Here again after 9 years and struggling 3

[- MB -]

Zues, I know you're a busy guy, but if you get a minute maybe you could read my thread and offer me some advice as well. I would sure appreciate it!

[- MB -]

I learned early on that friends and family have your best insterests at heart, BUT, you really can't listen to what they tell you because they are coming from a place where they just don't want to see you cry and hurt any more. Their advice always seems to be to cut your losses and move on. I get so tired of hearing this so I really try not to talk to any of them about it any more. They just don't understand!

As far as you H coming and going and acting as if nothing is wrong....LET HIM! At least this way you have interactions with him where you can work on things. He gets a chance to see if you're changing. My H and I have NC at all. None. Nadda. Zip. NOTHING!!! How will he ever know if I've changed or not? Your H is still being nice and still wants to be around you and the kids, and still wants to come to the house that feels like his home. I would be so thankful if I could have this kind of chance with my H. Don't waste it. You look your best, GAL, and show him how awesome you are. You can do this. Don't run him off, embrace the opportunity you've been given.

[inpain]

Inpain, if you want to save your marriage you'd better step it up. I get that you're in pain and I'm sorry. It's now up to you. Do you want this forum to be a support forum while you mourn the loss of your marriage? Or do you want it to be a support forum to help you save your marriage?

Hi Zues, thanks for your post. I DO want to save my marriage but I don't know how. I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. I don't get it. I want the support of this forum to save my marriage but I feel like a lot of the advice is about how to move on and not be upset anymore. I feel like things to save my marriage are too vague. Maybe I'm just not understanding the advice, I don't know. I have re read my posts from the beginning, I do it quite often, I just don't see any patterns that you speak of.

I don't understand why it was strange of me to refer back to H's comment about going to a solicitor once bills were paid off. He has asked me on several occasions how much we owe and how long I think it will be until they're paid off. So I told him when they were.

But if you can keep your emotions under control and express them in safe ways, there is a place to be your entire self while still allowing H to be himself without feeling threatened.

OK, I get this, but how, from a man's point of view, do I express my emotions in safe ways to him?

Don't start R talks. You basically asked him to please file a divorce. "H, I want this to be over, the bills you said were in the way have been taken care of, I need the D for legal protection, please file." You are literally pressuring him to file divorce.

I did, you're right, but not because I want legal protection. I will be far worse off in every way once we're divorced, I gain no legal protection from it. I just thought it would get him out of his 'fog', as I said at the end of my post, the reality of losing something.

Validate How can your H possibly feel like you've ever heard what he says when you start in with this? Let me remind you, he left because he felt he spent years of his life trying to find a way to live with you, and went through so much pain he felt destroyed, and that he had to leave for self preservation. He tried to communicate that to you, and your response is 'why can't we work this out'? He TRIED to work it out. He has done everything he could think to do. In a last ditch effort he told you that, thinking maybe, just maybe there was something more YOU could do to bridge the gap. And you dismiss what he's told you and put it back on him to man up and make it work. Not happening.

Then what should I be saying? How do I validate? All he says is he tried for years. When he says that I say I know you did and I'm sorry. What more can I say? This is what I don't understand and feel is vague. How am I supposed to make it easy for him to come home as you say?

IP, this is a 2x4 because I haven't seen you get on a DB road. I haven't seen detachment. I haven't heard about GAL. I see no goals set. You haven't talked about 180s and I have seen no changes of any type as a result. You're not validating what he's telling you. And you're breaking most of the 37 rules.

I don't understand how I can detach when he is round here almost every day acting perfectly fine with me. Am I supposed to ignore him and go out? One of his complaints was I didn't pay attention so now I am - isn't that a 180? I did try to set some goals in one of my posts and asked for opinions if I was on the right lines with them. I didn't get a response to them and so I've just let that drop because I don't know if they're right or not.

Again, I don't know how I'm supposed to validate what he tells me? He doesn't talk about any of it for me to validate anything. I just don't understand any of this stuff.

I thought I was doing pretty good with the 37 rules. I never contact him. I make sure I look nice all the time and am keeping on top of the house. Apart from this bills conversation this weekend I don't see what 37 rules I've broken. I haven't said a word to him about any of this for a long time. He just comes and goes as and when it suits him, without challenge and I act happy when he comes. What more should I be doing? I really don't understand which is probably why you say I'm destroying my M.

Meanwhile I can tell your H loves you, he hasn't filed, he continues to spend time with you and with the family. And YOU are a good person, loving, committed, loyal, passionate, and a great mom. You ask H why he doesn't want to work on the marriage...Inpain, why don't YOU want to work on the marriage? The only catch is you don't get to work on it your way, in which you bury your problems, act out your emotions, and wait for H to make it all better...you'd have to work on the marriage the DB way in which you transcend your emotions, challenge yourself, and hold yourself accountable for bridging the gap between you and WAH.

I DO want to work on the M. What's left of it. This isn't really a M right now is it? I don't want to bury my problems, I want H to come home so that we can work them out. I don't understand why that's wrong. I don't know how hold myself accountable and bridge the gap between us. What do you mean? I've said I've been wrong, I've said sorry, I've stopped 'going on' at him, I've acted happy. I really don't understand what you think I'm doing wrong, or not doing that I should be doing. Please explain.

[inpain]

I learned early on that friends and family have your best insterests at heart, BUT, you really can't listen to what they tell you because they are coming from a place where they just don't want to see you cry and hurt any more. Their advice always seems to be to cut your losses and move on. I get so tired of hearing this so I really try not to talk to any of them about it any more. They just don't understand!

Hi MB, thanks for your post. Yes, this is how I feel, and I don't talk to anyone in real life about it much anymore, just my Mum occasionally when I really can't take any more. But I feel like I need to talk about it.

As far as you H coming and going and acting as if nothing is wrong....LET HIM! At least this way you have interactions with him where you can work on things. He gets a chance to see if you're changing. My H and I have NC at all. None. Nadda. Zip. NOTHING!!! How will he ever know if I've changed or not? Your H is still being nice and still wants to be around you and the kids, and still wants to come to the house that feels like his home. I would be so thankful if I could have this kind of chance with my H. Don't waste it. You look your best, GAL, and show him how awesome you are. You can do this. Don't run him off, embrace the opportunity you've been given.

I'm sorry you don't have this chance with your H MB. It's not that I don't appreciate the chance, I do, and I always look my best, the kids and I are doing lots of fun things without him - this is my GAL. I feel I'm doing these things, it just doesn't have any effect.

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain

It's not easy becuse you are still attached to the old H. Your H is not that guy right now. Selfish and narcicistic behaviour takes over. He even told you he didn't realize how him being around you all the time affects you. Don't think he cares...He is just pleasing himself.

I know it always sounds like everyone is telling you to move on. We are. But we are not telling you to give up on him or the marriage. It's part of your journey to let him go. He has to feel the consequences of his choice. Right now it's all good.
He sees you and the kids as he wishes. Makes him feel good. You crying only shows him he still has you and he's in control. You need to disconnect in order for him to want to connect. If he doesn't well you at least will be disconnected and if you close the door it will be your choice and it will be easier.

You need to set your boundaries, restrict him from just coming by. Set up a schedual that works best for you and the kids.
You need to become selfish and do what's best for your kids and you. Too bad for him. He left.

I know you can do it. I see your strength.

Also telling him that he can go ahead with the divorce is wrong. Don't give him the idea that it's ok to divorce and you agree. Let him do that on his own. If he brings it up reply it's his divorce and you never wanted it. If he feels you moving on it will affect him. It may or may not get him out of his fog. But it's something you can't pretend to do. It must be you really moving on and GAL.

I think about your sitch a lot. Take control of your life. It [censored] that it's happening, none of us wanted it. I won't let W run my emotions any more. It's her loss and if she wants back she will have to prove it. I just want to be stronger and at a place where I decide what's best for me. I so want you to have that too.

Take care of those kids. GAL and let H feel the consequences. He's cake eating and enjoying it.

Irish

[Zues126]

Thanks for the reply IP.

I feel like a lot of the advice is about how to move on and not be upset anymore...

...This isn't really a M right now is it? I don't want to bury my problems, I want H to come home so that we can work them out. I don't understand why that's wrong.

I think this is where we all start. "I want my marriage to work." It sounds like such a noble statement. And in many ways it is. You should want your marriage to work, you should want to get through the 'for worse', you should want to remain true to your vows. Where it becomes less noble is when it interferes with other things in life you should value.

You should respect the fact that H is his own person. You don't get to control him. It takes 2 people to remain in a marriage. Your desire to remain married is noble as long as it inspires you to behave the way a married woman ought to behave. It becomes unhealthy when your desire to remain married starts leading you to focus on finding ways to control H's behavior. Accepting that he is his own person and gets to make his own choices is validating. As long as you feel the only acceptable outcome is him making the choices you want him to make you deny him as a person. If he is ever in a marriage with you again it will have to be because HE chooses it, not because you choose it for him and will him to obey.

You should also appreciate and enjoy the life that God has given you. This is quite a loss, I'm not pretending otherwise...but your appreciation for life simply cannot be conditional. My most important breakthrough was realizing that if I looked at the sky and told God that despite having my health, happy and healthy children, a good job, good friends, many gifts, and the miracle of life...if I still looked up at the sky and told him it wasn't enough, I couldn't possibly be content without the marriage I wanted when I wanted it...well, that would be so entitled that Him giving me a woman wouldn't change anything anyway.

I just thought it would get him out of his 'fog', as I said at the end of my post, the reality of losing something.

This is an example of controlling behavior. It's one thing to set boundaries so you aren't being controlled by him, abused, taken advantage of, etc. But trying to orchestrate consequences in his life to change his behavior is controlling.

from a man's point of view, do I express my emotions in safe ways to him?

This will be hard for you, but right now you don't. He isn't interested in your emotions. He doesn't want to hear them. So you can either spew at him anyway and give him more reasons to distance himself, or you can bite your tongue for a bit and avoid driving him away further. I know you have emotional needs and as a husband he isn't meeting them. I get it. He has told you that he doesn't want to be your husband.

If this changes in the future then you biting your tongue won't be the model of how the relationship would work. If the time comes when he is interested in reinvesting in a marriage with you then you'd get professional help to find ways to express your voice in constructive ways. That day may never come, and it isn't today. So if you want to scream, scream on the forum, not to him.

I don't understand how I can detach when he is round here almost every day acting perfectly fine with me.

Detaching doesn't have much to do with him. It has to do with you. For you I think two things will help.

First is, as we've said, starting to accept your H's decisions. The more you can let him be the less of your energy will be spent on him.

Second, GAL really is crucial to detachment. The point of it isn't to distract yourself. It is to meet your emotional needs elsewhere. Look- suppose you were in a desert, and you had an empty water bottle. You could keep trying to drink from the empty water bottle, but that doesn't do anything. It would just be frustrating because there is no water there. BUT- if you could find another source of water...maybe there is a juicy cactus you could break open with a rock...you could get the water you needed. Suddenly the appeal of an empty water bottle would fade. Similarly, if you reconnect with friends you haven't seen for a while, get involved in your church and help others, whatever, you will find other ways in meeting your emotional needs of being heard, understood, known, appreciated, respected, whatever. As you meet those needs your H will no longer look like the sole provider of everything you want and need in your life. He will start to look like a man. A man that you would like a M with...but not unconditionally with continuous affairs. A man that you can accept makes his own decisions and one you could live without if he so chooses. But then you'd be in a healthy spot, so he'd have more reason to believe that a M with you could work out.

I feel like things to save my marriage are too vague.

So as we've said, it's too vague because there is no magic bullet that will get someone else to recommit to a marriage. There is no love potion. My specific advice would be to:

-Spend 15 minutes a day reflecting on the things God has given you that you can be appreciative for. Celebrate what you have. Daily. Unconditionally.

-Pray for strength to let go of any grip you have over WAH. Before every encounter pray for the strength to overcome your own pain and be able to let him go on his own journey without influence from you. This would also be a 180. I would guess that H's reasons for leaving is that he felt controlled and criticized, that if he didn't do or live the way you wanted he would be in trouble, and maybe even you denied his needs as a way to manipulate him into being the H you wanted. I don't know about that, I could be wrong. You haven't said much about your past behavior or contributions in the breakdown of the M so I have no clue, I'm just guessing based on how you talk about your H now. So letting him go and not condemning him would be a big step towards a 180, and also ties in with validating the feelings he's expressed about how he can't live like that anymore.

-Work on yourself. There is more to the DB journey, but this would at least avoid driving him away further or doing more damage to a hurt marriage. From here I'd like to hear you write out much more about the dynamics in the marriage, where your behavior was unhealthy, why you acted that way (what was at the root of it), and some things you can do to grow as a person so those same things wouldn't happen again. I'm 18 months post BD and still ask myself every day "If I was in my M again could I handle myself better?" I still am not confident of that, so I keep trying to find ways to understand why I was so needy or reactive in my M, how I can mend myself, how I can meet my needs elsewhere to reduce pressure on my partner, why I feel the need to cling to my idea on how love and relationships work. I have read many R books, have really challenged myself, and I'm still scared that I don't have the tools to make an R work. Your plan seems to be that H needs to come back and do things the way you need him to do them so your M works. That's not really stepping up on your end.

Basically as you write more about yourself we will have more specific advise. As long as you're writing about H all we can say is 'let him go on his journey'.

In the meantime DO keep posting, and know there isn't a limit to how much pain you can dump here or how many times you can rant to us to avoid screaming at him. We get it. All of us have felt the loss. We truly do get it. I just want you to use us as your outlet so you don't have to keep trying to drink from an empty water bottle. For me I post a lot because the forums ARE my GAL, they help me meet my emotional needs so I don't hurt as much from the loss. I just want to see you in less pain, but unlike family and friends I don't think the answer is outside of you.

[inpain]

Hi Irish

Thanks for posting. I did tell him that I don't want a D in the conversation we had, I didn't tell him it was OK to go do it. I just thought that telling him that his stated obstacle was out of the way might 'scare' him into realising that his choice is becoming real and that that might make him come home.

I don't know how I can disconnect with things how they are at the moment. I'm so confused by all the different advice and I don't know which way to turn. I feel like setting up a schedule will just push him further away and/or make him angry. Surely I don't want to be making him angry either? I don't know. I really don't know what I'm supposed to be doing here. When I was on these boards 9 years ago people seemed to celebrate their 'baby steps' and it doesn't seem that way anymore. I'm so confused. We are living a few doors away from each other, he hasn't been to a solicitor, he doesn't talk about any of it and comes and goes when he pleases. When he's here he's helpful and acts like nothing's wrong. I really don't see what my next step is. How am I supposed to distance myself when he is so ever present?

[ciluzen]

Zues says:

Work on yourself. There is more to the DB journey, but this would at least avoid driving him away further or doing more damage to a hurt marriage. From here I'd like to hear you write out much more about the dynamics in the marriage, where your behavior was unhealthy, why you acted that way (what was at the root of it), and some things you can do to grow as a person so those same things wouldn't happen again. I'm 18 months post BD and still ask myself every day "If I was in my M again could I handle myself better?" I still am not confident of that, so I keep trying to find ways to understand why I was so needy or reactive in my M, how I can mend myself, how I can meet my needs elsewhere to reduce pressure on my partner, why I feel the need to cling to my idea on how love and relationships work. I have read many R books, have really challenged myself, and I'm still scared that I don't have the tools to make an R work. Your plan seems to be that H needs to come back and do things the way you need him to do them so your M works. That's not really stepping up on your end.

Inpain,

As I've said before, we are so similar...our H's are very similar. What Zues is telling you is very, very true. We cannot control this situation. We have to let go, or we will be consumed by anger, despair and fear. We will cease to function in a mentally healthy way. I know this because I let it happen...again. And I sort of thought I was strong enough to handle it.

At this point I've had my H file after what I thought were some good interactions. As much as I tried not to, I grew hopeful and had those lovely expectations of him changing his mind. After receiving my papers, I hit a lower low than ever before. I plummeted. And, because he still cares, he felt the need to call me so I begged and pleaded, defended and explained. Not as strong as I thought, eh?

I know what to do as far as DBing, but desperation made me weak. I even knew it would firm his stance, but I did it anyway.

Now I have no choice...I have to go dark. Its all I have left.

I really hope you can try to let go...don't overthink his every move or believe that his hanging around is a sign of changing his mind. Its the comfort of the familiar. My H told me through tears a few days after filing that he almost invited me to dinner (because he was hungry and lonely and tired). Comfort in the familiar. We are old habits...and they do care for us. They just don't believe we can change from the things that drove them to leave.

Let him go, IP. Its probably the only hope.

[inpain]

I just thought it would get him out of his 'fog', as I said at the end of my post, the reality of losing something.

This is an example of controlling behavior. It's one thing to set boundaries so you aren't being controlled by him, abused, taken advantage of, etc. But trying to orchestrate consequences in his life to change his behavior is controlling.

Hi Zues, thank you for your reply. For some reason it didn't show up, it wasn't there when I replied to Irish. I can see what you mean about this ^^ being controlling. I didn't see it as trying to control him, I saw it as trying to make something happen to alter this situation I find myself in. I can't cope with it the way it is. I'm still hurting just as much as day one and I have friends and family telling me to D him and I just feel like I'm running out of time. The longer we are separated the harder things would be if he did want to R. I guess I was trying to hurry things along. It has been 84 days today since he left. I don't feel any different. In fact, I think I feel more devastated now than I did on day 1.

This will be hard for you, but right now you don't. He isn't interested in your emotions. He doesn't want to hear them. So you can either spew at him anyway and give him more reasons to distance himself, or you can bite your tongue for a bit and avoid driving him away further. I know you have emotional needs and as a husband he isn't meeting them. I get it. He has told you that he doesn't want to be your husband.

If this changes in the future then you biting your tongue won't be the model of how the relationship would work. If the time comes when he is interested in reinvesting in a marriage with you then you'd get professional help to find ways to express your voice in constructive ways. That day may never come, and it isn't today. So if you want to scream, scream on the forum, not to him.

OK, I understand what you have put here, thank you. I feel like I get 'told off' here though if I vent. It seems like I have to be all happy GAL even on here, if not more so than in real life.

Detaching doesn't have much to do with him. It has to do with you. For you I think two things will help.

First is, as we've said, starting to accept your H's decisions. The more you can let him be the less of your energy will be spent on him.

OK, I kind of see what you mean here but how do I put this into practice? I'm acting happy when he comes round. I don't talk to him unless he starts a conversation (except the finance conversation we had on Friday). Yet he is chatty and starts conversations and seems to think I'm OK with it. I'm not. It is killing me. Does this mean I should go out every time he comes?

Second, GAL really is crucial to detachment. The point of it isn't to distract yourself. It is to meet your emotional needs elsewhere. Look- suppose you were in a desert, and you had an empty water bottle. You could keep trying to drink from the empty water bottle, but that doesn't do anything. It would just be frustrating because there is no water there. BUT- if you could find another source of water...maybe there is a juicy cactus you could break open with a rock...you could get the water you needed. Suddenly the appeal of an empty water bottle would fade. Similarly, if you reconnect with friends you haven't seen for a while, get involved in your church and help others, whatever, you will find other ways in meeting your emotional needs of being heard, understood, known, appreciated, respected, whatever. As you meet those needs your H will no longer look like the sole provider of everything you want and need in your life. He will start to look like a man. A man that you would like a M with...but not unconditionally with continuous affairs. A man that you can accept makes his own decisions and one you could live without if he so chooses. But then you'd be in a healthy spot, so he'd have more reason to believe that a M with you could work out.

I feel that I get the emotional needs you speak of met at work and from my family. It is the actual emotional need of being in love, feeling safe and looked after, being held, that I am not getting met. I cannot get those things anywhere else than my H. This is where I'm struggling. When I'm doing my GAL activities, which mostly involve my children, I am genuinely happy doing them. There is just this huge void where his love used to be.

Your plan seems to be that H needs to come back and do things the way you need him to do them so your M works. That's not really stepping up on your end.

I don't want him to do things the way I need him to if he came back. It's just that I don't see how I can step up and be the best wife I can if he doesn't come back. Without him I'm not a wife, I'm a Mum, a single Mum.

I will do as you say and post about the M breakdown in a separate thread so it stands out. Thanks Zues.

[inpain]

Inpain,

As I've said before, we are so similar...our H's are very similar. What Zues is telling you is very, very true. We cannot control this situation. We have to let go, or we will be consumed by anger, despair and fear. We will cease to function in a mentally healthy way. I know this because I let it happen...again. And I sort of thought I was strong enough to handle it.

Hi Ciluzen, it's great to hear from you. I know what you are saying is true, I can feel myself slipping into some terrible despair too.

At this point I've had my H file after what I thought were some good interactions. As much as I tried not to, I grew hopeful and had those lovely expectations of him changing his mind. After receiving my papers, I hit a lower low than ever before. I plummeted. And, because he still cares, he felt the need to call me so I begged and pleaded, defended and explained. Not as strong as I thought, eh?

Oh Ciluzen, I'm so, so sorry. That is awful. It is so hard to go dark too, I know. I just wish I could close my eyes, wake up and it all have been a bad dream.

Let him go, IP. Its probably the only hope.

This last line has me sobbing buckets and buckets of tears. I can't do it. I love him so much and I can't stand all of these empty minutes that are turning into empty days and months.