Take a Number

[HaWho]

My last thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2675574&page=1

Hi all - thanks for checking in on me.

Both my sisters are here and h talks to one sister (his favored one) quite a bit. I do a lot of listening. He did tell my sister how old he is and went on and on about it. My sister said "get used to it. You'll be another year older next year. Work on the things you can change."

The paranoia is very real and he can't hide that at all. He does not eat any of my cooking. Not one bite. The first two nights my family was here I set plates for everyone. H did not touch his food. The first night he had a "stomach ache" and the second he gave no excuse as to why he didn't eat. I was waiting for him to say "I am not eating tonight because she it trying to kill me." Now I set up buffet style dinners and he does not fix himself a plate. Last night he drank tea while we all ate. The night before he was drumming his fingers all through dinner just like an antsy kid at the table. I am pretty sure that was a little boy right there. (The drumming was constant and even my sister asked what that was after he left the room.)

Lots of PA behavior. S12 made crepes for Mother's Day! What a thoughtful boy! H came in and in front of his favorite sister said: "s12, did you make these crepes?" S12 says yes, though sister and I helped him. So h said (very loud so I knew exactly why he accepted this meal): "if you made them, S12, then I will eat them." Very mature.

He is locking his door each time he leaves the house and when he goes in the shower. One day he returned home and my sister and I were on these couches outside the dorm room. He came home, said hi, and started to get his keys out. But then it hit him that my sister was right there. So he set his keys aside and acted like he was there to talk to us. I guess he still feels uncomfortable about unlocking his door right in front of my sister.

He carries on conversations and at times seems so normal to the sister he adores, that she said to me "I am not sure he is depressed." That made me want to throw myself off the roof. I just turned to her and said, "just keep watching" because I am NOT imagining all this.

At one meal, he didn't eat my food (of course, as I am trying to poison him) but he grabbed store bought corn bread and ate it with a fork and knife while we all ate a balanced meal. That shut my sister up real quick. She kept trying to figure out why he ate it with a fork and knife? Maybe he was trying to act like corn bread was a real meal?!?

He did contact me via text about something house related. The text seemed normal until he again accused me of stealing from him. He wrote "good thing you were not able to steal x." I ignored that completely. I think he wants me to defend myself.

A few odds and ends. He declines all invitations to go out with us. He stays home a lot to look like a good boy to my sister who adores him. He put the huge tropical plants outside the house before my sister arrived. He did not put the wedding picture back. The other day at dinner he was staring at it in a kind of "zone out" for a full 30 seconds. He makes zero eye contact with me. If we are in a group and I am talking he won't look at me. He also never comments on anything I say.

Years ago, he told me that as a child, his remembered his mother was a bad cook. He insisted that her cooking made him very sick and he stopped eating it. He said he ate ice cream and cheese sandwiches. I think he is back to that time in his life. The other day he ate a big container of ice cream all in one sitting. It was larger than a pint for sure. S12 was home with h and said "don't eat all that. It's really bad for you."

Also noteworthy is that when he was a little boy, he got very, very sick. I posted this before. He kept asking his mom to take him to the hospital. She wouldn't. I am not sure why. But his takeaway was that she didn't care about him. I tried to counter that maybe, as a young mother she didn't understand the gravity of it. Perhaps she was in denial of the severity. He said no. He deduced that by not taking him to a doctor she was trying to kill him. I can't help but think that there's some crazy projection being hurled my way.

As for the issue of emotional abuse Mleigh, I think anyone dealing with someone in depression, is facing emotional abuse. From the time they are withdrawing and we sense it, the emotional abuse starts. It escalates at BD when all the crazy confused thoughts are finally voiced. And of course all of us are facing neglect and then then the varying degrees of crazy that come skipping along, hand-in-hand with depression.

KML - those are really good questions. I believe my h is in MLC. I hope he will come out of it. I don't know how long this will go on, how much worse he will get, if he'll come out of this and if so, how he'll come out of this. You mentioned trying a different route if I am hoping to r. What did you mean?

The paranoia is bad. He probably thinks I imported my sisters so that when I bump him off they can help me get rid of the body.

[ciluzen]

So, Hawho. After watching this behavior, what do your sisters think?
It does sound like he's revisiting his childhood and maybe trying to replay that time when "his mother tried to kill him".
I wonder if you were to act out the part he has "assigned" to you (that of his mother) and possibly treat him the way he wishes she treated him? Maybe 180 what you have been doing and suddenly treat him like the sick, hurting child he was at the time,and maybe suggest taking him to a doctor? Talk to him about whether he feels sick? Tell him that you are concerned about his not eating...maybe even buy unopened store-bought food that he likes and acknowledge his concerns, but show more that you are concerned about his health? MWD says to experiment. Maybe he's telling you he needs help working through this by having you roleplay his mom. Dunno. Just an out there idea.

[Ginger1]

HaWho,

I don't think anyone dealing with someone with depression is facing emotional abuse. The person who Not everyone who is depressed lashes out the way he does, makes accusations the way he does. And for the sake of argument, even if the cause of his emotional abuse is the depression, it still doesn't make the emotional abuse something they should be exposed to.

My mother was a manic depressive. Her depression was emotionally abusive to me. I didn't realize what kind of number it did on me until later in life. Her worst was when I was in my senior year of high school and my first year away at college right after my dad left. I can't even begin to tell you what I went through. I dropped out of college because I could not even bare to go home to my mother for a summer. I got my own place and my own job. Sure, I was a kid, but I think at any age, the abuse from emotionally depression affects the ones who are in the direct path of it. Sure, we can handle it better when we are adults and older. But I know the best thing for my well being was to take myself out of that situation. The damage could have been so much worse. But again, the effects really didn't become evident until after my divorce.

I know you love him and I know you believe in marriage to the full extent. But this could get worse. Or it could get better, but it rarely gets better until that person decides to help themself.

A different route may be letting him go be on his own. Removing yourself from the direct path of this situation. Removing what he projects on, what he lashes out on, so he has no one to look to but himself. You handle it great, but if the situation he is currently living in doesn't change, you are always right in front of him to be on the receiving end of his emotional abuse, then he can run into his little room and lock his door, what would make him realize there is a problem? What would spark change? He'll just wake up one day and snap out of his depression without any help and stop all the craziness?

I know this is the stuff you don't want to hear and might not agree with. But I haven't known of anyone on the boards who just snapped out of it one day without a major change. I would also hate to see you suffer ill consequences of his depression and emotional abuse. Even though you have a good handle on it.

[kml]

You know, the paranoia you are describing is definitely outside the norm for "typical " MLC. The fact that he had a similar episode as a child is interesting. What illness did he turn out to have then? Maybe there's a connection other than the psychological one. His dietary restrictions as a child sound like the result of paranoia and/or OCD. Autoantibodies from strep infections can be one cause of OCD.

Severe depression can sometimes include paranoia or psychosis. Eating disorders can include other OCD manifestations and delusional thinking. B12 deficiency can manifest as paranoia. Some rare degenerative diseases can also present with unusual behavior changes, but I think the fact that he had such a similar sounding episode as a child makes that unlikely.

Also stimulants like diet pills, speed and cocaine cause paranoia. Hyperthyroidism can cause psychosis and irritability.....is he unusually warm?

His behavior is definitely unusual. I like the idea of buying a few more prepared sealed foods to see if he'll eat them. Maybe don't mention it to him though, or he might think you're trying to trick him and have injected them with something. And watch for other signs of OCD ( tapping, counting, excessive hand washing, checking, preferring certain numbers).

What kinds of physical ailments does he have, and what runs in his family? There may be clues there.

[job]

Oh my! He's been a busy little boy and yes, he's reliving the time he was a little boy and got sick.

His paranoia is at an all time high and I can't even imagine what your family thinks now. He moved the plants outside? Now that's crazy and he should have left them right where they were. I hope you took photos to show your sisters.

Poor boy, he's a bit of a basket case at meal time. Such a shame to even think someone would want to poison him. Who eats corn bread with a fork? Evidently he doesn't have an issue w/store bought items...just the things that you create...but he's not thinking...if you wanted to poison him, you could inject something into the corn bread! He's really out there.

There's nothing you can do to reassure him about his safety. He'll just have to work through it on his own. If he gets hungry enough, he'll eat.

Crepes was a very nice Mother's Day surprise. I'm sure you and your family enjoyed the day and I do hope that the rest of the time that they are there he'll behave himself...but I think the drama will continue until he actuallys works up the nerve to leave.

I'm so sorry he's escalating...but he is in the eye of the storm (replay) and it may get worse before it gets better.

Thinking of you and your family and hope that the visit, in spite of his behavior, is still a nice one.

[Sotto]

I used to work with someone who had been poisoned as a little girl. She ate flowers in the garden which had been sprayed with pesticide and had a long spell in hospital as a toddler.

The experience left her with some long term issues about food sadly. If we went out for a meal, she would come along but not eat. She would eat packaged things if she could open them herself and so on. It was such a shame and she was in her 40s when I worked with her.

Do take care HaWho. I am concerned that things seem to be ramping up in your sitch and your wellbeing and that of the kids are the primary things here. Though you do seem to deal well with things I must say.

Take care xx

[mleigh4]

Hi HW. You have been handling it all so well, I really do applaud your loyalty and patience. I guess I just worry about what effect his behavior will have on you and the boys, not just now, but in the long run too. If his behavior is allowed and not addressed, will it keep him from realizing something is off? I find it hard to believe this just goes away on its own, without professional help. So at what point is that spoken and suggested?

Just my thoughts, again, you know your world better than anyone and seem very intelligent....it just seems that this is escalating, how far will it go? I hope this helps him to see some of what he is doing and thinking, and I am glad your sisters are there for you.

Take care of yourself and boys

[Esame]

HaWho I'm sorry about the escalating madness. I think his behaviour is so extreme now that he should actually seek help. You are doing amazingly well considering how crazy he has become, how are the boys coping?

[melweb]

HW--I am worried about you and the boys, too. His MLC seems to have taken on a life of its own. Please take care.

[job]

HaWho,
Your h's behavior is escalating, i.e., very similar to what my xh did. If he continues to escalate, you will need to make some decisions about what you will or will not tolerate when it comes to his behavior around you and your sons. His paranoia is getting worse. Be careful around him when he comes out swinging and angry. They aren't able to control that anger and I would hate to see him get physical w/you or the boys.

Please take care of yourself.

[bttrfly]

Hi Ha Who,
I am with Mleigh - you know your world best, however I have to say this new development is a bit concerning. The people who need the most help are often those thinking others are the problem. Your husband seems like a good example of that.
I also agree with you about the emotional abuse. Only you can decide when enough is enough with the status quo and that it's time to do something different.

Is there something wrong with his thyroid? I ask because both hypothyroid and hyperthyroid can cause psychosis. When was his last physical? Is there some way to plant the idea of getting a checkup in his head while making him think it's his idea? Xoxoxo

[mleigh4]

Just adding to a few people, this may be something physical and not just MLC. Remember, we can't diagnose them. I think suggesting a physical is a great idea.

[HaWho]

Hi all - just a quick post as I have only a few minutes.

KML - he had pneumonia as a child. But by the time he was taken to the hospital he was gravely ill and he knew it.

Unlike some in MLC, he is on top of his doctor's appointments. A month ago, I left his mail on his desk and there was a copy of his latest blood results. Everything was within the normal range. But I don't remember seeing if they tested his TSH level.

I am open to suggesting he see a doctor, but man, I am just not sure how he'll take it. And I am not sure how much to say as he truly thinks I am the problem.

Someone asked about what my sisters think of all this. One sees the depression and thinks the only way to help is to shake things up and see if I can wake him up. The other (the one he's been very chatty with) sees him as being very normal oftentimes. That mask is plastered on for her. But she saw the dishes in the garbage last week and read the text with her own eyes so she also is trying to wrap her head around it all.

H sent me a text this morning. He politely asked me to watch my spending this month! It is a fraction of what he spent last month but high for me as my car needed worked, the shampooing vacuum broke (repaired that) and I had to buy food/prepare for two house guests.

I found it reassuring that he is looking at the accounts. His text was not tit-for-tat but more like he is trying to say "I am being more fiscally responsible." He hasn't spent anything since "our talk."

I explained where I spent the money and told him things will calm down once I return from NYC. Again, it's a pittance compared to what he spent on himself last month.

I found his interest noteworthy given that he told me to do my thing and he would do his thing until fall. Hmm.

[HaWho]

BTW - forgot to post one other important detail.

Although the paranoia may be compounded by something physical, I still believe it could be linked to MLC. He told me that as a kid he had locked himself in his closet to get away from all that was going on in his childhood home. And he has called his dorm room his "closet." I wonder if he hasn't taken control back of his recreated environment by putting a lock on there. And then, as a kid, he would leave the house as much as possible.

So I see HUGE parallels. I know it sounds nuts but I think he has replicated his childhood home and environment as much as possible. Even early on, post BD he told me I could go do x, y and z. They were some crazy things I would NEVER do. But they were all things his mother did when he was a kid. I did say to him: "I am not your mother and I would never do those things for one day of my life."

[job]

HaWho,
You can shake things up, but it won't wake him up. He has to do that on his own. As for suggesting he see a doctor, I wouldn't do so. However, I would inquire in a roundabout way how his last visit went...but that's one you will need to determine when to do so. He may tell you and then again, he may not. They truly do not think that there is a whole lot wrong w/them and I have a feeling your h doesn't see anything wrong w/himself at this time.

As for the spending...did his parents spend a lot of money on stuff and didn't save or spend it on the kids? Maybe that is where the concern is coming from on the money front. Then again, he may be wanting to ensure that there is money in the account for his spending pleasure.

As for his dorm room and paranoia, yes, it's all part of the mlc. What has happened is that your h has moved into the next phase of is replay actions and paranoia can and will escalate if they think someone is invading their space. What can you do, reassure him at some point that you aren't going to invade his space and the food that you are preparing is being eaten by the rest of the family w/no indication of anyone getting sick from it. All you can do is reassure him. The old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it" is so true w/these crisis people.

Now, the dorm room, is his childhood closet. He feel safe in there and doesn't have to deal w/reality while in there. In his mind, you are his authority figure, i.e., mother. He is looking to you to see if you will be like his mother...NOT! He is doing everything humanly possible to bait and test you and when he finally gets it that you aren't going to behave like his mother, he may very well stop some of the crazy behavior. However, if he gets to far out in left field, call him on it right then and there. He's acting out like a child and you certainly would call them on their behavior right then and there when it occurs.

I'm keeping you and your family in my thoughts and prayers as the seas of MLC are very rough right now. I hope that once your family leaves and you've returned from NY, things will settle down.

Dig deeper for patience because you are definitely going to need it for a while. Good luck!

[HaWho]

Thanks Job. I have no intention of trying to wake him up. I know it can't be done. I was really just answering what my sisters thought. And really, I am not sure they believe in MLC. I can't blame them. Prior to this, I wouldn't have believed it myself. The sister who thinks I should shake things up? She says I should throw something slinky on and just appear before him. I said nothing. It just showed me that they don't really get the gravity of it all. Uh, no. A romp in the hay will not fix this. But thanks.

The other sister hinted that maybe I caused this because I went through my own depression. She was trying to help. She wants to believe it's smaller than what it is. I was able to turn to her and assert that I did not cause this. And I know I did not. That was a nice change in me as I did blame myself for so very long. But, seeing what I have seen, he is back in a different time in his life and I am his mother not his wife and not his friend. And I can see that right now, he hates me as he hated his mother.

Speaking of his mother, yeah, she's always spent too much. Way too much and way beyond her means. I was raised completely the opposite. We were first generation and poor but if we didn't have the money, we didn't buy it. I feel safe with money in the bank; his mother feels safe with constant retail therapy.

Many, many moons ago, when I saw that my MIL was medicating through shopping, I suggested we do a secret Santa, which is what my family does. We buy for the kids, but for the adults, you draw one name out of a hat and buy 1 meaningful gift capped at $50. When I suggested it, kindly, she started to cry! She was in her 50's at this point. We are polar opposites. I have absolutely nothing in common with her.

There are many other parallels I see. I know he is back in time working out things with his mother.

I too wonder how much of this was brought on by the anxiety of family visiting. It's too bad it has been so hard on him. But it has been good for me as I need the support. And my kids have needed some Auntie doting, too!

Let's see what happens once everyone is gone.

[bttrfly]

Hi HaWho ... What resonates here with me is the parallels to your H's childhood. I see the same thing with my husband. The vitriol he has spewed at me is exactly directed at his father. In our case, my H has reverted to the most traumatic time in his life, which was his parents divorce when he was a young teen and his father's re-marriage and subsequent new family with a school friend's mother. He has said things to me that make no sense in any other context - meaning he's really saying them to his father, with me in that role. The most telling was a passionately angry, "you have ignored me and made me feel unloved for years!!!" which is so completely how his dad made him feel and completely NOT consistent with the behavior of a wife who doted on him. There are other examples I've experienced as well, which all add up to tell me that my H is approximately 10-15 years old, at any given time. There is a part of me - what the Buddhists would call the Fiercely Compassionate part - which understands he's created this to heal from his deepest hurt, and I do feel that he's doing it with me because on some level I'm the one he trusts most to help him heal from this deepest wound. Perhaps that is also true of your H.

Re: doctor, maybe next time he's talking about his age, one of your sisters could say that there are specific tests recommended when one turns 50 and has he made an appointment for his physical? Might be easier coming from someone else and in that context although with the paranoia, who knows?

Again, you know your situation better than anyone, and you also know how much you can handle. We are here for you whenever you need us. Sending massive hugs your way xoxoxoxo

[HaWho]

Hi Bttrfly - thanks for the post and the advice. And I agree that they often project heavily onto their spouses.

So the little boy came out today and in front of my sisters! They have been shocked and mystified by how rebellious he has become. But today they saw the cute, little huggable boy. And even they could not deny what their eyes showed them.

I was making dinner: steak, cheesy potatoes and roasted vegetables. Dinner was almost ready. S12 requested this meal this week and it happens to be a favorite of h's, too. It's a household favorite. Both sisters said he would eat this and not be able to resist. I begged to differ.

H comes in as we are helping ourselves to the buffet style dinner. He asked the sister he is closer to if she would like an English muffin with butter. She pauses and is caught off guard. She says no, that she prefers this well balanced meal. And she suggests he too should eat a well balanced meal. (She is talking to him like he is 14 and making poor dietary choices.)

I am fixing my plate and the same sister is at the table with h. She tells him he should eat. He says no. He is resilient and fixes no plate for himself. She shakes her head at him and they just stare at each other.

At dinner h lashes out saying that his food as a kid was really bad. That they had no money. (I think he is jealous that my kids have good food. So odd! But he is comparing heir food to his.) We all listen but there is a lot of anger in it and none of us really know what to say so we just listen. Before we are all done eating h is up out of his chair, antsy like S10. He goes outside and then seems antsy when he comes in again. He talks to S10 who is playing by himself. And it so reminds me of the adults talking/eating while the kids play. S12 stays at the table with the adults.

One funny thing is that when h said he would not eat, one sister said he looked like he was salivating over the dinner. The other jokingly asked if he was dieting. Then she again said to him that he should eat a healthy meal. S12 started to do the airplane feeding thing with h and we all laughed. It was quite a fitting feeding process given his mental age these days. H took it in stride. That surprised me.

After dinner he is back in his closet. The sister who is close to him says to me that the bad food comment was a cry for help. I agree.

We all decide to take the dog for a walk and I invite h. Usually he just gives a curt no. This time he says something interesting. He says in a rejected tone, "no, I will just be taking attention from the boys." The sister who is closer to him overhears and gets saucer eyes. She recognizes this is not an adult. I say: "come, there is plenty of attention for you." He is silent. And my sister says: yes, we are all going and we are paging you." (I wish I had gone in and given him a hug. If he says this sort of thing again, I will be ready.) Instead we jokingly paged him like we would do for a kid that needed to be laughed out of a bad mood.

He does come. He talks a little. We joke with him a bit. Sometimes he is warm and sometimes his is aloof. He is like a boy getting over a slight.

He made a flash of eye contact with me this morning and gave me a quick, kind of fake smile. Otherwise he is still ignoring me completely.

And we solved the mystery on why the plants were moved outside. H told favored sister that they are supposed to purify the air. (Remember he positioned them outside his room!!!) But he said they smelled bad so he moved them outside. How funny is that?

[Irish M]

Hi HaWho

Wow having your sisters witness your H's MLC age. That must be so reassuring that he is really in MLC. I know a lot of spouses here have 9/10 MLC symptoms from the checklist but we always have small doubts. Maybe it is me, maybe he's ok and this is who they truly are.

He is surely reliving his traumas as a child . Hopefully he will leave his Dorm (closet) and rejoin his family


Hugs
Irish

[bttrfly]

validation is a beautiful thing!!! seems like you are getting glimpses of where he is at. xoxoxoxo

[kml]

Seriously, paranoia and possibly an eating disorder. (There are types of OCD eating disorders where people will only eat white foods, or canned foods, or in your H's case, non-poisonable food).
The scene at the dinner table reminds me of when my daughter had anorexia. She would have wanted the food, and her rational mind would have told her it would be healthy to eat it, but the eating disorder would override that with obsessions about her weight (she got down to 88 lbs).

Has he ever had any OCD symptoms in the past?

[job]

He is comparing his childhood to that of his own sons. I mentioned to you before that he was resentful and jealous of his sons, the attention they are getting, etc. I believe that his childhood has been revealed to all of you. More and more of his childhood is coming out to play and be revisited while your sisters are there. He is crying for help and attention. He wants his parents, especially his mother to love him. HaWho, this is where you are going to play an active role in this drama. The next time you sense he needs a hug, give it to him. That little boy inside of him is desperately crying to be loved and validated. It breaks my heart to read what he is going through.

It's good that your sisters are there and handling the situation very well. At least they have seen his crisis play out in front of them and what is good about this is the fact that they are outsiders and your h doesn't consider them part of his "mommy/daddy" situation.

I know it has to be very tough right now watching all of this play out, but you've been handling things so well and you are going to have to dig even deeper for more patience and compassion for his lost child that is within him.

Sending positive thoughts your way today.

[HaWho]

KML - no, no signs of OCD prior to MLC. And I think the weird eating habits also dovetail with the MLC. He does cook nutritious meals at times, though, since I asked him to clean all his pots and pans he tries to broil everything to avoid cleaning dishes.

He has gone back in time and is eating many, many of the foods that he lived off of as a kid. His mom was working a lot and he was left alone for too long at too young of an age. So, that limited his diet. And he is back to it: English muffins, cereal, quick sandwiches, etc. He told me he lived off English muffins and boy is he doing so now.

As for the poisoning, h has many food allergies. A few foods will close his throat immediately. His mother, quite extraordinarily, took these allergies very lightly. She would buy things and not ask if they were x, y and z safe. Back then, labeling for cross contamination was unheard of! On several occasions, due to her cavalier attitude she did zap him and he did almost die on several occasions. One was particularly bad. He always told her she was trying to poison him and though he tried to joke about it, there was anger underneath. And it was very bizarre as she never really seemed to get the severity of it. I can't wrap my head around that.

So, now, rewind in time, I am his mother trying to poison him and stealing his epipens. I think he's trying to come to terms with this all. I wish him luck as it is truly awful that she was so nonchalant.

I have been busy with my sisters. We are having so much fun. H has on several occasions texted me and offered to do x and y with the kids. He doesn't say it's so that I can spend more time with my sisters. But I always text back and validate. I thank him, etc. He never answers.

He mostly ignores me but is very friendly with my sisters. And, the dog always receives a very warm greeting. He has been in his dorm closet 99.9% of the time he is home. He comes out to make an English muffin, get some water or go to the bathroom. We went out to eat last night and he ate his whole meal. In general his body language is prickly towards me.

Having my sisters witness it all has released me from taking this personally. It's real and they see it. When I see the hurt boy it is really hard to watch. But there are SO many instances now where I can see where he is and what issue he's tackling.

This food poisoning one ought to take a while to reconcile. It's a painful one that the very person who should have been making his home 100% safe almost killed him multiple times.

[HaWho]

Oh and most importantly, MIL was a baker and she would use some ingredients to which he was allergic! So he really was not safe eating in his very own home.

[Esame]

HaWho I'm so sorry that things are remaining tense with your H. It really sounds like he is in a dark place right now, and he is dragging you in it with him. Would he actually accept help? I'm not sure if you are the right person to offer it, but maybe one of your sisters or a family friend or even one of his "buddies" that you could approach? I don't know how someone could deal with what goes on in his mind (both the real and imaginary stuff) without professional help. Obviously you and your sons need help too, but maybe helping him with help you and the boys?

Are you sisters staying long? I wish mine was here with me to kick H into shape (she would!). Sometime you need the cavalry don't you?

[job]

I do think your h is trying to work through is "mother" issues and how he lived as a child. He's got a lot of resent towards his mother and the way she was. It will take some time, but he will work through it.

I'm glad he went out to dinner with all of you. At least he made the effort to participate even if he was prickly towards you.

It's nice that your sisters have been there and have been able to observe his behavior. It certainly helps you to better understand that it's not about you at all...but all about him and what he experienced as a child.

I don't think he would be receptive to anyone suggesting that he needs help at this time. He very well may shut down completely and not deal w/anyone in the household if you or one of your sisters suggested he seek help. The best thing to do is observe, validate, affirm and maybe, just maybe the door will crack just a bit and then a suggestion of counseling could take place...but he's not there yet and the door is still shut tight for any suggestions at this time.

You've done an excellent job of dealing w/him and his crisis. I'm sure your sisters have given you a lot of support in the last week. Hopefully things will settle down in the days ahead.

Please take care of yourself.

[LoisB]

Ha,

I want to thank you. I don't post much anymore, but I read along.

Your insight and compassion for your H has helped me heal from all the wounds this MLC journey has inflicted, especially the rejection. I really appreciate how you are able to separate yourself from the behavior and see it with compassion and a strong maternal viewpoint.

It's made me look at my exH differently.

Many of us have so many of our own childhood baggage, I can see how it's easy to become tangled and take their behavior personally. Your situation really illustrates how this behavior is firmly rooted in the MLC-er's deep childhood pain.

My exH had enormous, unresolved pain from a very disturbing childhood and abusive mother.

He showed signs of paranoia too when he was at his worst. In his case, he medicated with marijuana daily which aggravated the paranoia. At one point, he thought I had bugged our phones to record his conversations. He never showed any other signs of OCD or paranoia either. But, he would go through periods in our marriage where the paranoia would escalate... usually coinciding with a major life event like the birth of our first daughter or some big birthday.

In his case, he grew up in a home where he was constantly under a microscope for any "perceived" infraction. His mother was batshid crazy about keeping her kitchen clean and if anyone left a dish out or gave the "appearance" of being neglectful or sloppy in the house, she would physically abuse her children. They never knew what would set her off, so he must have lived on the edge constantly with the feeling that any step outta line might bring her wrath. I always thought it was telling that the insides of her cupboards and closets were a disaster--jam packed with crap. Like she was good at hiding the mess, but didn't want anyone to see the reality.

His way of coping was to run to the woods, literally. He spent much of his childhood hiding around the 20 acres where he grew up in order to escape his mother.

He is still running and hiding. What's so sad is how they run from the love and head back to the pain. Maybe to finish it? IDK.

This month is two years since he saw our youngest daughter.

[HaWho]

Yes Job, the mother issues are front and center right now. I have no plan to suggest he get help as he hates me right now. I can't do anything right. It is best I stay out of his way.

Heather- that is so painful about your exh's childhood. How scary it must be to have been beaten for living as a normal kid. That's awful. So many painful issues there. It must have been so difficult to watch that all unfold. Horrendous, really.

So, I am on my last two days here in NYC. I have loved all the walking and sightseeing. I miss my kids though and this felt too long to be away. S10 asked me to come home because the house is too quiet. And that broke my heart. S12 seemed good until yesterday when he said he was mad at me. He told me he wants me back, too. He is quite engaging and he told me he misses my attention. I validated and asked him to be patient one more day.

But the distance has helped me quite a bit. As long as I have a bird's eye view of MLC I will post what I see. I hope it helps others. For those coming behind me, who live with MLCers, make sure you get away every so often. It helps with perspective.

I really see now that these are his issues and I am just this thing in the way of it all. I get it Job!!! (You are probably slapping your hand to your forehead. But I think I sort didn't REALLY get it 'til now. What a slow process this is for us, too.) He has so many issues he's working through. And he wants to pin everything on me. I don't know if it's all projection or if he is dying to get me to throw him out? Maybe it's a combination?

Now that I get it's him and his issues, it frees me. I always knew it was MLC but to see the wacky mommy issues helped me so very much. It gives me a plan of sorts, too. If he leaves it will be on him and his issues. If he stays, I plan to put all this in some sort of a box. I will be polite. I will invite him places. Validate where I can. Hug when it makes sense.

I guess I realize it's time for me to be able to toggle through the various ages better. When he is nuts, just walk away and let him work through the madness. When there is something I can do, do what needs to be done and then leave him be.

The hard part is his unpredictability. What is he going to do next? And how am I going to be implicated in it all?

[Sotto]

Glad you've been enjoying your break too - what you said reminds me of the respite breaks my Mum & Dad have to give him a break from caring for her. Time to recharge, refocus, relax, regroup....only thing is where would the MLCers go for their break?

It's good that you've gained some new insight and perspective - you've been having a tough time lately in your sitch and I admire you for sticking with everything.

Enjoy the rest of your trip xx

[mleigh4]

I am happy to hear you are enjoying your trip, it is well deserved. Your plan on how to handle H when you return sounds really good. You are one tough cookie HW, I admire you a lot. Enjoy your time until you get your arms wrapped around your munchkins! It's so cute to hear how much they miss you

Have you heard from your H while away or has he been able to handle home and the boys on his own?

[HaWho]

Sotto - yes, where do the MLCers go to get a break? Excellent point. My h has an excellent run, run, run and hide, hide, hide formula in place.

Mleigh - we have only talked once. I call the boys directly but I was not able to reach them one night. I called h and it went to voicemail as his phone was off. I sent a text asking him to have the boys call me. When they called me they passed the phone back to him and he was polite but very vanilla. It was a quick conversation.

He seems to be handling the boys' logistical lives. It's their emotional needs he can't meet. He can't meet his own, so now on earth could meet theirs?!? The boys seem to notice my absence in this area. S12 sounds very needy and S10 sounds sad.

H seems to be off in the dorm/closet a lot, still, even though I am not there. If I am the whole problem why is he still hiding in his closet when I am gone? Wonder if he still locks his door when he leaves? Maybe the dog is "stealing" his stuff now? Oi.

Just more processing for me. Mostly, I can't believe how crazy he has become. If I told his old friends back east or his family, no one would even believe it. I see that this is all his to own. I see that at times I do need to play a role in it by validating, hugging, etc. At other times I just need to give him space and time. He is moving along in that things are changing. Unfortunately, the changes are all for the worse. I think he's tackling a really bad issue right now. Most of the time I just need to sit quiet and watch, just as Job says.

As for me, I do feel a good deal of anxiety right now. He is so unpredictable. I just don't know what he's going to do and how it will impact me and the kids. How crazy is he going to go? Are there even more disturbing childhood issues there that he never divulged?

For months now he has been replaying the same song over and over again. It's like water boarding for the ears. Just torture to hear the SAME song over and over again. It's a song about a tough neighborhood and what people needed to do to survive.

When my sisters were here my eldest sister had a private conversation with h. She was giving pointers on raising our kids to be hard workers. She has raised two very hard working girls. One will be a doctor and the other passed her CPA exam at 22! H, in true MLC fashion turned the subject to comparing his childhood to our kids and even to the childhood I had. He said that he didn't have a nice family like ours.

Actually, my family has had a fair share of hardships. But you know what the differences are? People work through marriages on our side. The men see the value of marriage. Open marriages are not tolerated. Men don't walk away from their families. They don't run and hide. Despite the dysfunction that swirled around me, I know my mother loved me. I know she watched over me. It was far, far from perfect but she did love me and thankfully my home environment was a safe one. And that makes all the difference in the world. I know if my extended family knew what was going on with me, they would rally behind me. It occurred to me that if h's family knew, they might not bat an eye at some of what he has said through all this. Glaring differences.

I try not to think about how far into Kookooville he is going to go. I try to keep busy and tire myself out through work, raising kids, walking, tennis, hiking, etc. Truth be told, I am exhausted worrying about the "what ifs." Logically, I know I have no control but man, do I worry about my kids and their lives.

It is horrible to be married to an insane person.

[tfish08]

The music..is on loop in his car. My s 6 &8 are singing ...let the bodies hit the floor..as soon as i heard it.. i told them that is not an ok song to sing...H has explicit rap in his car since that is what he listened to in his teenage years . Glad you got away and can step away from the madness. Hope you have fun on what is left of your trip Do something fun!!

[Wonka]

HW,

He seems to be handling the boys' logistical lives. It's their emotional needs he can't meet. He can't meet his own, so now on earth could meet theirs?!? The boys seem to notice my absence in this area. S12 sounds very needy and S10 sounds sad.

I am wondering how he is "handling" the logistics while you're away given that he's taken to throwing pots and pans in the trash!??? Let's assume that H's has adopted the mindset of a 16-year old here. What then? Looking after his little "brothers" with a key to his dorm room?!

One has to wonder what's really going on here. As long as your boys are old enough to look after themselves, they're doing okay, BUT not great.

[Esame]

Truth be told, I am exhausted worrying about the "what ifs." Logically, I know I have no control but man, do I worry about my kids and their lives.

It is horrible to be married to an insane person.

HaWho it really is horrible. What you are going through right now is terrible, but you should be really proud of yourself and the boys. Things sound so crazy, anyone would be worried about the kids if they were in your situation. His MLC sounds like a full blown episode of insanity to me, and I really feel that you need help in dealing with him. I don't know if there is a right way to dealing with someone with your H's issues, but he is hurting you the kids and himself, so really needs to get a one way ticket out of Kookooville and start working on solving his problems. Sorry for the blabbing post, I wish I could help, sending you and the boys (((hugs)))

[HaWho]

Thanks Esame for the supportive words.

Wonka - by saying h is "handling" the kids' logistics I meant he is able to get them to where they need to be. S12 makes breakfast for S10 and helps him make a proper lunch.

Returned last night to the most foul smelling house. H came out of his dorm closet for all of 1 minute. He immediately acknowledged the stinkiness of the house and blamed it on S12. He said S made a sandwich that smelled. S12 said he made his fish stew (again) and that is what stunk up the house. I believe S12 as h made this stew before and it did funkify the whole house. They were like bickering brothers.

H gave me a flash of eye contact (bored by me body language) and asked my sister how the trip was. Then poof, off to the dorm MLC incubator and closed the door. 1 minute at most.

I gave the kids big hugs; I missed them so much!!

My sister went to load her dish into the dishwasher and the whole thing was a mess. There were pots all on the bottom of it?!? And glasses turned upside down?!? And bowls inverted?!?

The kids know how to load the dishwasher so I called them over and asked what happened. They said h told them to do it this way. H had washed the pots but must have wanted to better clean them and as they did not fit on the top shelf he put them on the bottom shelf. The kids tried to tell him the water wouldn't reach the top shelf as it would only clean the pots. H wouldn't hear it. They said they didn't re-pack it because h wanted it this way. We re-packed it so that it could do its job and actually clean the dishes in it.

H may be 16 mentally, but when it comes to domestic issues, he is 4.

[job]

I'm glad you made it home safely I'm sorry about the smelly house, but I would swear it's the passive aggressive behavior at place. He knows how smelly that stew gets and he wanted to welcome you home with a foul odor. As for the dishwasher... the same applies there too. I'm sorry, but he knows exactly what he's doing and he's really angry w/you and this is the way that these MLCers act out their passive aggressive behaviors. I have this feeling that his fun and games aren't over yet.

Today is a new day, if you can open up the windows and air the house, by all means do so. Get some air fresheners and sit them around to help take the odor out of the house. Time to regroup now that you've had a break. He's worse than a 13 year old. Your sons are far more mature.

Please take care of yourself.

[HaWho]

Hmm. Job, it did not occur to me that one could take passive aggressive behavior so far. Pathetic.

But, he is sure is angry at me. I think he is gunning for a fight. I will not give it to him. My time away was beneficial in that I see how very unhappy he is. He's miserable. I feel sorry for him. It's all within him.

But actually, I am fairly happy. I love my kids, like my job and have hobbies that interest me. I'm unhappy when I think of him so I try not to do that too much.

I am going to provide my kids with the most stable life I can. I am going to continue to teach them to be good people, to work hard and to take good care of themselves. They are my prize in all this.

[job]

HaWho,
Passive Aggressive people can do all sorts of things. Just a few of the PA things my xh did: I had asked him to paint the kitchen for me. So, he did...he not only painted the ceiling and walls, but he made sure he had paint all over the counter tops, the appliances and all over the floor. No, not drips, but blobs of paint. I ended up having to have someone come in and clean up his mess.

One time, the grass was at least 12 inches tall and I asked him to mow the lawn on one of his days off. What did he do? He not only mowed the grass but deliberately ran over 4 small trees that I had just planted the week before. Said the riding mower got away from him. (Once I figured out what he was doing, I stopped asking him to do things. I either did them myself or relatives came to help me...which he hated even more...but that was too bad and shame on him.)

His Fire Chief advised the staff not to back up the fire trucks into the bay area w/o a spotter. What did my darling boy do...he went right out there and back the fire truck up and ran into the expensive bay door. To the tune of #3,000 we had to pay to have the door replaced and he got 2 weeks suspension.

All of these examples are what PA people do, especially when they are angry or don't want to do things. My list could go on and on. Now, if it was something he wanted to do, then heck yes he would do it perfectly and in record time. Bottom line, they will get you one way or another.

I read every book I could find on PA behavior and educated myself on his behavior. It is a learned behavior from childhood. It comes from where he was instructed to do something by one or both of his parents and he didn't want to do what they told him to do. So, instead of speaking up and saying I don't want to do it, he would screw up whatever they told him to do so that they wouldn't tell him to do it again, i.e., they would get his brother to do it from then on.

Read up on PA behavior. You'll be amazed at what you learn.

[HaWho]

Geez. That is all truly awful Job. I can't recover from the painting of the WHOLE kitchen. The effort put forth to spite is astounding. I will read up on it as more and more PA behavior is bubbling to the surface.

If you remember any books off the book titles pass them along.

Despite the fun times happening here with h, I came back from NYC resolved to strengthen myself even further. This summer while h "takes care of himself a bit," I will get into the best physical, emotional and spiritual shape of my life.

[job]

It took my a very long time to figure out what he was doing, but once I did, I stepped away and took care of things what I wanted done, i.e., by asking others to assist me. He always came across as being okay w/doing things for me...by lo and behold, he would screw them up every time. How do you run over small trees in the yard? He had been operating that riding mower for 2 years.

Here's the book that I read and I recommend it highly: "Living with the Passive Aggressive Man, Coping With Hidden Aggression–From The Bedroom to The Boardroom" by Scott Wetzler, Ph.D.

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, you are an amazing woman. I honestly don't know how you keep your own sanity with all the antics your H is up to. It takes a lot of patience and resolve to be able to kind of step back and be an observer when things are happening so close to you and H is trying to bait you. You appear to be handling it well.

I like that you are going to spend the summer focusing on you and you're well being.

[bttrfly]

my classical music loving son says, "dad listens to the Clash ALL THE TIME ... it's SO ANNOYING!"

guess what he listened to as a teen in crisis?

[bttrfly]

Yes my dear and please make sure to take care of you also in this process as those boys need you so very much!!!

xoxoxo going to keep reading to catch up, but had to pop in to say that immediately. xoxoxo

[bttrfly]

Ok, I'm all caught up. Holy cow. My prayer and wish for you HW is peace ... an oasis of serenity in the chaos of your h's mlc and shenanigans.

xoxoxoxo

[HaWho]

Well, well, well, guess who ate the dinner I COOKED tonight?!?

Here is what happened. I bought h a souvenir in NYC. It had nothing to do with NYC as he has no attachment to that city. I bought him a pop up 3D card of the Tower Bridge as he is sentimental about London. And I bought him an excellent quality of chocolate he likes that I have not seen here in CA.

H has returned from 2 trips with souvenirs for the boys and nothing for me. So classless. He presented them to the boys while I received not even a postcard. All done in front of the boys. Awful. Truly awful. I turned the other cheek and did not debase myself by doing the same in kind. I killed him with kindness and felt good FOR ME doing so.

At dinner I give him the souvenirs. The chocolate is sealed and he asks if I am poisoning it. I ignore. (Sister thinks it came off as a joke; I am not so sure.) I tell him that quality of chocolate is not available in CA. He is surprised the souvenir has nothing to do with NYC. I tell him: you have no attachment to NYC. You have attachment to London. (Duh, there is thought behind it!!!)

Sister offers to fix him a dinner plate; he says no, he will fix his own. And I think: yeah right--knowing he is on a hunger strike. She offers him wine and he has some!! And it is already opened. (Can't believe he's taking the risk of drinking from opened wine--wink, wink, nor nod.) Half way through our dinner he fixes himself a heaping plate AND eats it!!!

Wow and hmmm . . .

[bttrfly]

great - as we are often told, zero expectations tho ... well done on being yourself and not responding in kind re: souvenirs ... xoxoxo as always, majorly proud of YOU!

[Wonka]

HW,

Can I show up at your house as your long-lost sister that was given up as a baby for adoption so I can throw H some truth darts in front of the whole family?!

"Oh yah...don't drink the Kool-aid, buddy. Jeez, I don't think your wife is trying to poison you...what a dumb idea! Who came up with that ludicrous notion? You? Ah...I see." cocked head, raised eyebrows

"What's up with your room downstairs? Isn't it a bit odd that you slink off by yourself like some sulky teenager?"

[HaWho]

Sounds GREAT to me Wonka. Let's do one of those swaps where you live here and I Iive in your home. I am on my way now.

You can straighten this out for sure.

[HaWho]

Oh, and he ate the whole huge chocolate bar 5 minutes after I gave it to him. Guess for tonight, at least, he is not so worried that I am trying to kill him.

I saw him crumpling the wrapper and asked: did you eat that WHOLE baking bar?!? He said yes and I was tempted to wring my hands, wiggle my eyebrows and say "bwah ha ha GOT 'ya!"

Too stupid . . .

[Kyh]

HaWho, it was interesting to read about your h's reaction. After I got my w a mday gift her attitude toward me has changed quite a bit. I'm still keeping my expectations extremely low but if nothing else, she has been a lot better to deal with and I'm setting an example for the kids. I wonder if your h will do the same. And it does feel nice to do something for them doesn't it?

Glad to read you had a nice trip. Take care!

[TabD]

Hawho.

Wow you did great! You are an example to follow!

[job]

Very well done! You didn't lower yourself to his level and brought him some goodies from your trip. The thought and yes, attention that you gave him made him happy. As for eating...guess the thought of being poison was ruled out when the chocolate entered the room. LOL!

Nicely done!

[betterm]

HW, I'm new here but reading into other posts as much as I can, to try and get to know the community. And I must say, You impressed me greatly. I don't know what the heck your H is thinking, but the patience and resilience within you is inspiring and I hope you can stay strong and just keep doing you. You're in my thoughts and I hope to hear more good things in the future on this thread.

HE ATE! OMG HE ATE! Well done.

[HaWho]

Thanks so much for the kind words all.

I don't know why he ate last night. I swear, it's an MLC soap opera over here. Maybe it was because he received no reaction from me when he went on the hunger strike? Maybe it was because I had the grace to bring him a souvenir? Maybe it's because he now has epipens again?

I forgot to mention that before I left for NYC he did find a spare epipen in my car. (Remember he thinks I stole them with the intent of then feeding him foods to which he is deathly allergic.) Last night he mentioned that he had two epipens now. Either he found both or found one and ordered a second. I wanted to ask him if he's eating my food because he's now armed with epipens? But, curious as I am, I want to ignore the idiotic behavior completely.

You know, it hit me in NYC, I can go down tit-for-tatting, growing bitter and angry but I refuse to becomes that person. I see him being that person and coupled with the lovely passive aggressive traits it is so, so very unattractive.

FYI: He is still locking his dorm room like it's a bank vault. Ugh. What a complete fool he is making of himself. For posterity, I need to get a video of him locking and unlocking his bedroom door.

Each time he moves one step further into MLC Kookooville, I am going to make a hairpin turn and make myself an even healthier person.

[betterm]

Thanks so much for the kind words all.
Each time he moves one step further into MLC Kookooville, I am going to make a hairpin turn and make myself an even healthier person.

I don't know if I missed anything and sorry if this is an intrusive Q, but has your H actually been to a psych for evaluation in the past? I know many pointed out the childhood issues with food and what not, but what I see could be more like behaviors of an late-onset/adult-onset Paranoid Schizophrenia ... I only say that because through high-school and college I suffered through drug addictions, and even after college, and it made me a very paranoid person. I would have behaviors like this, but it was more like off/on switch that I couldn't control. I've been drug-free for a long time now, but I still remember those days like they were yesterday and still have to remind myself that people aren't out to get me everywhere I go. Just food for thought, as I didn't see any formal diagnosis on your H.

[HaWho]

Hi Betterm - hmm. You know, the thing is he can control it all and I have seen him do so quite handily. While my sisters were here he gave "normal" reasons why he wasn't eating my food. Rather than telling the truth (that he thinks I am trying to poison him), he said he was not feeling well or not hungry. And he wouldn't unlock his dorm room door in front of my sisters. He would wait until they weren't watching. (But they heard it!!!). All signs lead to crazy passive aggressive MLC behavior.

Here is a funny re-write he gave while my sister was still here. Last year he was shot in the eye with a Nerf bullet by S10. Ouch. It scratched his cornea. It took quite some time for it to heal. The funny thing? He tells my sister that this incident is what caused him to need reading glasses and before that his vision was 20/20. In fact, he needed reading glasses YEARS before this incident and was wearing them for years before this all happened. I stayed silent. Wow, what denial over aging!!

My sister, who has no flies on her, said very nonchalantly: "um, you probably needed the glasses because you were getting older." Then she chewed her food ever so slowly and watched his reaction.

Oh dear, h's face turned droopy so fast and I swear he looked pale. Of course it was an injury that worsened his vision it couldn't have possibly been due to the fact that he is almost 50.

Hard to keep a straight face . . .

[mleigh4]

Lol HW. Your sisters comment and your description made me crack up. You are doing so good, keep the humor in your and your S's world. I am glad H is eating again.

I have a confession....I just bought a 3 pack of reading glasses! Gasp! Yes our eyes change after 40, it's life.

Hope you have a great weekend

[HaWho]

Oh boy. Guess who is out looking for a fight?

S12 is out playing basketball with friends. He texts me asking me to grab something he forgot. S10 was having a friend over in a few minutes. So I said to S10 I will be back in a few. H was out for a few hours. He called S10 to ask he if wanted to go out to lunch. S10 said no thanks. He said he'd already eaten and (plus he had a friend on the way). In fact, he has not yet eaten.

I am leaving to drop off item to S12 when h is pulling in. We wave. Then I receive a nasty text from him. He says "I didn't agree to watch S and his friend. You better come back here or call his parents to get him. Don't make plans for me. I do get for myself. Make your own plans."

Oooh, what a viper.

I text back and say I am dropping something off and will be back in 5 mins. before the friend comes. I tell him not to worry that I take care of my responsibilities and wouldn't saddle him with these issues. (Which I wouldn't!! Seriously? He thinks I make plans here for kids and then just leave? This is where they think we are are the same as them, clearly. I would never do that!)

He texts that he saddles himself with his own responsibilities. (I can hear the regret that he hates being an adult.). He says how much he supports, financially.

I thank him and tell him he can go have fun when I return. He tats back "you have fun." I tell him I will as I enjoy when S has friends over. And I do. These years go fast. It is sad he hides in a room or runs all around missing it. He says "well enjoy."

I say thanks. I thank him again for his financial support and then I say I will be home in a few and he can go enjoy his day. He doesn't answer.

It occurs to me that he is so angry at being an adult. And he thinks he meets all his parenting responsibilities even though he is so checked out of life. He really thinks he has an awful life.

Anyway, I came home and killed with kindness. I said hi and offered him part of lunch. It feels so great not to retaliate. And then he just looks like a real a€€, which he is really is these days.

[job]

HaWho,
It's not only the fact that he hates being an adult, but he also hates the fact that you assume he's going to take on adult responsibilities, i.e., taking care of son and friend. Now, we all know that you didn't assume anything of the sort, but in his mind, he feels like you are taking advantage of him and continue to drop responsibilities on him w/o asking what his plans are. It's typical of the MLCer...they feel under appreciated all of the time...poor baby.

I'm a very big fan of killing them w/kindness. In fact, so much kindness that they choke on it is even better.

He is still festering and is itching for a fight. Can I assume that your family has left?

[HaWho]

Yes, Job family has left. He did not eat dinner last night. He sat off by himself for part of dinner. Then he joined us at the table but did not eat with us. I ignored. I made beef stew and it was delicious. The kids raved and ate several helpings.

Yes, he just wants to be free. I see that. It's crazy he thinks I am trying to get out of my responsibilities by off loading them to him of all people?!?

Job, I FINALLY see how killing him with kindness if better for me, too. Otherwise I am left feeling awful getting into the mud with him. When he gripes about some very normal adult thing he does, I just thank him for doing it. Before I would dismiss the comments and sort of tell him (gently) to get over it! We all have adult things we do and no one goes around announcing it play by play. But that did not work. It just made him madder. Killing him with kindness seems to make him zip it. Silence is golden.

Job - remember when you said you were waiting for him to hit the "time for me to have some fun" phase? Are there other replay phases awaiting him/me?

[job]

I thought your family had left from what you posted earlier. So, it's back to normal, i.e., not eating w/the family and crying he's under appreciated, etc. I wonder if his parents or his siblings off loaded their responsibilities on to him. His projection certainly sounds like it.

You have to be compassionate and yet firm w/these crisis people. Killing them w/kindness makes them step back just a bit because they are expecting us to react in a negative manner. But, I will warn you...he may try even harder to get you to lose your patience...don't take the bait. He really doesn't have the nerve to walk out the door on his own, i.e. he needs a really serious justification to do so. Don't help him! If he really wants to leave, it will under his own steam.

They all tend to say it's time for them to have some fun and yes, freedom to do what they want and when they want to. They also like to say that they want don't to be told and/or controlled. It's very sad that they don't or can't realize that they are adults and they do have the freedom to make choices all of the time.

Be prepared...there will be more nit picking and snarly remarks along the way. He's not happy w/himself.

[HaWho]

Job - I know he was left alone for too long at too young of an age. So I am sure he was handling things an adult should have been doing. He wasn't cared for properly in any way, shape or form. He knows that now because he has seen what his kids have. And he has been overtly jealous of that for years. (That is very unattractive, let me tell you.)

I see he is itching for a fight. I am no where in his space and he is constantly seeking me out to fight with me. I can't even come close to giving him a fight. I feel so sorry for him and how truly lost he is. I don't even feel angry. I just feel sorry for what has become of him.

And yes, the under appreciation is a huge theme for him. I think if I scheduled a daily parade for him it wouldn't be enough. I validate where it makes sense and thank him as well. At some point he needs to figure out that it should make HIM happy to do the things he does. He needs to determine where the meaning in his life is. How long can he hide behind closed doors and run all around before he figures out none of that is working? I am exhausted from watching him.

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, I really think they expect us to act like Mom and show our disapproval and come down on them, etc. I keep thinking about kids who don't get the attention they want/need so they act out ... sort of like getting Mom and Dad riled up is better than no attention at all. But by reacting negatively to that (and I think most of us do in the beginning) it just fuels their dislike for us, keeps us in the enemy status and justifies to them that what they are doing is the "this is for me, I don't care what you think about it and you can't stop me." camp. Rebellion.

It is obvious that you are taking great care with your boys to get them through all this and your H sees that. I think your observation, based on what you've said about his childhood, regarding jealously is probably right on.

In your shoes, I'd work very hard to not take his bait, to remain calm, cool and collected when he "acts out" and balance that with a dose of appreciation and praise when it's warranted. Hopefully, at some point he'll work harder to gain those positive reactions from you in lieu of acting out to get your attention.

Sadly, it's a long road and that may take a while.

[beatrice]

I think if I scheduled a daily parade for him it wouldn't be enough.

I loved this!! and Yes, this phase can last a long time. I think your and Job's interchange is on the money about them taking responsibility too young. My xh's parents expected him to be self sufficient from sixteen onwards. He paid his own way through High School and College, and they told themselves what great parents they were. (This wasn't an economic necessity, although they told themselves it was)

I am all for self reliance, but they really carried it too far. At the same time they kept a tight emotional stanglehold on him, so he had to be financially responsible, but they treated him like a little kid. You can't have it both ways!

I think he resented the fact that our own children were given so many opportunities. But we were in a position to do this for them, and why wouldn't we.

Now, many years down the line he is hugely proud of what they accomplished, and beginning to see (for now!) that I held the family together for ten years while he waltzed away in la-la land.

I wouldn't mind a small fanfare of trumpets for this, but perhaps not every day. It could lead to a ringing in the ears.

[HaWho]

2X2Many - I think you've hit on something. I agree that he is looking for excuses to justify his rebelliousness. And you're right that I should not take the bait on any of his rebellious antics but I should reward the good behavior--just like I do with my kids. Thanks for the pointers. Sometimes, it's so helpful to receive the parenting pointers (although it's ever so bizarre that I apply them to my h).

Bea - All of us here give you more than a collective fanfare of trumpets! You sure deserve it. I read the bit on your thread about the moment of clarity after 11 years. That's sobering, certainly. I know it's taken so long; but still it must feel good to receive it finally.

And I agree, that for many of these MLCers the resentment kicks in when they see us parenting and nurturing our own children. It's must be quite a painful light bulb that goes off.

So, this evening h started to treat me like I exist (again). I never re-read my threads but I wonder if there is some discernible pattern? Like every x months he goes crazy and then he peeks out for a longer bit?

We were driving to S10's game and h offered the kids a mint. He has taken to ignoring me completely since I don't know when (I would have to look back at my thread). This time he offered me a mint, too. I said no thanks politely (just brushed my teeth). He was very, very chatty the whole night. I just listened. Maybe I said 40 words all night?

Then after the game h suggested we all grab a bite. S12 wants his soup in a bread bowl and h thinks he should just have it in a regular bowl and dip the bread they give him into the soup. Are you asleep yet?!? Every time we go to this restaurant they have the same conversation. And so it starts again like they've never had it before?!? H jokes that S12 can't have the bread bowl but his mother (that's me) can. Hmm. I exist again. Interesting. At the restaurant I was going to grab some waters and before I left h asked what I wanted him to order for me. I thanked him.

Not sure if this is start to a little peek out or not. Time will tell.

[ciluzen]

HaWho,
I'm crossing my fingers for you that this is a peek out. You need a break from the crazy, angry, MLCer. Thoughts are with you.

[Esame]

HaWho, I don't know what to say about your H's MLC any more. It really sounds like an extended stay at the MLC resort at Kookooland doesnt it? I agree with other posts, you are doing great. I am new to this but no way could I deal with your H as kindly as you do. In fact my H is ten times easier than your H and I'm an emotional wreck. I hope things get better for you and the boys xxx

[Wonka]

HW,

To give you a perspective of the MLC mind, chores and taking care of the kids is pressure for them. I recall when I was in the midst of my own MLC, I just couldn't handle doing the dishes. It felt overwhelming and I would literally walk away from the kitchen thus leaving the dishes for Ms. Wonka to wash up after dinner (or party).

Nowadays, I am completely unbothered by washing the dishes and drying them. I still catch myself in wonderment when I do the dishes nowadays...telling myself, "This is nothing! So utterly simple and mundane." I just.couldn't.cope.WITH.the.dishes for the duration of my MLC.

Sad, huh? Yep, that was me.

[HaWho]

Hi Esame - thanks for the words of encouragement. You are doing very well. Keep putting one foot in front of the other and keep very busy: physically, mentally and intellectually.

Wonka - your post could not have come at a better time. Thanks for reminding me how fatiguing depression is. It's a good reminder for me, too. There's always a let down when my sisters leave. Your post was a much needed taser to get myself busy lest I slip into a funk myself. Your words spurred me to productivity; so thanks. I am curious, did you have much paranoia in your MLC and if so, was it projected onto Ms. Wonka?

So, h spent all of yesterday hiding in his dorm/closet. Ciluzen - thanks for the wishful thinking. I was thinking that it has been so very long since I have had a glimpse of old h. It would be nice to see him as I feel myself forgetting who he was. But mostly, as Ciluzen pointed out I really need a break from this crazy, angry person. So I will gladly take the hiding, quiet personality that re-surfaced yesterday.

I think killing him with kindness works best when he spews. Obviously, there are times when the best I can do is ignore. But if there is any kindness I can show, I will do so.

I try to put as much distance between us as possible. But, as we are both under the same roof, that is easier said than done. Mostly, I feel like at best, there is just one of those flimsy curtains dividing us; like you find in hospitals that "divide" two rooms. No matter how much you can't see, you are still forced to hear a bunch of stuff you don't want to know.

There are no "real people" in my life who know what is going on. Well, I take that back. I think my sweet neighbors have an inkling. But no one outside of them. And so it was good to have my sisters here. My eldest sister is a tough cookie. She doesn't really buy into a lot of psycho babble stuff. She has excellent coping skills and thinks people always have choices. It was good for me that she, above all people came and lived "this." I know it re-shaped her paradigm. Boy, did she get hit over the head with the MLC frying pan. By the time she left here, she was furrowing her brow, rubbing her temples and there were little stars and yellow birds circling her head.

It can be lonely living with the MLCer.

[Wonka]

HW,

I am unable to recall instances of paranoia. However, I hated, HATED being judged and that probably heightened my paranoid thoughts to a certain degree.

I nearly pulled out of a week-long family trip to Martha's Vineyard where most of all Ms. Wonka's family joined for this particular adventure and all had to share a house (horrors of horrors for me as a MLCer) together. Because I hated the notion that 1,001 eyeballs were possibly directed at me judging every friggin' move I made. Here's more fun stuff that happened during that trip.

Yep, I was a World Champ Bed Edge Hugger. I slept on the far edge of the bed....as close to the drop off as possible. To confuse Ms. Wonka further, I asked her to slather after-tan lotion on my back in the evenings. Then off I went to my own corner.

Oh and there's more. This wasn't the end of the MV trip. The next story is a real doozy! Read on....

One of those day trips to the beach by Edgartown, I stayed on the beach area where there was dunes around a small pond that was adjacent to the Atlantic ocean playing with our then 3-year old nephew and my BIL and his good friend while MIL and FIL sat around us. Ms. Wonka and her sister went off to swim in the ocean.

At one point, Ms. Wonka came up breathless and said, "Wonka, I almost drowned out there! The water was rough and choppy." My reaction? A muted "Oh" and went right back to playing with nephew.

Keep in mind, to a normal person, one would show appropriate level of concern for Ms. Wonka's terror and wellbeing, right? Me, nope. Not so much. I was numb and dead inside.

Joy and rapture, right?! NOT!

[HaWho]

Ouch Wonka. The mind is a powerful thing, eh? Amazing what changes take place in depression. Thanks for sharing. It's always helpful to have a glimpse of what's going on in there.

So h does seem to be less hostile towards me. I wouldn't say it's a peek out but I'll take the respite from the palpable anger.

The other night at dinner (he's still boycotting my food) he said: "4th of July is around the corner. What are we going to do folks?" 'Folks' means I am included as usually he just says 'boys.' I listened to their ideas and didn't say anything.

Mostly I just thought about how/what is different from 4th of July last year. I determined that he is still crazy just in all sorts of different ways now. The fog is much thinner; he was so out of it this time last year! But, the fog just made a seat for massive paranoia. It's like the shell game but all three walnuts just have different kinds of crazy beneath them. Last year, at a restaurant he offered S12 (then 11) beer!!! The people next to us looked at him like they were going to call social services. The only thing that probably stopped them from doing so, is that S12 said: "I am 11! I can't drink beer."

The question, of course, is what Christmas song should I play on the morning of the 4th? I am for sure going to beat him to the punch and play some XMAS carol. Either he will appreciate it (given we ate Easter brunch to Drummer Boy) or he will think I have lost my faculties. If it's the latter, then great! Let him worry about MY sanity for a change. (He still has the artificial tree in the dorm room.)

He did text me some kid logistical stuff today. He was polite.

I roasted two chickens last night for dinner. I knew today was busy so I figured we would have leftovers. H is still not eating my food. He did see both chickens. Today he came home with his OWN store bought roasted chicken! Talk about passive aggressive! There is still 1 1/2 chickens already made and he goes out and buys his own! I think he wants me to get into it with him by asking why he bought a chicken when there are 2 right here?!? I ignored it. My favorite part to this story? He goes out and buys his own chicken, but then he ate a bunch of things out of the fridge, that could have ALL been poisoned by me as I had ample time and opportunity. Yep. There's that MLC logic for 'ya.

I am so curious to know why certain things are deemed unsafe while others, lying right next to the "poisoned" item, are fine? I SO want to ask. But I don't dare as I am sure he will think I am trying to figure how to "get him." Oh dear. He'd probably pad lock the fridge on me. If he ever wakes up, this is definitely on my list of "inquiring minds want to know" questions. Hmm. That list is getting long.

As for me, I am feeling better over my family leaving. I am keeping active.

[Wonka]

HW,

The comment about playing Drummer Boy during Easter really struck me the most in reading about H's fogged POV.

What I am wondering here is this:

-Was Christmas-time a happy occasion for H growing up?
-Does H have good, happy memories of Christmas?
-What was Christmas-time like for H based on the stories he's told you over the years?

My sense, based on what you report here, is that H's trying to go back to a time to reclaim the lost 'innocence' of childhood experiences before being hit with "adulthood" stuff and responsibilities. It seems to me that Christmas is a big theme with H as he tries to attempt to re-integrate himself as a whole person albeit with fits and starts.

Perhaps Job can stop by later and post my USS Wonkie threads on a voyage into the MLC mind to aid you better in understanding H's MLC mind a bit better. Not sure if this is possible given that the DB site underwent the 'Great Purge' (shuddering here) that pretty much destroyed really good gems (aka MLC's Greatest Hits).

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, yes I agree that was passive aggressive about the chicken and I imagine your H would love you to ask about that. I'm wondering if a mini-fridge for the dorm room may be on the list somewhere.....

When you post about convos with your H, you do seem to manage to be present, aware and non-reactive. Who knows how any of our situations may ultimately unfold, but these are gifts indeed.

Thanks for stopping by my new thread on 'big D...' Xx

[HaWho]

Wonka - XMAS has always been a happy memory for him. I suspect it was a happy time for his mother too, and so it was a disruption from the daily dysfunction. His mother always went all out decorating, he had lots of presents and he has always loved the cheer of the season: the music, the decorations, etc. I think that's exactly why that Christmas tree has become a permanent fixture in the closet. In fact, now that I write this, his mother always had an artificial tree!! (We always buy a real one.)

Yes, I would LOVE to read those threads. Hope they still exist; how awful to lose anything from the mind of a MLCer as there is already so very little. Hopefully, they just need to be exhumed?

Thanks for the insight Wonka. I did not realize they can even attempt to re-integrate into a whole person during replay?!? I thought that came later. Although many, many months ago he did tell me he was in "pieces" and he was trying to put himself back together. Hmm.

[Esame]

HW I think the level of crazy has reduced a little at your household hasn't it? you are right, the fog must be thinning, and even though he obviously still suffers from his MLC, maybe there is a little improvement?

I think you are doing great! Sending you (((hugs)))

[2Times2Many]

My H also said early on that he was mixed up and needed to figure himself out.

I think they do realize on some level that they're not themselves or not the person they used to be and are confused about why or how to fix it. And, even in replay, I suspect they have yearnings for what they've lost/abandoned and don't like who they've become.

My H said he feared he was making the worst mistake of his life just a few months after BD and you could almost see the torment just oozing out of him. He would send me songs like "Home" by Michael Buble or "Need You Now" by Lady Antebellum .... WHILE he was seeing OW. Some would say that was trying to keep the anchor in place or cake-eat, and maybe so, but I don't think my H is THAT manipulative. If that truly were the case, I don't think it was a conscious, calculated effort.

I think the pain he was feeling and the moments of clarification about what he was doing, even in replay, were real.

I truly admire your patience and understanding, HaWho.

[job]

HaWho,

There are 432 pages of threads that can be searched if you change your "Display Option" to all dates. The last purge left the forum with the date of 12/23/2006 as the very last one of that time. So, unless Wonka has recreated some of her older threads or has those older postings on her hard drive, they may not be a available any longer.

Also, to locate the threads of posters, go to the left hand bottom of the screen and change your "Display Options" to all dates. You can then do a search of the posters name at the top of the screen or you can do a left click on the posters name and click on all postings. That will show where the poster has posted.

This function can be used doing a search on any of the forums.

[2Times2Many]

Edit

I should have said ...

I think the pain he was (is) feeling and moments of clarification about what he was (is) doing, even in replay, were (are) real. I was thinking past tense, I suppose ... or wishful thinking, perhaps?

[HaWho]

Sotto and Esame - thanks for the posts.

Job - thanks for all that info. I will go back and see what is left of Wonka's posts.

Well, if h were a super hero he would be Perpetually Paranoid Man. He continues to build one crazy case against me.

Today I come into the kitchen and see a large sealed envelope on the counter with my name on it and I just dread any correspondence from him. I think from now on any written correspondence from him will always be a trigger for me. He could leave me a grocery list and I would probably break out in hives.

Before I talk about the letter, here's a few things you should know: so inside is the check transaction register book for those checks I ordered. They forgot to send it to me when they sent the checks. By the way, remember when I took what I thought was my bike lock off h's key chain? Well, turns out it was one of the the keys to his gun lock. And one of the things he has said is that I stole the key on purpose because my plan is to shoot him. I can't even believe this is my life. I just cannot believe it. Oh, and also we received a call from the credit card company that someone from a watched fraudulent phone number tried to call into our credit card company. The call came from a Minnesota number and we live no where near there. I have never been to Minnesota and no one there. So, enclosed is a hand written letter from h saying the following:
-------
"All of this ordering checks on my account (that I kindly put your name on), excessive spending, credit card fraud activity, stealing my gun key, simultaneous disappearances of my epipens, etc. is all starting to trouble me to a level that is nearing combustion. My trust in you is at an all time low right now. This creates an environment where I can overreact. Please get yourself in check."
-------
I am so tired of this. I just want to be left alone. As for him "kindly putting my name on his accounts" I would love to see a lawyer or judge's read on that. There are laws when you are married. As for my "excessive spending" that is a joke. Even with the costs of preparing for my two sisters coming and going to NYC, I spent 1/4 of what he spent in the same month. And the fraudulent credit card attempt?!? Now, I somehow orchestrated getting myself one of the watched phone numbers for credit card theft and tried to hack into my own account?!! I am just worn down on hearing that I am trying to kill him. If I look at him cross eyed he probably thinks I am radiating him. He is just grasping for control. He wants to blow. He wants to pin it all on me. And the line about "this creating an environment where he can overreact?!?" Umm, I think you've been doing that day in and day out for a year and a 1/2 now.

I don't even know what to do with all this. Seriously. I needed some checks as I had to write a few. The rest of this is just so ridiculous. I don't even care anymore. I just want to go about my business like a normal person. I am a normal person. So his story is: my wife was trying to murder me and had the audacity to write 3 checks (for a total of $500) out of MY account."

I would try to explain the check situation to him but he has such extreme control issues right now that I just think it will blow up things even further. He is so on edge.

I am just beyond this nonsense. What is he trying to do with this letter? Pick a fight so he has an out? Get me to react and throw him out? Defend myself against completely asinine allegations?

Why can't he just leave me alone? Everywhere I turn he is trying to start wildfires. He throws lit matches by the dozens and just wants me to stomp them all out.

[job]

HaWho,
BREATHE! Calm down! Your h is very paranoid right now and nothing you say or do is going to change your mind. Have you spoken to a lawyer? If not, you need to do this as soon as possible and take that letter w/you. I may be wrong, but I think your h is leading up to his great escape of leaving home. He's pushing you very hard and wants you to get into a huge knock out, drag out fight so that he can justify leaving.

I wouldn't address that letter w/him unless he brings it up. If he does, speak very calmly that you are very sorry he feels the way that the does and walk away.

As for the checking account...don't you put money into that account? If so, you are entitled to use that account just as much as he is and yes, you are entitled to have access to the checkbook just as he does. My advice...get a separate checking account asap and withdraw at least half the money in the joint account and put it in the new account. If he wants to control the checkbook, then he can control his own checkbook by himself.

He's pushing and he wants out, but doesn't have the nerve to do it w/o your help. If he continues to escalate, you may need to show him the door as this is starting to border on emotional and mental abuse.

BTW, I did locate two of Wonka's previous threads using the method I mentioned, i.e., changing the Display Options to all dates. I found this particularly link on Page 59. The link that I am providing also includes a link to the first posting since this is II.

A Voyage Into the MLCer Mind II

[kml]

Honey, he needs to see a psychiatrist. His paranoia is beyond what one might expect from a "normal" MLCer. And one of his comments could actually be taken as a little threatening.


Is he on any medications? Is there any history of mental illness in his family? Anybody who has to get B12 shots (B12 deficiency can cause paranoia)? Any history of concussions or participating in sports that can cause CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy, like the football players get)? Any history of Alzheimer's, fronto-temporal dementia, Huntington's disease, Parkinson's disease, or any other neurological disorder in the family? Thyroid problems or celiac disease?

Does he have a relationship with a primary care doctor? If so, you can contact them and relay your concerns about his behavior. They can't tell you anythinjg about your H due to privacy laws, but they can read a letter if you send it.

If you're still largely dependent on his income, you need to develop a plan to increase your own and pay down any debts, as I'm not sure you can count on him to be able to provide in a couple of years.

[HaWho]

Thanks Job and KML - only had a quick second. So a quick post. Wanted to update that I just received a text from him saying that we should do something with the boys Saturday night. And he asks if I have any ideas.

Just crazy. Plain and simple crazy.

[job]

He is definitely all over the place.

[mleigh4]

Hi HW. I am following and don't know what to say as I have never dealt with this before. It's getting a little scary. I love Jobs advice to get your own separate account, really good idea and one less thing to bother you about.

I assume your H works? At home or away? Any word or concerns from his co-workers about his behavior? Just wondering if anyone sees this or if it's only directed at you.

Please be careful and sending you hugs.

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, I've been around here a long time and this is not what I would describe as normal MLC behavior from what I've read on other people's threads.

The statement he made about,"This creates an environment where I can overreact. Please get yourself in check." is very concerning. I agree with KML ... it's bordering on a threat. I'd be very concerned about what "overreact" means, especially if he has access to a gun. But you know your H much better than we do. It just doesn't sound right to an outsider looking in. From here it looks like he is not stable ... even if you consider the MLC point of view. I haven't seen many sitchs that included the kind of paranoia he is displaying. Maybe the vets have??

Please, please, please protect yourself and those boys.

[bttrfly]

i could be completely off base but i didnt read the bought chicken as being PA, more that he's nuts, paranoid, wants to feel part of, and so this was what he came up with.
just my $.02 and not worth much more than that xoxoxo

[bttrfly]

talk tp a lawyer on the downlow. find out your rights. protect yourself and your boys. we are all here for you. xoxoxo

[HaWho]

Thank you everyone. My ears are open. H has never showed even a pinch of violent tendencies. He doesn't even raise his voice. He has, however, always been very brave behind that computer screen and with pen and paper.

The day was made even more interesting by the fact that my MIL ambushed me. Last year this time I mentioned to her that h was in a funk and seemed angry and irritable. After that conversation, a few days later, I called her and left a voicemail asking her to call me back. I wanted to apologize for worrying her. Well, silly me. Because she never once called me back. I called her 3 or so more times over the next 3 weeks. It always went to voicemail and she never called me back. And she never answered my 2 or three texts either. And I had the silly notion that we were friends.

Then several months later, she texted me every 3 weeks (3 times) and asked how I was and how the boys were. I said fine. And that was that. I think she left voicemails on the boys' birthdays, maybe they were texts?!? But other than that, she fell off the planet. Not once has she picked up the phone to call me in 1 year.

Today she face timed S12. I was upstairs and he passed me the phone to talk with her. It was awkward, to say the least. She is such a coward to call on video with other people around. She needs it nice and safe so I can't have a real conversation with her. She starts by telling me how much she misses the boys. This is the first time she has called them in 1 year. She asks about everyone under the sun, including a nephew I have, who she has never even laid eyes on. Guess who she did not ask about? Her own son. Not one single question. And even though he was home she never asked to talk with him. She knows her part in this mess and she is keeping her distance from it all.

Imagine knowing your child is going through something and completely ignoring him. Just imagine. It made me go right over to my kids and hug them boa constrictor style. And yes, it made me feel sorry for my h. She asked to talk to everyone but him. She even spoke with one of s10's friends who was over--a boy she has never met. Awful.

We ended the conversation fairly quickly. My whole stomach was in knots afterwards. I will never do that again. If she wants to talk to me, she can call me privately, like a big girl should. Next time she tries that stunt, I will say I am just heading out and ask her to give me a call on my phone. And I will never hear a peep from her.

At dinner, h is somewhat chatty. He announces that his cell phone screen cracked. He puts the precious phone in the middle of the table, screen up and leaves it there for the whole meal. Just sitting quietly and watching those actions. Then he starts talking about our Christmas plans. He asks the boys their ideas and I just listen. Then he turns to me and for the first time in a long time he looks me in the eye and asks what I think. There is fatigue and a sorrow in his eyes.

Today, he sure was all over the map.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, I agree that was a really concerning message from your H. I wonder if it is worth calmly discussing that message with him to try and settle his fears. He actually feels that a family member is trying to cause him harm from what he says.

IDK, but it does sound as though it would be worth confiding in a trusted person if you don't feel able to discuss it yourself with him. I have read quite a bit about MLC - but not about so much paranoia and that concerns me.

Do take care as others have said - safety first xx

[job]

HaWho,
I'm sorry about the MIL situation. She's afraid to hear and face the fact that her son is having issues. I find it very interesting that she's calling at this time, but who knows, maybe she's heard something along the way.

We've had some "extreme" cases of MLC on the Forum over the years. The comment, which could be construed as a veiled threat is a way for him to control things. I can recall that my xh said similar things to me and he was quite the bull in the china closet when he came to collect his plastic Easter Egg. He was clinching his fists, snorting like a bull, pacing back and forth and had a very angry look about him. When they get very annoyed or angry about something or someone, the lose control over those emotions and fear that their safe little world is being rocked. They are so emotionally charged that they truly can't control those emotions...but that doesn't mean you ignore those threats and even the veiled ones. I would seriously think about documenting what he says and does and keep those messages he sends you.

As you witnessed last evening, he was back to being quite different, i.e., discussing the future.

I am hoping and praying that your h will settle down so that you and your family can have a nice, peaceful holiday weekend. However, if he gets completely out of control and is spewing threats towards you, leave the house and/or call the police. Guns in the home are nothing to sneeze at.

[Ginger1]

My exMIL has late-onset schizophrenia. It's started off with major paranoia. It's a long sad story. When she on her meds, she is pretty good, when she is off, not so good. I've seen her there. And yes, one second, completely normal, next second someone is trying to get her.

Anyways, your H is writing you letters outlining some pretty serious accusations and you are worried about "overreacting?" It's getting very eggshell-y for you now. I honestly think you should react to this, but that's just my opinion.

He is nowhere near stable right now. I would have a plan, talk to lawyers, do what you got to do to protect you and your boys, because he is pretty unpredictable.

It's clear you love him very much, and want to help him through his depression and childhood problems. I get it. But please, know you are not "abandoning" him if there comes a time you need to separate residences to protect you and the boys. Doesn't mean the M is over, doesn't mean you can't still be there for him, doesn't mean you don't love him. If it comes to it, all of these things can be done from a distance that is safe for you and your boys and it doesn't mean its permanent.

[HaWho]

Thanks Job, Sotto and Ginger. All very sound advice; as always.

So I found that quite organically, I just hit a new level of detaching. I can't really describe it but I let go of outcome, truly. I believe the latest letter was him throwing his muscle around and thinking he can always threaten to leave and I will react. I think he wants any attention. In actuality, I just don't care that much anymore. I opted not to react to the letter but instead to watch. And, again, I just felt a piece of myself break off from him.

Within hours of leaving me the letter, h was texting about XMAS travel plans. I think he can read that I don't care. And so he in turn, is in the midst of a major peekout. He is chatting a LOT. He tells me he did x and he will do y. He tells me he went a to do b and he will be back at this time. I listen and validate, but mostly I sit still and watch.

Last night he asked for us to all to go out and grab a bite. He specifically asked me to come, by names. At the restaurant I was holding a table while h ordered. He asked if I wanted a drink. I said no thank you. He brought back two glasses of wine and said I had to join him. There was eye contact and on several occasions he spoke directly to me. I cracked a few jokes and he laughed a bit. He also had a sense of humor last night.

Today, further peeking out. He called me while I was out with the dog. That is a first in a lonnnng while. He asked if I was up for an adventure. I said "always." And he laughed. He proposed a few things we could all do tonight. He texted me a lot this morning as he was out and about. And so we are all planning on going out together again tonight.

I know the crash from this peekout will be a big one. I think come Monday or Tuesday he will duck into that dorm room and be MIA for quite sometime.

I am totally ready for it. The countdown begins . . .

[job]

HaWho,
I'm glad he's settled down (again) He goes through waves of pushing and when he sees that you aren't pushing back, he then settles down and tries he being nice routine. He's emotionally bouncing all over the place and he's just trying to find his place in the world once again. It's very sad to observe how they peel themselves right down to the core of their inner selves in order to get to the root of their issues. I am praying that once his crisis is over, he'll be a far more mature and happier man.

You have handled your situation w/grace and dignity and lots of patience. I do hope that you've got some plans for the rest of the holiday that will allow you a break from the MLC madness as well as time to just rest a bit.

Keep up the good work! You are an inspiration to many!

[HaWho]

Hi Job - yes, yes, that's pattern I see. I cannot determine what the root of the pushing is. Is it his way of keeping me as the problem by creating these scenarios where he has somewhere to project? Or maybe he sets up these scenarios to see if I will react the way his mother did when he was young?

Anyway, last night started off w/h telling us that he wanted to do what would make us all happy. That was interesting given his recent speech from the mountaintop about "I will now take some time and take care of ME." (Uhh, you are now at least 2 hard core years into taking care of you. Guess you have been so into yourself you haven't even realized you are only thinking of yourself?!?)

Overall, it was an okay night. He's just a sliver of himself, though. So empty. And that is hard to watch.

There were a few MLC oddities, as ever. H told S12 he was looking forward to good beach weather and said several times some thing like: "can't wait for the beach, man" or "when are we going to the beach, man?" H never used to talk this way and certainly not to his own kids. He is in pal mode with them. Previously, I did hear him talking this way to his never married, man/child MLC buddy.

At one point we were in an elevator with some young guys. They were in their 20's. They had been drinking and had watched the Warriors game. They asked my sons what they thought/who they rooted for. Being in their 20's I am sure they connected most with my kids. H, however, overtook the conversation and started talking to them hipster style. Ugh. I felt sorry for him. Anyway, I am sure he was frothing at the mouth to ditch us and go hang with them. I swear he looked longingly at them when they walked off to bar hop.

At one point he opened up and told me about that recent trip he took by himself: about the architecture, the food, the weather, etc. I mostly listened and asked a few questions. I didn't let on but, that is a sore subject for me, to be honest. Obviously, I know it's the withdrawal of depression but it's just so sad to me that he is so distanced that he would not want to experience that with his kids. Just pathetic as the time with them goes so fast. How much time does one need to himself? Well, in MLC, it's a whole lot--never enough. It is one of the truth darts I had given him a few weeks ago. I basically told him he's a father, not a 20 year old single adventurer. Maybe he received the memo as he said next time he will take us all to a nearby location near where he traveled.

I showed him some pictures from my NYC trip. It was a drainer. He used to be so intellectually curious about everything. He just didn't care. He seemed bored. His interest was not piqued at all. I remember being like that in my own depression. It was hard to be interested in anything at all.

Last night he did say, at one point, that we had not done something like this in so long and that it was nice.

I am getting ready for the turbulence to start.

[job]

Oh my! He's growing up just a wee bit and progressed on to a new age! LOL! The lingo sounds like he's in his late teen's early 20's. I can see him interrupting a bunch of 20 somethings and wanting to talk to them in hipster style. I can just imagine what they thought after they got off the elevator. Yup...they had a good chuckle over the "old" man trying to be the cool dude. BTW, I'm not surprised by the lingo...my xh was using "man" and "cool" for everything. At one point, I was ready to strangle him if the words man or cool came out of his mouth.

It's all about him and he wants to impress others so that he stands out and they look up to him or give him the attention he so craves. Him talking about his trip was to get your attention and comments. He wants to be important. As for your trip...he wasn't interested because it wasn't one that he took. Again, it wasn't his trip to get excited about.

I think it's interesting how he's flipped the switch from being the Mad Hatter to the person he is right now. My guess is that the stressors of having strangers (family) in the house was too much for him and the only way to get back at you for having them there was to become the mad hatter in a passive-aggressive manner. He may have also been having some issues that came up within himself at the same time as the visit and the projections were actually him having to deal w/being one big happy family vs. the environment he grew up in. He felt that he had lost control in his own home. No one knows what triggers the Mad Hatter, but I would venture to say all under the same roof and the attention was on them was getting a bit too much for the Mad Hatter.

He's still got a ways to go and there will be more bumps in the road ahead. Fasten your seatbelt and pull it tight because the Mad Hatter will be back out to play later on.

[HaWho]

Oh Job, I feel your pain with the hipster lingo. I have to turn away to hide my cringing. Yep, whenever he has any opportunity h is dropping "cool," "dude," and "man." He is desperate for some street credit from his peer group. LOL!

The whole elevator scene was totally bizarre. Even though the young boys were fairly drink they acted un-drunk for my boys. Know what I mean? They knew we were a family and seemed to respect that. When h overtook the convo. they buttoned it up because, well, they recognized they were talking to a 50 year old family man! Boy were they suprised when this stone sober family man of 50 started dropping "man" and "cool" to them. Even his body language changed and became more animated like a young man's does. I was waiting for him to try bumping chests with them. He was trying so hard to be a peer. And even in their drunkenness, they knew it was weird. They probably felt most sorry for me.

Oh, and this is all made weirder by the fact that he has decided to let his hair go a bit longer in the back. I hadn't really noticed it (too busy tracking the paranoia [see, I have bigger fish to fry]). By my sister noticed it and immediately said, get me the scissors so that I can cut that ridiculous hair. And then, for days when she talked to him, I noticed her staring at his hair and longing to cut it. It has the exact opposite effect he wants. It ages him as it dates his haircut to what he probably had 20 years ago. Ugh. Not a relevant style.

Job, I agree that the family visit totally stressed him out. I think he was embarrassed to be sleeping downstairs. Speaking of which, just today he was back to complaining about the dorm room. The dog needs a bath and h said we should do it outside. I said it was too cold for my baby. I joked I would bathe him in h's shower. H chuckled and said "no way." Then he barbed "I barely even fit in that shower. " (He was very angry about it and is very resentful of the smallness of that space. He is a tall/broad guy. But he also has told me many times, about his tiny "closet" childhood bedroom and here he's gone and made a real-life version of it!! Unbelievably, I don't think he even sees that this is what he's gone and done!!). Anyway, S12 joked "just your belly doesn't fit in that shower." H retorted "belly is sleak, it's just my broad shoulders that don't fit." There was a collective groan on that one. The dog was in the car with us and I am pretty sure I caught him rolling his eyes, too.

I keep wishing he would complain about the dorm room without the kids in hearing distance so I could jab him with that Wonka truth dart: "these are your choices and you continue to make them." Duh. No one forced him down there and he just keeps fortifying that MLC bunker.

If he ever wakes up, we'll keep it just the way it was--like a shrine to MLC. Visitors will come and I'll make a sweeping gesture with my palm and say, "yep, this is the room where my h grew up." That'll really confuse people as the house is younger than he is.

[job]

Do you suppose he keeps crying the blues about the dorm room and the bathroom being too small in the hopes that you'll say..."h, do you want to move back upstairs"? I know it's a touchy subject...but maybe next time just ask him the question and see what his response will be.

OMG! The hair! Don't be surprised if he comes home w/an ear pierced or a tattoo. They really experiment during this time and some of the stuff they do is really out of character for people their "adult" age.

I like the idea of keeping the dorm room as a shrine. I can just imagine what people would think. LOL!

[HaWho]

Job - I will ask him if he wants to move back upstairs the next time he gripes. Sadly, I have distanced enough not to really care what his answer is. My sense is he will be indignant and say no. I think he just likes to complain about his lot in life: under appreciated grown man, saddled with huge responsibilities, burdened by our very existence, etc. I could be wrong but I think right now he wants to cry a river and swim in a pool of snotty tissues.

He certainly excels at it.

[Wonka]

Oh Lord! Let's all hope that Mr. Teen doesn't grow a mullet! That is sooooo 1980s. rolling eyes

The next time he complains about his teensy tiny bathroom, just state in your best matter of fact voice, "you know there's other bathrooms to choose from in this house"

[Sotto]

Oh my goodness.....I hate that longer hair thing - the whole 'I don't have much on top so I'll grow it down the back.' Hopefully ponytails won't be involved.

My Dad had a comb over for years and he looked so much better when he got rid of it.

I was listening to a radio show and someone wrote in to say they saw a middle aged guy (in the city where H lives) wearing red trousers and a cravat - oh no, is that XH I thought?

You know, reading your sitch I'm struck by how draining it must be to live with the whole - PA, bemoaning fate kind of behaviour. It would be refreshing to be with someone who works through things, says how he's feeling and can express his needs assertively and respectfully - oh well...

Glad things have settled down a little for you just now anyway xx

[BrightFuture]

HaWho, I’ve been keeping up with your story. Your poor H… I just cannot imagine what is going on in his head that makes him act like this. I’m not sure I want to compare MLC to some mental deceases, to the extend… kml’s comments reminded me of my first ex mother-in-law. Sometimes I could not believe the stuff that would come out of her mouse. Later, I’ve leant that she had a mental condition. It explained a lot. I certainly hope that your H doesn’t have any mental stuff in generally, besides begin in full blown MLC, which is “curable” with time, I hope.

His Mother’s actions are definitely bizarre. No wonder he has to process all of that stuff that happened to him when he was a child. I sure hope that he sorts it all out for his sake and for the sake of his family.

OMG, MLC shrine… You can generate some income from opening it to public, LOL.

HaWho, I would not want him to move back upstairs right now. At least now you can get your good sleep while he is making his music and plans for next Christmas in his dorm room.

HaWho, take care of yourself. This is not an easy stuff to handle. You are doing a great job!

[job]

HaWho,
It's time to start a new thread.

[HaWho]

Next thread is found here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2682745#Post2682745