Lost Hope (5)

[tl2]

Zues,

But I can sleep at night knowing who I am, what I did, and there is no sex in the world that is better than being able to look in the mirror.

Reading that story you told about you at work and the women made me think you might be my long lost twin. I had something similar happen in the months following my W's disclosure about her adultery although the women I was around didn't work with or for me, so it was less complicated. To make matters worse, I was running a lot at the time and was in great shape for 40 and had some opportunities, and it wasn't simply about the physical act it was about being wanted and valued...but the physical was part of it to be sure. It made me almost physically ill having to resist that temptation. I started running early mornings before work, going to the gym at lunch, then coming home and running again before supper just to burn off the stress and wear myself out. It was brutal.

One thing I used to tell myself at the time was, Someday one or both of your kids might be in a similar spot and need someone who can testify to the value of doing what's right over what's easy or more desirable.
But I thought about it exactly as you did and to this day I am glad I resisted that.

[JulieH]

Hi Julie,

Thanks for the female insight.

Maximus, I am sure she suspected an affair which would be a huge motivator for her to hit the gym the way she did and to seek affirmation from another man to make her feel good about the way she looks. Could be, she also lost her job so i presume unhappiness at home and job loss made her take refuge in gim

You wrote "I never considered her sexually since a long time". She probably sensed this. As I said, a woman gets turned on knowing that she turns you on. Then why do they reject the H's advances?

The suspected affair was a huge insult to her ego. She simply wants to feel beautiful and desired. We can tell by the way you look and talk to us. Talk to her like you would a very sexy girl in her early 20s. Like she is a prize you want to win. Very good point. I realized looking back that as H we treat them as sex objects. Forget the day interactions you mention and then expect a porn star in bed. I try that now. Hugging from behind sporadically during the day, kissing her neck, speaking sweetly and sounding happy to hear her voice. This in conjunction with my change as a H to be next to her and not behind her.

If you were involved with someone else, I can imagine how detached you were from wife and for a long period of time too and I can imagine how bad she felt not knowing for sure but suspecting. So do I

I know you feel the affair was justified but she will never see this. She will see how hurt you made her feel and how you chose other woman instead of being patient and working with her. The way man think they work on things and communicate is different then the way women do As she also had a fling, would you say a W then realises what got H to also go wayward?

(She is exercising to the point her Achilles tendons are about to tear...do you see the emotional pain she is in? ) I know she is in emotional pain because sometimes an innocent action will cause her eyes to swell. an example .. i was supposed to meet her at the gim to go to the doctor for my back. I forgot and thought she was coming home to pick me up. I saw time went by and no news. i then sent her a message that it was strange she did not turn up and that i hope everything was Ok. I didnt want to call because i thought she was having a crisis. I left for the appt and she arrived home and called me saying her phone blocked and that she was not irresponsible and would not leave me to go by myself she was not that sort of person... all crying. I calmed her down and she came to the doctor and picked me up. she just exploded. so I know her head has a storm.

I suspect the 180 in your case would be giving her attention, time, and tons of verbal affirmations? When did you give up giving her romance? Years ago when she stopped accepting it. she would go mad when i gave her a bunch of flowers saying it was a waste of money. She once made me and my son give back a cologne we bought for her because she thought it was throwing money away and she stopped using cologne. Me and my son hated those days where you had to give gifts like mothers day or her birthday. We then just bought anything saying what the hell w will make us give it back anyway.

it sounds like you resent her because of no sex and she resents you for something. You might have to be bigger person (which it sounds like you are trying to be) and put your resentments to side. I'm not saying to tell her of your indiscretion, but you might want to treat her the way someone that cheated on his wife and is trying to get her back does. By swallowing your needs for a while and just rebuilding her confidence. Give her time to trust you again. Show remorse and apologize for neglecting her. Make her feel beautiful
doing all that Julie that is why I am here.

Hugs Max

Ok. I am relating to your wife because I have a similar sentiment torwards gifts and tend to get obsessed with exercise. Maybe this will help...

As I said, many of us females feel desire when we know we are attractive to opposite sex. It feeds are ego and makes us feel desirable which increases our libidos. I think your wife needs verbal reinforcement....

Try making comments to her like " your body is looking so nice and tight, I can't even sleep any more" or "when you bend over like that your driving me crazy". "Your (fill in blank) looks so hot you don't know how much I think about you. Etc.
Don't pressure her or come on to her that moment. Then she will think you are saying that to get her to bed because your horny. Let the words linger in her mind. Be consistent but don't overdo it. She needs to feel desired and attractive. Let her initiate when she's ready and show your appreciation when she does.

(my advice is just that of one female perspective so keep that in mind, but the other stuff isn't working so it won't hurt to try)

[JulieH]

Tl2. Not many men or women would have turned down an opportunity like that after discovering their spouse was unfaithful. As a female, I turned down a few opportunities simply because i recognized it would devalue me if I was easy (I have never had 1 night stand). Plus I have a huge fear of stds. My motives were more selfish. it sounds like you turned this down for selfless reasons and if I was a man I don't know if I would have done this. Your wife was a fool.

[JulieH]

Julie mentioned seeing how she could feel distrustful of me after that. Funny, I thought she'd have reason to trust me more. Considering the situation I'm not really sure how anyone could have handled it with more integrity. The only thing I could've done differently is not felt the feelings I was feeling. Hmmm. I'll tip my hat to those without temptation.

When you look at this rationally and logically, you are absolutely right. Your honesty regarding the situation reveals a man That has a lot of integrity and is very trustworthy. But relationships and feelings and woman are not rational. We all have fantasies about other people and we should never act on them. But I think that by revealing your fantasy, your wife might have thought that there was more to it then just a fantasy or why confess. I know my husband has to be attracted to other females. He is human. But I don't want to hear about it. It would hurt my ego and make me feel unattractive which would decrease my libido. I wouldn't appreciate the sacrifice he made to be loyal to me, I would view it as an affront to my sexuality and it would have damaged my pride.

Zues, One of my brothers and his best friend remind me so much of you. Highly intelligent, very sensitive, noble, filled with great insight and honesty and they strive to always do the right thing. (I always thought my husband was like this as well). Their wives do not realize how lucky they are to have them. There is an innocence or idealism to that black and white way of thinking and sometimes I think by advising you or my brother to not do what you felt was right, is actually changing that unique perspective and way of acting on life that you have. You are men that are different from the majority of men and I think that's a good way to be and want you and my brother to not feel like you have to change to fit in with people that do not do the right things.

It's hard, because most people do not have or are incapable of appreciating your good intentions because of their own insecurities and ego so their feelings end up getting hurt and I know that was not your intent. You wanted to proove to her your loyalty. I know how confusing females can be and how frusturating it is to witness them falling for the guys that know how to use BS words that are lies. It's called playing the game and I respect that you don't do it.

But I do think that there has to be a way to remain honest and true to yourself but to also protect someone's Feelings. Sorry but All I can offer is an understanding of how your wife probably felt and I know it's all in the past.






I tried a lot of ways to improve the R that were probably 'my ways', and failed to really try to work on things 'her ways'. And at times I was so worn out with it that I'd take a break and just live my life for a while. When we wouldn't talk it wasn't out of anger or rage, but rather just defeat

. It's funny, my husband keeps saying how much he tried and I don't see it. Obviously he didn't try too hard, since he left. When he didn't talk or interact much with me, it was the worst thing in my mind. I sometimes would say something I knew would lead into a fight, just to have some interaction because to me any type of communication was better then none. Feeling stonewalled was the worst cause it made me feel as if I could not get throught to him. I wish I had read all the relationship books sooner.

[Zues126]

Thanks for the reply Julie.

To clarify one thing...the only reason I told STBX is because my #1 priority was to preserve my M. It felt like an evil witch was trying to cast a spell on me and destroy my marriage. I had been trying to fight it on my own but was struggling. I basically told my W because I needed help in a dark hour. And it was instant. It was like once I confessed the desire went away like a demon that couldn't stand the light of day. Had I been able to handle this on my own it would've been a non-issue like any of the thoughts that flicker through our minds. I felt like I was in the deep end of the pool and starting to gasp for air and I thought of my wife as my life partner that could work through this stuff with me.

I am too idealistic. I know this. Here's how- I am like 25% as idealistic as my father.

My father couldn't hold a marriage. 3 wives that I know of, and without the details let's just say they didn't work. Although he's had a 15 year relationship with his girlfriend now, so I think he's figuring out a few things.

More to the point, I know of many situations in which this kept him from holding a job or a career. For example, he left a good job because the culture wasn't a fit. OK, fair enough. He drove cab for a bit while he looked for other jobs. One thing he learned was that the 'dispatcher' got to pick which cab drivers got the most profitable runs, and he found out that it was common practice for the cab drivers to give a gratuity to the dispatcher in exchange for the airport runs that were the most profitable. My dad considered this bribery and was outraged and refused to participate. As a result he struggled and didn't last long. I could give other examples, but the point is he struggled to be effective because he refused to accept the way things actually were.

I have much of that in me, but I've overcome that in parts of my life for one reason- Pool. See, the plus side to my black/white thinking is that once I fixate on a result then the rest of my universe has to shift and change to accomplish that result. So when I decided to become the greatest pool player that ever lived (although I didn't get that far ) I did whatever was necessary to get there. For example, maybe many of my opponents would do things that were underhanded during competition. I could choose to be idealistic and not compete in an arena where people spoiled the purity of the game...but then I wouldn't hit my goal. My goal was ALL POWERFUL so I just made their poor behavior part of the game I was going to win, then set about developing the mental toughness and perspective to overcome those obstacles. I did this for everything until no one within driving distance wanted to play me for more than coffee money.

So too with my job. Sales isn't easy. The world doesn't work the way I want it to. But I could see that I could either make a story about why I can't do it, or I can deal with it. So once again I realigned my views and narratives, and have climbed to the top (although I'm still battling in the role I took a year ago...but I'll win Julie, rest assured).

But I do struggle with idealism still. And if I don't have an absolute commitment to something it's easy for me to be put off by how things really work.

That's where I stand with relationships right now. See, in my mind I see a husband and a wife acting as a partnership. Suppose for just a minute you could transcend yourself and BE the partnership...understanding each person to the same level. Would it be possible to make the relationship work? I always thought so.

Let's look at my idealism as it pertains to the situation we were discussing. I have a lot of desire and lust. The view above to me seems like 'ok, gross, we women don't want to know about it because we feel we should be able to be your everything and this challenges that fantasy and is hurtful and threatening, so just pretend you don't feel this way and we'll pretend you don't either, because if you really did that would be awful'. But to me this whole pretending feels awful, because I feel like I'm hideously ugly person and that I need to wear a bag over my head and never show my face to anyone, because if I do everyone will run and scream. What accentuates this is that I already feel like I'm ugly for having this much desire, so when my life partner can't stand the sight of me all it did was destroy my connection with her because I felt like she didn't like me, she wanted the person she demanded I pretended to be.

I couldn't accept this. I don't want to feel I have to wear a mask in a relationship to be accepted. I believed I should be able to be honest about my feelings. Why should she be threatened that I felt physical lust or occasional fantasies about other women? She had my lifelong commitment. She had my unwavering loyalty. She would be the only person in the world I shared this with. In fact, she would be the only person in the world I would be intimate with, and I would have no desire to be close with anyone but her because everyone else I had to wear a mask for, but she would accept me for who I was. I had the idea that she would understand me, accept me, and make my needs a priority, being the strong woman behind the strong man, knowing that it wasn't easy to be a man but that we could do it as a team.

Is that possible? I haven't seen it, so maybe it's chasing a unicorn. So I'm torn between one of three things: 1) Finding a relationship that works that way, 2) determining that I want a relationship to work so much I'm willing to sacrifice my ideals of how I believe it should work and don a mask and play make believe with a woman that doesn't really know me, or 3) just give up on relationships because I don't want to play that game and if it doesn't work that way I'm not interested.

Right now I'm leaning towards #3/1. Probably not interested in playing the game, but open if the universe shows me a unicorn. That said I'm sure I'll mature and grow, and maybe in 5-10 years I'll decide that I'd rather be remarried than single. That's possible. But right now I still find it pretty gross and would rather just play pool or poker or chess, where the objective is clear, the rules are fair, and I can have fun and win.

[tl2]

Julie,

Well to be honest there were a lot of factors and not entirely selfless either. I too fear STDs (especially since my W contracted one during one of her infidelities)...and that seriously affected our sex life and my desire for her. I too have never had a one night stand and (aside from when I was a teenager) have never really wanted random anonymous anything.

Still, I did flirt with her and talk to her like she was the cutest, most desirable girl in the room. And for me she always was. From the moment we got serious 21 years ago she has always been my first and only choice. But I was never hers it seems...or not for a very long while.

When the going gets tough it's easy to see who's a giver and who's a taker. Your H as well is a fool because I think givers are more mature (I have to build, pay my dues, and accept that no one sane gets everything they want) while takers may be a bit more pragmatic (I'm not happy right now and there's a reason).

We givers end up putting up with too much because of our ideals and our long-term goal; takers end up running away because they don't have much to really give and they are short-term thinkers...they project into the future and think the reality now is the way it will always be. So...run away now!

My kids are in their 20s and trying to get established in good paying jobs, and I am constantly reminding them of what I call the 'opportunity gap': the best opportunities can be obtained if you understand there is a process of hard work and sacrifice/compromise/delayed gratification to get there. I think marriage and family works the same way.

All people are broken in some way. A mature person loves their partner and supports them through that while at the same time not enabling or exploiting their weaknesses. With some there may be a time to cut and run if your life or health is in danger, but most of us have flaws that are merely annoying or hurtful to our spouses and not dangerous.

I would never have D'd my W. But I did finally give tell her over the summer when I discovered another EA / possible PA...I can not move forward in the marriage until you get help with your drinking, lying, and cheating. For some reason I fully expected her to take advantage of the opportunity, straighten up, and fly right...we have great kids, a nice home, good jobs, and I was willing to do whatever was right and healthy and necessary to heal whatever needed it in our R, and give her space to do what she needed to do.

She did go to one AA meeting but said it wasn't for her. She went to IC but refused to talk to me about what she was doing there. For three months she ignored, lied, stonewalled, and manipulated me. Then she left. So I got my answer.

I'm sad to say I was a mess the first week she was gone. I remained crushed the rest of that month. By the following month I had to start accepting the reality of what was happening and get on with life. I had to accept that she had some serious problems (destructive patterns going back to early adolescence) and without dealing with that and committing to the marriage I was just in for more of being cheated on and disrespected.

You started this thread talking about how confused, angry, hopeless you feel. I don't think any marriage is unsavable if the people involved are both sane and committed to honoring the vows. In the end for me that's what this is ultimately about. Some people mean them when they say them, and some are just making noise.

I hated feeling like a quitter. But my IC reminded me that I didn't quit, she did. We all have to accept what we can't control, and lead our kids through this as best we can.

[dday]

That last paragraph speaks volumes. We aren't the quitters. Learn to accept and put the kids first.

Still is horrible to be here, but we have to do the best we can and better ourselves through this.

[JulieH]

Zues, I understand feeling frusturated by the world being an irrational and self serving place. (I actually completely changed my studies and career aspirations early on because of this realization ) It's like discovering that your favorite politician who you donated tons of time and money to is just like all the rest.
I have to say that thank goodness there are people that are like you and do not take the easy way out. I know you have high expectations of yourself and you continue to meet them. Most of us are not like that and often choose the path of least resistance. You serve as a great model for your children.

When it comes to lust, I do not think that is a problem for most women. We expect and enjoy that in men. (Why do you think we are all out there spending tons of money on over the knee boots? ). We certainly do not think it is gross and I know plenty of women that like porn and strip clubs as well. The female image is attractive plain and simple and there is no shame in being turned on by these images. We just don't want to be replaced by someone real or held up to unobtainable standards. We don't want to pretend, but we do need to know that we are attractive to you and that we are desired.

I dont understand why you feel like your wife could not stand the sight of you and why you are ashamed of normal human urges. Did you continue to have desire for her as well? Did you feel guilty if perhaps you lost this desire?

[Zues126]

Thanks for the reply Julie.

I almost always had desire for my W. The fact that she was my W, mother of my children, heart of my family...it made her more desirable than any woman in the world.

Still, I understand that feelings lead to perception. When she'd reject me or neglect me it would hurt, and after enough pain sometimes she wouldn't look as beautiful. And of course physically she did the stereotypical SAHM letting herself go and wearing baggy pajamas around the house and getting pretty run down. Yes, there were times I felt put off and a bit guilty for not being more attracted to her or more understanding of how much she had on her plate.

Funny, for me the biggest turn on would be able to be myself, have my W understand what was in my heart, embrace it, and love me and fulfill me. I wanted to be able to share my fantasies with my W and talk about what turned me on. Or flirt with her in sexual ways throughout the day. And so on. She always shut this down...or she'd play along but resent it, and later tell me that this was proof we weren't right for each other. But I don't think there was ever a time she couldn't have revved my engine.

Why couldn't she stand the sight of me? It's probably a tragedy waiting to be written (or one that has been 10,000 times). I understand that the same way she looked less desirable to me when she rejected me, that's how I'd look less desirable to her when I pressured her. She wouldn't feel safe, and she felt diminished, like if I loved her for who she really was I wouldn't ask for anything she didn't want to lovingly provide. This lead to a brutal cycle. I know my part was destructive. I pressured in many ways to get what I wanted. I found myself thinking the same way that people do to justify an affair- I deserved it, it was only fair, etc. I now know this is wrong. I also know it is nearly impossible to exist in a sexless marriage with a woman that neglects your needs and diminishes your cries of anguish. I think I'd do better if I could do it all over again, but sometimes I think back to the horror and how impossible it seemed and I still don't know. That's why I don't feel I'm ready for an R yet at times.

Anyway, I'm going to try to think of other ways to hijack your thread. Catch you later!

[JulieH]

Tl2.. Those are great words, and you are right, we are not quitters. But as they say it takes 2 to make a marriage and only 1 to end it. I am not a selfless giver by any means. I Am beginning to see that it is not fair to ourselves to accept certain behavior that we know is wrong in the battle to preserve a marriage. there is a fine line between enabling destructive behavior and unfair choices and working hard to save a marriage. If we can't do what is right and best for ourselves, then we can't expect them to treat us that way either. I am learning this and getting my old self back. Thank you