Bumping Elbows with MLC

[HaWho]

Link to my old thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2648551#Post2648551

Ok, I am back to seeing familiar stuff in h. Kind of feels like I am playing Hide-n-Seek with MLC. After unknowingly driving on an expired license for several weeks, h renewed it. It came in the mail a few days ago. H said (from the dorm room) very loud: "wow! I look good! I am a very good looking 47 year old."

I think he was joking but not really. I think he is trying to remind me how lucky I am?!? He has, on several occasions told me how well he is aging in comparison to his counterparts. Which is kinda funny given that he is a man-child!! I didn't say a word as, he is in fact attractive but has much interior work to do to match the exterior.

Then he looks at his old license and says: "I haven't changed much! But I don't look as good in the old picture--must've been a bad day." (All VERY loud so clearly this is all for my sake. And kind of funny that if he looked bad, it must've been just a bad day.). Actually, I saw his old license and he had shark eyes in the photo, helping me narrow down when this all started for him. I am curious to see the new photo and if he has Jaws eyes there, too.

He has spewed a little. Yesterday he came into the kitchen and tried to pick a fight over a dirty skillet. I stayed calm and diffused the bomb he was lighting. It is something I would have reacted to pre-BD about which I now care nothing.

Today, more of the same old spew. He made a snide PA comment to me via text about an old M issue. I took some time and thought it over vs. reacting. I told him I was sorry he feels that way but I also corrected him, kindly, on something he assumed. I stood up for myself in a logical fashion vs. reacting.

He wrote back and said "on a different note" and asked what the sleeping arrangements will be while my family visits. I know he is worried about appearances. He asks what the plan is so that our private life is not so public. I tell him that this is his home and I want him to be as comfortable as possible. So, I say whatever reason he wants to give as why he sleeps downstairs is fine by me. He writes back and asks where everyone else will sleep. I have already worked all the logistics out so I tell him.

So, this is a 180 for me. I have planned and acted vs. waiting and reacting. Also, he now knows I will not be sleeping with him to keep up appearances. I have let him know it is up to him to make up the reason why he is down there. I could care less. He can say his blow-up doll is more comfortable down there, for all I care. (As far as I know, he does not have one, LOL!)

He surely will see the difference as usually I am a "go with the flow" kind of person. In the past I would have kept up appearances. But I know I don't want to do that anymore. I would rather deal with the vocal speculation about the state of my marriage than be a phony to myself.

And so, in this instance I feel I have shoved MLC out of my way.

[job]

I had a good chuckle over his driver's license photo. You do realize that he was hinting quite loudly for you to say something about his appearance? Poor child, he just doesn't get it...does he?

I think you handled the situation w/the skillet, as well as the sleeping arrangements quite well. Now, it will be interesting to say the least as to what he uses as an excuse for being down in the dorm room.

Keep up the good work.

[HaWho]

Oh, Job, I know perfectly well that he wanted me to fawn, drool and trip all over him! I want to buy him one of those miner's caps and add a sideways mirror to it so he can just glance at himself all day long!! He can snap on the light and see himself in the dark, too.

Want to really see how biased he is?

We saw the newest Star Wars when it was released. As discussed ad nauseam, h is obsessed by aging. So he walks out and says: "Harrison Ford looks great! But Carrie Fisher, geez!"

And I wonder if we even saw the same movie?!? Harrison Ford looks like a raisin and h makes it sound like he hasn't aged one bit?!? Don't get me wrong, I think Harrison Ford looks great and I appreciate the fact that he HAS aged. Clearly, Carrie Fisher has had work done and the poor thing probably lives under a ridiculous double standard. Harrison Ford is "sexy" for letting himself age and Carrie Fisher would be an old hag if she aged. Plus, she may appear older because people just saw her all of a sudden, whereas Harrison Ford has had a new movie every second for the last 20 years. So, his aging has crept up on us.

As for the dorm room, he's trying to get out of being here at all when family comes. This makes sense as he loves to run from reality and his problems. I predict he will say: "I will leave to give you all adequate space." To which I will answer: "that room is so filthy no amount of fumigation will have me housing anyone in there. The devil deserves better."

Speaking of which, the stench from the bathroom is vile! A few days ago, we were all talking about someone at dinner and joking about torture. I said to h "if you really want to torture someone, just house him/her in your room and bathroom." He looked shocked. He said to me: "it smells?" I said: "of course!" I noticed he opened windows that day. Must be his spring freshening method.

Oh and I complimented the kids for cleaning their bathroom so well. H said: "they cleaned again?!?" He was completely incredulous. I said: "most people clean their bathroom every week." He looked sheepish, took his hand and made a funny yapping, "yeah yeah" motion. But now, he is on the defensive: hence he pointed out the dirty skillet to assert his cleanliness. Too funny!

And tell me if this sounds familiar? Also recently overheard about the dog who is 4 yrs. old: "this is the best year for the dog. Best he will ever have! Look how powerful he is! He has no illness and look at how handsome he looks. He will never look this good again. Look at his face? Best it will ever look. He is powerful." Ugh, not this again . . . wonder if he will take the dog for Botox in a few years?!?

Maybe he is stuck in some crazy 8 shaped MLC loop?

[job]

Okay, I think your h needs to have his eyes checked. Harrison Ford has aged quite a bit and so has Carrie Fisher. In fact, all of the stars that returned for that movie have aged.

As for your dog's age...well, he really was his best age at 1 or 2.

BTW, you need to tell him that age is just a number and it's what you do w/your life that counts. Now, that will get him good!

[HaWho]

Must be a case of "MLC vision" as, trust me, he does not look the same in this license photo as his last one. Nor do I!!

So, as for sleeping arrangements, he will say he is not sleeping well, up and down a lot and he doesn't want to wake us. Then he wanted to rearrange the sleeping arrangements and give the guests my master suite?!? He says it is nicer + then my clothes can be moved to that closet and it isn't so weird that half the clothes are missing from the u

I write back and say: "don't worry, I'll take care of things. They are not here to judge me, they are here to visit and that they take me faults and all." And this is true. My sisters are my best friends and they know very fault I have!! Years ago, I bought them both tea towels that said: "you will always be my best friend . . . you know too much." LOL!!

He writes back and says he is worried about the kids. That this is weird enough without outside eyes. He says he is trying at every turn to minimize the impact on them.

I don't even know how to respond to that hogwash.

[HaWho]

* accidentally hit "submit - "

Up above it should be: half his clothes are missing from the upstairs closet.

And now he is worried about the impact of all this on the kids?!? Probably just for keeping up appearances.

It's REALLY hard not to ping him about his heavy duty replay days!!

[Babe]

HaWho, I learned from your previous thread - new comer but not so new. My husband said the same thing as what your husband said, where did they get the same script (laugh)? The difference is my husband eventually moved out and he had both emotional and physical affairs with two 'young' women.

One year before bomb dropped; he worried about losing hair, gaining weight. He spent more and more time looking at himself in the mirror everyday. That time I though his action was funny, I did not know he's in his midlife and it becomes a crisis...

After bomb dropped, I started searching the knowledge of midlife crisis, I knew that his has a family that is not functionally well, I did not know it was that bad. Last year I found his father left home to live with a woman for years when he was young. His mother was always yelling.

Husband told me that he wanted to leave home when he was only ten or twelve years at age. I guess I did not pay enough attention when I heard about his story the time we got married.

I'm grateful for great help received from Job, Cadet, HB and from the LBS with this Forum. With all the information I'm standing.


H : 40
Me : 42
kids : 0
Married 9 years
BD/verified ow : Sep. 2014
Moved out : June 2015
he enjoy hanging with young people
he had hair style(outfit) changed
he had all his money spent, drank a lot (he never like alcohol)
he blames me for everything
he came from an emotional polluted family, parents fought all the time.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, I think MLCers want to be seen as the good guy, and they don't want their choices to be laid out for others to scrutinise and perhaps judge. He is panicking and hoping you'll come to an arrangement which will minimise this aspect from your family.

I would just go with whatever seems most comfortable for everyone and not be too swayed by his influence. Let them take you as they find you and think what they will.

Take care xx

[mleigh4]

I love how he opened the window intead of actually cleaning the room. Lol! He is really fixated on age.

Good for you being honest and leaving the sleeping arrangement alone. I would absolutely do the same and figure, let him explain it.

Interesting that he is all of a sudden worried about he impact on the kids. This all has him spinning a bit, huh? When does your family come in?

[HaWho]

Hi Babe - nice to hear from you. I understand exactly what you mean that those first signs of MLC are worthy of light teasing.

Sotto - I know he wants to keep up appearances to the guests who are coming. If I know him, he will try again to convince me to re-arrange the accommodations so that it's not so obvious that he moved downstairs. I want everyone to feel as comfortable as possible. But I need to feel comfortable in my own space, too. And that's more important to me than keeping up appearances. (If we were going to keep up appearances for anyone, we should have done it for these kids.)

I know enough about his childhood to see that he has re-created it in our own home. He made that dorm room back into his child childhood bedroom. And, at the start of replay, he made comments here and there that likened our home to his childhood home. The two houses couldn't be more different but he kept trying to mold this one into that one. I know it must sound nuts, but I swear it's true.

Here's an example. When my youngest started school, I began to re-build a life for me. I started playing tennis again, began working part-time, etc. So, I wasn't home as often. He started to make comments that the house was "cold" and "empty feeling." His mother was completely MIA in his childhood; he was alone at home for too long and at too young of an age. Now I see he was projecting.

And though we are polar opposites he kept trying to make me his mother. On several occasions he intimated that I was a bad mom because a tennis match ran over and I was home later than expected (like by 30 minutes, not by two days). I know now he wasn't talking to me, he was talking to his mom; but I didn't catch it then. I didn't validate at all through that as it was so bizarre to me. Now, it all makes sense.

He kept saying the same things about our home that he said about his childhood home. Just noting if for those who come after me and live with the MLCer.

Mleigh - guests come early May.

[Ginger1]

HaWho, I always do commend you on what you deal with. I will always remind you to be aware of when it has a negative effect on you.

I was dating a man of your ex's age (I'm 35). W ended things recently and I realize he is in a form of MLC. Indecisive, changing mind every second, wanting the world but, but on his terms only with no work. Saying in one breath he loves me and discusses our future and in that same breath he doesn't want an R. It made me crazy. And hurt because I really cared for him and I couldn't tell what was real or fake anymore. I was not invested as all of you were as it was a 6 month long R. I know you all are invested via marriage and kids and I just give you all props for what you deal with, because I was beginning to think I was the one beginning to lose my mind. It's good to see you can separate reality from fiction (your H obviously cannot).

I hope your H gets some professional help one day. he needs to. work through his childhood stuff. Again, kudos to your never ending patience and sense of humor

[HaWho]

Ginger - thanks for the reminder and the kind words.

Oh, I can see how you could've thought you were going crazy with all this man's confusion. Best thing you did was split! Knowing what I know now, I would tell you to excuse yourself to the restroom, crawl out the window, throw yourself into the dumpster and RUN!

[HaWho]

Geez- I should probably take my own advice.

[BrightFuture]

Oh no… You are not going to jump through the bathroom window (unless you are stuck in his dorm room bathroom…), and throw yourself into the dumpster… I hope…

These projections things are really bizarre, aren’t they? I’m still trying to wrap my head around this whole MLC thing. Your H seems to be a poster child for this. I had a lot of issues in my childhood, and I did some damaging things in my marriage, because I was a product of my upbringing. But, I still don’t understand to the full degree how MLC can affect people’s brains so much that they don’t understand how strange their behavior is.

I completely agree with you on your plans for sleeping arrangements for your guests. YOU need to feel comfortable. It could be very exhausting to maintain the appearance of a happy family. Plus, you kids know that it is not the case anyway. I hope everything works out for your and your kid’s benefit, as much as possible. Your H can deal with his uncomfortable feelings on his own. After all, it is part of his journey. He needs to feel it 100%. There is no other way around this. Do what is best for you, HaWho. I know you have this incredible strength in you. You can do it! And enjoy the company at the same time!

Oh, and if you need to escape the scene at any time, let me know… Like I said, I always have a room available.

[HaWho]

Hi Bright - nice to hear from you and thanks for the kind offer.

Well, received a glimpse into h's thinking today. I know it is just a snapshot of this moment in time, but it was sobering.

We stumbled onto talking about his father, who has always walked away from anything he did not want to do. He cheated/walked out on his first wife (h's mother), was a deadbeat dad, married OW, cheated on OW, is still married to OW but lives with another OW # ?.

Pre-BD h loathed this kind of behavior/selfishness. This morning? He tells me he admires his father for living the life his father wants to lead/being authentic to who he is. He says his father wanted to be a lazy slob and he lived that way. (Like FIL is some sort of pioneer blazing some amazing path.)

I listened a lot. But geez, how can any objective person admire that? I actually felt a bit sick over it all. I said, quietly, that I pity his dad. I said to h: "can't you see that he got stuck somewhere and never really grew up?"

Later he told the kids that he wished he had had 5 sons. That as hard as it was when the kids were young, that he would want to have 3 more like them. S12 joked that they would drive him crazy. I chimed in that then he really never would leave his room.

I feel pretty bummed out. I am trying to remember not to believe anything they say. Going to walk with S12 and then grab lunch. We invited h along. He opted to go for a walk by himself. Need to shake this off.

[CaliGuy]

HW

About all you can do when/if they share is just listen .... careful when interjecting the "can't you see that he got stuck somewhere and never really grew up?" line as 1. He really CAN'T see that ... his brain is a bowl of wet noodles sitting on the foggy bank of a river he dare not cross yet. 2. He may very well defend his father, see you are criticizing him and have another reason to firm up the enemy label at a later date.

I would just see it for what it is .. he is thinking about stuff, possibly justifying his behavior by admiring now how his own father set the stage for him to act this way ... he has a reason now and most likely might feel relieved because what normal person would come off the rails as he did right?

[2Times2Many]

HaWho - don't let what he said get you down. Like Cali said, he's trying to justify his own behavior.

My h was the same way before MLC. We worked in a large organization with quite a few guys (and women) who ran around on their spouses. H thought they were the scum of the earth. I wonder what he'd say about them now?

Anyway, it sounds like your h is looking around for an example or two that reflects his own behavior so he can say to himself that what he's doing is ok since others have done the same. My h does that. (I actually told him once that I thought the culture over there had corrupted his morals.)

It's the MLC talking. It's an attempt to soothe the guilt. Don't let it rattle you.

[Sotto]

Soon before BD my H told me about a colleague of his. He was a serial cheater and he and his W separated multiple times. Finally, they are together again long term and living in an open R. The thing was, H told me this story as though - isn't that a great outcome for everyone??

[Babe]

' believe none of what he says and 50% what he does '
I keep this in my mind always !

Agree with what Cali said point 1 and 2.
There's no way to have rational conversation with MLCer when they're in their dark tunnel... whatever I said, husband would take it as I'm critisizing with enimosity.

[mleigh4]

I agree with others. After BD, my H too was giving me examples of his new friends who had split and were "happier". He also mentioned his dad, who has only had one brief serious R since H mom left him over 20 years ago, and said how lucky he is to be alone and able to do what he wants when he wants.

Meanwhile, his dad has told us multiple times he wishes he could find someone to share life with, but I guess H forgot that part! They only see what they want to justify their behavior.

[job]

My xh told his mother that I was like his father. I don't know where he got that idea because I've not been married 5 times and had affairs in between the marriages nor did I abandon the family. I don't drink, gamble nor steal from the company I worked for.

So, the only thing that I can think of is that I told him he had to work a job and not lay around thinking he was King Tut. That he had to pull his weight in the marriage and work. Unfortunately, h is doing much of what his father did and he can't see it and he hated for anyone to say that he was just like his father.

As you can see, my xh's view of the people in his life was very off kilter.

[HaWho]

Thanks Cali, 2Times2Many, Sotto, Babe, Mleigh and Job for the posts. Cali - I know, I know-I wish my mouth came with an auto zip feature.

Really, I heard some outlandish stuff yesterday. Lots and lots of illogical thinking/rationalizations. At the top of the nutty conversation list was him saying that his parents weren't "really married" when his father was cheating with ow?!? I zipped it on that one. His father probably justified it that way. But I am sure that would be news to his mom who was wearing the wedding ring and home raising their two kids under 20 months of age. And, there was a time my h knew very well that this was slimy, selfish behavior.

I did shake it off. Spent the afternoon with S12 and then went for a sunset hike by myself.

He's been pretty cranky today in that irritable way pre- BD. Good times over here!!

[kml]

I remember a couple of years before my ex's affair, he told me about a client whose husband had a MLC and dumped his wife for an OW. Now a few years later the husband was remorseful and begging to be taken back, but the LBW felt that there was too much water under the bridge and she could never trust him again. At the time my ex felt it was so sad that this guy had messed up his marriage.....yet that didn't stop my ex from making the same mistake a couple of years later.

Something about MLC just turns their thinking upside down.

[Babe]

He's been pretty cranky today in that irritable way pre- BD. [/quote]

Job; read and learn that the MLCer cycling before they really get out of the tunnel.
Is that true when the fog eventually lifted, the behaviors of crisis stages can all mix together, we will still see angry, denial, withdrawal, outlandish actions and most of all - depression ?

[123Gwen]

KML - My WAS basically had the same conversation with me about 3 years before BD. Very sad and horrifying,

[Kyh]

He's been pretty cranky today in that irritable way pre- BD. Good times over here!!

It must be in the air, w has been the same way the last few days. I can't believe how much of what you describe of your h is exactly the same for my w. Since you are ahead of me in this mlc with live in spouse madness your threads have been extremely helpful. Especially on those days I want to throw in the towel. Thank you!

In addition to your h, I can't believe how much of what others have posted above that I've heard. Straight from the mlc script.

[job]

HaWho,
Your h could be thinking about the upcoming family visit and is trying to rationalize the sleeping arrangements and his behavior. Keep in mind, this visit is a real stressor for him and he doesn't know how to figure out what he needs to do about it. It's not your problem, so let him spin for a while.

Also, we have another "family" holiday coming up..Easter! That also may be affecting his mood.

Hang in there! He may be all over the map until the family visit is over and done with. Chalk it up and anything he says or does, take it w/a grain of salt.

[HaWho]

Maybe that is the case Job. All I can say is pre MLC h had a moral compass that pointed true north. Now, that same compass is like a windsock. It's par for the MLC course, as we all know.

So here is something kind of cute. My little teenager snuck out late Friday!!! Here is how he got busted.

I fell asleep around 11PM. At 11:45 the dog was growling at something outside the front door. Dog persisted and I heard, what I thought was h opening the door, to see what was going on. But 2 minutes later S12, ever vigilant and watchful comes to me and whispers: "mom! Dad went out!" (Love how he rats him out!!!)

Then within minutes S10 came in sick with a stomach ache. So I was up and down the stairs a bit after that. H did not emerge from the dorm room. (S12 had gone to his room and h scolded him teenage style- "WHAT?!?").

In the AM S12 says to h: "you went out last night!" H: (defensively) "for 10 minutes. Did I wake you? (Looks at me.). Me: "yes, but S10 got sick anyway."

So, fast forward to last night S12 was terribly sick (still is). At 11PM I go to leave to the store to pick up some items for S. As I am leaving h calls my name in a questioning fashion. I tell him I need to run to the store. He asks if he should go. I say no thanks (honestly I just need the items fast and who knows what he'll come back with). But before I leave I do say: "will you be here or are you going out?" H: "are you kidding?" Me: "no. S is sick and someone needs to be here." In a gruff voice he says he will be home. He knows I am calling him out on his sneak out.

Today he is walking around indignant.

[job]

OMG! That is too funny. The more they try to sneak stuff, the more they get busted! I love it that your son caught him! It's too bad that he could get back in w/o banging on the door! LOL!

I do hope your son feels better soon. Maybe he can pass the bug on to your h! LOL!

[BrightFuture]

HaWho, I.m sorry… I’ve been reading your thread like a fiction story… This is just so unreal…Your H’ actions… It is like he is an adult, thinking about the kids, and… he is not an adult… So bizarre… I think I’m grateful that I don’t have witness this with my H… I’m sure there are a lot of stories to tell…

I’m, cheering for you, HaWho! Hang in there!

[Babe]

HaWho, Hang in there !
I found this thread(there is HOPE) did you read these ?
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1260760&page=1

[HaWho]

Hi Bright and Babe. Babe - thanks for those links. I read through those a while back so it is good to re-read. Thank you both for the kind words. Job - thanks for your concern about my sick son.

Just noting this for those studying MLC.

Came home to old h today. Crazy when this one shows up. I actually find it easier to act "as if" with the various other personalities over the old h. I try not to gawk when this one makes his cameo appearance: the white unicorn!

He was in the living room and his body language was of the old h. I knew it was him instantaneously. I had items in my hand and he asked if I needed a hand (just like old h used to do). I said no as my load was light. He asked me a question about the dog, just so present in the here and now, like his old self. He told me he saw x person who knows me and we chatted about that. There was a moment where we made eye contact and they were his eyes--not those dreadful dead eyes.

I wanted to ask this one to come to Easter dinner!! LOL! I did consider asking him if he was aware of what was going on with him and to "blink twice if you do." But S12 was in the room.

Also interesting, this week he has been wearing some of the clothes he wore years ago, pre-BD and he is eating more of the old foods he used to love.

As for me, I have been busy taking care of S12 who is finally better. In between working and caring for him, there has not been time for much else. S and I were able to sleep last night as, thankfully, his fever broke and he was not sick.

Tomorrow S12 will return to school and before work, I will walk with a new friend I have met. Our dogs are good friends, too.

[melweb]

Omg Ha!! You crack me up!! And really? If this whole sitch did not hurt so much, wouldn't it be kind of comical?

Glad your son is feeling better. I hate sick kids!! Hope whatever he had does not decide to make the rounds in your house. Especially if you are making Easter dinner.

Enjoy your walk

[HaWho]

And with the glimpse of old h's personality a little peek out follows. H sent me some pics and then asked me what I thought of them. I hadn't seen them yet and was heading out so I texted him back. I made a joke and he made a few jokes in his old way. He made a few other jokes about other things, too. They are the same exact jokes he made when we first started to date. Literally.

Funny, what a difference a year makes. Last year I would have been so happy with this glimpse of humor. This year? I joked back, but beneath the surface I felt like I have outgrown him and this whole situation. It feels like this crazy 8 pattern. Is it an intentional "hey, I am still here" from him? Or is it some knee jerk leftover synapse like a heart that keeps beating after every other organ fails? Who knows and sadly, he may not even know what it is.

He has taken the reins and made some plans for the four of us for tonight. That is nice. Wonder how long he'll lock himself into the dorm room afterward to recover from it all. I know that crazy 8 pattern awaits.

H once said, in a moment of clarity, that he thought once he turned 50 he will have crossed the Rubicon of his life. He is 47 now.

It is hard to pinpoint when this all started for him; so very gradual was it. I know summer of 2010 he was happy; we were happy. By summer 2012, the irritability and anger was surfacing. So atypical for his usual golden retriever personality. It was visible and I was looking around for its source. I kept asking him why he was so cranky. And he would respond with a ratcheted up dose of irritability. A pattern was born.

So, somewhere between that timeframe the MLC train had left the station. He was angry/irritable/withdrawing for 3-4 years pre-BD. Now, it is almost 1 1/2 years post BD. Looking at this with the greatest optimism, maybe he is halfway through?!?

It's crazy that this is now written into my life story and into my kids' life story. It's hard not to resent that.

In some uplifting news, I finally felt the desire to go clothes shopping! (Sorry to the guys--you can change the channel!!!). So much physical projection has been hurled my way. I am stating to shake that off. I finally see it for what it is so I guess I have processed a lot of it. I bought a lot of pink and it made me happy. I also bought these heels that have a splash of floral print on them. They are super cheerful. The floral print is a bit blurred as though I am in motion. I liked the symbolism of that.

[Babe]

Hi HaWho, spring is here, the idea of getting floral print heels for your closet is just great !!

Recall that I read(Job's word); 18-24 months before BD is when MLCer entering into their transition/crisis and replay lasts for another 18-24 months. Everyone is different, so the time frame of stages of MLC differs.

I felt the desire to dress myself too, this is good isn't it ? We were told to get a life, it was difficult at the beginning when just got bombed... I enjoy shopping, going to a movie, visiting the museum by myself recently.

[melweb]

Floral print heels?! They sound awesome. And I love the symbolism. You go girl!!

Babe--I love your GAL list--very similar to mine. I enjoy the library too.

I need to clothes shop myself. I have lost so much weight during this, that absolutely nothing fits. Its on my to do list for up coming week. Hopefully I can find some floral heels :>

[job]

It takes 18-24 months lead up time to the crisis and another 18-24 months after acceptance for them to settle down into their own skin again. Replay can last for many years, not months. However the lead up and final settling into their skin is just about right in terms of time. The other stages, well, they are unique to the individual and their childhood issues.

I'm glad you got out and did some retail shopping and those floral shoes are the cutest shoes and they are "it" this spring.

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, so glad you were able to indulge in a little retail therapy AND find things that were cheerful.

Those glimpse of the old H may be fleeting and you may know that guy will go into retreat, but at least you know he's still there.

Thanks for your input on my thread. You are a very wise lady!

Hope you have a wonderful Easter weekend.

[HaWho]

Hi Babe, Melweb, 2Times2Many and Job. Thanks for the posts/input.

Somehow h and I were talking alone. We stumble onto talking about life goals as we were discussing S12's courses for next year. Heard some disturbing stuff.

We are discussing s12 working hard, meeting potential, etc. At one point h tells me that guys just hanging out at the beach are happier than h is. Wonderful. I listen. Then he tells me store clerks seem happier than he is, too.

I listen. But it is ridiculous. He makes it sound like if only he would work a minimum wage job all his problems would disappear. Like this will erase all his responsibility. Talk about projective thinking. Like that minimum wage store clerk isn't stressed about paying rent or mortgage here in one of the most expensive areas of the U.S.? Yeah, he just stocks shelves and then owns a beach house and vacations in Europe. So stupid. Because it's such a high quality of life when you make minimum wage. I zipped it but the logic is so silly.

Then he asks if that electric skillet is clean (the one that somehow was not scrubbed). I say yes. (I did it even though I am sure he left it that way. But I took the high road.) He says "finally." He takes the skillet out of the cabinet and somehow some black bits that were under the skillet fall into the floor. He gets mad. I tell him there is a broom; it's no big deal. He says he will clean it up even though it is not his mess because he is a "swell guy."

Meanwhile he made eggs 4 days ago and put some water in the pan but left the the pan on the stovetop. It smells. Since he is so "swell" I ask when he plans to clean his pan. He says he soaked it. (Like that means it'll clean itself?!?) I say inquisitively: "shouldn't one clean the pan he uses?!?" He is quiet and says: yeah. I will leave it for him even if the kitchen starts to take on that dorm roomish essence.

At least this year he knows it's Easter. Last year he was a mess. He texted me yesterday to say he bought the kids a few treats. I validated. That is progress.

I wore my floral print shoes yesterday. So fun!! And I am cooking and baking up a storm for Easter. I am better this year, too. I was in shock this time last year. 4 days from now, last year, I would get BD # 2. This was the "kinky" bomb drop, where h got some wild ideas.

[mleigh4]

Hawho, I just shake my head with your posts about your H sometimes. To look around and think others are happier, to even say it, is so obviously depression. So, by us not guiding them towards getting help or pointing it out, at what point are we enabling it? Acting like that is a normal comment wouldn't feel right to me? I would love some feedback from the vets on that.

I love to hear you are in a better place this year. Cooking and baking for Easter sounds wonderful. I hope you have a great day, you deserve it

[HaWho]

You know Mleigh, today I came so very close to telling him that he's depressed and maybe he should talk to someone for antidepressants. It's so warped. He probably thinks somebody on death row has a better life. But I just don't think he is ready to believe he's depressed.

Plus, he is better. This time last year his depression was really, really bad. He literally barricaded himself into the dorm room and even propped a chair against the door. (There is no lock on that door.) When he was home he was always in that room & only came out to eat dinner or go to the bathroom. He kept the blinds closed for 3 months straight--not a glimmer of sunlight. And he did have the worst thoughts one can have. Those were really stressful days. I wasn't posting here yet.

So I do see improvement, granted the bar was low last year. It's hard to know when to intervene. My gut tells me he won't believe he needs help.

Here is the other problem. Sad as this, at this point, I would just want him to get a prescription for antidepressants and not see an IC. I think the warped depression tinged story he would tell the IC would lay the foundation for him to hear: cut and run, make yourself happy, do what feels right, etc. I have little faith that an IC will detect that this is MLC.

[job]

The comments he made are dissatisfaction w/his life. He sees others smiling and being pleasant and he thinks that they are happier doing what they are doing. He only sees them in that setting and doesn't have a clue as to what responsibilities go along w/that individual. He's sad, he wants change and doesn't know how to go about it. He's depressed...even if he got a prescription for ADs, there is no guarantee that he would take them. My former MLCing friend got a prescription for Paxil and he would open the bottle, smell the drugs and then close the bottle up and put it away. He didn't want anything that was going to mess w/his brain. They have to figure things out, but you could gently suggest that maybe he needs to go in to the GP for a check up to see what's going on. I wouldn't suggest IC at this point because he's not ready for that.

As for cleaning up the kitchen...he makes a mess, he should clean it up. I do agree w/you 100% on that one.

I do hope that you and your family have a Happy Easter!

[2Times2Many]

I recall one visit last year that H left here so depressed I was seriously worried he'd try to kill himself. He said he knew he was suffering from depression before he left. The next time he came back, he said he'd done a lot of thinking and self-reflection, had worked through it and his depression was over!

Now, he's into the mantra of this life engineering group he found and everything is joy, joy, joy. Be joyful. Don't worry that your train is about to go over the edge of a cliff. Just be joyful as you crash. They are so open to suggestions to try doing this or that. But they don't just try it, they dive in. At least my H does.

I understand what you're saying about an IC who wouldn't see MLC. I know my H is in serious need of therapy but I too fear that, at this point, an IC might do more harm than good.

As a matter of fact, H did see an IC for a few sessions during round 1 many years ago. The IC actually encouraged him to abandoned his life here and go chase the fantasy. Then, during the one session he had with me, he said I was attractive and still young. I'd find someone else!

[job]

Some of them do go off the deep end and join life engineering groups as well as become obsessive over religion. Some talk about climbing Mt. Everest or becoming a Monk. They are seeking change, i.e., anything that will calm the racket that is banging in their heads. They know something is wrong, but they can't put their finger on what it is. It's very sad when they are so close to meds and therapy and yet, they are miles away in their minds.

All you can do is listen and observe from afar. It's tough to watch them go thru this and even more so when you listen to their "out loud" thoughts.

[Ginger1]

Joy is a great mantra, actually. The problem is how you perceive it. If joy has to do with going out and looking for joy in some crazy places, you'll be heard pressed to find it. If the mantra of joy is focusing on finding it in what you have, then you'll be pretty joyful.

The key to finding this joy is inside of ourselves. Too bad his life engineering group doesn't preach that.

[job]

Ginger,

Your are absolutely correct 100%. Happiness comes from within, not from external sources.

[HaWho]

Happy Easter everyone!

2Times2Many- my h said the exact same words to me about a year ago: "you should go find someone while you are still young and beautiful." My response to him: "I am not looking to find 'someone.' Plus, I am the mother to two children and that would really mess them up if I suddenly went around dating other men." I have never subscribed to whole "I should just make me happy and the kids will understand" mentality. Although that is exactly what he wanted to do. Very selfish.

Job - the MLCer turned monk is probably pretty common. 1 year ago I knew h was in MLC at this point and he had recently told me he needed to "change his life." We were out one day and h told us about this boss he had in his 20's. The guy had it all: lucrative career, wife, kids, etc. Well, he quit, sold every possession he had, gave all his money away and became a monk!! I said: "let me guess, he was around 50 yrs. old?" H says yes. I say to the boys: "kids, that's called a midlife crisis." H get really mad and says: "no he just wanted to change his life. People want that." Me: "ok so what happened to him?" Long pause. H: "2 years later he reappeared at the company asking for his job back as though he had just quit yesterday." Me: "yep, when you change your life that drastically, that's a midlife crisis." Of course h could not see the ridiculousness of it. And I had not yet found DB so I was still trying to reason with him.

Last night after kids went to sleep I hid eggs for their hunt. On the counter were three boxes from a bakery. These are the treats h bought the other day. There was one for me, too. Very thoughtful. Again, it is improvement from last year, though ever so slow. In the am, I thanked him. He made no eye contact. It's okay. I didn't look at it and think: I hope he still has feelings for me. Really, I just thought: I am okay with things as they are. And I wasn't sad.

This is kind of funny. I made a nice brunch. H came out and decided to put on some music. That is progress. I know he has talked a lot about trying to "feel" as I know depression leaves that void. Well, he opted for Christmas music! So there I was eating Easter brunch to Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer!! Job, hope this has you laughing on the floor. S12: "why are we listening to Christmas music in March?" H: "because it's cheerful."

All that was missing was that Christmas tree he wanted to keep up . . .

[job]

OMG! Christmas music at Easter. Well, it could be because they are all tied into his childhood and the memories of what the "goodies" were like on those special days. Maybe he associates Christmas to being happy.

Honestly, I truly would like to better understand what his hang up is w/Christmas, i.e., music and that tree. That particular holiday holds a special meaning for him...but what and how?????

Whatever happened to the song about Peter Cottontail hopping down the bunny trail? That song use to be played a lot and now you don't hear it at all. Gosh, I'm telling my age on that one. LOL!

Happy Easter and enjoy your goodies and you better eat them quickly or he will have gobbled them up and left the empty container there for you to toss.

[HaWho]

Yes, there is some sort of hangup on Christmas. It has always been a favorite and I suspect he is summoning energy from that season and its festvities. But who knows. Maybe he is stuck because something happened one XMAS?!?

Well, next up: 4th of July. I'll have Silent Night on standby. LOL!!

My kids listened to Peter Cottontail!!! Maybe I'll play is at Christmas.

Happy Easter Job. And thank you for ALL you have done for me. I owe you so much.

[2Times2Many]

Oh my goodnes, HaWho! That's priceless.

I'm glad Easter has gone well for you, in spite of the choice in music.

Just to hijack for a second (sorry HaWho) ... Ginger, I agree that joy is a good mantra and didn't mean to indicate otherwise. The group H is associated with seems to teach a lot of positive approaches to build a happy and joyful life. H just distorts some of them to suit his purposes, uses others (like seeking and living a joyous life) to validate his poor choices and behavior and then disregards the others. That's all I meant.

[mleigh4]

I am laughing so hard. Christmas music this morning, and your son asking why it is on, that just kills me HW! That is hilarious.

Well, sounds like your H has definitely made progress from last year. How terrible for your family to have to see all that, and not being able to do anything.

So Job, are you saying we basically have to wait for the MLC'er to see themselves that they are depressed, and hope they take the steps to help themselves? And the ones who don't see it as depression, who don't learn that happiness comes from within, may be the ones who stay stuck? I think I know the answer to that...

I do agree though, IC who are not familiar with MLC depression really do scare me. I wonder why there are so few out there? Don't they see a pattern going on?

HW, so happy to hear you are having a good day. So, you still hide eggs for your boys? I was hoping this would end soon so I can get some sleep! Lol. Actually, I truly enjoy this kind of stuff. Have a great day

[job]

mleigh,
From all that I have seen, MLCers do not like for us to tell them what is wrong w/them, i.e., diagnosing their ailments such as depression, heart, etc. They do not think that there is anything wrong w/them for a long time. As I have mentioned, you can gently suggest a visit to the GP just to make sure things are okay, i.e., yearly checkups, etc., but don't be surprised if they won't do it.

As for being stuck, those that don't grow up, face their issues and accept that they can't change what happened are the ones that remain stuck, i.e., not because they don't learn that happiness comes from within. MLC is all about their childhood issues. Some learn that happiness comes from within and others won't, even after they grow up, i.e., just like we have grownups who aren't suffering from MLC and still aren't happy w/what they have and accomplished in life and continue to spend money and try to keep up w/the Jones'.

I can't wait to see what happens for Memorial Day and Fourth of July. Jingle Bells anyone?

[BrightFuture]

OMG, Christmas music…

So Job, are you saying we basically have to wait for the MLC'er to see themselves that they are depressed, and hope they take the steps to help themselves? And the ones who don't see it as depression, who don't learn that happiness comes from within, may be the ones who stay stuck? I think I know the answer to that...

I have the same question. My H is taking the antidepressant medication now. Does it mean he at least recognizes that he has a depression? Does it mean that I’m off the hook for his unhappiness? Does it mean he has a better chance to come out of this and not get stuck?

HaWho, sorry for high jacking…

[job]

HaWho,

I'm sorry to hijack your thread again, but I would like to address Bright's posting and if she wants to continue this, we can do so on her thread.

Bright,

ADs take the edge off of depression to help them cope w/day-today activities. ADs generally do not make everything go away and sometimes people have issues w/the ADs and come off of them because of those issues. He may or may not recognize that he has depression even though he is on meds. I know that my friend knew that he wasn't feeling well, but would never admit to depression. In fact he asked his GP why he was being described Paxil and the GP told him to go around the corner and request an appointment w/the doctor there. Guess what field the doctor was in? He was a shrink! Of course, my friend didn't do it because he didn't think he needed to see a shrink nor did he take the Paxil. So, the question is this...is your h actually taking the meds as prescribed or only when he thinks about it? I'm sure you don't know the answer to that one.

As for being off the hook for his unhappiness....no one knows the answer to this except your h. He could still be unhappy w/his life and from what you've stated about him changing up some of the decorating in the condo, it sounds like he's still looking for "change" in his life. He's making changes to make himself happy for the time being. Does he have a better chance of coming out of MLC and not getting stuck? The million dollar question will be...has he accepted that he can't change anything from his childhood and is now ready to grow up? They have to face those issues, realize that they weren't at fault and accept that they didn't have any control to change what happened. If they can do that, then they have a better chance to continue moving along, growing up and coming out the other side of their crisis. Again, ADs is not the miracle pill to fixing the MLCer...it just helps them cope with day-to-day life. Eventually, the depression will lift if he continues moving along the path and if he's taking ADs, he may not require them after the crisis is over, but again, no one knows whether he will or not.

Bottom line, he still has to work thru his crisis, ADs or not, in order to come out the other side. Also, people taking ADs should not mix alcohol and/or other drugs w/the ADs, but some ignore the warnings and still drink. It's not a wise thing to do.

There's nothing any of us an do to make the crisis better for them. We can't fix them...they have to do that and that means working thru their crisis at their own speed. If they take ADs, that will help take the edge off the depression, but the depression is still there and again, the crisis' main ingredient is depression. They must work thru the entire crisis to come out the other side. If your h is taking ADs, that's a good thing and it helps him cope w/day-to-day life and work a job.

You already know what I'm going to say, but I'm going to repeat myself again...keep the focus on you. There is no way that any of us can predict what will happen in any situation and your h doesn't know himself at this time. As he works thru his crisis, he will come to realize that you were not the issue of his unhappiness, but he's not there yet and it could take a while for him to get to this point. I would continue to live my life to the fullest and, if and when, he does, come to you to talk about things, I would suggest that you listen and validate. Do not offer any advice unless you are asked. Again, it will happen, but it will be on his time clock, not yours.

[melweb]

Wow--thanks job. That post was good. And timely.

My H knows he is depressed. He has even expressed that he needs to see his Dr. I said that it prob wouldn't hurt/not a bad idea. Hopefully he acts on it and is not just giving it lip service.

Unfortunately, the problem will be, as you stated, that he drinks copious amounts of alcohol. He did tell his Dr that he drinks, but severely underestimated the amount, and even the Dr told him THAT was too much. And I believe his drinking has gone from bad to worse.


(Sorry to hijack HW--some answers just seem to cross-situate. Is that a word?)

[bttrfly]

It's the most wonderful time of the .... whaaaat? oh, it's March you say? hmmm, where did the time go?

God love ya HW xoxoxoxoxo

[HaWho]

Hi all - no worries; I don't consider conversations a takeover as one can never learn too much. I would be reading it anyway on someone else's thread! It's all interesting info.

Well, just a quick post with two interesting things. I forgot to mention that a few weeks back when h and I were discussing logistics about guests coming, one of the things he said was: "whatever 'our' shortcomings" he wanted to do the best for the kids". This was interesting as at BD he told me I was to blame for everything and so there was no point in therapy. Interesting that he saw "our shortcomings." I didn't text anything back.

Here is the second item of interest. I mentioned that I made a nice brunch yesterday. Well, we took the kids and dog up to the park later in the day yesterday and I was talking with a couple I know. H was kind of to the side. The couple offered us some food as they had packed a picnic for the park.

H said: "no thanks. HaWho made an amazing spread this morning." I looked at him and he definitely caught the surprise in my eyes. Plus, I am unfortunately very expression (really bad poker face) so he probably knows I was thinking: "ah haa so you admit you've been ultra critical of me!!" It has been a long time since he has said anything positive about me. The woman said: "awwww" like h was some sort of angel and I wanted to set her straight!! "No, no, don't you be perfuming a pig. He sleeps in a stinky dorm room and we just finished listening to Drummer Boy."

H's irritability started with my cooking. I couldn't do anything right anymore. He went from loving my food to criticizing how I boiled water.

Do you see how sneaky he is though? He compliments in front of another woman so A) he comes out smelling like roses. And B) he kind of "apologizes" in this safe setting where I have to be gracious vs. giving him a truth dart. Plus, I had to quickly mask my "you know at this moment you went crazy criticizing my food look" so he escaped the pain of that, too.

I did feel vindication though.

[BrightFuture]

Job, thank you for addressing my question. I do have some more thoughts on this. I will post on my thread too… Just got back from the vacation home, a bit tired tonight.

HaWho, I have the same kind of bad poker face too, LOL. It is so funny how it played out… Your H making a comment about your "nice" cooking and the woman thinking that he is an “angel”… I would totally want to set her strait too… I’m glad you felt vindicated. We all need this once in a while .

[HaWho]

So a few updates. Day started off great. Went on a long hike before work and ran part of it. I felt grateful that I am not sitting on my hands worrying about my m or my h. I think of Cadet and how he first sends that bit about being given the "gift of time." A year ago I scoffed at that and today I realized it's true! H was going to go crazy no matter what and I could lose myself in it or eat life with a big spoon.

But then the day took a turn for the worse. There are just some really awkward MLC moments. H came out of the dorm room for dinner and said "hello little family." Which is something he used to say. And it just grated on me. I just sat there remembering how he wanted an open marriage and I am just grossed out at being "family" with him. Not very DB I know. But I just feel tons of resentment.

H is talking about calories and losing weight ALL THE TIME. Almost every conversation this week has been of the following variety: how to lose weight, eat less, did you know there are x calories in this, did you know there are y calories in that. He has ordered all new supplements/products. Everyday there is a new package from some vitamin company. Now, whenever I see a UPS driver on our street squinting at addresses, I save the driver his time and flag him right on over. The package is always for h. And I am so bored by this. You may be thinking the weight conversations are hints to me? But I am the same weight I have been for a long time. In fact, I need to gain weight. He is down there now and I can hear him concocting some crazy weight loss meal as I type.

Another awkward moment at dinner. S12 is discussing one of his teachers. He says to h: "remember x teacher?" H: "no?!? Why would I know her?" S12: "you met her at the open house back in September!" Silence.

S12 is trying to figure this out. He can remember that we both came. S12 went off to a children's orientation and h and I went to the adult one. Or, so S12 thinks. When S left, h said to me: "this is going to be soooo boring. I'm going to go to the plaza across the street and hang out." And he walked off like a teen. I missed the visiting personality and was just plain confused as I attended open house by myself while my h, in front of everyone, walked off to the mall. I am sure that had everyone talking.

So now S is trying to figure out how h did not meet this teacher as he saw h there. I wait for h to say something, but am sure h can't remember. So I say: "he didn't go." And there is silence. Very weird.

Meanwhile now S10 has open house tomorrow. He reminds h. H later comes out of the dorm room and in an over the top fashion says: "so open house tomorrow! I can't wait to be there!" I don't say anything.

Tonight I come downstairs after reading with S10 and tucking him in. H is at the printer with his computer. There are green scenic pictures all over the screen. He sees me and he closes that window pronto, and opens it to a blank screen. Seriously?!? His body language is cagey and secretive. I walk into the kitchen and he picks up his computer and he goes back into the dorm room. Closes the door. So stupid.

Later, when I am back upstairs he comes out to print again. I come downstairs and can see that he's printed off several pages. I think they are places he is considering staying as he has now re-booked that trip he cancelled a few weeks ago.

And I do spin. Want to hear the crazy voices in my head? Lots of girls will be on spring break at the time he's traveling. That's probably why he's trying to lose weight! He will be near spring break destinations. Maybe he is going there to hide money in a bank after we sell this rental property? Maybe that's why he postponed the trip in the first place? Maybe he is taking a women there? Or meeting her there? Or maybe he'll just hookup with women when he gets there?

And I just think this is an awful, awful way to live my life. Yes, I can GAL and focus on me but, really this is just awful. The stupid secrecy and all. (I am married to a man who hides behind a closed door!!) Last year this time he went away with his loser Viagra friend. Who knows who his loser companion is this go-around.

How long can I live like this? What kind of dignity is there in this? This is so stupid.

[melweb]

Oh HW It times like this that I wish I knew who you were and where you are. We would so be friends and I would so hug you right now.

This "Why?" question keeps popping up in my sitch too. Not only from my own spinny brain, but from my sisters who really want to come out here and ax murder him. Don't think I don't lay in my bed after a stressful R talk and go "What are you doing, Mel? Why are you fighting for this M? Why am I trying to hand on to a short, chubby, depressed, man?" And he he left out cheating drunk! Cuz H is right about one thing--the M has been crappy for almost 10 years. And 10 years ago I WISHED he'd had an affair so I had a reason to walk, not just 'this marriage $uck$.'

And yet here I am. Here you are. Hanging on for dear life. There must be a reason deep inside your heart and soul that tells you to do that, or you would have let go long ago. For me, its that I need to lay my head down every night and know that I did absolutely everything I could to save this M. That I get to look into my boys' faces in 6 months, 1 year, 10 years, and know that I did the right thing in the face of wrong. That I am not the one that had an A and walked out the door (should he decide to do that), or made him walk out the door.

Maybe there are no tangible reasons at all. Even I have said "No one is more surprised than me that I am trying to save this M. And myself in the process." I can't really explain it. I just KNOW its what I need to do.

And yes it is awful and stupid. And it hurts like H-E-Double Hockey Sticks!!

[Kyh]

I've asked myself those same questions so many times and have those crazy voices.  It's tough being married to a mlc teenager.  I often ask myself wth I'm doing. I would never thought I would put up with the things w has done, then again I never thought I would even have to ever even consider it. It is like a switch flipped in her. That is the major reason I am still standing, I know there is something wrong with w, this isn't her.  

I know what you mean about dignity, I think about it a lot, but you should always remember what a great mom you are and that you are the rock for your family and they will always know it. That is very commendable. I think by standing it shows that we are capable of unconditional love, we just don't hang it up when things aren't easy (idk if my w has got that from anyone else). Our kids will know that someone we care about can screw up badly yet we will still be there for them and that we did everything we could. I find a little dignity in the fact that I'm not giving up on someone I believe has something seriously wrong with them and keep trying my best to keep my family together because I want the kids and I to have the mother and woman I knew that I know is in there somewhere.

[Babe]

I think by standing it shows that we are capable of unconditional love, we just don't hang it up when things aren't easy (idk if my w has got that from anyone else). Our kids will know that someone we care about can screw up badly yet we will still be there for them and that we did everything we could.

[/quote]

You are great !!!

I read somewhere from internet - Wedding vows are not a declaration of present love but a mutually binding promise of future love. Dear All, Be strong !!

Me 42
H 40
Kid 0
BD Sep. 2014
H moved out June 2015

[mleigh4]

Hi Hawho. I can think of all kinds of encouraging things to say...thing is....I am in the same place as you. Those questions go through my head, more and more, every day. Thing is, as time goes by, and not much changes, you start to question yourself....how much longer until I am done?

Let's be real, that is the million dollar question here. We stand, we honor, we validate and we care until we get to that point. So far, I have seen the ones who come back too early, then put their family through it all over again. Then you have the ones who remain stuck....maybe I have not been here long enough to see someone actually come out of this....

I believe you, as well as myself, are at a point where we feel we have done all we can.... So, now what? For whatever reason, we stay and keep taking it. I am sure there is a reason....

To say this situation is stupid is putting it nicely. It is emotionally draining and not for the weak. No matter what, we will come out of this stronger, wiser and better than ever. That alone makes this a benefit for us.

So I ask, do you regret going for as long as you have? I think you will say no. I honestly admire you so much for what you deal with. Your frustrations are valid. I am sorry if I am coming off as negative about it all, it just all gets to be so old. So immature. So selfish.

When do we decide we deserve a better life and take that step? Each of us have our own timeline. You will know.

[CaliGuy]

HW

Sitting here reading up as I sit on the other end of the baseball field as my wife, typing away on my phone so excuse the strange autocorrects that are sure to happen.

Sometimes I wonder who has it easier... The LBS with the stay at home, the boomerangs, or the total vanishers and it occurred to me that thought is like asking which end of the chit sandwich is better... It's still a chit sandwich

The teenage behavior, obsession with losing weight, planning those trips... Yup we have all bought and wore the "Been there Done that" T shirt that we would never want to be seen wearing in public, the ongoing theme with all this is ... Brace yourself as you know it's coming... Nothing you can really do, he is in Cry-Isis and is going to do what he will do like the MLCterrorist they are. What I have learned is the less I allowed this to affect me, not only did it release me from carrying around that crap and stop me from spinning, the MLCr does notice.... We are mommy/daddy and they do look for our reactions



You have it harder I think, he is the kid who lives with mom and isn't leaving the house.... I think of that movie with Matthew McCaugahy (can't recall the title) where his parents hire a woman for him to date to get him out of the house... He is right there constantly messing with your frame.... Frame is a new thing I've been learning and without our frame our painting falls to the floor and gets crumpled.... You have to focus harder and work harder to create and hold your frame... Homework and some future growth for you if you are up to the challenge

Remember, your H has to do this, on his own.... And trust me... You have to do the work and become stronger for that strength will be called upon to navigate the waters that are yet still before you.... You have this

[kml]

Failure to Launch was the film.

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, how I wish I could give you a real hug!

I know exactly where you are. So much secrecy, so much deception, so many half-truths or downright lies. And we spin.

Here's a quick example of my crazy voices ... that stupid "status" my H put on WhatsApp about choosing between a Russian meal and a German meal ... what if it isn't a meal at all he's deciding between, but a choice between a Russian OW or German OW?

My point is, I don't have anything to base that on. We all have our crazy voices. I don't think we'd be human if we didn't. It's tough sometimes to turn down the volume.

I'm reminded of my Mom when she lost part of her hearing. She'd miss parts of conversations and then later fill in the missed parts with what she logically thought belonged.

We do the same. We're missing parts of the conversation and trying to fill in the missing parts with what should logically belong there. But there is nothing logical to work with because we don't have all the facts and we're dealing with someone who is confused themselves (to put it nicely). Or we imagine scenarios so we can prepare ourselves to face the next thing that hits the fan precisely because we have too many missing parts of the conversation.

I ask the same questions. How long can I do this? It IS an awful way to live but I try to remember that it won't last forever. One way or another, this way of living will come to an end.

As for what kind of dignity there is in this. It's the dignity of knowing that we're good, loving, compassionate people who don't run for the hills at the first sign of trouble. The dignity of knowing we're willing to take a deep breath, face an issue and try to find a solution. The dignity of knowing, if we have to walk away, that we did all we could.

You've handled your sitch with dignity and grace. I don't think there is anyone on this board who doesn't admire and respect the way you've traveled this journey.

{{{HUGS}}}

[HaWho]

Oh, Melweb, Kyh, Babe, Mleigh, Cali & 2Times2Many thanks so much!! Your posts all meant so much to me!! Thank you everyone.

Take away from all your posts: I can be proud that I did not throw him away at the first sign of trouble. But, I need to strengthen myself. Quick clicks out of screens can't have me spinning. I should be beyond that. Wish I had made light of it and said: "oh if you want privacy you can take the printer into the dorm room." Next time I will try something like this. It's annoying to act like I'm stupid and don't see the cagey behavior. And it's awful to spin. Must find an in-between.

So, I have been terribly sick. S10 caught the sickness from S12 and I caught it the other night. High fever and aches and all that jazz. But today, I feel better. About 80%. I had a productive day. Ran some errands, lots of laundry, grocery shopped, etc.

Before I got sick, I emailed h a political article. He sometimes emails me something and it was a bit of news I thought he would find interesting. He answered immediately and we went back and forth a bit. Things seemed fine until he emailed me that I was "basically a man hater" and then put a smiley face. Pretty sure this is projection.

This is the second time within a few weeks where he has insulted me and then put a smiley face at the end. The first time, I validated: sad I was sorry he felt that way. But then discredited what he said about me with facts. I know I "won," because when I sent the electronic truth dart, he said "well on a different note ..." and changed the subject. If he had a leg to stand on he'd fight to the death.

This time I asked him: why do you say hurtful things and then add a smiley face? He backed off in his answer in true PA fashion. Shout out to Mleigh - took that straight from that book you recommended.

While I was sick he did text me a few times to see if I needed anything. At one point he asked if I was still breathing up there. What? A glimpse of humor? So I ask: "why? Have you done something to kill me?" His answer: "nope."

So, wit/sense of humor is still completely MIA.

[Sotto]

Glad you're feeling better HaWho and interesting interactions with your H. I thought your direct question was a good one and 'calling' stuff like that is the best way I think. H used to do quite a bit of that - offer a 'bring you down' joke and say it was in humour, but it had an edge to it. I called him on it a couple of times and he apologised.

Hope you're back to 120% soon xxx

[HaWho]

Sotto - thanks for the feedback.

For the last few days h has seemed extremely uncomfortable around me. He has made no eye contact and seems so much like a teen avoiding an adult's eye. He will be telling a story in a room with all of us and won't even glance my way. Maybe that's due to my call out on his PA comment? Who knows?!?

By the same token he is often telling me where he is going and he is more consistently doing things with the kids. On Sunday, he helped S12 with a school project. It's almost done and it's coming out great. I complimented and told him I was sure S12 will always remember working on that with him. Afterwards he went out by himself and texted me something about the project. Then he told me he was going somewhere to pick up x for the project. He is sometimes less secretive on this front.

Yesterday we were all in the car together when his cell rang. He answered it and it was something financial related. The person on the line must have asked how many kids he had, h answered: "2 but I told my wife I wanted more." For me that was all around awkward for obvious reasons.

Yesterday H filled me in on lots of financial issues going on. I listened a lot. There are steps we have taken, initiated by me, to lighten his responsibilities/pressures. He seems relieved and mentioned he is appreciative for the lighter load. I am hoping he sees his new lease on life.

There is one funny story. H came to dinner the other night telling us there was a remote village in Europe where many of the residents were living to be 100. He mentioned some of the foods they eat and now he will eat them, too. I suggested it could be their soil and also many other factors, like Europeans are much more social than Americans. H pooh poohed that as he is convinced it's the diet.

Well, I saw the article he read and sure enough, they are extremely social. They get together with family every day for hours!! Imagine the stress release there. They were found to be overweight, too but that socialization is key. There was also a link to this article citing several other key ways of lengthening your life. Top items: having a purpose centered around others, walking regularly (higher altitudes help) and guess what #3 was for longer life spans in men only? Being married. I am sure he read that article too as he is obsessed with the topic. Of course, he didn't mention that little detail. LOL!

This weekend I am getting together with a friend I have not seen in 10 years! She is traveling here for work. I am looking forward to that.

[AJM]

Hi HW. I think I read that article too. If I recall correctly they also smoke and drink when they get together. Have you considered getting him a smoking jacket?


AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJM!!! So good to hear from you! And I am glad my life can offer you some comic relief.

Great MLC fashion advice. He can wear the smoking jacket (complete with velvet elbow patches) and smoke up like a chimney in his stinky 10 x 12 dorm room. LOL!!

[BrightFuture]

Hey HaWho, it was a weird comment about the children (wanting more)… I read an article about an island in Greece and the millennials living there about 2 or 3 years ago. Yes, along with healthy eating, flexible time (no stress related to be at work on time, etc…), they also have a strong community support. They do visit with each other on a regular basis. I also read about the statistics about married vs. single men. Married men do live longer.

I hope you enjoy your time with the friend this weekend!

[Kyh]

Great MLC fashion advice. He can wear the smoking jacket (complete with velvet elbow patches) and smoke up like a chimney in his stinky 10 x 12 dorm room. LOL!!

OMG, my w had a smoking jacket for her mlc smoking stint but no elbow patches! We could add it to the mlc calendar LOL.

[HaWho]

Kyh - too funny! I love the idea of the MLC fashion calendar. Was it Irish's idea?!? I am particularly dying to see Mleigh's h's bedazzled jeans and that bizarre outfit Sotto described. I know Kyh described some choice t-shirts, too. My h has not been an outlandish dresser. So, to identify him, I'll take a pic of him in a pile of all his supplements.

And the obsession with aging continues. H got together with an old buddy. He came home and showed me a pic of the guy and said: "look how old he is! He's lost his baby face!!"

The guy is 50 and hasn't had his baby face in the 15 years I have known him. So I assume h is stuck somewhere in the past where he remembers him from when they were boys?!? Weird. Anyway, I thought the guy looked great. Yes, he's aged but he had a great smile and that familiar glimmer in his eyes. He seems to be aging with grace vs. going into it like a cat into the bath.

Today h's Friday peekout expanded. He texted and asked if we all wanted to grab dinner tonight. I said sure and we had a nice night. Not too noteworthy except that he did ask me one question about myself. I would have to look back in my threads to see when he last asked about me in order to see how much time has passed. I suspect it's been at least 2 months?!? It was a question about my tennis and the season has been over for almost a month so it's been quite some time.

And also, there were a few times tonight h laughed. It was nice to see. The kids have this running joke about the dog. They have created a ridiculous voice for him and use it frequently. H has been annoyed by it as anything funny is taboo in MLC. So they have the dog saying all sorts of things like: "why am I a family dog? I should be herding cattle not playing with a squeaky pig." And today, h said: "you know I always found this annoying but today, I see it's funny." It was always very entertaining.

Tomorrow I get together with a childhood friend I haven't seen in 10 years. Yikes! I'll come back and, in true MLC style, report how very old she looks. Kids have some activities so I'll be busy with that. And I made friends with a new woman who invited me over to have lunch and play Mah Jong with her and her friends. I am looking forward to it.

[mleigh4]

I love the MLC calendar idea. There have been some very interesting fashion changes here! My H and his bedazzled jeans....cracks me up....thankfully he wears long shirts that covers the designer back pockets, but I still get a glimpse here and there when he wrestles with S or dog. I always think of you guys, makes me smile

Your poor H is really terrified with aging. I honestly think many men get more handsome as they age. My own H being one of them. I wish I knew a way to ease your H fear. I guess that is part of what he needs to work through?

Sounds like you have a nice weekend planned. Enjoy!

[kml]

I forget who it was, but somebody here once had a husband who took to wearing a raspberry beret during his MLC. I couldn't help but hum the Prince song every time I read her thread!

[BrightFuture]

kml, it was "wishing, hoping"'s xh who was wearing a raspberry beret.

[HaWho]

Well, the calendar cover winner would have to be Melweb's h in that thong. Not sure anyone can top that.

[melweb]

lmao...I can assure you no one wants to see my "short,chubby, depressed" H in his thong.

[AJM]

OMG, I totally forgot about the raspberry beret!! And the thong or middle aged men in bedazzled jeans...ewww.

And no, HW your life doesn't provide me with comic relief. The world is a stage and there are plenty of people right in my own little world that can, and often do provide me with amusement. When they're busy, I have plenty to laugh at myself about. I would not do that to you at this time in your journey.

Ask me later though, and I'll be happy to laugh at or with you. Until then, just with you is all I can offer.

I'm off to find a prince album..

AJ

[HaWho]

Hi everyone - MLC fashion serves up a funny conversation.

Mleigh - yeah, he is terrified of aging and it must be an exhausting way to live. It's exhausting to watch, kind of like getting angry that the sun sets each day.

Well, saw my childhood friend yesterday. We had a great time and lots of laughs. It was like no time had passed at all. We know each other so well having been friends as little girls. I did not however, tell her anything about my sitch. She is getting married for the first time and I just couldn't color her perception with crazy MLC paint.

Came home and S12 was still out with friends. H was supposed to pick him up and I asked when as s was hanging out at a place that was closing soon. H said S was not answering his texts. I don't have this problem with s. In fact, he sometimes calls me to check in on me! H was MIA for so long that it does not occur to S12 to check in with him. Sad, but true.

Well, h was quite upset and I see why. I think he's woken up a bit and is figuring out that the earth did not stop on its access for him. He was very mad and took S12's phone away. (Of course h didn't answer his texts while in hardcore replay and we all witnessed that. There's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.) I stayed out of it as it is their issue.

But this morning, very early, I heard h come upstairs, which he never does. I assumed he was going to talk to s about his lack of texting. But he came to my room! Job - if you are reading, he braved the elements and came up again!! I was not yet dressed and told him so. It was awkward for me. He slipped a sheet of rules to me through a crack. They detailed his expectations for S communicating while he's out. Looks like he's figured out he has no reins on the horse that has left the stable.

I dressed and came down and said I agree to the rules. Honestly, S has been adhering to these with me for quite some time. But I zipped it and listened. H told me that we are the adults here and S has to follow these rules. That's a first, too: him asserting his adulthood.

I wonder if it is possible that he has had his first awekening? Hmm.

Today when I came home from running errands h called my name out and greeted me just like he used to do. Same cadence and excitement to his voice. He made something for lunch and wanted me to try it. I did and it was good. I complimented.

Later we came home and the house smelled funny as the garbage hadn't been emptied. I joked that it was his room that funkified the house. He smiled and seemed to take the barbing in stride. I said I was sure there were frat houses cleaner than his bathroom.

I know you are not supposed to judge in MLC. And I have seen crazy different ages and let it all go, but that bathroom has not been cleaned since Christmas. It's really gross. He kidded and said it was time to bring in the cleaner just for his section of the house. Poor cleaner. This time I was ready and asked him to let me know when she is coming so I can be out of the house. I don't want to be here when someone has to clean a bathroom that hasn't been cleaned in 1/2 a year.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, that's an interesting interaction between your H and S. It reads a bit like someone demanding a courtesy when they haven't really done anything to earn it. And your S has clearly become used to his dad not being 'there' at points - which is a shame.

It's good that your H was interacting with you in a more positive way. Hearing that warmth in someone's tone must be nice - given all the other 'stuff' that happens. I guess like anything, we take what we get when it is given and enjoy the moment - then move forward with no expectations.

But I don't need to tell you that! Truly, I admire your handling of your situation and I enjoy your humour on the forum too.

Hope you have a good week xx

[HaWho]

Hi Sotto - Thanks for the reminders and feedback. The compliment means a lot coming from you. I hope I am fortunate enough to come out this as well as you are. You are admirable.

Now, a few updates. H seems to be ignoring me at times and then cheerfully greeting me at others. I see lots of hot and cold behavior. It not longer phases me. Either way I go about my day.

I think maybe he was spinning a bit, too? He came into the kitchen, was visibly fidgety, did nothing in the room and then walked back to his room. Very weird. Then he went to the dorm room, closed the door and blared music. One of the songs he played was, again, our wedding song. Obviously he knows I can hear it. I went upstairs and tuned it all out. Just odd. He has headphones and it seems to me he could use them on that song? I know he is playing the wedding song in his car too as S10 came home singing it today (after riding with h); s is one of those who sings the last song he heard. H was in the room with me when s sang it. I didn't even feel awkward. I have so shut down my emotions about that song.

Today h was supposed to pick up s10. I had s remind him this morning. 10 minutes to pickup time I had a funny feeling. I texted h and thanked him for picking up s today. He sent back a question mark. I reminded him he was picking s up. 20 minutes after scheduled pickup time, he texts me that he forgot and is on his way. He types a smiley face. I don't say anything. S always stays and hangs out playing with other kids at least a 1/2 hour. But still, there's that MLC memory at work.

Tonight h is an hour late for dinner, no text. We eat at the scheduled time and then when h comes home I am re-organizing kitchen cabinets. He says (slightly annoyed): "no dinner?" Very calmly I say: "no, I made dinner but packed up the leftovers after we ate. As I did not hear from you, I assumed you went out for the night." He says nothing. I am not hostile and I don't feel any anger. Really, it's just matter-of-fact and I know he reads that this is the sort of thing I expect of him now.

He helps the kids with schoolwork without being asked. Hmm. I ask him to help me with something that is broken. He does and I thank him.

Later I am sweeping the floor and the dorm room door is open. I see a 3 foot artificial Christmas tree all lit up. Job - are you there? Haven't heard from you in a while, but this ought to give you a kick. (And I hope things are okay with you.)

We had the tree stored in the rental property and now, apparently, it resides in his room. Clearly, there is some connection to Christmas. I am tempted to hang stockings and sprinkle tinsel around to add to the ambiance.

As for me, I have been busy with work. I continue to relax through lots of tennis and hiking. I met a new group of women and played mahjong. It's a really complicated game. I think once I get the hang of it I will like it.

[kml]

Lol the Xmas tree will go down in MLC history!

[HaWho]

Oh gosh. This one is a really ridiculous situation.

H has left 2 pots in the sink. One has been there for over a week. The other only 4 days, but it is really stinky as he made fish in it. The whole house is starting to smell.

Today I take a chance and jokingly ask him when the expected date of cleaning is for these two items. His response (and he is serious): "considering all I do around here, I was thinking you should do that." I say: "well, I didn't use those." Calmly, I walk away.

Later I say bye and he ignores me completely.

When I return home the pots are not in the sink and I am getting ready to thank him. Until I see the garbage can outside the kitchen door. And of course the two pots are in there. One is old and one is not old and very expensive. Can't believe he threw them away.

He has cooked something else and left that pot in the sink. I suppose by not cleaning that one he is saying he will throw that away, too if I don't clean it?

The immaturity is astounding. The whole thing is just bizarre. How desperate can you be to try and pick a fight?

But what was my alternative? To clean up after him? To never say anything?

[mleigh4]

Oh that would chap my hide. I think I would point out the thrown away pots and say, don't you think you are overreacting a bit? And Why did you do that? IDK, my new answer to meanness from H is questions instead of fighting.

I don't know what to think about the Christmas Tree. I have never heard of that before. Again, did you ask him anything about it? I am so curious to know what his Christmas quirk is about. KML is right, that will definitely go down in MLC history.

[HaWho]

Mleigh - I didn't ask about the Christmas tree. I am 99% sure he would tell me it's up because it's cheerful. He is completely ignoring me.

He is back to saying bye to the kids and nothing to me! So PA. Maybe when he starts speaking to me I will ask about the Christmas tree and see if my guess is right. I suppose I am not "allowed" to ask him to clean up after himself.

I just feel like I have outgrown all this. To spend one nano second thinking about it is such a colossal waste of time. But I have read it is good for that anger to come forth in the MLCer as anger brings clarity. We shall see.

I had a great day and this weirdness is just something I observe from a distance. It doesn't really touch me. How can I let it? What sane person gets this mad over such a small thing? What's next? He'll move out over it? Divorce me? Where does it stop? Maybe he'll change the locks on me. It is so ludicrous. Clearly no rational person behaves this way.

I had a nice afternoon with one S (other s went to a friend's). Tonight I went for a beautiful hike. I had a great day. I stepped on the gas and sped away from this one.

[mleigh4]

I hear you my friend. All of this that we put up with is ludicrous. I suppose some day we will know why we did it

Maybe it's best to not say anything if that works best for you. Watching from a distance is detachment and that is good and you are great at it! I'm sorry, I wish I could shake your H and wake him up. Keep doing your thing and leave him to ignore all he wants.

[Kyh]

Wow, these mlc traits are so uncanny. Idk how many gross dishes I cleaned when w was here, just piled up I rinsed with an empty dishwasher not a step away. I would sometimes see how long it would take but usually broke down and cleaned them so I could cook or so we could eat.

W has issues with Halloween and Christmas because of her parents religious beliefs, they pretty much took them away from her as a child, so sad.

ML, I like your comment about asking questions instead of fighting. I'm going to keep that in the back of my mind.

[2Times2Many]

HW, I don't know how you do it you but the patience you exhibit is astonishing. I suppose you have to look at it as an "observer." I recall a joke George Carlin did years ago. He was referring to political issues, but he said something along the lines of wanting to find himself on some planet and just sit back and watch the show down here. Sometimes I feel like that is all we can do ... just sit back and watch.

The Christmas tree thing is fascinating. But I wouldn't mention it now. I think I'd wait until he was done, or about done, baking to ask about that.

Kyh ... the dishes in the dishwasher thing. I used to get so frustrated with my kids when they would rinse a glass and then set it next to the sink instead of putting it in the dishwasher. Although he never did that before, H now does the same thing!

[job]

Sounds like your h is still playing the "frat" kid. I do hope that you and your son are feeling much better now. Try not to allow those crazy thoughts/questions to float around in your head. You are giving him entirely too much free rent in your brain! Just imagine this...he's got so much stuff in his head that it's all twisted up inside of there are no exits for the stuff to go away. His brain is working on over drive while yours is only got questions floating around in there. You do not ever want to have your brain filled w/the type of things he's got going on in there. Whenever those thoughts/questions come to mind, snap a rubber band on your wrist. There is no rhyme or reason for what he says or does at the moment.

He's got to work through each and every aspect of his outer self improvement stuff before he'll come to realize that you can't stop aging. It's all part of the process.

[HaWho]

Job! We've all missed you. Hope you are okay and that you just needed a break from this crazy MLC bubble.

Ok - thanks for the advice. Got the memo - there is no understanding crazy.

Nice to hear from you!!

[bttrfly]

Yeah, mine is now a cooking expert apparently -- when he lived with me during his MLC he also was a big fan of putting dishes beside the sink, often on the counter ABOVE the dishwasher. Then he would complain that there were dirty dishes everywhere and the counters weren't clear. HW 2x is right, you have an amazing amount of patience. God love ya girlfriend. I cannot even fathom the Christmas tree reasoning...

[HaWho]

Bttrfly - thanks for popping in. Regarding the Christmas tree, probably he is communicating with the mother ship.

Oh and it just gets nuttier. On the way home from S10's game I am checking my email. I look up and jump up when I see that h is sharing the left lane with this black pickup truck and the pickup truck is literally within 1 foot of me. H is half in the breakdown lane and the two of them seem to be battling for the lane. I freak and tell h to let the guy go. H does and then the fun really starts.

The guy in the pickup truck gets in front of us and starts to start and stop almost like he wants us to hit him. And the guy is a good driver. He bobs and weaves all over the place. I tell h to get in the right lane; he does. The pickup truck guy slows down and starts to swerve into and out of our lane again. I tell h to pull over completely and I grab my phone to call 911. We pull over and pickup truck guy blocks the road in front of us. We are in front of an exit and maybe he is thinking we will exit and he will prevent us?

Maybe pickup truck guy sees my phone up (as I am going to take a pic of his plate) because he pulls off the exit. He was a white haired man and I think these are probably two men in MLC who are willing to kill themselves to prove who has more chutzpah.

A few minutes later when it is all over I tell h I would have appreciated it if he had driven defensively as I was the one closest to this nut job. H says he was. I said: "I didn't see how it all started." Honestly, in MLC he is a space cadet driver and who knows what he did to this guy. At times he has driven like a racecar driver. By the time I was aware of the situation S and I were sandwiched between two lunatics. When I looked up from my phone h was not giving way to this nut job. And if he were driving defensively he would have backed down.

Then I say: the guy wanted us to hit him. And I say it is best to steer clear from these types. H starts yelling! He tells me I don't know what I am taking about and I should just stay out of it?!? (Umm - well, I was the one who was almost smushed so how exactly do I stay out of that?!?)

Then I ask (shout out to Mleigh): why are you yelling hysterically while I am just talking? He yells back that he is not yelling at me.

S10 asks us to stop fighting and says he doesn't like it. We never fight in front of them and S10 is a particularly sensitive boy. I turn around and stroke him and say it is okay.

Then h says the solution is that I should drive myself from now on. I calmly say: that's really mature. He says it again and I again re-affirm: that's a mature solution. He says confrontation is a good thing. This is all too stupid. Great. You confront each other and we all die in a car crash.

We get home and I go upstairs and just start to cry. I was really scared. I was afraid these two were going to kill me and s. Both kids come up and check up on me. I tell them it is okay but I got really scared. They are super sweet.

I shake myself off and go to drop off my vacuum that is broken. The repairman asks my name and without missing a beat, I give my maiden name and it feels great!!! I have not used that name in 16 years.

I come home and h is in the living room and syrupy sweet. He jokes and is engaging. I am pleasant and cordial. But, I think to myself: you are so nuts that you would have sacrificed me out on that highway to assert your manliness to a perfect stranger. Real men protect people, especially their families. Losers act the way he did.

I am so mad. If he wants to drive like that, he should do it all on his own.

[kml]

Yuk. Reminds me of a time when my Ex was having his crisis, we were driving with the kids to a ski vacation. H's best friend was also driving up with his family in a separate van.
H was speeding and driving so aggressively that even his friend (a fast driver himself) commented on H's driving.

The simmering rage of the depressed MLCer. I bet my ex doesn't remember any of that.

[mleigh4]

I am so sorry you went through that and grateful you were not hurt. Road rage is no joke and definitely something to avoid. I have always thought of it like people get in their car and all of a sudden other vehicles are just metal, not people, children or families. I have seen the nicest people turn angry when driving. Remember the goofy video in driver's ed? He would go from goofy to an angry racecar driver when he got behind the wheel.

I applaud you for letting H know that upset you, it was not cool, especially with you and your son in the car.

My H is an aggressive driver. He could be the biggest jerk and it got worse near his MLC. He would tailgate and speed up when cars were merging in front of him. We had many a fun fight, especially when our child was in the truck. I would ask him, why can't you just be nice and courteous? The same old lady you are tailgating right now, you would hold the door open for? He just didn't get it. It got to be where I would offer to drive, to avoid the drama.

[bttrfly]

Im also grateful you weren't hurt, and am also sorry you had to go thru that. I don't know how you were able to stay cordial after. My Italian temper would have gotten the best of me! How do you feel today?? When I read that you were crying I wished I was there to give you a hug.
{{{ hugs }}}

[job]

My word! MLC and road rage do not mix. I'm glad everyone is okay and I'm glad you told him just how you felt. They do tend to get a bit challenging w/other drivers at times and it will scare the heck out of you. They aren't thinking like adults by as 16 yr olds challenging the other drivers, not thinking about the consequences of their actions.

As for yelling, they don't even realize that they are doing so. You can be talking to them in a very calm voice and out comes the ball field talk from them because they are so emotional over what just happened.

I do hope today is a far better day for you.

[2Times2Many]

Wow HW. I'm so glad nothing serious happened on the road and that you and S are okay.

Based on the comments, that road rage, angry, aggressive driving stuff is apparently common with MLCers. What a disturbing thought ... two MLCers battling on the roadway. Scary.

My H started that angry driving stuff a while before BD and still does it. He weaves in and out of traffic, complains about having to sit at stop lights, drives like a bully, curses other drivers (which of course they don't hear, but I sure do.) When he was here with the assistant, we were all coming back from dinner and he was cursing over just about every driver on the road. I commented in a joking way that he sure seemed to be running into a lot of bad drivers and that I thought they came out while he was here just to p... him off. Assistant cracked up laughing and H settled down.

I'm glad you asked H why he was yelling at you. I agree that Mleigh4 was right ... just ask the question.

Hope your Sunday goes well.

[HaWho]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the kind words. In MLC has has often been a moronically aggressive driver. The difference with yesterday is he met his match. Usually people just get out of his way because they are sane and recognize that his not! I have always told him you don't know who you are messing with and that sure rang true yesterday. Lunatic # 1 met Lunatic # 2.

So last night after I went upstairs (about 9:30) I heard h getting ready to go out. Ugh. Back to the sneakout. Love how he waits 'til I go upstairs. S12 was in the living room and I heard h said "bye I am going out."

In the morning as I am making breakfast h goes over to the boys-very affectionate, nice, etc.

I ask: "did you have fun last night?" He startles a bit and I think he has no idea that I know he went out. He shrugs and says it was ok. I say "oh that's good."

I have to vent. Today I want to throw him out and change the locks. I really do. Between the pots, the wreckless driving incident and the sneaking out I just want him out.

I know this is MLC. But I cannot believe I am one of those women who has such a bozo as my h. I cannot believe this is my h. He is such an utterly unattractive person.

He leaves in a few days for that trip he planned. Where this sort of thing used to have me spin, I cannot wait for him to leave. I know I should have more compassion but this is all so exhaustingly stupid. Just when I think he can't do anything more immature he pulls a rabbit out of that MLC hat.

Oh man, may I have the strength to make it until he leaves. I feel like I am going to blow at him. When he leaves for the trip I imagine myself taking his stupid dorm room and dumping everything on the front lawn and writing a sign "FREE! Take what you want!!"

The thing is I was sensing that he had woken up enough to realize the silliness of what he was doing and so realized that it was not working. Replay is awful!!!

What a bozo.

[job]

You will enjoy the time he is away. In fact, I think you will realize just how much space he's taken up in your head when he's home. You'll be able to keep your kitchen neat and not have to look at dirty pots and dishes. Are you planning to sanitize the dorm room while he's gone?

It takes a lot of effort and patience to deal w/a MLCer living at home. Count your blessings that he's not a nasty one.

The count down is on! How many more days until he leaves?

[HaWho]

He leaves Wednesday. And Job, from your last two posts I suppose you are telling me, ever so gently, that I am stuck. So I am going to work on that.

Yes, I am fortunate that he is not too nasty a one. But, if I posted "the letter" you might see it a bit differently. It rendered the counselor speechless.

Well, speaking of nasty, he is so very angry since I asked him to clean up after himself! Boy, have I paid the price for that!!!

S10 decided to run a lemonade stand today. H was going with him and s asked me to come as well. When h realized I was coming too, he sighed and turned his back to me and dropped his shoulders and I caught him look completely disgusted that I was coming (anything to get away from mean old mom!). He tried to get s to go alone with him!! Awful of him to put s in the middle!! Guess this was some serious teenage attitude.

I offered to bow out but s said: "no, mom is coming. Dad can go with s12." Ouch for h. I know h wanted to do this with s as he considers himself the business minded one. I think s10 just doesn't have that bond with him yet. Not sure I blame him. Just this week h was a 1/2 hr late picking him up at school.

Ok - so this week: I'll be busy with work, playing tennis, hiking in the mornings and then I will have a relaxing few days with kids once h takes the crazy plane out of here. I am looking forward to a drama free weekend. And there is a work party on Saturday that I am popping in on, too.

Thanks Job for the shove.

[Sotto]

Hey HaWho - Ugh, I hate all that driving stuff and I'm so sorry that happened....I can understand how upsetting that must have been.

I'm glad for you that you get to have a break and it sounds much needed! I would suggest making it through to him going and give yourself some breathing space to regroup. Take the peeks for what they were - mini-positives. What happened later doesn't detract from them - they still happened - but he's still baking away with all that comes from that.

I hope you'll plan some nice things for yourself during your 'holiday' xx

[Ginger1]

Maybe this break from him will give you a little better idea of what you can or cannot tolerate anymore.

If you are feeling better, relaxed, and not so much being affected by his insane behaviors, you may find it is time that having an actual separation may be what is best for you. I'm not saying divorce him, I'm just saying, for your sake, he needs to be living elsewhere for a little while so you are not a target for his insanity. maybe he needs to be his own target for a little while.

Enjoy the breathing room while he is gone:)

[HaWho]

Hi Sotto - I think I did get too used to those peeks.

Ginger - I get where you are coming from, I do. Honestly, I am not sure I can really do that to him. If he crossed a major boundary, yes, I would do it. But because he was going through something, about which I am educated, and he was acting according to script? This would be exactly exactly the sort of thing his mother would have done to him as a little boy, too.

And then there is the message to my kids as to why I did that. He is not verbally abusive, physically abusive, there is no proof of an affair, etc. As every male MLCer before him, he is weird.

That is how I feel today anyway. Things can change. And I do need a break.

Thank you Ginger for the temperature read.

[Ginger1]

I completely understand. It is just kind of obvious, even through these borads the effect as it has had. Your decision, I was just throwing that out there, a it is not an impossibility. And I am not saying throw him in the streets.

What you are doing is commendable. No, he isn't physically abusive or verbally, there is such a thing as emotional abuse. I'm not saying that he is emotionally abusing you. I don't think you will let it get to that point.

As far as your kids, a separation to protect yourself in my opinion, would not be sending a bad message. I won't elaborate on that, because you are clearly not there.

Some who are going through the MLC actually go through it and come back out on the other side. Some don't. I know you'll figure out which way it will go.

I wasn't telling you to leave him, just that you od have options that aren't leaving him and that aren't living in the middle of it.

[job]

HaWho,
Actually, telling you that you are stuck never entered my mind. See...mind reading isn't always a good thing. LOL! If I felt you were stuck, I would tell you directly. LOL!

Just like a typical 2 yr old that is teething, he got mad because you told him to clean up after himself. Do your sons clean up after themselves or do you have to remind them to do so? You might need to treat all three "kids" the same way since he's acting like a spoiled brat.

Enjoy that precious time he's away because you never know which personality will come out to play upon his return. I do think that I would open the windows in the dorm room while he's gone to air it out (if there are windows in there)...but put a protective suit on before entering. LOL!

[job]

Also, you need to start a new thread. This posting is 107.

Have a great day!

[mleigh4]

Hi Hawho. You listed many of the reasons I have not been able to file, even though I am so bored of my H issues and so tired of the ups and downs, peek outs and running back to tunnels, it's so draining and you should be proud of yourself for what you have put up with.

They are smart, our H's. They have us in this grey area, it makes it hard to have such a choice left to us to figure out.

I am looking forward, for you!, to have your H gone for a bit. I think the breathing room is overdue for all of you. Enjoy it.

[HaWho]

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