This sounds like a very challenging exchange, but I don't think is necessarily all bad. In fact I kinda think the opposite.
Reconciliation is still on the table, for both of you by the sounds of it.
It is also interesting to me to see that your communication styles are so similar and you are both bringing alot of anger to the table.
I think to you both share a similar naivety about the counselling and reconciliation process being about negotiation of terms and conditions. I think you find that is more likely a mediation process.
If you are both looking towards reconciliation, communication and learning to actually hear each other and connection is the starting place. And then figure out if moving forward is something you want. But that is just my knowledge and experience.
Look I think this is all up for grabs and the fact it's still on table is brilliant. One of you just now needs to man up for the sake of your marriage and kids and get the counselling happening.
If you can get some momentum happening out of this conversation that would be great.
I will be interested in Zues' comments. He has a much better handle on your sitch than I do. But those are my reflections Julie for what they are worth.
Julie, I have had the exact same fear with H - that he's pushing me to work full-time so he can dump me without having to pay as much alimony. I brought it up in counseling and he acted shocked. But he's a good actor...
I just watched a really good TED talk. Since we're not supposed to post links, look for Dan Gilbert talking about the Surprising Science of Happiness. It explains to me why the person who breaks out of a M, acts miserable.
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
I have admitted to him multiple times that I should have told him before taking him to court. I did agree with that. He said that I could have said to him "give me the 17% or I will take you to court" and he would have given in. I admitted that would have worked better. But at the time I felt unable to confront him.
I should have said something like I understand how hard it was for you e categorized with all those deadbeats in court when you love the kids so much and do provide and I'm sorry it came to that. I had actually textEd him something like that a while ago at your suggestion.
Zues, do you think going on business trip Valentine's Day weekend is suspicious?
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
I am always suspicious of a walk away spouse...but I also live my life based on the information I have. There were 3 months I didn't know XW was wayward. I operated with the knowledge that she MIGHT be, but I behaved based on what I actually knew. I'll never regret doing that. Look, if he is in an affair and you find out it will cut your heart out regardless of how you find out. I'm more worried about what happens if he isn't but your fears destroy a family. So winding back to your question, I am not in the least bit worried about his trip. I doubt he's in an affair, and even if he is it shouldn't change your behavior.
As for being heard...I think you are agreeing with what he says, but missing the underlying need. When he says "I hate that you took me to court" or "if we're going to do everything by the law then...", while he is citing those specific instances, where is this anger and pain coming from?
I hear him saying "The legal system makes me feel very vulnerable and powerless. This system is set up to make decisions that will impact my life in so many ways, from parenting time, to finances...things that will impact my relationship with my kids, and whether I have any free time or I have to work a 2nd job...and the people making these decisions have formulas and social workers that don't care at all about what I want or need, or what I think is fair. I really hope we can avoid going down this road. Hopefully this means R, but if not, is there any way we can avoid inflicting this system on each other, and instead try to work things out nicely?"
And then I see you wielding the court systems around at him like it's a loaded gun, talking about getting a L right now, then explaining again and again why you had to do it and it's all his fault because if he didn't walk and/or did his part you wouldn't have to do this.
Validation fail.
The correct response would be: "H, I understand what you're saying. The idea of either of our futures laying in the hands of a soulless third party is truly frightening. And being the historically bread winner, I can see how violating it could feel to have someone bang a gavel and give you an unachievable mandate that would destroy the quality of your life, and then hanging jail time over your head if you don't keep up. I can imagine it would feel a bit like you're being enslaved, forced to work in the mines, and if you don't like it, too bad. Oh, and you don't get to see your kids anymore...Those are horrible things, and they do happen to a lot of men, and that is really distasteful. Tell you what. I want you to know I care about you. And whatever happens between us, I always will. Obviously if there is a permanent separation arrangements will have to be made, but I can promise you this...I promise that I am 100% committed to working those arrangements out together...so we EACH have a voice. I promise not to take any further action without warning and discussion, and without spending time to reflect on what you're telling me and understanding your priorities. I am open to involving a counselor again to help us with this if needed, I'd rather involve a counselor that helps preserve a good co-parenting relationship than a lawyer that destroys one. I am committed to doing everything in my power to make sure any outcome would leave you in a spot to where you have a good quality of life, with some free time, and some discretionary income to enjoy it. Finally I am also open to seeing if we can't, through improving our ability to hear and honor each other's voice, see if that relationship can one day extend beyond just co-parenting."
Is there anything I wrote you couldn't say?
See, when he talks about $200, he isn't talking about $200...he's talking about feeling powerless and violated and threatened and scared. Instead of explaining why 4 months this or 17% that...can't you just honor his underlying needs? If you do that, he'll calm down...and he'll be more able to understand your underlying needs, which is you want to know you can feed your kids. Then you calm each other down, come to some MUTUAL agreements...then start talking through IC about other contention areas, rinse/repeat with the same formula, cry a bit because you better understand how you hurt him and why he acted the way he did, he does the same, then you go to Retrouville, fall back in love, get through some tough piecing ups and downs, and in a year's time you're enjoying your first romantic getaway post R, and are in the marriage you always wanted.
Questions?
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Jellyb, we are horrible at communicating with each other. And we both interpret things so differently. Husband actually said he wanted to record or put things in writing because of that.
I agree with you though. I don't want reconciliation to be about negotiations and terms. That's kind of a doomed way to go about this. Reconcilation should not be about having demands met.
It should be about connecting and validating.
Our marriage counselor tried to get us to do "dialogues" it never worked when we were emotionally charged because we just resorted to our old ways.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Your H does the same thing my H does - puts the cart before the horse and turns the blame around. *HE* could have supported his children voluntarily... Why should it be on you to give him an ultimatum, threatening legal action? Is he saying he has to be threatened to do the right thing? Sounds like he's venting his anger over being forced to do something he didn't want to do, and making it your fault that he financially deserted his family.
Now, on your side - if you want him to take the kids when you're sick, you're going to have to encourage him having them when you're well... You may enjoy your time alone more than you think.
When it comes to work - so far, I got a part-time job that gives me a small, but steady income. I also have a couple of other part-time income sources, but they are less predictable. Unfortunately, I have health issues that will make it harder for me to handle full-time employment, at least for now.
M 16 yrs, WH62, P54 3 adult blended kids EA 11/13, BD1 6/14 PA fall 14, BD2 2/15 Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15 Separated 4/16 WH moved OW in 5/16 Divorced 6/15/17
Julie, in the worst case scenario, are you in a good legal position to take care of yourself and your kids?
I sense a fear in you that H is trying to put you at a disadvantage finacially. That is a very valid fear. If you have your cards right, and keep them close to your heart, would you feel less fearful? Should that be the case, then you could do what you need to do to keep that fear at bay, so that you can work on the R with fewer reservations.
It will be good to have that in place before you investigate your doubts about the A. Because, even if you feel mentally prepared, a confirmation of your doubts will send you into a tailspin. And if your fears are true, have you thought about what you are going to do? You say that an A is a dealbreaker for you, but would you be so sure about your feelings once you start the D process rolling?
Just food for thought.
You can call me Dory/ Grl.
As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"
It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
Husband feels that he did provide for kids. He wanted me to give him itemized lists of what they needed. For example, shoes, car seat, clothes etc. he feels that there is no way that the kids actually need the court mandated percentage because we live with my parents and this makes him very angry.
My parents are very angry because they allowed us to move here for 1 year to save money. After the year he left and now they are forced to support us. They were not prepared to have their lifestyle permanently altered and now they cannot downsize.
(In the area I live in husbands child support payment would not even cover an illegal basement apartment in a decent school district)
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
For me, an affair is a dealbreaker. If there was an affair, Divorce would not be hard as for all purposes, we are already divorced just without the freedom to date others. If there was an affair, I am dysfunctional enough to move on and hate him for the rest of my life.
Yes, the cards for me have been lined up right but I struggle because thinking of the cards prevents me from doing what I want to do.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
