Hello BluWave and Rose888 and all DBers, Thank you so much for your concern and thinking of me and my meeting with H last Saturday. Between sleep deprivation and just taking a break from thinking about it all, haven't posted until now. The long and short of it is, it went better than I expected. I took almost the entire morning to meditate, read my DB coach notes and get my head and heart in the right space. I had a few mantras as well to keep my mind on track, one from DR book - 'how would I act if I expected a positive outcome?' I have to leave for work soon but will give a brief synopsis! For starters, I got to the cafe first - there's an outdoor area with a little stream running by so I got a table as far away as possible from the cafe and other people which I knew would help me remain calm. That worked. He arrived and walked up and first thing he was give me a big hug. Was NOT expecting that! I also followed the DR advice - let him set the tone and pace of the conversation. Now if you knew me - a couple things to keep in mind - I am a TALKER like the rest of my family, with a tendency to interrupt and not listen. Being honest here! Also, one of my nicknames in our family is 'crying sister' (I am the oldest w 3 brothers). That's the joke, as if my dog runs off, or there's a family situation with my Mom or whatever, I'm always the first to cry. So the fact that I held it together and did not allow myself to get emotional - or to show it when I felt it - is a minor miracle! He talked about how he'd been doing a bit, asked how I was doing. We did agree that we are both on 'healing journeys.' I didn't give a lot of detail but said I was seeing a therapist, had stopped watching the news and was on a spiritual journey in the desert. When there were pauses, I just let them be and waited for him to speak. Another miracle! A side note - my H has suffered from depression for most of his life, some times worse than others. Since last summer he has been healing and coming out of it. But I also realize that this is when it stared to feel like he'd been taken over by an alien, I now realize in hindsight. Irritable, short tempered, sarcastic, bla bla bla. He said he wants to be really close friends, to live on our property together, to go to the river together this summer. I said I needed to think about everything and we are meeting again this Saturday. The only big question I asked was if he was having an affair, I said, cause if you are, it would definitely not work out. He said no. I believe him. It's not his style really. I also said that, just because you decided to leave does not mean I stopped loving you. Maybe not the most skillful comment. He did try a few times to get into a bunch of details about money and bills and I answered his questions but then requested we not go into that too much at that meeting. This was never a great talent of ours to discuss money and I didn't want to get into any topic that could escalate in any way. ok, I have to go. There are most likely things I've forgotten to mention. My gut /heart/ intuition is telling me that developing our friendship IS the way to go. And it's not because I want to GET him back now. In fact, I realized, if he called today and said he wanted to move in together and work on our M I would need more time alone as well. Trying to keep him off our property, where I know he longs to be, I feel would be punitive, which my DB coach said NEVER leads to a good result. I hope you are both doing well and I'll catch up later today. Now I must get clear on my boundaries and how we could make this work in a way that benefits us both. A lot to ponder between now and Saturday. THANKS!!!!!!!!!
Hi Again, Forgot to mention - I discovered this book - Mr Mean about the Irritable Male Syndrome by Jed Diamond. Wow. Wish I'd heard of this a year ago. Explains a lot about what's going on.
Hello DBers, Supposedly meeting my H again tomorrow, waiting to hear back from him. Will be only the second time since he moved out 6 weeks ago. I've been seeing my IC and that is helping a lot. My H wants to live on our property - we have a house and a guest house - and I am considering it. Seems in many ways the best of both worlds, as wouldn't be ready anyhow if he wanted to live together now, and if he isn't here at all will rarely see him. Having a hard time coming up with my needs/boundaries ... as someone who has been a raging codependent much of my life while in a relationship - I said to my IC yesterday, Needs, what are my real needs? The 'people pleaser' and the caretaker aren't used to asking for my needs to be met... or setting boundaries. I've been watching Brene Brown talks and yeah, I understand what they are, but somehow it keeps getting confused in my head with what MWD says in DR about not asking for anything now from a WAH. Not a time to make demands - and I realize boundaries are not demands - any thoughts/help advice would help. I have not really told him yet the ways in which I was unhappy in some areas of our M and how I really feel and have been doing since he left. I've been pretty much 'dark' except for a few emails and our meeting last Saturday. At least I never did all the wrong things - no pursuing etc. at all. But is not even saying how I feel about anything going to the other extreme. I read something interesting about the sequence of events that must occur - in order for him to trust, he must feel safe to want to talk to me, and talk to me before he can enjoy being with me, and feel good around me to want to do things together to get to the point where he would even consider reconciling and working on the M. So I am still early days and don't want to push the issue at all. thanks! so tired, going to bed.
I have no idea what to tell you as far as boundaries go. If you want to post boundaries you are considering, I can provide feedback.
It sounds like you handled the first meeting really well.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
The 'people pleaser' and the caretaker aren't used to asking for my needs to be met... or setting boundaries. I've been watching Brene Brown talks and yeah, I understand what they are, but somehow it keeps getting confused in my head with what MWD says in DR about not asking for anything now from a WAH. Not a time to make demands - and I realize boundaries are not demands - any thoughts/help advice would help.
This was tough for me to figure out, as well, being as co-dependent as I was. As far as the difference between the two? Start thinking about things you wanted to do in the past, but didn't feel you had time for. Things that H didn't enjoy that you did (foods, activities, people, movies, vacation sites). Activities and hobbies or destinations that looked interesting, but you were afraid to do alone or didn't know anyone else to do them with. Peruse Meetup.com, Pinterest or just research on the web and you may find "fellow travellers" or like minded people or sources. Library, city sites, art councils and local colleges are also good sources to experiment with who you are apart from H.
Boundaries, however are not asking for needs to be met as much as creating emotional protection from an H (or W)who is not quite "in". More of a statement. What would bring more discomfort and pain to you in the long run if he "stays out"? For instance, as a caregiver you want to do things for your H. But you will end up feeling used (or sad and wondering why) when he doesn't appreciate it or return the niceness. Set a boundary that you will not, cook, clean, or have anything to do with the guest house. Conversely, he should not be allowed in to the main house without you being there or your permission. Just a suggestion and example, but those are intimacies that maybe should only be for an H and W, and you're not quite back to that? It creates hopes that could lead to pain if he proves to be not ready to be all in yet?
What will help you to break co-dependency? You're habits? What will be the 180 on revolving you're life around his? Those will be your boundaries that you tell him to respect. Dig deep.
My two cents.
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
Hi Ciluzen, Thank you so much for taking time to respond to my post. You have made some very good points and asked some good questions. My heart is 'all in' in terms of moving forward with this idea of sharing our property etc. Was just writing in my journal how in the past I didn't respect my own needs at times. I would take a nap with him on Sunday afternoons - lovely of course - but sometimes just wanted to go walk or ride my motorcycle (I have a dirt bike) and would feel like I was not being true to myself. That is my best barometer - staying centered on what I need to do and doing it, no matter whether or not it will be 'pleasing' to him. The issue I am struggling with today, is that I know it isn't time to ask him a bunch of questions...as giving him a sense of freedom and space is key right now, but so wanting to ask things about what he MEANS when he says he wants to be 'really good friends'. Thank you for describing boundaries as what I need to create to protect myself emotionally. That is a helpful way to think about it. I am going to an IC and doing a lot of work on my inner self and the parts of me that got lost/stuck back when I was 12 years old, the part that wants to cling and is needy that created the foundation for the codependent behaviors. I've had 6 weeks to start separating that part of me from who I really am, and can now easily FEEL when she, that scared little girl, gets triggered and feels she will DIE if she's abandoned. Well, I was abandoned and I didn't die! I've been reading a book called Mr. Mean about Irritable MAle Syndrome by Jed Diamond and really starting to see what my H may be going through and a lot of it has nothing to do with me. So when I am feeling my most centered and loving I know the way forward is to be his friend. I did not bail on our M even if he has for now. I take the vows I made very seriously. My new motto is 'the best is yet to come'. Hopefully this will prove to be true. In terms of 180's...well thankfully I discovered this site and DR book right after he left, and my intuition told me immediately to not pursue etc, in any way. I went totally dark. So at least I've done a lot of the right things. Now I will have the chance to continue on the 180 path...I will think about this and other 180's I can do in the coming weeks. Thank you and I will check out your posts. Another thing about the codependency - I've really looked at and understand how all the defense mechanisms/coping mechanisms I've learned growing up with an alcoholic mother and then sadly brought into my relationships have NEVER brought me anything that I really wanted. VERY clear about that. Only cause pain and problems. Happy weekend!
Hi Rose888, thanks for responding. Well, in my dreams, I ask him that, even though he thinks he is 'done' with the M, we are married and as a way to honor our M and the 15 years we've had together, that he not see any other women while living on our property. I know this is not his main priority in life, as what he said last week and what I know is true from the past year, is that he is on his own 'healing journey' and is more interested in experiencing his soul growth/healing than getting involved in a R with anyone. But when I think of asking this, I just feel it will open a can of worms that screams me telling him what to DO and THAT will definitely not work. I keep feeling the better way to go is to really start developing and building our friendship and see what happens. If he starts to feel safe with me and able to trust his feeling and be vulnerable with me, then we will be going in the right direction. I'm probably overthinking this! That's a tendency I have - my controlling part wants to have him make a bunch of commitments to this or that way of being /doing and then I can feel ok that the future will go the way I want it to. Very aware that this won't work and isn't possible anyway! Really it is all about being clear on what I need in the moment and living from a place of being centered and trusting. That's my challenge. Going for my desert walk now and will ponder the boundaries question. How are you doing????
Oh Dear, Well, I had my second meeting with my H today to discuss the possible living arrangements on our property. While some parts went well, I burst out crying the moment I got back in the car to leave and have been a hot mess ever since. He made it clear once again that we would have to clarify what our relationship is as friends, and even said - 'you're still wearing your wedding ring' - well DUH. Just because he decided to leave doesn't mean I decided I'm not married. That part I don't get. What does he expect me to do, just toss it to the wind? After all my 6 weeks of not pursuing in any way, going dark etc. I feel I made my first backslide today and somehow we ended up on the topic of a big fight we had in Amsterdam 6 years ago! when he threatened to break up... I think I asked - 'I'm curious how you would send me that sweet whatsapp message three days before you decided to leave and then boom.' Oh god, why the hell did I say that!!! Feel so frustrated and sad that he seems to be blaming everything on me and insinuating that he gave me fair warning that if I did X then he would do Y. We talked about things we would do if he does come live here, summer things, river etc. I have to keep remembering it is only 6 weeks since he left. This is NOTHING in the big scheme of things. But am I being stupid to keep doing all this meditating and praying and forgiving and holding on to MY VISION of the future I want to see? He did reiterate that he 'loves me,but not in a big way' He said 'Well don't you look pretty' cause I made an effort to look awesome w my pink summer sun hat...and he bought us ice cream. He is working 50 hours a week, not sleeping enough, living at someone elses house and dealing with the stress of a future with a giant dental bill . He has not had the time that I have had to start healing. I felt so strong the past 10 days, was finally getting my head on straight about my own life and getting excited about my own goals and dreams, but today just felt like I was hurled through a time warp back to day one. But I must say in my own defense, I was calm and cool and confident and not upset at any point. Does the WAS always just assume that just because THEY decided to leave that somehow the LBS has magically also decided that it's over? I don't get that. HELP! Any words of wisdom much appreciated. He seemed more like the alien was in him today - a bit distant and cold and stressed out. I asked about that and he said he was really tired. I've been reading the Mr.Mean book about Irritable Male Syndrome in a further attempt to understand what the heck is really going on. I even took a quiz the writer Jed Diamond has online and my H scored in the highest category. Is there hope he will come out of this MLC? And he mentioned that he 'wasn't looking' but I would have to eventually accept if he started dating - and that I should too. oh dear god. The LAST thing I want right now is date. No thanks honey. What does this all mean? Is there still hope like it says in the DR book, that I shouldn't give up? I can't imagine giving up. I have set my mind on at least a year that I am willing to hold the vision of reconciliation, no matter what my H says. ok, rambling on. off I go into the windy mesa. Going to try to get my head back in the present, cause when I think of the future, and feel overwhelmed at thought of not being with him, today it just makes me feel I'm on the verge of getting hysterical. That's not helpful. THANKSSSSS
Hi Again, And another thing I don't get about all this. Ok, I must admit, I am cycling between really sad and crying and raging angry. Now in the angry bit. How is it that he can think after 15.5 years together that all our M warrants is a note he left and a text and an email in terms of why he left? None of which told me in any real detail why he took such an extreme action? In the note he said 'you say you've changed. I don't experience that. I can't handle the stress on top of the other (work) stress.' The email just said -'I'm done. You can't fix this and I won't process this.' Don't I deserve more than that? Doesn't our R and history deserve more than that? Is this cause hunting. oh dear. I'll shut up now. sorry for the ranting. I am so frustrated as I feel he is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So much happiness is possible if we could get through this and learn and grow from it. But he just seems stuck in his mind on the past and that it could never be different. That's the scary thing. I feel he is stuck in his mind on a fixed idea about our M. I did read something useful the other day by some online marriage site - Don't try to get your WAS to undo a decision they made in the past but to hopefully make a new decision in the future. I will hold onto that for today. bye and thanks, bon soir. a bientot.
Ok. I'm now writing on your thread again. Momentarily forgot that I started out on BW's thread as I was reading your post (you are as wordy as I am!). So, let's look at where you are, right now.
You're emotionally still in a state of shock. That means that your mind is jumping from one idea, memory, plan, emotion, action, etc to another. You have no real focus. You're sad, angry, confused, lonely (maybe a little horny), and scared to death all at once and one at a time, switching and scheming. You want to ask H why, beg, compromise, yell, and maybe even make him feel sorry for you (thoughts of car accidents and severe illnesses pop up-what would he do then?). It will slow down...in time.
Your H has been entertaining thoughts of leaving you for a long time. A LONG TIME. He's had time to detach. That's not to say you are a bad person. If there is even a dust particle of that thought in your head, sweep that sucker out.
But, yeah. There's room for improvement. Allow yourself 50% of the blame in your marriage issue. The other 50% is him. People say not to think about that, but I like to know my opponent (H is not the opponent, BTW. He's the love of your life. His issues are what you're up against). So, take your time to figure him out. What were signs that he was unhappy? He was depressed for years. Was he treated? MLC is just depression coupled with fear of aging. Ok, that might be a little too simple of an explanation, but I don't type well. What has he said in the past that was negative or struck you as odd for him? Clues to his issues. Clues to what set him off about you or your treatment of him, or even what (from his perspective) your behavior reminded him of in the context of an unresolved childhood issue. What do you know of his past and his family? Journal it. All of it. It will create the "web of understanding" that will make it easier not to have angry or emotionally reactive outbursts when dealing with H. I said "help", though. If you read my thread, I have those all the time. Just not as bad or as much.
"The email just said -'I'm done. You can't fix this and I won't process this.' Don't I deserve more than that? Doesn't our R and history deserve more than that? Is this cause hunting. oh dear. I'll shut up now. sorry for the ranting. I am so frustrated as I feel he is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So much happiness is possible if we could get through this and learn and grow from it. But he just seems stuck in his mind on the past and that it could never be different. That's the scary thing. I feel he is stuck in his mind on a fixed idea about our M."
Ok, yes. You deserve better. Yes you are cause hunting (why not?). Yes you are frustrated (you should be). And...YES his mind is stuck. That's depression. So, part two is, you show him he's wrong by changing you. That's why DB says to try 180s. Don't tell him, show him. And guess what? By being co-dependent, we've lucked into the easiest 180 of all...not initiating contact and GAL. Ok, not so easy. But simple. Be different. Be you. Or, as this lady who didn't even have any close friends of her own, try to figure out who "YOU" is (purposeful grammar error). This will be the hard part. Luckily, we have the world of internet. Free classes, meetups, libraries, community activities and events...what do you want to try? Some won't pan out. I exhausted myself filling all of my free time after work and on weekends. But I created new friends, a bigger support group (or at least better) and it took the pressure off of H. He started calling me. Now there's probably too much communication due to our house being sold, but I can be NC on my end soon. And he seems to be dealing with his issues a bit.
MLC is a long haul. Check those boards out, though. Great support and advice. Patience, validation, focus on you being the best you you can be. You've got this.
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
