(Terry Jones): I think she's dead.

[LoisB]

Episode Two of 'The Death of Mary, Queen of Scots,' can be heard on Radio Four almost immediately.

(Music, then the sound of saw cutting, and other violent sounds as before, with the woman screaming. Suddenly it is silent).

Man's Voice (Terry Jones): I think she's dead.

Woman's Voice: No I'm not!

Hey Guys :-)

It's been a bit. Had a situation today which I thought may enlighten folks in MLC-CrazyLand.

I needed to take a time out and collect myself. The last time I checked in, I was very raw and felt like every nerve ending was exposed. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Honestly, I was very new to some big changes and felt a bit exposed and overly sensitive.

Anyway, things are going well and slowly falling into place. Job is going really well. They seem to really love me. I've been offered more hours. Still very active in my strict Debtor's Anonymous program and my financial life has calmed down by leaps and bounds. Still have a ways to go, but the program is working and I'm sticking to it.

So, for today... About a month or so ago, my oldest daughter, now 21, confided that she is smoking marijuana daily... yes, like her dad. I can't say I'm surprised and that was always what I suspected when she left NY. I knew that, if she had a problem with substances, heading back to the college campus would bring it to light.

Still painful, though, and brought up a lot of memories with Matt. Haven't heard from him in about a month. He has cut off contact with Louisa, now 13, completely. He hasn't seen her in almost two years, come May.

Well, with D21's confession of chronic marijuana use, I stepped way back. I'm very guarded with her and protective of what small, settled life Louisa and I have built. And, she has begun to spin a bit. She is feeling very alone and my mom and stepdad took the vehicle they helped her lease... once they found out, from me, that she is using again.

She hadn't paid on the car since they drove it from the lot. They had made the payments.

Cal is feeling very alone. So, she reached out to her grandmother. Matt's mom. I thought the reaction was really telling and illuminating, especially since I've had no contact with his family in more than two years.

The girls haven't seen their grandparents in 2.5 years. For Louisa, it may be more like 3.5. So, Cal sends a Facebook friendship request.

She hasn't seen her grandmother in two years and this was a family that used to worship my older daughter. They went on countless vacations, spent loads of time together... they were almost overly-involved in her life and I had to set some boundaries. At one point, my MIL said, "I wish we could just keep Cal and raise her."

So, Cal sends this request. An olive branch. They know nothing of her drug use. They just haven't seen their grand-daughter in a very long time and this is the response she received:

"Dear Callaway, With your friend request I feel there are questions that require answers. In the fall of 2013 you received 2 phone calls with messages and 2 texts from me (marked sent). I was inquiring about our shopping date over Thanksgiving break for a winter coat. Now, almost 2.5 years later I've received this request. Why? You took yourself out of our life. Why the change??????"

Cold much?

Maybe this is why Matt is who he is?

It really shook me up. After all this time, that's the response she gives a grandchild...

I'm still on guard with Cal, but I've repeated how much I love her probably more now than ever.

Just thought it was interesting in light of Matt's crisis, in light of many of the MLCs where Mom seems to be dominant, uncaring and lacking empathy.

[job]

I'm glad you returned to post an update. I'm glad things are going well with your job and you are continuing to attend the Debtor's Anonymous Program. I'm sure you are learning a lot about the triggers and also meeting some really nice people.

I'm very sorry to read about Cali. She's certainly changed a bit and even after knowing what her father has done to the family to pick up the "Weed" habit isn't good. I know you are very much aware of the "addictive" personality and how some of that can be inherited. I think you are very wise to step back and not trust her.

No matter the relationship between your mom and you, she did the right thing in taking the leased car back. I honestly don't blame them for doing so. Isn't Cali still working when she's not going to college? I guess she now figures that she can't go to your mother for help when it comes to finances. I'm surprised she's not reached out to your father.

I'm not surprised that she's reached out to Matt's mother. Why? Because she knows that she was the favorite granddaughter and figures she can get not only emotional support from her, but possible financial help too at some point.

Actually, I think Matt's mother is spot on in asking her questions about not hearing from her for a few years and why now? What's changed? I don't think that Matt's mother was lacking empathy or being cold when she asked Cali the questions that she did. It's been a long time since she and Cali have had any contact and yes, there were several phone and text messages sent to Cali and she chose not to respond to them. So, in her grandmother's eyes, Cali made the decision to cut all ties. Cali is going to have to honest w/her and tell her why she's chosen to reach out at this point in her life. She can't just waltz back into these people's lives and say "here I am". I do think Cali owes them an explanation and even an apology for not returning the calls and/or test messages...but this is their relationship to work out and hopefully the fences can be mended...but time will tell.

I do hope that my opinion of what the grandmother stated doesn't upset you...but I would have eventually asked the same questions after I had been "dissed" for a few years. It's human nature to wonder "why now"?

Continue to tell Cali that you love her and hopefully she'll get her act together. She is a very intelligent young lady and I would hate to see her throw her life away on drugs and alcohol. I know you know the drill...don't enable her and do not bail her out financially...you've got to take care of yourself and Louisa.

Please take care of yourself.

[LoisB]

Thanks Job. It was nice to read your post :-)

I agree about the car.

I'm not sure what I think. I have a long history with this woman and... it's the rest of the story and my instincts which are screaming out. I have a hard time with my MIL accepting no responsibility with the collapse of that relationship... knowing that she blames Louisa too for not continuing contact... even though I invited my inlaws to our home, repeatedly, to spend time with both girls and they ignored me. They also say Louisa cut ties, even though she was only nine when all of this went down and she has gone years without seeing her father, which makes it much harder to maintain a relationship with HIS parents. Still, no one in his family holds him responsible. Cal remains an easy target. They have been crying that she is ungrateful since this began and they cry the same river for Louisa...

Cal was a troubled teen. I posted much of the drama on here. My inlaws were helpful at first... but, when she began to turn things around, they weren't anywhere close to helping me with getting her into college or helping with the expenses. They've pretended that we didn't exist, because they could turn the other way. If you remember, one of the reasons I left Ohio was because they were spreading rumors in our town that I had cut them and Matt off from his kids.

I begged them at one point to help me with the divorce because I wasn't getting regular child support and they closed themselves off to our reality.

I feel conflicted on this one. I have such a long history of this woman being cold and harsh with me and my girls. She was always in charge of everything--our marriage/our parenting--and cut people out with no regard for anyone's feelings, but her own. I know Cal is a basket case right now... but, I think her grandmother's response is par for the course. There's such a long history with my MIL.

Apparently, now, the pressure is on for Cal to respond. I figured Cal was in contact with Matt... it all makes sense. She feels alone, she is using, she knows my mom won't help, I won't help and my dad is questionable... So, Matt is the obvious next person in her alcoholic mind to reach out to... the father who uses marijuana daily and hasn't been there for her in years. What's hard is all of the pieces of MY life that I'm sure Cal has shared with Matt. I know that when my daughter feels desperate she throws everyone under the bus, including me.

The next part shows me that nothing has really changed. Grandma is still calling the shots in his life.

I received a text this morning from Cal...

"Dad called me and told me I have to respond to Grandma ASAP."

Its' sorta our marriage in a nutshell. Grandma... the center of the universe is now on alert and requires action. Matt will take the stand to defend his mother because that's what he does. He does what he is told... when his mother dictates.

This will be interesting. I'm not responding to Cal's text. She invited this crazee back into her life. SHE needs to handle it. If she presses. That's my take.

Still, it's like them coming back into my life... even though it's indirect and I feel the panic of... "What will they do? How will I get hurt this time?"

[LoisB]

Meant to say... "Not sure what I think about MIL..."

But, I agree about the car. In fact, my mom has waffled a bit on the car, considering giving it back... I'm not supporting that. I know her grades are still okay and she is working two jobs... But, bottom line... Cal is using.

[LoisB]

What happened to edit?

[job]

Heather,
I don't blame you for not responding to Cali's text about her father stating that granny is waiting for a response. Cali opened the door on this one and now she's got to figure things out. After all, she is now 21 and considered an adult and she needs to learn to make adult decisions and not rely on everyone else bailing her out each time she goes down into the rabbit hole. I know it hurts to see your daughter in this situation, but sometimes tough love is the only way to go. You love her, you tell her you love her, but she's got to get herself out of the mess she's now created on her own.

Heather, you have worked too hard to allow Matt, Cali and his family to draw you back into their drama. Step way back and love her from afar. And, yes, I do remember how Cali tends to throw people under the bus when she is desperate...don't go down into the rabbit hole w/her. She has to hit bottom before she'll surface again.

Continue w/your life and be there for Louisa. I know you'll stay in touch w/Cali, but be careful in what you post to her. I would hate to see her throw you under the bus again.

I'm very sorry that her situation hasn't improved. I had such high hopes that she would get her life together. I still pray that she will...but again, no one can help her until she helps herself and that may be hitting bottom very hard and realizing that she have lost a lot along the way.

[LoisB]

I know. It's so painful. He's been chronically using for decades and hasn't hit bottom... even with the additional alcohol abuse and losing his family. Literally. How long will it take her to get honest?

It's like watching Matt all over again. Only, this time, Cal is trying to ally herself with him in order to justify her own lifestyle. And, she is behaving in her addiction, like he did. But, she didn't start as early as he did, age 12, and I've made sure she had some severe consequences when she used... jail, car taken, no mama coming to the rescue, kicking her out in NY when she refused A.A. and/or counseling. She has some A.A. under her belt and the seed was planted.

I'm also not nearly as codependent with her as with her dad, so it's healthier in terms of my stepping back and allowing her to feel the hard stuff without my cushioning the pain.

I guess, if I'm going to look at the good side of things... Cal is a reminder to me of how Matt's addiction played a role in all of this insanity. Her behavior is so similar and feels like a flashback into conversations and frustrations I had for decades with his drug and alcohol use... And, how fruitless it was trying to convince someone to stop something they were so invested in continuing.

Also, I've been reminded of how miserable and demanding and crazee his family is. And, how much I wanted out of that insanity.

I said to Cal the other day... When she sent me, yet another lecture on the benefits of regular marijuana use... I told her that she can do what she pleases, but I have decades of experience that won't sway my opinion... I had to listen to the daily bronchial coughing of her dad. I held his hand the countless times he tried to stop smoking and dealt with his anger and mood swings whenever he tried to give it up... I talked to him about his marijuana use last summer when he realized he could quit and possibly save his family before heading to the final divorce hearing... And, yet, he still couldn't quit. In my eyes, that spells addiction.

She responded. "I understand more than you will ever know."

How sad. But, still she following the same path.

So stubborn. So much like her dad. And, again, using to try to re-establish a connection to someone who treated her so badly. Kills me.

[job]

Heather,

I'm going to ask you a couple of questions and I'd like you to think about it for a while before responding. Okay? Do you think Cali is trying to understand what he father did w/his life? Do you think that what she's doing right now is her way of trying to get her father's attention?

I feel for you. You've already been down this road w/Matt and now Cali is traveling that road. I pray that she'll stop w/the "justifications" for why she's using and get some help. It's disheartening to watch a young lady, who is highly intelligent, ruin her life like this.

I'm keeping you and your family in my thoughts and prayers. You've had so much on your plate for so long and I had high hopes that things would finally settle down when you moved "south".

Please take care of yourself.

[123Gwen]

Heather - so good to hear from you even though I wish your post was only full of rainbows and unicorns. In other words, I am sorry you are having to work through these emotions and issues with your oldest daughter. As a casual observer I think Cali is working through her own emotions at an age that is hard for most people. Be consistent with those boundaries but if she is talking with you and working two jobs and keeping up her grades then perhaps she is struggling but not in full blown crisis. As for the grandma I agree with Job. Cali was not necessarily wrong to step away from her grandparents at the time but she has to be able to explain her honest motivations for reconnection now. I mean isn't that the same standard you would have for her father?

Being able to voice your needs, state your boundaries and own your choices while accepting the consequences and understanding you can't control other people and/or situations. That is the standard for maturity and a great foundation to build trust. Honesty, authenticity and communication.

Hang in there. How do you like living in your new city (actually not so new anymore)? So happy you are feeling good about work. So glad you posted.

[LoisB]

Past Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2636815&page=1

Yes. Job, I do believe and have believed for some time that Cal has some deep issues to work through with her dad. Her own leanings toward addiction have mixed all that baggage up. She misses me, misses us... but refuses to let go of her current lifestyle and that's okay. Apparently, she has a new tattoo.

Scares the hell outta me how long she will be experimenting with this lifestyle and scares me about how Matt will play a part in it... Matt has struggled with this lifestyle for decades... Will she spend time with Skank OW? Will they all use together? So far, I've managed to keep my girls away from that insanity and now, Cal, is inviting it into her life.

She didn't respond to her grandmother, but received a Happy Easter. She responded with a Happy Easter.

I think it's best I keep my nose outta this stuff with Cal. My life is settling down. Easter was wonderful. Life is becoming normal and the MLC crazee is slowly drifting into background.

He sent Louisa a nice Easter card. I sent a short text telling him she appreciated the card and she is saving it. I received no response. Now, that I know he has been talking to Cal daily, it makes sense I would get no response. Matt tends to fixate on one of us and that's it.

Louisa has shut down the iPad texting app where she communicated with him. It was their only mode of communication. After the Christmas outreach to all three of us, when he promised again how much he missed all of us and wanted to make changes, but was stuck... She sort shut him out. It's almost 2 years since he saw Louisa.

Okay. I've been thinking about my oldest and her current issues with substance abuse and her dad. Last night, she revealed he is calling her daily. I've stepped away from her life to some extent since she told me of the regular marijuana use. I will text her an "I love you" and things like that, but I'm not playing the part of mom who helps her figure out a plan of action for different problems or whatever. I'm done setting myself up and playing the role of cheerleader, secretary, coach, etc... I've been there and done that and I've been burned.

I sorta figured she reached out to her dad... she has seemed really desperate lately, but it was a mixed bag of emotion to hear that this man who went AWOL on our lives is now a daily presence in her life... when she is vulnerable. Still, this is her bag to sort through. I didn't ask any questions about what they discuss or any details. I know she has to work through this.

My PTSD radar went off with a submarine dive alarm. And, I've been sorting through the feelings ever since.

Feeling One... I'm scared of his hurting us again. When oldest D is desperate for someone to fix things... she will throw anyone under the bus, including me. She has... that means Matt may now know about my being fired and our living situation in Asheville--housesharing, etc... in other words, he may know the sordid details of my life which I hate.

I know this man is a loaded barrel of midlife crisis, depression and addiction. When I have time away from him I feel such anxiety when he comes back into our lives. Sending the text about the Easter card filled me with fear. I know this is a normal reaction. I did feel the card warranted some validation for reaching out nicely to Louisa. He mentioned me in the card and wished all of us a Happy Easter.

Feeling Two

Talking to Cal was weird. We were laughing and talking and she sounds like the daughter I love and adore. However, she, then, tells me about her conversations with her dad and I know she is using and my trust level just drops to the bottom of the bucket. I sense my walls thicken and I shut down... I don't trust her a bit and that hurts. I've always suspected she had some need that was driving her to work through issues with her dad via the drugs.

The bottom line fear... He will take someone else I love away. I will be hurt again. I will be betrayed again... only this time by my daughter and Matt.

I know some of those fears are my past experiences talking, but, none-the-less, those are the fears. He will hurt me again and, this time, Cal will be are part of it.

All I can do is to continue to protect Louisa and I. Move forward with our lives and get settled more and more.

We had a wonderful Easter. The best we've had in many years. When Matt and addiction and his parents creep back into our lives... I find myself so blessed to be away from all that insanity.

I like living transparently without having to read into what people are thinking, doing, saying about me and wondering about the lies and secret drug use and the secrets... all the secrets and backstabbing and hurt.

[job]

Heather,
I'm glad that you and Louisa had a nice Easter. It's been a long time coming.

Quiet the fear you are feeling about your xh. I don't think he will disrupting your world as he's got enough on his plate right now. Put the fear aside in thinking that he will take Cali away from you. Cali is inviting him into her life all by herself and the drugs aren't helping w/that at all. Cali is the one that has reached out to him and the MIL from h@ll. She's 21 and is making choices that only she will have to face the consequences of her actions. You can't protect her any longer as she's grown woman. Yes, you can love her from afar, listen and sometimes validate what she tells you, but you already know that you can't trust her because she will toss you under the bus once again. You will need to utilize your db techniques when dealing w/her.

As for what has transpired in your life over the last couple of years, I wouldn't worry about what they think. You struggled and lived on a shoe string budget w/no help from Matt, his parent or Cali. From where I'm sitting, they have nothing to brag about in the way that they are living. At least you tried to keep a stable home life and certainly didn't drink or do drugs by any means. You are human and have been willing to own your mistakes and do better.

As for where you are now, you are happy and taking control over your life. You have a job that you like and you are sharing a home w/someone else which means less rent for you to pay. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Cali needs to fly solo, i.e., make mistakes and learn from them. Eventually all of them will see each other for who they are and that's when Cali may come to terms w/what her father did and continues to do...but she's going to have to hit bottom hard before that happens. Until then...love her from afar and be cautious in what you share w/her.

[HaWho]

Heather - what a GREAT post you just wrote on Bttrfly's thread. You are such a strong writer! Decided to jump over here to thank you for something.

One of the things I have learned from you is that feeling anger is good. You have written, probably in multiple places, that anger propels us forward. This really resonated with me. I think too often, as little girls, we are programmed to be peacemakers and not to express anger. It has taken me years to relearn to have a healthy attitude with a very healthy emotion.

What I have learned is that anger is the most primal emotion we feel. I often felt other emotions when anger should have surfaced first. Not good. So, when we are taught to bury it or not taught how to express it, we soon become doormats. Just want to tell you that you helped me in this way and it was a biggie! So thank you.

I am amazed by your fortitude.

[LoisB]

Thank you Ha :-) You're pretty amazing yourself.

I was offered a promotion on Friday. It's been scary how things are falling into place... a lot of hard work, but also sorta easily and effortlessly. Hard to explain.

I need to journal a bit...

Had a long talk with my oldest daughter today. It was the first time we've talked like this since she told me she was smoking marijuana regularly. I've been giving her some space. Protecting myself.

It was a reassuring and good conversation as far as my daughter is concerned. I left the conversation feeling she is doing what she needs to do in order to put some closure on her dad's behavior and learn how to be a grown up on her own terms.

She said she wants to understand how someone can do the things he has done. I listened. I validated.

It was also nice to get honest with her that I see a lot of alcoholic traits and I am careful with my heart where she is concerned. She told me she is still in counseling and admits she will act manipulative and charming when she needs something, even if it means hurting someone she loves. It was nice to hear her own that.

She is talking to her dad almost daily and she said she needed to talk to me about her dad... it was hard for me. I listened.

But, I feel pretty confident today her drug use and reaching out to her dad is a part of her trying to find some peace with her dad's actions and absence in her life.

Apparently, her pothead friends have talked to him on the phone and say, "Wow, your dad is so cool." Cal said, "Well, yeah, if you are interested in a buddy-buddy, 25-year-old for a dad."

It's like two kids, around the same age, trying to find their way in life. Where do I fit. Cal mentioned several times how her dad is about 25. I guess he even mentioned it himself.

Even when we were married, Matt seemed to go through these cycles... he would cycle between personalities. I think he is stuck in this 18-25 old developmental stage where he is trying to sort out where he fits in relation to his very controlling parents. I think he's been stuck there for many years and it became a crisis when he reached midlife.

And, now, Cal, is age-appropriately, doing the same thing. After my youngest, Louisa, talked to Cal on the phone... it's been months since they spoke... Louisa said, "It's like she is two different people... the Cal we know and this other Cal who thinks smoking weed is okay and is all dumb."

Tonight, however, I heard more of the daughter I know is inside her best self.

It was still really hard to hear about Matt's life. I guess he invited Cal to spend a weekend at his apartment on the lake. He wants to smoke weed with her... "Mom, I'm still aware, that this is really gross. My dad wants to bond with me over a bowl."

I guess he told her that "his roommate" would be there. And, when Cal told him that she can't guarantee she would be nice to said roommate, Matt told Cal, "It's not her fault." That hurt.

That hurts a lot. He said that in marriage counseling. "OW is a good lady."

He cycles. He hits these points where he has all these regrets and, then, he goes back to blaming me for everything. I guess he's is back to blaming me. Skank is back to being a "good lady."

And, having regular conversations and something in common with Cal has brought me back under fire.

I guess when his mom wanted Cal to respond, he actually wrote out a script for her to follow. In the script, Cal was supposed to say that "My mother" was responsible for my not reaching out to you. Really. Not how I remember it.

Cal told him he cannot script that conversation or any conversation and he cannot use my name or talk about me because he wasn't there and doesn't know what went down.

When I joined these boards, I remember being told that I should put all my memories in a box and lock it tight, tuck it safely away. When I hear about Matt's life and hear where his head is at... it's sorta like a bunch of ninjas attack that box. He's no longer the man that was so special to me and all those special memories feel tarnished.

Okay. That helped. Maybe those memories aren't tarnished... and, somewhere deep, very deep... the Matt I knew is still there. I do believe I will see him again... but, it may be 10 more years down the road.

Hearing Cal describe how he comes home from work and smokes a bowl of weed and has no money and wants to take her jet-skiing with his new life... I guess he is back on a high with his divorced, 25-year-old lifestyle.

Funny. I'm pretty sure I'm a very different woman than I was four years ago... Matt sounds the same.

Really, truly, do not want that man in my life today. But, the pain of hearing he is continuing to choose this woman, this life over us... that still hurts.

[LoisB]

But, weird... I feel it calls for a postscript... The whole dual personalities and trying to find the one which fits??

When we were married, I felt, A LOT, like he was always trying to sort out if he fit with me or the life his parents wanted for him. When he left, he chose the lifestyle and a woman much like his mom.

Always this feeling of him choosing... Me or the other lifestyle. Waiting to be the chosen one. Weird.

I can see it more clearly now. It's all about figuring out where you fit in the world, which is something you're supposed to do in your early twenties, right?

Cal is doing this. At 21. Somedays, she will text me about being the best mom ever. Next day, I can't believe you let me down about such-and-such. She is digesting her life, her parents, figuring out where she fits.

Matt got stuck there. He will be 50 next year and he is still stuck in this early twenties place.

You look hard at your parents... Sometimes you embrace them completely for who they are... you face the fact they are humans and imperfect... you confront where they messed up... you look at yourself and what you want and you find some collective blend of it all to create an adult life.

He seems so tormented by his parents and their influence. He went so far as to create a script for his daughter to use in order to appease his mother. That's weird. He's freakin fifty.

[LoisB]

I woke up with more thoughts.

Interesting how, four years, he has shown little to no interest in keeping up communication with our kids. But, since Cal has confided about the pot use, he calls her friend's phone to talk and offers to go and pick her up to spend time with her.

[BrightFuture]

Hi Heather, I’ve been reading your updates. Congratulations on the offer of promotion! I hope you get it. You’ve done an amazing job getting to where you are now.

I really don’t know what tell you about your D21 though. I think most of the young adults experiment with pot at one time or another, just not everyone admits it. It is just a matter how much she is using. You said she admitted to using it every day. This is still not the end of the world. I know some people who did it for a while and then it got “old” and they stopped.

For your daughter this could be more than just experimenting, because of her Dad and everything that came with him smocking. I would be concerned too. But, what I also thought when I was reading your update is at 21 she is an adult. I think your xh didn’t have any contact with her before because she was reminding him of his responsibilities. He didn’t want to have these responsibilities. Now, she is grown up, so he feels that he is not responsible for her, but she is his daughter, and naturally he wants to bond with her. I don’t know if I’m expressing this good enough. It is like with my H. He never wanted the kids on his own, he did his best raising my son. He imposed the restrictions on certain behavior when my son was a teenager, including the drinking. But now, he has no problems hanging at the bar and drinking beers with my son. Still a little guarded, but this is just my H (deep in MLC, etc.)

I’m not sure if I’m making any sense here. Heather, I completely understand your concern for your D21, given the history. I also understand you stepping back and letting your D21 to make her own choices. I hope your daughter figures it out. After all, she has great example in her Mom.

[bttrfly]

Heather congratulations on your promotion. I hope you take it. You've worked so hard and come so far in this short time (i know it doesn't feel short, but really 4 years isn't that long in the broadest scheme of things)

Kids will be kids. What's normal for Cal to do at 21 is so not normal for a 50 year old to do. I'm glad she sees that.

Best to watch and wait. This pot smoking could be a phase. If it turns out to be something more, you are there for her. I know this is harder to do as a parent than for me to type here.

Sending you hugs and love and light
xoxoxo

[job]

Congratulations on the promotion. BTW, you are a very different person than you were three/four years ago. You've become more settled, don't panic about things so quickly, calmer and have become more of an active listener and offer up sage advice. You've become more independent and try not to rely on others to rescue you and yes, you've ventured forth into the business world, a world that you may have been afraid to get into because you enjoyed staying at home and having little contact w/people. Just look at all you've accomplished! Yes, you've had some ups and downs and made mistakes, but you've learned from them. Never doubt yourself.

As for Cali, she's young, they experiment and they have to have the time to learn things on their own. If we molly coddle them too much...they won't learn from their mistakes like they should. I'm hoping that she can get herself together and go on to a great career and life...but it's going to take her some time to figure herself out on her own.
Continue to listen and validate...but do not bail her out. Make her think things through for herself and if she asks for your opinion, then tell her like it is and let it be.

[123Gwen]

Just wanted to wish a loving mom a good Mother's Day Weekend. Thinking of you and hoping you get to enjoy the day in a meaningful way.

[LoisB]

Hey Everyone,

Time for an update.

Today would have been our 25th wedding anniversary. And, I'm okay. July 4th marked four years since Louisa and I happened upon Matt and Skank broken down on the side of the road on our way to fireworks. He had kept the OW secret for 6 months at the time. Honestly, I don't think I thought about that incident once on July 4th. Not once.

Had we stayed together, I would have been celebrating 25 years with a man who abused substances off and on for the duration of our marriage, lied to me regularly, was emotionally unavailable and abusive pretty much daily and could never seem to get that whole being a kind, caring adult in a relationship thing. Chances are, I would have spent the day alone, like I spent most of our momentous holidays... Alone and disappointed.

So, instead, I'm going to "Step Up" in D.A. today, which means I'm going to be able to sponsor others who struggle with compulsive debt. I will be able to serve in a more active role after 6 months of working this very strict D.A. program.

Things aren't perfect, I still have some mountains to climb... But, luckily! I live in the Smokey Mountains and I'm getting fitter and able to handle the climbing, both figuratively and literally.

We moved into a beautiful, gated apartment north of Asheville. I still don't have a car and, after six months of no car, I'm getting anxious to rememdy this. A co-worker likes to flip old Volvos and has one he is willing to sell for $1200. Trying to figure it out. I'm still earning below what I would like to earn in order to create a more fabulous life for Louisa and I... but, we are getting there. I'm in charge of two newspapers and the legals department for this small newspaper company. The pay is low, with no benefits, but it's given me a chance to heal some and build my skills and daily work ethic slowly. They are paying the max of what they can handle and I have some flexibility with my schedule.

Still have to work on GAL. Not having a car plays a role in this. But, even without a car, Louisa and I have had some serious fun since moving here. There is a strong local Al-Anon group I'd like to attend once I get a car and there's a million fun things to do.

There was a missed child support payment in May. I felt very different from the woman I was four years ago. I called the CSA ASAP. They called Matt's employer. There hasn't been any missed payments since. However, they still owe me the missing payment. CSA actually said the payment was lost in the mail??? Seriously.

And, they have to wait a period of time to re-request the money before I will see it. Stupid. I love how this system protects the deadbeats and not the kids. But, it's only $307.80 and I did what I can do for now.

Matt hasn't seen Louisa now in two full years as of May.
Cal is still talking with him, but it's about every two weeks.

On Father's Day, I texted a picture of Louisa swimming. No reply. He has gone back to silence with me. I get the impression he has thrown himself into his adolescent lifestyle with a fresh energy since signing divorce papers last fall and my boundary at Christmas that I am no longer available for his holiday texts and cards filled with "I'm sorry and want to come home... blah, blah, blah..." I told him at Christmas that his old life is no longer waiting and I haven't heard a thing since.

About a month ago, Cal asked me in desperation to come get her and bring her to Asheville. I agreed, with the understanding she would only be able to stay with us for 3 weeks and she'd have to pay me $225 to just get down here.

I sense she is trying to make some big changes and she is unhappy with herself, however, she still claims she is happier than she has ever been. Not quite what I'm seeing, but okay. And, according to Cal, marijuana is simply a misunderstood harmless drug. She agreed to abstain while living with me and has now started dreaming again... a sign that she is indeed pot free.

I picked her up on Friday.

Apparently, Matt was upset because he had planned on coming to pick her up and take her jet-skiing on Lake Erie at his apt with he and skank.

The man had 1.5 years to visit Cal at her college in PA. Not one visit. He didn't make the effort. And, Cal felt guilty for upsetting him. Amazing how he can push those buttons.

Since Cal has been here, I've learned pieces of her life which make me so sad. She has been stealing food at grocery stores to eat. I love her, but I cannot allow this girl with all her problems to live with us long... If she commits to a drug-free lifestyle with help and humility maybe. But, she hasn't as of yet.

I'm sticking close to my sponsor and other 12-steppers on this one.

She has also been a reminder of the life I used to live with an active addict. Always wondering if I'm being lied to. Am I being used? Of course I am.

Dealing with moodiness and negativity and judgment about the lives of others, while her own life is pretty nuts. Things I had forgotten. Having conversations with someone who is adept at making ME feel crazy.

I said to her the other day... "No matter how bad it's gotten, it can get worse." The old Heather would have never said anything like that. She got upset and I told her... it's important to understand you are responsible for your life and if things are bad... you need to make things right. I'm not sugar-coating. This kid was already starving and counting on the kindness of other weed-loving friends to get through the day. I'm not supporting this habit or her.

I prayed hard about picking her up. My own family has been so lacking when it comes to actually being there for me. I appreciate how they helped me financially, but they are so not available in any other way. I needed my daughter to see I will be there, but she is an adult and is responsible for her own life.

One cool thing... my kids see me as bada$$. They look at how I've walked through the fire and I'm still standing. While I'm not stupid to overlook the fact that Asheville makes for a great location to any pothead... I can see my daughter is also here to try and get things sorted out for herself. I can see my behavior is different and she has said she wants to learn how I manage money and how I'm acting the adult now.

Plan on keeping my mouth shut and just continue walking the walk for her to watch.

Anyway, that's what's happening here at Lake Wobegon. I read pretty regularly. Hard to see the new families joining and starting this journey.

At the same time, I would've never known how bada$$ I am if the old pothead ex had stuck around to sleep and NOT get things done around the house :-)

[HaWho]

Heather - it's good to hear an update from you.

I just wanted to say that I think one of the very best things you are doing is differentiating yourself from your ex. It may take your older daughter a long time to understand and fully appreciate the different parenting style you are offering. However, I do believe one day she will compare what was "normal" at her dad's and what is "normal" with you.

Sometimes, I think it requires them to raise their own children to "get it." My step MIL used to smoke up with my h. He was in 3rd grade and she would get high with him and then light candles and let him take a bath stoned. When he first told me this, I was outraged at how she abused her power as an adult to be his friend. Never mind that he could have drowned! He saw it as "normal." Thankfully he went the athletic route in middle and high school and was never into drugs beyond that.

Many, many years ago, when my oldest was in 3rd grade (and I think h was already somewhere in MLC), out of the blue, he finally "got it," how wrong it was for her to do that with a child. He saw what a 3rd grader is and they are SO little and SO pure.

Keep going and kudos to you in stepping up to sponsor. I know you'll be great at it!

[LoisB]

Ha, that's heart-breaking to hear about your MIL's drug use with your very young H. Wow. Ick and wow.

Taking a few days off from work for some R&R. Things are going well... Sorta feeling like the wrinkles in my life are flattening out.

D22 is doing well. She is working at the downtown YMCA, has already received a raise and they have her in mind for a promotion. I'm attending Al-anon again and working hard at allowing her to make her own life. I did tell her that I'm not comfortable with her using any drugs, while living with me. I see flashes of a grown woman, which is a HUGE relief. She is still very angry, but I see it lessening. Hoping she can be in her how place within the next few months.

Still loving the Blue Ridge Mountains. My job sorta [censored], but I'm paying my bills and getting to a good place where I can make some changes... planning to ease out of this company and work for myself. I've created a pretty solid support system with DA and the daily accountability is making a huge difference financially. Still have a ways to go to get where I want us to be, but, today, I'm feeling confident.

Opted out of a family vacay with my mom. Took a lot of prayer and support and feedback from friends, but I decided being with my mom and stepdad wasn't the best place for me right now. My mom has pretty much been absent from my life since I left Ohio. At times, when things were rough, I begged her to come just spend time with us and help me with Louisa. She didn't. Trying to forgive.

She planned this "family" vacation and put tons of pressure on me to come. She offered to rent a car and help financially... All of which felt like "Heather the victim" again. I was honest and told her how it felt about 50 times... all of which was ignored. Finally, I told her, if she really wanted to help, I explained how I was saving for a vehicle, which could make a huge difference in our lives and I needed to put wheels before vacations. I was clear that a car would help me maintain our livelihood, etc... After some condescending remarks about my past debting behavior and other mistakes, and jokes at my and D22's expense, she never came through with any gifts to help with the car. She did, however, tease with... "If I rent a car and you come to vacation, I can give you birthday money."

I decided against it. Just didn't feel right. Not to mention, I couldn't see myself being jovial with stepdad who abused us all so terribly and cheated on my mom twice. I'm sorry it hurt my mom. Getting some clarity on my relationship with my mom.

I've noticed that when I face, get honest about the neglect I experienced as a kid with two very selfish parents--I lose any interest in Matt. He becomes a non-issue. In fact, my life sorta makes more sense, when I look at it from the standpoint of what I learned very early.

Last interaction with Matt was about a month ago. There was this strange, front-page, national story about a vintage vehicle--only 47 in existence--found in an Ohio barn. When Matt and I were first married, he saw the vehicle when making a lumber delivery.

Anyway, I texted him the link to the story. He responded with a short question... I gave a one word reply. He asked about the girls. I gave him two sentences. Said D22's move to Asheville was a transition and D13 was doing OK. He said... "Well, good luck."

I know he is communicating with D22 about every 2 weeks. I don't ask questions though. She offers the info here-and-there. She said he is broke and will be paying off his atty for quite a few years.

I need to contact legal aid to see about revising the tax dependent part of our D settlement. He's going on three years since seeing Louisa. I want to see if I can get the dependency status switched to me annually, as opposed to every other year.

I'm more able to see how broken he is. Still have moments when I consider opening up communication in some way. Maybe out of pity? Sadness?? Longing to have a history with someone? Loneliness? It passes though and I don't. Then, will get hit with a wave of anger at how he's treated the girls in particular.

Life is good though. I wish it hadn't taken so long to face some of these issues, but it is what it is.

[kml]

I need to contact legal aid to see about revising the tax dependent part of our D settlement. He's going on three years since seeing Louisa. I want to see if I can get the dependency status switched to me annually, as opposed to every other year.

Is he paying child support? If so, I rather doubt you can change this without his consent, as it's really about the financial obligations not the social ones.

If, on the other hand, he's not paying his child support, you should have an excellent case.

Congrats too on sticking the the Debtors Anonymous stuff. Can you start putting some money away from side jobs to save up for a car? Did you ever look at the mrmoneymustache website?

As for your mom - best not to take anything more from her, the strings attached are too much. And although she whined, she will probably respect you more in the long run for making the right financial decision for you (or not - she's pretty toxic after all.) If she's really dying to see the girls she knows where you live.

[LoisB]

Hi Ellie :-)

I've put some away. Mr. Moneymustache has some great tips. We are looking at an old Volvo this weekend, which would suit our purposes and I could avoid a car payment.

I'm feeling more confident about myself and my next move is to increase our income.

Yep. My mom is just who she is. I feel sad for missing the family thing, and don't. I have three days off without having to go anywhere, something I think I've really needed.

[123Gwen]

So good to hear from you Heather. Sounds like you are really making some wonderful changes and getting stronger. Bravo my friend.

I completely understand your point about clarity and confronting things in your life. I wore my rose colored glasses for a long time and finally seeing things in a true light has been so difficult but much more authentic.

Glad your girls are busy and also refusing to wear rose colored glasses. It isn't easy but facing things now is going to be easier in the long run.

My H is still ghosting his D's and me. No surprised but H's treatment of our girls has been hard to forgive. Glad your girls see that you are a bada** and you have their back.

Hang in there and keep us updated. Much love and peace.
-123Gwen

[LoisB]

Matt thought Louisa was turning 15. She turns 14 Aug. 31. Her sister told her. I wish she hadn't. She was crying yesterday about that and other things... then, Cal grieved some. I guess it was good, we needed to feel some of the pain still. But, I'm tired of seeing my kids hurt. Things are leveling out, still the residual.

Texted Matt: Louisa will be 14, not 15.

I received a response... I know. And, you are turning 48. Smiley face.

Makes me feel nauseous.

[123Gwen]

Understand. I quit texting - email only and only about something that is essential (i.e. money or health crisis).

No contact is much more peaceful and my girls have been disappointed but that is his issue with them. Yes it is sad to accept that you can't shield them from it but stepping away allows you to comfort them without enabling the dysfunctional parent child relationship.

[LoisB]

Thanks Gwen,

How are YOU??

Yes. No contact is really peaceful.

It's hard in it's own way, but not a hard I can't handle--I still struggle with pushing thoughts of him away though. Some days are easier than others. When my parents divorced, it took me a good two decades, before I felt like I had actually healed. I suspect the same for my marriage. I'm just slow to grieve. It's easier when I'm on an even keel in my own life. Any transition or holiday brings the feelings back to the surface.

I'm relieved the girls don't have to deal with him.

My birthday is Monday. Louisa's is Wednesday. Matt's 50th is Sept. 8. I guess that's why some stuff is stirred up.

I'm experiencing now, in a very cool way, how these really terrible experiences have created a different me. I'm really proud of who I am today. Can't say it's been easy, but I prayed throughout my marriage for the life I'm leading now. That's pretty freakin weird. I prayed to be someone who was financially independent from Matt and good with money. The habits came to me in a really rough way, but it still happened. I'm beginning to see a fabulous life. I'm really proud of that.

[LoisB]

Gwen,

I want to thank you for always posting and saying "Hi" on my thread. You are a sweet lady and I smile when I see you left a message. It was really kind of you to say, "Happy Mother's Day."

[job]

Heather,

I'm going to wish you and Louisa a Happy Birthday early. I do hope that you ladies have something special planned out for next week.

The grieving process is unique for each and every person. Some go through it quickly and others have a slower/longer period. Don't rush the process. You need to work through all of the emotions in order to heal properly.

The challenges we deal w/each and every day help to mold us into the people we are today. Sometimes those challenges help to open our eyes to what is around us, we become more compassionate and understanding of others, we learn patience, become better listeners and when it is all said and done, we become the mentors for the generations that are coming along and we can then provide sage advice and wisdom to those who are willing to listen.

You've had a lot of difficult challenges in the last couple of years. Some have set you back just a wee bit, but you are coming along nicely. You've grown, become more independent and are not afraid to face the world and voice your thoughts and opinions to others. You've come a long way and should be very proud of yourself and what you've accomplished. Never second guess yourself. Do not allow your family to make you feel little, for they are uncomfortable w/the amazing changes/progress you have made.

Keep up the good work!

[LoisB]

Job,

That was the loveliest Birthday gift! Thank you for the kind words.

I just got a promotion today. I'm earning about $400 shy, annually, off what I earned in NY. What a difference a year makes. Life is good.

[job]

Congratulations on the promotion! The cost of living should be less than in NY...correct? You're paycheck will soon be back up to what it was in NY.

Don't second guess yourself....you are stronger than you think. Keep moving forward!

[HaWho]

Woo hoo Lois! Nice job on that promotion!!

And happy birthday. Be sure to take time to savor all your amazing, hard work!!!

[123Gwen]

Hope both you ladies enjoy a little birthday fun! So much to celebrate and enjoy in your beautiful corner of the world. Hats off to you and Louisa for blooming where you have been planted. Surviving and thriving and growing into exquisite steel magnolias.

[BrightFuture]

Happy Birthday, Heather! And congratulations on your promotion!

[LoisB]

Thanks for the birthday wishes!!!!!

Having an awesome day so far. Going out to dinner with my aunt later for some traditional southern cooking :-)

Still hafta stay focused to get some work done. Blah.

Looking like I can purchase a car in the next few weeks. Looking at the responsible choices... Accord, Civic, Ford Focus, etc... Also, considering a cute little used blue Beetle. It would be super fun. Not sure yet which it will be.

Matt sent me a Happy B'day text. Strange and sad. I took some Job advice and asked how he was. He said Okay, asked about the kids and the pets. Always with the pets!

I told him: "It's hard to fill you in, because so much has happened. You've missed a lot. I don't mean that as a slam, but it's the truth. Cal is doing great at her job. I'm super proud of her. Louisa is plain awesome. It hasn't been easy, but I'm proud of all of us. Things are settling down and I'm grateful.

I received... "All three of you girls are awesome. I'm sorry I've missed out. Take care and have a good birthday."

I took the cue that the convo was over. So freakin sad. He has missed 4.5 years of his daughters' lives.

I'm not going to dwell on it. I had this moment of... "Whatta incredibly sad person" and I was able to send back some kindness for whatever hell inside of him created this nightmare for us all. Still feel that tug when he reaches out... always on a holiday... that tug of love for the core of the person inside.

I've grown so much. I can't believe I'm considering buying a car all by my lonesome. No man, no parents, not a single person rescuing me. Just lil' ol me. It made me even sadder for the man who walked away... because I'm so freakin awesome and so are my kids.

[bttrfly]

Happy birthday and congratulations! You have worked so very hard and I can see so much growth in just the short time I've been on here. Wishing you a day filled with serenity xoxoxo

[LoisB]

Thanks Butterfly. It was a really nice birthday.

This has been the most painful and most rewarding experience of my life. I like who I am today. I can't say that about the woman I was... I tolerated a lot of abuse and neglect and hid from the world.

His issues forced me to face my issues, and I'm better for it. He is still lost, I feel found.

[LoisB]

Feeling a little weirded out. I've had a lot of interaction with Matt this week and it just feels strange after so much no contact. He initiated three text conversations. He also ended the conversations and I took his cue and didn't respond.

A strange feeling. I don't see any real movement, except the fact he reached out to me three times. But, it's his "thing" to reach out on holidays. I don't know. I was honest, but not offensive.

At one point, he thanked me for posting FB pics of Louisa on her birthday. He caught me at a moment when I was feeling upset about Louisa's lack of birthday wishes from her grandparents. Nothing from my mother, except on my FB account. An empty card from my dad and nada from Matt's parents. I was talking to a friend about my frustration, when he texted me.

Matt hasn't seen her in several years. I commented that I was feeling angry that she has three affluent sets of grandparents and she only received one card from one set, and no gifts. I think that's crappy. She's 14 and hasn't done anything to deserve being treated like that.

Matt was actually pretty supportive. When he asked which parents, I was honest and said that his parents haven't acknowledged Louisa in several years and it was my dad, on his return from wine tasting in the Napa Valley, who only sent an empty card.

I vented to him. I guess that's part of what feels weird. I vented to him and I haven't in so long. I did say that maybe it's not so bad. Louisa doesn't get the gifts Cal got growing up, but she also doesn't have to deal insanity--and I included Matt in that. He said he understood and wrapped up the convo--which was good. I was feeling emotional and tired and coulda said something much worse.

I took the cue. Got myself something to eat. Calmed down. Feeling a bit better, but still sorta weird for getting honest with this alien person and saying maybe a bit too much than I needed to. Exposed myself.

[job]

Heather,
Maybe Matt is realizing what he's lost. Maybe he's trying to understand you better and what you are dealing with. As for all of the grandparents...you know what they've been like, so you need to keep your expectation to zero and if they do something, well, then....wow!

I'm so sorry that your daughter wasn't recognized properly on her birthday...but the most important that did was you, her mother. That's what is important to her the most.

I'm going to caution you to be careful when venting to Matt. Sometimes we tend to over talk too much about things and that's when they find out things about us...unless, of course, you want him to know what's going on in your life.

Again, you can't change or control what the grandparents do. The only person you can change and/or control is you and how you deal w/them.

Enjoy the holiday weekend.

[LoisB]

Thanks Job. I realized I was hungry and stressed and shut my mouth. Stopped talking, got something to eat and let it go.

Honestly, we had crazy busy, nice birthdays and the reality... Those folks are wackadoo. By stepping away, they save us all a ton of grief. We can go on our merry way--maybe Louisa didn't get $1,000 worth of gifts, but she got to go to the Biltmore, eat sushi for dinner, hang with a good friend, watch the new Jungle Book and eat ice cream cake without the pressure to be nice to some really mean, selfish people.

[Mighty]

Hi Heather!!! Happy Day's, Girl! I'm just stopping in real quick, I'm pretty unknown amongst these parts these days... but I'm still so glad to see you here. I've texted you, but it appears you have had some MAJOR changes, and thus.. a new phone? My msgs have bounced back...

Anyway.. it appears as though you are doing quite well, and are still dealing with the same behavior from Matt. That's totally cool... you know how to deal with that. I get the diff in how Lousia has experienced life vs Cal. Things have been drastically different for d15 too... ahhhh.... but the things they will learn at an early age. Self dependence? Self reliance? Self respect? I donno, Heather... Its a journey, girl... and you have walked it! I feel ya, and I know you have been through it. It is so good to be able to still have communication with you!

I mean, things are drastically different for me in my life, but you, girl, you have really taken drastically different physical measures to mix it up! I really respect that about you and hope you are doing so well...

XXOO-
Mighty

[kml]

Mighty!!!!!! Give us an update, girl!!!

[LoisB]

Mighty!!!! I don't know how to get you my new info? I'm in Asheville now :-) No more Tug Hill winters. Weaverville.

I hope life is good.

[123Gwen]

Heather -

My 2 girls are in a similar sitch with grandparents. For a long time the sadness consumed me but I have come to realize that the best gift I can give my girls is to be their mom 24/7 and not give the haters or the indifferent ANY energy. No negative, no positive - not worth it. NOTHING - NADA - ZILCH.

Very unfamiliar territory for me but my absolute refusal to engage my emotions or my time has been empowering without treading towards bitterness. As for the very personal grieving process I am still grappling with it and going to counseling. My heart is so sad even though my brain is much more evolved. I struggle with the tragedy of it but I find myself really wanting to move beyond that definition of my family.

Let us know what you decide on the car. I went practical and no regrets.

[LoisB]

I love that Gwen. I love giving NO energy to the haters. AWESOME.

Today is Matt's 50th birthday. It's the end of the annual Birthday parade... mine, Louisa's and his...

For the most part, it's a non-issue. Little bit of sadness around such a big birthday being celebrated with strangers, not his family. Pushing the ideas of how he is celebrating from my mind.

I struggled with sending a simple text. I hate how things like that are such a big decision with MLC/Addiction. I remember fondly the days when something so small wasn't a big deal.

He sent me a Happy Birthday, so, in the spirit of mirroring... I sent a simple Happy 50th. He responded Thank You. I guess for that small grain of hope that he will wake up/hit a bottom... that's what pushed me in the direction of acknowledging the b'day...

So strange, yesterday, I was feeling I would ignore it. I mean, seriously, this man treated us all with such rejection, nastiness, etc... who could blame me for ignoring? Then, God worked some of HIS Godliness... in a phone call to a friend who lives in Pennsylvania and never knew me when I lived in Ohio--she mentioned she spent time at this super small, rural development near where I lived in Ohio. A place where Matt worked for years and years. It was a part of our daily life for, at least, ten years. An incredibly small blurb that may not even be marked on a calendar. I took it as a sign to at least acknowledge this big deal birthday of a man I've known since I was 12 years old, when he told his mom he was gonna marry me someday.

On a lighter note, going to pick up my new Prius this afternoon :-)

[LoisB]

Meant say "Marked on a map."

[123Gwen]

I drive a toyota and LOVE it!!! It is so nice to have a vehicle that doesn't suck up $ at the gas station and to be able to drive it long after the loan is satisfied is a good business decision.

While financially I have been lucky because I could stay in my house the reality is that I will probably never be able to rich in cash. It is just statistically hard to accomplish after decades as a SAHM when the joint 401K was drained. That reality has forced me to reframe how I think about money and keeping expenses low keeps your options open. My bank balance might not be large but I try to keep the bills lower and that has given me more freedom than many friends with higher payer incomes.

What color? Very, very exciting stuff - Congrats!

[HaWho]

Woo hoo! How exciting! What is the first road trip you will take?

So happy for you!

[BrightFuture]

Heather, I’ve been reading along… just not much time to post… I can see the sadness in losing something you thought was the best thing happen to you… I also see the realization that the man you married was not exactly the one you thought he was… And… still you have a hope for him… and also for you and your D’s… that one day he will wake up and do the right things…

I think it is great that you acknowledged his B-day! You are bigger than the hurt that he brought up on you and your D’s. It’s been a difficult journey for you, but I think you are doing great.

Congrats on the Prius! It is a great car! You are awesome, Heather, making it this far in your life! I wish I would be somewhere around to give you my support and spend some fun time with you!

[tadpole1025]

Hi Heather!

You sound well.

Keep going!

Tad

(PS - you'll love the amount of gas that you DON'T put in the Prius.)

[LoisB]

It has been soooooo long!!! Crazy long.

Thought I'd stop by, say "HI!"

And, for all those starting out... I'm five years out, since Ex-H of 25 years left and I'm AWESOME. If I was any more awesome... I wouldn't be able to stand myself.

Yes, I'm divorced, but I'm okay. And, my kids are okay and my dog is okay and I'm living in a place where, 20 years ago, I dreamt of living... but, my husband wasn't willing to move away from his wackadoo parents.

Still love him. Not sure I will ever be able to allow him back in my life. Still have moments of anger, moments of grief, sadness and whatever... but, they pass so much more quickly now. My advice is... feel whatever you need to feel. Trust your own process, your journey, allow your feelings to take you where you need to go... and make your life better than it was. Create a support system of folks, who will support whatever feeling happens to surface in that moment. Feel it. Move through it. THEN... Do the stuff you only dreamt of doing during your intact marriage. And, show your kids peace. Provide them with a SAFE, drama-free place to land. A safety net from the insanity.

When I find myself longing for my married life, old life, old house... feeling sad about stuff...I've created a coping mechanism that may work for others. I READ about antisocial personality disorders, narcissism, personality disorders, codependency and domestic violence. I have a small reading list of articles, books and the like to remind me of the reality of living with an abusive, severely depressed person.

Any individual in a midlife crisis exhibits similar behavior. It's abuse, in my opinion. And, there are some definite benefits to cutting the cord, either legally or figuratively. Mainly, my children know what a calm, peaceful, loving home is... It's a safe place.

In my case, my ex-H showed some red flags for all of these behaviors throughout the years. He had moments of genuine empathy, kindness and regret, but struggled with substance abuse for much of 30+ year relationship. In my opinion, mid-life, some serious un-resolved childhood abuse and emotional neglect, along with life's regular ups-and-downs led to my H's crisis.

What I've learned: Live YOUR dream. This, in my opinion, takes the sting out of the rejection and pain. If they come back, they come back. They will do whatever, regardless of what you do, or don't do. I made every DB mistake in the book, and my ex-H is still expressing regret and and missing us.

Not only did I move to a place where I always wanted to live, but I've transformed my life into the vision I had hoped for years and years. I work from home. Currently, I'm working from home part time and recuperating from an incredibly intense five years.

H is still floundering and very, very sad.

From time to time, I reach out to him. I try to maintain a connection. Sometimes, I get a polite, but short response... others he offers up more apologies and regrets... Still living with OW as far as I know.

Last week, he, again, told me how sorry he is... how he effed up his whole life... yadda, yadda, yadda... A really nice memory came up from when we were teenagers. He told me he'd would do it all over again today.

Then, crickets.

He will make these sorta random, out-of-the-blue statements of regret, make it obvious he is really miserable, but will leave it there. Sorta fade back into the woodwork as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure he has the mental capacity, or energy to handle how badly he treated me, or the clarity to map/take action to climb out of the quagmire he put himself in.

He is, however, working harder at reconnecting with our oldest. He talks to her weekly. Our youngest still wants nothing to do with him.

I just take his cue, and fade back away, leave him to it... The anger has mainly faded. Now, I just feel badly for him... and sad for how time continues to pass, while my life moves forward and he isn't a part of it.

I've really removed most of the toxic people from my life. Talk to my mom occasionally, rarely to my dad, never to my in-laws. The girls and I have created a nice, happy bubble in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Focused on healing.

Getting to know new folks in our new state. Loving myself, my kids, my new life.

[Westo]

Hey Lois.....I've loved reading this. I really needed it right now.

Thank you!

[job]

I was thinking about you the other day and wondered how you and the girls were doing.

I'm glad you came back to post an update. You sound great! Your journey was a difficult one, but when you finally made up your mind to take back your life...you did it! Congratulations!

Keep up the good work and please come back to visit more often. The door is always open!

[LoisB]

Job,

I've been thinking of you too!!

You were such a pivotal person during some very lonely, frightening times. Thank you.

Life has a funny way of working out the way it's supposed to. I never would have believed that five years ago.

NEVER. I felt like God had it out for me.

He didn't. He had a plan.

I remember coming across this site around 2 a.m. when I couldn't sleep for all the sobbing. It was about 9 months after he left. A few months after I learned of the OW.

I used all my reporter/editor skills to research, research, dig, dig, dig and dig for any signs that someone's marriage had survived.

I would have given anything... ANYTHING for my husband to come back.

What I couldn't see was that God was protecting us from a very unbalanced person. God gave us the space needed for me to grow up and for the kids to experience a calm they never would have experienced had their dad stayed put.

There is protection in rejection.

The rejection, the OW, the crisis... none of it had anything to do with me, or the connection I had with my husband.

It's really strange how the timeline seems dead on too. Kinda freaks me out a lil. It's been 5 years last February since he left. I feel a shift, where he's concerned. He seems a little more like his old self... very timid, very skittish, but a little more like the guy I once knew.

In the last year, he has slowly increased his communication with our oldest. He is making a slow, but steady effort with our youngest with gifts and cards. She received a package in the mail today.

Anyway, feeling grateful today for this painful process and where it's brought us all. I feel I've learned a great deal about unconditional love and patience.

Not sure what the future holds, but I'm feeling pretty content today.

[bttrfly]

was thinking of you the other day, Heather, wondering how you were doing and sending a prayer that you were in a peaceful state of being. So very happy to read your update. xoxoxo

[LoisB]

Hey Everyone!

I almost didn't post this -- I'm 5+ years into this and I can testify, It's hard to come back and post even when something shifts in the situation. It's kinda cringeworthy because there's so much pain documented on this site for me. All my crazy out there for the world to read.

However, something has shifted in my situation, I remember being desperate for any information about the other side when I was in midst of all that pain. So, here goes:

My ex-H has been in consistent contact with our oldest daughter for more than a year now. At first, she said it was like communicating with a teenager -- but she has continued contact and expressed some things to him, which seem important to her in order to move forward.

Youngest daughter hasn't seen him in four years and is now almost 15--she doesn't really know him. He reaches out from time-to-time, but she doesn't want anything to do with him.

My life is in a good place. I'm happy. I'm really seeing how -- had I stayed married and all of this bad hadn't happened, I wouldn't have the really awesome life I have now.

Maybe out of guilt, out of knowing this man since childhood, having children with him?? Still loving him -- but not wanting to be with him as he is -- ???? I don't know. From time-to-time I reach out just to touch base and let him know something going one with youngest daughter, or to even ask how it's going.

I do this -- maybe once every six months or so -- Well, anyway, I've noticed he always responds now, and he usually responds quickly and at least acts if he is happy I reached out.

I had been dark for many, many months and reached out to him this spring with some info about our daughter. He was really responsive and grateful to me for sharing. He also apologized again deeply for all the pain he had caused. He told me he deeply regretted how he had effed everything up and wished he could go back in time. Then, crickets. Seems like he only communicates with me if I reach out.

So, yesterday, I touched base. I had had some dreams about him and just has this sense I should reach out. Remember, we have been a part of each other's lives since childhood and he still feels like family to me.

So I did and what he communicated was pretty illuminating and validating as far as OW is concerned.

He first thanked me for being the person I am, and being such a good mom to our daughters.

Told me he was working on himself, not an easy road. In a bad place and working to get out of it.

He told me he looked forward to talking to me soon.

Then, the best part... He told me what happened was not my fault. And, what he has with OW isn't "at all like what we had and not the better either. Just for clarification. He told me I didn't hallucinate 30 years of my life." What we had was real... sounds like what he has now is pretty empty and superficial and he's not happy.

I would have given anything to know this when I found out about OW... all the imaginings, the self-doubt and grief over having a long, long relationship with someone and maybe not knowing the real person.

This isn't to say he will take any action. He often doesn't, and sits in the muck, which, truthfully, is fine for me because having a really messed up person like him in our lives right now is not something I'm open to. We live a really quiet, happy life about 9 hours from him and I'd like to keep it that way.

But, knowing what we had as a couple was real. Knowing his choices didn't take him to happily ever after, knowing he regrets his choices... I can't say I'm happy he is miserable, but I'm content to know the world isn't as upside down as it felt when he left.

For a long time, he was my rock, my home, my foundation... and, when his behavior turned our lives upside down and made me question my own sanity.

For those struggling with the adultery and hearing about soulmates and blah, blah, blah... It's not what you think. It's empty and offers only the illusion of a carefree life--Know that. No matter how much they may try to convince you otherwise.

[Gordie]

Thank you so much for sharing that perspective. You have no idea how much it means to me.

[SBJ]

Thank you for your comments. It is nice to see that we aren't all crazy...right? I hope and pray that all is well with you and your girls.

[Treasur]

Ah, you made me gulp and cry a bit (in a good way). I'm pleased that no matter how late you finally heard what you needed to hear x

[job]

Welcome back!

Yep, they appear to be happy as larks, but truly, deep down, they are miserable. It's taken a long time for him to finally get to where he is today and have a civil conversation w/you.

Sounds like your daughters are doing well? How is the oldest one doing? Did she return to school?

I can't believe your youngest is almost 15! Time truly has flown by very quickly and that's why we say to live your life to the fullest.

Now...what about you? How are you doing?

[peacetoday]

Glad to hear your update

I suspect many of them if not all MLCer s would report the same over time if they were truly honest

Im glad you could hear the truth from him

Have a good weekend

[HTM]

For those struggling with the adultery and hearing about soulmates and blah, blah, blah... It's not what you think. It's empty and offers only the illusion of a carefree life--Know that. No matter how much they may try to convince you otherwise.

To read of your sitch and especially the timeline is a little daunting for someone who's only 18 months post-BD, though I take comfort in what you say about the OP. From afar the OM in my sitch seems to have it all but on closer inspection: Never married; No children; No contest... my Ss will always be my greatest adventure/achievement.

I'm glad to hear of where you are currently and that with recent ex-H's communication you can finally lay any remaining self-doubt to rest.

[LoisB]

Thanks everyone :-)

Hi Job,

I'm doing fairly awesome... something I never thought I'd say post-divorce.

Gaining some clarity on how God protected me with Matt's leaving. I now have the life I dreamed about so, so many married years. I live in a place I've loved since I was a kid. I work from home. I'm good at what I do. Have a season pass to the Biltmore and live 10 minutes from the Blue Ridge Parkway if I ever need a little reminder of what God's about. Something about these really old mountains has been healing for all of us. We give them personalities and feel like they are watching over.

Oldest D is 23 now and finding her way. She has the most baggage from her dad. She seems to be getting to some closure in her own way. She has dated two addicts now... but, has broken it off with both after being mistreated. Hasn't gone back to school, but lives in her own place and has a job she rocks at the YMCA--was named employee of the quarter. Is something of a Yoga expert, and worked as a whitewater river guide. She is figuring things out in her own time, and I've gotten out of her way. She lives about 10 minutes away, so I'm here if she needs me.

Youngest is AMAZING. She doesn't have as much baggage because she was nine when it all went down. With my youngest, I can see how living away from her dad has been a good thing. He always struggled with her As diagnosis, and never offered the support or patience she needed. He reacted with a short temper and emotional abuse. Today, she is full of self-confidence and definitely her own person.

Weird thing... I'm maybe most proud that I kept all our pets with us. Life exploded and I could've easily given them up due to circumstances. But, all our Ohio brood is still together and our little band of misfits are now Mountain Misfits.

Job, hope you are well. Much LOVE to YOU!

[bttrfly]

This. You. Heather, you're nothing short of a power of example. I'm in awe and I'm hopeful that someday I will feel the sense of peace you clearly have earned.

Much love.

Don't be a stranger xoxoxoxo

[LoisB]

Thanks B ;-)

You will get here. And, we will have a party!

Four things-

So many moments brought me to this point, but here are three that seem to stick with me--

1. I really drew strength from women like Job, Bea, Shining and so many more, who took their lives from pain and chaos to calm and steady. My goal was a peaceful life. Conflict-free is the goal--only a man offering energy recharge, as opposed to depletion is worth it.

2. I read this book about the journey from abandonment. It was a game changer. She writes that the key to surviving abandonment is to create a life that's better than the one you had before you were left in the dark. It kinda puts things into perspective during the grieving process. Yep, I was profoundly rejected, BUT... I've created a life I love and would I switch this life with the old one? NOT A CHANCE. The girls actually made a list about what a dream life would look like. My youngest and I made a series of vision boards--we'd achieve a bunch-and make a new one. We chose, together, where we wanted to live.

3. My H was one of those that went AWOL. While we struggled to eat and pay bills and make repairs on our home, he was living like a college student. He went months without seeing our girls. At one point, after he hadn't seen them in like 6 months, we ran into someone we knew, who told me how they had just seen Matt at a pig roast the weekend before--only a few miles from our home. My girls heard this and their faces went white. My old life was dead. And, hearing about their dad being so close--it was heartbreaking--one of a million heartbreaks. It was a turning point. I needed to look ahead and leave this dead dream I was still stuck in. If he really wanted to be with us, to make changes, to become the man our girls deserved--he would need to come to them. He would have to make the effort--only then would they see they are worth it.

4. Treat it like a death. Grieve him like you would if you were a widow. I actually changed my FB status to Widow, then opened a new page and left the old one as a sort relic. For my kids, their dad died. We all had to grieve the loss. Oldest D has created a new relationship, where she is very clear that he hasn't earned the right to give parental advice... yet. She went hiking a few weeks ago, and told her dad because you know the drill--you have to let three people know where you are headed--he told her, "Tell your mom." Big D responded, "Um Dad, no, don't think you are first on the list. Mom already knows. She comes first--you haven't earned that yet."

I fought hard for my marriage--harder than he deserved. And, I still think marriage is a sacrament and families should remain intact. However, I couldn't force someone to make changes, to be something other than he was. His choice. If someone chooses to leave, disengage, let them. There's only one Heather and he isn't married to her anymore. Poor sap.

[LoisB]

P.S. I still love him and will always hold that bit of hope he will get the help he needs and can be a part of our family again in some way. He is family. And, I've given myself permission to accept this--it's okay to still love him. As long as I don't allow him to disrupt my life. And, he won't stop me from any future relationships with someone deserving.

[leahsue]

Wow, Lois, you are an inspiration. I love your confident strength. I needed to see this today. I'm going to attempt to go back and read your threads, although this has been a challenge to me as to how to find old threads when posters change the titles and if there's not a link in each one to the previous one.
I know we can't name books on here, but can you hint somehow at the book you refer to about abandonment? I'd love to read it.
Thanks for posting your update. I hope I can find your old threads.

[LoisB]

If you Google, it's a journey.

[ottocat]

LoisB I read the threads all the time and have followed great folks like Job for years. In fact--she was one of the first to explain this mess called MLC to me! And I continue to read her replies and those of some of other wise ones! Anyhow wanted you to know that I think you and I are neighbors if you are close to Biltmore--etc. I live about 15 minutes from the entrance of the Estate---and was a passholder for a long time but now that I work from home and am so busy just have not kept the passes up. But enjoyed reading your posts. Maybe one day we can connect! Best wishes---Ottocat

[LoisB]

Otto! Where the heck are you? I'm 15 minutes away too, to the north. Have no idea how to convey exact locations or contact info on here???

[bttrfly]

agree to meet somewhere and have one of you carry or wear something distinctive?

[job]

Heather,

There is a way to go about meeting up: set up a time and place and be there. Maybe one of you carries a book or flower so that the other one can locate you.

[HaWho]

So great to hear an update from you and such a positive one at that! And of course, it is so admirable to hear about all the results of your hard work. You are reaping what you alone have sown. Kudos to you on carving out a new life for you and your girls.

I know it isn't always easy to come back here so thank you for taking the time to post.

[kml]

Heather -
So glad you posted, you sound great!

How're you doing on the financial front? Weren't you doing Debtors Anonymous or something similar to get control of your finances?

(For those reading who don't know Heathers whole story and struggle yourselves with finances, she was stuck without adequate support and had to go way outside her comfort zone to make a living and support her daughters, it's painful growth but she is proof it can be done!!!

[ottocat]

LoisB-- my house is in the valley behind Reynolds High School--I am in the Southeastern part of the county..and my zip is a Biltmore zip. So no---I am not north but southeast of the estate. I wish we could email each other---but I realize the issues that could come from disclosing info....just could not believe that you are close by! Ottocat

[job]

Be careful w/giving too much info on here. Find a specific location and meet there, i.e., a church or a local coffee shop, but don't be too specific about where you live.

[ottocat]

Thanks Job ---I understand---things have changed a lot since the early days of this site. Thanks for all you do! Ottocat

[LoisB]

Hi Ellie!

Yes, I'm still in D.A. I'm a sponsor now and honestly can't believe how much my life has changed.

I read a few of my really early posts. I was terrified. I had been told by EVERYONE around me that I was incompetent.

Anyway, YES! It can be done. And, for anyone scared out of there skull about being the sole breadwinner and creating a good life you and your kids. It can definitely be done. There's a ton of support out there, just yours for the asking :-)

[beatrice]

Hi, so good to come here (as I do occasionally!!) and see a post from you. It feels as if you have received some closure from your xh.

The way you have pulled your life together and dealt with all the stuff that life has thrown at you has been inspirational. You are courageous and loyal, and have travelled such a long way from so much baggage that tried to pull you back, with your birth family and xh. I admire you greatly.

I have just had my first grandchild, which is an amazing experience, although tinged with a little sadness to be doing it alone.

As with all life changing events it sent xh into a tailspin (and he was doing quite nicely in relative terms for a long term MLCer!) He is now back into the world of no contact, and anger with me. The good news is that it washes over me these days. I even find it funny. In a fit of rage a few weeks back he told me that the real reason he left me (this is coming up to 12 years folks) is that I was bossy. And here was me thinking I had a character flaw. I mean is that the best he can do for abandoning his wife and three children after a long marriage?

We make our own lives. Your words are wise and you have walked the walk.

[mleigh4]

I have always admired you, thank you so much for coming back to post an update. You have me smiling at your strength and courage, and for making your life what you wanted it to be. You may not know how much you helped in giving me strength back in my early days of posting here, so thank you for that.

I really enjoyed reading your update and so happy you finally got to hear those words of regret from your Xh.

M

[LoisB]

Bea and MLeigh!

Hey Ladies :-)

Sorry Bea that he's gone back to being a D-bag. Happy to hear about the Grandbaby though!!! You gave me such inspiration to keep trucking. You were one of the lights at the end of the tunnel--showing me life could be calm and happy. So grateful for the example of calm, financially successful and settled. Thank you.

M--

Back Atcha :-) Remember that time you weren't living in your own house because YOUR D-bag didn't feel much like being married anymore. Then, you moved back. Very ballsy. You are the poster child for grace under pressure.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Mighty]

Hi Heather! You sound so great. It warms my heart. I'm so happy for you and your girls. You are truly amazing and have trekked where many haven't. That is inspiring and awesome.

Hope your girls are great. Thanks for always being a sounding board and voice of reason and perception for me. Love ya, girl.

And you heard from bea!! Awwwwww....

[LoisB]

Strange happenings...

My mom was in an accident and fractured her skull in three places. She was med-vac-ed to a hospital and has been the ICU Neurology Dept. for the past seven days.

I went home for a week. It was draining and horrible, and all the awful that a family emerg. like this brings.

Mom is recovering, but it's going to be a long journey. She is off the vent and recognizes us all, but has a long way to go.

I'm drained. Happy to be home, back in my safe routine. Trying to pace myself, as I catch up to work and all I have to do right now.

Mom never divorced her abusive husband, the one who abused us all as teens and children... They've lived apart for five years, but never finished the divorce... A warning to all. This means that this sociopathic, abusive man is her decision maker. Have already checked with attorneys to see if we can make adjustments if he pushes against what my sister and brother and I want.

This is the reality check my mom never took to heart. He has the power to bring her home to his home. I'm glad I divorced my sociopathic H.

On that note: Sociopathic H showed up with a cup of coffee last week at my mom's apartment. Very nervous, very small looking and very kind. Said OW is psycho. Said he watched my grandmother's funeral from across the street back in February and visited her grave after the funeral when everyone left. Told me I was right about OW. Said he was Psycho too, and revealed a tremendous amount of research he has performed about the area where we live. Has looked into whether his professional credentials would transfer, and said he misses us all...

Told me, "Seeing you and talking to you felt right. I'm putting myself out on a limb. It felt right, and it hasn't felt that way in a long time. I miss that."

He has broken ties with his very toxic mom. He told me she is toxic. That's something I would have paid 2 bill for back 10-20 years ago. He also alluded to the fact she pushed him hard to make some of the divorce decisions he made. Not that he blamed her, or didn't take responsibility... just made it clear she was in his ear. A very controlling, weird woman, sorta in love my exH.

Communicating with me daily. Called me first thing this morning. Wasn't happy to see the dating app on my phone.

I'm not even going to a place where I'm analyzing any of this. My mom and my life is my first priority. He seems to be waking up though. Seems to be heading in this direction for the past year or so.

The great news?? I'm so okay it's kinda frightening. I was okay seeing him. The PTSD wasn't bad at all. I felt in control of myself, my emotions, my kids, my life.

I'm good whether this guy wakes up, or not... And, looking at him, not sure he is my type now. Skinny, old-looking, weathered, not okay in his skin...

I prefer them outdoorsy, late 30s, strong, tall and able to scoop me up and kiss me with some passion.

NO matter what, though, I'm happy he says he's trying to get clean, quit smoking and is no longer involved with roommate, but I believe they are still living together... I didn't ask for details. Don't really want to know right now. He has a long way to go before I would accept him back into my glorious life.

Glad for my girls.

Morals to take from this story:

1. Protect yourself from the psycho MLC-er legally/financially. Don't let this go on so long and leave yourself unprotected. We are paying the price for my mom's issues.

2. Don't try to imagine what's running through their head. It was obvious to me that this man was absolutely WACKADOO while in replay. He wasn't thinking. He was living on pure emotion and drug/alcohol abuse. He said he was psycho. He was. HE still is. Not sure where he'll land, but he seems to be coming back to earth a bit...headed in this direction at least.

[LoisB]

P.S. This MLC stuff is 100-percent the truth. Traumatized children will play out that trauma and abandonment and abuse and, in our case, sexual abuse/emotional parental entanglement, into adulthood. It's been 5.5 years. Whether he comes back or not, he seems to be working this childhood trauma out in a way that works for him. With TONS of shame and guilt laid on top.

[job]

I am so sorry to read about your mother. I hope she makes a full recovery and can get back to her "normal" life. She's going to have lots of time to think about things and I do hope that at some point, she will finally divorce the jerk or do a proper will that states exactly what she wants done w/regards to estate and funeral. No telling what the jerk would do.

Now, about your xh...I sincerely hope he doesn't move to your area. You and your girls needs the distance from him. It sounds like things haven't been going his way and he sees that you and the girls are truly happy and have moved on. He knows that you've grown by leaps and bounds and your self confidence is attracting him like the candle does a moth. Sure, he can talk all he wants about what he's doing to make things right within himself...but until he does the "walk" for a very long period of time, I would take what he says w/a grain of salt. As the old saying goes, "the proof is in the pudding". Just remember...over the years and not just the MLC years, he put you and the girls through a lot...he would have to do a whole heck of a lot of growing up and hard/necessary work to earn your trust and respect back.

You've come a long way and it sounds like you've taken in all that we've talked about over the years and now understand that MLC does exist and how the childhood emotions are stunted and then played out at a later time.

For now, continue as you have been. I'm so very proud of you. You are like the phoenix...you rose from the ashes and are soaring these days.

[LoisB]

Thanks Job...

Here's where I could use some guidance. My gut says he is coming to a bit, but is very fragile.

Still, I like the life I've created. Asheville is a magical, healing place for us and I want it stay that way.

He alluded to wanting to surprise me with something for my birthday next week.

How do I broach this subject carefully, with compassion? Both girls are opening their hearts to him a little.

Bottom Line:

1. I don't want to be the replacement woman for OW... just as OW was a replacement for me.
2. I don't want to bludgeon his progress, especially for the girls' sake.
3. I don't want him here until he has shown many months of sobriety and is in therapy, preferably with a 12-step program too. Asheville needs to remain safe.

I'm not doing his 3-step waltz, where he comes back, does half the work, then rattles our world again.

[LoisB]

No surprise moves to Asheville. We've worked hard to get to where we are, and I don't want someone who is trying to ride our coat-tails now that things are finally going our way. That will not be disturbed, altered or rocked in any way, shape or form.

We need to see him doing the work on himself, before taking any steps in this direction. A lot of damage was done. We all have PTSD coming out the ears. I'm not putting our girls through any more just because he is finally getting honest about what he gave up.

Thanks. That helped. I've shelved all this, while my mom was critical. Today, they pulled out the feeding tube. I think I'm gaining some clarity, and realizing we may be in store for at least a visit... I need to set some firm boundaries.

[job]

I would wait and see what the surprise is. If it's a visit, he stays in a hotel and not in your safe haven space. You are under no obligation to share your life w/him...only share what is necessary where the girls are concerned. They can tell him about what they are doing now since they are older and wiser.

Set your boundaries and stick to them. You know the drill...they come close when they are at loose ends when they split from the OW and if the OW contacts them...off they go again. I do not want to see you hurt/disappointed and keep those expectations at zero and look to him as a long lost cousin.

[LoisB]

Okay. I'm going to focus on how unlikely it is he will actually do the work. I hurt for our youngest though, who is opening her heart a bit.

[job]

Your youngest is a very smart cookie. She will open her heart just a wee bit, but she's very wise when it comes to your xh.

I worry about you the most.

[bttrfly]

Heather I'm so sorry about your mom. Will keep her and your family in my prayers.

Also - happy birthday! Mine is next week also! We Virgo girls rule xoxo

Re: exh and the latest part of his journey. I echo Job on the wait and see, but I also feel like if the opportunity presents itself, why can't you say exactly what you told us about what you'd need to see from him?

Or is that not the right step to take??

Deferring to those with more experience on that one.

Much love,
-B.

[kml]

Wow, I'm sorry to hear about your mom. My mom tripped and fell and hit her face in July; not knocked unconscious, but broke her nose and some teeth. The resulting concussion has resulted in some definite cognitive issues - she's improving but I'm afraid this may have tipped her over into incipient Alzheimer's - I'm doing everything possible to help her brain heal but it's slow progress. There's a book coming out later this week called The End of Alzheimer's by Bredesen - the research protocol that they are using in early dementia would also be beneficial for brain injury recovery. (Oddly enough, I saw two brain injury patients this morning - one is a teenage patient of mine who sustained a serious traumatic brain injury with skull fracture and bleed at the beginning of July, and had a long and complicated hospital course. But he looks fantastic now! I'm so relieved.

I prefer them outdoorsy, late 30s, strong, tall and able to scoop me up and kiss me with some passion.

Lolol - I love this! I'm pretty sure you've moved way beyond you ex - he'd have to work hard for YEARS to come close to being a person you would want to date. Fingers crossed that he gains enough emotional sobriety to start functioning a little bit as a father, but keep your expectations very very low. And I agree with the boundaries discussed above - if he comes to town, he stays at a hotel, and out of your peronal space as much as possible. (BTW, the GALL to feel he has the right to be upset seeing your dating app!!! They all really do think we're just supposed to sit frozen in time.)

[OwnIt]

I'm sorry also about your mom, that must be so awful to endure and to have to deal with.

Interesting about your H. It really seems that at some point they do come back whether they are wanted or not. I'm with KML, I love your description of the ideal male and how your H pales in comparison.

I'd say keep a distance and some level of amusement about the whole thing.

[Mighty]

Wow, girl! You've got a lot going on! Sorry bout your mom. And the sitch with her ex is unfortunate added stress...

And dang, your ex, huh? Whelp, be strong girl. And remember, it's not your job to help him or pull him through. He will never be half the man you would even look at if he can't stand on his own two feet and walk the path he needs to.

But that little bit of confirmation of things you've known all along sure is nice, huh?!

Take care, my friend. Hold your head high and proud. And do you! XO

[LoisB]

Thanks everyone!! Much love :-) Just like old times.

Girls and I held an impromptu "Matt Situation Conference." Oldest daughter was stressing, because he is calling her daily first thing in the morning. He asked her for guidance the relationship he has with youngest. Too heavy, too much, especially right now. He also telling her different stuff. He got high to watch the eclipse.

The girls and I set boundaries and sent in email-everyone contributed:

The girls and I have discussed:


1. No surprise visits. Get a therapist.

2. Callaway needs a week-break from talking to you. When you get a therapist, you can talk about the heavy, adult stuff--like how to approach a relationship with Louisa. Cal is 23, and needs to focus on paying bills, working, decorating her apartment. Get a therapist/professional help.

3. Asheville is a bubble of happy and safe for us, this will NOT be disrupted. I helped you transition to Marblehead, and you assured me OW would not follow. That's not an option for Asheville. I don't trust she won't follow you. Louisa: "Dad can move anywhere in the world, but Asheville." Get a therapist.

4. You must not use us to get better. You must stand on your own two feet like we have. As an adult. Not seeing your children for years is NOT normal. Get a therapist. Get help.

5. You are telling Cal one thing, me another. "Honesty builds relationships, stop being a pussy," (per Callaway). "Do some [censored] that will make you like yourself, instead of walking on eggshells trying to please us all."

Louisa: I want a DAD, I don't want emails, texts, or whatever, or gifts. I feel guilty because I know he is hurting. But, I don't want a DAD who is still smoking cigarettes and other stuff. I want a DAD free of the person he lives with. I want a DAD who has gotten help and is trying to honestly figure out why he did the terrible things he did."

Callaway: "I want a DAD, who is honestly looking at himself and what he has done. He needs to admit he can't do this alone."

Callaway: I want him to walk into a therapist's office and say, "I abandoned my family and my pets, and I need help to understand why."

We all love you in our own way. That won't change. But, you are not someone any of us would want to hang out with RIGHT NOW. Enough of the B.S. Get help, or don't. Up to you. You've missed out on years.


He sent a text: Got it. Thanks for the honesty. Hope your mom continues to improve. Take care TTYL smiley face.


***Will start another thread--eventually.

[LoisB]

New Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2757826&#Post2757826