What Should I be doing (4)

[Coconut]

Link to previous thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677177&page=1

So quick update:
WW had EA with kissing for 3 weeks before I found texts.
W is a volunteer firefighter and OM also there. My original boundary was NC, even if it meant to quit, which W really didn't want to do.

W started giving me frequent updates of whereabouts, and doing everything I asked to be transparent. I finally believed she wasn't communicating with OM, or interested in doing so, so I backed off my NC boundary and changed it to no communication.

I believed in my gut that she was out of fog and committed to MR, so I am being more talkative with her, and things are going well so far. We are doing things as a family, both sleeping in MBR (no intamicy), and working on friendship.

[Coconut]

For some WW's, she can sense very quickly if her H is "looking down" on her, or putting himself up a little higher than her. I have seen a few men in past years who had developed a self-righteous attitude. Several even told me that NOTHING was worse than cheating. Nothing??? I can almost guarantee you that a flare of rebellion will surely show itself if your W believes you feel better than her b/c you haven't cheated......and she did. Nobody is without sin!

Sandi, I hesitate to post because I think I support your main point which is how a LBS should act, and common pitfalls. I agree it can bring a marriage down if an LBS feels entitled to cling to resentment or act diminishing towards their feelings.

But while we all have sin, our society recognizes a difference. Murder isn't the same as theft which isn't the same as using your water cup for fountain soda at a fast food joint.

I do think that infidelity is the worst thing that can happen in a relationship. Society has softened on this quite a bit and there's a new age attitude going on that infidelity can be a catalyst for both people to grow and take their relationship to the next level. While that is possible, and in his position I root for him in his quest to do just that, I can't join the chorus of voices that minimize the betrayal cheating is.

For me personally I have come a ways on this one. When I started I would've worked through it with XW shortly after BD. Now I'm glad we didn't. I would rather be single for the count than with someone that is capable of cheating. Don't get me started on the 'we're all capable given the right circumstance', it's simply not true. But if I were to even think about working through a betrayal like this, I couldn't even consider it unless I was convinced that WW understood how atrocious it really was. If she had the attitude 'It was a bad relationship and we both made mistakes' when the topic came up that wouldn't work for me. If WW didn't understand that she broke trust and escalated the pain in the relationship in a permanent and devastating way that could never be fully recovered from, and that it was out of bounds by miles, and committed to being a better person that wouldn't ever have cheating in her vocabulary again...well, no go for this guy.

Now, forgiveness is critical. Losing the score keeping is critical. Moving forward. Not bringing it up or lording it over her. Recognizing that while her response was inappropriate that doesn't diminish the validity of her feelings and the pain in her relationship. Working together as a partnership and not with an attitude of 'now I've got you, you'll pay for what you've done and make it up to me'. All good stuff.

But let's do all of this without further contributing to the breakdown of the little that's left in belief in commitment.

By the way Sandi, thank you so much for posting and helping so many for so long. I have been wanting to tell you that, I read all of your posts and am so appreciative for you. I thought I'd better say that now so you knew I was fired up about infidelity, not you!

Zeus, thank you for bringing this up because it has been on my mind, I was so focused on hoping she would recommit to the M that I previously never really thought about her ability to not do it again. Sure I thought about how hard it would be to trust her again, and I felt that if her cup was full of love she wouldn't be likely to do it again, but now that she's recommitted I do wonder if I'm just setting myself up.

I mean let's face it, being married has its challenges and everything isn't all roses, you lose that fire that's only found in new relationships (I'm not saying there is no fire in long term M's, just that there's familiarity in M, which is different than new love), and is wanting to love and commit enough to fight of the urge of the high she got?

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just wondering how much of a draw there is to that candy once you've had a taste.

Sandi2, I know you are committed to your H and M, and went through a lot of regret and shame in what you did, but do you find it hard to not want to feel those things again? I'm thinking you don't and am wondering is it because of you, or your love for your H, or the thought of what it would do to your family that keeps you so committed?

[Coconut]

I apologize to all LBH'S for appearing as to minimize the degree of the affects an A has on a MR. That was far from my intentions. I should have explained it was the feelings of a WW.

I was strictly speaking from that position I was in when I came to the board as a WW who was trying to work through my issues and stay in my M. My point was about my feelings and how it affected me, as a WW, to see self-righteousness (IMHO) in a few of the LBH'S. I think it was hitting a raw nerve in me.........and perhaps I'm projecting when I say I think it could be the case with a lot of WW's trying to get back on track with her MR. If she still has resentment, she's likely to bristle if she senses any self righteous attitude in her H.

Those LBH'S probably meant it the way you stated, Zues, but I was reading it as though they were saying infedility was the worst sin in the world (not just in the M). As a WW, I was very defensive about it, and my resentment would quickly turn on my H. I just would not accept, at that point, that he was so much better.......more right....... than me.......b/c my mindset was not ready to take full responsibility for the hurt I had caused. (At that time I had not felt true remose). I could not accept that it was the worst thing I could ever do. My guilt was stinging.

I meant to just tell H's who were in Coconut's shoes at the point of "holding her feet to the fire", to be careful about giving her the impression he was looking down at her.

((LBH'S ))

Sandi posted this on previous thread...

[sandi2]

I mean let's face it, being married has its challenges and everything isn't all roses, you lose that fire that's only found in new relationships (I'm not saying there is no fire in long term M's, just that there's familiarity in M, which is different than new love), and is wanting to love and commit enough to fight of the urge of the high she got?

That is why it is a lot easier to leave the old R and start fresh with a new one. When a couple are both feeling excited and the high of being in love........it is easier. The work comes when the blaze of the fire is gone and you have a pile of ashes. I'm not going to tell anyone it's easy, b/c I don't think it is. Some people may cope better than others, but if they have a successful, happy MR........it is going to take everything they can muster to breathe life back into the M again.

I think it is key that both spouses are working to deal with their individual issues, as well as the issues in the R. I have said that the WW probably has to show a bigger effort on her part......b/c she is the one who was wayward and needs to prove herself trustworthy again.

That's not to say the H has nothing to do from his side of the street. They each have doubts, expectations, fears, etc. That's why I think it is important to find professional family therapy. Otherwise it's like a doctor doing surgery on himself.

From what I have observed, one of the main concerns of the H is if his WW will have desire for him again, or if he will have to settle for a roommate lifestyle. And, I have also noticed that it is extremely common to see that men like to know in advance if his W will get there or not......so he knows how to plan his future. . Many have stated if on,y they could know if things would work out, then they would be happy to do what was necessary, otherwise they wanted to end it and start a new life. It would be nice if we knew in advance.........maybe, IDK. But we dont't know. We have to decide if the time and hard work is worth it..........even if doesn't turn out like we had hoped.

I believe desire can return........or develop. I believe the ages of the couple, their health, their children, family problems, family and work stress, etc., can make some difference in their scale or level of "passion". In other words, they may not feel the fiery blaze of a newlywed. That's not to say they don't desire each other and have a deep love. There are many things to consider in individual cases. I don't think you can really compare one against the other when you are piecing the M back together.

For me, I had to work at it. The desire did not return as long as I resented my H. I was very angry and even bitter, and let me tell you.......a person better have some spiritual belief system to help get them let it go. The more resentment, the harder it is to let it go.

I prayed, and in fear, that God would help me feel the remorse I knew was necessary. You see, intellectually, I knew .................but emotionally, mentally, and/or spiritually, it would not come. It took a long time for me to get there, b/c I had a fierce amount of false pride that held me back, plus my stinking thinking. Anyway, I spent hours every night reading the posts from LBS who were so broken from the WS. Hearing them express their pain and reading about their situations helped me in ways I really don't know how to explain, except to say it gave me a clearer view of what I had done to my H.
When I finally felt true remorse, I swallowed my stupid pride and went to my H with a genuine broken heart and humility for the anguish and pain I had caused him. (I still feel responsible for his health breaking so badly right after the time of discovering my A). It was after I felt remorseful and told my H, that I started to actually feel the love stirring in my heart.

Life will always present challenges, regardless of our age, and how long or short a time we've been together. Life can throw things at us to derail our intimate relationships. That's why we cannot depend upon emotional feelings, alone, to always tell us how another person feels.

"You never reach the point you no longer need to work on your M.........if you want to have a good one". Quote by my grandmother who was M about 65 yrs.

[Coconut]

So our fun night out will be midnight bowling... She asked me what I'd like to do, and I jumped on the opportunity to make a decision, and had already decided that it would be a fun activity that doesn't border on romantic. I haven't done it since I was a teen, but they turn the lights off, turn neon lights on, have a dj and laser light show, it's like being in a club but bowling instead of dancing.

[Zephyr]

sounds fun nut. enjoy yourself!

[Coconut]

Ok, so while getting ready to go out (she's still getting ready), i realized I don't really want to do this. We haven't gone out together for the last few months, and for the first time since this whole mess started, I'm the one who doesn't want to spend time with her. Oh well, I'm gonna suck it up and try and be fun..

I can't believe I'd rather be going with friends, I shoulda made this an outing for me instead of us.

[Coconut]

Yep, that was as bad as I was afraid it was gonna be... I just didn't want to talk to her, I did, but I think it showed that I wasn't feeling it... It also seemed like she wasn't into it, she's the extrovert in our R, but it was me joking and making conversation. Oh well, maybe one day, or maybe not..

Is it strange that I want to have sex with her, but I don't want to talk to her... Or is that just the man in me thinking that's how I'll get emotionally attached? I think Sandis right, it's amazing that humans ever had babies... Woman want to talk and be emotionally connected before ML, and guys need to start with that to want to talk... Oh well, another day, we will see how I feel tomorrow.

The good thing is, with me being confident there is no OM, I'm finding it real easy to go out and do my own thing, maybe that will help me detach, cause I know I'm not there yet.

The main issue I'm having to work through is a girl who recently started working in my office. She's worked for my company for awhile, I only met her once before about 6 months ago, and she was flirting with me then, but I shut that down quick because it wasn't somewhere I woulda even considered going, but with all of this happening, now I find myself thinking about her. It's crazy, she's like 15 years younger than me, shes smokin hot and I know it's the wrong thing to be Thinking about, but I can't help myself from wondering.

I applied for a position out of state at our HQ, I did it before she came around, thinking it would be an emergency exit if I needed it. It would be hard working with my wife if we headed to D. I think I have a good chance at the position, it's a big raise with a lot of growth potential, hopefully it takes a few more weeks before they make a decision, cause if they called me right now I think I would take it...

Grrr, emotions running high, not crying and despair, just thinking about what Zeus said and not sure I want to stay with her and risk it happening again. She hurt me bad, and I feel a lot of anger...

[Coconut]

Lol, I certainly have a flair for the dramatic... Maybe it's when I have a few drinks that my writing is all over the place, although I want to say my actions are a lot more even keel..

Ok, so maybe I was hoping last night would be the best night ever, let me know for sure that this is all worth the end result, maybe I was hoping I would see my W as the sweet and innocent person I always saw her as... I don't know why I felt like I did, but it wasn't really so bad.

Anyway, when we went to bed, she said that she enjoyed it, that it was the kind of low key night she needed, laid her head on my shoulder then started a tickle war... Which isn't really fair because I'm extremely ticklish and she's barely ticklish, but it was fun, the kind of fun I needed... It was nice to really laugh.

Today is the BBQ with her class, and I am finding myself hoping she will act a certain way, I really need to stop with the expectations.. I need to focus on me, and hope I can act the way I want to, make sure I have fun, I don't want my behavior to be dependent on how she's acting... To accept responsibility for my own happiness regardless of what she does, to be the man I want to be..

I also need to sort through why I was thinking of the girl at work yesterday, is it just a way for me to feel like I'll have someone else to cling to if we don't work out, am I using the thought of another girl liking me as an ego boost, or is it subconsciously a way to get revenge? I've been reading about being the nice guy, I definitely have some of those traits, primarily preferring friendship with woman over men, are my thoughts just a longing for a friend to be nice to in hopes of getting happiness back? I got some things to figure out.

[BluWave]

I wanted to jump in here and validate some of your thoughts and feelings; I think it is all completely normal and par for the course. It would make sense that you are more able to detach now, because you are not anxious about her A. You are not attracted to her because she just hurt you and betrayed you! (Her and OM exchanged I Loves Yous and Kisses--yuck!) Going out with her is not going to be fun and easy because a lot has happened, and this was your first date since it all. So take it easy on yourself. I would be more concerned if everything was "perfect" because then you would be stuffing your feelings. That is a dangerous path.

I know my sitch is different (WH left me for a year and had an R with a friend and now we have been piecing for a year), but I will say, I can relate to a lot of what you are saying. When H was in the fog, I was struggling to detach and DB, because my mind was stuck on IF/when he would come back. As soon as he came back came the biggest sigh of relief, but that is short lived. Now I had to look at this person with a new set of lenses, "wait, you did what!?!"

Another thing that stood out was that you are questioning your attraction to someone else. I went through that too but never acted on any of it. Now I am glad I didn't because that would have only complicated things more. Even though we have been piecing for 13 months, I can say with confidence now, that this will work--because we both make that choice each day. You are still early on, so try not to put too much pressure on yourself to figure this all out. It takes time--maybe not as long as it took for me, but certainly more than a few weeks.

She devastated you and betrayed you and I think you have every right to be hurt, angry, and question if you can trust her--not just trust that she won't cheat again, but trust that she is committed to you and the M for the long haul. Let's face it, what kind of man would you be if you were okay with what she did? That being said, you don't have to act on all those questions and fears. It is okay to simply accept that this is how things are today, and this week, and maybe for a few months. The M will evolve and change over time, and it is okay to admit it's not very good right now. I agree with you that it is easier to detach once they are back; I just started really being able to detach and that is one year into piecing.

So just to explain why, I think it is because I had so much hurt and resentment for what he had done, so all the triggers and going to MC every week, just kept opening up those wounds. Now we are making a conscious choice to take a step back from working on things and start each focusing more on ourselves. And you know what the result is? Less overthinking, less anxiety and pressure, and it is finally starting to feel natural.

I am not sure if any of that helps. I do think you are on the right track tho. And I do think detachment is important in any R and at any time. Always put number one first and that is YOU. .... And if you are truly a Nice Guy, all the more reason to learn to better self love, and do it today!

-Blu