in this journey and when we do this, we control that happiness.

Yet, so many need everything and everyone around them to line up with what they perceive will make them happy. They fail to take action, due to fears that they will make a mistake, or the mistake will be fatal, so they stand still or ask others what to do, and then fail to follow the advice, because it does not feel right. Then mistakes happen, and they rinse and repeat the same cycle. Cheeseless tunnels if you will.

Maybe this is why so many MR breakdown. Spouses want the other to make them happy and be what they want them to be, and when they are not, they bail. When, they themselves failed to put in any work to make themselves happy.

So to my point. Blu, this hits the nail right on the head and is the missing piece in far to many relationships IMHO.
"I don't need you, but I want you."
How many are struggling in this community because they NEED their spouse.
This is obvious in the postings, because in one sentence the LBS is talking about all the things they need from the WAS/WW, then in the next sentence, the comments are all about the person that they can not believe the WAS/WW has become and they do not like nor want to be with that person.

The key to this "I don't need you, but I want you." , is that each person needs to find happiness within first and serve the person they want to love. Then it will not matter how that person accepts us or not. Because we want to serve them. We don't need their approval in return.

So, is the truth that, I want my family intact, I want financial security, I want to raise my kids with someone that loves them as much as I do, about the WAS/WS? Or can we be the person that attracts the person that we want? Be it the WAS/WW after they come out of the fog and become this person, or a new person that fits the desire of this statement?

I agree that we must do all that we can while there is an opportunity with the current parent and spouse for our family. But in doing this, doing all that we can, we must be focused on ourselves first, and know the signs that our spouse has reformed. If the signs do not manifest themselves in a timeframe the we know to be adequate, then we must be prepared to move on and attract the person that we want, and can meet the benefits of our family, financial security,loves our children as we do, and will create a new history full of many more beneficial aspects for our lives. Life can be to short to wait around for the person that has caused damage to our family due to selfish reasons.

Thanks again Blu. Your insight is very wise and I hope many LBS will read, reflect and take action on this. They will find a much smoother journey with growth and progress as they do.

And I reserve the right to change my mind on these musings, as they come from the place that I am in my journey, and may not apply to all that read it.
I feel strongly that to find true peace and happiness, we must look within, and then serve others with no expectations. Love is a choice that requires action and needs to start with loving and respecting ourselves first.

[ciluzen]

BluWave and SadHub,

Those were both beautiful, insightful and very needed posts. I know I truly struggle with my feelings for my H and wanting him back. I realize its a want, though. Not a need. As much as I am trying to move forward with my new life and trying to find happiness through my own actions, it is still hard to move on past the wanting of having H back.

I realize he fits the "Nice Guy" syndrome, even the not so nice parts. He also seems to be going through an MLC. But how do you completely detach when you see that they are making some sort of effort on their own to deal with their issues? I know it may sound ridiculous to say I'm trying to DB and move on, but I really am. But I feel the need to watch out of the corner of my eye to see what he's doing. That want is still pretty strong.

[SH_]

But how do you completely detach when you see that they are making some sort of effort on their own to deal with their issues? I know it may sound ridiculous to say I'm trying to DB and move on, but I really am. But I feel the need to watch out of the corner of my eye to see what he's doing. That want is still pretty strong.

ciluzen,

I don't know that there is an easy answer for this and I imagine the time needed for detachment to take place varies for each of us. My thoughts are that it is through concentrated efforts that each of us will reach the point. I encourage that you seek out any material that can aid you in understanding what detachment is and how one can do it. The heart is a finicky thing for many of us, but like any other thing in life that is worth it, it will take work, time and a belief that we can do it.

[BluWave]

Thank you both for your feedback. I am glad that people here are reading this thread and taking something away from it. Again, I do not claim to be any expert, however I am happy to speak to my sitch if others find it helpful.

You are not alone if you are struggling with detachment. I think every poster here is struggling with that and that is WHY they are here. And for every person posting on these baords there are 100s or many 1000s reading that may never post. I read here the entire time H was in the fog, but never could bring myself to post. I didn't even post until a month ago--our 1 year mark into piecing.

I have still struggled with detachment even while piecing. In any close R, there is going to be some degree of codependency. My kids rely on me for a lot and they can get under my skin like nobodys business! Well same with H, but in a different way; we have all this history, we share everything, and I live with him everyday. So I can never fully "detach" from any of them. So what does detachment mean actually?

Well, again, I am no psychologist, but for me detachment means breaking an unhealthy level of co-dependency. It means not allowing what that other person says, does, and feels, to dictate what I say, do, and feel. It means to love someone but not to sacrifice your own needs and feelings for them. For me it means that I can create healthy boundaries, to be free to say no without fear of them withdrawing their love. It means to accept that when they say no to me, they are not saying that they don't love me. It is letting someone go who is asking to be released. It is valuing myself enough to know what I deserve and to ask for it. It is knowing that I cannot change another person but if I am not comfortable with what they are doing, I can safely take a giant step back.

-Blu

[jamaica]

Blu
Please keep posting. I have gained so much insight and support from your story in regards to mine. It seems we have similar personalities and were married to similar kinds of men. I struggle daily with the simple disbelief that the man I thought was "so nice, smiling and good" could do this to me and to our family. He is having a PA and EA since she lives across the Atlantic and we live in the states with an old girlfriend and has decided that this is THE R for him as ours was awful. He moved out 7 months ago. He wants to be "friends" now. Prior these last few weeks he had complete access to me and the kids. He cooked dinner for us, went out to dinner with us, would spend the day at the house, coordinate the day but would sleep elsewhere and when asked he would say he's only here for the kids and wants nothing to do with me. Did your H ever want to introduce his affair partner to the children? Can you or others comment. In the spirit of complete detachment should I agree? We have no agreements no custody arrangements. We are still legally M. My heart says no way especially since she lives in a different country and we are still M and I will not be physically there to support the kids emotionally. I just posted my story on Newcomers under MLC/Foreigner. It's not out of observation yet. You could comment there or here. Thanks so much!
Jamaica

[BluWave]

I don't have much to post these days because things are going relatively well. I am still here tho and reading up on folks. I feel like I should be careful about giving too much advice--I am coming out on the other side, but still have so much to learn myself!

I think we have turned another corner. We have decided to take a step back from working on the R and rehashing all of our thoughts, feelings, and disagreements. That can keep us feeling stuck and the hard feelings lingering. We are trying to be in a space where we can just accept that it is what it is right now. We are trying to maintain our independence and focus more on ourselves: we are both STILL learning to DB (he just doesn't actually know what that is, haha). So go easy on yourselves folks, it takes a LONG time to get it right. Day-by-day, week-by-week, and in my case year-by-year :-)

Piecing has been it's own roller coaster. There have been so many times that I have felt myself wanting to give up. I have to thought stop (shake off the grudge of the A) and to remind myself that I want this M to work--for the kids and for myself--and that I can always change my mind if it doesn't. Realistically, there is no way to figure this out in a day, or even in a year perhaps. Now that the painful triggers are starting to fade, and the emotional ups/downs are not as extreme, I can allow things to settle.

I saw OW again. It has only been a few times, but it is getting much easier and I am not letting her affect me. She was hugged up with her new OM and again isolated from all the other kids, parents, and activities. She is pitiful. I feel sorry for her H, and especially her kids. I was proud of myself though; I went about my afternoon, had a good time at the event, and found myself even feeling grateful to be where I am in life. If you had told me this a year ago, I would not have believed you! Just the thought of her made me feel sick to my stomach--this was someone I thought was a friend for many years, and even while she was pursing my H, she pretended to be a friend.

H has been great lately and I can continually see the changes he has made on himself, with the kids, and in his R with me. I think us taking the pressure off of "working" on the M, has made our time together more natural and enjoyable. The longer he is out of the fog, the more he can reflect with clarity on what a terrible mistake he made. That helps me forgive him and accept what happened as well.

Fellow DBers, If you are feeling constantly anxious, spinning & mind-reading, or are just feeling hopeless, I want you to know that it will NOT be this way forever. This is incredibly hard, but in your entire life, it is a short amount of time. Life, people, and Rs are never stagnant and always changing. That part I do know for sure.

Peace.
-Blt

[BluWave]

Jam,

We must have been posting at the same time. I will check out your thread later today when I have time and comment there. I am so, so sorry you are here. I feel you, sister! This is the hardest thing I have ever been through in my life. It will get better one day. You are in the thick of it. Take care of yourself!

To answer your question, NO, my H did not bring kids around OW and I made it very clear I would never be okay with that. We live in a small town, know all the same people, and our kids are friends. We even had the same circle of friends for many years. During the A, OW tried very hard to get them together, have "family" time, and even wanted H to move in with her after she left her H! This was all under a years time! All the kids would know and she had no sense to even care about anyone but herself. She is a real piece of work! ... Anyhow, even when H was deep in the fog, he kept their A as hidden as he could, and he felt very ashamed. He did not want me to know/see what was going on and he never wanted the kids to know either.

My friends, family, and therapist all told me to let that idea go and that I could not control him. I knew they were right, but I still tried. I made it very clear to him what a dirtbag he was and to keep OW away from my children. I think he knew in his heart I was right. He also did not want to hurt me or the kids. ... To this day, they are still not allowed near her or to her to kid's parties. People can judge all they want, but I will not let my guard down on this. She is a toxic woman and I do not want her to ever have a chance to say anything to my kids. This mama bear is not to be messed with!

I'll get back to you later! Thank you for checking in.
-Blu

[BluWave]

Another kids event and OW crossing; however this time it was H with our kids and I wasn't there, OW was with her new OM and kids, and her H was there by himself. My H said it was awkward--no one spoke or interacted, they all just saw each other, and then passed by as if strangers. H said when he sees her H, he feels bad, and he can now see what their R has done to not only our family but their family as well. Did I mention that all of us were friends before any of this? And our occasional crossings will be unavoidable because we live in a small town and have kids in the same sports/activities.

This time I felt triggered. I feel protective over her H, because he went through what I went through, and was/is in the same sitch as all of you here. Now he has to go to these events solo and see my H (the A that essentially broke apart their M) and he has to see his W (or XW) there with his kids and hew new OM. Ugh. And to think she called her H her best friend and would say how no matter what happened to their M, H would always be her best friend. Ironically she would tell me this (years ago) while she was pursuing my H behind my back. What a (not at all hot) mess she is!

Anyhow, just hearing that H crossed them, triggered me, and more so than when I just saw her a week ago. He feels sad that he did this to her H and as time goes on it becomes more clear the destruction that this caused. I couldn't help but agree with him. Yeah, you two were fools and hurt a lot of people. What were you thinking? You gave up our M and family for that? She's a complete trainwreck. It's embarrassing. Now, I didn't say all of that, but I was thinking it. Then I rolled over, went to sleep, and went on with my day the next morning. Now for me, THAT is progress.

Otherwise, things are fine on the piecing front. Busy times with the end of school and kids sports/activities wrapping up. Lot's of nice summer plans and vacays. Mostly I am feelings at peace with where we are at. I am not thinking about him all the time, obsessing over the M or what is happening, but more so focusing on just living my life. I am also not putting pressure on working on things or spending time together. Sometimes just taking the pressure off and accepting what it is, makes it feel okay overall.

-Blu