Uncharted Waters

[Sotto]

That's interesting HaWho. Shortly before BD (and when his A was underway) XH told me a story about a colleague of his. This guy had been M for years, and was serially unfaithful. He and his W separated a number of times due to this, and presumably there was massive heartache all round. Ultimately, they decided to stay together in a sort of open M and this seemed to be working for them (him?)

The thing is, XH told me this story as though it was a kind of success story that might be emulated or aspired to.....ugh...

Xx

[bttrfly]

2T lots going on over there, eh! You are definitely handling this well, God bless you! Geez, do the MLC fun and games never end?

BIL is unconscionable. Instead of trying to help his family (you and H) work through your problems - even if that meant shutting his mouth and staying out of it - he deliberately drove the wedge deeper. I'm glad he's gone. Too bad FIL can't see what's really going on here.

As for H ... time will tell, I guess. I'm glad you have IC tomorrow (or is it today?). You're doing great, but it's always nice to have a place to go to talk about this stuff with a neutral party face to face.

hang in there 2T xoxoxo

[2Times2Many]

It's interesting to me that your h is still just sane enough to hold onto this business meanwhile making all sorts of other completely insane decisions. The way he brought on his brother so that he can run off and play? It's interesting to see the way he's making logic based decisions with pure emotions.

HaWho, he's made a lot of dumb decisions. There have been many times that I've had to function (business-wise) in spite of him instead of with him and some of those financial hoops I had to jump through were because of him. Same with BIL, but I don't have to deal with that issue any longer.

I find it interesting that in both our cases (and many others), the roles seem to be reversed. I mean women are supposed to make emotional decisions and men are supposed to be the ones to make logical, unemotional decisions.

I don't know about your H, but for the past few years mine will make a split second decision (that he usually comes to regret) out of pure emotion. I, on the other hand, have learned through all this to think things through, consider the possible outcomes, etc. before committing to a plan of action (or inaction). I find it fascinating.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by. I always value the input and perspective I get from all the wonderful people on this board.

[[[HUGS}}}
2T

[2Times2Many]

This may be long and rambling, but it's time to purge the brain in a safe way and among people who get it. My apologies in advance.

My appt with the IC didn't go as well as I had hoped. I left feeling a little agitated which is totally opposite of how I usually feel.

When exploring why I even still want H in my life, I mentioned financial security. She started giving me advice on investing and suggestions on safe places to put money and derive an income from it. It put me off.

When I told her I had allowed H to stay at my place, she gave me a disapproving look and I got the distinct impression that she didn't "approve."

I'm starting to feel like I have "outgrown" her and maybe it's time to stop seeing her. Sometimes I feel like she thinks I should just pull the trigger on a D and move on. I'll see how this goes for a while, I suppose. If I continue to get these vibes, I'll stop seeing her.

A couple of interesting convos with employees this week.

Apparently H was telling the new manager (who is actually our oldest employee and is pretty familiar with our sitch) that he enjoyed the single lifestyle. He said he had a bunch of single friends that never wanted to M and enjoyed the freedom of a single lifestyle. H said he did too and he was part of a singles group that was very active. (Part of a single's group? That says a lot about where his mind is.)

Employee said she told him that kind of lifestyle may be fun until you reached a point that you just couldn't do it anymore ... keep up the pace. She said at some point, most people want a companion they can grow old with and can rely on to be there when they're needed. She told him that in spite of the challenges she'd had in her marriage, she loved being married and it was comforting to know that no matter what she might be doing, her H was right there in the next room and could be there for her if she needed him and vice-versa.

I was also working with a couple of male employees and the discussion turned to social activities and what we all did on the weekends, etc. One of the things H has criticized me for is my reluctance to go to a restaurant (other than fast food) and have dinner alone. H has said it's odd and he doesn't understand why I have a problem with that. He brings that up a lot ... so much so that I began to think this is a hurdle I HAVE to conquer.

Well, both of these guys said they hated going to a restaurant alone and avoid it. One said, "Yeah, people see me sitting there alone and think ... oh, he got stood up." The other said he feels uncomfortable because what else is there to do but stare at the wall or other people? He said "I can't bury my face in my phone for the whole time."

It was such a relief to hear that. I'm not strange! Even guys sometimes have a problem with that!

One of the things that always gets me down when H is here is that he implies there is something wrong with me because I don't have a gaggle of friends and I don't have the opportunity to go out every night of the week like he claims he does. He keeps pushing, saying you should join a group, make friends you can do things with. He keeps implying I would be happier if I had a non-stop social life like he does. Maybe he thinks I'll meet some guy to take his place???

Obviously, I have friends and we do have girl's night out fairly regularly, but I don't have this need to be always on the go. I don't have the need to have 100's of casual friends. A few closer friends is more up my alley. H also has no clue how much time I spend alone and how much I spend with friends since he's not here enough to know and I don't tell him all my activities.

When he starts down that road, it's hard to bite my tongue and not defend myself, although I'll keep trying. I don't know if it's a misjudgement on his part or justification for leaving me. Probably a little of both. Or maybe it's the hope I'll find another man among those new friends?

One thing I find amusing is H will say he can go out with friends every night of the week if he wants to. Then later he'll say he might decide he wants to go out for a beer and may have to call 5 or 6 people before finding someone who's available to join him. Or, he'll post a message to his "chat group" that he will be at such-and-such place if anyone wants to meet him there. He said someone usually shows up, but there have been times he just sat there alone. Seems kind of sad to me. I just can't imagine what it would be like to say, "Hey, I'll be at x tonight if anyone wants to join me" to a bunch of "friends" and have no one show up. Ouch.

I'm still giving thought to why I even still want H in my life and why I'm still trying to save the R. I think part of it is that I know what a great guy he once was and how well he treated me. Then the question becomes a "what if." What if I gave up too soon? What if I had just given him a little more time? What if that good guy, that I believe is buried in all that muck somewhere, fights his way back to surface? What if he wakes up and wants to R but I've moved on with a new life or someone new? It's all that stuff that there are really no answers to.

Then I wonder if that "good guy" is just below the surface and he's just focusing the goodness on others?

Then I think about some of the stuff he's told me he's done over there. The most recent ... punching out some guy on the side of the road because of a driving dispute (road rage). That's the angry, replay H and obviously he's still lurking around. The good guy doesn't appear to be making a significant appearance over there either.

By the way, when relating that particular incident, he said he had friends in the car with him. He thinks he showed them that he has no problem standing up for himself and that they were impressed with that. My thought was, "No. I suspect they thought you were some kind of lunatic. I suspect they may be rethinking their friendship with you, just as I'm wondering why I would want someone like that in my own life."

I do want to note that that is totally uncharacteristic of pre-MLC H. He may have gotten agitated and given the guy the finger, but he never would have stopped and gotten physical.

It's all a little discouraging. I really thought we were making some progress; that there were some baby steps toward reconnecting. Now that doesn't really appear to be the case.

I feel like I tried being his "friend" and put a little of myself out there for him ... cracked the door a little wider and he took that to mean it was safe to push me into letting him have his cake and eat it to. I'm wondering if my "softening" (for lack of a better word) led him to think I'd be more agreeable to his outrageous D proposal. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the whole thing. IDK. But, I'm thinking the approach I took was a cheeseless tunnel. I don't quite know what to do from here.

I suppose that's enough rambling. Sorry this was so long. So many thoughts spinning around in my head.

Before I go, "Bad Moms" is a funny, funny movie and well worth the price of a ticket!

Hope everyone has a great weekend.
2T

[mleigh4]

Hi 2T,

First of all, I too hate to eat alone at restaurants. I have done it a couple of times, and sat at the bar where there is a tv to watch. Otherwise, it's the wall or your phone! Lol. But when I go out to eat with friends, I always see people eating alone. I admire them for being able to, I don't think down on them at all.

I LOVE alone time. I have many nights where I don't have my son, and I think about calling a friend, but decide to make myself dinner and watch a movie alone. I have always enjoyed it. I think some people always need someone around, for whatever reason, I have never understood that. Take pride in your alone time. Next time your H comments, just tell him, I like hanging out with me!

Your H sounds to be trying to figure himself out still. I am sure many will disagree, but I think being friends is a good thing. Yes, it's cakeeating, I am guilty of letting my H do that. I have tried the complete shutdown and distance with him, but for me, it just didn't feel right. I am not sure why, I am sure someday I will, but it just didn't feel right to me. I have learned how to keep the door open while still moving forward. I too struggle daily, wondering if I even want him back, but in the meantime, we spend time together that I enjoy. It's no guarantee we will work things out, I still am exploring my own feelings towards him, but we have over 16 years of history together. For me, it feels right to be a warm and inviting place to all I love, including H. I think if I shut him out, that would create the "what ifs" down the road. At least I will be able to look back and know he had his chance, I did all I could do.

That's just my opinion based on my own situation. They are all different. It just comes down to what works best and feels right for you. Trial and error is the way to go until you settle into a comfortable place.

Hang in there, you have so many changes going on in your world. You will get your answers, it just goes at a snails pace!

Much love,
M

[HaWho]

2T - sorry about all that happened with the IC. Not fun to go in to IC and feel like you were at Charles Schwab.

Mleigh has already given you great advice. I see all that talk from your h as a form of not being able to see you as different from him. He thinks you think the same way he does as far as needing to socialize. If this is not something you want to change about yourself, I agree with Mleigh: differentiate yourself in a friendly way. Might also be a good truth dart?

As for the going out to eat by yourself, I get that. I too have a whole lot more alone time now than ever. My salvation has been audio books. I am listening to so many amazing books that I would never take time to read. This has been a life savior, particularly at the beach where apparently, if you're there alone as a woman, even with a wedding ring, you are fair game?!? Ew. Sometimes I put my headphones in when I am not listening to anything! It's like flashing a sign: I am not hear to talk to anyone!

Thinking of you!

[2Times2Many]

M, I agree that being friends is a good thing. And I thought it was paying some tiny dividends, but it seems like things took some giant leaps backwards. One thing was that I knew he had friends here in town but he seemed to want to hide his activities with them from me or mislead me about spending time with them. Why? I have no clue.

The last time he was here, we had some very enjoyable times together. This time, not so much. I'm trying to give him some slack. His friends were here and he wanted to entertain them. Then there was the blow-up with BIL and his family and the changes at the office that all that caused. I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but none of that is conducive to enjoyable times, so I suppose I shouldn't be too discouraged given the circumstances.

One thing that's bothered me this time is that he's always talked about getting a D, but for quite some time he's spoken as though it was something that would happen sometime in the future. He didn't seem to be in a big hurry. Now he's back to pushing harder for one sooner and I'm going to assume it's because of OW2. He was the same way with OW1 and things calmed down re D after that fell apart. Now all of a sudden, a D on a faster timeline is important. I just hope she's pressuring him because that's why he dumped OW1.

Anyway, I'm going to use your line that I like hanging out with me because it's right on the money. I wonder if he's ever considered that I might think his lifestyle is a little strange (among a multitude of other adjectives)? No, of course not.

HaWho, I've been thinking a lot about his socializing comments. The way I see it is this. He thinks that being involved in all these non-stop social activities is living life in a big and fun manner and if I would just socialize the way he does, I'd be living life in a happy way like he is. The thing is, he lives his life that way but still talks about finding happiness.

I view that kind of activity as an escape and I know that I may have fun while participating, but when I get home or wake up the next morning, whatever problems I may have will still be there. Non-stop distractions won't fix those problems. It's just a method to avoid facing and solving them. There is a balance. But a teen-age or frat boy mind doesn't understand that sooner or later, you have to face your issues. You can't run from them forever.

But this visit wasn't a total bust. It gave me some things to think about and more avenues to grow.

HaWho, I think a wedding ring is sometimes seen as a challenge!

[2Times2Many]

You know, I keep thinking about H throwing a coffee cup across the room and the story he told me about punching some guy out in a moment of road rage.

I'm thinking he has serious anger and control issues.

He was never like that before, but now I'm actually kind of afraid of him. He could have launched the cup at me (as I challenged his truthfulness). He's never done anything to me physically, but he doesn't seem to be able to control himself and I fear that if I cross his line, he won't be able to control himself. I've never thought he'd do anything to physically harm me, but those incidents make me wonder about his self-control.

I'm thinking I should rescind my offer to let him stay here.

That is NOT the kind of guy I want to be around. He kind of scares me.

[job]

The anger does tend to come out quite often while they are in crisis. Keep in mind, MLC is all about emotions and they can't keep them in check. Eventually that anger will slowly slip away...but not for a long time.

If you think that you may have a problem w/him staying there, then choose a time to tell him it might be best if he stayed elsewhere.

[2Times2Many]

I will probably let him stay here, Job, unless when he's here I see some sign that it's not safe. At that point, I'll ask him to leave. A coffee cup thrown in my home (or something similar) and I will have no problem kicking is a$$ out.

I noticed today that he left some laundry (which I will ignore) in the guest room, so I assume he's planning to stay here when he comes back.

But here's the funny thing for now. He's been asking daily when we talk at the office if things are better for me now that BIL is gone and expressing his concerns about how BIL's replacement is doing (she's doing fine and I have a lot of confidence in her).

I sent him an update email yesterday (first contact I've initiated since he left and the last for a while) and wonder of wonders, he replied via email ... I usually just get a text saying he got my email. He seems to be trying to spin things as though he wanted to get rid of BIL for some time for MY benefit and what happened was for the best ... for ME! I fear he will try to justify that whole business as a sacrifice he made for ME. And, he's still trying to pour on the praise for what I do. I'm sorry H, your credibility is in the tank and I'm not accepting the blame for bringing on BIL and that not working out.

I feel like he put his eggs in BIL's basket and now he has to put them back in my basket. My Momma didn't raise a fool! That may not be good DB'ing, but I think H has seen me as his "cash cow" for a lot years and thought BIL could replace me. Next?

It's so sad the state our R has come to. For H it's all about money. I'm beginning to wonder if he's always been this person and he was wearing a mask for the first ten years of our marriage? I'm growing very weary of dealing with his chit. Although I would like him in my life (and I wonder why at this point because I don't really like who he's become), I don't need him. Maybe it's hard for me to turn my back on someone I care about, but at some point you have to get past that and take care of yourself. I'm approaching that point.

I took my car in today for repair and it was a minor fix. No charges and only took 30 minutes. Yeah. That gave me lots of time to come home and chill.

I've been nursing a stiff neck and shoulders all week. Guess I slept wrong. I'm shuffling pillows around to try to solve that and making good use of the whirlpool tub. I probably could use a good massage. If it doesn't clear up this weekend, I'll try to get to one of the local spas for a massage.

I'm a big time college football fan (especially for "my" team), so I'm looking forward to a Saturday of games in a few weeks. My Saturdays are about to get very entertaining and distracting!

My sister was in and out of the hospital again with pneumonia. She's home now but I wonder how long she can keep this up. Her health has really declined this year.

I haven't heard from any of the in-laws so I have no idea how MIL is doing. If H has heard from them, he hasn't mentioned it. I suspect he hasn't. That whole sitch is so sad and I hate that things are in the state that they are, but I can't fix it. It is what it is and up to H to fix.

Wishing everyone a great weekend.

2T