Reading your last post is like reading what is up in my life too. Kind of crazy the way this people behave and the disregard they have for their own family.
But then thinking a little deeper I see that they don't have the same thinking as we do. I am not 100% sure if I respect the fact that they are going through MLC or if I understand they just don't have the same values we hold.
Your wife is miserable and cares a great amount of guilt and grief. Is this making her depression worse and she does not have a way out? Is this the reason she is around you and keep you hanging in there?
If she decided to leave and have her own life, what is this that keeps her attached to you? And is this attachment a feeling she can rescue or is this the condensed fog she is in and feel very alone and insecure?
There are infinite questions and we may never answer any of them. There are lots of hurtful things, lots of regrets and what ifs, lots of why, why, why...
You know well my story and you know I struggle with detachment. Lately, I have been questioning myself and the answer that always comes to mind is that my values regarding family are very strong, even more then I ever tough it would be.
Also lately, I have been feeling a strong desire to respect myself as a human being that deserves respect. Your life is similar to mine and I can see the struggle of resolving your life as an individual or father.
The individual needs affection, love, sex, needs to feel he gives and he gets, protects and feel protected, share life in deep meanings of compromise and gratitude.
The father, a family man will forget himself when his feet is hurting and he needs a rest, when he is asleep and needs to pick up someone or be at a bedside taking care after the little one. It's the one that will let go on his needs and feel good about the warm hug. The father is the one that will let his separated wife to come and go and share the family life just because he wants to save his kids from pain.
The difference between the two are moral values defined by what we are born wired and what we developed during years in this life mixed up with the love we have for the ones we put in this world.
Is this the wrong thing to be caring and protect the ones you love the most from more pain then what was already inflicted in them? I think not.
Is that wrong to forget the man and all his needs so he can continue be the loving person he can be... the loving father he was, is and will be? I think that yes.
IMHO, we can be good parents and close our eyes and try to protect our kids holding our own feelings so that not one beside us will be hurt. But I think that it just go as far and we too need to be protected.
So, how to gain balance in the middle of a battle? I guess we need to access what is bad, enough and good.
The bad in our situation would be to ignore it all, be selfish and just put an end on it all. Like saying to your wife that she needs to go fly a kite and to disappear from your house. Never put a foot in there.
The good would be if she was making sense of her life, had a desire to love her family over all her issues, work hard to change what she dislikes but still be there.
And then there is the enough one... that in my opinion is the one we need to embrace. It comes with boundaries, sometimes hard to address but necessary for the man. The limitations to where, how, when gives the man a sense of control in his life, but also gives the father a sense of peace because he is still not cutting it drastically.
With enough, you can respect yourself and your space, and you can give the ones you love the part they deserve.
I know from my own heart that I really struggle in being a woman and a mother. But I also know that at some point in time I need to balance both of them. And it is only accessing the situation to see what enough should look like.
This people left us, they sure have their reasons. But the bottom line is that they left us and the family. And in their selfish way they act like they did never leave.
I am getting to the conclusion that we will need to built a very solid wall and come down with the rules we can live with, we can accommodate the respect for the woman/men, and we can save our kids from more pain and traumas.
RD, I think for both of us, it is time to establish what we can live with. Maybe it is time to let our spouses know that we can be caring, loving, but we are also people that deserve better.
Like many times someone said it to me, including you..."Loving distance", it comes to my mind that it is the right medicine for all of us, for all the ones involved.
I have been creating some distance from my H for quite awhile, it is not perfect, but he does not go around my house anymore, he is limited to living room, kitchen and family room. My locks are changed and my garage code is different now. I do not answer the majority of his texts anymore. Slowly but surely, he is getting what he asked for. He is out, so mind as well be gone.
It's very hard to let go on someone we care for, someone we would like closer, but at some moment in time, we will need to say enough and draw some lines. Maybe that's when we will feel a little more at peace.
RD, I hope you can find that balance you need. I hope you will be able to determined what is good for your kids and does not torture you. I hope you will be the father but also know that you are a man that deserves to be feeling good about yourself.
If the man is not cared for, then this man will become a poor father and an unloving friend.
Maybe it is time to lay your life on a piece of paper and see where you can change a bit and make room for your own peace of mind.
Your wife is still part of the family she left behind, as well as my XH does the same. The only reason they do what they do is because we allow it to happen. I think it is time for us to let them live whatever is that they were looking for. Maybe, it is actually the one thing that will make them really think of what their choices are and the consequences of those choices.
You know I care for you, I admire your love and strength for your family. That if we had a closer geographical situation, we would be probably be dating by now. So you know that I wish the best for you, and for this reason I would like that you start thinking how you will enforce your boundaries and yet save your kids from some pain.
I know you can do it. It is hard but not impossible.
Hi Vanillia. I think I still hold onto the hope of reconciliation while knowing it can never happen regardless of Ws thought or actions on the matter. This keeps the contact.
I have been thinking a great deal about your post and I have revisited some of your threads and my notes. You stand and you stand for M. You stand for WW and rebuilding your M. It looks 'stuck' to me, WW has never had to face the loss of RD as her H.
WW makes a mild request or simple observation and RD responds. Pity is a poor base for an M. I think RD sees WW in pain, sad, depressed and seeks to protect her. RD I believe this keeps you stuck. It's guilt that WW has a bad sitch and poor health.
I see guilt RD, over and over. That if you detach then WW will suffer. I think this is keep you and WW stuck in this suspended state.
The irony is this is making the pain shallower but everlasting.
I never contact W , I will answer most of her calls and respond to texts but that's it. I don't pursue ( that I'm aware of ). Maybe you could look at an interaction for me and tell me if I am pursing without realising it
Last night W came to stay for the night and I was out dropping S20 to the pictures with some of his friends.
WW comes and goes as she pleases, it is as if she is playing a role as a wife. As if she is an actress playing a role. If you have ever seen the film 'The Trueman Show' with Jim Carey? The role isn't real.
When I got home W was in the boys shower and when she finished she came into the front room and showed me a picture of her father and my BIL BIL has not aged well and put on quite a bit of weight. I commented and then W went into tell me SIL and BIL are still having problems ( on going for 10 years) Again I commented without any real opinion.
That's ok RD.
W then asked me how she could tell which brake pads were worn in her car as the warning light was on. I offered to look today and then she said she was going to order the pads. Again I offered to fit them when she got them.
RD, WW mentions an issue and you oblique. I think the better answer is "I am sure you can sort it WW. Whilst thinking OM can do that.
I can see how this might be seen as pursuing but I would offer to do this for anyone and have done so for neighbours or guys I work with.
That's rationalising.
W came into my bedroom this morning (she knocked) and made some conversation and left with D11 to get shopping I got dressed and left for the day. W leaves at 5pm to collect OW. I will return after.
You are having difficulty referring to your W as a WW.
W called a while ago and asked if I had left the town as she needed something collected from Post office and she had no photo ID ( Parcel was delivered to my house but no one answered door ) I had left the town so said so and said sorry.
Firstly why is WW using your home as a postal address? Time things were delivered to her home or OM. Why apologise?
Vanillia , am I pursuing?
Absolutely you are.
I am always up beat when talking to W , dressed well because I almost always do anyway at this stage and W will comment on how well I look or how nice my hair is. She praises me for how Im a good dad and kids are lucky to have me.
Crumbs.
I never mention her life and even when she leaves herself open for truth darts I don't fire them.
so you give her an easy ride? There are absolutely no boundaries here RD. Grateful for any nice crumbs WW delivers.
My take on my sitch is W regrets her choices ( she has apologised and admitted she was wrong for her actions ) BUT she is also accepting of her life now and will continue with it. I believe she thinks I've moved on and no longer wish to have an R with her so DB wise , I've done a decent job.
RD, yes and no. Until WW feels that you have detached and senses she is no longer allowed cake then it's unlikely to change.
I suppose we all reach a point where we have to move forward and while I'm not there on the inside and think W is She has OM ( whatever that maybe be) and her new life. It may not be great but it's what she has She is still very friendly to me and obviously cares for me but the desire to be M to me is gone.
Firstly that's mind reading and secondlyrics WW is stilling playing at being M to RD. Sweetheart she hasn't yet had to think about the loss of her M. I think it's good old fashion guilt on your part.
I would appreciate your comments because I am down at the moment and it's my own thoughts that have me there. Bruv, I love you very dearly. I would very much want your M to repair and I do believe until you detach and set boundaries then it won't.
Could I have done more ?
RD you can choose to do LESS. This would be a 180 for you. WW should not live in your home, you don't live in hers. You repair her car and she drives OM around in it.
I truly know it's too late but I still have doubts as to if I could have acted differently
No RD, now is the time. The time is now.
Thanks and take care. Rd. xx
I am preparing a post on guilt and am still marinating still.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Hmm, I think V makes some interesting points and I don't disagree with her perspective. I also think there is a bit of a father/daughter dynamic here. Your W talks to you about things I talk to my Dad about - what shall I do about car troubles, cash etc and my Dad (bless him) helps out.
I can see merit in mixing things up a little there and I can also see merit in your house being your house - ie: your W doesn't get to come and go as "Wednesday Mum" or whatever. My guess is your main concern will be the kids as you'll feel they benefit from your W being more available to them. However, would it be better for your W to have a reasonable place of her own and be able to see the kids in her own place?
I'd also love to see you doing a social/support activity just for RD....but I've been harping on about that one for ever....but only because I care xx
JMHO and hopefully helpful to you lovely RD xx
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
V is such a smart pickle. I was actually waiting her post for you because I feel I am kind of stuck too.
I also do all this things. Kind of try to be a little more on track with boundaries and then I give up on them since my biggest desire is that XH will see me, my changes and maybe, just maybe he will turn his head to my side.
I know it is hard to face reality (at least for me it is very hard) but I struggle to let go. To just take that person from my life. Wake up every day and be independent, disconnected.
I am also quite sure it is a process and we will eventually get to that point were we no longer need the connection.
For me, the "family" is something still stuck in my head and I have a great pain every time I think my is a broken one. I keep wondering that if XH could at least think about us as a family and review what he is doing, that maybe we could rescue what was lost.
Well, I have been learning through trial that it is not helping to just hang in there. We do this things about not calling, never start contact, never ask for anything, be out of their way, let them live their lives. But in the same time we are there, just waiting for them to come back.
And the worse, is that they know exactly what we want. I know it is not a health way to think about your partner, and that they seem like making sense for themselves, but the truth is that they didn't move forward besides living the M, the family, the house, the responsibilities. They struggle to get their life in a good and right direction. What is obvious that they are in confusion mode for quite a while.
The reason I wrote in my thread that I am dealing a lot with my "Fear fact" is exactly because of what V mention in her answer. I let the fear of losing a family to take over the good work I should be doing in detaching further from XH.
I see the same happening to you lovely. I do not think it is a problem with you, I actually think that it is admirable. You are a family man and have strong values related to it.
Maybe it would help to review your goals, get a piece of paper and set some strategies. Set some goals to what to do next and what you want to accomplish with that move.
This way you may be helping yourself to detach further and feel a little better. V and Sotto are totally right about too much contact, too much freedom to someone that left you and her family.
Then you think about the kids and that's were I struggle too. My kids are older and sometimes they just open the door and invite XH in. It gets awkward to ask him to leave or wait outside.
Maybe you could talk to the kids. Like a family meeting to find out what is their opinion about this. You can explain your side, say that you care deeply for your WW, but that in the same time you need some space to get your life together as it is right now.
Our kids are struggling too, but you may be surprised that they too need some space and time to adjust to their new reality. You may be surprise how much clear they are about boundaries. I guess it happen because they already deal with a number of boundaries determined by us parents, so this is still a normal way of life for them. What for us is a new thing after so many years being the boss of our own lives.
RD, it is painful no matter what we do. If we run away then it will hurt because we will think we could do more. If we stay close, then it hurt because it is so close and yet so far.
I am learning a great deal of "emotional balance". I say I am learning because I did not have it before. I let my emotions to play big time in different directions before.
Now, I need to think about what is best for me, for my kids, and balance all that with the DB rules in a hope to save a family we care so dearly.
And it is true. This balance comes with us having an adult life. It is quite wonderful to do things with the kids and it is a great GAL. But it needs to be balance with the RD "man" life too. At first it feels like wrong, then it feels empty, then it start shaping up with new subjects, new stuff to do. Then it slowly makes us a little happier to meet with friends, talk about adult stuff.
It's a slow process and it will only happen if you take the first step forward. Once you do, you will find out that there is a lot more of RD to be discovered, there is a lot more of RD to be proud, loved, encouraged that life is indeed a good thing.
This is just my opinion and I say this sitting in the same hot stool. I have been dealing with the same and I think that V, Sotto, Job and others have a very good advice on detachment.
Let us know what is your take on this, I am very interested in your opinion too since it is directly related to my sitch as well.
By the way, S21 and I were picking up a pizza at "Pizza Hut" and we met an Irish young man from Dublin. Loved his accent. He explained that most Irish have a high pitch accent and his is a little different because it is quite low pitch. He tough I was from Russia or Ukraine by my accent. It was lovely.
RD, I care deeply for you and I want to see you happy. Love, Anjo
Hi all. Thanks so much for the advice Just a few thoughts , I'm sure I don't want W back. It's not easy to type that because I loved this lady will all my heart and never thought past US The decision was a bit easier because I do appreciate that I'm not a bad guy. I'm far from perfect , very far in fact but I am one of the good guys like many of the gentlemen on here. I didn't warrant this , W has said so and I know it to be true
I'm not praising myself unduly , I've become a single dad with four kids and a full time job. It's very tough and sometimes it would be great to have someone to share the hard times with but life hasn't worked out that way
The person I believed W to be is gone or was never there , either way she's gone now. I've accepted this and know that I expect people to treat me how I treat them. W did not do this and became a person I would never have been with had I met them before
The reality now is W is no longer W but someone I thought I knew but obviously didn't Accepting this makes moving on much easier Like us all , I deserve someone that wants to be with me and is prepared to work at an R especially when things don't go well.
In my sitch , myself and the kids live in the family home which 50% of belongs to W Legally I cannot stop her coming and going as she pleases and we do have a schedule of sorts. My sons and one of my daughters will not go to Ws flat because of OM. not because he is there when they are but because he is there at other times. My sons would support my asking W to refrain from coming into home but S17 misses her terribly and while he may support me I struggle with asking him to do so. My daughters would also support me but I won't ask that of them as while W left them , I feel it's better W is in their lives as much as possible
I see W once a week when she stays on a Friday night and we do chat. She will call and text most days and I wouldn't feel comfortable stopping that as she appears to be a broken person struggling with her life. I dont get involved in her life and follow DB but for me and not for reconciliation. I think Vanillia is right and some of what I do is pursuing but ( and I hope I'm not fooling myself ) it isn't pursuing in the classic sense. I could list the things I do and say that make it clear to W that the road home is far from smooth and impassable so even if W sees the pursuing as that then it's more than countered by the other side
Eg. W asked what I was doing for S20s , 21st birthday and I made it very clear the family have something planned and she was not part of it. I could give lots of examples of this but I'm comfortable that I make my point almost daily.
This used to be because of my Fear Factor of jumping before I'm pushed ( much like I see Pink doing ) but now it's because I know it couldn't work going forward due to many things but mainly my insecurities I don't think I could ever trust anyone fully again
With the car brake pads , while I offered to fit them that's as far as its gone and I haven't mentioned it again , nor will I until W brings it up.
I often point out to others that while we all feel our sitch is unique , it's not , yes W leaving the kids isn't that common , it does happen It's taken me almost a year and a half to accept what happened but I have now and I feel much more able to deal with it This board, the DB principles and the amazing friends I have made made the journey a million times easier to deal with and I thank you all from the bottom of my heart
Going forward I don't see me changing the dynamic because while W is gone , I still have 10 years + of co parenting to deal with and I will help W were I can If I could have a clean break , I would but that's not possible. I do think I'm gay freind zoned and that's ok because I dont want more
W is here now and she is very sick , she has ulcers in her mouth , her bald spot is bigger than before and she does not seem to be even covering it up. I do fee sorry for her. I look forward to Vanillas guilt thread because I think there is a lot of guilt going on with W I went through my own share of guilt but IC showed me I was not to blame.( completely ).
Sorry for the rambling post but I have been thinking hard about vanillias post to me and her words really hit home. My M is over and has been since BD , I only realised recently. Is another M with W possible , no My boundaries with W are firm in regard to OM and she never mentions him or anything to do with him Her life outside the family is kept separate from myself and the kids and the last time she even mentioned him in passing I asked her to leave that was almost 9 months ago
Vanillia is rift that W does act like she is still M to me and even our neighbours haven't been told she's gone. The next step will be selling the family home and then we can see what that brings
You need only state your boundary to WW on OM once. That is all you need unless WW wants to R then you can reinforce it RD. After that it's your actions.
Saying this over and over weakens you.
Your actions contradict your statements in this. You allow WW to phone and text RD daily and yet keep saying the road home is far from smooth?
This is passive pursuit RD. WW HAS NO LACK OF YOU.
Just my 2c
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Good old fashioned guilt because WW is 'suffering'.
Her choice.
Guilt is to let us know when we’ve done something wrong, to help us develop a better sense of our behavior and how it affects ourselves and others. It prompts us to re-examine our behavior so that we don’t end up making the same mistake twice. Guilt can be appropriate and motivate us to change.
It isn't always useful as a primary response and generally its mature when our behavior has been offensive or hurtful to others or ourselves.
The problem arises RD because your behavior isn’t something that needs reexamining over and over nor do you need to change.
You have already made amends and changes.
If your guilt is for a specific and rational purpose and it is healthy guilt then it encourages you to take action. I think this looping is self-punishment, weighingredients you down and getting you stuck from move forward.
This says what I want to say more eloquently than I can put it:
Healthy guilt is telling us we need to do something different in order to repair relationships important to us (or our own self-esteem). (Unhealthy guilt’s purpose, on the other hand, is only to make us feel badly for little legitimate reason.) While sometimes we already know the lesson guilt is trying to teach us, it will return time and time again until we’ve actually learned the lesson fully. It can be frustrating, but it seems to be the way guilt works for most people. The sooner we “learn the lesson” – e.g., make amends, work to not engage in the same hurtful behavior in the future, etc. – the sooner the guilt will disappear. If successful, it will never return for that issue again.
_______________________________
Feeling guilt for WW pain, however, and not taking any type of keeps the bad feelings going. You have already accepted and acknowledged that you had some inappropriate behavior in your M, you have make your amends, and now you can move on.
I sense you feel guilty as part of the upbringing you had?
Guilt’s purpose isn’t to make you feel bad just for the sake of it.
____________________________
If your guilt isn’t trying to correct an actual mistake you made in your behavior (e.g., it’s unhealthy guilt), then there’s not a whole lot you need to learn. Instead of learning how to change that behavior, a person can instead try to understand why a simple behavior most people wouldn’t feel guilty about is making one feel guilty.
You fail feel guilty for your imperfection although that doesn’t exist in anyone. Everyone posting here in DB land has made mistakes, some of us the same ones over and over again. Let go of your guilt that WW has an u happy life because that is her choice RD. Behaviours have consequences, one of the results of putting an OM before you family is the loss of regard by your family. Her choice.
Not your monkeys, not your circus. I think you have taken the guilt on board.
Sometimes we read into another's sitch that which is in our own. You have advised me several time that I absorbed the whole blame for things which were not mine to own. I couldn't see it until recently, now I do. It kept me stuck. I think the same applies to RD. With a little twist, guilt.
Sadly I think this guilt keeps RD and his WW stuck, both looping.
I hope this helps RD, I would have you free to become.
I would have you free of this to be the most attractive RD that he can be.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Just a couple of thoughts from me on your post above...
It sounds as though one of the main reasons you have given up is that you believe things couldn't work primarily as a result of your own insecurities. And you know that you couldn't really trust anyone again.
I guess I would ask what kind of life you want to build for yourself through and after this experience? Do you want it to be one where your insecurities govern what you decide? One where you can't really trust anyone? Is this more about actually trusting in yourself - whatever others may be doing?
I understand what you're saying and I feel the same way to an extent. However, I don't think we need to accept that. I think it indicates work that we need to do within to help ourselves rebuild the happiest lives for us going forwards.
I also think the guilt is another area. As you say, your W doesn't appear content and at peace. Perhaps her guilt means she doesn't feel she deserves much and she leaves the family home intact whilst she lives in a not very nice place with a cr@ppy old car.
However, are you achieving the healthiest and happiest life possible given all circumstances? Would selling the house mean you could settle and resolve any asset issues and perhaps achieve a more formal separation, which could help you both move forward? Might this mean your W could spend more time with the kids in her own environment?
From your comments about your W, it sounds as though you still feel some responsibility 'for' her. As V posted above - and I agree - your W is responsible for the choices she makes and for the life she creates. She is responsible for her own health and for the relationships she builds and maintains with others. She is responsible for living the path she has chosen with whatever consequences that path brings.
Do you think your comments may be diminishing her somewhat? After all, she is an adult and is all of the above and will never be less than that?
I think the other theme in all of this is - what do you want and what is the best life for you given all circumstances? If you were truly putting yourself first, what would you seek?
I guess I'm posting this way because I feel there is an element of 'stuckness' in your sitch. You are saying you are completely done and there's no way back. But your W remains in constant touch with you and in your home once a week. I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong (after all....what do I know??) just asking what is best for you and how can you move towards this?
Hope some of this helps anyway - and all JMHO of course my friend xx
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
