Why is Raven black?

[kml]

Renting is a good idea. Home buying should never be rushed, plus you don't know how your finances are going to look once all is said and done with the divorce. Also, you can get much better deals on a house if you aren't under time pressure to buy; take your time.

I lived with my mom for 2 years while going through my divorce. It was during the real estate crash and since I'm self-employed, the lenders all wanted to see a year's worth of alimony checks to qualify me.

It worked out well, because I had a lot of time to look at houses and think about what I needed, and when I finally found the house I wanted, I was able to make a non-contingent offer, I was pre-qualified, and I could be totally flexible about closing time. I got a good deal that meets all of my needs and I still love it.

[ciluzen]

Thank you all for the advice and support. I did find an apartment. They haven't even finished building it, its so new. Because of that I got a Grand Opening Discount of about 70% off first months rent. Pet friendly, near hiking and walking distance to a state park, and across the street from grocery store and such. Great suburban neighborhood, and a great view with trees and mountains. I can move in after June 10. Perfect!

On another note, I had a strange experience with H. I can chalk it up to a step forward for him, if not for R. I think the former is more important right now.
We were discussing scheduling and I brought up things that needed to be done before I moved and our house needed to be vacated. One of our assets is a tractor neither of us needs, but we had agreed to sell to help my moving costs and give him some money for whatever. We had a semi-joking conversation about how many people were interested in it or coveting it. He finally came out and said he wasn't going to sell it. I was shocked, as that was our agreement. I reacted...very upset. Lost control, said things I shouldn't have...not a finer moment. It affected me as I was trying to coach a soccer tournament later...I had to leave my team and call my daughter to talk me down (psych major with anxiety-a good source for that) I was so shaken. I could not reconcile that man with my old H at all...first MAJOR MLC move (everything else was pale). With all of his financial woes, both of us living in an apartment, why on earth would he keep a TRACTOR?!

When I came home, H was in the driveway getting ready to leave (he had worked on something in the yard). I was very cold to him as he tried to tell me the nice things he did that day for me while I was gone. I thanked him and could not make eye contact except to glare a bit, which makes me uncomfortable because...well...I'm not that way. He left quickly and neither of us said goodbye.

So here was my strange thing. I chose to call him later. I told him, I'm very upset with you. I can't trust your word anymore. He tried to tell me that he would bring the tractor home (it was at a friend's house)and then I could sell it for whatever I wanted and to whomever I wanted. He tried to tell me he would go to the office and figure out how much money he had given me, etc, etc. to show me how generous he was...I cut him off. I will not sell it, this is not about the money, it never was. I understand your stress about money and expenses. That's why your tractor decision makes NO SENSE to me. It is about you making decisions and not communicating your thought process. I FINALLY got through.

He explained, and apologized for being a wimp, but his father told him he could not sell the tractor (he "gifted" us money for half of it) because he "owned half". He said the same about another item. Ahhhh...controlling daddy issue is coming to a head. I sooo wanted to remind him of what a gift was, and that he is 52 years old, and that his dad is 80 and will probably never see the tractor again, and that he has never used it...

Instead I encouraged him to talk about it. I told him I understood how difficult it is to go against a parent, how that could create a lot of stress for him and confusion on what the "right" thing to do is. Validate, validate, support, support. His feelings of being a failure, his fears of going against his dad. I told him I spent more on an apartment because I had to get a 2 bedroom on the ground floor in case my mom came to visit. 12 mos at a higher price "just in case" my 80 year old mother chose to fly up here for a week. We sort of laughed about that. And about his dad bouncing around on an uncomfortable tractor uselessly driving it up and down the driveway at the vacation home (it would ruin the lawn).

There was a bit of R talk in there, me saying it was a workable relationship, yada yada, but keeping it light. He delved more into how he thinks I would be happier without him...he came closer to his (I believe) root feeling that no one could possibly love/like him, but shied away after a brief glimpse. I validated his feelings anyway, and told him maybe his fear of hurting his dad was bigger than he thought. And maybe his dad was actually more reasonable than he feared. Sometimes he just says stuff to say stuff. Maybe you can throw your fears aside and reason with him and actually communicate your reasons for wanting to sell it? He agreed and said, yeah. He is a reasonable man.

I told him you are not a "failure" in your parents eyes just because you feel you have failed. I repeated that I know he is worth more than anyone out there. That he is a good person inside. But further R talk was out. He kept changing the subject. But he is thinking about his issues. I can see his cogs moving and the light in his eyes. R may not happen, but he is dealing with his fears. And for that, I could sleep a bit last night.

[ciluzen]

So, a lot has been happening and, at the same time, not much at all.

I boxed up so much stuff to get the house ready to show, that I feel there isn't a whole lot other than my furniture and clothing and things that will move with me to box up. I could be deluding myself, but I have some time before I move and a bit of time after. The rest is stuff that H wanted or needs for him to deal with (I refuse to pack for him).

I've been following and posting on Bluwave's thread over in newcomer's lately. She had an H that seemed to have had an MLC (maybe) that came back. The discussions on there have been interesting, especially about "nice guy syndrome".

When we here talk about how our MLCers often have depression and are dealing with childhood issues that haunt them, if they have always been a "nice guy" and their MLC behavior still shows them trying to be nice while acting like an alien has stolen their body, you may have a Mr. Nice Guy situation.

After reading up on it, my H fits EVERY SINGLE TRAIT. Not just the "nice" parts, but the not-so-nice traits. Because a "nice guy" isn't really so nice. They feel that they need to mask the real them by hiding feelings, traits and behaviors that they believe are not ok. Dishonesty and convincing themselves of a "new" set of rules dependent upon their wants (compartmentalizing) as well as stuffing feelings which eventually erupts in bizarre behavior or emotional explosions are some of those traits. It is information that I think is more beneficial for the H to understand about themselves to help them heal, but may be good for the W to understand if she is able to truth dart a bit. I don't want to spend time re-writing what's been said, but its worth a look.

I continue to encourage H to use me as a "friend" to vent or talk to when he can. It seems to help him to organize his thoughts. And share. I don't think he really shares the deeper thoughts with others. Maybe I'm wrong. But I really don't think so. And I don't feel I can flat out tell him my ideas on his daddy and mommy issues, or even his "nice guy" issues and how they might have had an effect on his self image or our R. But I can listen. I can validate. And once in awhile I can ask a question that might cause him to think in those directions.

Other than that, I'm moving forward. I get to take a placement exam this morning to place into one of my pre-req classes and am already signed up for the other. I'm getting excited about moving into my apartment (or trying to), and just kind of coasting a bit right now.

[Esame]

Sounds like you are being a really good friend to him, you are doing such a great job considering how things are between you two.

I also tried to read on the Mr Nice Guy Syndrome, but I cannot concentrate at the moment. I will try again though, it sounds really interesting.

[2Times2Many]

Glad to hear you're getting excited about the new apartment. It's a lot of work, but moving to a new place always felt like a "new beginning" to me with a lot of anticipation and hopes about how life would be different and new.

It sounds like your H is comfortable talking and sharing with you. I think that's a good sign and you're doing a good job of just being a friend who listens.

Hope your placement exam went well.

[ciluzen]

Placement exam went well...on to statistics class!

Still trying to move forward, but everything reminds me of H or our sitch. It's like I stretch out in a new direction and something (a song on the radio, a comment, a restaurant name, anything) snaps me back to the reality that I'm no longer in the same relationship with him.

It is evolving, but it's like PTSD, I still find myself angrily crying and explaining to the mirror why I'm mad or hurt.

This weekend I'm doing a 10k near hour vacation home. I asked (I asked!) If I could spend the night there so I wouldn't have to drive so far in the early morning. I explained I didn't mind if others were there, but if "Bubbles" was there I wouldn't. His response? "Just to sleep there, right? I'll let you know what the plan is."

It still makes me mad that I'very lost everything and have to create a whole new life, new job, new home, new friends, etc and nothing really changes for Bubbles and her family and all H loses is me and the home. Even my kids are losing a lot. I cry "unfair"! But it is what is I guess.

I'll just have to pull my big girl panties up and keep learning and living. Bluhhhh.

[doodler]

Yeah, me neither. As I said, we really don't get to know another person's perspective unless they tell us. Who knows what the wife thinks she's accomplishing by pushing them together. If she really is pushing on purpose, she obviously has a reason. Does she believe they are having an EA?

ciluzen,

I don't know if my wife's EA friend's wife (I'll call her Fanny) believe's they are having an EA, but I don't think she does. My wife has told me that she's talked to Fanny about my believing that it's an EA, but that doesn't mean much because my wife knows how to carefully parse her words.

Fanny calls my wife and her husband "twins." Physically they couldn't be more different, and from my perspective, they're very different in personality, disposition and level of intelligence. My wife's EA friend (aka Dick) is a bit of a dull boy.

As an example of something Fanny would do, she would "front-run" for her husband. When Dick started calling my wife at home, I didn't care for that and I let my wife know that I didn't like it. So, Dick stopped calling and Fanny started calling; my wife would talk to Fanny for a minute or two and then Fanny would pass the phone to Dick and he'd talk to my wife for however long they wanted to talk. I've always thought that was very weird. Fanny has done a number of things like that; it's almost as if she wants her hubby to go to the OW (unfortunately it's my wife).

My wife is the victim of childhood sexual abuse and supposedly her EA friend and his wife are victims of childhood sexual abuse as well. People that have been sexually abused early in life tend to have poor boundaries and are often victims of rape later in life (my wife is in that category).

When my wife first hooked up with Dick I was supportive of the friendship because he had (supposedly) first had experience with the kind of abuse she suffered and could offer her support. But, there was another woman where Dick worked (which was where my wife worked) that was also the victim of child sexual abuse and evidently Dick and that woman where deep into sex talk. Eventually things exploded at work (it's a much longer story); when I heard about that, it raised a huge red flag and I started thinking of Dick a bit differently.

Just for the record, Dick is a 61 year old grandfather; he's fat and frumpy. I don't know what he's got, but the abused women seem to like him.

Early this year, my wife and I went to MC and my wife only made it to three session (I had to beg her to go to the third session). I started going to the MC by myself and she said that my wife was absolutely in an EA with Dick. I asked her why Dick's wife didn't seem to mind and she just said, "Some women are like that."

There's a lot more to the story, but I'll stop there for now.

Thank you for all of your feedback, it's greatly appreciated.

[doodler]

ciluzen,

I was just reading some of your old posts; there seems to be many similarities in our respective situations. Does you husband think he's in an inappropriate relationship with Bubbles? Does Bubbles think she's in an inappropriate relationship with your husband?

[kml]

Doodler - I read over your threads. Have you noticed, your wife was abused by a babysitter and her boyfriend, and now she's involved with this creepy guy AND his wife? Sounds like she is recreating on some sick level the dysfunction that happened to her as a child.

This is more common than you'd think. My ex was traumatized by his mother's divorcing his father when he was 17 - then he left when OUR youngest son was 17. Not a coincidence, I think.

[ciluzen]

Coincidences, especially in the MLC world, are probably not just coincidences. We all long to go back in a time machine once in awhile or shout "Do-over!" I think that is a big part of some of these unexplainable situations.

I agree, kml, with your theory about Doodler's wife. We also see those who were molested becoming the molester to recreate the situation, but while being the one in control this time around.

I'm sure, Doodler, in your W's mind she has found someone who "understands" her and what she's gone through. He may seem "safe" to her because he is more fatherly or grandfatherly and not someone she is physically attracted to. Desperate minds can convince themselves of anything. She may have chosen him over you because you couldn't possibly understand her like he does (in her mind) and therefore she needs him more than you, right now. But what are HIS intentions? How long will this last? She has some work to do, but its almost impossible for us to be the ones to convince them they might need a pro to step in.

As for me, I don't know what Bubbles thinks. I'm debating on confronting her with how I feel about her behavior and how much damage it caused in my relationship. She has issues from her childhood and I truly feel that she doesn't know the extent of her part in this. I feel the need to confront her for my own sake even though I don't speak to her anymore.

And yes, it takes two to tango. My H knows how I felt about it, but his reply is that "nothing happened". Physical or not, his nothing is different from my nothing. He may think it was inappropriate and feel horrible or he may be downplaying it. I can no longer talk to him about that (at this time); it is "stuffed". I "beat him up" over it far too much before I learned how to communicate better. Now I'm just trying to rebuild his trust in me not beating him up. Hence the listening, validating, and tiny truth darts or (hopefully) thought provoking questions here and there. Sometimes that's all you can do. It may work for you, too, Doodler. But you know more about that R since you are in it.

I plan on continuing to stand for my marriage even after the D. I will still move on with my life and probably have much less contact with H, but as I've said before...that door is still cracked open. I am making sure that I'm here to talk to if he needs because I still think he's worth it. Even he sees himself as a failure (his words).