W’s mother filed an OFP against W’s father when W was 13, and filed for D at the same time. W’s father was quite mentally abusive, I heard many stories, and I had witnessed it, I actually found myself defending W against her own father in one of his fits of rage about W’s mother’s selfishness and how he as served an OFP at work and couldn’t ever go home again. Her parents continued to blame each other and bad mouth each other, even 30 years after the divorce. W lived with her mother, and visited her father very seldomly.
Her father remarried. Her mother hooked up with a truck driver shortly after, and went out on the road with him, leaving W on her own at 13 or 14, with her 18 year old brother. Even when her mother was home, she would act as a friend, allowing her to have boyfriends stay in the house, and stay out all night. When W was 15 she was dating a 20 year old, this was her first sexual experience. It lasted until he was convicted of forcibly raping a 13 year old (not my W). He was convicted of a few more offenses over the years, and is still in prison now, 25 years later. I can’t imagine how he may have treated her.
Before we met, she was somewhat wild, staying out late, going to parties a lot though she didn’t drink, and fairly promiscuous. “Something like 15” is what she told me about the number of people she had been with.
We spent only a few days together here and there, during which time W told me about all the ugly things in her past, that she suffered from depression, to the point of cutting herself, and some details about her wild life. I felt bad for her, as she seemed like a nice person. I thought I could help, I could provide a better life for her, and she would appreciate it. (I was definitely the codependent enabler)
I moved away to college, but couldn’t stand being in the dorms. I asked her to marry me, we quickly moved in together and got married a few days later. The following summer we had an actual ceremony, and that was the anniversary that we celebrated.
She had a dog and a horse she tried to keep back home after we moved away, but it just wasn’t working out. She sold the horse to one of my relatives, and gave the dog away. Still resents me for that apparently.
We fought like cats and dogs at first. She was super defensive about anything that questioned her intents. In hindsight, I believe that over the years she became somewhat submissive, she couldn’t figure out how to stand up for herself without being defensive.
Her father died 8 years ago, about a year after our second child was born. She voiced regret about him not being able to get to know his grandchildren, and for not spending more time with him herself.
She has been on antidepressants since before we met. She has never gone to counseling long enough to be effective. She would go a couple times, and then quit because they wanted to talk about her past and she didn’t.
I had told W when we met I did not want to have children. I spent a lot of time with my nieces, and W would always say “I see how you interact with your nieces, I think you would be a good father.” I told her I was just not ready to have children. This worked for about 10 years, but then she said “if you don’t agree to have children with me, I will find someone who will.” About this same time, she was also badgering me about buying a house, she didn’t like that we were renting and the place didn’t feel like our own home. She found a house, and we bought it. Once settled in, I felt ready to have children, and we started trying.
She smoked through both PG’ss, and blamed me for her not being able to quit, as I should have also quit at the same time to be supportive. She also did not breastfeed either child, did not try it even once. She took a short maternity leave for both and went back to working full time.
My daughter started showing signs of depression a few years ago. And my son was diagnosed with dyslexia. I “may” have mentioned to her that smoking during PG probably didn’t help.
About 6 years ago, my wife missed taking her pill a couple of times, but didn’t tell me, until after she found out she was PG. We discussed it, and decided together on an abortion. This was a ridiculously difficult decision for both of us, but we had a perfect family (a son for me, a daughter for her) and wanted to keep it that way. I went with her to the appointments, and supported her every step of the way.
All through our marriage she was extremely jealous. I am sure it was a combination of her lack of self esteem, and the fact that numerous boyfriends she had, cheated on her. One, I believe the rapist, she caught him in bed with another girl, in W’s bed! I have never done anything, I don’t even flirt with other girls, but if I even have a conversation with another female, she would accuse me of cheating on her. There were times when she would accuse me out of the blue. Early in our marriage she had a friend write a note and leave it on my car as a “secret admirer.” I brought it straight to my wife, as I figured that is where it came from, and I was correct.
During college, 1 or 2 of my classmates would come to our apartment to do homework. On their way out, they would say they are going to the bar, and would ask if I would like to go with. I had no interest, and told them that. Once they left, she would get all upset at me, “you want to go don’t you.” I assured her I had no interest. She would then say “the only reason guys go to the bar is to pick up women.” I told her, that’s nice, but I honestly don’t have any interest in going to the bar,
After we were married for about 3 years, she suddenly started going…. To the bar! Every night. Wouldn’t tell me what she was going, wasn’t hardly talking to me, a complete change in personality. We’d go back to our hometowns on the weekend, I’d stay at her mom, she’d go out with friends. She had told me about a guy and girl that broke up, and she was talking to the guy a little. One night she was going to be at a friends house. I went looking for her, her car was there, but she was not, she was the bar, talking to this guy. We had a long talk, and she immediately went back to being a caring loving wife. Early crisis?
Everything was fine for the next 18 years.
When the kids were young they were going to grandparents for daycare. I mentioned to my wife that I thought they needed more social interaction. She got them involved in more things, and did good at it. But in the last year she had activities for them 5 days a week. I told her I thought it was getting excessive, as we would do a lot of things as a family previously and it was getting to the point they were to busy that wasn’t time for me to do anything with them. Apparently that was “controlling” also.
I spend 50 hours a week at work, but in 2014 I was working over 60 hours a week. She told my family that she didn’t care about the money, she just wanted me home with her. She told them other things too, that if I didn’t change, she was going to leave me. I had no idea what that was about, as she wasn’t saying these things to me.
She turned 40 last spring. Last summer work slowed down and we did a bunch of fun stuff together. We spent 3 days together for our 20 year anniversary, and did 2 trips at a week long each the 4 of us. Bills were starting to get behind, and I didn’t find out until later in the summer. When I asked she said we didn’t have the money to pay it, but that wasn’t the case. She then said I could take over it was feeling like too much. During the summer she started telling my children that I am mean to all 3 of them. It was disturbing, but when I asked her after overhearing it, she denied it. It turned into the children asking if I was going to be home when they got home, if she said yes, they would be disappointed. Luckily, so far, there have been no signs of her doing that since, and I have asked the kids repeatedly…. Though W’s mother apparently started telling the kids that instead!
She worked part time during the school year, but only 2 days a week during the summer. Even 2 days was too much, she’d bring the kids to her mom’s, go back home, and sleep on the couch, apparently the depression was getting worse, I thought she was just getting lazy. She was getting almost nothing done, unless it was something she wanted to do.
She has numerous health issues, but in the last year seemed almost like a hypochondriac. She lost 20-30 pounds in the months leading up to BD with no change in activity or diet.
Early October she told me she was upset about the abortion, that she was concerned about her antidepressants being off, and that she was wondering if she is starting menopause. She also told me about this guy whose wife had just left him, and how heartbroken he was (OM?)
Near the end of October we started arguing. It started with a text message that she thought was suspicious between me and 2 coworkers, one of which is female. I swore to her there was nothing going on, as there was not. The argument lasted almost a week, she continued to bring up small items that she was upset about.
Saturday night, she tells me she is going to a party at friend’s of ours house, but doesn’t tell me until 9:00, after the kids are in bed. I told her the timing wasn’t good, with all the arguing we had been doing. And that I would have liked to go with. She said “you wouldn’t want to go anyway.” She said “I’m going whether you like it or not.” I asked her to be home at a reasonable hour so we could do something together the next day as a family. She said “No.” I said I didn’t want her to be tired the next day, she said “I’ll be fine.”
This newly single guy lives 2 doors down from the party she went to. At 3:30 in the morning she still wasn’t home, I got paranoid. I texted her asking if she was sure she would be fine driving home. 4:00, tried again. Tried calling. No answer. I checked where her phone was, it was in the right place. I tried the friend whose house she was at, no answer. So, I got in my vehicle and went looking for her.
I got to the house with the party at 4:30, friend “a” happened to be right inside the door. I told her that I needed to find W. At friend “a” said she didn't know, there was a slight pause, and then she said she thinks she is in the garage. I went to the garage, asked where she was, there was an extremely long pause from the people in there, and one of the friends out there finally said "I think she's in the house"
I went back to the house, friend “a” still didn’t know where she was.
Side note, “potential OM” was not there, and usually is, but his handicapped son was.
I went out to the van to see if she was sitting in there, there was her phone sitting on the seat. She never leaves her phone behind, but I assumed she did this time so that if I tried to check where she was, it would look like she was still at the party. That's also why she didn't get the texts and phone call? She said later she saw the texts, then went for a walk to sober up before heading home.
My wife came around the corner a few minutes later, from the direction OM’s. She was walking really slow, hanging her head. Not upset, but in shame.
She was very apprehensive about going home.
When we got home, I told her I had enough, and I left. I wasn’t gone very long, and decided to go back and try to work it out. I told her I wanted to go to MC, to try to figure out what is wrong with our communication. She said she was afraid the MC would want to talk about her past, and she thought I would manipulate the MC into taking my side. I told her the MC will likely point out things we have both done wrong, if they point out something I did wrong is fine, but it they point out something she did it not? She replied only that “I know I’m not perfect, but I am a good person.” In the same conversation she said “I don’t know how to say no to you.”
She continued to say she wanted some time to figure things out (without me), to see if we are better off separate, that she needed to “find herself”, that she didn’t know what kind of music she like (that one confused me). I told her I didn’t see what time was going to gain us. She continued to vent about a few other things she was upset about, some of which were years prior, none of which were legitimate reasons to leave.
Tuesday she disappeared with the kids. A few days later I was served with an OFP (Order For Protection). The OFP was a mix of things that I actually did (being somewhat controlling), and things that she thought I was doing (perceived other things to be controlling), and a few flat out lies. No physical abuse, ever, and she did not claim that I have.
We agreed out of court. I offered that she could have the house, I would move out, and I would agree to not contact her, didn’t find out until in court that it would be a year, wishing now I hadn’t agreed to that! Visitation with the kids was also established. Between attorney’s during this negotiation, I heard that she wanted to reconcile.
Over the next 2 months, she’d say things to my mom like “anyone who took that much from the garage has no interested in reconciling.” I took tools, left everything else behind, didn’t take a single thing for my kids to do when with me, and I left her a list of a huge number of things I did to get the house ready for winter so she wouldn’t have to. Here’s an exact text from her: “At this point I have a lot of emotions that I am dealing with and seeing s counselor I hope will help me to deal with them. I want time to heal myself. I feel that if I am not able to heal then how can we ever have a relationship together. I hope that he is seeing s counselor also to deal with his own emotions. I don't know what the future holds at this point. The counselor is helping me find myself again.” She told my mom I never complimented her cooking, unless I made it exactly the way I like it. That is completely the opposite, I told her all the time she was an incredible cook. She told S11 that she is happier now, he told me she clearly is not She told S11 I would be happier without her. She told S11 I never made her happy (poor kids having to hear all this crap)
2 months went by, a letter through atty’s asked for an update on reconciling, and I received no response. I was concerned about OM, though she denied it. I filled out divorce paperwork and had it sent to her. When she received it, she called my mom, all upset because she thought I wanted to reconcile. (another side note, she spent the next 2 nights in a hotel with friends and their kids, and she was sharing a room with OM… I only know because D9 told me). So, I had another letter sent through atty’s, saying we could go to marriage counseling together, or proceed with the divorce. She answered to proceed with the divorce. But then her atty said he believes she is thinking otherwise. So I offered again, said I am not going to file the divorce paperwork and make any more rash decisions. This time she agreed. I also offered she could see my IC with any questions or concerns she had. She did, but told my IC that she was concerned that I was so controlling, and would never change. And that she didn’t think I ever loved her. W told my IC she is not seeing anyone else, doesn’t want to, she is enjoying her freedom, but she seemed to not be interested in MC, she was concerned I would try to talk her into taking me back even if she didn’t want to, and at this point would rather have no contact with me. By this time 3 months total have gone by since BD.
I am attending a men’s group, formerly known as anger management. It was a recommendation in the OFP, not a requirement, but I signed up as soon as possible and have been trying to learn everything I can, putting my heart and soul into making myself better, for her. W to my mom I am only attending because it is required, my mom explained to her that isn’t true.
My mom kept bringing up things to her about me, trying to convince her to go to MC, and she never got upset at my mom, she just told her things that I did wrong, or didn’t say anything at all when my mom would make positive comments about our marriage.
So, I wrote a letter of repentance, taking blame, saying how hard it must have been for her to live with me, how I came to the realization of what hurt her, etc. all from the heart. I stated that I would not pressure her into anything, and every decision moving forward is hers. This letter is a violation of the OFP, but I took a chance. A week later my mom asked what she thought of the letter, she said I just relisted all the things she had always told me, no comment on the realization part. I sent an email on our joint account to myself (where she read it) talking about what it could be like if we tried again, taking it slow, NOT moving in together for a long time, and a really long list of fond memories. It was marked as read shortly after I sent it. The next day she forwarded it to her atty. Her atty sent a letter to my atty, stating it is a violation of the OFP, and asked that I stop.
With the OFP in place, there isn’t a whole lot I can do. I can improve myself all day long, but there’s no way she’d even know, she is being very adamant to completely avoid even seeing me, my parent’s are stuck in the middle for all communication about the children, and for the hand-off of them. She blocked me and my family from her facebook, but I hear it is full of things about how she has been wronged, is suffering, she is too forgiving, etc.
I am trying to not be selfish, but it is really hard living with my parent’s, having no access to the kids toys when I have them. Per the OFP all our income is going into the joint account, paying for the house she is living in, and the payments on our 2 vehicles, leaving nothing extra to buy new toys for the kids, nothing to even rent a place of my own. So after 4 months I gave up, and I filed the D paperwork so I can start rebuilding my life.
I do NOT talk to the common friends anymore.
We went to mediation… the monster came out there!!!
We did everything together, we were each other’s best friend, the only thing we did separate was going to work. We had a seriously codependent relationship. W was “unemotional” from everything I saw. She never cried. She did get mad occasionally. She rarely smiled, I assumed partially due to her depression, and I did not try to interfere as she didn’t ask for help. She would tell me all the time that she wanted to spend time with me. SL was frequent, adventurous and incredible right up to a week before it came crashing down.
She works part time, somewhat of a meaningless and thankless job.
Since BD: She went to the town where we lived during college, and was planning to get a tattoo, but apparently backed out. Change in hairstyle Rock concert with these friends Wears makeup when going with the kids to the common friends house She is at her mom’s with the kids 2 days a week, at the house with her mom 2 days a week, and I have no clue where she is when I have the kids. So much for independence? She’s doing OK parenting, but just about zero information passed to me about the kids. She is definitely acting like she has all the power, she gets to decide everything about their schedule, etc.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I understand I need to detach, GAL for sure though as an introvert with no home that has been a serious struggle... Living with my parents is driving me insane. There is absolutely no money left over each month after paying for the house she is in, where all the kids toys are, etc. that is the primary reason I filed for divorce in the first place, to get my life back.
Did I make a mistake filing? Do I stop it? If I do I may never see a house or a dime again.
Hi OFP, I'm so sorry to hear your sitch, it breaks my heart. It sounds like a lot has been let loose on your kids, your parents and yourself. There are aspects of your story that are similar to mine and I know from having a W who suffers from depression what a huge burden that can be. I know what it feels like at first being forced to chop up the family unit that once was. I know what it's like hearing things from our kids we wished we didn't.
However, here's the good news I see if you can try to see it through all the fog of pain:
1) The OFP (even though it was unfairly filed against you) may be a blessing in disguise because you are now forced to detach. I am often set back because I have to see my WW. Perhaps in a month from now you will see what I mean: out of sight out of mind.
2) You will soon feel a sense of relief that you are no longer responsible to emotionally support a depressed person right now and will take comfort at least that she is seeking professional help. In time maybe that will help her see clearly. But there's nothing u can or should do now. You can't. You are no longer responsible. There is no rope to hold onto anymore. Howeverm YOU ARE responsible for yourself and for the dad your kids see.
3) Your time with the kids. They don't need toys, they need you. Now separated I get more time with my D3 than ever before and it's priceless!
4) Your parents - they are a blessing. Don't forget to always tell them that. Sometimes we can be caught up in our own pain to forget to give love where it's due.
5) Yourself, you are my personal hero to have supported this women for so long despite all the fun things that come with depression. How you fought for the marriage, tried to save it with MC. How you've opted to take the group course to develop yourself. So impressive given the freshness of your sitch.
I know you may not feel it now, but you can pat yourself on the back for your progress so far. You can keep doing more. Read the homework given by Cadet, it will still help given your situation and is agnostic of MLC/WW/WAS.
KEEP POSTING, it's a form of journalling and seeking support. (People who suffer from PTSD found journalling expedited their healing process) LBHs have all gone though a trauma, there's no doubt. Read other people's treads/stories and post there if you can even if its to say hi. It helps being part of this community.
Me37 W33 T:8 M:5 D3 BD 11/2015 EA+PA w boss 12/2015 S 3/2016
Im stronger because I had to be Im smarter because of my mistakes happier because of the sadness Ive known and now wiser because I learned
Thanks for the support... it's amazing how someone from the outside can look at my sob story and find the positive in it. Thank you for that!!
The Men's group was a recommendation before the OFP was finalized, I found out a week after bomb drop, and immediately signed up... I wanted to do everything I could to fix this. The frustration is the W didn't seem to care. What W thinks is obviously not supposed to be my focus, but it still is.
My mother is the most loving person I know, but her tools are barbaric. She gives advice, gets mad at me when she sees me suffering, interferes and overrides me when I am dealing with my children, and other very destructive behavior. I see where I learned some of the things I did wrong in my M, but to no where near the extent she does it. So I feel down about having done some things wrong, and still feel a little better about having been better in my life than what I learned.
I struggled a lot right after BD having my kids, it was a reminder of what used to be, what I used to have. It also left her free to do who knows what. I had a hell of a time giving up that knowledge (some may call it control, I call it caring). It drove me into paranoia, no doubt about it. But I notice my connection with the kids is growing like you wouldn't believe. I asked my kids if they enjoy spending time with me, even though it is not at home, even though they don't have the toys they are used to, even though their dad is kind of an emotional mess. They said "yes, you spend a lot more time with us than mom does." I talk to them, I make them feel safe sharing their feelings, and then I do things directly with them. Still frustrating that I can't go back and forth between them like we used to do in the M.
Also ironic you mentioned PTSD... I was telling my kids about it just a week ago, and realized the symptom are similar to how I was feeling. Having an OFP full of horrible accusations filed against me, when I put every effort imaginable to providing a good life for my family, having her leave me, having the children kept from me with the OFP, was seriously traumatic. Almost 6 months later I still can't sleep without meds, still get stressed extremely easy, can't focus on personal conversations unless they are about W. I used to be the calmest person, people could directly insult me and it wouldn't phase me.
I offered MC before BD. I offered again repeatedly since. I offered at mediation. I may have offered so many times hat it pushed her further away.
The kids are going to the same IC as her. I went to her IC and asked a bunch of questions about the kids. When I asked about discussing W, he didn't want to know anything, didn't want to tell me anything (which I can KINDA understand), couldn't even tell me what to do for direction for my life. I left with a bad feeling about him, and never went back. They continue to go to him, but I haven't followed up for many months.
Instead I started talking to the school counselor. I got it set up that they meet with my kids every morning. The W then took that over also, she goes with them most mornings, so now I can't go. But I still get an update via email from the school counselors.
W told my IC that her IC said that "anyone who is so controlling isn't likely to change". He wouldn't talk to me, how would he know if I was really controlling or not? How would he know if I was really going to change or not?
I have been very active in other forums, was even a moderator on one for a while. I have read some stories on here, but they feed my paranoia, all these people talking about cheating, and I don't honestly know if my W is. I'd like to believe she is not.
Very true about life dealing with her depression. My IC explained it as we had a father-daughter relationship. That she has the mental maturity of a 7 year old.
A few weeks ago I was putting every effort into detaching, picking through things trying to find the negatives, in an effort to give up. It was working. Then my IC tells me, that after meeting with W, my IC thinks W will grow, learn that I was not to blame for her problems, she'll own them as her own, and become a much better person. And that I should not close the door completely, or I'll miss out on an incredible opportunity. That the kids will continue to draw us together. I can't believe how far this set me back. A few days later a friend tells me the same thing. Which lead me here....
Another question.. do I try to find out if she is having an A?
In a way I don't want to know. But in a way I feel it is the one piece of information that I don't have that I need to decide whether I am actually willing to wait. If she is, I don't want her back, ever, seriously.
Does it change my approach to anything?
I'm not looking for anyone's opinion about whether she is or not, I am wondering only if I should put effort into finding out?
I think, in her mind, her reasons for leaving are legitimate. But she twisted every conversation we ever had from day one, I told her that straight out for most of our marriage, and had to re-explain everything I said.... It was quite fatiguing! I believe her depression always had her looking for those negative things. For this reason I am guessing she is a WAW or MLC rather than WW.
I think you should find out if there is another man. It'll change your whole view of how to approach this.
Me-LBH, 48 Spouse-WW, 48 Married for 19 years Son, 12 BD #1 - November 1998 (EA 7 months after wedding) BD #2 - November 2015 (same XBF EA) WW filed D February 2016 WW moved out April 2016
