Feeling lost

[srt]

Hi folks, been lurking and reading for a week and finally needing to reach out for advice and support.

Me 35, Her 34, D7, S5, T18, M10
Wife had EA Oct 12, after discovery things improved for a couple of years, then slowly soured. I felt I couldn't trust her and she was being secretive and giving all signs of being in an A.
ILLBINILWY Jan 15, this knocked me for six, no idea what to do or where to turn, didn't help I'd been withdrawing and not getting involved as much as I should have. W family v enmeshed/controlling and she had v little time for me.
BD Aug 16, again shellshocked but with hindsight I should have seen it coming. W moved out with kids Sep 15.
Currently I am getting IC, and we are both in MC, but W says she does not want to R. Getting scared of D and effect on D&S.
I know I need to get less emotionally involved and try and move on.
Looking for advice on how to do this the DB way - would be disappointed to muck things up even though current outlook is bleak.

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[srt]

I suppose I'm looking for a strategy to help me, I'm unsure if I have a WW or WAW.
Mothers day is also approaching, and I have kids that day - expecting to be asked to involve W that day and wondering what is best.

[TimR]

Could you tell us more about your sitch?

[srt]

Previous to EA our M was good, since having kids MIL and FIL have been v intrusive (IMO), and although W acknowledges this she will not say or do anythign about it.
Currently I am in the MH, W in same town, I am not funding anything for her.
Both of us getting on as well as ever, she has noticed positive changes in me, and is saying what a good father I now am, but W has also stated several times in MC she does not want to R.
I've been pouring all my effort into saving this and basically don't know what to do now.
Mentally I cannot continue to keep putting in what I am atm.
I want to detach in a positive way without jeopardising any small chance of an R.

[srt]

I have read the link cadet has provided (thanks) but still need some advice on how to treat my situation.
I have been trying to salvage things by myself up to now and have been doing many of the DB things already, but there has not been much change in W attitude to R.
I most want to know if I have a WW or WAW - she did say when moving out that she had bottled things up for years and was done, needing space and didn't know what she wanted.
There are aspects to what she says that have led friends and family to say she is having a MLC but I do know that I played my part in her getting to this stage.
Because kids are involved we are in contact every few days for handovers, looking for advice on what strategy to pursue based on my situation.
Looking forwards to replies

[Cadet]

Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.

[Cadet]

there has not been much change in W attitude to R.

Things did not get to this point over night and you seem to be expecting a change in a short time.

If it is a MLC this takes a VERY long time.

Lower your expectations and Trust the Process.

[Ojap]

Agree w/ Cadet.

I will say that I too am very 'inpatient'. Kind of like..."I'm busting my tail over here, trying to improve who I am for our R. I'm reading books, I'm going to the gym, I'm posting to online forums looking for wisdom"....so WHY isn't it making a difference in HER?

Well the truth is...you CAN'T make a difference in her. The sooner you can fully internalize that...work on yourself, etc...it will start to put you in a better place. I am only at beginning stages...but it can be very liberating when you realize that no matter if your W is a WW, or a WAW...she is responsible for that. You have to 'own' your issues in the relationship...and work on improving you. She has to 'own' her part...and improve her.

Toughest and most valuable lesson I've learned so far. I can't FIX my W. But...I CAN fix me.

[srt]

I suppose what I'm asking is if anyone can help me determine if it is a WW, WAW or MLC as I have read they are approached slightly differently.

I also want to know how much to detach, I can't go completely dark due to kids, so do I become neighbourly, or will this do more damage if I have pigeonholed her wrongly (i.e think MLC but actually WAW?)

What about "family" days with kids, I want to make certain I'm approaching things properly. Up to now we have both been making an effort on days out for the kids so things are normal for them. Should this continue or due I pull back and refuse to share "my" time with teh kids with her?

The reason I'm uncertain is probably because I previously withdrew due in response to overbearing MIL and FIL, so not sure if this is "more of the same" or a 180 I need to do.

Finally what about in MC, I know I have to listen and acknowledge what she says but I feel the counsellor is trying to moves things on to a place I don't want to go (maybe D?). Do I put the brakes on this? Or do I ensure I get everything off my chest? In essence how to I DB in MC?

Thanks to everyone out there so far, it's a lonely place, and I'm moving on with GAL as best I can.

[mutatio]

Lower your horizons srt. Try to simply make each day pleasant, stay positive and love your children. Work out a longer term strategy here while your doing this. This is a marathon, forget about quick fixes.

Stay positive, love your children and evolve thru posting. Be well srt be strong

[Cadet]

I suppose what I'm asking is if anyone can help me determine if it is a WW, WAW or MLC as I have read they are approached slightly differently.

I really think your approach will be the same no matter what label their is.

Everything you need to DO is in my first post.

And when all else fails - DB says to DO WHAT WORKS.

[srt]

Posting as an update again, still waiting on DR book to be delivered... hopefully it will back up what I've been doing so far.

I have some questions in the meantime about holidays and things for those with kids. How do people handle these the DB way?
We will probably split our time as usual.
Do I agree to go on days out with her if she suggest in her time?
Do I invite out during my time? (suspect no!)

[Cadet]

While you are waiting for the book to come have you read all the homework?

Are you asking if you are to go out on a date with your wife?
Is that what you are expecting?

I am not sure what you are asking?

[collin]

SRT. I too am new here. What Ojap said really sums up my outlook too:

I will say that I too am very 'inpatient'. Kind of like..."I'm busting my tail over here, trying to improve who I am for our R. I'm reading books, I'm going to the gym, I'm posting to online forums looking for wisdom"....so WHY isn't it making a difference in HER?

You should check out Andy Stanleys talk on Starting Over. I believe it's on Netflix. It really emphasizes what Cadet said:

Things did not get to this point over night and you seem to be expecting a change in a short time.

My wife's and my relationship kind of just went off the rails and there was no way to reset the course. Maybe this is what's best for us. I am going to date my wife when she moves out. I am going to take this opportunity to be the best me I can be so I can be the best husband for her. For now, while she's still at home, I am going to be the best roommate I can be.

[srt]

Hi sorry, my wife is not willing to date, even though I've wanted her to do that since the start of the separation.

I meant during the holidays when we have turn about with the kids.

i.e when she has them, if she suggests I go on a day out with them as a family, should I go?

and the opposite, when I have them should I invite wife to come for days out with us?

[Cadet]

Well I will answer this way,
if someone gave me a chance to be with my kids,
wild horses would not stop me from taking that opportunity.

As far as inviting her,
depends on what your objective is.

If you are trying to win her back by expecting something
after you give her extra time with the kids, I would say - NO.

If you can do it just because it is good for the kids.
And have no expectations about your relationship, then - Yes

[srt]

Thanks, that was my thinking
I suppose the rest of my questions will hopefully be answered in the book too.
Finding situation not too bad to deal with now - relation with W are good (better than at any point in last 6 months/year).
Will post back about how to DB approach counselling if I don't get the info I need from DR.
Thanks!

[Accuray]

Hi SRT,

Please recognize that you're in a very difficult position. A lot of the advice will be like people telling you not to eat when you feel very hungry -- it just feels wrong to follow it and takes a LOT of discipline.

If you could DB perfectly here's what it would look like:

You would just "do your own thing", pursue your own happiness, and be the best "you" you can be.

If your W offered to do things as a family you would go if you wanted to, and not go if you didn't, and you would make that decision based on how you were feeling and what you thought was best for the kids. The impact it might have or not have on her wouldn't even be on the radar.

When you are together with your W, what she says or does wouldn't impact you at all, you wouldn't be looking to her for anything, and she wouldn't feel like she has any impact on your state of mind. If she's funny you laugh, if she's mean you shrug.

Why would that be your best bet?

Because virtually anything else you will do will push her away. Any "strategy", any attempts to win her back, persuading, pursuing, demonstrating, explaining, none of it will work.

Most people learn that lesson painfully and slowly.

The problem with learning that lesson the hard way is that all these things you feel like you should try actually push her farther away and do more damage.

She wants space right now? Respect her wishes and give it to her -- it's the best thing you can do.

I've had a couple friends from this board for several years, and know their exes. One guy continues to try to "get his wife back", writes her cards, sends her letters, is *convinced* that if she just understood how much he loves her and how different things would be, she would come back. She avoids him because his constant pursuit and attention is stifling and she doesn't feel like he's hearing that she wants space, so she keeps running. Her perception of him is not able to change because she just keeps focusing on getting away.

In the other case, after the guy discovered his wife's affair, he just went the other direction. He was polite, but dropped contact completely unless it was about necessary logistics or about the kids. He went out and pursued his interests and she felt more or less cut off.

In that situation, she was initially still angry at him for whatever had happened over the course of their marriage, but the space he gave her gave her the opportunity to process that anger and move beyond it. After the anger was processed, which took several months, she started to remember the good times and what brought them together to begin with, and then began to feel like she *might* have made a mistake in straying instead of trying to work through things.

There is *no way* she would have gotten to that mental state if he had continued to pursue her. Instead she would have stayed angry and stayed focused on escaping.

What you need to do right now is give her the space she wants and take care of yourself. Do not measure the impact of your every decision based on what she will do in response. Live your life, find yourself, learn how to smile and have fun again. It is literally all you can do.

Acc

[srt]

Annoyed with myself again since at latest handover of kids, things got emotional for both of us, we argued, and unearthed more of the past again.

Tonight my wife said she had felt unloved by me for years, which hurts so bad since I know the depth of my feelings for her. I guess we have had communication issues in that we have been unable to get the message across when asking for what we want.

I am struggling badly to accept the current situation, feel so lonely all the time and miss both my wife and kids badly. I'm scared DBing is going to have the wrong effect for me at this time. I'm trying desperately to GAL, and I'm making progress but finding it difficult. I'm currently not at work, and I feel this is heightening my anxiety.

[srt]

Having slept on it I can now see DBing is the right approach - to just get on and be the best I can be.

However, I'd like to know from those with kids how they managed it? I think due to Mothers day being yesterday and the fact I had the kids all day pissed her off? Is this a good thing so that she is seeing the consequences of her actions?

[Accuray]

Yes this is very hard!

I'm scared DBing is going to have the wrong effect for me at this time.

This is the reason why it doesn't work for many people -- they doubt it is best and continue to pursue, beg, plead and do the things they shouldn't do, then when they finally give up on that it's too late.

Glad you slept on it and glad you're keeping the faith. How to deal with a hostile person who wants to argue with you is a difficult skill to master, but something you can do.

Simply refuse to engage. "I will not have this conversation with you now, I'm sorry that you seem upset" repeat, repeat.

Do not see her anger and spewing as a reflection on you or the situation, it's about the turmoil going on inside of her and there's nothing you can do about it.

[TimR]

"Do not see her anger and spewing as a reflection on you or the situation, it's about the turmoil going on inside of her and there's nothing you can do about it."

Accuray, I love that line and if it is true, I am in good shape bc my WW must have so much turmoil in her as her anger and spewing is so strong, nasty and constant!

Sorry to hijack.

[CWOL]

In that situation, she was initially still angry at him for whatever had happened over the course of their marriage, but the space he gave her gave her the opportunity to process that anger and move beyond it. After the anger was processed, which took several months, she started to remember the good times and what brought them together to begin with, and then began to feel like she *might* have made a mistake in straying instead of trying to work through things.

Was this LBH able to reconcile with his WW in the end? Or did he blazed a new path (at his own choosing)? Or did WW throw in the towel?

[broke]

CWOL - I have kids and the DB'ing has actually helped in my situation. I was very angry until I found this site about a month ago (H is in PA). And, I showed that anger all the time. By GAL'ing and trying to improve myself, I have stopped acting on the anger (I am still very angry, but it doesn't do any good for my kids to see it or my hopes of reconciliation). With regards to Mother's Day, she could've asked you to switch days with her? Or, in the future, you both could try to schedule a year out and take that into account….I have Mother's Day and he has Father's Day. It does show her that her actions have consequences - really all she had to do was ask to rearrange the days.

With regards to DB'ing in general, does it work? I don't know but I do know that begging, pleading and pursuing did NOT work in my case. It went on for almost 7 months and my H has filed for D, bought a new house and told our boys that he is proceeding with D. In the last month, I have been DB'ing and we are at least civil to one another and can co-parent effectively. And, I am a way better, stronger person to be in my next R with or without my H. Good Luck!

[srt]

Hey thanks for the reply, I did a bit of validating during and after and it felt good to be able to says things which I knew were going to help.
I guess I'm on a long and winding road, which is very different to my normal, direct way of travelling!

[CWOL]

CWOL - I have kids and the DB'ing has actually helped in my situation. I was very angry until I found this site about a month ago (H is in PA).

Yes, I am just wondering what happened to the cases Accuray wrote about... But on second reading, I noticed he used the words "exes" which lead me to believe they both ended up splitting.

[Accuray]

The first guy will be forever in limbo until he stops pursuing, which at this rate may be never. In the second situation these are recent events -- I'm not sure the guy is interested in going back at this point. That's kind of the beauty of dropping the rope -- if you reconcile it's because you want to and it seems like it will bring you joy, not because you feel you "have to" in order to make the pain stop.

That's where you want to be

Acc

[cubebot]

Isn't Mothers Day in May? Also, I am new here too (by no means a vet and I struggle everyday) Listen to these people. Listen to Accuracy. SLOW down, get the basics and work on yourself. You CAN do this, but you have to follow the process. When i was younger and just starting in my career path I once had a mentor that told me something and to be honest it didn't hit me until now. "When all else FAILS, the SYSTEM prevails". This is a process. You didn't get here overnight and you won't fix the core of your issues overnight. It requires lots of patience. You are not doing this to change HER you are doing this to make yourself a better MAN which ultimately makes you a better husband. But the MAN comes first.

[CWOL]

The first guy will be forever in limbo until he stops pursuing, which at this rate may be never. In the second situation these are recent events -- I'm not sure the guy is interested in going back at this point. That's kind of the beauty of dropping the rope -- if you reconcile it's because you want to and it seems like it will bring you joy, not because you feel you "have to" in order to make the pain stop.

That's where you want to be

Acc

You are probably right.
It is difficult for us "freshly betrayed" to see D as a successful result. But that is a result of our current perspective and framing of the problem, that might come as we see more of our WS's true self.

[Melo]

We LBH's have to be strong. Detaching and GAL is uncomfortable, but it helps us grow and that's exactly why we have to do it, because through growth we become better fathers and better men.

[Accuray]

Most of the feelings you are going through are driven by feeling "out of control" -- a marriage relationship is a place of stability -- we learn to count on it "for better or for worse". We feel like we can be ourselves and this person will have our back.

When one person unilaterally decides that they're done it comes as an extreme shock to the other person, because it undercuts so many assumptions about our lives, who we are, what we believe in, what we can trust, etc.

In addition, people are used to solving problems in their lives -- apply enough time and effort and the problem will be solved. This is a "problem" that doesn't work that way -- there is simply no way to will the other person to do what you want.

These two factors are a perfect emotional storm -- my world got turned upside down completely without warning, and nothing that I can do is going to fix it.

That's an extremely bitter pill to swallow, and that "out of control" feeling is awful. For some people it can feel unsurvivable, and leads to catastrophic thinking -- "I will never be happy again", "I will never find anyone as great as my spouse", "My life will be awful and people will judge me for being divorced" etc.

Therefore, subconsciously, we see regaining our spouse as the best way to regain our control. If you can see that for what it is, it has very little to do with how good or bad a person your spouse is, or how much you think you love them, it's really almost 100% about you trying to get the training wheels back on your bike.

In this climate, it can be very helpful to pursue things that help you to feel in control -- create and stick to a more rigid schedule, work out, diet to lose weight, pursue the same activity every day, fix your house, improve your finances. Teach your brain that your sense of being in control comes from YOU and not from the other person.

Divorce is not a great outcome. It takes two people to have a vibrant and healthy marriage but only one person to have a divorce -- sometimes there is simply nothing you can do to prevent it.

I promise you, however, that divorce is 100% survivable, and you can be very happy and thrive in it's wake -- almost everyone does eventually, and you come out a better person for what you've learned if you take the time to focus on you and address your baggage.

The success rate for second marriages is about 40% compared to 60% for first marriages (in the U.S.) There are lots of theories as to why second marriages are less likely to succeed. Here's mine: The first time you get divorced it is terrifying and you seriously worry about your survival. Therefore you're extra motivated to do whatever it takes to avoid it. Having been through it once, however, you learn that it *is* survivable, and what life after divorce looks like. I believe that this simple learning, that you will survive and be happy, makes people more willing to step out of second marriages and less willing to fight for them.

No matter what happens you will be fine. The opportunity life has handed you is the motivation to improve yourself. That motivation is hard to come by in the normal course of affairs, make the best of it!

[srt]

Thanks for your words of wisdom, I know I have to do this for me because there are no guarantees on what the outcome will be.
The hardest part I am finding is that there are children involved, and the complications this currently brings, and may do so in the future.
I think I'd be doing much better if there were no kids, I just keep thinking about how unfair it is for them - probably a negative cycle of thinking...
It's the detaching bit and validating I'm finding hardest to do.
I understand the point of detaching, but it's obviously tougher to do with kids, as I think the basic point is I'm not meant to care what my W chooses and not to be bothered by what she does, but am I meant to be "distant" or "cold" when talking with her? Or have I misinterpreted it?
The validating too seems tough as I'm not a natural at it!! Also our interaction is very much about actions/doing and doesn't really involve feelings that much.

Looking for tips on this and also the best approach to take in counselling - brutally honest? Validating? tough love? detached (not bothered about outcome)?

[Accuray]

I understand the point of detaching, but it's obviously tougher to do with kids, as I think the basic point is I'm not meant to care what my W chooses and not to be bothered by what she does, but am I meant to be "distant" or "cold" when talking with her? Or have I misinterpreted it?

You should not be distant or cold. There are two concepts at play here and they can be confusing. There is "The Last Resort Technique" mentioned in the book where you just "go dark" or stop communicating entirely and just withdraw all your emotional investment from the person 100%. Obviously with kids you can't go totally dark so that presents a challenge how you balance that. The point of that technique is not to punish the other person, but rather to give them the space they want entirely while at the same time establishing that you're not just going to sit on the shelf while they deal with their stuff. The thought is that (1) this will give them the emotional space to process their anger and move beyond it, which they won't do if you're constantly pursuing them, and (2) this will establish that you value yourself, and are someone to be valued, such that the wayward spouse will need to take some action to re-engage with you -- it's not a freebie. People value that what they have to work for and do not value that which is freely acquired.

Detaching, on the other hand, is just separating your emotional well-being from your wife's influence. That doesn't require you to be distant or cold -- just unaffected.

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about this -- if you are texting with a friend of yours and they suddenly stop responding, it doesn't turn your day upside down. You don't spend the next hour wondering why they stopped responding. You just go on with your day and probably forget about it pretty quickly, and the next time you engage with them you probably don't even remember that happened. You are detached, your friend's failure to respond really didn't impact you at all.

That's what you're going for. Your wife is happy around you? Great. Your wife is a raving lunatic spewing hate at you? Too bad for her, your toes are still tapping. You wake up with a plan for how you want to feel today, what you want to do, where you want to be, and you do it and you stick to it, and it doesn't matter if she's at her place knitting or running through the streets of the town naked -- it just doesn't impact your state of mind.

She'll get the sense that she's not influencing your moods and that will be very freeing to her as she's not being pursued, and at the same time will be unsettling because you're no longer an insurance policy sitting on the shelf.

I don't necessarily believe you can just "will yourself to detach", it's something that will happen with the passage of time, but it's something you have to work towards and as Michelle says "act as if"

[srt]

thanks accuray, that's what I'd interpreted "detaching" as, just looking for ocnfirmation.
Already I feel better about my sitch, though that may be because I'm just starting a new thing again.
The difference is I know this one will help me regardless of the outcome!

Anyone else able to offer advice re counselling question - best approach to take in counselling - brutally honest? Validating? tough love? detached (not bothered about outcome)?
Have an upcoming session and want to make sure it is productive if possible.

[Cristy]

Hello srt,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

These are very specific questions regarding how to respond/act in counseling. Different strategies work best at different times.

Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.

Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[Accuray]

Definitely use the DB coaching resources here -- they are priceless. Counseling is high stakes. Typically your wife will not share everything about how she's feeling and you will overshare.

Counselors I've spoken to say that couples usually come 4 years too late, at the point that one person is already "done" and is just coming to establish the other person as "wrong" or to help the other person find closure.

My best advice is to meet with the counselor 1:1 before going in with your wife and stack the deck. Talk about what you want to accomplish, what your wife is likely to say, ask how the counselor will respond. Tell the counselor what you want to stay away from. Get a sense for whether or not the counselor is going to help you or not and if not find a new counselor.

[srt]

my wife has recently been complimenting me (ie nice t-shirt, I like what you've done to car/house)

I've been acknowledging this by saying thankyou, and not really doing much else.
If this the DB way of dealing with this - I am unsure as to whether I'm being tested or anything else like she is trying to be nice - I guess it show she is noticing changes, and I'm trying not to "pursue" by echoing back.
Any thoughts?

[srt]

I should mention we have been in counselling for a few months, and it hasn't really made any progress so far, other than W initially aired her grievances, said she could not "forgive" them, and now states she does not want to come back or "try again".

Our counselling is not overtly pro or against any relationship, which annoys me, but tbh if it was pro I think she'd see right through it and either shut down or not attend.

I'm going at the moment not from a sense that I expect anything to change but rather that I'm willing to demonstrate I care, I'm prepared to change, and value the relationship.

The counsellor already know what I want to achieve, I'm just trying not to accelerate any "negative" changes from my perspective if W wants to change things from current separation.

[srt]

well, our counsellor has said currently not much more point in attending since W does not want to move back in, and does not want to progress to a D. We are starting to go over issues and round in circles rather than resolve anything.

in other news detaching is going really well, esp now I am seeing her becoming more angry and frustrated at the sitch she has put herself in. She knows I am ready to start workign on the M if she expresses an interest. Did some good DBing today when she blew up collecting the kids. Bit my tongue and then some validating later.

Off now to keep busy, starting to have no fear of the future no matter what it holds!

[broke]

Sounds like the DB'ing has been helping you. I am glad to hear that but sorry that the MC isn't going well. Hopefully, detaching will continue to give you confidence for the future for you and whatever relationship you are in (with or without your W).

[srt]

Thanks, yes I personally feel better now I'm going down the DB route, since I know it will help me if it all ends, and will also show her what she is going to lose.

MC is not really going bad, just stalled, but tbh it never really was moving as W was not interested in "trying". We'll see if that changes in the future or not.

[srt]

Well I'm still here, trying to detach as much as I can (harder doing than saying) and generally getting on a bit better.

I am finding it hard and I'm consciously trying not to be cold when talking, the difference between not asking or delving deeper when in conversation versus being a blank wall is kinda hard for me.

Wife is still complimenting me on appearance/clothes/housekeeping etc etc. Not sure how to handle this, I've just been saying thank you.
Don't know if I should be repaying the compliment or not???
I have been invited over to help with the kids, which was unexpected but good to see them more.

[sandi2]

I have passed around this copy, so you may have already seen it on another thread. It explains DBing detachment, and maybe it will clarify a little better for you. A lot of newcomers misunderstand what detaching is all about, so I hope this will help.


Below is a description of DBing detaching. Read it carefully b/c it will help you understand that detaching is not so much about the physical pulling away as it is other things.

*****************************************************

Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.

[srt]

still unsure about this one below - can anyone advise?

"Wife is still complimenting me on appearance/clothes/housekeeping etc etc. Not sure how to handle this, I've just been saying thank you.
Don't know if I should be repaying the compliment or not???"

[Zephyr]

Compliments are fine when they are warrented AND if you have no alterior motive.

Would you tell your neighbor thank you very much or that was so very thoughtful, if they cooked you a meal...or woukd you just say thanks and leave it at that? Use the neighborly kindness as a blueprint...

Also do not take the compliments from her as anything more right now either...again if you did something nice for your neighbor, you would have no expectation over any thank you back, correct?

[Vanilla]

I would validate and say thanks

Acknowledge the compliment

That's a lovely thing to say thank you.

That's enough of a repayment.

My thoughts

V

[srt]

Thanks to all for the previous replies.
Been finding the last few days quite difficult, but, I've not let up with the DBing so I haven't instigated contact or done anything clingy.

The GAL is going ok but struggling with the anger I have towards the W now. I never let it show or spill over when we are together but how do other members deal with this?

[albac]

Srt,
I am going through very much the same as you. One minute I think I am in control DBing and doing ok. The next minute she does or says something that just makes me angry at her. It just bounces back and forward so far though every time I have felt anger I have not shown it. I have just given it time to register in my mind I think it through and I have always been able to be polite and objective without showing anger or going the other way and looking needy or pursuing.

Basically I just tell myself that she is probably looking for a reaction and she is not herself at the moment and that gets me through. That's just how I am dealing with it but I am very new here. Maybe some of the vets have other ideas for you.

[sandi2]

Are you and W currently living in separate houses? Are you financing any of her expenses?

Yes, I would say you have a wayward wife.

[1313]

Thanks to all for the previous replies.
Been finding the last few days quite difficult, but, I've not let up with the DBing so I haven't instigated contact or done anything clingy.

The GAL is going ok but struggling with the anger I have towards the W now. I never let it show or spill over when we are together but how do other members deal with this?

srt - not to sound totally cliché but it really is one day at a time. Be careful as to how/where you vent too.

My WAW was accusing me of reading her emails, etc. and as it turns out I should have realized this meant she was projecting and reading mine. I had already moved out, but neglected to realize that they had an IT person get through my password at a computer at her office, and she was keeping tabs of everything I was saying/doing. Unfortunately, all of my friends are hours away, so I converse with one via email. I vented - boy did I vent almost to the point of having fun with it. I used language and said things I would never say to a human being - but she saw it.

Although I now know she can no longer read my messages I've stopped, because even that was wrong. I've been working very hard on forgiveness. Because that will free me up from these emotions. If she actually practiced what she preached (you can go see my thread for history) then it would be even easier.

I have to admit though, I spend more time being sad and guilty rather than being angry, except when I'm being attacked. I've lost my friends, I've lost my family, I've made some terrible mistakes.

All I can really do is improve for myself, take care of my Mother (no kids) and look to a brighter future. If the WAW becomes part of that great, if not, great. The truth will out eventually, and the poison that the WAW has injected in everyone will either continue to take hold, or not.

Unlike you, I have zero contact with my WAW, for a while I had her proxy in the form of her assistant, but even that is pretty much over. I hadn't seen the WAW for 2 months, until court last week. Before you see her, practice meditating, deep breathing - any exercises you can to free yourself of these thoughts, because even your body language will tell her how you feel.

Continue doing what you're doing, because more of it is for you than you know.

[srt]

Hi, she has moved out and taken the kids, I am not financing any of it - she is out of an unexpected "inheritance".

The more I think about it the more I am sure she is going through an MLC.

[Accuray]

The more I think about it the more I am sure she is going through an MLC.

I'm sure others may disagree with me but I don't think this matters at all. What you should be doing doesn't change no matter what's motivating your wife's choices.

The tough thing is that the LBS is really in no position to diagnose the WAS. The behaviors you see can't be separated as being due to the breakdown of the relationship or a breakdown of the person.

I fear that searching for answers or plans in self-diagnosing your WAS is a can of worms that doesn't lead you anywhere productive.

Stick to DB -- it doesn't matter if your W is MLC, a WAW, Batshit Crazy, or completely rational and just "done". What you should be doing is exactly the same in all of these cases.

Acc

[srt]

Just back from an easter walk with W and S&D.
Managed to arrange holidays after some friction, I was annoyed W had started to make plans for days and arragements etc without first arranging who would have kids when in hols - row etc, but sorted it fine the next day.
Felt I had to stand up for myself here - said I wanted to be able to plan things too and couldn't until we knew where kids were.
In row wife said she had actually started to miss the 4 of us doing things together, but then said the row was "why we could never work".

Anyway walk today was good fun, W though would not sit next to me when kids were playing - noticed this but didn't let it bother me. She has also yet to pick up any mail from M home. Many of her possesions are still here but she is very slowly - as in one item a month, taking some things as and when she needs them.

Wife is also telling me lots of things that are going in her life, news about friends, family etc. Her health is suffering a bit lately. I've just been listening and trying like crazy to validate.

In other news still trying to figure out my 180's:
I've not been initiating any contact, no "i love you's"
trying to be positive/happy (really tough - gutted inside)
keeping calm in front of kids and doing exciting things with them
trying to be "flexible" and co-operative whilst standing up and not being a doormat (not sure if W is cake eating)
getting exercise and getting out/seeing friends.

My IC is pushing me to "move on" saying R is over - I don't believe she can diagnose that as she is only seeing one side of story. I know I'm not done, and I'm not prepared to give up yet.

[mutatio]

Don't move on until you say it's time. If you do you may carry regret for eternity. You may move on subconsciously first and not even realize it. However it manifests itself, you will move on when your ready. Once you step through that door, it's likely to be over for good. There is a slight possibility she could change her mind but those are long odds and I don't view that as a realistic outcome. Be patient, be strong

[srt]

handed over kids again today, this time for a week.
Been finding exchanges difficult for me in that I'm trying to detach, but also act as-if; not pursuing but trying to be positive.
Also I know I'm not a natural at validation - any tips for how to respond to wife commenting that she is or is not wearing make-up? Has certain types of clothes on?

[mutatio]

I still struggle to make that validating statement at the right moment. Between the stress of a strained conversation and natural timing I miss many opportunities. What I am trying to do is make validation a habit. When I speak with kids or anyone I try to respond in a validating manner. This is a effective way to train myself since I never used to respond like that. I think that the world would be a better place if we all did a little more validating.

Accuray posted an important thought. Whatever your wife's thinking is you are here, on this path. The most effective course of action is to rediscover yourself. Assess yourself and make the necessary improvements. Find some things that interest you and explore them. Do something that makes your eyes light up when you talk about it. I like metal art so I am taking a welding class. After a hard day of work I am still driven to go to that class. Find something you WANT to do and explore it, even if it's under water basket weaving.

Your short term goals are to create a PMA, validate when possible and find an activity that your passionate about. Be strong

[srt]

I have a few other questions I'l like advice on, other than the one of how to deal with compliments and "compliment searching" from the W.

1. I am still wearing my wedding ring, W is not, do I continue to wear it or not? Wife has said she will sometimes wear engagement ring as she likes it in front of Daughter

2. My brother is getting married in Summer and W wants to be able to see kids doing flowergirl/usher duties. I'm inclined to play tough and remind her she is currently not invited, and therefore not welcome (consequences and all that).

3. Wife is often bringing up events in our past (not bad things, sometimes funny or interesting stuff) in front of kids. How am I to deal with this?

4. Wife has still not moved all possessions out of the house. Should I just ignore this and not let it bother me? Or insist they are all removed to show boundaries?

[Accuray]

srt,

1. Do whatever you want to do, regardless of the impact it will have on W. Literally think "what do *I* want?" and then do that.

2. Don't bring it up at all. Just proceed on the basis that she will not be coming. If your brother wants to invite her, that's up to him, but she will not be your "plus one". If she asks you directly you could say that you're planning to go alone but would be happy to take lots of pictures for her.

3. That stuff is part of your life forever, if she's sharing fun family memories enjoy in the fun for the sake of the kids. If she's saying things, which in your opinion, are making the kids uncomfortable, then talk to her one-on-one, explain your concern regarding the kids and that you would prefer for their sake that you not discuss those topics in front of them right now.

4. What do *you* want? Forget trying to "game" W. If you like her stuff there for whatever reason then let it stay there. If it will help your GAL/180/Act-as-if not to have it there, then box it up for her and ask her to come get it, or ask her when you can drop it off.

The answer to each of these questions is "what do you want?" and then do that. This has the double-advantage of having you live with integrity and also demonstrating that you are "your own person" and leading your own life the way you want to lead it. That's attractive.

Acc

[srt]

Accuray, thanks v much for the reply - those were what I was thinking but didn't want to didn't want to do anything non-DB before checking.

I planned to add an extra one but forgot

5. W up until now has wanted to iron my work shirts "so I look smart" - do I allow this or refuse to show boundaries (it's actually a great help, but I don't want to allow it if it help her feel "better" about the situation she has created) Thoughts?

[srt]

oops and any tips on how to respond to wife chatting about her looks / make-up etc?

Not sure if she is fishing for a compliment and whether I should give one or not?

[mutatio]

5. W up until now has wanted to iron my work shirts "so I look smart" - do I allow this or refuse to show boundaries (it's actually a great help, but I don't want to allow it if it help her feel "better" about the situation she has created) Thoughts?

I would have no problem with it but this is all about you. What do you want? Your shirts done or not to make your wife feel better? Why do you want to deny your wife? Are you looking to punish her for her actions? What do you want to achieve?

any tips on how to respond to wife chatting about her looks / make-up etc?

I would be authentic. If you like enjoy talking with her continue. If the conversation is not of your liking, excuse yourself and find something more pleasing to you.

[srt]

Thanks for the post, I'm really finding decisions that affect us both a bit of a minefield at the moment. Also sometimes feel a bit paralysed to make a decision unless it is the wrong one or I cannot justify it.

Yesterday was a better day; spent some time cleaning the house and fixing lunch, then went for a walk and caught up with a colleague I've not seen since I was at work. Later one we watched the game and had some beers.

Trying to wake up, get up, attack the days with a PMA and GAL!!!

[srt]

edit above: I meant to say "incase it is the wrong one or I cannot justify it"!!!!!!!!!!!

[srt]

Well I've had 2 days of GAL - spent some time with my brother who is visiting and did some hobbies. Missing my kids like crazy this week and finding it harder than ever. Any tips? - I've done all the tidying, sorting out and fixing I can think of yet still don't seem to feel any "inner confidence" or calm. I'm becoming more and more distressed as time goes on.

Have not had any contact from wife at all this week, going to wait until she initiates - she'll have to bring over the kids anyway at the weekend so that will be an opportunity. She has previously said in MC that she "is done" and "does not want to try at the marriage". However at last session she said she does not want to rush into anything or make any changes to current circumstances. I can only take this as a positive, but finding it very hard to stop building my hopes.

Going to try some validation and repaying compliments if they arise, it's funny because I thought I saw a sparkle in her eye the last few times we were talking. Trying to detach is difficult - I'm now interpreting it as in my head I've not to care what she does or where she goes, her decisions and mistakes are hers to make, BUT also to listen and be interested in what she has to say when we have contact.

[Accuray]

srt, get out an interact with other people as much as you can. Go out with friends if possible, have someone over, talk to someone on the phone. If no one is available go somewhere crowded and if you can't do that, go out and exercise like crazy. Ride a bike, go for a run, etc. Human interaction helps immensely as does exercise.

Acc

[srt]

checking in again, had a week of GAL and holiday time with kids, lots of fun and helped take my mind off things.
Tried to maintain NC i.e. did not initiate and this worked well for me. Not sure if W has twigged yet that if she wants to talk/discuss it must now come from her.
At changeover was "as if" and kids were really showing what a great time they had during hols. She managed to have a dig, saying "you never wanted to do that before" - I couldn't think of what to say to validate this, and couldn't ignore it since it was directly stated, but also didn't want an argument about it. I simply said I couldn't remember that.
Goals for this week are to sort out my goals!
Needing to start taking the DB book seriously and starting to put it into practice. In many ways I feel I've been treading water up to now and slowly sinking, this is despite friends and family saying I am doing all I can do.

[Accuray]

You sound good -- stay strong!

[srt]

Thanks Accuray, I think we all know how encouraging messages of support are, I really appreciate it.

I'm just back from handover of kids, tried to ask to get more time with them through the week, since I only get them a couple of hours in between the weekends.
This did not go down well, wife was angry etc.
I considered leaving (boundaries), but it was at her place and I wanted to try and resolve this since I've been finding it very hard for a long time.

We chatted for a while about it - I tried validating like hell but I'm not sure how much of it she heard. W still mentioned not "belonging" in this area - ie wanting to move to the city, and was also talking about kids in the "future" spending more time with me and less with her (more signs of MLC?). Upsetting to hear but I tried not to let it affect me, just kept saying I wanted what was best for the kids

Not sure if I've messed up a lot of good work or not with this conversation, at least I kept my cool and didn't get angry or take the bait. There were some tears from both of us though. W was visibly upset, and I could tell did not want to talk about it. She also complained about not hearing from us in holidays, I said I could see she had found it tough and she just has to call me (implying that I'm giving her space).

I think I'll continue the NC, and leave talking about access for a few days/a week before I bring it up again.

Wife also said she felt she'd messed things up, and was concerned about what my family think of her. I just tried to validate this again without agreeing/disagreeing or offering advice.

I suggested she could talk about it next time we meet but she declined. I found the whole conversation really tough but also surreal, and was constantly thinking is this the DB way. She didn't really decide anything, emotionally she was all over the place, seeming to regret what she had done, but with no plan or mention at all about a R.

It has saddened me but I know I've got to stay strong and continue to detach.

Any advice or takes on the above greatfully received

[srt]

I should also add - how do I deal with W when she behaves like a petulant teenager?

I in the above situation, something is needing to be discussed and resolved, but her response is to get angry emotional and say stupid stuff rather than face the issue?

Up until now I've only been able to back away and raise it again at another opportunity? In some ways, she gets what she wants from this (cake eating) and I'm not sure how to counter it?

I don't mean this as a me v her thing or winning/losing - just genuinely how do you resolve difficult stuff like this when your spouse behaves like that?

[TxHubby]

checking in again, had a week of GAL and holiday time with kids, lots of fun and helped take my mind off things.
Tried to maintain NC i.e. did not initiate and this worked well for me. Not sure if W has twigged yet that if she wants to talk/discuss it must now come from her.
At changeover was "as if" and kids were really showing what a great time they had during hols. She managed to have a dig, saying "you never wanted to do that before" - I couldn't think of what to say to validate this, and couldn't ignore it since it was directly stated, but also didn't want an argument about it. I simply said I couldn't remember that.
Goals for this week are to sort out my goals!
Needing to start taking the DB book seriously and starting to put it into practice. In many ways I feel I've been treading water up to now and slowly sinking, this is despite friends and family saying I am doing all I can do.

When they give you the "you never wanted to do that before" you respond with "I know. I should have. You have helped me realize a lot of changes I needed to make and now I'm making them and loving it. Thank you so much for that." Then just let it rest. She can inquire about joining the great new you and working on the M or she won't. Either way you're going to be fine.

[1gr8dad]

Hi SRT,

Please recognize that you're in a very difficult position. A lot of the advice will be like people telling you not to eat when you feel very hungry -- it just feels wrong to follow it and takes a LOT of discipline.

If you could DB perfectly here's what it would look like:

You would just "do your own thing", pursue your own happiness, and be the best "you" you can be.

If your W offered to do things as a family you would go if you wanted to, and not go if you didn't, and you would make that decision based on how you were feeling and what you thought was best for the kids. The impact it might have or not have on her wouldn't even be on the radar.

When you are together with your W, what she says or does wouldn't impact you at all, you wouldn't be looking to her for anything, and she wouldn't feel like she has any impact on your state of mind. If she's funny you laugh, if she's mean you shrug.

Why would that be your best bet?

Because virtually anything else you will do will push her away. Any "strategy", any attempts to win her back, persuading, pursuing, demonstrating, explaining, none of it will work.

Most people learn that lesson painfully and slowly.

The problem with learning that lesson the hard way is that all these things you feel like you should try actually push her farther away and do more damage.

She wants space right now? Respect her wishes and give it to her -- it's the best thing you can do.

I've had a couple friends from this board for several years, and know their exes. One guy continues to try to "get his wife back", writes her cards, sends her letters, is *convinced* that if she just understood how much he loves her and how different things would be, she would come back. She avoids him because his constant pursuit and attention is stifling and she doesn't feel like he's hearing that she wants space, so she keeps running. Her perception of him is not able to change because she just keeps focusing on getting away.

In the other case, after the guy discovered his wife's affair, he just went the other direction. He was polite, but dropped contact completely unless it was about necessary logistics or about the kids. He went out and pursued his interests and she felt more or less cut off.

In that situation, she was initially still angry at him for whatever had happened over the course of their marriage, but the space he gave her gave her the opportunity to process that anger and move beyond it. After the anger was processed, which took several months, she started to remember the good times and what brought them together to begin with, and then began to feel like she *might* have made a mistake in straying instead of trying to work through things.

There is *no way* she would have gotten to that mental state if he had continued to pursue her. Instead she would have stayed angry and stayed focused on escaping.

What you need to do right now is give her the space she wants and take care of yourself. Do not measure the impact of your every decision based on what she will do in response. Live your life, find yourself, learn how to smile and have fun again. It is literally all you can do.

Acc

Amazing Post Accuray, I have to say this really spoke to me, thank-you.

[srt]

Hi txhubby, thanks for that, this validating is really making me think on my feet. In some ways that's good as because I'm pausing to think about things I'm not spewing like she is and I'm also not saying things that are going to do more damage.
Big milestone later today for me with work, hoping things go well, wish me luck!

[Accuray]

Hey srt,

If you have a difficult topic you want to discuss or something you think that's going to trigger her, the best way to approach it is not to spring it on her. In that context you've been thinking about it and she has not, so she will likely react poorly. Try sending her a message in advance or mentioning something in advance. "I'd like to see us split time with the kids more evenly, I'd like to discuss that with you on Thursday after we exchange the kids. Please give it some thought between now and then."

That way she has time to mentally prepare and you're less likely to get tantrums.

The other thing that's a good idea is to have some documented agreements. When you get divorced in the US there are two components to the divorce settlement, a custody agreement and a financial settlement.

In some cases, people will agree on these provisionally even for trial separations. i.e. you might write up a set of agreements about your custody schedule and your finances "for now" so that you both know what the rules will be.

Trying to make the rules "as you go" by confronting things as they arise tends to be more stressful.

It may feel like pushing your W away by bringing up the topic of a separation agreement, but realistically you're just supporting what she wants, which is good validation.

Acc

[mutatio]

Treat her with compassion and take Accuray's advice it is wise. TxHubby's suggestion was great. You have great friends.

srt, it is a long struggle be patient, be well

[srt]

Another check in today, big milestone in getting back to work this week, hoping this really help with my mental health - been feeling v down, lonely and desperate recently. Trying like crazy to be upbeat and not show it but I know I wear my feelings on my sleeve.

Did some good GAL too, reconnected with a biking group and gonna maintain that for the physical workout and mental release.

No real change in my sitch, maintaining NC as far as I can, and trying to look my best and be upbeat.

Wondering on advice about 2 things.

I've previously asked if during my time with kids I should invite wife, she seemed a little pissed this did not happen during spring break, and the NC from me during that time. I told her I'm simply a call away and she just has to let me know. HOWEVER in DR it says I need to "try" stuff. Wondering if this is the time (7 months separated) to "invite" her to do some more family things with me and kids in my time? In 2 minds about this as I've been NC for nearly 2 months now and want her to see the loss she will have, but equally I'm also aware I might need to make the first small move? She hasn't invited me to stuff recently either. I don't want to pursue !??!? Confused! W has said she misses doing things the 4 of us.

Secondly D has birthday soon, W has not mentioned any plans yet re party or gifts etc. I've went ahead and sorted out some presents for D from my end. I'm wondering again if this is the time to gift presents just from me, instead of from both of us ??? Again aware of potential to backfire, just don't want to be a doormat or allow cake-eating (cherry pick all the best bits of family life with no committment to anything else.

[Accuray]

Others may disagree but I think it's best for your daughter if gifts come from both of you versus separate gifts from mom and dad.

Regarding inviting her to do stuff with you and the kids, it really depends what you can handle. Doing things as a family is good for the kids *provided* you two are interacting in a healthy way during the time you're together and the kids aren't picking up on stress and angst.

Therefore, the question to you is "can you handle that with NO expectations that it will lead to anything you want?"

This is where a lot of people kid themselves. They really really want to do things with their ex, and they want it to be okay from a DB perspective, so they do it and then have high expectations for the positive impact it's going to have.

Then, it either doesn't make the situation better, or it backfires because the WAS makes some nasty comments, and its a devastating setback and then triggers all kinds of pursuit behavior and/or other panic, followed by withdrawal and brooding.

Right now you want things from your ex that she doesn't want to give you. That's a toxic situation for you given how badly you want them. Can you handle that toxic situation? Can you walk into it knowing it's not going to change anything the next day and still be okay with that?

Will you be able to wake up the next day feeling no worse than you do no?

If so then invite away! If not, then give yourself more time to heal and process. This is a marathon, not a sprint, and there is no magic number of months that's going to change anything. It's all about how you're doing and what you can handle.

Acc

[srt]

Hi, Accuray, as always thanks for the advice, really insightful to learn more about WHY to follow Sandi's rules.

As it happen W has suggested we all meet up this weekend (I will have kids). I was unsure if she is being selfish by asking, but then unsure if I am being spiteful by declining.

I suppose I should give it further thought, and I told her I'd think about it.

I should say though that I didn't exactly go out of my way to organise things before BD day. Maybe this could be one of my 180s - read someone else on a different thread asking this? As always open to thoughts on this.

In other news work is going well, maintaining NC as best as I can and having a blast with the kids. Feeling better than I have for months.

[Accuray]

DB is all about nuance -- you say you "didn't go out of your way to organize things before BD day"

Was that one of your W's specific complaints?

Your 180's are best done in the format where you can do them regardless of what she's doing. i.e. organize things for the kids regardless of whether or not W participates.

180's are about life changes that YOU want to make to make you a better person, they are not about "putting on a show" temporarily for your WAW, because they always see through that, disbelieve it, and dismiss it as not real.

Don't use a 180 as an excuse to do something you're not really ready for.

[srt]

Hi thanks Accuray, yes I think it was one of the things she complained about, but also she didn't want to come before BD day so that just weighed me down.

I have been doing some great GAL with me and the kids, so I suppose I've done a 180 (duh and I hadn't even realised!!!) and yes couldn't care less about what she thinks, we're still doing it! Hope she realises she is missing out.

This time it is a little different as W has suggested the activity and place in "my" time with the kids. 'd probably be taking them anyway. Just wondering if I should be open to her coming or not. It's not "a show" for me, she now knows I am a great Dad. Could this be her reaching out in a "safe" way - I have been trying to go NC for the last 2 months.
Thinking about the need for her to feel "loss" too as per Sandi's threads...

confused - can see arguments both ways on this one

[Accuray]

I would apply the governing rule -- independent of the impact it might have on your wife, what do *you* want, and what can you handle?

If this interaction is likely to make you feel worse afterwards, don't do it.

If this interaction is likely to get your hopes up that things will be better, don't do it.

If you can go into this interaction with no expectations for anything improving AND you want to spend time together as a family, then do it!

Acc

[srt]

I should add to this that in the last "R" "chat" we had W was saying she had "messed up" and "[censored] everything and everyone up" regarding our M.
She was also concerned about what my family think of her? Strange since if she is determined to D she'd never really see them again?
In the same chat she was also talking about arrangements with kids in the future with undertone that we are still separated, and reiterated her belief that she "belongs" in the city.

I know the believe nothing you hear, and little of what they do (she has also changes mailing address of several things to her rental), but I'm still unsure about what to do about this weekend.

I feel I've been a bit of a pushover so far, and I'm very keen to avoid cake eating...

[sandi2]

You flagged me down on another thread and said you had a question. I will try to answer the best that I know, and if I don't know......I will tell ya.

[srt]

Hi Sandi, thanks so much for the reply. My dilemma is I'm unsure how I should react to W request to spend family time together as per my last 2 posts.

I can see arguments either way - tough love for the "no thanks" and 180, and for the kids to say "OK yes lets do that". Further detail above.

REALLY unsure about this one, and genuinely lost.

[srt]

sorry I meant to say agreeing to this kind of is a 180 (even though I'd be going if she hadn't asked) and would also be nice for kids

[srt]

Bump for sandi reply

[sandi2]

Look at what you said in your first post:

Wife had EA Oct 12, after discovery things improved for a couple of years, then slowly soured. I felt I couldn't trust her and she was being secretive and giving all signs of being in an A.
ILLBINILWY Jan 15, this knocked me for six, no idea what to do or where to turn, didn't help I'd been withdrawing and not getting involved as much as I should have. W family v enmeshed/controlling and she had v little time for me.
BD Aug 16, again shellshocked but with hindsight I should have seen it coming. W moved out with kids Sep 15.
Currently I am getting IC, and we are both in MC, but W says she does not want to R. Getting scared of D and effect on D&S.

This appears to be a repeated behavior for both of you. Whatever method was applied in 2012 did not work for the long haul.

She seems determined to D you........oh, but wait.......she wants to continue the whole happy family routine. She needs a news flash that tells her divorced couples do not continue being best buds and doing things as a family. That's called a marriage, not a divorce.

I should add to this that in the last "R" "chat" we had W was saying she had "messed up" and "[censored] everything and everyone up" regarding our M

So? Why do you think she wants to continue doing things like a family? Until her actions matches her words......do not believe anything has changed.

[srt]

thanks Sandi, I guess I'd been unsure whether to remain the doormat and invite her to come along, or risk her goign in the huff.
What I'm going to do is go anyway, and if she wants to come she's going to have to speak up, contact me and turn up herself. She knows when the event is.
I certainly won't be inviting her or announcing what time I'm going.

I really do feel I've made some really important changes for me, also now realising the HUGE negative effect she allowed her family to have on her and our marriage.

Thanks

[sandi2]

I guess I'd been unsure whether to remain the doormat and invite her to come along, or risk her goign in the huff.

Why would a man ever have "remain the doormat" as one of his options? And, why would he think it's some type of risk-taking if she goes in a huff?

Men just aren't very attractive without b@lls.

[srt]

Hi Sandi, I assume you mean that she is still "cake eating" unless she is saying she wants family things to happen, and SHE is actively instigating them.

She ended up coming to the event at the weekend, I thought I could handle it, but afterwards wished she hadn't. Any tips on a non-confrontational way to refuse these in future? I don't want her to be able to say I'm deliberately doing stuff to get back at her, but equally I want to start laying down some boundaries as I feel helpless in the situation.

This week will be interesting, D has birthday and I think a small party at W condo. I'm unsure if I want to go, I'd rather keep dropping contact with W as it just depresses me. However I still want to see D on her birthday and ensure she gets her presents. I might arrange a small party for her the next night at mine, still unsure about this. Any advice or tips from fellow DB'ers with young kids on how to approach this?

[sandi2]

If there is a divorce, everyone won't get to share the daughter on the calendar date of her birthday. However, you can celebrate her birthday any day of the year. If there is a divorce, she will be having two birthday celebrations, two Chistmastimes, two of everything. Understandbly, I hate it for you, however, your W is the one who needs to learn what divorce looks like.

You must learn to tell your W "no"! Sometimes you just have to bluntly say you think under the circumstances, you had rather she didn't come. This is what separation involves.

When a man is scared of losing his W and starts letting her do whatever she wants, it kills her attraction. That is just how women are wired. She will test the H to see how far she can push him, but secretly, she is hoping he will be man enough to stop her from being a bully. Your W will never you tell you this......and perhaps no other woman will, but I'll tell you it is the truth.

[srt]

checking in again

I've decided I'll go and see my daughter on her birthday but only for a short time - otherwise the presence of W just gets to me - this detachment is so hard when you can't avoid their physical presence due to handovers of kids.

In other news my parents are advising me to go for the big bad D, and to give back to her the spew she dishes to me, albeit in a more controlled manner. Virtually certain she is in MLC now so very afraid of this backfiring, I feel to continue to DB is best, albeit it is tough on me. I feel a D is just giving up, and I want no regrets at the end of this (couldn't care what W feels at the end).

Finally W has asked for a copy of some of my photos of kids - really not happy about this, she was the one who walked but now wants to call the shots on things like this. What is the best way for me to go about getting things like this, child access and other things agreed when they are in ultra bitch mode all the time? I find she has some cheek asking for this after refusing to allow more access.

[Accuray]

Has your W been requesting a D and have you been resisting, or is your family suggesting that you pursue a D proactively?

I am divorced and it doesn't need to be as dire as Sandi outlines above -- we share the kids on their calendar birthday (we jointly attend the party and/or dinner), we all get together on Christmas, etc. As long as you keep it amicable there doesn't need to be a Chinese wall between you.

On your question about giving W photos of the kids, don't engage if they are in ultra-bitch mode. Create a boundary that if you aren't spoken to respectfully, you won't respond.

What basis does she have to deny you access? They are your kids too, why is she the gate keeper?

[srt]

hi all, thanks for the replies - very much appreciated.

I'm pretty much going to say "no thanks" to all her requests to share family time now, unless she has the kids and it's something I want to do. As you have all said I understand she now needs to know practically what a D will be like.

W has only mentioned D at counselling, and that was in response to question from counsellor about what to do next - she was unsure about what the next thing would be.
She knows I do not want that, but I know it may require her to be staring it in the face before she "wakes up".
Family are suggesting I serve her - I can do this in a less confrontational way by getting legal protections set up for what would happen to kids/home/finances. I may need to take her to mediation to get this arranged as she does not bring any of this up, and the last R chat left me pretty certain she is still in MLC mode.

Regarding photos I'm annoyed at her request when she regularly denies me any more contact than I have already (I'm not going to her place to "share" her time) - I get a couple of hours w kids in the week and a day and a half at weekends. I feel like saying she walked away from all that when she left this house. She also still has possessions here - not sure if this bothers me or not.

I suppose my next step is to see a lawyer and try and get "protected" for when the next step comes.

[CWOL]

I suppose my next step is to see a lawyer and try and get "protected" for when the next step comes.

Always a good idea to add to your knowledge. You should take the chance to interview a few lawyers to make sure you pick one that will work with you, if the D does get filed.

[srt]

I should say that things are always civil between us until it gets onto a "difficult" issue for her, like time with kids, holidays, relationship, etc.

I've not been pushing these things as she just puts up a wall. I'm unsure if it's cheeseless tunnels or just a front to prevent/protect her in the bubble.

However I know she is not dealing with stuff that must be resolved - the current situation is just dragging and that is my biggest annoyance.

[srt]

Back again,

finding things tough again and finding it hard to detach. I'm keeping up NC as best I can with kids. But struggling with the sense of pointlessness this whole sitch is.

Feeling like giving up, and other times in tears, this is after 8 months of pouring everything I have into it. Been DBing the last 2/3 months and initially it made it easier but feel myself slipping again.

Sometimes I just want to ask W what is going on and what is happening with US - it seems to me like we are just drifting further apart.

I keep getting the urge to do something, and have been through the DR book several times. However I can't see much I can change about the situation/interactions without slipping over into pursuing.

How will I know if things are getting better? This really is killing me at the moment and I just want the whole thing to end.

[Vanilla]

Srt

I will work you sitch.

You asked an interesting question about the 37 rules of me and I have replied with my view.

So your 180 is within the context of the guidance.

I will revert for you, others may give you better guidance. I improved my R and did not save my M and I did save myself.

V

[srt]

Hi vanilla, thanks so much for the reply - I'm going to go over my shortcomings and list of W gripes and make sure that following all "the rules" does not mean more of the same. Also going to check my 180's are still relevant and for me.

Tonight was interesting in the MH. At changeover really good chat about weekend etc and then out of the blue W mentions old pram in the loft - won't be needing that in future etc. Also then get onto talking about changing childcare days to suit her next year. I simply said we'll have to talk about it. I know she will be awkward as hell and want all the arrangements her way so it suits her work. I'm not prepared to do that since she made no concessions to me for extra time with kids when I've previously asked. She even launched into the defensive with a story about "we" agreed she would go part-time to look after kids??? AFAIK there is no WE anymore!

I'm getting the feeling she must have felt the need to do some button pushing, since the interaction was pretty positive. I guess she is trying to justify what she is doing - still giving MLC entitlement messages I think.

[srt]

I should say I recently discovered my wife had started this blog


it scream MLC to me, and is something she started to do around the time I noticed changes.
Later photos do not have her wedding ring either, something she lied to me about at the time.

I know I need to detach, but felt this was a decent enough chunk of information that would help me determine if in an MLC or not.

[Vanilla]

Please start a new thread

[Cadet]

New thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2673533#Post2673533