OFP, thanks for your update. I totally get what you're saying about convincing yourself you are better off whithout her. There are so many mixed feelings, good and bad memories. (I'm right behind you at about 5 months since BD.)
Take your time to grieve, but don't forget to look forward to your future. Even if it's baby steps.
Glad to hear you've already learned some things about yourself since she left. Ok to share what they are and how you are working on them?
Me37 W33 T:8 M:5 D3 BD 11/2015 EA+PA w boss 12/2015 S 3/2016
Im stronger because I had to be Im smarter because of my mistakes happier because of the sadness Ive known and now wiser because I learned
OFP, thanks for your update. I totally get what you're saying about convincing yourself you are better off without her. There are so many mixed feelings, good and bad memories. (I'm right behind you at about 5 months since BD.)
The good news, I believe I am less miserable now than a month ago. Month 5 I started to turn the focus off wanting to get her back, and it was a monumental change in my outlook. Mostly I needed to stop romanticizing everything. But it was something I had to approach very carefully. I had to find enough stuff about her that I didn't like to detach, and try to not focus on the positives I loved about the life, but if I thought of too much negative I got angry, so I rode that fence very carefully.
Originally Posted By: 1gr8dad
Take your time to grieve, but don't forget to look forward to your future. Even if it's baby steps.
I have taken more than my fair share of grieving time.... I'm kind of an emotional guy (regardless of what the W thought!).
Everyone thinks you have a certain amount of time that you need to "get over it". I explain to them that everyone is different, everyone goes through their own process, everyone deals with it in their own way. And then throw a number out there from what I have read, "people need 2 years to get over D" for example. It didn't help me to read that, but it helps them to understand how long this process really is.
Talk to people.... LOTS of people. And choose who you discuss certain things with. I quickly found that my mother was the WORST person to talk to. One sibling was good for dreaming up negatives, another sibling was good at calming and leveling me out, though not able to stop telling me what I "need" to do. People who are close and you NEED them, have them google "how to support someone who is going through a D." If they haven't gone through a D, they don't understand. It will instantly change their approach toward you.
People who have been through a D are almost always FULL of perspective and willing to share their story. Like I said, I have talked to 17 different people about their experience. The ones at the same stage aren't always helpful, as they are still trying to find their way out, but still good for you and them to bounce things off each other, share in your misery, provide someone just to talk to and they don't mind rehashing the same subject over and over.
Originally Posted By: 1gr8dad
Glad to hear you've already learned some things about yourself since she left. Ok to share what they are and how you are working on them?
I know I am not exactly answering your question here... but the biggest thing I needed to stop, was blaming myself. At first I thought for sure I drove W away. I knew something wasn't right with W, and made excuses for W every day... but I kept thinking "if only I had done this different, or that different... maybe she wouldn't have left?" It helped nothing, it didn't bring her back, it didn't make me feel better. The more I thought about it, the more input I got from others, everyone else was able to see that "I" did not cause this. As Zephyr said above, no matter what I had done it would never have been enough. WOW does that take away the self-destructive thoughts. Prior to that I felt like I am a worthless human and need to fix everything about myself, and become a totally different person to be lovable.
Once I fully accepted that the things I said/did in the R were patterns developed by dealing with a specific person (W), I could more easily see how the patterns were not healthy. It's not about being wrong, it's about avoiding patterns. But if I try to share anything at this point, I think it will be rambling non-sense. And without have a R to test the theories, I don't have a clue if I have learned/changed or not. Maybe in the next R, they will be a happy healthy person and I won't have those patterns ever develop?
Wow, thanks for the reply. You are clearing a very insightful fellow and have done a lot of work. Thank-you so much for sharing, it has given me food for thought.
Me37 W33 T:8 M:5 D3 BD 11/2015 EA+PA w boss 12/2015 S 3/2016
Im stronger because I had to be Im smarter because of my mistakes happier because of the sadness Ive known and now wiser because I learned
I have a couple of comments, I hope you will consider them...I don't need an answer, I would like you to at least think about them.
Originally Posted By: OFP
I know I am not exactly answering your question here... but the biggest thing I needed to stop, was blaming myself. At first I thought for sure I drove W away. I knew something wasn't right with W, and made excuses for W every day... but I kept thinking "if only I had done this different, or that different... maybe she wouldn't have left?" It helped nothing, it didn't bring her back, it didn't make me feel better. The more I thought about it, the more input I got from others, everyone else was able to see that "I" did not cause this. As Zephyr said above, no matter what I had done it would never have been enough. WOW does that take away the self-destructive thoughts. Prior to that I felt like I am a worthless human and need to fix everything about myself, and become a totally different person to be lovable.?
OFP, I hope you understood my context. Your wife has her issues. Yes. IMHO, there is little you could have done to help her with her past, really all you would have been doing is further enabling her from facing her past. You didn't have the tools for that. it doesn't mean you can't learn these tools.
THAT does no alleviate you from facing your part in the struggles and the failing of the marriage. You were not a perfect husband...although I know you thought you gave all you could. Just reading some of your comments, there is much to learn about compassion, loving someone despite themselves, and true understanding. There were behaviors that you can look at and correct. Even if you and your wife never get back together...you have the need to learn better communication skills, learn about resentment and how to avoid it, learn about gratitude, true forgiveness, self-love, fostering your partners freedom to choose and to live their own life, giving without expectations and absolute appreciation (there are plenty of other topics, so I hope you get my point).
Originally Posted By: OFP
And like I posted in bluwave's thread, do I want her to come crawling back only for revenge reasons? So she can become the LBS and feel the pain she caused me? To keep the kids from her for a while so she can see what it is like? Have her come back and be a slave while I go out and GAL for a while?
I am not sure the thought behind this passage. I will say one thing though, I hope you can consider where those thought are coming from. Punishment Should not be a goal in any kind of relationship. It will not help you move on or to become the best man you want to be. I have read countless postings from folks (not just on this board) where one or the other utilized some form of revenge to alleviate pain or hurt...it will not help. If you ever loved this woman as you say, how could you say that is what you truly want to do...to punish her, to hurt her as you've been hurt.
Maybe I am being too judgmental, or read into the paragraph differently than you intended...IDK, maybe I don't truly know your pain, so forgive me if I am off base and misunderstood. I realize you are an I had thought that making yourself whole is what you are striving for, so learning how to forgive in the face of hurt, and letting go of that resentment is a damned good place to start.
I have a couple of comments, I hope you will consider them...I don't need an answer, I would like you to at least think about them.
OFP, I hope you understood my context. Your wife has her issues. Yes. IMHO, there is little you could have done to help her with her past, really all you would have been doing is further enabling her from facing her past. You didn't have the tools for that. it doesn't mean you can't learn these tools.
THAT does no alleviate you from facing your part in the struggles and the failing of the marriage. You were not a perfect husband...although I know you thought you gave all you could. Just reading some of your comments, there is much to learn about compassion, loving someone despite themselves, and true understanding. There were behaviors that you can look at and correct. Even if you and your wife never get back together...you have the need to learn better communication skills, learn about resentment and how to avoid it, learn about gratitude, true forgiveness, self-love, fostering your partners freedom to choose and to live their own life, giving without expectations and absolute appreciation (there are plenty of other topics, so I hope you get my point).
Your point is valid, I have no fear of being challenged, in fact I appreciate it. My post was biased in a specific direction. I went through 4 months of hell trying to find my issues, even my IC was discouraging me from these self-defeating thoughts. I researched what could have effected her perspective, be it depression, MLC, etc. (which lead here of course). At times the self-reflection on top of the grieving process is overwhelming.
I guarantee you I was not a perfect husband. I know I did not possess the proper tools. But I also know I gave it everything I had, and I honestly believe that I treated my W well. I also didn't understand her unhappiness or how I could have dealt with it any differently. I honestly had no perception of what depression could be like... Until now! I now have an appreciation of it.
As she was on the way out, which granted was a bit late, we were discussing this, and I told her we had a loop in our communication that prevented healthy communication, and that we should get a MC involved to help us with it. She wasn't interested, yet again, because she was afraid I would manipulate the counselor into taking my side. I told her if that happened we could find a different counselor. I later learned this is part of the victim mentality, her fear of someone else appointing any blame to her would validate it, and she couldn't have that. She also said she refused to discuss her past, and the MC would probably want to. 2 days later, I was researching for a MC anyway, I wanted to find the issue. I never denied an issue that she pointed out that concerned her. I made steps at the time to try to change my approach. I cared about her and how she felt, though Indidnt always agree with it.
Ironically, the same day I was looking for a MC, she was filling out the OFP!!
Originally Posted By: zephyr
I am not sure the thought behind this passage. I will say one thing though, I hope you can consider where those thought are coming from. Punishment Should not be a goal in any kind of relationship. It will not help you move on or to become the best man you want to be. I have read countless postings from folks (not just on this board) where one or the other utilized some form of revenge to alleviate pain or hurt...it will not help. If you ever loved this woman as you say, how could you say that is what you truly want to do...to punish her, to hurt her as you've been hurt.
Valid point again... my first sentence was a question, because that is the question I ask myself. Depending on my mood/stage, I want her back because I miss her, or I want our family back together, or frustrated at the pain she has caused me and my children for what appears to be selfish motives. She's out having the time of her life while the kids and I suffer.
[/quote=zephyr]Maybe I am being too judgmental, or read into the paragraph differently than you intended...IDK, maybe I don't truly know your pain, so forgive me if I am off base and misunderstood. I realize you are an I had thought that making yourself whole is what you are striving for, so learning how to forgive in the face of hurt, and letting go of that resentment is a damned good place to start. [/quote]
Another good point, and something I haven't stated for you to know otherwise. I spent a serious amount of time on self-blame, and a lot of time researching what may have caused this in the first place... Which lead to a lot of feeling of forgiveness. I honestly am not upset she filed the OFP. I do not admit to deserving it, I do admit that it was her perspective. I do feel her perspective was not reflective of reality, or underlying issues from her past biased her perspective.
I totally understand that anger and resentment is not healthy. And for the most part I have steered clear of it.
Not having resentment about an A... Not sure I'll ever get there. That is my boundary. If she did/is, says nothing about who I am, it says a lot about who she is, and if that is the decision she made, I no longer have an interest in her as a person, regardless of the darkness in her life or what may have caused it or any other excuses may come up.
I had posted this in another thread, figured I should put it here also...
Originally Posted By: 2Times2Many
For the past few years H has gravitated toward people who are "beneath" him in education or success and usually people who have a problem with alcohol.
I have noticed this with my W also, but all through her life. This is the type of friends she had before we met. She would meet better people, but never get close to them. She would meet these "lower" people and try to become good friends with them. None of the friendships either way lasted, not sure if she realized their ways (many ended up with sticky fingers!), or if I played a part in it by telling my W she is better than that. Her becoming friends with these lower people always seemed to go hand in hand with a low in our M, not sure which caused the other. I am guessing the friends made W miss her previous life and that caused a low in the R.
W's recent new group of friends are similar, she starting hanging out with them in the last year prior to BD, only occasionally, but wanted me to go along. I did occasionally, but didn't care for it. The time with them increased right before BD, and now she practically lives with them. They are borderline alcoholics, a few are into drugs, some of the worst parents I have seen, they have OK jobs but run down messy houses and beater vehicles. Not sure what they spend their money on, other than alcohol.
Originally Posted By: job
They do tend to gravitate toward people who are lower in status because they want to be perceived as better than those around them.
This is similar to what I suspected long ago. And I know I told my W that she is better than them, and questioned why she chose friends like that. W was also an enabler, she liked to help others. I would point out that these people made choices to not help themselves.
Note, I may or may not be dealing with a MLCer, it may be just severe depression.
My IC suggested that my W chooses these friends because they are the same "mental age" as herself. "IF" she grows (comes out of it), she will outgrow the friends. I doubt that will happen, ever. Her mother is similar in mental age (13 yr old?), she never did grow. I always was so thankful my W was smarter than her mother.... but now wonder if "love is blind" just made me think that she was smarter.
We (me, W, S11, D9) went with this group for an activity last year, they were all drinking the whole time, made me fear the safety of S and D. This year the 3 of them were just involved in this same activity with this same group. I asked my kids if they saw any alcohol this time, they said they watched carefully and no one was drinking. My W is forcing them to grow up? Or paranoid that I will say/do something if I find out about the alcohol? I can't say on here what the activity is, worried it will lead W here.
Job had asked in the other thread if W is showing signs of confusion...
In my first post on this thread, which was super long and probably a bit intimidating, I listed some of the things she said that showed confusion. Right before BD she was saying she needed time and space, saying she needed to find herself, and that she didn't know what kind of music she liked. After BD saying similar messages, she is seeing a counselor to find herself, not knowing what the future holds.
She told me months before BD that I fit the traits of a nars-assist (intentionally spelled wrong), even though I do not fit the desc., in fact I am the opposite of many of the traits. S11 told me she is describing my traits that supposedly fit that, to him lately. S11 said W said lately that I never made W happy in the M. Definitely rewriting M history!
W is leader of S11's groups (can't say what, again)... I have heard she no longer is putting in the effort, and is even showing up late, leaving the other kids confused what to do.
In the year prior to BD, she had her mother over often to "help" with house work, though W spent her fair share of time on the couch. Now her mother is always there, or she is at her mother's. No strength to function on her own, even though she says that is one of her goals.
I'm not sure about her confusion, but I know I am confused!!
OFP, She's having some type of identity crisis and yes, she's a very confused puppy if she can't decide what kind of music, etc., she likes. Also, the statements of needing time and space and needing to find herself could be good indicators that she's met someone or has someone waiting in the wings for her. I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but we hear this quite often and my xh stated the same things.
Don't you love has they tell us what's wrong w/us and you have to wonder if they are projecting on to us what they are actually thinking about themselves.
As for being a leader for S11's groups, she's lost interest in them because they require work and interactions w/others. She's not capable of doing those things right now. Her mind is shot and her memory is that of a gnat.
As for her mother, maybe your w has gone back in time and is looking to play a young daughter to her mother, i.e., reenacting that time period from her past. We see that quite often whereby reenactments take place w/the parent(s) that may have stunted their emotional growth as youngsters.
I can understand your confusion, but you can't help her. She has to figure things out for herself. You didn't break her, therefore, you can't fix her. Try to keep the focus on you and your children and your finances. I know it's difficult, but she really does need to find herself and grow up.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I thought from the day I saw the horrible stuff in the OFP, that she projected on me everything that has happened in her past... things in the OFP seem to be things that her father or others did to her, NOT things I did to her. Or at a minimum, like said previously, caused her to be super sensitive about them. Or a combination of, I triggered a feeling that brought back a memory of something traumatic from her past?
2 days before BD, she listed complaints to me direct, but they were NOT the same things that were in the OFP. Was it because our conversation in person, I was there to point out the truth so she avoided those subjects? Or the "group" that helped her with the OFP gave her "ideas" that directly connected the triggers to her past?
In the last year when her mother started helping all the time, I assumed it was because her mother was making up for abandoning her when she was 14. Reading into what Job said, maybe W was "asking" for the help "because" she was abandoned. Or her mother making it up, brought her back to that time before her mother abandoned her?
S11,'s group, the person above W in the hierarchy, is a friend of mine from high school. I am sure that causes W discomfort also. W absolutely refuses to even talk to this friend.
