I was shown that it started to fall apart when middle class got wealthy enough to have houses for each generation and technology shrank the world. Gone were the days of 3 generations sharing a house, and extended family living together as a family. Gone were the small communities in which we each had a role to play, in which we all shared the same friends, neighbors, and social circles. In short, gone were the days in which you were 'stuck' with what you got.
I'm gonna disagree with this one as moving back in with my family is what really sent my husband spiraling into depression and MLC.... Then again you haven't met my parents
When it comes down to it, in all aspects of life (not just marriage) there are some personalitities that are committed and loyal, and others that believe they are but when the going gets tough they are just not capable of it. We really have no other choice but to accept what was chosen for us. There are successful first, and second, and third marriages out there. Especially for those that want them and have done the work to make them successful. I really believe that had I known then what I know now, my marriage would have been successful.
Sometimes, I do feel that perhaps my husband was stronger then me to be able to leave something that was not good for him. Our marriage was not good for me either. I do not/ did not have the strength to electively choose death of my husband (that's why this hurts me so much...it's an elective death). In all honestly, I would have been willing to put any work in to avoid divorce and I would have stuck by husband through anything (except infidelity) But I have to admit, I am feeling a bit happier now and more hopeful for what future may bring (realize this feeling could be temporary)
I was shown that it started to fall apart when middle class got wealthy enough to have houses for each generation and technology shrank the world. Gone were the days of 3 generations sharing a house, and extended family living together as a family. Gone were the small communities in which we each had a role to play, in which we all shared the same friends, neighbors, and social circles. In short, gone were the days in which you were 'stuck' with what you got.
I'm gonna disagree with this one as moving back in with my family is what really sent my husband spiraling into depression and MLC.... Then again you haven't met my parents
When it comes down to it, in all aspects of life (not just marriage) there are some personalities that are committed and loyal, and others that believe they are but when the going gets tough they are just not capable of it. We really have no other choice but to accept what was chosen for us. There are successful first, and second, and third marriages out there. Especially for those that want them and have done the work to make them successful. I really believe that had I known then what I know now, my marriage would have been successful.
Sometimes, I do feel that perhaps my husband was stronger then me to be able to leave something that was not good for him. Our marriage was not good for me either. I do not/ did not have the strength to electively choose death of my husband (that's why this hurts me so much...it's an elective death). In all honestly, I would have been willing to put any work in to avoid divorce and I would have stuck by husband through anything (except infidelity) But I have to admit, I am feeling a bit happier now and more hopeful for what future may bring (realize this feeling could be temporary)
I also think there's a couple of other factors that were present in those times Zues dreamed about - less of a financial ability to divorce (same reason several generations lived together - it wasn't for the joy of it, it was often out of poverty), and more of a social stigma attached to divorce. I don't think affairs were that much less common.
Juju, I was willing to even forgive infidelity and work through it - but H wants us to separate because he thinks he's got the wrong partner, that we're just wrong for each other, or that there's too much wrong compared to what's right. At this time, he sees mostly what's wrong.
I can see that some people are a better fit than others, but most of us are not going to find the perfect person and will have to work at it and make compromises with our partners. I'm upset with H for giving up on us and our M, although I see that I may be happier with someone else. I could be happy with H, too, if he would work with me.
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
Sunny, years may pass but we'll always share scaly tails. Lots going on, happy to provide an update!
Well, work is picking up. I have closed more deals in the last 3 weeks than in the prior 3 months. Phew! In the winter I was stressed about hitting goals, now I'm stressed about keeping up on the vast river of business flowing my way. Good problems to have. What's really cool, really, really, really cool...2 weeks ago my kids were on spring break and I had to work from home while I took care of them for two days. I was in the bedroom while they were in the living room. I closed 6 deals (half a month's work) in my bedroom, in between running out and making them sandwiches for lunch. I have closed two deals on the phone while driving them home, one the customer met me in the family room of my apartment while my kids were watching a move in the flat. The reason this is such a relief was that my 50% custody kicks in 6/1, and I have been stressed at how I'm going to do more pickup/dropoffs and still hit my goals. This was not only a huge week businesswise, but proved I can probably pull this off.
The big next step is finding a new place to live. My lease is up end of June, and I am determined to rent a house that has space for my kids, AND my pool table! My son is about to turn 12, my daughters are 9 and 5 (haven't updated my sig for a while), so they should have two bedrooms minimum, three if I'm lucky. They've been sharing ONE bedroom for over a year now, that can't go on. And Zues can't go on without a pool table. I need to have that cue in my hand. It makes me happy. I like playing poker and chess online, but pool is my game. Need the table set back up. So I've been starting to look. I put together a powerful coversheet that tells potential landlords about me- who I am, a little context on what I am looking for, where I am coming from, my job, my income, my credit, and just about me. It's pretty cool. Really anyone that gets to know me will see I stand apart from the mass of potential tenants. I think they'll be lucky to have me, just have to find someone with a space near my kids' schools. Man, it will be hard to be working full time and having to pick them up at different times at different schools. If I can get on their bus line that would be money. We shall see.
The good news is that my mother is a professor and off in the summers, so she'll be staying with me 3 months out of the year to help with the kids. When she has stayed with me over the past 18 months it is SUCH a help. Laundry now and then, cleaning, dishes. Watching kids for a bit here and there. It reminds me of how much easier it is when I had a partner. It's a great break. Plus the kids LOVE my mom, so it's a true win.
Pool and poker updates are trivial, I play good, I win a lot, it's fun. Nothing crazy. I'm sure once I have my table and my life settles down I'll compete in some bigger events, we'll see. For now just to stay competitive.
Divorce was final in December but the finances are still flopping around, I'm meeting with my lawyer on Tuesday to see if we can nail down a financial proposal. It's so stupid, I am working SO SO SO hard, full time plus, while taking on more and more with the kids, running around like crazy...XW still hasn't worked a day, she is taking 1 college class per semester, and is applying for student aid/government aid/maintenance/support/and every assistance under the planet. All while she lives in the house I bought. I don't wish her ill but things are so lopsided it's appalling. My mom gets upset and I just tell her "There's what is fair, and there is what I need. This is so far from fair that if you think about it you get ill, but instead I just count my blessings that I'll always have what I need". Because I'm so awesome at what I do, I'm a winning lottery ticket, I can start over and I'll be in a great spot in a few years anyway, that's how I roll...and even if I'm broke I've got the ability to appreciate what's around me. But I won't be, because I'm the gingerbread man. Anyway, trying to nail down finances pretty soon. That will be nice to put an end to these shenanigans, and to be done paying $1,000/month to my lawyer.
What's left? Me? Personally? Emotions? Well, I'm doing ok. Better than ever. I don't think it's that the D doesn't hurt anymore, but I think it hurt so bad for so long I am numb to it, and I'm free to enjoy my life now. I don't think I'll ever recover, but I do think that it won't hurt anymore either, if that makes sense. I hear about other people dating, gosh, I don't see how that's possible. See, when I think R, I think lifelong partnership with the mother of my kids, spending our lives together. I can't quite wrap my head around a stunt double that just jumps in and plays the role of W in one part of my life while I parent my children on the other half of my life. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of another woman being their 'mom', nor diverting time away from them right now. So no women in my future for a long time. But maybe in a year or two when things are stable, you never know. Point is though that I just don't think you can fill the hole from the D, ever. BUT- there is just so much to be appreciative of, I don't really care anymore. I'm happy.
Closing with my kids. It's so amazing. My time with them is awesome. Reading to them still. Playing music. Teaching them to do dishes and cook. Homework. Games. Chess. Walks. Movies. Projects for my s11 on his computer. Our time is priceless. It hurts I don't have them 50%, but < 2 months away, so read it and weep!
All in all Sunny, I'm super busy, but busy good, everything is good, when I'm with my kids it's great, I love my job, I love my hobbies, and I love the little bit of time I spend telling you about it all. Only thing missing is the alligators, most rental properties frown on those.
Still stalking you on your thread. It's tricky, once you get past BD you realize many of us don't have all that much in common once the crisis is over. But maybe that's the beauty of these forums. We get to meet all types of people and form some pretty powerful bonds that stretch across the years.
Hang in there everyone, it doesn't get better, but you stop caring and it then it sneaks up on you that it kinda does
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Love this post, Zues! Especially the last part. You seem to be finding your "groove" with what your life is becoming. Your positive outlook is peeping through, as well. Enjoy your time with your little people (I know you are); they grow up so fast!
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
Housing: I signed a lease on a rental house for 6/1. I have been renting a two bedroom apartment while S11, D9, and D5 share one bedroom. Now I will have rooms for each of them, and room for my pool table as well. I'm still not back to 'where I was' as I had 12 years left on a mortgage on a nicer place and now I will be renting for 3-5 years before starting from payment 1 again...but it's all a joke anyway, I've got what I need to take care of my family, not everyone is so fortunate, and I am excited to be able to play some pool again.
I get 50% custody starting 6/1 as well. Boom. It will be a challenge, but I will make it work. My new place is close to their schools. Also, my mom is a professor with summers off retiring next year. She will be staying with me during the summers to help take care of kids while they aren't in school. Very cool.
Work: Been a bit of a roller coaster. Not bad, but not the dominant killer I normally am. Still hoping that after the schedule change, move, and financial settlement are all behind me things continue to settle and I find more and more energy for work. That said, my therapist told me in our last session that maybe I just wouldn't be #1 at everything anymore. That I only have so much energy, and that as I do more as a dad, I might have to accept others around me with wives taking on most of the child raising or that are single without families might surpass me. He said this was reality, and it's ok. It's a new idea to not be the best, but maybe I can just do a good job and pay my bills and be ok with that.
Kids: Doing great. We're still reading lord of the rings, and I got them T-shirts with the one ring on them in different colors. Just a little thing that makes us smile. I got myself one with a map of middle earth. It's SO cool, I read the story as a kid, but now reading it again as an adult I am picking up subtleties that are so awesome. Truly LOTR is the most epic fantasy adventure ever. And my kids are picking up my enthusiasm. Going for walks a lot, it's finally nice in Minnesota. Just living. D9 is playing a little pool. Just awesome watching them grow. And I'm really great at exploring life with them. They are learning so much from me and I'm proud to see them combine my best qualities with their individual awesomeness.
Pool: I ran 137 balls a few weeks ago in straight pool. This is my all time high run. Before it was 126. In fact, that's where the 126 came from in my screen name. Obviously I was proud of that, so it is cool to think my best days aren't behind me. Took 1st and 2nd in a tournament recently. Hitting them pretty good, when I'm not exhausted from life. Did I mention I'll have a table in my place next month? Can't wait!
Relationships: Yeah right.
So, I haven't been on these boards much lately. I feel the newcomers deserve to hear from others that have similar focuses, and also those that have hope for their relationship as I am much more cynical. I'll explain why, and what I've been doing with my time instead.
I think we're just too entitled to form lasting relationships. Maslow created the "hierarchy of needs". He basically postulated that people operate with the following priorities: Physical needs (food, water, shelter, sexual instinct) that the human race needs to survive, Safety, Love/belonging, Esteem/respect, Self actualization, and self-transcendence.
The idea is that we focus on the primary needs first, then as those needs are met we tend to focus on the next level of needs. So if you're freezing to death you're not worried about if you are respected at work. But once you feel cozy and safe and loved, these things become important.
My theory is that the quality of marriage used to be lower in terms of not having all the higher level needs being met...but life was hard, and couples stayed together to meet physical, financial, and other more base needs. These days we are so wealthy and entitled we take these needs for granted, and in fact we don't need a partner to be physically secure and safe. So now we focus on higher and higher level of needs. People's expectations are nearly impossible to achieve, and if they are met it is fleeting until people and life change and when inevitably there is a disruption the bomb gets dropped. This is what I've seen. Listening to people talk about what's important to them in a partner is just gross to me these days.
On top of that, my experience going through this divorce has been pretty unpleasant. Divorce law is complex and it's not really possible to have a set of guidelines that is fair to everyone all the time. Indeed, 'fair' isn't really in play. Take spousal maintenance. If a man has a SAHM wife raising his kids and suddenly abandons her to run off with some younger woman, I can see why it makes sense to make sure he provides to a point so she can take care of the children until she can take over the provider role in her own life. On the other hand, in my case where my SAHM BD'd me and refused to take any responsibility for her life it isn't right that I should have to provide for her for years as she plays the field and parties without working one day in 2 years.
Instead of the divorce forums, I've become intrigued in learning more about the state of relationships. Learning about the differences between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd waive feminism. Learning about MGTOW (Men going their own way), a group of men's rights activists basically saying the marriage has become a raw deal and in today's environment it is better to opt out. And learning about many view points in between such as the traditionalists that liked things how they were years back, without the overt inequality women faced for so long (and still face in some areas).
I am not rigidly aligned with any of these groups, indeed I am a bit confused by it all. In the end it just supports my theory that things are too complicated. There once was one set of beliefs, defined by society and religion. We once had to focus on survival and didn't have time to even wonder if we were 'in love', because that was beside the point, so we stayed together and truly loving feelings had time to form. Now everyone has their own opinions, and it is impossible that they could ever match and stay aligned, and inevitably the R fails.
This is definitely cynical, but it's how I tend to view things. I am learning about these topics to try to understand what the heck happened, and I still sometimes hope their's a solution that equates to me being able to achieve a relationship that isn't so fickle. But it really doesn't look promising and while I don't agree with all the beliefs of the MGTOW group, I am starting to feel they have the right idea with just giving up on the idea of relationships as a practical endeavor.
The positive optimistic side of all of this is that while I'm still grieving the loss of the idea of having a relationship, I am doing better than ever day to day. Good family, friends, and everything I need in my life. Appreciation is the overwhelming mantra of the day and I couldn't be more blessed. My life has never been better, and the feelings towards XW and my former M are all but done. As you all know by now I don't really care about feelings in terms of deciding to do what's right, but it is nice when the wounds have healed and the scars start to fade away.
To my DB friends. I miss you. I can't remember all of your user names, there have been so many. But you know who you are. Know that you have made a difference in my life when I needed you, and that your strength has helped me in my journey to do the best I can.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Great to hear from you, Zues137! I just realized that I have moved in next door to you.
Sounds like you are doing great, and I bet you can't wait to get settled in your new home and have more time with the kids.
I think your theory about modern marriages sounds very probable. It requires us to know ourselves better and be able to voice our feelings in a thoughtful manner. I don't think that's necessarily a step back. I also think it's a good thing that people don't have to stay in relationships for financial reasons, because that was a very vulnerable situation for women.
On the part about divorce and financial settlements, think of it this way: Two partners own a company together, 50/50. One of them is out visiting clients and getting contracts all day. The other manages the office, answers the phone, orders whatever is needed to fulfill the contracts, etc. So one is bringing in money, the other is spending. They're still equal owners.
The 'office' partner decides to leave and wants out. There would be a financial settlement that includes real estate and other assets, maybe future income from current contracts, etc.. You wouldn't expect that person to leave without being bought out? Because it wasn't an *employee*, it was an equal partner. It doesn't make a difference that that partner didn't generate the income directly.
Now if a partner does something to the detriment of the 'company', it would be an entirely different situation...
In my case, I'm not getting alimony until I can support myself. I'm getting a settlement because a contract agreement was dissolved. It's not about me being my own provider, I was for 15+ years until I left my job and career opportunities to help H raise his children. So no, he doesn't get to kick me out without compensating me. I invested years in our 'family company' and made it possible for him to have a job without losing his children to his crazy ex. And take care of his aging mother. And there were no assets, so alimony is all I got. I have to save it all to make up for having no retirement, no home, nothing at all.
Do I think a partner who has an affair and leaves a M should receive alimony? Probably not. And by law in the state I resided in until recently, he/she wouldn't. Adultery is a misdemeanor, so that to me would equal - oh, embezzling from the family company or something like that.
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
Thanks for the post painter! Are you living in MN now?
I understand what you're saying about financial settlements. I think the difference is that a business endeavor is 100% financial, whereas marriage is not.
Right or wrong, marriage has often played out as a socially accepted form of prostitution, in which a man wants a partner to meet his sexual needs, and a woman wants a man to provide for her so she can raise children. This is biological and has played out this way historically. Whether that is 'right' or still entirely accurate is open for debate.
My point is if that is the deal that men and women are making, there is a big difference post marriage. Men are expected to provide for women's financial needs, but women no longer have to consider men's physical needs. Chris Rock did a bit about this as well. He talks about the judge ordering a man to pay alimony for years because a woman became accustomed to a certain lifestyle. He joked about how it would sound if the judge decreed that he should be able to stop by his XW's place 3 times a week because he became accustomed to frequent sex.
This is just a joke, of course. But i don't think it's as simple as saying 'you were a team so you should both get half of everything', because money was only one dimension of the deal which was made, and is why I believe women are the majority of divorce seekers; they can get some of what they wanted post D (in terms of financial support), men can't.
In the end I know that men and women will feel differently on this topic, and even within the genders there will be a wide spectrum of opinion. And of course every situation is different, and I realize there are men getting maintenance, and all kinds of exceptions to these generalizations. I am not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out it is complicated. And the fact that the majority of D's are filed by women doesn't change the fact that millions of men are walking away and these boards are full of wonderful women like yourself that are now picking up the pieces of their lives. In the end no one wins in a divorce.
As for the bit about there being positives with the elevated standards required to maintain a relationship...I have thought of this too, and I am mixed. Obviously I am grateful that women aren't trapped in abusive relationships because of financial dependence. And I've tried to twist my perspective to look at it as a good thing, that the entitled attitudes force us to grow and step up our games, so the marriages that do survive are higher quality. But does that help us if they don't last at all? Somewhere between people being trapped and forced to endure abuse, and the institution of marriage ending as we know it while people jump from fling to fling protecting their individual freedom, is there a middle way? I'm not sure that we'll find it on this Earth, maybe a few individuals will, but as a society I think that a happy marriage as we conceive it is a unicorn that we all chase. I don't think there has ever been a culture in which happy marriages as we would define them exist in any real quantity, and the fact that we think we're so special they just HAVE to because we WANT one doesn't change that fact.
So again, my cynicism regarding what marriage is all about, why it doesn't work, and what a raw deal it is, all lead me to saying 'good luck y'all!'. This could come off as negative, but for me it feels like accepting reality, adjusting my expectations to what the world offers, and being appreciative for what I have instead of resentful God didn't make the world the way I wanted it.
PS- Painter, I'm following your thread too. Congrats on the job, and keep hanging in!
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
