New night(s)

[kyrie]

Thanks Trumpet - I hope you're well today.
Starting to have some second thoughts ...thinking more about going totally dark.
What is the LRT exactly?

[25yearsmlc]

I'm not even done catching up on your thread but just wanted to say that you're so actively working here - I commend you. Truly, I do.

Thanks Trumpet. Hope you're well.
My H keeps saying how insulting it is that I GAL and act like everything is fine. I tried to validate by saying that I know everything isn't 'fine' with us.

What a sad spin he's putting on the fact that you're CHOOSING to TRY and be happy, despite things not being fine...

Makes me wonder if he'd prefer you to be (or at least ACT) miserable? IF so, is it so he won't feel alone, or b/c he feels somehow "less than", in the relationship?

And forgive me if I've overlooked your answer to a question I keep asking, but something tells me there's a real problem IN HIM that he may not admit, (or know he has) with you being the bread winner.

Can you tell is if the "Plan" was always this way or that he'd make more later or did your career simply surprise you with it's pay? I mean, if this WAS the plan, (ie he wouldn't earn much but you would, what changed in HIM or You or both?


I DO feel better when I put the best construction on things, focus on growth and gratitude.

^^ I see this as counting your blessings, having a good attitude and being grateful. Please don't stop this process, as I am convinced it's healthy AND it's God's will. I mean, I'm not expert but this^^ just sounds intuitively and spiritually "Right"...

and his behavior or spin, not so much.

He didn't like it but he pivoted to something else to aim at.
Things have been a little less hostile. Still sniping, still 'testing' me. Dunno.


I still haven't written out that pro/con of stay or go. When I started to, a lot of it sounded more like just excuses to stay.

Interesting. I think it can appear empty at first...but if you do it somewhat often (monthly/weekly??) there might be a day or hour or middle of the night moment of clarity, in which you just know.

A moment in which you say "I CHOOSE TO --- LEAVE -- or TO STAY
but whatever that moment is,

I hope it's teamed up with the words "and be loving & happy with my choice."

Which may have been her point. But none of them are 'deal breaking' excuses... so it seemed like an empty exercise if that's all there is to it. Who knows.

((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

I hear you about that rock bottom (if he can ever reach it... he's managed a LOOONG time just missing it).

Do not underestimate the power of 1) Inertia and or 2) a man's capacity for wallowing in their "stuckness", which is like one step above catastrophe and "the bottom",

By analogy, Some folks are FORCED to move (evicted?) and so, they go...but up till that moment -- they'll stew about how "crowded or cluttered or messy & dirty their room is, and wallow in it or sleep in it and blame others for it, or ignore what everyone else sees.

So to sum up, my point is, don't necessarily think that:

A) he will hit rock bottom, AND B) realize it is the bottom rung;

AND C) that he will GET UP from there.

He may well stay one notch above "bottom" and worse, he may want you there with him.

FIxing this isn't impossible but it's darn hard. On his end, it would mean overcoming the "inertia" (or capacity for wallowing in misery), and overcoming what I see as his insecurity, and all the self respect * self esteem issues I believe him to have--which are factors in how he mistreats you, and it means a lot of behavioral work (ie changes in his behavior) and humility on his end, and bravely looking inward is also work.

Yeah, reading this^^ out might look daunting to you. Imagine how it looks to HIM.

it's easy to see why "starting fresh" has appeal. But it means blaming you for all of it, given his profession, if that's the route he wants.

BTW, how would YOU FEEL if he left the ministry?

I was asking about my own preparation for that...best thing in that moment?
Gonna start a new thread because I'm ready to pull the plug.

[25yearsmlc]

I am caught up in your sitch (as of tonight anyhow).

Seeing a lawyer is simply becoming informed. You need "DO" nothing, but gain information. Don't let the mere concept of it, scare you off.

I saw it as empowering and in a weird way, helped me stay married. Why?

Because I didn't feel as financially threatened by either choice.

I learned I would not starve if he stayed

(but I did keep tabs on his spending. When he began to get out of control and spoke of mortgaging the house to "invest" in Alaska, again, I literally worried about losing our beautiful home. So I filed for a sep ONLY, (not a Div) partly b/c I wasn't ready emotionally to give up but didn't want to see decades of work thrown out the window, so I filed to protect the few assets he had not cashed us out of (which had been done Without my knowledge & which has cost us over the past decade, nearly 7 figures in lost income and real estate. UGh, painful to contemplate and not good for my soul).

AND I certainly would not have been worse off in the long run (>3 years) without him, due to child support and other division of assets.

So I knew I was going to be "okay" financially, either way. That made me feel I was choosing to stay married for the right reasons, ie b/c I wanted it to work.

I did not tell my h about seeing a lawyer until HE threw out the D word and a fairly insane vision he had of how much better off HE would be...

I simply, calmly said, "No, H thats not accurate. I believe, based on what a L told me what would happen is X & Y and then we'd divide the retirement accounts in half and etc etc" and he "threatened to see a lawyer himself"

and I said, with complete sincerity, "H, I hope you do see a L. I'm not lying. You need to know the realities of your choices but you're right not to take my word for it."


SIDENOTE **I am a L by profession but I would tell anyone not to trust their spouse's lawyer OR their spouse when the spouse is a L, for an "objective analysis" of a divorce. For instance, My older brother is a L, and he divorced a GREAT woman (wonderful SIL and I still miss her!)

and my brother said he wanted to handle the details of their divorce himself, but he was authentically unaware of how biased he was in his favor. I think he sincerely believed he'd contributed MUCH MORE than he had. Rationalized frighteningly well and it was Almost delusional and this is MY brother whom I love....


YES my H did see a L and I don't know what to make of his conclusions, but we're still married.



Knowledge is power and that power can be internally calming, not necessarily adversarial knowledge. It's another way of saying you might feel better about being married, by knowing your rights.

[kyrie]

I'm not even done catching up on your thread but just wanted to say that you're so actively working here - I commend you. Truly, I do.

Thanks Trumpet. Hope you're well.
My H keeps saying how insulting it is that I GAL and act like everything is fine. I tried to validate by saying that I know everything isn't 'fine' with us.

What a sad spin he's putting on the fact that you're CHOOSING to TRY and be happy, despite things not being fine...

Makes me wonder if he'd prefer you to be (or at least ACT) miserable? IF so, is it so he won't feel alone, or b/c he feels somehow "less than", in the relationship?

And forgive me if I've overlooked your answer to a question I keep asking, but something tells me there's a real problem IN HIM that he may not admit, (or know he has) with you being the bread winner.

Can you tell is if the "Plan" was always this way or that he'd make more later or did your career simply surprise you with it's pay? I mean, if this WAS the plan, (ie he wouldn't earn much but you would, what changed in HIM or You or both?


I DO feel better when I put the best construction on things, focus on growth and gratitude.

^^ I see this as counting your blessings, having a good attitude and being grateful. Please don't stop this process, as I am convinced it's healthy AND it's God's will. I mean, I'm not expert but this^^ just sounds intuitively and spiritually "Right"...

and his behavior or spin, not so much.

He didn't like it but he pivoted to something else to aim at.
Things have been a little less hostile. Still sniping, still 'testing' me. Dunno.


I still haven't written out that pro/con of stay or go. When I started to, a lot of it sounded more like just excuses to stay.

Interesting. I think it can appear empty at first...but if you do it somewhat often (monthly/weekly??) there might be a day or hour or middle of the night moment of clarity, in which you just know.

A moment in which you say "I CHOOSE TO --- LEAVE -- or TO STAY
but whatever that moment is,

I hope it's teamed up with the words "and be loving & happy with my choice."

Which may have been her point. But none of them are 'deal breaking' excuses... so it seemed like an empty exercise if that's all there is to it. Who knows.

((( )))

Misery loves company, not to be left in the prison of resentment. He doesn't like the "role reversal" regarding who is the main provider. It does frustrate him, but I think he doesn't hold it against me directly. Passive-aggressive, maybe. The plan had always been for him to be a regular pastor in a congregation with him being the main or even sole provider, esp. while the girls were young. But life happens. He has not been a full time pastor for a long time, which is also tremendously frustrating. Financially, we've done what we had to in order to survive.
Yesterday I was resolved (to move forward & be happy, yadda yadda) to separate and possibly divorce. Since then, I'm back to being patient. More later.

[kyrie]

I hear you about that rock bottom (if he can ever reach it... he's managed a LOOONG time just missing it).

Do not underestimate the power of 1) Inertia and or 2) a man's capacity for wallowing in their "stuckness", which is like one step above catastrophe and "the bottom",

By analogy, Some folks are FORCED to move (evicted?) and so, they go...but up till that moment -- they'll stew about how "crowded or cluttered or messy & dirty their room is, and wallow in it or sleep in it and blame others for it, or ignore what everyone else sees.

So to sum up, my point is, don't necessarily think that:

A) he will hit rock bottom, AND B) realize it is the bottom rung;

AND C) that he will GET UP from there.

He may well stay one notch above "bottom" and worse, he may want you there with him.

FIxing this isn't impossible but it's darn hard. On his end, it would mean overcoming the "inertia" (or capacity for wallowing in misery), and overcoming what I see as his insecurity, and all the self respect * self esteem issues I believe him to have--which are factors in how he mistreats you, and it means a lot of behavioral work (ie changes in his behavior) and humility on his end, and bravely looking inward is also work.

Yeah, reading this^^ out might look daunting to you. Imagine how it looks to HIM.

it's easy to see why "starting fresh" has appeal. But it means blaming you for all of it, given his profession, if that's the route he wants.

BTW, how would YOU FEEL if he left the ministry?

I was asking about my own preparation for that...best thing in that moment?
Gonna start a new thread because I'm ready to pull the plug.

Yeah. I hear you about rock bottom *and* wanting me along for the ride. Why not? I pay all the bills - what better way to go. Yeah, daunting....
He was in major MLC mode for a long time. I tried to be as clear as I could that I'd support & love him no matter if he were a ditch digger, a blues drummer (his dream), or whatever. I think he got that. It's the moral implications of being a pastor which scare him and makes him want to flee. That, and the fact that he isn't in a regular congregation/full time position. I totally understand how crappy that probably feels. He knows I understand that much.

[kyrie]

I am caught up in your sitch (as of tonight anyhow).

Seeing a lawyer is simply becoming informed. You need "DO" nothing, but gain information. Don't let the mere concept of it, scare you off.

I saw it as empowering and in a weird way, helped me stay married. Why?

Because I didn't feel as financially threatened by either choice.

I learned I would not starve if he stayed

(but I did keep tabs on his spending. When he began to get out of control and spoke of mortgaging the house to "invest" in Alaska, again, I literally worried about losing our beautiful home. So I filed for a sep ONLY, (not a Div) partly b/c I wasn't ready emotionally to give up but didn't want to see decades of work thrown out the window, so I filed to protect the few assets he had not cashed us out of (which had been done Without my knowledge & which has cost us over the past decade, nearly 7 figures in lost income and real estate. UGh, painful to contemplate and not good for my soul).

AND I certainly would not have been worse off in the long run (>3 years) without him, due to child support and other division of assets.

So I knew I was going to be "okay" financially, either way. That made me feel I was choosing to stay married for the right reasons, ie b/c I wanted it to work.

I did not tell my h about seeing a lawyer until HE threw out the D word and a fairly insane vision he had of how much better off HE would be...

I simply, calmly said, "No, H thats not accurate. I believe, based on what a L told me what would happen is X & Y and then we'd divide the retirement accounts in half and etc etc" and he "threatened to see a lawyer himself"

and I said, with complete sincerity, "H, I hope you do see a L. I'm not lying. You need to know the realities of your choices but you're right not to take my word for it."


SIDENOTE **I am a L by profession but I would tell anyone not to trust their spouse's lawyer OR their spouse when the spouse is a L, for an "objective analysis" of a divorce. For instance, My older brother is a L, and he divorced a GREAT woman (wonderful SIL and I still miss her!)

and my brother said he wanted to handle the details of their divorce himself, but he was authentically unaware of how biased he was in his favor. I think he sincerely believed he'd contributed MUCH MORE than he had. Rationalized frighteningly well and it was Almost delusional and this is MY brother whom I love....


YES my H did see a L and I don't know what to make of his conclusions, but we're still married.



Knowledge is power and that power can be internally calming, not necessarily adversarial knowledge. It's another way of saying you might feel better about being married, by knowing your rights.

I've done some research and questioned a few recently divorced friend, but not spoken to a L directly.
Again, I'm not financially threatened at all. He is though!
His spending is excessive lately too.
The only thing that will help me feel better is knowing I did the holy thing. Not "what I feel is right".

[kyrie]

So last night... I spoke to the Bishop on my way home from work (so I only heard about half of what he said, ugh). But basically he said I shouldn't have asked about his repentance or anything about the affair. I should just focus on forgiving him and not arguing. I explained that *has* been my focus and struggle for many months now, though I know I'm not *there* yet. I also explained that H is the one who keeps wanting to discuss everything, even to the point of coming and waking me up and not letting anything drop or be done. He asked if he could talk to Tony about that part. So I said yes.

Last night w/H, thinking about what the Bishop said, I said that I think it was wrong for me to ask you the things I did last night and I should just stay focused on forgiving. He got mad and said again that he does NOT want my forgiveness and I shouldn't even bother to focus on that and of course I don't understand him at all. UGH

I guess I'll wait & see how his talk w/the Bishop goes.

[kyrie]

So ready to pull the trigger. SO ready.

[kyrie]

Why can't I get a grip on this? I keep spiraling around, going back and forth...and I'm mad at him for the same kind of thing. Mixed signals. Mixed heart. Damn it, I need to be hot or cold.