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JellyB #2627608 11/30/15 03:26 PM
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Hi jelly b

My practical self needs to simplify your situation... It sounds like you "settled" for relationships that did not and were never going to be able to meet your needs or wants. And of course. Anyone that settles is eventually going to become resentful. So I guess at this point, you need to figure out why you do that so that you do not repeat this and then figure out what YOU truly want in a relationship going forward. Which it sounds like you are doing.

Why did you settle?

1. Do you frequently put others needs and happiness above your own? If so, why do you feel they are more imortant then you?

2. Do you do this because you feel like they are better then you or because you are trying to fit in? ( I often notice that women who are highly intelligent tend to humble themselves or put themselves down to be more accepted or so others find them more " relatable" or like able). If this was the case, it might just be figuring out how to be comfortable in your own skin.

3. Is there something about you that you feel insecure about, thus making you settle on someone that likes you, but cannot truly fulfill you.

4. Do romantic notions frequently override a more practical way of looking at relationships ? (Nothing to be ashamed of. I am complete opposite and can see how my husband was dissapointed by my outlook. But perhaps there needs to be a healthy middle)

You might have already explored all these thoughts so I'm not sure if they were any help. I think many people have trouble embracing who they are, and maybe we can both figure out together how to be comfortable in our own skins and build on our assertiveness in a healthy way smile

Last edited by JulieH; 11/30/15 03:28 PM.

Me: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
Physically Separated 7/2015
PigPen #2627798 12/01/15 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: PigPen
Hi Jelly B,

I loved your list of attributes and think they're more than fair as expectations in a relationship. Hold onto them and don't settle for less. I'll add that you may not get all of them all of the time, and some may have to be massaged out of your partner through honest communication.

From what you write here, you know your needs and desires, and you articulate them beautifully. Were I in a relationship with you I would know what they were and what was expected of me, I would have a framework from which to work within. That's really important IMO.

I believe that men want to make you happy, see you succeed, and be a part of you expressing yourself fully. It gives me great joy to think about being a small part of the facilitation of someone living their lives to the highest level. What else could you ask for in any kind of partnership other than the space to be exactly who you are? And then have the extra space to take that beingness to its limit.

Since we've both got travel on the plate, there's also growth that we need to experience. I know what I want out of a partner, and I know what I offer a partner. However the upcoming travel, I believe is where we're both going to encounter entirely new sets of incoming knowledge.

We're both going to be expanded in ways that we can't even imagine sitting at home. We're going to have conversations with people that will blow our minds, see sites that make us rethink our realities, and have our internal framework realigned.

You wrote of ways that you shut down, that you hide, that you become passive aggressive and abandon yourself. In my non professional opinion, your travels will help you with this as well. You're going to have to continue showing up for yourself all along your trip and that will reorganize how you interact with men. You have to be willing to stand with yourself through difficulty before someone else will.

One thing I've found currently with my W is that there are shifts in how I act with her. On two occasions I've found myself going down into my old patterns, but instead of fully going through them, I veer off and into a new healthier pattern almost immediately. I don't know why this happens, it's as out of my control as the old pattern was. Truthfully, I don't usually even catch it till hours later and think "Oh wow, a year ago XYZ would have happened from that conversation, and look at this, it didn't."

None of it was something I specifically worked on either, it's just happening. It's growth, it's having a new internal operating system.

I say that because I'll bet that you've done more growing on here than you give yourself credit for. Perhaps the right test hasn't come along to prove it to you, so you imagine that the Jelly of old is the one running the software, when in fact, the Jelly of new is. You've done the practice drills over and over, but you haven't had a chance to get into a game and show your new moves yet. Yet.

Either way, you're on the path. It's evident by your posts. It's evident by the posts you make on other people's threads. Like someone who has lost weight, you may look in the mirror everyday and see the old you because the loss has been incremental, but someone that hasn't seen you in two months is going to be blown away.

Trips are growth accelerators, they do things for us that staying home never could. They literally take you outside of your comfort zone and therefor force it to expand. Add all of that to the work you've already done and I have complete faith that the next time your needs aren't being met you're going to articulately voice what needs to happen and do so from a place of strength. A place that says, "This is what I need, and I hope you can meet me here. If not, I'll find someone that can. I'm worth this, and so are you."

Please keep posting, I have a feeling that you've got more of a silent fan club on here than you realize.

Big hug,

PP


Thanks for stopping by with you wise and kind words PP.

I would like to think that my expectations were more than fair, it hasn’t felt that way at times. But I am learning that when you choose someone who is not the right fit for you it is unlikely that expectations will seem fair to either of you.

I am much better at communicating myself in writing than verbally. Well that is not entirely true. I am a very good verbal communicator and have done a lot of training and presentation work. But get me talking about my needs and wants with a person I am emotionally invested in and all my skill goes out the window. I choose the easy path of appeasement and avoidance.

I find where I struggle, is in saying what I want and need, as soon as I don’t feel understood. I give up because my other half is just not getting it. I don’t manage the “yeah but” or “you should do it this way” or “how silly to think and feel like that”. It frustrates me no end and I think what is the point. If they don’t understand me, why would they give me what I ask for.

You are right too, in the fact that I have no intimate partner to measure the changes or even practice on. I try in my daily life to engage my learning with people I come across and in work situations where I would usually respond in old unproductive ways. I really don’t feel like I have a new operating system in place yet. I feel that I have old hardware that is trying really hard to run it. It’s not quite all coming together.

I’m not sure the travel is going to bring me all the opportunities you suggest. I think that will likely by the case for you. For me I think my freedom and sense of connecting to others will be greatly improved by the success of my plastic surgery. I feel like once it is done I can leave behind a very sad misunderstood person who lacked so much confidence and self-love. I believe it will make me feel more open to new experiences and people.

I hope I am not setting myself up to be expecting to be a whole new person inside and due to a few nips and tucks. But the people I have spoken to who have had plastic surgery all talk about how life changing it was for their self-confidence and how they felt so much better in their own skin (figuratively if not literally).

Only time will tell I guess. Once again PP thank you for stopping by and sharing the love!

JellyB XXX

Last edited by JellyB; 12/01/15 05:15 AM.
JellyB #2627799 12/01/15 05:31 AM
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JB,

One thing I've realized is that we all settle in Rs, and we all make sacrifices. The one you made is very profound. But it was done for noble reasons.

More and more I read about WAS's who leave because they are sick of their sacrifices, compromises, etc. And even LBS's talking about not settling, raising the bar, putting themselves first. I don't think that's the answer so simply.

As for communication, I learned the power of email. After STBX left we communicated through email. It turns out we were able to communicate better through email than at any point during our R. Apparently it created a perfect forum where we both had time to think about what we wanted to say, say it clearly, not be reactive, think about each other's points, and both of us used the same tone of voice in terms of it being typed, not shouted. Very powerful. Good to know for the future.

More later. Goodnight.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues126 #2627802 12/01/15 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: Zues126
I'm really still feeling the pain of the loss JB. I will admit I had always thought you had it easier in that you didn't have to co-parent with your ex, that you could make a clean start with relatively little 'baggage' compared to us. I forget at times that my children aren't baggage, they are my family, and they are more precious to me than anything. The biggest pain I've encountered is having to drop them off and not see them for days at a time. I am sorry I didn't realize more clearly how difficult it must be to not have a family of your own at all at this time, and for that window to be behind you. All the more betrayal at the man that took your soul as sacrifice and then reneged on the commitment.

I have nothing to compare to that. This doesn't come close, it's just the only thing I can think of. I could've been a world champion pool player. Traveled around the world. Studying the game. Reading. Playing tournaments. Seeing new cities. Etc. I gave that up to be with my W. Beyond that- I didn't want to start a family at that point. She did. She wanted to be a SAHM. I worked my tail off to make that happen. All of it. After all of it she left. Once she had my sperm and money locked up that was all of me that was needed, chuck the rest out like an old piece of fruit. She kept me around just long enough to get the youngest into preschool. How convenient.

The point though is that whether they appreciated the gift or not, you gave it, and it was a loving and generous gift. Maybe too much to give to any partner, but then again maybe not. Had your relationship worked out and blossomed into something wonderful, something of stories, maybe you would've felt more meaning in the sacrifice. In that case it would've been a good choice. Well, then it was, because you can't control him, and all you can do is give the opportunity for something you believed you were building.

I'm sure you've thought about this a million times more than me. Just feeling your loss tonight like it's my own and going through these thoughts for the first time.


Hey lovely Zues

Your post was a hard to read initially. I felt my sadness and I had a cry and I moved on.

Don’t feel sad for me Zues. I am healing and I am ok with this now. Not 100% but pretty much there.

Let my clarify some points. When I met Mr M I was 35 and he from the outset communicated he didn’t want marriage and children. I thought how that could be an issue when I just met him and didn’t know that he was worth investing in.
I thought I will give this a year and see how it goes. I have enough time. I thought 36 would still be enough time to meet someone else, get married and have children if things didn’t work out with Mr M.

I was 37 by the time I discovered that we weren’t suited. I dated after Mr M , but didn’t meet Mr Ex until I was 39. He stated that he didn’t want children or marriage and I thought, Ok I just did that for with someone I wasn’t suited to and I am now 39, what is the difference now. It wasn’t until I was fully committed and invested in Mr Ex, that I realised how much I wanted to be married and have children. I wanted those things with him.

There’s a lot more to the above- which has a lot to do with my lack of relationship status in my younger years– Mr M was my first boyfriend. But there is no point digging around in this field it has been done to death. Lol

I have talked a lot in therapy about what being married and having children mean to me. I feel I could have easily have been married with no children and could easily have had children without being married. I’m not sure why I could have one without the other. Something about a shared commitment seems to be important to me.

But all this is redundant now. Every now and then I have a pang of loss. I have thought about having a child on my own. I could easily make it happen. My mother has offered money for IVF and I have a lovely man in my life who would provide the sperm. But I have some very strong beliefs about children having access to both parents and a sense of family. Don’t get me wrong I absolutely respect wholeheartedly the sense of family my mother created as a single parent. But I know the loss of not having a father who engaged with me as a parent, father or dad (if that makes sense) and didn’t see my mother respected as a wife and mother by him. I wouldn’t want that for my child.

I think the point of raising this issue is more about how I settled (as JulieH) so rightly put it. I did, I compromised what should have been a non-negotiable a deal-breaker. But the decision to commit to two men I loved, well it was the idealist romantic in me thinking that all I needed was them and our commitment. Naïve I know, but nonetheless true.
I believe in sacrifice in relationships, likely to my detriment. And maybe Zues this is the rub of the expectations I have of the men in my life. I guess I really do expect that someone would love me enough to sacrifice for me, because that is what you do. This is too big I think for any person, any man to deal with. I know it is unhealthy to view things this way, I am a rarity I know, I am crazy too to even believe it. And likely why I am where I am. But that’s me I guess.


Thank you for your kindness and empathy Zues. I feel very cared for and supported.

JellyB XXX

Last edited by JellyB; 12/01/15 05:48 AM.
JulieH #2627804 12/01/15 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: JulieH
Hi jelly b

My practical self needs to simplify your situation... It sounds like you "settled" for relationships that did not and were never going to be able to meet your needs or wants. And of course. Anyone that settles is eventually going to become resentful. So I guess at this point, you need to figure out why you do that so that you do not repeat this and then figure out what YOU truly want in a relationship going forward. Which it sounds like you are doing.

Why did you settle?

1. Do you frequently put others needs and happiness above your own? If so, why do you feel they are more imortant then you?

2. Do you do this because you feel like they are better then you or because you are trying to fit in? ( I often notice that women who are highly intelligent tend to humble themselves or put themselves down to be more accepted or so others find them more " relatable" or like able). If this was the case, it might just be figuring out how to be comfortable in your own skin.

3. Is there something about you that you feel insecure about, thus making you settle on someone that likes you, but cannot truly fulfill you.

4. Do romantic notions frequently override a more practical way of looking at relationships ? (Nothing to be ashamed of. I am complete opposite and can see how my husband was dissapointed by my outlook. But perhaps there needs to be a healthy middle)

You might have already explored all these thoughts so I'm not sure if they were any help. I think many people have trouble embracing who they are, and maybe we can both figure out together how to be comfortable in our own skins and build on our assertiveness in a healthy way smile


Simplify away!
I can’t disagree with anything you write above.
Did I settle yip tick to that.
Do I put myself down, Yip tick to that
Do I feel insecure, Yip tick to that – been a fatty all my life, hate social situations where I feel judge by my physical appearance. I feel that men only want thin women who have bounce and confidence. I am socially awkward and introverted.
Do I frequently put others needs and happiness above my own, Yip tick to that.
Am I an idealist romantic, yip tick to that
In response to your post Julie H, I settled, I feel insecure, I give too much, I idealise, because it’s part of feeling unworthy of love.
Self-love for me is like being let out of this windowless/doorless room where I have been tortured for years by my own hand, and I have moved far away from that room to a new country where I don’t speak the language. It is incredibly overwhelming. The safety of the windowless room is so inviting.
I so appreciate you posting on my thread. I appreciate your care and interest. I too hope we both become more comfortable in our own skins.

JellyB #2627806 12/01/15 06:58 AM
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Hi Jelly,
Quote:
I believe in sacrifice in relationships, likely to my detriment. And maybe Zues this is the rub of the expectations I have of the men in my life. I guess I really do expect that someone would love me enough to sacrifice for me, because that is what you do. This is too big I think for any person, any man to deal with. I know it is unhealthy to view things this way, I am a rarity I know, I am crazy too to even believe it. And likely why I am where I am. But that’s me I guess.


I don't really understand why you think this is so crazy. Isn't this exactly what a relationship between two individuals has to be in order for it to work? Two people cannot be the same, so both have to give (which means sacrifice something). Giving up something doesn't necessarily have to mean losing part of yourself, it's just giving it to someone else and filling that with something from the other.

It's not crazy at all.


Me-45 W-44
S21, S18, D15
T-27, M-21
BD Jan 2014
PA revealed March 2014
In-house separation - April 2015
I filed - Aug 2015
She moved out Oct 2015
u-turn #2627888 12/01/15 03:56 PM
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JellyB

I do take interest in your thread. Even though we are a bit opposite regarding how we were in our relationships, I relate to your journey trying to discover who you are and how to be comfortable with that.

I also relate to you delving into a world In which you are seeking a new companion and trying to figure out what will attract someone. (Something in my future that my pragmatic self is preparing for) I relate to being the public nice girl because I want to be like able (Which makes no sense because the people I actually like are the ones that are saying the cynical things I am secretly thinking smile. )

Just some thoughts on attractiveness...Do you ever notice how a really pretty girl that slouches and hides and looks uncomfortable does not get much attention or respect from men, but a girl that might not be as attractive but has that confidence and self assurance is approached?

We need to channel that girl when we are interacting. I don't mean copy someone's mannerisms or anything, just that energy... That posture, that eye contact, the smile. Almost like an actress would when playing a role. I think if you fake it till you make it you could actually become that person. Not faking your personality just your confidence level. am I making sense? Lol. This is gonna be my goal. To smile more and be confident enough to subtly flirt with men. Just as practice for now to get my old self back. Maybe reflect on another female that you admire?

I have some friends that are pretty overweight. 2 that come to mind. But they both carry themselves like royalty, say and do whatever they want and they have never had problems attracting men. They exude sexiness. One in particular has the energy I would want to channel . She is gorgeous.

Another habit I have to break out of is not accepting compliments well and referring to myself humbly. This is not sexy at all smile and I think it convinces me on a deeper level to acknowledge the negative aspect about me instead of the positive. It seems like you might do this as well?

JulieH #2628066 12/02/15 02:42 AM
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Hey Julie, I understand what you're saying...the same advice was given for the guys (if you were around for the man cave thread or whatever, what a disaster wink )

I suppose that makes sense for those that want to be the life of the party, or to pick up girls/guys at bars. Me? I have zero interest in doing that. I don't want to pick up girls. I don't want many women in my life. I want ONE. One good woman that wants one man. Not only don't I not gravitate towards women that exude a 'sexy confidence', I am put off by it a little. Maybe because I don't like the game, and I am not interested in a woman that wants to play the field, go through guys like disposable razors, and needs the attention of men to feel attractive. The fact that JB didn't date until she was 35, is somewhat introverted, and is loyal to her guys...well, those are positive characteristics to me. Of course, I'm half crazy so maybe JB is doomed to attract weirdos, but as long as she finds a weirdo that loves her and is willing to commit to her and make her their number one priority I think it will have a happy ending.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
JulieH #2628100 12/02/15 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: JulieH
JellyB

I do take interest in your thread. Even though we are a bit opposite regarding how we were in our relationships, I relate to your journey trying to discover who you are and how to be comfortable with that.

I also relate to you delving into a world In which you are seeking a new companion and trying to figure out what will attract someone. (Something in my future that my pragmatic self is preparing for) I relate to being the public nice girl because I want to be like able (Which makes no sense because the people I actually like are the ones that are saying the cynical things I am secretly thinking smile. )

Just some thoughts on attractiveness...Do you ever notice how a really pretty girl that slouches and hides and looks uncomfortable does not get much attention or respect from men, but a girl that might not be as attractive but has that confidence and self assurance is approached?

We need to channel that girl when we are interacting. I don't mean copy someone's mannerisms or anything, just that energy... That posture, that eye contact, the smile. Almost like an actress would when playing a role. I think if you fake it till you make it you could actually become that person. Not faking your personality just your confidence level. am I making sense? Lol. This is gonna be my goal. To smile more and be confident enough to subtly flirt with men. Just as practice for now to get my old self back. Maybe reflect on another female that you admire?

I have some friends that are pretty overweight. 2 that come to mind. But they both carry themselves like royalty, say and do whatever they want and they have never had problems attracting men. They exude sexiness. One in particular has the energy I would want to channel . She is gorgeous.

Another habit I have to break out of is not accepting compliments well and referring to myself humbly. This is not sexy at all smile and I think it convinces me on a deeper level to acknowledge the negative aspect about me instead of the positive. It seems like you might do this as well?


Thanks for stopping by again JulieH.

It is funny, I am definitely a nice girl too. And after many hours of wanting and working towards being less nice. I have surrendered. It's who I am. Am I a nice girl because I am as Brene Brown says "husselling for a approval". This may well be the case. But I also value treating people well and respectfully. I think the tension then is when other people take advantage. Boundaries and self respect then come into play. I am working on these. The little budding boundary maker I am.

With regard to your comments about attraction. Yip I get entirely where you are coming from. I have to say though, I am not remotely interested in men, who prefer the extroverted confident bubbly girl, who is off doing 1000 things with her life, busy every minute of the day planning to be somewhere and doing something, seeing someone. And I'm not interested in them because they tend to be the same. My introverted nature doesn't cope too well with being socially over committed. And the good thing is these men are not remotely interested in me.

I do as most woman like strong active masculine men, but like Zues said I appreciate weirdos, soulful outsiders, or insiders with soul, thinkers and feelers. Men that have lived and loved and grown. I want to be surprised kept on my toes, extended, shown things and ways of thinking that I haven't had access to previously. Men tend to find my interest in them engaging. (note this could possibly be a problem - might to come back to this later)

I feel like a bit a fraud in what I am about to write. I'm just getting my head around it myself, but here goes. I do feel insecure about my size and it chomps at my self esteem on a daily basis- has undermined my relationships.

But here is the issue in response to your post. Men who take the time to know me find me smart and sexy. I am warm, generous, I have a great smile, and while shy my gentle nature often makes people very comfortable. I'm interested in others, I ask men to show me who they are, I want to know , I like to laugh and am generally easy going in the outside world. And I'm naturally quite flirtatious. Men tend to mistake my self awareness as self confidence. The men that want to be with me tend to adore me.

The trick that I am struggling to master is once I attract these men in their state of adoration and commitment. How do I sustain it? How do I not chase them away?

This is my learning.

In response to you becoming more yourself. I remember when I was first coming out of my shell back in my early 30's dating men for the first time. I had to learn how to look men in the eye and smile. I began practicing on everyone, I literally flirted with everyone, getting a sense of what people responded to. If you are interested in this topic of rediscovering your feminine self and ability to engage and flirt, an internet guru on this matter (how qualified she is I don't know, but try looking up Rori Ray) she has some great ideas on building your feminine energy and she strongly recommends flirting with everyone. Men, women children. The flirting energy is about learning to feel comfortable in your own skin, and externalising it.

JellyBXXX

Last edited by JellyB; 12/02/15 09:00 AM.
JellyB #2628168 12/02/15 03:38 PM
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Jelly b, thanks for suggestion. I will look up Rory Ray. Truth is, I usually put on a nice girl, persona because I want to be liked, or perhaps it's to conform to societies expectations. I too come across as gentle and people tend to be comfortable with me as well. I know the verbage and vocabulary but Inside I'm a lot more cynical and tend to relate to and have more fun with the people that are brutally honest and non conformist and somewhat of a misfit. I joke that my closest friends are men in female bodies. (I have never been a popular cheerleader smile ). So a big change for me would be to embrace myself even if it means I won't be liked. Or perhaps I just have many sides to me that come out with different people and situations. I had a feeling that flirting is more about learning to be comfortable in your own skin. I stopped completely when committed because I felt there was no more need and have to learn again but really it's about being confident with who I am and like you said externalizing it.

I am similar to you and perhaps zues as well in that I hate games. I dislike the alpha male that feels the need to shake my hand hard because he read in a book that he is supposed to. Or the female that overdoes the smiling and eye contact and comes across as that confident business/ sales woman from the Simpsons that really doesn't know much but seems like she does. I like and trust authenticity but often feel that when I am authentic I get take advantage of.

When I suggested channeling that energy of confidence, I really didn't mean for you or for me to become something we are not (like a social butterfly) or to throw ourselves at men desperately seeking attention. More to just be able to accept and be proud of what we are inside and outside because I think people that are like that are attractive. They know they are attractive deep down so don't need or care about others approval and because they believe it others do too. The issue is when we are not truly confident about ourselves, what do we do? My thought was to fake it till you make it.

I often like to be openly honest and humble about my flaws but i realize that when you do it too much, I find there are people that mistake that honesty for weakness and then the whole need for boundaries and assertiveness comes into play.

Perhaps a better example is this...when I finished school and entered my field I had all this book knowledge but minimal hands on experience. In order for people to be confident working with me, I had to show them that I was confident with my skills, and I wasn't... rightfully so because I was a new grad. But professionally I needed them to be comfortable working with me so I had to channel an aura of competence but in a way that was honest and respectful instead of arrogant and overconfident. Eventually I really began to know what I was doing and now I do pretty well.

I'm sorry for the rambling and disorganization and Im sorry because this is probably not helpful at all. I never read the man cave thread so I didn't realize this was already a topic
smile .

Last edited by JulieH; 12/02/15 03:46 PM.

Me: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
Physically Separated 7/2015
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