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2T, thanks for sharing “the insight into MLC mind”. It is very interesting and very telling… about what’s going on in their minds indeed. Good for you for being honest with him and telling him what you’ve been feeling and thinking.

My impression from this is that he is still in Replay, but it is not giving him what he’s been looking for. He is trying all kind of activities and new things in hopes that he will find the answer for never ending happiness and passion (sigh…) I agree with Job, that if you have enough patience and are willing to give it some more time, you might see this through. I’m in a sort of a similar boat in terms of not being in a hurry with a D and giving this sitch some more time. Except my situation is different since H doesn’t come “home” to spend some time with me and family. We just have a business together, even though my part is not related to his and vice versa. However, I can relate how he is just like your H is not seeing any way to rekindle the R, probably having some guilt, and yes, has no passion…

It is interesting that your H realizes that some of his buddies (groups) behavior is ridiculous. And weight lifting is just “something to do”, LOL. Job is spot on, as always smile that he is not having as much fun as he pretends to have or would like to have.

2T, congratulations on hitting the item on our list with the mall shopping! I think you are doing great. I will be taking a page out of your book in case I need to have an honest conversation with my H about the state of the affair… At some point this needs to happen. I mean the conversation and the rest.


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Thanks Job and Bright for stopping by.

I've been thinking about your comment, Job, about the mask falling when the darkness falls. I wonder if having OW spend the evening and possibly the night is a way of keeping the night demons at bay? Like I said, I just don't get a serious vibe about her. He didn't have that "sparkle" in his eye when he brought her up like he did with the first one. But, then we didn't talk about her much at all. I could be way off, but I'm not picking up on the "urgency" that came with first one.

Bright, it's interesting that some people think they can just remain married and each partner can go off and live separate lives as if they aren't. I get that if it's for insurance or business or similar purposes, but when it isn't necessary ... why? Apparently where H is now, it's completely common. There are a lot of arranged marriages where the partners end up going in totally different directions, get involved with OP and even have kids, but they stay married so as not to bring shame on their families. In my mind, that is much more shameful than a D, but it's apparently totally acceptable there. It seems like that kind of stuff has polluted H's morals.

I imagine you will some day reach a point where you will want to move on and the talk will come. I can't imagine how I would handle things with no face to face interaction at all. You are a strong woman.

As for all the activities, your post got me thinking about all the stuff H has or says he's gotten involved with over there ...
  • The first OW
  • A business project that he poured himself into and couldn't make a success
  • A motorcycle
  • Racket Ball for a while
  • Golf (he did here long ago)
  • The Frat Boy Running club
  • A dive trip with a buddy he later dumped because the guy was a drunk
  • Joining a rec club so he could swim
  • Manicures
  • Massages
  • Cosmetic eye surgery
  • A new camera so he could get "back into" photography. I haven't heard it mentioned since and haven't seen any photos.
  • A second dive trip
  • Yoga/meditation retreats
  • Moving to a new apartment, where "buddies come to hang out every evening."
  • Biking club
  • Veneers on his teeth
  • Weight lifting
  • 2nd OW
  • Overnight motorcycle trip with buddies

I'm sure I'm missing some. I figure sooner or later, he HAS to run out of things to try. Right? Sooner or later, he has to wear himself out. Right? I guess only time will tell. I mean ... I'd be totally exhausted!

On a more serious note, he has been much different this trip back. He's been kind, considerate and completely respectful to me. He's come down on BIL a couple of times (BIL deserves it) and I saw shades of anger, but he kept it under control. But, with me there's been nothing but the best behavior.

I think asking him to move out of the house and going very dim with him has gotten across to him my respect boundary. Prior to that, he was horrible to me. It's 180 degrees different this time. We'll see if that lasts.

Saw the dermatologist today about the spot on my nose. She thinks it's either overactive oil glands or basal cell carcinoma. She wanted to do a biopsy by basically scraping it off my nose. When I asked about scarring, she said it would leave a scar (that would have been a pretty good size right in the center of my nose) and the only other option was to see a plastic surgeon to do the biopsy surgery and then a second surgery if it was cancerous. I told her we were talking about my face and I will risk two surgeries rather than be scarred up for life with a big scar if I could get away with just a couple of very small stitches. So that's where that stands.

Dinner with H tonight for the last time before he heads back.

All in all, this trip home hasn't been as bad as I expected. Yeah, the OW is pretty bad, but there is definitely something different in H's demeanor. Job, I think I'm going to bide my time for a while and see what happens. I have no reason to rush anything, so why do it.


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Just got back from dinner and OMG is he confused. So, more glimpses into the MLC mind as I relate this stuff.

We talked a lot about business and he implored me to keep him informed about what's going on over here. I explained how I felt about being between him and his brother and he said don't ever worry about that. He also said, without elaboration, that BIL puts blame on me for some of his missteps. I knew that. H did say, though, that he would believe me over BIL so I feel good that he still believes I have his best interest at heart, which I do. BIL is the type to shirk accountability and I'm so glad H finally sees that.

So, H is beginning to see that his plan (BIL running ops here) is not working out like he thought it would. FINALLY!

In the course of that convo, we both agreed that we didn't need to make any decisions today (alluding to D but that word never came up) but had time to sort things out. I think D is on the back burner for now, at least as far as he is concerned. For me, we'll see how the next couple of months go. I can take my time.

Toward the end of dinner, the convo turned to our personal relationship. He said he cared deeply about me and what happened to me in the future but he didn't have love for me. I said I understood that because I felt the same way about him, but I can't have loving feelings for him when he's always f'ing gone. (I rarely use the f word, so it had some impact.) I said there was no way for him to light my fire or me to light his when we were apart all the time. He said I had a point. What the heck does that mean?

I told him (after a period of thoughtful silence) that I really had to question if what we were doing was complete idiocy. I talked about how we had started out with pretty much nothing between the two of us and together we had achieved what we have today. I said I felt like we would both be worse off by going separate ways and the thing that bugged me the most about the whole situation. I said I questioned if this was a huge mistake. He said he questioned if what he was doing was the right thing, but he just didn't want to live here. He started to get a little agitated at this point.

That led me to calmly ask him why he didn't want to live here because I had never really asked him to express why he felt that way. He said he just he didn't. I pushed and asked why? What are the reasons? He really had to think about it, dig for a response, and finally came up with some answers. It was mostly political stuff but I think someone is influencing him here. His best friend left the US and I suspect that guy is bashing the US to him.

I told him I was concerned about his future. I said it had nothing to do with our personal R, but I cared about him and what happened to him. He thanked me for that. I said, "For instance, if you got really ill, would the friends you have there take care of you?" He immediately said, "No." So they are superficial friends who wouldn't really be there for him in a time of great need and he knows it.

I told him that some of his decisions really made me scratch my head. He said, "I scratch my head about some of my decisions, too." I can't remember the exact words he used, but he essentially said he knew his decisions may not be sound ones. So, he is apparently questioning his ability to make sound decisions.

I said I understood about the living in the US thing, but where is better? Europe? He said no. The Middle East? He said no. The Far East? He said no. I went on and every answer was no. I said that if I were in my 20s, moving somewhere else in the world might make sense, but at our age, it may not be a smart thing to do. He agreed with that, to my surprise.

I said that I had a lot of thinking to do about my future and that I wanted to take the time to figure out what I wanted in my life. I said I didn't want to move to Timbuktu and discover that I hated it and end up moving again after a year. He said he really hadn't thought that far into the future about where he wanted to live and such.

As he dropped me off, he said we needed to talk more. When I asked him to move out of the house, I told him I didn't want to talk to him other than business and I've pretty much stuck to that. H has alluded to that a couple of times while he's been here and I told him he could call whenever he liked. He's missed me??? He's missed talking to me???

Overall, I can see an incredibly confused man. He's a mess and I so wish I could help him, but I can't. I've done all I can think of to do to let him know that the door is open if chooses to walk through it and at the same time let him know that I am planning and ready to move on without him. I've said all I can think of to make him think twice about this new OW without calling her a home-wreaking s%$t. The ball is in his court. He has a lot to think about. Only time will tell what happens. Fortunately, I have time.


Me: 59 and holding
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T: 23
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H leaves tomorrow. My first thought about this "visit" is who is this guy?

My take away is that he's very confused and trying to figure out why he's done some of the things he's done and is still doing. The confusion and pain are so obvious that it just breaks my heart.

He tries to hide it, but he is very emotional. The day we spent together when the R talking started, he started wiping away tears, then said he had to go to the bathroom and shut the door (which he usually doesn't do ... even now). I think he was crying and had to pull himself together.

It is so sad to watch, but I stood strong ... doing my best to let him know the door is open, but I'm not counting on him walking through it.

All I can say at this point is this guy is very different from one I've been dealing with the past 2 1/2 years. Uncharted waters here.


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2x2Many - it must be awfully confusing when they wake up a little and wonder what they have done/what they are doing. How frightening to scratch your own head at the decisions you are making.

It must help a little bit to hear him apologize for the way he's treated you, though? And for a guy who spends a lot of time talking about his "friends" and how he needs to be social, he certainly sounds lonely.

And yes, he seems lost from himself.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
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HaWho, it was good to hear him apologize. I can't count how many times he used the phrase "I regret." The thing I liked hearing the most was, "None of this was your fault. You didn't do anything wrong." I just replied that I realized that. I said I knew I had my issues, but none of them rose to the level of causing something like this. He validated!

But I know he's not done baking so I think I'll just bide my time for a while and see what happens next with him while I keep working on me and moving forward.

Job, I had to chuckle when he left the office this morning because he reminded me of what you said about MLCers not having a sense of time. He gave me a hug and said "See you in a couple of weeks." He's not due back until July and the last time I looked at the calendar, that looked to be a little more than a couple of weeks. confused

Sadly, I had to cancel my trip to see my sister this weekend. I've come down with a cold and given the issues she's had with respiratory problems, I just didn't want to take the chance of making her sick. I'll reschedule for some time in June. I was really looking forward to seeing her and her h.

I just made the appointment for the plastic surgeon to address the issue, whatever it is, on my nose. That also comes up in June. That surgeon is through our HMO. The laser treatments I've been getting are done in another plastic surgeons office and I have another treatment in two weeks. I think I'm going to see if I can get a consult with one of the surgeons there for a second opinion about my nose. I'm always leery of dermatologists. They sometimes seem so focused on fixing the skin issue that they don't really care about how you look when they're done. Hope I haven't offended anyone here.


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2T, I glad that you got some apologies. I am pretty sure it would make feel better too. It gives me hope that maybe one day I will also receive some apologies from my H. I think you are making the right decision to not bring the D subject and give it some more time. I was just looking through my notes that I keep from this board, some books, some other online sites that I read, etc. Here is one that Wonka posted on some thread (I don’t know if I can find it now, but I have the copy of her post, and I hope she doesn’t mind me quoting her):
“MLCers are dead set in D because they cannot cope with the M and are not available to nuture the M. Their coping mechanisms are broken down at this point and cannot deal with the enormity of their sitch. Again, ignore H's comment every time he brings up D talk. If he persists, just simply say, "Sure go ahead and file D. However, I will not do the papewerwork for you."

I thought about you when I read this. I remember you said that your H was bringing the D subject every time he came for a visit, except for the last few visits. Maybe it is not applicable anymore, but I thought I would post it for you. You are pretty much already told him something similar anyway.

Originally Posted By: 2Times2Many
All I can say at this point is this guy is very different from one I've been dealing with the past 2 1/2 years. Uncharted waters here.

This is something, 2T! At least there is some movement! I’m sure you can figure out what to do with the “new” guy, LOL.

I’m leery of dermatologists too… How big is this spot? Does it bother you? I recently watched some documentary about cancer. It just enforced my belief that there are some alternative treatments to cutting, chemo, radiation, etc. Have you tried to research on this? Just my opinion. I know a lot of people don’t believe in alternative treatments. I just hope you will get this taken care off in the best possible way.

2T, take care. And thank for always stopping at my thread.


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Wow, now that's a biggie: hearing that none of this was your fault. Bright is spot on, that is movement! Given his confusion I would be very curious to know how much he even remembers about all that he did do? Hmm.

Thanks for sharing.

Best of luck finding a specialist. I am thinking the plastic surgeons may be able to show you projected "after" pictures? Maybe they even have before and afters of similar procedures from other patients.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Hi HW and Bright. Thanks for stopping by.

I did manage to schedule a consult on the nose thing that coincides with my next laser treatment. The surgeon is the same one who did H's eye surgery a couple of years ago and I was impressed with her work. I don't know anything about the HMO surgeon except he looks young, has 9 years experience and I guess that since he's associated with the HMO, there is not a lot of results info out there. It also bugged me a little that his office called me to schedule the procedure and didn't want to do a consult first. The nurse said he looked at the pictures the dermatologist sent over and talked to her, and he didn't need a consult. That doesn't sit quite right with me.

Bright, the spot is maybe a quarter of inch in diameter and is right smack in the middle of the top of my nose.

Thank you for sharing Wonka's quote. I think it's right on the money. H has been all over the place about D. He wants one, he doesn't want one, he wants one. He doesn't want to be a husband, he doesn't want to be married, he can't give me what I need, he isn't capable of being a husband. Then he wants to try, he doesn't want a d. Then back to a D. All over the place.

Of course, his big fantasy is for us to D and stay business partners and friends. I shot that down the first time he said it and had to shoot it down again during this last trip. I chalk that garbage up to MLC thinking because if he was thinking clearly, he'd know I would never agree to something like that. If he really wants a D, he can do the dirty work and I will make it a clean cut. I won't be hanging around in any capacity.

So, I want to jot down some thoughts about this last trip because I don 't want to forget them and want to be able to refresh my memory later. Please bear with me. I think this will be long.

H seems to be very open to suggestion ...

I suggested to H that now that he had a nice smile he might consider changing his WhatsApp pic to one with a smile instead of the serious one he has now. He found one on his phone and changed the pic that night.

When we went shopping, he wanted my opinion on what color shirt to buy. I suggested a color saying it brought out his eyes and he bought it. He wore it the next day.

He wanted my help in selecting a pair of pants to match some shirts he had. He bought what I suggested.

He asked for my help in selecting pictures to take back to hang on his walls even though I have no clue what his place or his furniture looks like.

It came across to me that he wants help in decision making. That seemed odd to me because for the past two years he's been adamant about what he wants and how he wants things done.

This is the kind of stuff that really concerns me. He has a friend over there that is married, but hasn't seen his wife in 10 years. They stay M for financial reasons. The guy has been living with the same OW for most of that time. I think this is where H gets the idea that we can go separate ways and continue to be business partners.

This same guy told H that he should divide his day into thirds. One third work, one third play, one third sleep. H said that after he calls into the office, his play time starts. I told him I knew that and I'd made a point not to interfere with his "me" time or his life over there. He said he knew that.

I really have some concerns about how these kinds of people influence him given where his head is at. But there's nothing I can do about it

Social Activities ...

H has insisted for some time that he is a "social animal" and insinuated that I have held him back and prevented him from enjoying a social life. I enjoy getting out and having some fun, but I don't want to do it every night, I want to enjoy the company of people who behave like adults and I don't want them at my house every night of the week.

I gave that some thought and brought it back up the next day. I told him that I had social activity all day long at the office. That we joked, talked about sports, politics, movies, etc. and when I got home, I wanted a little quiet time. I said he, on the other hand, spent his day in solitude, working out of his apt. so at the end of the day, he wanted some interaction and stimulation through social activity. I told him that when I had several days off with nothing on my agenda, I was the same way. After a couple of days I was climbing the walls and wanted to get out of the house.

He looked thoughtful and said he never thought about it that way. Then he recalled the organization we used to work for and the days we would drive home and just wanted quiet ... we didn't even turn on the radio.

Happiness ....

He said he wanted to be happy and he wanted me to be happy but he knew that came from the inside. I told him I thought about happiness and the last time I was truly, blissfully happy. I said it was .... he finished the sentence with the exact time period I was going to say, which was just before MLC part 1. He said he thinks he was happy then because his needs and his wants were the same and both were met. He said he'd never thought about that before and would have to give it some more thought.

I told him I wanted that kind of happiness again but I knew I couldn't find it living the way I was now. He started talking about the "happy" things he did and that led to a discussion about the difference between being happy and enjoying the pleasure of the moment.

His friends ...

He said a lot of his friends didn't work. He said they had inherited valuable property, mortgaged it, bought rental property and lived off that. He said they spent most of their time with social activities. (That bad influence again.) I said that must be nice, but I accepted long ago that I was a Saturday's child and I would have to work hard for a living.

I brought that up again the next day and said that based on what I had read, men especially, needed to accomplish things, build things (like his business) and provide for their families. I questioned what kind of satisfaction or fulfillment his friends got from the way they lived. He kind of defended them. I said I could never do "nothing" and I didn't think he was the type to do that either. He said, no, he couldn't and that he had to have something productive to do. That was completely opposite his plan to let BIL run the company while he did little to no work and still made money

Depression ...

H met my IC many years ago when I was having some unrelated issues, so he knows her. I was talking about how much she has helped me and mentioned that she was concerned about him. I said that based on things I had said, she wondered if he was depressed.

H said he wasn't depressed but was "depressive." He clarified saying not manic/depressive, but he had depressive thoughts. He said he would imagine how other people were thinking or feeling and he always imagined the worst. I said he had done that with me. He said he knew that and he was working on it. He said when he starts thinking that way now he tries to meditate or find other avenues to stop that way of thinking.

A couple of hours later, he said maybe he was depressed.

BIL ...

BIL is a nice guy but I realized early on that he may be able to manage a business, but he doesn't have what it takes to make it grow. H appears to have finally realized that as well. He said he knew BIL couldn't do it. I told him that I wasn't tooting my own horn because I couldn't fill his (h's) shoes, but if I hadn't been keeping an eye on things, he wouldn't have a company right now. He said he knew that. I think this is why he is so desperate to keep me on board.

The new OW ...

I've given this a lot of thought. I've been trying to figure out why I'm not in a panic over this. I think it's because my self-esteem has reached a point that I'm very comfortable with who I am. I just don't believe this trollop can hold a candle to me. I can't imagine H saying to her some of the things he said to me this past week or opening up to her about things like depression. There is no way she could ever understand or "get" him the way I do, and based on our conversations, I believe h realizes that (somewhere in that fog), too. But more than that, I know that if H chose her over me, it would be his choice and his loss. And if he went that route, I'd be better off without him because he truly would be off his rail.

Thanks to everyone for letting me journal. I really needed to get that stuff out of my head but put it somewhere I could
return to.

Hope everyone has a good weekend.


Me: 59 and holding
H: :53
Me: 1 S, 1 D, both grown
M: 19
T: 23
BD: 9-23-2013
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2x2Many I'm just catching up with your news about the "interesting" last few days with your H, thank you for the insight into the MLC mind. I think it is such a huge step the fact that he apologised and he sees how much he hurt you.

Also I just wanted to say that I had a Bacall Cell Carcinoma near my eye which I had surgically removed two years ago. I was fortunate enough to be offered Mohs Surgery and I am confident that it was the best option as it has the best success rate. I agree that you shouldn't let your dermatologist just remove it, you should definitely have a biopsy first! I don't know if you can PM me (I'm still new) but if you can, and if you need more information on BCC please don't hesitate to do so.


"There's nothing sadder than a conman conning himself"

“There is freedom waiting for you,
On the breezes of the sky,
And you ask "What if I fall?"
Oh but my darling,
What if you fly?”

-Erin Hanson





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