Why is Raven black?

[ciluzen]

So, time for a new thread.

Here's the old one:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2657404#Post2657404

One of my favorite stories is the Native American tale of how Raven stole the sun and brought light to the people of the world. Before, they lived in darkness, feeling their way around and living off of what ever they came across. They were always cold and unhappy; unenlightened, if you will. So, when Raven stole the fiery sun for his own trickster reasons and dropped it in the sky when it got too hot to hold onto, he unintentionally helped the people to live a better life. Not because he was trying to be helpful or self sacrificing. No altruism here.
Raven used to be white, but by carrying the sun in his beak, he was burned black. His children and grandchildren were forever marked by his deed, as every future raven would become black, as well.

So many lessons in one little story.

I write my gratitudes and journal daily, now. Today I have written, I'm thankful for my H's MLC.

Am I crazy?!!

Well, now. Let's see. Before bomb drop, I was floating through life in a marriage that I knew had some issues that were there, but mostly dealt with in bursts of anger (on my part) but then swept aside by H. He didn't deal with them and, other than voicing my dissatisfaction, neither did I.

Before bomb drop I was lonely and felt that I didn't really have any friends. Just people to attend functions with. But no one to share intimacies with (other than H). I was verrrrrry unhappy, but dealing with it by becoming codependent.

Before bomb drop I felt the need to do things with my life, but didn't know what. My life so revolved around H that I had forgotten who I was and had stopped growing.

Before bomb drop, I had resigned myself to feeling like a failure because I had not achieved my educational and career goals. I felt incomplete.

Before bomb drop I felt unappreciated for all that I did running the household and finances.
I felt weak, drained, depressed and unattractive.

Unintentionally, H has "freed" me. I've lost a ton of weight (not literally), found my interests, found friends to share them with, found my strengths, am trying to go back to school to create and further my career, and, most of all...H's MLC has allowed me to grow my patience, compassion, and understanding of what others maybe going through that causes them to act in what I perceived to be negative ways.
{Most people don't purposefully do things to cause others pain and discomfort. They are just trying to ease their own.}

For forcing me on this journey, I am thankful.

Now, for our dinner together...after thinking about it, its just another weirdness.
He was feeling sad, frustrated, depressed, overwhelmed...like a failure. He was sad that we had to sell all of our stock to pay taxes.
He was down on himself because he didn't get onto our drywall guy about getting the job done when he said he would (its still not done) while the contractor I hired to do some bigger repairs was already done.
He (I think) is being sad that I started pushing him to tell me what things he wants to keep so that I don't pack them for me or sell them. I think the idea of this being real is hitting him now.
I also told him I would like to know what type of relationship he thinks we will have after D, since he seemed to be taken aback that I wouldn't feel free to use our vacation home, which he wants to keep. He said "I haven't really thought about that, that far".
Anyway, he was having trouble on Monday. Since he doesn't label his feelings well, he was having a "pessimistic" day. I validated, tried to help him label his feelings better, and mostly listened. Then he just asked me if I was busy that night because he was hungry and wanted to go out to dinner, but didn't want to eat alone.So I drove 20 min into town. We ate, talked, had a good time. And then went to our homes. All so completely...friendly.

[kml]

I could have written the same first half of your post. The changes that my ex's affair, our successful reconciliation, and his subsequent departure several years later in MLC forced me into, have been the greatest growth experiences of my life.

I was happy in my life before the bombs, but I can be comfortable in a rut. And I was so busy twisting myself into a pretzel to keep my difficult H happy and care for our 3 wonderful but difficult kids, that there was little left over for me.

I learned to take chances despite my cautious nature, I learned not to settle for less than being cherished in a relationship (which my boyfriend now definitely does), I made new friends, I learned to play the drums at 53 and now play in a pop-punk cover band (our next gig is next week ). I'm free to do the things that I am interested in. (I was always willing to try my ex's things but he was never willing to try my things.)

And yes, I learned to maintain compassion towards him even though he has been quite the jerk on many occasions since our divorce. (Word to the wise - if you can get a lump sum distribution in a divorce in lieu of alimony, take it! My ex is so pissed about paying me alimony after 24 years of marriage - and so bad at math and taxes that he apparently has been laboring under the delusion that he's paying me 25% of his income instead of 11% of his after-tax income - that he has taken every opportunity to shift costs onto me when it comes to our kids, to the tune of almost $100k. I imagine our relationship would be a lot friendlier right now if I could have taken a lump sum, but that wasn't possible at the time.)

Yet I am able to see how damaged and unhappy a person he is, and I'm grateful to be me, not him.

This opportunity for personal growth is really what DBing is all about.

[Rouky]

Thank you Kml for this. It is what I needed to hear tonight! Thank you to show that there is life after all this ordeal and that we can be happy again :-)

[melweb]

Thanks Cil and kml. Beautifullly said.

I am not as far along as either of you, but I feel this is happening for a reason as well. While, at first, I was sure this was the wake up call our M needed, as our M was less than stellar. I was angry and bitter; he was angry and stressed. I have come a long way since BD. Now, I have no idea what the reason is or will be, but I will be ok. With or without him.

The constant up and downs, ins and outs, have def taken an emotional toll, but I try to remain true to myself. And my kids. S15 said I was a great mom tonite, in front of one of his friends. That made me feel pretty darn good. I am blessed.

Cil-- I think you are doing a remarkable job. Hang in there girl!!

[ciluzen]

Hey, Mel. That's awesome that your S15 would say that...especially in front of a fellow teen! And remaining true to yourself will probably bring about more respect from your kids.

Thank you for the compliment. Sometimes I don't feel like I'm doing so well. H came over today while I was doing a 5k and went through his pile of stuff in the downstairs bedroom. H took about 1/2, including the container with his wedding ring. He has never worn it (except at the wedding)...he just wasn't a jewelry person. Mine was stolen 6 years ago when our house was robbed...I had stopped wearing it during "gardening season". Aren't we a pair? I wonder if he even noticed it.

Tomorrow I'm doing another 5k (accidental scheduling), but he will be here in the afternoon. We don't have too much left to do before officially listing the house. I will feel a little less stressed when that happens. I feel like I'm going 15 ways at once with that, GAL and trying to go back to school.

Its funny. For someone who doesn't want to hurt me anymore (his reason for filing D), he sure has hurt me. For someone who keeps saying he doesn't want me to change, he sure has made it so I had to. For someone who said he doesn't need or like me, he sure has asked for my help, listening ear, and companionship a lot lately. I guess it really goes to show we really should only believe 1/2 of what they do and nothing they say.

[inpain]

Hi Ciluzen

You sound like you're doing so well at this - you're amazing! I can see why you wrote that you are thankful for H's MLC in the senses that it has led to you finding yourself again. If only we could find ourselves and keep our Hs at the same time.

I also told him I would like to know what type of relationship he thinks we will have after D, since he seemed to be taken aback that I wouldn't feel free to use our vacation home, which he wants to keep. He said "I haven't really thought about that, that far".

This sounds exactly like my H! If I had a pound for every time he has given me the answer, "I haven't really thought about that, that far."!!!!!!!!!!! Do they do ANY thinking at all about the major, destructive, issue they have created?!?! I find it incredulous that they destroy everything that was their life and do no thinking about it, or the future consequences, whatsoever! It is so frustrating.

It seems like a good sign that he chose to ask you to dinner when he was feeling down. I'm sure there have been many other times since your S that he has felt down and he didn't ask you to dinner then. As you say, it is so true that we should believe half of what they say and do.

[bttrfly]

in the case of my H, he has said that "eventually" we will be happy and in relationships with other people, he hopes ... said in the trailing off voice of someone who isn't really sure that even they buy the hogwash they are selling others ...

i think one of the key factors in all of this is that they have no impulse control and just flop about, flying by the seat of their pants. That's why it's so important for us LBSes to focus on GAL and ourselves, so we aren't at the mercy of the MLCers' rampant insanity.

xoxoxo

[job]

ciluzen,

A very well written posting and it's true, many of the stories/tales that we read about as children or even as adults have many lessons for us to learn...we just have to read them and then think about them for a bit and we will finally see the lessons in them. I had never read this particular one about the Raven and I want to thank you for sharing it w/us.

You've come a long way in such a short amount of time. We all are so very lost in the beginning and can't see 2 ft in front of us, however, in time, we learn how to DB and move forward and with moving forward comes the awakening of ourselves and what we put on hold many years ago can now be revisited again. I know that people get very frustrated hearing "keep the focus on you", "be kind to yourself" and "be patient", but these comments are very important to each and every poster when they come here and they do eventually get it and come to realize that MLC gives us a chance to really look at ourselves, our situations and yes, even to change the things that we can change for ourselves. We really do have the "gift of time" on our side.

Your posting is spot on and thank you for sharing your thoughts and what has come to light for you as you continue on your journey.

[ciluzen]

Thank you everyone for your kind words, support and sharing of your own stories that echo my own.

IP, it is sometimes amazing that they don't seem to think about the future. I think they do think about it, though. They think about it in terms of what they want to change to create their fantasy future with no problems. All else is background noise.

And yes, Bttrfly, my H has said the same thing about me finding another that I could be happy with. He doesn't realize that I was happy with him until he started acting in ways the put me last on his list.

Job, I always look forward to your posts. You always have a way of looking at what is posted and either give supportive feedback or raise interesting questions that cause me to think a little harder about what I've said or done...tweaking my route on the journey a bit.

As for my thoughts for today, I'm a little stiff from two 5ks, house painting, and cutting up slash piles (dead trees and branches) from storm damage in our corrals with H.

He came by Saturday morning and took 1/2 of his stuff while I was gone. He then talked to me a few more times. Then as he was heading back from the vacation home from dropping his stuff there, he called again. I was painting our daughter's room so he stopped by for a look. It was a tough thing to do at first, because I had painted murals on her walls (Harry Potter scenes) that our real estate agent had suggested might not appeal to some buyers. They were kind of wild, LOL.
He kept stopping to stare at the rest of his stuff or out the window. He commented once that "this is a really big house" (?) and that he had more stuff than he thought he had in the guest room. I'm not sure what was going on in his head to make those comments. I just agreed.

He came out the next day and loaded up the rest of the stuff while I painted some more and then we started in on the forest/corral. We talked about the kids and a patient he saw while I was doing my race that morning. She had dementia. I asked about his mom and tried to allow him to share his feelings about her and her alzheimers. He's not good at that. I let him know I cared about his parents and wanted to be kept in the loop about them; also our elderly neighbors at our vacation home. Talked about his brothers. He's stressed because they don't like each other and he is going to travel the week after mother's day to see his family and he wants to see both of them, but not upset either by doing so. Lots of opportunity to let him share worries and help him sort his feelings. He again spoke of his money/business stresses. I asked if I was stressing him and he said "no! You've been magnificent; painting, managing contractors and real estate agent..." I'm magnificent.

When he was heading out I chanced it and put my arms out for a hug...I got a good one back. Not stand offish or tense. Almost like an "old H" bear hug. I made sure he knew it was a "thank you for helping today" hug.

Well, life is like a box of chocolates...

[job]

Yes, life is like a box of chocolates...but I've become very selective as I get old on which pieces I choose to eat! The same applies to life as well...we have choices and hopefully we all will make the right ones as we travel the path of life. If not, we can always learn from our mistakes and then share w/others to help them avoid the road blocks along the way.

Keep up the good work!

[ciluzen]

Thanks Job. Still not sure about how good my work is. I'm just muddling through like everyone else. It has been very hard having so much contact with H. I almost start to feel "normal" with him and then something said or done will jolt me back to reality. As much as I have on my mind and try to live my own life right now, this does cause me to think about him and miss "having" him as my H.

I did call and tell our agent that she could have the photographer out on Monday. Then it can be out there on the market, for sale sign up and everything. After that its just a matter of maintaining the house. My job.

I ended up taking the day off yesterday, just to try to get more done. H came out in the afternoon to help me put up a few fence rails...we drove in to town together for supplies and chatted about things.

He had been up at the vacation home again last night. He asked me what I wanted to do with my kayak. He was worried that if I left it up there that "everyone" would want to use it and it would get broken or ruined. He said he thought of hiding it or telling people it was off limits, but he didn't want to police the situation (or unspoken, be the bad guy). He said he wanted me to have it...to want to have it. That brought about mixed feelings.

While it was a nice gesture (I will take it...its mine), it also made it clear that I would not be there when others were there. No more watching the kids play and playing with them. No more being "fun auntie C". I know he was trying to protect something I cared about, but H doesn't realize how much that drove home what I would no longer have in my life that I really enjoyed.

He called later as he was getting home. He thanked me for all I had done to ready the house and for all of my hard work in general. He kept telling me thank you for paying our taxes. And then at the end he sort of trailed off and said thank you for putting up with me. That was a phrase he used when telling me why he felt unloved by me. That I only tolerated and PUT UP WITH HIM. I glossed over that at the time and just thanked him for helping me with... everything.

Then I started overthinking. Which led me to call him later. He didn't answer. When he called back he told me he had turned his ringer off and had fallen asleep in front of his tv. I don't think he had ever turned his ringer off when we were together. whatever. I brought up his comment about "putting up with him" and told him I never put up up with him...I did things with him because I cared for him. (I know...major pursuing behavior). He paused, then said he was talking about how he had been consistently showing up much later than he had been saying he would. His tardiness. ugh. whatever.

Yes, I still have a long haul in the detaching area. He still has his struggle, but I guess I'm afraid that even when we aren't working on the house together, I may not have mattered enough for him to EVER feel my loss when I'm gone. We have fun and are comfortable together, but what does that mean to someone who is convinced I just tolerate him?

[inpain]

Yes, I still have a long haul in the detaching area. He still has his struggle, but I guess I'm afraid that even when we aren't working on the house together, I may not have mattered enough for him to EVER feel my loss when I'm gone. We have fun and are comfortable together, but what does that mean to someone who is convinced I just tolerate him?

Ciluzen, please don't be too hard on yourself. You have detached amazingly in a relatively short period of time. This stuff is hard! I'm sure your WAH will feel the loss some day. I hope they all will! I only hope it's not too late when they do. The way you handle every interaction with your WAH and the way you're out there finding yourself again is such an inspiration to me, and I'm sure many others on here. Keep doing what you're doing, you're amazing! x

[HaWho]

Hi Ciluzen - I see a theme with your h's constant apologizing and his "you only tolerate/put up with me" comments. I am wondering if this could be projection from childhood? Hmm. It seems he's looking for something by bringing it up constantly?

Kudos to you for taking care of you and for hitting the books again. In general, I find the website Kahn Academy to be great for refreshers!

Hope you are managing to get some rest as preparing a house for sale is a tremendous amount of work.

[HaWho]

Oops - typo: I meant Khan Academy.

[ciluzen]

Hawho-That IS one of the refresher sites I'm using! It has been great for filling in holes in my knowledge and understanding. I'm doing better than I thought I would with the recall, too.

I do feel there are quite a few childhood issues that he is (hopefully) dealing with. I know his family and there are some interesting issues. Not things most people outside of the "inner circle" would see. But things that have affected him and how he deals with his emotions and communication. I do think the path I am choosing right now is the right one, given his behavior and what I'm seeing in him.

I am just trying to focus on me and what I need, but I want to be available (not at his beck and call, but when on my own timeline) when he needs to talk...I think he is trying to work through some issues and by giving him an ear I think that helps.

I will admit I am plagued by a few things. One is his ladyfriend. He has started mentioning talking to her husband more ("we" own a house with them) and will bring up working with him on projects at the vacation home. He has stopped bringing up her name to me, something he often did before (ie, "Bubbles" said such and such or "Bubbles" was doing this and that). And the few communications I have received from her were from the "Smith" FAMILY (a birthday card, a "thinking of you" TM after H told his staff he had filed. I still have a fantasy of confronting her with how much time she spent with him and what I know about the weekend she spent time with him. I don't think she knows that I have knowledge of that.

The other thing is, I am exhausted. I'm trying to pack everything up to make our house less cluttered and cleaner for sale. I've been painting. It is a large house. I feel that I'm doing 95% of the work plus trying to create a future that is ALL changes (school, job, income, living arrangements, new friendships I HAVE to nurture) and he isn't really helping. The energy keeping that pity party at bay is tiring, as well.

Anyway, at least I can back off on the house stuff a bit after the photographer comes. Just venting a bit today.

[ciluzen]

I'm focusing too much on H, right now. As I've said, I have a lot of contact with him while getting the house ready. I need his help, it has allowed me to see his behavior, demeanor, discuss his thoughts and feelings, etc. And him to see me and how I behave, what I'm doing, and what he's giving up (the house and property and "stuff"). But it also means he's on my schedule (although he is admittedly bad at keeping to what he says) and often on my mind.

So, some journaling. I decided (against some poster's advice) to keep my checkup appointment with him. Now does not feel like the right time to quit his office and make that statement. I started dreading it because my anger with his ladyfriend has grown again even though at one point I tried to forgive and let go, and she works at his office during the time my appointment was scheduled. I'm glad I went. She was, for some reason, not there that day. The other three ladies have been supportive and communicative with me on their personal time, but I hadn't seen them since they came to my birthday over a month ago. They were so warm and welcoming and very happy to see me!
H came in and joked around and did the exam, but I got the feeling that while he was being professional and treating me like every other long term familiar patient, he was a little awkward. Apprehensive? After my appointment all three ladies took time to stand around and catch up with me (talk of kids and family, recent activities, etc). Then H came over with pen and paper and started asking me what I needed him to do at the house this weekend. Mood dampener (way to bring up the impending house sale and state of our marriage!)I answered quickly then turned my back on him to go back to talking with the ladies. He sort of stood there, took a step forward, then a step back like he was going to say something, then hustled out of the room. We talked a bit more, then we said our goodbyes and I left.

The next day, he called to say he was on his way out to help with the house. He has been only really wanting to do outside work but it was raining. I reiterated that I needed help inside. I also brought up that I was going through old video that was unlabeled and that some were home movies of the kids that were pretty cute. He said he had no interest in seeing them; he was too busy (fair enough). When he was here he kept coming in to watch, though. I would pop in video, see what was on it, and go do another task as it played, then label it accordingly. I'd like to transfer them to DVD before they break. There are mostly just snippets and a few long ones. He made comments about how he remembered or didn't remember things.
Memory issues are a big worry to him with what is going on with his mother. He finally has been sharing that with me more. The videos seemed to trigger something in him, though. I had to leave after a few hours (we did manage some yard work together) so he left to go then, as well. I got almost 0 eye contact all day. He seemed preoccupied and tired again.

On a lighter note, my Special Olympics soccer team did great! So much fun! It rained hard on us before our games, but then cleared up. Such great kiddos. Lots of joy. D25 called to say that next game, she would come watch and be our team photographer. Looking forward to that.

I relaxed and had a pleasant night when I got home, but I had one more video to watch before bed. It was the one my sister's XH shot after our wedding and during the reception. I hadn't seen it in years. Saw so many people who I've lost touch with or who have passed on. We looked so young. I realized my mom and H's dad were only one year older than H is now. His mom was younger than H. It was nice, but bitter sweet. I can't believe how beautiful my H was. How he kept kissing me every few minutes. Not me kissing him every few minutes. I was interacting with all of my friends...talking and talking and smiling...Wow. Total role reversal later. And his family had almost almost no interaction with me or my family, or even very much with H. His older brother ws always close by, but although I saw his parents in many of the frames, they were not really looking our or his way or even talking to him. His younger brother was a groomsman and he doesn't even appear anywhere in the video...even when the rest of the wedding party is shown. I wonder if this was a "punishment" (they thought we should not have our big wedding because I was 3 months pregnant). I've said before, his family punishes...psychologically and by withholding.

Anyway, interesting to watch. Sorry for the book again. Just one of those weekends when I'm focusing too much on H.

[inpain]

Hi Ciluzen, just checking in on you. Sorry you've had a rough weekend where you've found yourself focusing on H too much. I think it is very hard when we're still having so much contact with them! It is so much easier when we are young and a boyfriend finishes with us and we can avoid them like the plague for ever.

You may not feel it, but you still sound incredibly strong to me! To be able to face H so often while doing the house, and to be able to watch videos and look at photos from happier times shows a great strength!

Great news about your soccer team! You're such an amazing lady!

[ciluzen]

Thanks, IP. I needed to hear that. I really have had a downer weekend (except soccer and visiting with a friend). Its been an "I miss old H" weekend. I just can't pull out of it.

After telling me as he was leaving yesterday that he would call last night or this morning to let me know when he would arrive today, he was a no-show with NC by 3:00pm. I really needed his help on some things. So I called. He was less than happy to hear from me, it seemed, but said he would come.

I got a grumpy negative H. No eye contact, very little talk, no jokes, no smile. I can't even say he seemed tired. He just seemed irritated or simmering with a dash of "I give up". I wanted to ask if he was mad at me for something, but... well, duh. We're divorcing! I just cleaned a bit while he mowed and worked on a few things, tried to be light and breezy but it was hard with Mr Negative Nelly. He complained about dandelions and dust. I don't usually see this version of H. No mask whatsoever. Just pure depression? I don't like this guy.

Back to work tomorrow. In every way. I think I can back off on the contact a bit more now that the major projects are done. The house should photograph very well. Then we will wait and see what will happen next.

[Esame]

Citizen it sounds to me like you are doing really well. It must be really hard with all the work in the house and everything else, so please try to ignore his recent negativity.

You must be rally pleased that all major projects in the house are done, maybe you can reduce contact now.

[ciluzen]

I still have a few projects, but I don't think I will ask for his help. I will breath a little more easily once I get the "for sale" sign up.
I really love this house. I think H does, too. One of the videos he did see on Saturday was of the construction. It was very obvious how much work we put in as a family. I noticed that yesterday he looked out at our view a lot. There are some major losses here. Not just financial.

While being negative yesterday, he did get some digs in on a daughter. Mentioned that she only visits him when she needs money. He had a rough relationship with her as she was growing up- they are both stubborn and always "right". It seemed they were closer after his relationship with older D started having trouble (when she got engaged, started getting tattoos). His sense of loss and depression must be huge right now.

I wish I could help him more to work through it all. He's either blaming him, me, or ...I don't know. Its all mind reading. This is for him to work through and I need to let him.

[inpain]

Phew! Ciluzen, your H certainly seems to still be on a huge roller coaster! What a change in behaviour from him asking you out for dinner only a few days before! I know exactly what you mean about not asking him for help. I am trying to do everything without asking for help from H. I don't want him to think I am helpless without him. The only thing that has come up so far that I couldn't do myself I got my Dad to help me instead.

I hear you on the major losses too. There is so much loss in these situations, of every kind. Maybe your H is suddenly realising the enormity of what he is losing. Up until now he has lost the house because he no longer lives in it, but it is not totally lost as he can still visit it. That is soon to change and it is probably making him think more than he is letting on.

Keep being the amazing person you are. You are doing so well.

[ciluzen]

Thanks, strength buddy. Your support on here is helping my PMA. I know I can get through this one way or another, but the times when I get stuck on H and mind reading or missing him...kinda tough.

He is all over the place. He is very good at putting on his mask and acting as if its all ok, even tells me he's fine when I ask if he's ok. And its believable. Maybe he really is. But then there are times like this weekend. My super spidey sense tells me he is upset (mad, sad, tired, preoccupied...one of those) but he is shut down and won't share with me. I'm back to being some BODY of no importance. His mask is off, but his jaw is clenched shut.

I guess I really am back to almost NC on workdays now. Got to go back to focusing on me again.

[ciluzen]

Just applied for community college. My next step after acceptance is to take the darn math placement test. Hopefully I can test out of that algebra class and just take statistics. I also need a psyche class. Crossing my fingers that I can do this over summer and be able to take my other prereq in the fall and then get my aps in for the masters programs.

The photo session for the house went well and the listing and slide shows look fantastic. It is beautiful, exciting, and makes my stomach churn. This is not how I want to leave this place, but it is what it is.

After thinking about it, I realized that H had no intention of coming out to work on the house on Sunday...he only came because I called to say I needed his help. Funny, I had told him I did the two days previous and he said he would. Did he forget?

He called from work last night to ask how the photo shoot went and seemed surprised when I told him the listing was live. He watched the slide show while I was on the phone and seemed excited. I asked if that was all he wanted and when he said yes, I wished him a good evening and hung up.

There really is no reason for him to come out anymore. I believe I can do everything else around here myself and will. I feel a bit better now that the race to put the house on the market is over. I can relax a bit, focus on my studying, go back to NC as much as I can, spend time with my friends and activities, and create the new transitory normal.

[job]

You are doing so well in spite of your situation. I think it's a very good idea to go to community college. Hopefully you will ace the math placement test and be on your way! This is a really nice goal for you to reach!

I'm glad the photo session went well. You've done the best you can and I'm sure the photos are amazing. No, your h didn't forget that you needed help. The guilt of seeing the home being put on the market and the clearing out of belongings may have been too much for him to bear. He can't face the fact that everything is just about to be completed and the home he knew will be gone in the future. On some level, he knows he's to blame and he does feel guilty about it.

If you can do the rest of the things yourself, then by all means do them. It will give you a sense of accomplishment when you tackle them and get them done. Just don't over do it!

Relax and enjoy the company of family and friends for a bit. You've accomplished so much on your own...you deserve a break!

[melweb]

Cil--so happy for you! You've come a long way, baby!

[ciluzen]

Thanks Job & Mel. We have the first showing of the house tonight. Everyone is telling me how happy they are for me. But, to be honest, I am so sad. I love how beautiful and peaceful it is here. I knew we couldn'the grow old in this house...too much upkeep. But it drives home that I will be finding my own place, not "we". At least I will be busy GAL tonight.

[bttrfly]

Ciluzen I'm so sorry you are going through this. I know how difficult it is as we just sold our home a few months ago. I"m glad you have plans tonight Sending you hugs. xoxoxo

[inpain]

Oh Ciluzen, I can only imagine how hard it must be to do this, I really feel for you. Such a sad, sad thing to do. Do you have to show the house yourself or is the agent doing that for you? I'm not sure I could do it myself when it's not a move made by choice.

I'm glad you have a GAL activity to do tonight to take your mind off it a bit. What is it that you're doing? Sending hugs strength buddy! IP

[melweb]

How did the house showing go? Fingers crossed

[ciluzen]

Apparently very well...good feedback. Loved the house, but too much landscaping. They wanted acreage with less upkeep (oxymoron?). Another showing tomorrow, though. Fingers crossed here, too. Thanks for checking!

[HaWho]

Ciluzen - just want to pop in and wish you good karma tomorrow.

Kudos to you on how much you have accomplished in the midst of all the chaos that has been hurled your way! Wow. It takes so much work to prepare a house for sale and you did it with tremendous dignity, especially given the circumstances.

Hope you get some much deserved rest.

[job]

I'm glad things went well yesterday w/the house showing. I am finding that people want homes these days, but they don't want the outside upkeep, especially if it is landscaped beautifully and lots of lawns.

I'm sending positive thoughts your way and hopefully someone will come along today and put a bid in to purchase your home.

[inpain]

Hi Ciluzen, just checking in to see how things are going.

[ciluzen]

Thanks, everyone, for checking in and wishing me well.

I find myself needing others a lot right now. I'm not sure why, but I'm back to feeling very down and alone. I have grown some supportive friendships, and my older daughter has been very good at being there for me (and I for her, as she is going through her own stresses), but I'm battling not longing for H again. I'm having a hard time trying to stay in the moment. I'm back to worrying about the future and rehashing the good and bad of the past.

I'm trying to be NC with H. He did call last week from work to see how the photo shoot went and was pleasant enough on the phone. But then...nothing. I wasn't done with house projects and maintenance (which he said he'd help with), but he seems to have checked out. I wonder if that had something to do with his grumpy demeanor the weekend I was going through videos? Can't read his mind. Anyway, I heard nothing from him, so I just worked on the house myself in between showings. On Sunday I finally had to call and tell him I could not start the riding mower. He was walking in a "roadrace" that we always did together as runners. I had chosen not to do it, as getting the house stuff done was a priority. I immediately assumed he was walking it with Bubbles as she would walk it while we ran. Got myself into a tizzy, thinking "how will he ever miss me if he always falls back to her!?" But he didn't...he chose to do it 2 days before with the lady from the office that I spent New Years with because her partner dropped out last minute. I am so not detached. Little moments like this remind me that I've still got a ways to go in that area.

He came over to help, apologizing for not doing some things to it to make sure it ran. I had him walk me through those things so that I could manage it myself. He kept making eye contact, and looking at my with his head cocked to the side with a half smile. Another version of H? Must have been the endorphins from his walk. I had noticed he had paint cans in the back of his car and asked about a project he had mentioned at the vacation home. I wondered if he was going up to complete that. He was not going up, though (I'm on the way) so I just complimented him on the color choice and told him that it would look great. He only came up to help with the mower...didn't offer to mow and I didn't ask. A change in our dynamic.

After that whole exchange, something clicked. I mowed by myself. I then, instead of just leaving by myself while the house was shown, drove up my next door neighbors driveway and asked her if she wanted to go someplace with me(her husband works away from home for weeks at a time). We had a great time. I never would have done that before.

Then yesterday instead of hiring someone to come out and fix our central vac issues, I went to the center and bought the parts and had them explain how to install them. I now have a functioning plug (that one hadn't worked in three years) and the head doesn't make a horrible noise anymore. Did it myself and saved a few hundred on service call and labor!

This is, as my real estate agent says, an odd year for real estate. I have had a showing every day of my house, which means I have to leave for an hour or two on weekends or if its after work. Not getting much accomplished at those times. I guess I need to go to the library, then.

Feedback has been good...people love the house, the view, the property. Only negatives were personal preferences (ie, shop too small, view not "big" enough, too much landscaping). I guess its rare to have this much interest in this price range, but I'll take it! At the same time, it makes me realize how much I'm going to miss it. I have to remind myself; it is too big, too far away from town, too much work for me alone. I need to "get excited" again at the idea of being closer to people and shopping, and about creating a smaller more easily managed home. Transitions!

Anyway. Once again, wordy wordy me has written a book.But my journaling has helped.
I'm learning to be more self reliant. My confidence is very slowly building. I'm digging in on relationships with those who are supportive and distancing a bit from those who were initially attracted to the drama of my situation (there were only a few) and trying to forget about those who I thought were friends but couldn't show up when I needed them. I'm trying to live more in the moment...hard to do, but maybe I'll get there.
I'm trying to detach from H, but that is hard after 26 years. I relied on him for a lot for a long time. It is tough to be rejected and yet still have that person be connected to you. But NC, with a few hiccups, is going to get easier I think, as I learn to do things more and more on my own.
sigh.
It will get easier?

[job]

Trying to mind read can drive you batty...but we all have been there and done that. Detaching takes lots of time and patience and you'll get there. NC takes time too. In this case, he was inquiring as to the photo shoot. You can't rely on him to be there to assist you. He's off in is own little world and whatever strikes his fancy will take his full attention away from what he actually needs to be doing.

I think you did an excellent job of troubleshooting a few things around your home. Fixing those things should give you a lot of satisfaction and now you know that if you have to do something again, ask a sales rep at the store on go on line and check out some of the sites that can walk you thru the steps in record time.

Now about Bubbles...she's just that...a bubble and one day, she will pop and disappear. However, for now, she's just floating around being a crutch to his crisis and she's not the prize...YOU ARE!

I think it's wonderful that you asked a neighbor to go do something w/you. It got both of you away from the area for a bit and you had some fun. You'll have to do this again very soon.

Your home will sell, but it might take a little bit of time to do so. Kids are still in school and the closer you get to the end of the school year, the nibbles will start to come in more often. I, on the other hand, hope that you get an offer very, very soon.

Yes, NC will get easier. Patience and time are on your side.

[ciluzen]

Thanks, Job, for the feedback and wisdom. I needed that.

So far, NC has been good this week. I've been busy. I did see H called the other day (caller ID), but I was out taking a self defense class (Krav Maga-pretty intense!). He didn't leave a message or try my cell phone, so it must not have been important.

It was my second class and I met some nice people, including a tall, nice looking guy my age. I'm allowing myself to notice that, now. I used to brag that I never looked at another man because I only had one that mattered in my life. Even the husbands in our "social group" were kept at arms length. No phone calls unless necessary to them, as in only if I was babysitting and they were picking up. I've told my daughter that I wouldn't date until quite a bit after the D...no one deserves to be a rebound and I'm sure I will be a bit of a mess. She keeps telling me that I should date (her way of dealing with break-ups before she got married). Nope. I'm still married and I believe what I said above. But I think its ok to look and practice my "social skills", right?

I had one thought as I explored the idea of other men in my future. I feel, as so many others on this board have expressed, that I don't know the man my H is right now. He still shows some of the same traits (kindness, concern, helpfulness, in charge attitude); but they are weakened or forced seeming. Not true or real. Was he always this way? Am I seeing things right? I loved that he was an Eagle Scout when he was a teen- his father and brothers all were, too. He LIVED the scout law and was adamant about it. To be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. I was not a scout (obviously), but he was on the board in our hometown and complained about how many Eagle Scout contenders couldn't recite the Scout Law during the interview process. Early on in our marriage, he fit all of those descriptions. Now? Not so much. I wonder if he even realizes how much he's changed?

On the house front, there has been a showing every day of the house. Two yesterday. The feedback has all been good and, in fact, my agent said that one of the showings (her clients) will probably end up in an offer. Fingers crossed.

It is a painful thought, moving from here, but it is going to happen. It has to happen. I can almost picture living elsewhere, but due to all of the unknowns, I just have a shadowy dream-view that keeps shifting and changing as I get new info from my daily thoughts, activities, and explorations. So many questions and so few answers right now.

I can do this because I have to.

[job]

Your h is aware that something isn't quite right about himself, but he doesn't know what it is or has had the time to really focus on himself. The person you interact w/today is the exact opposite (mirror image) of the one you were married to. You have to remember that they need to tear down/destroy everything good in their past lives in order to face the demons, accept the things that they couldn't change as young adults and start to grow up. Hopefully, if he wakes up, he comes out a more mature and settled man. Some do change for the better and others will maintain some of their mlc traits once they are back on Earth...but no one knows until that time comes around who he will be.

Sit quietly, the answers will come.

[ciluzen]

I am taking your advice, Job. I will sit quietly when it comes to H. I will work on me and figure out who I am.

Tonight, however, I'm going to 180 something. Back around Christmas, I decided to try to forgive Bubbles for her part in this mess. I apologized to her for locking myself in my room at our vacation home often during get togethers (mostly her friends). I explained that it hurt me to watch my H, who I loved very much, gravitate toward her as he was distancing from me. I apologized for any animosity she might have felt from me. She said she felt NONE; that she just thought I didn't like her friends that she invited up. There was never an apology. I never brought up the fact that I knew she spent (at least) most of a weekend alone with my H. After much thought later, I decided I was through being nice and acting like her friend. She either didn't know or didn't care about her behavior. Something was wrong with her. Either way, she was no one I wanted to continue a friendship with.

So, H called this morning to let me know that he would be at the house helping one of her friends (someone he seems to enjoy) borrow our tractor and loading it onto a trailer. Old me would have stayed in the house and not interacted. New me is going to go out and be friendly; offer to help even. Why not be friendly to someone I supposedly "didn't like" (I was very nice to everyone she had brought up). And then I will go on doing my own thing after they are gone. I have a lot to do, after all.

Also, H informed me awhile ago that he is going down to visit his brothers and parents next weekend. When he told me, he explained that he was very stressed as his brothers had a falling out and don't speak to each other. He was worried about offending one by spending time with the other. He's such a middle child- always trying to make everyone happy at his own expense. His achilles heel. It should be an interesting trip for him. I wonder if he was trying to transfer the stress about seeing his parents (mom's alzheimers) to something more "acceptable"? Who knows.

[inpain]

Hi Ciluzen! Firstly, thank you so much for visiting my thread! You have given me so much to think about, I only hope I can find the strength to carry out what I know needs to be done!

Love your 180 idea for Bubbles' friend!

Interesting that your H is still using you as his 'sounding board' when he is stressed about something. I wonder if our WAHs even realise how attached they still are to us, even though they would deny it most vehemently it it were pointed out! I think it shows how inside themselves they are during this MLC, that they find it appropriate to expect someone they have hurt so much to listen to their issues when they've 'sacked' us as that person to lean on!

I truly am in awe of how well you handle your interactions with your H. I am struggling to interact with mine at the moment and have taken to busying myself in another room again, like in the beginning, to avoid having to do so!

Do you have any nice plans for the weekend?

[melweb]

Hi Cil. How are you? You sound like you're handling the current state of affairs with aplomb.

[ciluzen]

Hey, IP and Mel. It is getting easier. I have basically just chosen to go NC unless I feel its absolutely necessary. "Necessary", however, is getting to be a shrinking definition as I'm trying and succeeding in doing things by myself.

I'm getting better at not listening to people telling me how I should treat him (IRL). Some of the people I have chosen to share with are angry that I'm not so angry at him; that I am not mean or hateful. We (at least in my area) have become such an aggressive, me first, go out with guns a blazin' society. But its hard to hold onto anger when you understand depression or pain. I can be angry at his inability to communicate and rush to D, but that really prolonged my own pain. I'm tired of emotional hurt. I'm starting to, I guess, not take it personally? That is in part due to the wonderful idea of focusing more on me.

It was actually the easiest time so far, last night, of not talking R. H came over early to prepare our tractor and we talked easily. I was cheerful and friendly to Bubble's (and H's) friend; enough so that he started talking to me more as the evening progressed. We even gave him a tour of the house with both of us (H and I) telling stories and finishing each other's sentences. I bet that confused him!

H stayed and talked for awhile after the guy left. I applied no pressure, stayed upbeat, listened and asked questions about family, work, his trip south next week; but just enough to encourage him to talk and share. No desire to R talk. Easy peasy, light and breezy. Really.

Living in the moment. Instead of focusing on how much his BD and rejection of me (a thing of the past, now) hurt, or worrying myself silly about my life without him (a thing of the yet to be experienced future), I am slowly trying to learn to enjoy the moment. What does that get me that is better than revenge, retaliation, and witty put-downs aimed right at his gonads? Well, he's in a MLC so, from his end who knows. But for me? Peace of mind. Enjoyment. A feeling of contentment with myself for not spewing, or making a mistake, or pushing him further away, or...being a reactive b!#ch that wouldn't know the high road if it was steamrollered over the top of me.

I don't ask what he does on the weekends. Sometimes I wonder. Sometimes I do think of the things he's done and I get mad. Sometimes I get so down and lose hope that I'll ever have him back again that I'm in tears. But its getting easier to wipe it all away and focus on what I can do, especially at that moment.

IP, you are stronger than you think. YOU can do what ever you want. Your H HAS hurt you, but you don't have to continue letting him. Think about what YOU want, to make YOU more comfortable. A schedule? A new lock on the door? A written agreement of support? Go get it.

And Mel? So, so strong...and you know it. Just remember. Mother's Day is for YOU. What do YOU want to do for your day? Not your H's choice. Heck, grab the kids and go do something with just them. Send a clear message. This is MY life, and I won't share it with another woman, or tolerate my H bringing another woman into it. And I won't play nice "for the sake of the kids" on MY day. Firm, strong, but with a big bright smile and sweet soft voice.

Sorry, ladies. I'm feeling pretty good, right now. And I'm not even thinking about my sitch. Must be the steak salad and beer.

[melweb]

Cil!! Thank you so much. I do not feel strong today. I came home from grocery shopping and he was gone. It is what is tho, right?

I believe everything happens for a reason, and that means the good and the bad. So maybe on the other side of this, we (meaning us LBS's) have a stronger marriage, better than before, and we learn from the mistakes, and the journey made US better than before. Or maybe, on the other side of this, we are single again, but we are still better than we were! I hope the best for all of us, whatever that looks like for you!

Have a Happy Mothers Day. I bought steak and cheesecake and will enjoy the day right here with my boys. H-free!!

[ciluzen]

Ooh, Mel! I want your cheesecake! Chocolate hazelnut...uh, yum! Enjoy your Mother's Day, as well.

For my Mother's Day, I slept in today. I kinda did Mother's Day yesterday...got to spend time with both girls and it was my D24(!)'s Bday. I had a great day, with weird H interactions (what's new).

Started off early, getting set up for a soccer tournament my school was hosting. As I was coaching my team, H called. He knew I was coaching so I decided it must be an emergency and answered. He proceeded to tell me that he had planned on going to see D24 at her new rental house that she is partly moved into, but she wasn't answering her phone or texts and he was really frustrated because he had planned to give her a hug and a card and then go up to the vacation property and she was messing up his plans. I explained that she was probably asleep as she worked a night shift at a high stress job and that the crew goes out afterwards to "wind down". She probably didn't get in til 2 or 3 in the morning. He kept complaining so I told him I understood and that maybe he'd just have to talk to her later, and I tried to validate his frustration and concern. I then explained that I was in the middle of a game and needed to get back to it. I hung up.

D25 came out and photographed our last game and just loved it (its a Special Olympics team). She told me H called her after me and that he vented to her almost all the way to the game.
He went to D24's house and pounded on the front and back doors and finally got in to see her. So then he was going to try to make it to the game, but she let him know it was over and so he met us at our cars to vent some more.

D25 and I left, hung out for a bit in town, then visited D24 and her boyfriend at her house and brought her lunch. We had a fun time talking and laughing and taking a tour of the house. H had talked about how awful it was, but it was actually fairly big, clean, and not bad at all. Maybe the rent was a bit high, but not really. He also doesn't like D25's house that she just bought, but for its area, it was a great deal and a very cute house. I don't understand his inability to understand that. He also totally disagreed with the valuation of the vacation property...way too high (!!?). Its waterfront and very large! He's not researching it, but is a bit out of touch.

After spending some more of the day with D25 (my Mother's Day with her) I went home. After about 15 minutes (and after stuffing crackers in my mouth), there was a knock at the door. It was a man and his daughter. His family had been at a showing of my house that morning and were getting ready to drive back home (next state away) and were just in love with it. Came to drive by it one last time and saw I was home. So we got the rest of the family in and they asked questions of me that their agent couldn't answer. It was kind of fun (nice people).

I decided to call H and tell him. He was more concerned with D24. He wouldn't come right out and say it, but he's concerned about her being on a stimulant (drugs). Well, she is! She is on medication for ADD, anxiety and depression. He just kept saying it wasn't normal for her to sleep through his phone calls and knocking. Her response? She turned her ringer off so she could sleep and didn't answer the door right away because she wasn't dressed. I see both sides, and I do have my concerns about her. But H was very down, very frustrated with both D's when on the phone.

I'm getting a pattern now. He doesn't agree with either D's choices or lifestyles (D25 is doing very well and making quite a name for herself professionally!), he sees visiting his parents and brothers as a "chore he has to do", he has stopped really attempting to get involved in house projects (even though he promised to help financially and physically), and he goes up almost always alone to putter around at the vacation home (when he's not working), which is in need of almost no maintenance. He is stressed by his business and isn't sure he can "make it", although he is busy and doing well production-wise. Everything in his life is seen negatively-he refuses to see the positives. That is one lonely, disappointed, tired man. Our M just seems to be more of the same. A negatively viewed disappointment.

[Esame]

Ciluzen it sounds like you are in such a good place with your self improvement journey at the moment! Your mentality is so positive and balanced, you are truly an inspiration. I just wanted to say that I think you could not have dealt with things any better than you already are, and that you should be proud of yourself!

[ciluzen]

I'm trying, Esame. I used to surf (I grew up a SoCal beach bum)and I've gotten into the mindset of just rolling with whatever movement bumps my board. Keeping my knees bent and my body loose.

I really never do know what I'm going to get from my MLCer. Thursday he was talkative and friendly H when the guy came to get the tractor.
Saturday he was stressed and angry H with a narrow, negative outlook on everything that couldn't be swayed (but still able to vent to me).
Sunday I had to call because the lawnmower (once again) could not be started. I was greeted with a very happy "Happy Mother's Day!" . We then had a great talk about family and people we knew and "stuff". Of course, H was up at the vacation home and it was sunny, so why wouldn't he be happy? Then again, he was there the night before when he was super negative.

See? You just have to stay loose and deal with the rise, the fall, the random angled bumps...

He couldn't stop by but assured me he would come over today and it would start. He would mow and he even would help me with a house project I had been mentioning needing his help with. I acted like that was all fine...but here's the funny part. Old H was a weather nerd. Constantly looking at radar and weather info every day, all day. I knew we were supposed to have thunderstorms and rain today. So, was he oblivious? Or just saying he'd do it because he was feeling pressured and then going to blow it off last minute today?

Funny thing, though. It doesn't matter. My agent called to tell me she's going to present an offer on our house tonight. I texted H after she called and told him this and told him since he would be at the house anyway, she would do it then. He just texted back, "ok". Blowing it off is no longer an option. And since he is going to visit family over the weekend, if the lawnmower won't start, I'm going to hire someone to mow and then present the bill when he comes back...or at mediation since he is on record as saying he would help with maintenance and pay for repairs.

I feel mean doing that. But I get tired of this behavior, too. It is one thing to understand and not be angered all of the time by it. Its another to just put up with it. He tells me he goes to the vacation home and doesn't sit down...constantly working. There's really not a lot to do, maintenance-wise. He promised to help here. He hasn't really done ANYTHING since we listed the house. Promises to help and then doesn't. Unless I ask specifically (like make the mower work). He did apologize for everything we own having a "trick" to it to make it work.

Sigh. Who knows what goes on in his head.

[melweb]

Ummmmmm....do you really wanna know what goes on in his head!!??? Pretty sure its scary in there!

Congrats on your offer..hope it is what you looking for. Man, that was quick. Our house has been on the market for a year--no bites.

[Esame]

Congrats on getting an offer on the house, I hope it all goes well on that front.

I'm not sure I want to know what goes on in my H's head, I'm worried about what else I will find out. I'm still having "angry days" and I think if I was to get a totally honest account of what he is thinking, maybe I couldn't deal with that just yet.

[job]

Congratulations on the offer? Was it an offer that you can accept?

As for your h promising to help w/the maintenance and repairs...don't rely on him to do so. I don't believe that he's Mr. Handyman at the cabin. Sure, he may do something up there, but he's not busy. It's a place where he can go...sit quietly and just think. They say all sorts of things to make themselves look important and productive...bottom line, believe only half of what they tell you.

If the lawn mower won't start, it could be the battery. Do you recall when the last battery was put in? If the battery is over 2 years old. replace it. Very easy to do. Otherwise, hire someone to mow the lawn for you and I agree...present the bill to him.

I hope today is a good day for you.

[ciluzen]

He did come out early to help with the mower and another project. We were very easy with each other (easy, breezy).

Our offer was very close to our asking price. We countered and they accepted (all through the magic of email). H was very professional and together. There were a few very special pieces of furniture that the buyers wanted to stay with the house. That took me aback. H immediately reached out to touch my arm and told me I could say no. I kept saying I'd have to think about it. I must have looked shaken because he looked concerned and so did the real estate agent. Darn my expressive face! I decided later, it was just stuff. Just things with memories attached, like the house. They really did go perfectly with the house and were custom made. I let them go.

After the agent left, H looked at me and asked if I wanted to cry with him or alone. He had tears in his eyes. I was still fighting mine.

We planned this house after finding the perfect property, mostly wooded, but with a big field in front facing a beautiful view of fields, foothills, and our local mountains beyond. We worked on the plans for years with an architect well known for his use of natural light and open, flowing design. I made some of the tiles in the house. We handpicked accent logs, stonework, the natural greens and earth tones of the walls. Woodwork throughout. It was unique, warm, and comfortable. Everyone who visited loved our home. Our children were present and involved with almost every aspect from planning through building to furnishing (and "breaking it in"). Even some of their friends helped.

But it was symbolic of our marriage. As he started to turn away from "us", he stopped wanting to work on the house. He did the bare minimum in maintenance, while I took over more and more of the work. When he bought the vacation home, I worked on that, too. But I became the only caretaker of the house we lived in...all of his effort went to the other. The "fun" one. All of our plans for the one we built stopped, except for that which I felt I could do on my own.

So here we were last night facing the reality of not living here or even having the option. He told me, "I didn't expect it to sell." He told me, "I didn't think anyone would want it". He started asking me about the people that bought it (I had met them) and asked me what were their favorite things about the house. He was surprised to find out that they were older than we are, but not much. He brought up that because this was such an amazing real estate market for sellers here right now, that even if we were together we might have decided it was time to sell. This started a three hour R talk.

My take away from that...not sure. He was sad and tired. There were some revelations, both major and minor; some new understanding of past events; many "I'm sorries" on his part (I now dismiss those with "I understand you feel its important to say that"), and a lot of him just staring at me. I used to get uncomfortable and ask him questions when he did that. Last night I just waited him out.Let him gather his thoughts and speak first.

He told me he was owning all of the problems that caused the downfall of our marriage. I told him I would only allow him to own 50%...I own the other. And that I was, and had been, working on my issues and learning what I liked to do and what made me happy. Regardless of our status. It was for me and I was liking where it was getting me.

I then told him basically, this. "I plan on continuing with my journey of discovery of who I am and what I want; to try and remember the me before you. You once loved that person, and so did I. I think I'm starting to find her again. Could you ever see trying to work on a R with me, if I could let you be you again?" He asked, "you mean if you didn't make me feel like s$%t for doing things that make me happy?" I said, "yeah. If I let you be you". He said, "I don't know." I then said, "I'm having a hard time letting go of you and am willing to do the hard work because I think you're worth it." He had been trying to leave until this last volley, and started to again. He stopped just out of my sight and told me, "that was a very nice thing to say." He paused and then we said our goodnights. He called me a half our later to tell me he made it home. We said goodnight again.

I wonder if he thinks about the things I say the way I think about the things he says? He seemed to actually be listening and clarifying misconceptions. But there's so much guilt. I don't know if he can trust me to not make him feel worse. That would be a stumbling block for him. Not so much for me. I'm busy working on me. But he's not happy right now. Even with out me. And he knows it.

As for the house? I will miss it. But the people who are buying it will love it. And I have pictures and memories. Its all just "stuff".

[bttrfly]

your attitude is very very positive. this strikes very close to home for me so that's all i've got. hugs xoxoxo

[ciluzen]

Thanks for the hugs, B. I'm sending some right back atcha'.

I got the mower started and mowed our three weeks tall lawn (well, part of it). It was a loose connection on the starter. Feeling accomplished.

[job]

I'm so sorry about everything, but I'm glad the house sale is moving along and you were able to meet the people who purchased it. I'm also sorry that you had to make a decision on some of the pieces in the home. It's always so difficult when you are hit w/those type of requests because they weren't something you had thought about previously...but know this...they will love and take care of your former home.

Home is where the heart is and no matter where you go, home will always be there waiting for you.

As for what your h thinks about...he does think a lot about the conversations, the relationship, the good and bad times quite often, especially when he's alone. He may appear not to care or even listen, but really he does.

I do hope today is a better day for you. Sending you positive thoughts and good wishes today.

[ciluzen]

Job, thank you. I look so forward to your comments on my posts. And on everyone else's as well. These boards are my go to when I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm still nurturing my new friendships and, as most of us on these boards have found, I've lost the one person I thought I could share anything with and be understood (and advised).

I'm getting "ok" with the idea that I will be moving out of my home. It is just a house. I'm already looking to buy a much smaller house and have narrowed my search to a few neighborhoods in my city. But now here's where I'm starting to feel overwhelmed when I stop to think.

I have to be out of the house in a little over a month. I will be starting school a little after that (online, luckily). I have very little money, a tiny paycheck, and I won't have the money from the house sale until it closes. We are not D yet, but our mediation is scheduled for the month after the house closes. So basically, I don't qualify for a loan on my own and everything is happening all at once (or within a few weeks of each other).

My thought right now is to explain to H my situation when he gets back from visiting his family and try to put everything in storage and live at our vacation home for a little bit. I can leave and "couch surf" at my older daughter's and a friend's house during the weekends that people I don't enjoy (Bubbles) are there. But I think I can be in a house fairly quickly (within a month).

My lawyer wants to put in our D papers that H has to co-sign on a loan, and that I need spousal maintenance. That would make it easier to get a house. But we don't have mediation for awhile, so...not so helpful? Trying to move that up. I really feel that I'm going to end up tied to H. Not through M like I would have liked, but through D. How hard will that make it to move on? Not that I want that, but that I need to try. But I feel that him being responsible for me as a co-signer, plus giving me the proceeds from the house, plus money to live on is almost still like being married without the benefits. And he was trying to escape from that.

[inpain]

Hi Ciluzen, sorry I've been absent for a week or so. I wish I had something amazing to say in response to your posts, like you do with mine and other peoples. I've just been catching up and your posts to me are incredible and so helpful, thank you! Your post about the house and R talk with H made me cry. It is all so painful. I think Job is right, that they do think about what we say/do just as much as we are analysing what they say/do. They are just a million miles ahead of us at this 'game' and are so much better at hiding it and detaching. I'm not sure we will ever catch them up, but hopefully we can get to places where the pain stops for us. I think that being tied to our Hs forever is the most painful thing about all of this. Even if you didn't need any kind of financial support from H we all remain tied through our kids, grandkids etc. My kids are a long way off getting married etc but thinking about their wedding days, or the birth of any grandchildren and H and I not being together for them cuts my heart into pieces. (((((((Ciluzen)))))))

[amwknsw]

Gray divorces are very dangerous for women, unless you have been consistently working and accruing retirement. Have you? Women have less earning power than men and the older we get, the bigger the gap seems to be. If someone is essentially starting a career in their 50s, the outlook for retirement may be dire.

There is absolutely no shame in spousal support, especially if one partner made sacrifices for the other's career (and that includes something as simple as staying home with the children.) If your H doesn't know that he will be paying spousal after a 25 yr+ marriage, his head is sticking in the ground.

One alternative to spousal support is for you to receive a disproportionate share of assets (ie the house sale, retirement benefits, investment accounts, even the business.) You can also force the sale (or for him to buy you out) of the retirement home. Please don't risk your financial future because of any feelings you have for him.

Is renting, in the short term, a possibility to avoid the whole co-signing situation. Or borrowing from family in the interim. One friend of mine had her parents "re-finance" her house while the divorce was in process and then once everything was settled, she re-financed herself.

Going back to lurking now -- but just wanted to assure that there is nothing wrong with spousal support.

[ciluzen]

Hey, IP. So happy to hear from you! I miss you when you disappear.

I'm trying very hard not to worry so much about the future, and I'm not living so much in the past as being forced to deal with memories as I pack up the house. The fear and sadness seems to come in waves more now. I have sort of slowed down on frantically running from one activity to another as I've been getting more comfortable with alone time. In fact, this weekend, since H was away and visiting family (I was a bit jealous as my mother is 15 minutes away from his parents) I gave myself permission to not do anything house related. He was taking a break from the tiny bit he has helped, I think I deserved a vacation from the enormity of what I've been saddled with.

I did drive around neighborhoods I was interested in to get a better feel for them at one point. I ended that up by spending time with my D23 at an ER (she convinced herself that she had a major medical problem but it turned out to be a tension headache). Had good talks with her. She's very much like her dad and holds things in. Deep thinkers. But, just like him, when tired and sick, is unable to keep the mask on and can finally open up about feelings and fears and thoughts. We had a good, eye opening (for me) talk.

I read, I exercised, I watched "The Martian" and "The Big Short" (great movies!), I painted D23's (late) birthday picture, and just hung out and enjoyed my beautiful home. It was a nice GAL weekend, but relaxing.

Sunday I got an unexpected call from H. He was in the orchard at his parents house walking around by himself. He called to check in and see how the home inspection went (no word) and to say he heard about D23's ER visit. We discussed her quite a bit, mostly me validating his opinions. He actually thanked me for agreeing with him on a few points. He apologized for not being there to help (again)and (again) I validated his feelings about that.

He wanted me to know about missing his flight on the way down and how he hit a very low point when that happened; how he felt that he had let everyone down that were helping him to get to where he needed to be by not leaving time to get to through the airport. My D25 had already told me that he said to her "I thought of mom always wanting to get to the airport early, just in case, and how often I got irritated with her because I didn't like being in the airport so long. And then something went wrong and I missed my flight." He didn't share that with me, but instead shared how he realized that by trying to avoid being in the airport for long, he ended up having to wait for another flight, and then, instead of the original direct flight, he had a layover. More airport waiting. I commiserated, listened, and validated. Its becoming a habit now.

He also has talked a lot about a lecturer/teacher/doctor that I follow. He used to discount and make fun of me for getting excited about her, but he spent a lot of time talking about her. He seems to want me to know he's following her advice and respects her wisdom, now. Hunh.

Anyway, my takeaways from the weekend:

1) I'm being bombarded with advice from everyone on what I should do. My inner voice says "slow down"! I'm thinking of trying to just live in an apartment for a bit near work and school.
I may not get in right away, but I may just see if I can live at the vacation home for a week or two. No hurry. Not D yet. Its still partially mine. But buying a house in a hurry is not a wise decision (for me).

2)I've got a lot to do...lots of changes in my life. I think just accepting that is half the battle. I don't need to hurry into decisions, though. I just need to take steps into the directions I know I want to head, take a few steps off of the bank and into the river, but not be so afraid of the pull of the current. As long as I can keep my footing and my eyes open, I can follow the pull a bit. See where it leads. I'm excited about starting school. I also need to find a gallery to sell my art.

3)I can talk to H without pursuing. He does "check in" periodically. I can be his friend. I'd like to be more, but I can't while he is this unsure, childlike, ball of emotions. It is very obvious, now, that he is thinking and dealing with his "stuff". I'll let him. When he wants his friend to talk to (me) I will be his "home". I realize that turning to his parents is not going to be as beneficial to him, and that that is a part of his crisis...he was too dependent on them anyway, even as an adult. Still looking for their approval in everything and afraid of upsetting them if he failed. He is figuring things out.

Back to me. Focus on me.

[ciluzen]

Gray divorces are very dangerous for women, unless you have been consistently working and accruing retirement. Have you? Women have less earning power than men and the older we get, the bigger the gap seems to be. If someone is essentially starting a career in their 50s, the outlook for retirement may be dire.

There is absolutely no shame in spousal support, especially if one partner made sacrifices for the other's career (and that includes something as simple as staying home with the children.) If your H doesn't know that he will be paying spousal after a 25 yr+ marriage, his head is sticking in the ground.

One alternative to spousal support is for you to receive a disproportionate share of assets (ie the house sale, retirement benefits, investment accounts, even the business.) You can also force the sale (or for him to buy you out) of the retirement home. Please don't risk your financial future because of any feelings you have for him.

Is renting, in the short term, a possibility to avoid the whole co-signing situation. Or borrowing from family in the interim. One friend of mine had her parents "re-finance" her house while the divorce was in process and then once everything was settled, she re-financed herself.

Going back to lurking now -- but just wanted to assure that there is nothing wrong with spousal support.

Hello amwknsw. No, I was a SAHM for about 20 years. When my youngest was a senior in high school, I got a job that I love, but it does not pay well. I really only got the job to be busy and contribute a bit to the bills. It does have good benefits, though.

Even last spring, my H and I were discussing retirement and when we would downsize and where. I was completely surprised when he told me we were done a month later. I wish he would have done this when I was 35, not 49. Actually, I just wish he wouldn't have done it at all.

H thinks he is being very kind by giving me the equity in the house. He believes I can just run out and by myself a house and still have a "nest egg" with that. Although it is a good sized amount, it isn't enough to last long. I plan to go back to school for a Masters in MFT, an expensive program, as a full time student...I won't be able to keep my job or work for those two years. But its a career that can go for quite a few years, as well. Yes, I will need maintenance. Our marriage lasted almost 26 years. I will fight for that.

[ciluzen]

So, I awoke last night from a fitful sleep full of dreams.

I had been out looking at apartments and also possible houses with my realtor all day. It was depressing. Our sellers market is driving people to pick up rentals due to lack of houses for sale. There are almost no rental houses and very few apartments. Crazy!

My realtor mentioned she had not heard from H about the inspection report and that we needed to respond by today, so I had texted him that morning to tell him she had emailed it (he seldom checks his email). He hadn't responded. So, after fighting myself all day, I called him. It was a workday, I knew he would be grumpy and tired, and...he was. He took my apology asking him to do something as sarcasm, when I actually was apologizing because I knew he would be tired after his second day back at work after a very late flight. He was so brittle and cold that I cried after getting off of the phone. So much for detaching and being non-reactive.

Anyway, I dreamed about confronting Bubbles. It was tense but went well and I took from that the message that I need to let go. I've already cut her out of my life.

I dreamed about living in an apartment complex I haven't previewed yet, its still under construction. I felt really good about it. I've decided to cancel my appointment with my realtor today (I should not be buying right now) and try to see the apartment tomorrow. I really think this was my subconscious telling me which direction to go. I've been having trouble figuring that out, the whole "what I want" thing. For once I have no input from H.

Its funny, that was one of the things that set me off last night. I told him we needed to talk about things before mediation, spousal support being one. I told him I wouldn't pay for a house outright and that I might rent an apartment right now, anyway. That I might need him as a co-signer, ether way. He immediately took that as me asking him to decide what to do for me and got really upset and agitated...said if I wanted advice or opinions he'd give it, but he wasn't making decisions for me. Very upset. I had to explain that I was making my own decision, that I wasn't even asking for advice or input from him, but letting him know that I might need a co-signer as my income was too small to get me anything alone and since we have no D yet, nothing to say what it will be in writing. He agreed to do that by saying, "ok, co-signing doesn't scare me. I'm not afraid to co-sign." I feel that was a very telling choice of words paired with that reaction.

[job]

I'm glad you have decided to rent a place for a bit. You don't know what the future will hold and until the divorce is final and your home sold, you have no idea what you will be getting in the way of funds from either one these areas.

Have you tried to look at homes via the internet? Sometimes you'll find some really goods ones and then you can contact the realtor to check them out.

Please do not take his grumpy self personally. He was just back into the office from being away and I imagine he had a lot of catching up to do. He certainly is a bit touchy and was misinterpreting several things that you had mentioned, i.e., the rental versus purchasing and needing a co-signer. I would take his attitude w/a grain of salt and continue moving forward. I think you handled the conversation very well.

Good luck in finding a place.

[inpain]

Hmmm...I notice that your H back pedals just like mine whenever he is 'pinned down' (in his over-sensitive, over-reactive mind). That conversation about co-signing was a perfect opportunity for him to be clear about things and he gives a 'sitting on the fence' answer. I think Job's advice is spot on. I keep having detaching set backs too where H will do or say something and there I am in tears. Hadn't cried about it all in weeks until something small was said at the weekend and there I was again! This whole thing is two steps forward one step back. I guess we'll get there in the end!

It seems sensible to rent at the moment. As you say, there is no rush. I think are struggling to decide what we want in our situations because the whole situation is not what we want. We didn't want to be in the position of deciding where we will live etc, we thought we had all that sorted - for life!

You are so very strong and focused Ciluzen, you amaze me! hugs! IP

[kml]

Renting is a good idea. Home buying should never be rushed, plus you don't know how your finances are going to look once all is said and done with the divorce. Also, you can get much better deals on a house if you aren't under time pressure to buy; take your time.

I lived with my mom for 2 years while going through my divorce. It was during the real estate crash and since I'm self-employed, the lenders all wanted to see a year's worth of alimony checks to qualify me.

It worked out well, because I had a lot of time to look at houses and think about what I needed, and when I finally found the house I wanted, I was able to make a non-contingent offer, I was pre-qualified, and I could be totally flexible about closing time. I got a good deal that meets all of my needs and I still love it.

[ciluzen]

Thank you all for the advice and support. I did find an apartment. They haven't even finished building it, its so new. Because of that I got a Grand Opening Discount of about 70% off first months rent. Pet friendly, near hiking and walking distance to a state park, and across the street from grocery store and such. Great suburban neighborhood, and a great view with trees and mountains. I can move in after June 10. Perfect!

On another note, I had a strange experience with H. I can chalk it up to a step forward for him, if not for R. I think the former is more important right now.
We were discussing scheduling and I brought up things that needed to be done before I moved and our house needed to be vacated. One of our assets is a tractor neither of us needs, but we had agreed to sell to help my moving costs and give him some money for whatever. We had a semi-joking conversation about how many people were interested in it or coveting it. He finally came out and said he wasn't going to sell it. I was shocked, as that was our agreement. I reacted...very upset. Lost control, said things I shouldn't have...not a finer moment. It affected me as I was trying to coach a soccer tournament later...I had to leave my team and call my daughter to talk me down (psych major with anxiety-a good source for that) I was so shaken. I could not reconcile that man with my old H at all...first MAJOR MLC move (everything else was pale). With all of his financial woes, both of us living in an apartment, why on earth would he keep a TRACTOR?!

When I came home, H was in the driveway getting ready to leave (he had worked on something in the yard). I was very cold to him as he tried to tell me the nice things he did that day for me while I was gone. I thanked him and could not make eye contact except to glare a bit, which makes me uncomfortable because...well...I'm not that way. He left quickly and neither of us said goodbye.

So here was my strange thing. I chose to call him later. I told him, I'm very upset with you. I can't trust your word anymore. He tried to tell me that he would bring the tractor home (it was at a friend's house)and then I could sell it for whatever I wanted and to whomever I wanted. He tried to tell me he would go to the office and figure out how much money he had given me, etc, etc. to show me how generous he was...I cut him off. I will not sell it, this is not about the money, it never was. I understand your stress about money and expenses. That's why your tractor decision makes NO SENSE to me. It is about you making decisions and not communicating your thought process. I FINALLY got through.

He explained, and apologized for being a wimp, but his father told him he could not sell the tractor (he "gifted" us money for half of it) because he "owned half". He said the same about another item. Ahhhh...controlling daddy issue is coming to a head. I sooo wanted to remind him of what a gift was, and that he is 52 years old, and that his dad is 80 and will probably never see the tractor again, and that he has never used it...

Instead I encouraged him to talk about it. I told him I understood how difficult it is to go against a parent, how that could create a lot of stress for him and confusion on what the "right" thing to do is. Validate, validate, support, support. His feelings of being a failure, his fears of going against his dad. I told him I spent more on an apartment because I had to get a 2 bedroom on the ground floor in case my mom came to visit. 12 mos at a higher price "just in case" my 80 year old mother chose to fly up here for a week. We sort of laughed about that. And about his dad bouncing around on an uncomfortable tractor uselessly driving it up and down the driveway at the vacation home (it would ruin the lawn).

There was a bit of R talk in there, me saying it was a workable relationship, yada yada, but keeping it light. He delved more into how he thinks I would be happier without him...he came closer to his (I believe) root feeling that no one could possibly love/like him, but shied away after a brief glimpse. I validated his feelings anyway, and told him maybe his fear of hurting his dad was bigger than he thought. And maybe his dad was actually more reasonable than he feared. Sometimes he just says stuff to say stuff. Maybe you can throw your fears aside and reason with him and actually communicate your reasons for wanting to sell it? He agreed and said, yeah. He is a reasonable man.

I told him you are not a "failure" in your parents eyes just because you feel you have failed. I repeated that I know he is worth more than anyone out there. That he is a good person inside. But further R talk was out. He kept changing the subject. But he is thinking about his issues. I can see his cogs moving and the light in his eyes. R may not happen, but he is dealing with his fears. And for that, I could sleep a bit last night.

[ciluzen]

So, a lot has been happening and, at the same time, not much at all.

I boxed up so much stuff to get the house ready to show, that I feel there isn't a whole lot other than my furniture and clothing and things that will move with me to box up. I could be deluding myself, but I have some time before I move and a bit of time after. The rest is stuff that H wanted or needs for him to deal with (I refuse to pack for him).

I've been following and posting on Bluwave's thread over in newcomer's lately. She had an H that seemed to have had an MLC (maybe) that came back. The discussions on there have been interesting, especially about "nice guy syndrome".

When we here talk about how our MLCers often have depression and are dealing with childhood issues that haunt them, if they have always been a "nice guy" and their MLC behavior still shows them trying to be nice while acting like an alien has stolen their body, you may have a Mr. Nice Guy situation.

After reading up on it, my H fits EVERY SINGLE TRAIT. Not just the "nice" parts, but the not-so-nice traits. Because a "nice guy" isn't really so nice. They feel that they need to mask the real them by hiding feelings, traits and behaviors that they believe are not ok. Dishonesty and convincing themselves of a "new" set of rules dependent upon their wants (compartmentalizing) as well as stuffing feelings which eventually erupts in bizarre behavior or emotional explosions are some of those traits. It is information that I think is more beneficial for the H to understand about themselves to help them heal, but may be good for the W to understand if she is able to truth dart a bit. I don't want to spend time re-writing what's been said, but its worth a look.

I continue to encourage H to use me as a "friend" to vent or talk to when he can. It seems to help him to organize his thoughts. And share. I don't think he really shares the deeper thoughts with others. Maybe I'm wrong. But I really don't think so. And I don't feel I can flat out tell him my ideas on his daddy and mommy issues, or even his "nice guy" issues and how they might have had an effect on his self image or our R. But I can listen. I can validate. And once in awhile I can ask a question that might cause him to think in those directions.

Other than that, I'm moving forward. I get to take a placement exam this morning to place into one of my pre-req classes and am already signed up for the other. I'm getting excited about moving into my apartment (or trying to), and just kind of coasting a bit right now.

[Esame]

Sounds like you are being a really good friend to him, you are doing such a great job considering how things are between you two.

I also tried to read on the Mr Nice Guy Syndrome, but I cannot concentrate at the moment. I will try again though, it sounds really interesting.

[2Times2Many]

Glad to hear you're getting excited about the new apartment. It's a lot of work, but moving to a new place always felt like a "new beginning" to me with a lot of anticipation and hopes about how life would be different and new.

It sounds like your H is comfortable talking and sharing with you. I think that's a good sign and you're doing a good job of just being a friend who listens.

Hope your placement exam went well.

[ciluzen]

Placement exam went well...on to statistics class!

Still trying to move forward, but everything reminds me of H or our sitch. It's like I stretch out in a new direction and something (a song on the radio, a comment, a restaurant name, anything) snaps me back to the reality that I'm no longer in the same relationship with him.

It is evolving, but it's like PTSD, I still find myself angrily crying and explaining to the mirror why I'm mad or hurt.

This weekend I'm doing a 10k near hour vacation home. I asked (I asked!) If I could spend the night there so I wouldn't have to drive so far in the early morning. I explained I didn't mind if others were there, but if "Bubbles" was there I wouldn't. His response? "Just to sleep there, right? I'll let you know what the plan is."

It still makes me mad that I'very lost everything and have to create a whole new life, new job, new home, new friends, etc and nothing really changes for Bubbles and her family and all H loses is me and the home. Even my kids are losing a lot. I cry "unfair"! But it is what is I guess.

I'll just have to pull my big girl panties up and keep learning and living. Bluhhhh.

[doodler]

Yeah, me neither. As I said, we really don't get to know another person's perspective unless they tell us. Who knows what the wife thinks she's accomplishing by pushing them together. If she really is pushing on purpose, she obviously has a reason. Does she believe they are having an EA?

ciluzen,

I don't know if my wife's EA friend's wife (I'll call her Fanny) believe's they are having an EA, but I don't think she does. My wife has told me that she's talked to Fanny about my believing that it's an EA, but that doesn't mean much because my wife knows how to carefully parse her words.

Fanny calls my wife and her husband "twins." Physically they couldn't be more different, and from my perspective, they're very different in personality, disposition and level of intelligence. My wife's EA friend (aka Dick) is a bit of a dull boy.

As an example of something Fanny would do, she would "front-run" for her husband. When Dick started calling my wife at home, I didn't care for that and I let my wife know that I didn't like it. So, Dick stopped calling and Fanny started calling; my wife would talk to Fanny for a minute or two and then Fanny would pass the phone to Dick and he'd talk to my wife for however long they wanted to talk. I've always thought that was very weird. Fanny has done a number of things like that; it's almost as if she wants her hubby to go to the OW (unfortunately it's my wife).

My wife is the victim of childhood sexual abuse and supposedly her EA friend and his wife are victims of childhood sexual abuse as well. People that have been sexually abused early in life tend to have poor boundaries and are often victims of rape later in life (my wife is in that category).

When my wife first hooked up with Dick I was supportive of the friendship because he had (supposedly) first had experience with the kind of abuse she suffered and could offer her support. But, there was another woman where Dick worked (which was where my wife worked) that was also the victim of child sexual abuse and evidently Dick and that woman where deep into sex talk. Eventually things exploded at work (it's a much longer story); when I heard about that, it raised a huge red flag and I started thinking of Dick a bit differently.

Just for the record, Dick is a 61 year old grandfather; he's fat and frumpy. I don't know what he's got, but the abused women seem to like him.

Early this year, my wife and I went to MC and my wife only made it to three session (I had to beg her to go to the third session). I started going to the MC by myself and she said that my wife was absolutely in an EA with Dick. I asked her why Dick's wife didn't seem to mind and she just said, "Some women are like that."

There's a lot more to the story, but I'll stop there for now.

Thank you for all of your feedback, it's greatly appreciated.

[doodler]

ciluzen,

I was just reading some of your old posts; there seems to be many similarities in our respective situations. Does you husband think he's in an inappropriate relationship with Bubbles? Does Bubbles think she's in an inappropriate relationship with your husband?

[kml]

Doodler - I read over your threads. Have you noticed, your wife was abused by a babysitter and her boyfriend, and now she's involved with this creepy guy AND his wife? Sounds like she is recreating on some sick level the dysfunction that happened to her as a child.

This is more common than you'd think. My ex was traumatized by his mother's divorcing his father when he was 17 - then he left when OUR youngest son was 17. Not a coincidence, I think.

[ciluzen]

Coincidences, especially in the MLC world, are probably not just coincidences. We all long to go back in a time machine once in awhile or shout "Do-over!" I think that is a big part of some of these unexplainable situations.

I agree, kml, with your theory about Doodler's wife. We also see those who were molested becoming the molester to recreate the situation, but while being the one in control this time around.

I'm sure, Doodler, in your W's mind she has found someone who "understands" her and what she's gone through. He may seem "safe" to her because he is more fatherly or grandfatherly and not someone she is physically attracted to. Desperate minds can convince themselves of anything. She may have chosen him over you because you couldn't possibly understand her like he does (in her mind) and therefore she needs him more than you, right now. But what are HIS intentions? How long will this last? She has some work to do, but its almost impossible for us to be the ones to convince them they might need a pro to step in.

As for me, I don't know what Bubbles thinks. I'm debating on confronting her with how I feel about her behavior and how much damage it caused in my relationship. She has issues from her childhood and I truly feel that she doesn't know the extent of her part in this. I feel the need to confront her for my own sake even though I don't speak to her anymore.

And yes, it takes two to tango. My H knows how I felt about it, but his reply is that "nothing happened". Physical or not, his nothing is different from my nothing. He may think it was inappropriate and feel horrible or he may be downplaying it. I can no longer talk to him about that (at this time); it is "stuffed". I "beat him up" over it far too much before I learned how to communicate better. Now I'm just trying to rebuild his trust in me not beating him up. Hence the listening, validating, and tiny truth darts or (hopefully) thought provoking questions here and there. Sometimes that's all you can do. It may work for you, too, Doodler. But you know more about that R since you are in it.

I plan on continuing to stand for my marriage even after the D. I will still move on with my life and probably have much less contact with H, but as I've said before...that door is still cracked open. I am making sure that I'm here to talk to if he needs because I still think he's worth it. Even he sees himself as a failure (his words).

[doodler]

Doodler - I read over your threads. Have you noticed, your wife was abused by a babysitter and her boyfriend, and now she's involved with this creepy guy AND his wife? Sounds like she is recreating on some sick level the dysfunction that happened to her as a child.

This is more common than you'd think. My ex was traumatized by his mother's divorcing his father when he was 17 - then he left when OUR youngest son was 17. Not a coincidence, I think.

kml,

Oh yes, I noticed the pattern. In fact, this isn't the first time; before I'd met my wife she had a "good friend" and the good friend's wife was very similar to my wife's current EA "friend." I thought the previous friendship was a bit odd, but it was prior to meeting my wife so I didn't think much of it.

Please note, it didn't seem so crazy back then because I didn't know the real nature of my wife's childhood abuse until about four years ago.

[doodler]

And yes, it takes two to tango. My H knows how I felt about it, but his reply is that "nothing happened". Physical or not, his nothing is different from my nothing.

ciluzen,

I sent my wife a number of articles about emotional affairs. She says she doesn't believe in EA, it's just something someone "made up." She says that intercourse is the definition of an affair. And that's that.

When we got married I thought she'd continually get better (she has dissociative identity disorder), but since meeting her current "friend" things seemed to have gone downhill.

Right now my door isn't cracked open. Unless she made major changes I don't feel like I could ever trust her again.

Thank you for your feedback. This EA stuff is awful because so many people believe the friendship story and they don't realize that your spouse has literally replaced you with someone else. Yuck!

[job]

doodler,

Please stop giving her articles on affairs. She's not going to listen to what you have to say about them, much less read the articles. The more you try to educate her on this stuff, the more determined she's going to be do what she's doing. Leave her to her mess and allow the emotional affair to die a natural death. Keep the focus on you and continue moving forward.

ciluzen,

Sorry for the hi-jack.

[ciluzen]

I don't mind the hi-jack. I love it when people come over and have interesting, lively discussions at "my house".

On the door cracked open or closed shut, that is an individual's choice. We all have to act in accordance with what we feel is within us to do based upon what we think we see or don't see happening with our spouse.

I see H is working on some issues, including some very bad deep hurt and feelings of not being good enough. But he is working. That's enough for me to not shut the door.

Doodler, your W has some huge issues to work on and maybe doesn't quite grasp that she does. I agree with Job that articles on ea or self help books will be ignored...for now.

I'm guilty of giving my H a book early on which I'm sure he tossed. That's why as much as my latest reading applies to him and is actually designed to help guys who are like him, I can only use that book to understand him and maybe guide him better when I'm validating or listening by being aware of what he's saying. I'm not closing the door yet because he STILL says things that let me know he is changing and trying to seek my "approval".

Sometimes its a waiting game. I'm pretty well known for my patience...hopefully I can be strong, too.

[doodler]

Please stop giving her articles on affairs. She's not going to listen to what you have to say about them, much less read the articles. The more you try to educate her on this stuff, the more determined she's going to be do what she's doing. Leave her to her mess and allow the emotional affair to die a natural death. Keep the focus on you and continue moving forward.

Job,

I stopped giving her articles a long time ago. I should've been a little more clear about that. In fact, the only reason I have any contact with her is because of our sons. I'm not "going dark" per se, I just don't care to have anything to do with a WW that would break up her family because of her creepy friend. I thought I was a nice guy, but I had no problem saying "hasta la vista baby."

[doodler]

Doodler, your W has some huge issues to work on and maybe doesn't quite grasp that she does. I agree with Job that articles on ea or self help books will be ignored...for now.

ciluzen,

She does have huge issues, and I knew that coming into the marriage and I was okay with that. I helped many of her "alters" (many were children) through various issues. One of her alters had never been out trick-or-treating so I set up the house with Halloween decorations and we did trick-or-treating inside the house on Halloween-eve. That made her very happy.

I was willing to do almost anything to help her through her stuff; I always gave her lots of leeway in her behavior and allowed her plenty of room during her angry times. But hooking up with a creepy guy and adopting his family and leaving me and the boys behind was too much.

[kml]

Doodler,
Something you need to look at, in your own progress: why did you pick your wife? Why did you think a woman with a serious mental illness was an appropriate choice to be the mother of your children? Was there something familiar about that dynamic from your childhood? Or something about your self esteem that you thought this was the best you could do?

I'm not knocking you or your wife. But in order for you to make healthy choices in the future and not repeat this pattern, you have to understand what led you to ignore the red flags.

[doodler]

kml,

Over the past few months, I've thought a lot about my reasons for picking her. I really loved her as a person; she was smart beautiful and fun. She was my cave diving buddy. How many women will go cave diving with you?

She's actually amazingly competent given the DID (multiple personalities). (DID isn't always as debilitating as it's portrayed in movies and on TV.) It wasn't like she was a walking basket case.

However, I'm the one that "discovered" the DID. She'd originally been diagnosed as bipolar. I was under the illusion that she'd get better and that a lot of her "harder" traits would soften over time. In some respects that did happen, but as with any mental illness, things fluctuate and there can be relapses. I didn't really think that the DID would be problematic in the marriage because I was very willing to be there for her every step of the way. Also, and this is important, I had to assume that she had been sexually abused in her childhood because DID results from relatively early childhood abuse. But, my wife had no memory of the actual abuse; it was all repressed. Bits and pieces came out along the way, but I didn't know the true nature of the abuse until we'd been married at least ten years.

As a mother she was actually pretty good; not great, but good. However, one thing I did find out along the way is that she never really planned on being a mom until we'd gotten married. I know that she was very afraid that she wouldn't be able to have children because of the sexual abuse. I think ultimately she is very happy that she is a mom.

Lastly, yes, I'm certain my self esteem played a role as well. She was someone who was interested in me and I'd always been shy and never a "lady's man." For me it was awesome to have a woman who wanted me. I'd noticed some of her boundary issues early-on; I didn't understand that they were boundary issues at the time, I just knew I didn't like what I saw. However, most of the boundary issues got better over time (until she met the EA guy). Now, knowing that they were boundary issue, I probably wouldn't have married her.

I'm a different person now as well. I'm much less shy and I have much better self esteem. So that's played a role in the EA stuff; I'm not willing to be married to a wife with a boyfriend (even though it's not sexual).

Knowing what I know now, I would not marry her. I think she's a wonderful person with a lot of great qualities, but she's predisposed to ending up in an EA and I'm not going to be a third wheel.

[ciluzen]

I understand your feelings. There's a lot
Of issues that your W needs to deal with...you can'take do it for her. I respect your decision to focus on your kids and you. They will need the stability.
Are you seeing an IC? Although you seem to be doing well, it might be nice to have guidance just to deal with the severe enormity and complexity of what you, your wife, and the kids must mentally and emotionally deal with as this situation progresses and as the kids grow.

[Esame]

Ciluzen I'm so sorry about how you are feeling, you mentioned PTSD, and I think what you are going through is equally painful. I'm at the very first stages of H's MLC, and my world of has been turned upside down. And even though he has committed to our relationship and we are (allegedly) piecing, I cannot stop grieving the future I had dreamt of. I cannot offer any words of wisdom that would take the pain away, I just want to send you ((((hugs)))) and let you know that we are here for you...

[doodler]

ciluzen,

I assume you were addressing me with regard to IC. Yes, I'm seeing an IC. She was our MC until my wife quit going after the third session. The IC is a wonderful woman and I owe her a lot; I wouldn't be where I'm at without her.

[ciluzen]

[quote] This EA stuff is awful because so many people believe the friendship story and they don't realize that your spouse has literally replaced you with someone else. Yuck!

I'm dealing with that exact problem. It is literally driving me nuts. I actually don't know what other people in my former "social group" really believe was/is going on with regards to why my H and I are separated (not everyone knows he filed), but they were all good friends of Bubbles and are clients of H. I haven't spoken to them since he filed; no one has contacted me. So I really don't know their takes on it. But for YEARS it was very obvious that they were close friends and did things alone together. It really does hurt worse that NO ONE has stood up and said this is wrong. Including Bubble's H. They just all embrace H and abandoned me. I guess they have more to gain by staying friends with him...a great vacation home to go to and, for some, a steady job. Plus, he's a nice guy. As I said before, he fits the "nice guy syndrome" discussed on bluewave's thread to a t.

Sorry for the pity party. Its just the one thing I have a hard time understanding since I keep hearing how "nice" I am from everyone, including H. It is literally eating me up inside.

[doodler]

ciluzen,

I know EXACTLY where you're coming from. It's tough being the bad guy or gal when it's really the other spouse that left the marriage. My wife literally started spending more time with the EA friend's family than she did with her own family but had audacity to tell me that I'm just jealous. Um yeah, I'm jealous for good reason...

See there, you got me going.

Anyway, my wonderful MC confirmed that it's an EA and has been very supportive. I owe her a debt I can't repay.

[ciluzen]

I'm going to talk to my GP about recommending an IC for me this week. I've tried two different ones. The first was awful (interrupted, judged, kept telling me how controlling H was...duh. so am I!) And the second was a great listener and validator, but not much help beyond that. I need a smart, tough cookie IC who can help me move forward. I'm stubborn, I guess.

On another note, I'm at the vacation home on the river. It's beautiful and peaceful here. He was still here when I got here and wanted to show me the "good" coffee he got and that he had 1/2 and 1/2 (he knows I don'the do creamers). I also started to put my stuff in our bedroom and caught myself. I put myself in one of the other rooms and he grabbed my stuff and put it back in our room. Well, that was nice...it is the main floor master. We watched the basketball game and talked for a bit, then he left. He then called for basketball play by plays until he could get the game to come in on his car radio. See, I'm still good for something!

He left his supplements on the dresser. Dhea and l-argenine. Yep. I assume he's either trying to hold back the hands of time or worried about his mom's condition getting to him. Or both.

Anyway, GAL activities today. 10k at a nearby lake and then lunch with the meetup friends that are doing it with me at a lakeside resort. Hoping my sprained foot and toes are healed enough, lol. It's been two weeks, right?

[ciluzen]

Just journaling again so I can look back and learn from things, as I am apt to over-analyze everything. LOL.

My 10k was awesome! Beautiful day, great people, even ran into one of my little friends (she's twelve) who I didn't know was even doing the run. My foot was a little sore, but not bad. My meetup friends and I went to the craft fair that was near the lake afterward. I really enjoyed myself with them! Usually I go to those things alone and hustle through. This was much more fun, chatting with vendors and each other. Then lunch at the lakeside resort with great conversation.

Afterward, I went back to our river house and watched the dog playing in the water while I just sat in the sun and relaxed. H showed up as I was leaving and was preparing to trim the trees up. I asked if he wanted me to stay while he was using a ladder, and he seemed grateful for that. He also seemed to enjoy our dog's antics in the water. I left with the dog as soon as he finished.

Spent Memorial Day with my D25 and her H. Rode bikes to a local coffee shop with her H and then she and I walked to the beach near her home. She asked me to identify trees and plants she liked along the way since they are starting to landscape their new home. Had a long talk about my H...her feelings. It was nice to be her ear about the situation for a bit. We then had a BBQ at her in-laws...I found out I did pretty well at horse-shoes (first time I've played!). Nice group of people...I enjoy them more each time I see them.

I had to get home to sign some escrow papers with H. We did discuss the tractor situation again...he attempted to spew again and get angry... make it about me wanting money. Somehow I was able to be calm (too tired to react, I guess) and get him to understand that I just wanted to make sure he was doing what he wanted, since the money would actually help his situation more than mine. He is still very worried about getting rid of two vehicles that his dad wanted him to keep (one being the tractor)...and he still doesn't want them or know where to put them when the house sells. He got my point though, finally, I think. I let it go.

We talked more about the house sale and prep, what we would each want or not want, etc. I did throw in a quick, "I still wish you would change your mind" (too tired to DB well, but it was pretty weak) and he just ignored it. He then started talking about his office. We made eye contact the whole time as he talked about all of his tough or frustrating office issues and clients. Things he felt he could have done better. I listened and validated and asked questions. Until 11pm.

I'm starting to see that my new role in his life for now is to listen, to be that "therapist" that he can vent to rather than just a friend. He would never see any type of paid IC. Well...its good practice for what I'm going back to school for, at any rate. And I can detach a bit knowing that that is my new role. Hunh.

[job]

Your weekend sounded like a busy one...but fun times were included. I'm sure your 10K was awesome and hopefully your foot is better today.

I'm sorry about the house papers and it's funny how they want to keep things that they have no place to store them. Some want to keep old cars/tractors and others take away the steps to sheds and others take their children's desk chairs, etc. It's the memories that those little things provide to them. Unfortunately, the tractor will need to go because where is he going to keep it? Storage facilities can rack up some fees and the tractor needs to be maintained as well. He can always take photos of it for the future reference and sell it and take the money to help himself out of his financial situation...but he will have to come to that conclusion on his own. I'm hoping he'll listen to what you've said and will sell it.

I think you are very wise to listen to what he has to say. The more you listen, the more you'll discover what's going on in his mind.

Take care.

[doodler]

I'm going to talk to my GP about recommending an IC for me this week. I've tried two different ones. The first was awful (interrupted, judged, kept telling me how controlling H was...duh. so am I!) And the second was a great listener and validator, but not much help beyond that. I need a smart, tough cookie IC who can help me move forward. I'm stubborn, I guess.

ciluzen,

I had an IC when my wife's EA stuff started. I thought I had jealousy issues. I never cared for the IC because she seemed to like affirmations. Affirmations never really did anything for me. Then, I checked out her credentials; her Phd was in music and she specialized in music therapy. Oh well.

Finding a good MC was serendipitous for me (I'll spare you the details); she'd had 25 years of marriage counseling experience and she's a "straight shooter." My wife only went to three sessions with her but I continued on with her for individual counseling. If it weren't for her, I'd still be flailing around in limbo-land.

One of the first things she said to me was, "Look, this is how marriage works; if your wife has a friend that you don't like, then the friend has to go." (And vice versa, of course.)

I'm going to see her tomorrow and I can't wait because I have a lot of ground to cover.

ciluzen, I wish you luck in finding a good IC.

[inpain]

Hi Ciluzen! Firstly, thank you for your amazing post and advice on my thread, you are such a great strength buddy to me!

Love the sound of all your GAL activities over the weekend - hope your foot is OK! It's great that your D is able to open up to you about her feelings on H and the situation - good for you both I should think.

Your H still doesn't seem to be facing the reality of what he is doing does he? Expecting to be able to keep the tractor etc when he has nowhere for it to go. They just want to shove us away in a shoe box somewhere and life go on as it always did. We can only watch and wait and hope they wake up and smell the coffee in time!

Good luck with your search for an IC. I saw one a few years ago after H's EA/PA event no. 2 and she wasn't great. Kept wanting me to harp on about my childhood and my parents when I knew that it bore nothing to the situation I was in! My childhood did not make my H do what he did nor my reaction!

@Doodler - love your IC's explanation of how marriage works. My H needs to read it!

[melweb]

Cil--checking in on you. And catching up. Sounds like you have been busy as well. That is a good thing.

I hope you find a IC you like and trust. I have yet to make the plunge (again.) I did like my first one-- he really helped me DB in the early days, but he was $125/hr. YOUCH!! I would rather go "see" someone but in order for insurance to cover it I need a mental health diagnosis. Not that I don't qualify for depression or anxiety (or both), just not sure I want to go that route. I am still mulling it over.

I too wish your H would "change his mind." But like job said, he needs to figure it out on his own. My H said that the act of packing and walking out the door, while I was gone and S15 slept, was cathartic. He admitted it was cowardly, but it needed to be done. Your H seems to need more time.

[ciluzen]

Hey all! My foot seems fine, surprisingly. Opted to not go to my Krav Maga class, though.
Haven't talked to my doc about IC yet, as he is on vacation still. But I will. I still feel it is necessary, especially since I'm getting closer to being D and trying to keep to my promise to myself to move forward while keeping the door cracked open.

Mel, that'sounds interesting what you said about leaving being cathartic for your H. Can you explain more?

My H and I spoke again in person on Monday...we had escrow papers to send in. Again we spoke more of what we each needed in the house. And then had a discussion the next day by phone about things we needed to do before the close of the house. We spoke about his obnoxious L and I actually saw old, self assured H pop out. It was nice to see him come to the conclusion that he was letting her do things he didn't want...and actually say he needed to tell her how things were going to go down and that he just needed her to make it legal. Wishy washy insecure new H was gone for the moment. I know he'll be back though. This is a long road.

[doodler]

ciluzen,

I saw my IC on Wednesday; it's always nice to talk with her because she's so supportive. If you find an IC that you like, I think it'll make a huge difference as you move forward.

I don't have the words to say how much appreciate my IC. Without her, I think I'd still be flailing around and wondering what I should do next. She's given me a lot of strength and bolstered my confidence. Definitely try to find a good IC.

[inpain]

Hi Ciluzen, just checking in to see how you're doing. Did you find an IC? Hope you're doing as well as can be expected my friend.

[Esame]

Hi Ciluzen,

I hope your foot is better.

I was reading your earlier post and you mention that you seem to be becoming your H's therapist. Did he confide to you in the past or is that a new thing? It sounds so strange to me, but then again nothing should surprise us any more. My H is reporting all his health ailments to me on a daily (if not hourly) basis, but I cannot for the life of me remember if it is something he did in the past or not. And it's not because I was not paying attention but I do have pretty poor memory. Not really complaining about my bad memory though, as it is a blessing in disguise. Some times I think if I remembered everything I would go mad. Writing this just now I realised that maybe my bad memory is some sort of self protecting mechanism or something?

Anyway, enough about me, I hope you are doing well.

And many many thanks for your inspirational reply to my thread, I really appreciate it.

[ciluzen]

Hey Dood, IP, and Esame. Thanks so much for checking in on me. I wish I could offer better support back. I keep trying to write an update or post on people's threads, but...just having a hard time getting thoughts and feelings together right now. So much is happening at once and I'm a bit overwhelmed. I'll try to organize a bit here.

1) H and I continue to talk as "friends" when he calls me about one thing or another or when he comes to do things at the house. He has been packing up the garage and shop but seems to have a hard time touching the stuff in the house. He has been telling me how amazing I have been about getting house and grounds taken care of and packed. Keeps saying he "owes me" and brings me little things. He goes to our vacation property a lot now. Every weekend night.

2) I passed my math placement test enough to have tested out of college algebra. I am now signed up for my pre-req classes which start in July. I'll be applying for my masters program this fall to start next June (if accepted).

3)I get keys to my apartment Friday and "big move day" is Saturday (heavy stuff). I don't want H's help, though he offered. But I am a little short on strong people with pickup trucks to do lifting...missing the so called friends that I've helped move often over the years. Yeah, I'm a bit bitter, tired and grumpy.

4)My L sent me an e-mail yesterday that she was sending H's L. Apparently my L had tried to update H's L mid-May as to our house sitch (it sold) and set up a date for mediation #2 (we had agreed to meet in July). H's L never responded so she sent the second email. I told her that was fine, but that we should not be aggressively pursuing this. I had told H early on that I would only effort working on M and if he wanted a D it was all on him. I emphasized this with my L. H has disclosed that he has not spoken with his L because he owes her money.

5) My mom, who has been calling 2x a day, has now broached the subject of moving 1500 miles away from her friends, my siblings (including my older sis who is in charge of her health care), and her other grand kids as well as her doctors to be near me. I understand but don't think its a good idea and, selfishly, I just don't think I can handle her or anyone else being dependent on me right now. Too much to think about.

So there's the update. Just journaling to see it in black and white. There's so much more, but at least I can see some of the chaos in my head and maybe respond to the questions asked by you all. My foot is ok, I haven't called my doc for an IC recommendation, but I'm just putting one foot in front of the other. I'll try to write better tonight. It all just looks...selfish and not expressed well right now. But its an update. Meh.

[job]

Congratulations on passing your math placement test. It's a good first step and I know you'll ace the Masters Program.

I'm glad you are getting the keys to your apartment this Friday. Finally, you can begin moving some of your belongings in. I'm sorry that some of the friends has kind of disappeared on you...it always seems to be the way things work out.

I agree w/you...your mom needs to stay put. You do not need any additional stressors at this time.

Please take care of yourself and good luck w/the move!

[Esame]

Congrats on passing your test! Ang best of luck with the application for the masters. I cannot remember what your specialism is, mine is Further Education so if you need any help let me know.

Maybe you can use the masters and your academic commitments as an excuse to deter your mum from moving near you, just a thought really.

I know what you mean about the chaos in your head, I feel the same way... Good luck with the move too, hopefully after it is all done you can get some order in your life...

[doodler]

ciluzen,

Congratulations on the placement test!

Reading about that makes me want to go back to school. I loved college. I've got two bachelors degrees and a masters degree, and if it weren't for needing financial security, I think I would've been a professional student.

I had an IC session yesterday and I mentioned you. I told my therapist that I'd finally found a case that has a lot of similarities to mine (EA with a "special friend" and friend's spouse seems to be accepting of the EA).

Anyway, it sounds like you're super-busy. I hope you'll have an opportunity to relax and unwind sometime in the near future.

[Esame]

I wish I could offer better support back. I keep trying to write an update or post on people's threads, but...just having a hard time getting thoughts and feelings together right now. So much is happening at once and I'm a bit overwhelmed. I'll try to organize a bit here.

By the way, I forgot to mention on my last post (my head is all over the place too) that you don't have to try to support any of us, you do that anyway! No one expects help, we are all in this pot (to avoid using a word that will be censored) together. We all struggle and we all try to help each other. Some people have the clarity to write London thoughtful posts, some of us just pop in for a quick word. You have helped me (and others I'm sure) a lot, I really appreciate it. (((Ciluzen)))

[ciluzen]

Thanks for the support and hugs, guys. Much needed and appreciated! Hugs and good vibes right back to you all!

Esame, when I started college my goal was to go to med school and become a psychiatrist. I got sidetracked with my "independence" (parties, friends and exploration of life...euphemisms, all) and also had an artist/visiting prof urge me to switch to an art major. My young ego felt compelled to listen without thinking it through. But I've never lost that interest in how the mind works. I've been in education, specifically art and also dealing with special needs (my "real" job has me working with teens with autism), but now want to get back to psychology. I will pursue a Masters in Marriage and Family Therapy.

I'm putting my mother's issues on the back burner. I need to discuss this further with my older sis. But yes, I just don't feel that I can deal with my mom's needs right now.

Dood, our cases are somewhat similar. I'm sure there are others, too. In fact I know there are. People are strange...

I'm happy your IC is so helpful. I plan on trying to find one as soon as I'm done with the whole house to apartment move. Tonight I get keys, moving in tomorrow (and slowly this week), garage sale next Saturday, and closing on house sale the week after. Then a bit of down time (except for unpacking) until classes start in July.

Its all very do-able.

Job, thanks for checking in on me. I am taking care of me. Went out with my running group (still walking with foot issue) last night and a great dinner at a favorite restaurant...outside people watching. Reached out to a new friend I'm concerned about on the phone. Its all good. I plan on major self-care once the house closes. Hiking, doc appointments, friend time, and one big pampering session thanks to my mom's Christmas gift to me (spa gift certificate).

I'm good. First post not mentioning H (oops! I just did.)

[doodler]

I'm happy your IC is so helpful. I plan on trying to find one as soon as I'm done with the whole house to apartment move. Tonight I get keys, moving in tomorrow (and slowly this week), garage sale next Saturday, and closing on house sale the week after. Then a bit of down time (except for unpacking) until classes start in July.

Just a note regarding my IC: she was originally my MC. I've mentioned that before, but I don't think that I mentioned that, at first, I thought she was a not-so-good therapist. The first time my wife and I saw her, things went relatively well. The second time, not so well. The third time was horrendous (there's much longer story behind it). After that, I though that maybe I'd made a big mistake.

During the MC counseling, I'd gone to a couple of IC sessions with her as well. I continued on with IC after the MC melt-down because she already knew the marital background (i.e. she was someone to talk to). After having about five IC sessions with her, I realized she knew exactly what she was doing. In fact, she knows nothing about DB, but she essentially takes the same approach.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, if it weren't for her, I'd still be flailing around with regard to friendship or EA. But look at me now, I'm trying to start a scuffle with the OM. (That's not her fault.)

The point I'm making is that my IC is very good, I just didn't realize that at the start because she was already stirring the hornets nest.

[Sotto]

Best of luck with the move my friend and I'm glad to read you will fulfil some educational dreams too xx

[job]

Please start a new thread.

[ciluzen]

New Thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2684860&#Post2684860