When the goal is positivity

[JulieH]

Zues

"There is no way he'd be having this conversation if the idea of R wasn't there"

My husband actually said that a few talks ago.

When you said that courts make my husband feel vulnerable and powerless you are absolutely right. Because he expresses it with anger it is hard for me to see that. In the area that we live in, there is no way either of us will financially have a decent quality of life with divorce. We couldn't even do it together.

Husband is well aware of this and has to feel hopeless about our marriage for him to get to this point. I understand this but disagree. I resent that husband gave up but you are right. I will promise not to take action without discussion and warning and reflection.

Zues, why do you doubt that husband is in affair? Most say the signs are there. (Although my closest friend does say anyone else, yes with your husband I'm really not sure. She doesn't know about upcoming trip though)

[Painter]

painter

Husband feels that he did provide for kids. He wanted me to give him itemized lists of what they needed. For example, shoes, car seat, clothes etc. he feels that there is no way that the kids actually need the court mandated percentage because we live with my parents and this makes him very angry.

My parents are very angry because they allowed us to move here for 1 year to save money. After the year he left and now they are forced to support us. They were not prepared to have their lifestyle permanently altered and now they cannot downsize.

(In the area I live in husbands child support payment would not even cover an illegal basement apartment in a decent school district)

His idea of you giving him a list is controlling and unreasonable. Should you give him a list of the food they need?

Your parents do not have a support obligation for his and your children, but he has. It is ignorant of him to think that they should support his children. He needs a reality check, and I guess you gave him one. It's a similar reality check I had to give my H, who thought I had no rights and should move out with my personal belongings and no support.

What happened with the savings?

[ARose]

Grlonfr,

For me, an affair is a dealbreaker. If there was an affair, Divorce would not be hard as for all purposes, we are already divorced just without the freedom to date others. If there was an affair, I am dysfunctional enough to move on and hate him for the rest of my life.

Yes, the cards for me have been lined up right but I struggle because thinking of the cards prevents me from doing what I want to do.

Julie, I love you for saying this, about the affair. I feel the same way if my H has a PA, although that doesn't seem to be the way for most DB'ers. I just know my limits and a PA would be it. But on the other hand, there is the very unsettling feeling that, for me at least, I may never know and I have to make my decisions based on that. I am choosing to believe him and I just know that if/when the fact of a PA comes to light I will walk away and everyone on here will be shaking their heads at my naivety.

[Zues126]

This:

I will promise not to take action without discussion and warning and reflection.

Is a faint echo of what I wrote. It misses the point. It is making a statement, but it isn't recognizing and validating the underlying needs. You don't reference that part of it at all, the part I said was paramount, all you do is disagree and explain you can't do that because a nitpick with a part of the statement about quality of life. You're really fighting this one.

If quality of life will suffer, rewrite what I said in a way that you can agree with. Maybe something like "we can work together to minimize impact on our quality of life". But it involves recognizing what he is saying, showing him that by repeating it back to him in your own words, then honoring what he's saying by using collaborative language ('we', 'our').

I have also talked about using things you're angry at him about as a way to find your own wounds so you can slowly start healing. For example, the way you talk about him having an affair, and how angry you'd be...you seem pretty quick to accept this as 'the way you are' without digging in to see what is off. Oh, sure, everyone would be upset and angry about an affair, but NOT everyone would react the way you are (and the fixation on it). So this is a chance for you to try to explore where this is hurting you more than it hurts others, why you're sensitive there, work with IC to heal there, then whallah, find out that you can actually hear your H when you're not in burning pain all the time, and maybe you can be pleasant to live with too. Or you can just bury it and say "there's no issue here" and blame it on H for doing things that make you angry.

It's very ironic that I'm feeling completely unheard and dismissed when I'm writing pages about how to meet his need to heard. I feel like I'm literally telling you the words that you can say to save your M and you're dismissing the bulk of it, finding areas to nit pick, and refocusing on imaginary problems. The reason I doubt H is in an affair is because how he is telling you he feels matches almost perfectly only on a larger scale. I am over 18 months post BD and 2 months post D and have NO desire to date another woman for similar reasons to what your H said. Not all men cheat, after endless fighting and bickering I could see him valuing peace and quiet more than a fling.

[Zues126]

To everyone else- If Julie's H were here we'd work with him. Yes, there are things he could do differently. No, he is not on top of his game. But the language y'all are talking is the language of war.

Labeling him as controlling.
Blaming him for the situation being escalated.
Getting worked up about the possibility that he is in an affair.

Are you all different usernames for Julie? This is like a lynch mob. Guys, Julie has a problem with not hearing her H and burying her wounds and allowing that to keep her very angry. Your comments being supportive and empathetic are not helping her save her marriage if you're reassuring her she is right and H is a jerk.

JellyB posted something that has been drowned out. Here's what she said again:

If you are both looking towards reconciliation, communication and learning to actually hear each other and connection is the starting place. And then figure out if moving forward is something you want. But that is just my knowledge and experience.

Look I think this is all up for grabs and the fact it's still on table is brilliant. One of you just now needs to man up for the sake of your marriage and kids and get the counselling happening.

Sorry guys, I guess I'm starting to raise my voice. Time for Zues to go back to work on Zues. If what I've said still doesn't get through I'll remind myself this isn't my circus.

[JulieH]

Painter,

I agree with you when it comes to my family and support. That is where a lot of my anger is from. Because logically I an right and he is saying something is white when it is so black that everyone else sees it except for him. It frustrates me to no ends and makes me question his character and our ability to ever see eye to eye. I go over it a lot partially because I am questioning myself. Am I justified to this anger? Is there something I am overlooking that is making me be unfair to husband? Am I wrong? Am I getting played. Big time? I do try to see how does he present it so that I look like the unfair money grubber?

He kept his savings. I saved nothing because I was part time. He claims to have nothing in his bank accounts. This is the big question and why marriage counselor suggested he had gambling problem. It makes no sense unless he is hiding it. Also he took money out of IRA which I don't understand either. It cost him money to do so.

I had asked him to take the money he saved and put it in account for kids which neither of us could touch. Of course he declined. He said that for all these years I was able to save because he spent the majority of money. (Not true at all once I went to part time) he said he is not transparent with his budget because I was not with mine. (Also not true. In past he had all my passwords to accounts and i kept nothing from him financially) I have no problem showing him my budget. At court he listed that his car plus our insurance and gas costs him 1500 per month. Court didn't even bother to look at our expenses.

[JulieH]

Zues, I am very afraid financially. I am afraid to make promises I can't keep when it comes to legal process. I have to look out in the best interests of the children for the rest of their lives. I am at conflict with what will protect me legally and what might work with husband. It would take a huge amount of trust for me to negotiate any type of settlement with husband. I would have to feel that he was looking at the kids best interests and I don't feel like his actions show that. I am very afraid of being taken advantage of because my family was.

There is another part of me that truly truly hopes more then anything that I have vilified him just as he has vilified me, and I believe that what you are saying is to stop villifying him, act with trust and compromise and he will live up to that trust. I did take not of your advice e and Wil reread before I meet with him and discuss any type of legal process. What you are saying is pretty on board with coach advise and ultimately what is necessary for reconciliation. I get it and do appreciate it.

I am starting to hear that he is confused. During our conversation, he said to me that I am highly emotional. That he too can change his mind and speak out of emotions, which is why he told me he wanted to move on and then said he didnt mean that. Deep down I don't think he wants this. I don't either. We just don't know how to separate out our hurt and resentment. We also have trouble commmunicating. Also when he talks to me he often talks with anger and harsh tones, yelling and it puts me on defensive. When I stop to filter out words there might be positive signs but I often get side tracked by the yelling. I get supercritical as well and will focus on negative.

I get caught up between being right and winning the battle vs winning peace.

[JulieH]

Note of your advice (instead of not)

[JulieH]

Julie,

This sounds like a very challenging exchange, but I don't think is necessarily all bad. In fact I kinda think the opposite.

Reconciliation is still on the table, for both of you by the sounds of it.

It is also interesting to me to see that your communication styles are so similar and you are both bringing alot of anger to the table.

I think to you both share a similar naivety about the counselling and reconciliation process being about negotiation of terms and conditions. I think you find that is more likely a mediation process.

If you are both looking towards reconciliation, communication and learning to actually hear each other and connection is the starting place. And then figure out if moving forward is something you want. But that is just my knowledge and experience.

Look I think this is all up for grabs and the fact it's still on table is brilliant. One of you just now needs to man up for the sake of your marriage and kids and get the counselling happening.

If you can get some momentum happening out of this conversation that would be great.

I will be interested in Zues' comments. He has a much better handle on your sitch than I do. But those are my reflections Julie for what they are worth.

My good thoughts and love are with you Julie.

Jellyxxx

I am rereading all of the posts right now and Thank you. When I read "it is interesting to see your communication styles are so similar" I stopped and laughed. You are right!! I am just as dysfunctional with communicating as he is.

When I listened to him and hearing the things he is angry about with me, I kept thinking to myself the anger you feel for me is just way too out of proportion. You keep hanging on to this anger and it is not helping. I am not a horrible villain, just someone who made decisions impulsively and said things to you because I was hurt. You need to let this go. all you are doing is rehashing and coming up with things to be angry at. Etc

I realized it is very similar to me with my anger torwards him.

we keep repeating the same horrible ways of dealing with things over and over. This is no different then when we were together. Just a different topic.
I am getting better at keeping my mouth shut. What I needed to do was let him get off phone or remove myself from phone conversation "this is getting too emotional lets talk when we cool down so no ones feeling get hurt". I never remember to do that in the heat of things.

I never remember to validate in the heat of things either.

[Zues126]

When I listened to him and hearing the things he is angry about with me, I kept thinking to myself the anger you feel for me is just way too out of proportion. You keep hanging on to this anger and it is not helping. I am not a horrible villain, just someone who made decisions impulsively and said things to you because I was hurt. You need to let this go. all you are doing is rehashing and coming up with things to be angry at. Etc

I realized it is very similar to me with my anger torwards him.

Awesome insight Julie. Good job.

I never remember to validate in the heat of things either.

I don't think validation is a technique you should try to remember. I think it is the natural outcome of understanding your partner. If you can 'forget', this just means you haven't really understood his point of view. Because if you did, you wouldn't lose sight of it.

There was a story I never forgot about the dad with 3 kids riding home on a bus one day. The dad was quietly looking out the window. The kids were running up and down the aisles, running into other passengers, causing a ruckus. The dad did nothing to stop them and was just not attentive. As the kids grew more wild, the passengers on the bus started exchanging glances at each other, rolling their eyes, shaking their heads. Finally, one passenger decided he needed to address it. He tried to be polite but it was clear he was irritated. He walked up to the dad and said "excuse me, but if you haven't noticed your children have been behaving a bit inappropriately and it's bothering some of the passengers. Would you mind talking to them about it?" The dad turned slowly and said in a monotone voice, "I'm so sorry, I hadn't noticed. It's been a hard day. We are on our way back from their mother's funeral and I guess none of us really know how to handle it."

I read that over 10 years ago and it stuck with me. I believe it was from the 7 habits of highly effective people, but the point was about paradigm shift. How we see things a certain way, and how that can shift entirely. Once it shifts, it doesn't just shift back.

So once you truly hear what your H is saying, you won't need to remember to validate, any more than the passenger on the bus would need to try to remember to be patient with the dad the remainder of the trip home.

I'm not trying to beat this to death, but rather than trying to remember to act like you're hearing him, keep working on doing what you did above and actually get to know who he is inside and why he is doing what he is doing.

Proud of you J.