A new crossroad reached

[mleigh4]

Thank you, I truly appreciate your advice and it's all good. I guess it would be pretty silly to think H would answer me with, "yes W, I dapple with drugs here and there. Sometimes when I have S in my care". I know instincts and gut feelings count, so I will keep my eyes and ears open. H has made some pretty dumb choices, but doing that while having his S would be pretty far out there for him. My instincts don't lead me to feel S is in any danger when with him.

Good news! Teacher answered saying it was unusual for S to be late like he was that day.

Thank you again for your input. It always helps to talk and think things out here. And yes, so much of their behavior is so bizarre and different from their normal state. Hawho, you live with it everyday. While H lived here, I truly believed he was on something most of the time. Even FIL, a retired cop, asked me if I suspect drugs when this first went down .... Again, eyes and ears WIDE open.

Have a good night

[mleigh4]

Hi guys! Well, I had THE TALK with H so wanted to share and journal before I forget some things.

I decided to make it happen sooner than later, so I was happy H agreed to the last minute invite. I found a sitter to take S to and H came over. I suggested a walk, but he said he was tired and asked if we could just talk there. I said ok, but outside, I figured it might help me keep calm in my happy place.

He laughed because I had the holiday calendars in my hand and he commented he didn't have any paperwork to bring. Ha ha. So I basically started off by saying I feel we are stuck, that nothing is happening or changing, and that I am hoping by talking about some things, that it may help us.

I asked him his thoughts on family time. I expressed my concerns about it. Somehow the conversation turned and I spent the next two hours hearing him vent everything I have done wrong and every way I have hurt him. At first, I will admit, I got defensive and I threw some truth darts back, but more than anything I kept saying that I have gotten past all that and just wanted to move forward. That did not sit well with him, I finally realized he really needed to express this stuff.

So I finally stopped talking and just listened. He let it all out, from S birth, to vacations, to feeling unloved and unwanted. He talked and talked until it finally just got quiet. His main point that he kept going back to was how much it upsets him when I tell him this is his choice. His point to me was that I made all the choices I did to bring him to the point where he was so unhappily married that he couldn't do it anymore.

I listened, I apologized, did the sorry you feel that way. and told him that I understand our marriage was not in a good place, and that I never want to go back to that. We both made choices and mistakes. The question is, did we learn from them? Do we see how we could do things differently and can we commit to those changes? I said, to me, marriage is all about getting through the tough times together, learning and growing from it. I also pointed out that most of the hard times he vented about were when S was younger. I reminded him that S is a temporary fixture here, he is going to grow up and leave, then we would be alone together again.

He listened and agreed. He also said he finds it hard to believe I could change and he still thinks he would be neglected over S. I told him, sorry, but your kind of being a baby over it. Things change when you have a child, but yes, there are things I wish I had done differently

So I told him, I can't speak for him, only for myself. This experience has taught me a lot about relationships and I believe I have learned ways to be a better partner. I hear him loud and clear that he felt neglected and I will do my best to be more aware to my partners needs, whether that is him or someone else. I said, I don't want to be alone anymore, I want someone in my life. I want S to see his mom loved by a man and to experience a full time family, so you can either believe nothing can change and we can go our separate ways, or you can at least give it a chance.

He threw some more stuff at me and I again said look, if you can't get past the past, then this is a lost cause and we would have our answer on what to do . I told him I have worked really hard to put the past behind me, I moved on, but I told him, you are still stuck back there! He said he wasn't hearing what he needed to hear. I asked him, what do you want from me? He said I need to know that I would matter and not be invisible again. I said I am not going to beg, and I honestly don't know if I can be the person you need, all I can say is I hear you and I have learned, I don't have a crystal ball but I know I am not the same person I was.

At one point he told me that it hurts to hear I am happier now than in years. I said that is because I am able to be me again. I didn't blame him for that, but I did tell him I felt very criticized and judged by him and his family, but more than anything, my happiness comes from a better more positive perception of things.

He expressed jealousy over bad boy friend, I assured him once again that nothing happened. we talked a little about dating and we both shared that neither of us have. He asked if I was set up with someone, another story fed to him I assume.

We touched on his parents a little, he says they miss me and wish I wouldn't shut them out. I expressed why I feel hurt by them.

It was actually a really good talk. A lot was said and shared, including that we miss each other. He said he has given up so much that he misses and he thinks about us and this situation all the time.

Soooo, We agreed to try going on some dates. HOWEVER, we are both skeptical. He worries I haven't changed and will always choose S over him. I worry that he can't let go of the past and that I will be under a microscope. We shared our concerns, but agreed it's worth a try.

When he left, he said he was glad to have talked, that it felt good for him to get so much out and that he felt it's a good start. He will take H for the day on Sunday (father's day) and we decided to see fireworks all together on the 4th. We didn't get any further on holidays, it's a wait and see thing.

So there you have it. I finally got my talk and I feel it was a good thing. It is very clear he is stuck, so we will see how that transpires. I know pushing too early is dangerous, but this talk really helped me in a few ways. First of all, I was able to get in his head a bit. Mostly, I saw inside of me. It's clear I am strong enough to walk away if this goes south. While listening to all his venting and criticising, I could see that girl he was describing. She is so 5 years ago! Then, I could see me, today, shining like a bright light. Strong, confidant and wise in new ways. I know I will be just fine, no matter what. He will either wake up and realize that, or it will be his loss.

Thanks for listening and hope you all are well. I hope to do some catch up on threads soon!

[Sotto]

Hi Mleigh, interesting talk with your H and thanks for sharing details. From what you post it does sound like he is in the frame of mind that you made him feel unloved and unwanted. I don't really see any introspection about his part in the demise of your M. Of course if he was feeling that way, there were things he could have done about that - raised this with you, told you what he needed etc - that he presumably didn't do. I don't really see that he is aware and facing that part.

He still sounds to have quite an immature and self-centred take on things and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of mature introspection.

I think until he accepts and understands his part, it may be difficult to really move forward - though a few light dates could be interesting to see how you both feel.

Xx

[job]

I agree w/Sotto. He's still not looked within and realized that he had choices and yes, he could have stepped up to the plate at any time during your marriage and said "I'm not happy, you treat me like the invisible man". He never did that. This conversation was all about him and how he felt. It doesn't sound like you were able to express all that you needed to express and yes, he's still living in the past. He's stuck just a bit. He'll have some time to digest the conversation, but until he "owns" up to his half of the demise of the marriage, it will be difficult to move forward to a new one, i.e., he's expecting you to change and what about his changes? Did he volunteer to work on himself and make changes for the better?

I think dating might shine a light on your situation a bit better. You both will be going out into the world to "neutral" grounds and then you both can decide how best to move forward...but it's going to take few dates to figure out how best to move forward.

I think you've learned a lot about him and where he's at currently...still in the past and can't seem to move forward. People do change and they need to be given the opportunity to move forward and shine, i.e., just like you've been doing. Let me leave you with this question....has he changed for the better or is he the same old h? Some people remain unchanged because they like staying in the rut and don't see or want to put forth the effort to change and be happy, i.e., they choose to remain unhappy and complain about it until the day they die, i.e., they like playing the "poor me" card over and over.

Hang in there.

[mleigh4]

As I laid in bed last night, the conversation kept sinking in more and more. First off, H feels he did speak up when he was unhappy I can remember him voicing somethings, but I was so buried in life and I was not very responsive to it. We did touch on it a bit yesterday, and I asked him point blank, what did you do to make things better?? He said, by then, he was so far gone, he didn't have it in him to try anymore, he just lived day to day being miserable. (Eyeroll).

In response to you Job and Sotto, H is still in major self pity self absorbed mode. No, he did not care about hearing my feelings during that time when we talked.

Another thing that screamed out to me is his negative perception of things. He complained about a time we were on a cruise, and S and I went to rest in the room while he wanted to hang out by the pool. This is his memory of a Caribbean cruise that I booked for us to spend time together that was full of fun memories.

He complained about how he felt I used him as a baby machine when I was trying to get pregnant. He forgets how hard it was for me, how I had to use temps and charts, and mostly, that I wanted a family for us.

My H truly only thinks of himself, he has no empathy for others, especially me, and this is how he always has been. He sees only the cup half empty and this is where we clash. EVERYTHING is about him!

No, he has not learned or grown from this experience. He is stuck in the pain and hurt he was feeling. He also continued to back up and support his parents, friends and all his own actions. As usual, there was no support and back up for his wife. That has always been an issue for me.

To answer your question Job, he is same old H. I just SMH. I continue to feel we are not compatible right now, so I will continue as I have been. These are all key points I will bring up with him the next time we talk. I know people can change, but not so sure he can.

[HaWho]

Mleigh - Like my h, I think your h also has a very unrealistic expectation of marriage w/a child and really, life itself. Geez, the two of them sound like clones of Eeyore.

Raising kids is hard work. It takes time and energy. Some couples do manage to grow closer in those years. Personally, I think they do so by understanding that there is some "couple" sacrifice that has to take place to raise kids. Certain things have to be put on a back burner for a later date.

You can see all the negatives in it, which it sounds like your h certainly does, or you can say: it wasn't always easy, but it was worth it.

I think his comment about the cruise is really immature. Maybe you should dig in your heels and mope: "I wanted to rest and you were by the pool!" It's just babyish.

As for his comment that he felt used as a baby machine, well, there too, it was a certain reality. Sometimes life doesn't go exactly to plan and you just have to do what you have to do. I am sure that all was not your top choice, either. But, he can see all the negativity or he could say: "thank goodness we were able to have a child and thank goodness he is healthy." Not everyone is so fortunate. Many people go through that exact process (or worse) for years and years and cannot conceive.

When is the last time you heard him say anything positive? And did he say one positive thing in your conversation with him?

[mleigh4]

Good question HW. I really only hear positive from him when about S and grades. Other than that he is pretty doom and gloom. He does get happy when playing with S and dog.

Yesterday he made a real point of needing to get this stuff off his chest. When I would say I dont want to rehash all that, I moved on, he said that wasnt fair for me to say I dont want to talk about it when he needed to. That was when I finally just listened

Also another major point he wanted to make was how I say he has given up on our marriage. He felt I did that during those low times. He felt I was the one who stopped trying first. .

Maybe getting this all out might help him to move out of being stuck? Maybe that was a first step like he said. It was the first I really felt I was listening and understanding his points in a long time. He would look relieved when I would recap his feelings, to make sure I understood his point.

We will see how this plays out. I hope his vent will help him to start looking within.

[LouR]

Hi mleigh

I am pleased you were able to get h to talk to you, even if you did not quite get the reaction you wanted from him. It sounds like it is still currently all about him being the victim and woe is me, he still has a way to go in his journey. You did well to keep the conversation going and the way you handled it - I would probably not have been so cool !!

My thought is to now take some time to allow both yourself and your h to process the talk you had. Also I would let him come to you to arrange a date, otherwise its you taking the lead and right now its him who needs to put is words into action.

Don't forget you in all this, its easy to get caught up and not tend to your own feelings and thoughts. Stay strong, remember your hopes, wants, needs and dreams are important and that you deserve the best that life can give. His criticisms of you are coming from his own issues which he is doing everything possible to avoid dealing with, please dont let them knock you down, they truly are his to own and not yours.

xoxo

[CaliGuy]

M

Ok ... from a guys perspective *ducks from the high heels*

When the kiddo comes there certainly is a record of us men feeling neglected, we go from the Knight in Shining Armour to the dungeon as the guy who created this baby being who is more work than any of us would have imagined ... especially for mom early on. I know I felt that way, and there is not a book they give us on how to handle the second seat, in a way we get it but I think what we miss ... least I did... was how exhausted she was at the end of the day , she never truly had the energy of me nor 'us'

However ... I do agree with the masses, he is still all about him, how wronged he was and not owning his side of the pie. I think thats the mistake I too made was she wanted to work on things only because she found herself alone, she never dealt with what put the MLC bus into motion, never addressed her issues .... I do not think your H has either. Knowing your sitch he has some serious Mommy Dearest issues, I am going to guess you focusing on your son sparked the MLC in him a bit and made him think about being neglected as a child ... just my hunch and something he needs to deal with before he can crawl out of his tunnel.

[mleigh4]

Lou - good to hear from you! Thank you for stopping by. Wonderful and sweet advice, don't worry, I haven't forgotten about me. I continue to feel focused and strong. Emotions are not leading me on my journey right now. Wisdom, reality and strength are.

Cali - exhausted is an understatement! Throw in hormones, body changes and the guilt, the tremendous guilt, of leaving a helpless child with strangers in daycare to go to work all day, it was some of the most painful and difficult times of my life. Never having had much of a support system, it was a nightmare for me. When I got home from work, I couldn't get enough time with my baby. When I snuggled with S at night to go to sleep, all was well in my world. H is absolutely correct about him being put on the back burner, I just wish he could understand why. It wasn't because of him or anything he did or didn't do. In fact, it had nothing to do with him. I was not prepared at all for the challenges that came with having a child. And you are very right, along with the masses. I see the link to his childhood loud and clear.

Our talk continues to sink in. One thing I have learned in life is the importance of perception, and that is my main focus right now. H opened up more than I have ever seen. I went into our conversation prepared to agree to separate permanently and pick holidays. Instead, H, not me, but H turned it into him missing us and wanting to see things work out, but scared it would all be the same. Not in those exact words, but I could feel the desire and fear in him for our family. I see this as a big step. It is a tremendous struggle for H to open up and express honest feelings.

Because of the amazing people here and lessons I have learned, I was able to make it a safe place for him to vent.

Now, on to the reality of the situation. H still has quite a ways to go. Until I saw him change, and saw proof that he has learned and changed as I have, there is no doubt our marriage would go right back to the place it was. I am fully aware of that and figure that could take months or years. In fact, I don't see anything really changing much anytime soon, which is ok with me.

I have been so closed off with H, but after talking, I feel it's time to soften a bit. I feel friendship is key right now. All in all, I feel a little more clarity of how much this time has been a gift and continues to be. I am still very unsure of the outcome, I continue to not see myself happy with H, nor do I see myself able to meet his expectations. But I do see myself moving along as I have been and am willing to see how H evolves on his own journey. I feel we are finally on the right path towards some answers.

In the meantime, life moves on. Meditation has become a huge necessity for me and part of my nighttime routine. Peace is inside all of us, please take the time to connect with it. Time with friends is priceless. My S is stuck in summer camp, which he hates, but because I work so close to him with amazing co-workers, I am able to pick him up and bring him to my office for the last few hours each day. THAT is HUGE for us. So, life is good.

Big hugs to you all.