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Judy, thanks for dropping by, I have missed you! I feel that you are right, she is keeping me just close enough for her plans...whatever they are. She is still trying to talk to me as if nothing has changed. Wednesday night it was dentist, shopping, dogs, etc. Last night it was black Friday stuff. My sis is starting a new business, and W took her card when I showed her. W has been texting my sister too. And they hadn't communicated since W filed. Why now?

I am trying to figure out how to be as dark as possible, and not be an ass. I still want a chance at R, but I don't with the person she is right now. So it's going to take work on her end. I am closer to the values and actions of the person she married. W has never been farther. I know it can work out. If she wants it to. I am losing my faith in her though. That is another big blow.

My grandma, in the nursing home, yesterday said to me to keep praying and that God takes things away sometimes to make us realize what we had. And sometimes because they would get so much worse. Said to have faith that it will all work out. I'm trying!


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dday, I just read this and thought you might like it. It resonates with me. I did not write it only copied and pasted it. Let me know what you think.

To do something big, people need to be brave. Bravery will bring them success and accomplishment in life. Without bravery, they will fail at the first step. That is because fear obstructs the way to success and accomplishment. There is a Zen story, which explains this well. Here is the story:

There once lived a Zen Master, who lived alone on a far off island. From time to time, he came to the mainland to get some necessities. People always donated to him his basic requisites and invited him back to stay in the town again. He said that the island was a good place for him to learn Dhamma and do meditation.

Once a group of young people asked him whether he was afraid of ghosts, or anything, living alone on the island. He answered them, "There is no ghost out there. Fear is in your mind. You need to learn to know your mind. Otherwise your untrained mind will delude you, or it will create fear for you, or worry, or anxiety and so on" They asked him what enabled him to be brave. He replied, "Wisdom enables me to be brave. Wisdom is the weapon which enables me to overcome all obstacles in my life". He continued: "Do you know that all people need to have bravery in their life? For instance, not being afraid of death is the bravery of soldiers; not being afraid of fierce animals is the bravery of hunters; not being afraid of desires is the bravery of monks. And the weapon for all these people to fight with is wisdom. If they have wisdom, it enables them to overcome all obstacles in life" They all understood what the Master said, and confirmed this to him, by stating: "We can see that wisdom is so beneficial to all living beings."

We, too, surely must agree that there is absolutely no doubt about this. In life if we lack wisdom, we will live our life in danger. Wisdom, therefore, is so necessary in life. With wisdom, we know that everything is going to be fine. All problems can be resolved by wisdom. One aspect of wisdom is that it is sharp, as it can cut off everything, even rebirth, which is very difficult to cut.

Be brave and wise in living your life and then everything will be OK. Let us constantly ask ourselves whether we are brave enough to face the realities of life, all of those problems we have. If we are not brave enough, the task is to learn to be brave. Wisdom, too, will also encourage us to face all of life’s problems.

dday, our bravery is to stand up for ourselves at the risk of losing the our spouse. Our wisdom is knowing we will be alright without our them. Be well dday, be strong



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Thanks mutatio. Yes I can get something from this story. Wisdom, to me in this case, is learning and knowing myself. I am working on that. I have tried to train myself to name what I am feeling, not let it control me, find why I feel that way, and let go of it. It's a start.

Brave. That is such a coincidence that I hear that thus morning. My grandma said something similar about finally being brave enough to face things and not run from them. And to quit being such a worrier.

I will be the best dad I can. I still love my W, but I need to pull away. I need to do it with love. I need to find out how to do it.


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I am grateful for my boys. They even said to me that they want to stay with me. Makes me feel like I am doing some good with them. I wasn't the best dad a couple years ago, but no one will be able to say that now!

I am grateful for my extended family. They have helped me more than they can know. Cousins, uncles, grandparents, etc. They are all a big help.

I am grateful for friends. Had one drop by out of the blue last weekend. Hadn't seen him in 10 years. Have another one coming this afternoon that I haven't seen in years. (Both of them were groomsmen in my wedding, coincidence?) I was told that other common friends are talking about us in town, saying that they don't get this, and are sure we will get back together. That feeling is fading for me.

Seriously, if anyone can tell me how to do dark while having kids, I need to do it. I can't let go with her sitting near me.


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Quote:
I can't let go with her sitting near me.


Yes, you can. But you have to figure out how you do that.

You're not letting go of her because you don't have her. You're letting go of your dependence on her, your pain, and your fear.

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You are right tl2. I don't have a clue how to do it, and it confuses the kids as much as it does me. This stinks.


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You just have to let go. Detach. It's not just about showing no expectations to your W. It's about truly not having any right now.

The marriage is over, and the future is unwritten.

If you don't let go, you are insuring you will be miserable until you do.

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dday, I was feeling like your feeling and then there was a change. Small and subtle, I noticed I was tired of the sadness. I was tired of it because it was getting me nowhere and nothing was changing. From that feeling it turned to annoyed with her because she was not talking and was not trying. After that I started making contingency plans in case my marriage did blow up. That brought me to here. Now I don't worry about me. I worry about her. Will she ever stop struggling, will she ever seem not depressed. I want to spend my life with her. If I can't I will be fine. That is how I detached. You will do it in small steps, it will creep up on you and then one day, sadly you'll be detached.



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I agree with you mutatio. I worry about my W a lot. And my kids. Something has happened between us, and I can no longer read her. She has became a pretty good actress lately. Making me second guess everything.

I know that everyone tells us to detach. I'm not sure that you do it. I believe a lot of it just happens over time.

In a sick way, I believe her statement of "I don't respect you" is helping me. Making me see things in a different light. It explains how she can do these things to our family. It stems from her not forgiving me over a comment made during a drunken argument years ago. I can't regain her respect unless she forgives. The comment has made me look at her actions differently, and the timing of everything. I see now, finally, that she isn't ready to work on us because she isn't done working on her.


I have to give her back the divorce paperwork, with my notes. I was supposed to Wednesday, but I didn't want to ruin thanksgiving for anyone. The last 14 years together comes down to 7 pages. Painful


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Quote:
I can't regain her respect unless she forgives.


Exactly. It sounds to me like you've made changes worthy of respect from your W. If she refuses it's on her. I know that doesn't make you feel better. My STBX still brings up minor stuff I did decades ago as justification for whatever she wants. Sorry you have to go through that cause I know it's no fun.

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Thanks tl2. The forgiveness and respect correlation is simple, but has been out of my grasp for some reason. I too have had things brought up from before kids. Things I have forgotten about. Things I didn't know bugged her. Part of that is on me, part on her. Justification is exactly right.

I DO respect myself now. I am fighting an honorable fight. I have bettered myself. It is worth it. Most people give up, but not those of us here. Even if I can't have a future R, I will be a better person because of this. For me. For my boys. And for whoever I share the rest of my life with.


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Originally Posted By: dday

I DO respect myself now. I am fighting an honorable fight. I have bettered myself. It is worth it. Most people give up, but not those of us here. Even if I can't have a future R, I will be a better person because of this. For me. For my boys. And for whoever I share the rest of my life with.


That's magic dday. There's something that changes us that comes from fighting a fight we probably won't win. It's noble, no matter what brought us here in the first place, our own mistakes or our spouse's. Keep letting it change you for the better.

Trust in this process, the near violent levels of self improvement needed. Rd passed something on to me that I'll pass on to you as well. "You've become an H only a fool would leave, now what does that make your W?"

Keep working, day in, day out. Good things lie ahead.

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Thanks pp! I am far from perfect, but I do believe that I am someone only a fool would leave. We've had a comfortable life, and I think we both took things for granted. I will keep working on me, and hope she catches up someday.


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At some point I stopped fearing the end of my marriage and the loss of my wife. It was no longer my primary motivation.

I now am driven to be the best man I can be, for me. This is what I want for myself. This puts the fire in my belly.

What is dday's motivation?



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That is a great question mutatio. I love my boys and want to give them the best. Splitting up will/has put a huge dent in their lives. Not destroyed, but damaged. I want to do right by them and make them happy and proud.

Also, I know that I have done everything I knew to do to try and save my M. That means a lot to me. I miss W, my home, my dog, waking up and my whole world is safe and secure under the same roof.

So, my motivations are my boys and my own pride. I want to be the best I can be for myself, and the boys.


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Your pride and integrity will be the engine to help you detach. Of course your boys are additional motivation but you want the best for them in any circumstance. Your motivation to fight the good fight and to do the right thing is internal.

When the next weak moment happens, we all have them, try to use your pride. Pride is powerful, it is so powerful it is one of the seven deadly sins. Your on a righteous crusade so you'll be fine. Reach down and find strength in your pride while trying to detach. Small steps forward add up in the end and get you where you need to be. Be strong



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Thanks mu. I have to give her back the papers soon, I am sure that will be a weak moment. I'll try to be strong, but this is the worst thing I have ever been through. I wouldn't wish this on an enemy.

I have to balance protecting myself with giving us the best chance for R.


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Dday -
I truly think that your best chance at reconciliation IS to protect yourself. There is no 'balancing' to do. The whole 'don't make her too upset' thing just doesn't mean anything. Look at the damage that they do....and we go around thinking that if we don't make them toooooo upset, that they'll change their mind.

Ultimately, worry and focus on what you think is best for your kids. Otherwise, give her the things you can and fight for what you NEED.

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Thanks az. I know now that she has to forgive me for everything before we can ever approach r. By everything, I mean what really transpired, and her rewritten version too. As far as the splitting goes, I could be happy with either side of my proposal. Column a or b. I am going for equal. I don't want to screw her, financially, but I don't want screwed either...financially


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Nothing wrong with protecting yourself financially and I wouldn't worry about the balance in that regard either. Yes it is important in some cases, but like Azzork said you do whats best for you and the kids and take what you need. You never want to just cause an argument for no reason, but don't let it go at the expense of protecting yourself.

An example would be having a huge blow up fight over who gets the nice spatula from the kitchen. Avoidable and pointless, it can be replaced easily. Now the other side is caving where she wants 80% of the finances and leaves you with 20%, you stand your ground on that one.

But if it ends up being 52%/48%, who really cares.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
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Thanks fogg.

This is just so depressing to do. Feeling very lonely today. Wish I could go back to sleep for a few hours. Historically this weekend for us Luke most everyone was decorating the house, cutting down a tree, etc. Today, it's just me and a tv. Rough one


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Anyone you can reach out to dday? Any way that you can make today into a good one?

It's one of the hardest battles we face on the DB journey - making lemonade out of pile of (censored)!

What do you think? Is there anything you can do for yourself so at the end of the day you can say, "Today was going to be awful but I have this small win in my back pocket now?"

I hope so.

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W wants me to put papers in the mailbox while she is out today. Yuck. Should I leave a note with it, or just let it be? She knows how I feel, so I doubt a note would help anything.


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Originally Posted By: dday
She knows how I feel, so I doubt a note would help anything.


Sounds like you know the answer to this one already.

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Kinda what I was thinking. Still looking for the magic potion here, I guess.


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What EXACTLY would you say?

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That I am sorry for my part in our M having problems. That the past doesn't have to stop us from having a future. I miss her. I love her. That if she wants a r, then she should try. Not worry about what anybody says or thinks. Or whatever may be holding her back.


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And what if she's thinking..."He misses me but I don't miss him right now. He loves me but I don't love him right now. I can't see myself in a future with him which is why I filed D and he is ignoring what I clearly want."

Will what you said bring her closer, or push her farther away?

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Originally Posted By: dday
That I am sorry for my part in our M having problems. That the past doesn't have to stop us from having a future. I miss her. I love her. That if she wants a r, then she should try. Not worry about what anybody says or thinks. Or whatever may be holding her back.


Is any of this stuff she doesn't know?

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You are both right. She knows all this.

Thanks

Now, back to loving her from a distance while she is still walking away. Have to find out how to do that. I feel like I am either cold or "friends". I want neither.


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I came to a point where I realized I could leave the gate open but it was time to start walking my own best path into my own best future.

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As Sandi keeps pointing out, WW has to feel the loss to come out of the fog. (WW after her respect comment, not A) W has to feel that she is losing me. How do you portray that without being mean, insensitive etc. How do you get to that point? I am much less infatuated and obsessed with her. She isn't the same woman right now.

I do want to reconcile, but she has work to do. She knows that I want to be together. How do I let her know that I can be ok without her, and have a future with or without her in it?


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Tl2, you may have answered while I was still ttping


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Ha well I was posting when you were. So here's a follow up.

The way you let her know you'll be ok without her is to be ok without her. The way you let her know you have a future regardless of her choice is to start walking your own best path into your own best future.

How I do that: I make my decisions for me and the kids. I don't worry about how it affects her. I let her go because I have no control over what she does...not with my thoughts, my decisions, my feelings, or my desires.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm only saying it's been worth it. As for her, she knows where I am. The gate is open if she decides to go there and find me. So far in my case that is not what she has chosen. The D will likely be final at the end of December or in early January.

As the prayer goes, I intend to make 2016 a year where I change what I can, accept what I can't, and pray for and acquire all the wisdom I can get to help me know the difference. And be there for my boys.

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Thanks tl2, THAT all sounds doable. It doesn't seem so daunting when you break it down to small chunks.

So, here goes some ideas:

Work, about as stable as can be in this economy, pays well for the area, not much chance to get a promotion but I'd I get the chance I may try.

Church, need to get back in the habit of going

IC, I go most every week and it helps me

House and vehicle will both be upgraded whenever this is all settled and I see where my finances are

Boys. Be there for them whenever I can. Help with their homework when I have a chance, play with them, coach them, love them, teach them.

GAL, going to DC next weekend. Not much else planned after that


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Great start. What kind of work do you do?

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I'm in a steel mill


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So the work it stable...being involved at church will add stability and regularity for the kids I would think. IC helps you with your personal stability.

And you're the one being stable for the kids.

I read a book once and forgot everything (including the title!) that was in it except for one quote that went something like this: "Marriage is not as much about finding the right person as it is about being the right person."

I think it fits nicely with 'be the kind of person only a fool would leave.'

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Tl2, I like that quote. And it's true.


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Something else from this week. W complained that I didn't answer the calls that were supposed to be from S7. I only have 1 listed on my phone, and I was in the L office. Then, today she tells me that her parents were coming over this afternoon. Don't know why she told me that. And, in my mind, her parents probably came over to do the decorating and take my place. That thinking gets me nowhere, but that is where my head is.


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dday,

Yeah but the great thing is you get to make a decision about where your head is going to be. Use that power!

In my M, my W and I went through a very bad period for a few years where my job was a dead end, we were in tens of thousands of dollars of debt, etc.

It took a while, but I buckled down...had to give up some family time and activities, but I successfully learned a new career, worked very hard and advanced quickly (took a couple calculated risks as well as getting lucky), and in the end got a better job in a better town with better schools. Got all the debt paid off (no bankruptcy!) by moonlighting and got us into a nicer house.

To this day I have never gotten any sincere expressions of appreciation for any of that from her. A few years back we ended up in an argument and she supported her claim that I don't follow through on anything by criticizing me for not having cut down a tree in the backyard that I wanted down. I said, what about all the debt, career changes, house, etc.? Why do you always find something wrong with me instead of looking at the good things I've done/am doing?

She had no answer. She did not apologize. She just quit talking about it...she's very passive-aggressive.

But in the end, if all they do is criticize and all they see are negatives...and even have to make non-issues into major negatives...that tells you exactly where their heads are at.

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see, bro.

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Thanks tl2, I worked tons of OT over the last few years. Paid off everything by the time we were 32. Nice home, 2 decent cars, etc. Then we moved to a bigger house in a town we wanted to be in. She has a brand new ride, I gave mine up since I was commuting and bought a little car.

After all of that, she is mad that I have worked so much and missed out on things at home. I never missed a ballgame. Missed 1 church program when I was sick. But that is what is remembered right now.

So, I too have sacrificed, and was penalized for it. I have been demonized. I have definately screwed up over the years, but it was little things that apparently added up. My W is passive aggressive too. We would have a big blowup once or twice a year instead of a conversation when the little stuff happened.

That is why I am here. The biannual arguments, according to her, made her fall out of love.


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Well that's pretty interesting. Many similarities between your sitch and mine...and your W and mine.

I think you're a good guy. None of us is perfect. She isn't either and has some issues of her own to deal with.

You have done right by your family. Your kids are still young and you haven't missed out on much. And you've given them a good, nice, safe life. Lots of life still ahead.

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Also at different times I've been told "I didn't love you or want to marry you when I did"..."I used to love you but you killed it for me"...and everyone's fave, ILYBINILWY.

We just have to release them to what they think they want right now. It's their journey.

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Exactly, and the future is uncertain. But that is always the case. My ic/priest told me that whatever she is going through could have started years before she met me. That thought had never occurred to me. Doesn't change anything, but it could be the truth.

And I have heard those lines too. It's their journey, you are right.

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We have S8 travel basketball tonight. I haven't heard from W since I dropped off my changes to the settlement proposal. I'm sure that she didn't take it well, as it's the first time that I have stood up for myself in months. So there will be, I assume, tension. I didn't ask for anything unfair, I just can't roll over and let her take everything either. I still hope to find the woman I married someday, but the more I look the more I notice that she is gone. I sure hope she comes back. I'd cut off an arm to have that girl back, not so much with what she's become though.


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I am pretty nervous about tonight. Again, I feel I asked for what is fair. I hope this doesn't turn ugly, because I stood up for myself and my boys. Hard to have a today, as this just stinks.


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Originally Posted By: dday
I hope this doesn't turn ugly

Yeah. For sure.

But, remember that it wont be because of you. Im sure she is going to fight you on something....mostly, just because she can.

This is not about you.

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If she's like my W and you're like me, she's used to getting her way with you, and knows how to push your buttons.

If it were me, and she tried to engage that, I'd simply ask her what she would like to see, and respond with nothing more than something like, "Since this is such an important decision with long-term consequences, I will think about it, talk with my attorney/advisors/whomever, and get back to you."

Even if you want to agree with her or actually do, I would say and do nothing, and commit to nothing.

That might also be a good 180 for you. The way you show her you will be ok without her in the future is to accept that, based on the current situation, your future does not include her so you are making the best decisions for you and the kids.

Keep to the high road. Lead. I hope it doesn't turn ugly too but if it does, be cool, detached, and calm and it will ultimately work out for the best for you.

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Thanks guys. There is always the .00001% chance that my standing up for myself may help to bring her out of the fog. I'm not betting on it though. She is VERY used to getting her way on things. Especially since BD when I went into super H mode.

Most of the changes I proposed were minor, a couple words here and there. The one she will scream about is that I want bought out. It will add to her debt, but that isn't my problem. She wants me to just give her everything. That isn't fair to my kids either, I have them 3 days a week and they need a nice place to live too.

For some reason, I have the urge to tell W that although I do not want a D, I do not want her to be unhappy and if she is truly happy without me, then I will not stand in her way. Also, I would like to ask her to promise me if she changes her mind to tell me. Forget pride or whatever. I would think that she would, the old W would, if nothing more than for the sake of the boys.

Time will tell.


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Originally Posted By: dday
Thanks guys. There is always the .00001% chance that my standing up for myself may help to bring her out of the fog.

Who knows. I wouldnt worry about it.

Originally Posted By: dday
Most of the changes I proposed were minor, a couple words here and there. The one she will scream about is that I want bought out. It will add to her debt, but that isn't my problem. She wants me to just give her everything. That isn't fair to my kids either, I have them 3 days a week and they need a nice place to live too.

Why would she POSSIBLY deserve to have 100% equity in the house? Let her scream.

Originally Posted By: dday
For some reason, I have the urge to tell W that although I do not want a D, I do not want her to be unhappy and if she is truly happy without me, then I will not stand in her way.

Here's the thing. Of COURSE shes going to say shes happy right now. So telling her this right NOW is a total waste. It will just make you look weak. Until she really looks inside, she isnt going to "be truly happy". She thinks happiness is something you can FIND, not something you CULTIVATE. Say this with your actions; your words will only push her away.

Originally Posted By: dday
Also, I would like to ask her to promise me if she changes her mind to tell me. Forget pride or whatever. I would think that she would, the old W would, if nothing more than for the sake of the boys.

That rope getting heavy?

Why make her promise that? By the time she might be ready, who knows where you will be. If she WANTS to be with you, she will seek it out. Dont worry.

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Thanks az. I keep thinking that pride will do things to keep her away. Yes, that rope is heavy, and restrictive! I also feel like this still isnt the end. But I think this line of thought hurts me more than it helps me somedays


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Stick to your guns.

Quote:
For some reason, I have the urge to tell W that although I do not want a D, I do not want her to be unhappy and if she is truly happy without me, then I will not stand in her way. Also, I would like to ask her to promise me if she changes her mind to tell me.


Well it's not about pride. It's about not pursuing and pushing her away. That's still relationship talk, and is generally a no-no. Honestly (and I only think this because I've done this too) I think you're still thinking along the lines of, "If I just come up with the right combination of words, she will magically see the light...and if I don't get them out there before it's too late, I will have blown my chance."

Which means you still have a lot of detaching to do, and you're not fully accepting that it's not about you. I don't think it hurts to say some of those things, but I don't think you really mean them. If she changes her mind, she will tell you.

Keep it to "just the facts, ma'am" unless she explicitly and definitively says she wants to work on the M and suspend the D.

Resist the urge.

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^^ good points by Azzork. Dday, believe me I've been through enough urges to tell W something, still do. These things come out on their own or they don't need to be said. Right now your W is going to say she's happy withour you and there is nothing you can do about that. You try and fight it and all your doing is cementing the idea in her mins that your the problem. A problem that she will continue to look at and want to run to away from to find her happiness. Get out of her way in that regard and let her see where it leads.

Please, please do not ask her to tell you if she ever changes her mind. It makes it look like you can't live without her and will wait around for her forever. The attitude you need to move toward (without needing to tell her but through your actions) is that while you love her you recognize your value as a man and are moving forward with your life and if D is what she wants she can have it. That you will be fine. You said it before so don't feel the need to say it over and over.

Another point, don't think you will be the one to break through her fog. You can do everything perfect and it mean nothing. Your actions may influence it but it breaking will be mostly dependent on her and will happen on her time frame, if at all. Her path, remember that.


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Ok, I am having an issue with being cold. W acted almost normal, except she didn't sit beside me. Left another parent in between us, but I was up taking s4 to the bathroom when she got there. So I guess it was me that put in a buffer.

Boys told me that W parents met them at the tree farm and cut down a tree with them. That hurts a lot. She is using them to fill in for me a lot these days. Maybe it helps the boys cope? I just feel discarded and replaced.


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You're very keyed in on every little thing she does/doesn't do. My parents call it being in an "obsessive-compulsive loop". It doesn't help you. What it says to me is you're looking for any little sign that you can pin your secret hopes on. Again, not helping you. I only think that because I've done the exact same thing. It only insures more continued suffering than is necessary because we do it to ourselves.

Xmas is family time. They did the tree thing with their mom and grandparents. You can choose to be glad the kids have extended family to support and love them through these times they have no control over.

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I agree with tl2 up there.

You've GOT to stop checking out every little thing W does or says or thinks or doesn't do or doesn't say or doesn't think. The best way to not think about W is to keep your brain occupied with something else. When you were listing grateful things, I urged you to try to find new things to be grateful about besides listing just things about your kids. It's time to expand your circle. It's time to really grow OUT.

You'll get there. I know you will.

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tl2, you are right. I do have hopes, and I let them build up an expectation. I would love for that to not happen, but I haven't yet figured out how. I will try to look at the inlaws, who are trying to help, as just that. Trying to make a bad sitch a little less painful on my kids. (they mentioned that nanny wasn't as much fun as me doing the tradition, which is selfishly kinda nice)

Az, I would also love to not watch my W. But I haven't discovered how yet. I need to get into the habit of listing again too. It seemed to help put a good start to my day.

__________________________________________
I am grateful for my sis coming over and putting a goofy christmas tree on my wall. Kids love it.

My coworker warning me about the speedtrap near work this morning!

Going on a mini vacay this weekend. Haven't done anything for just me in a long time


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Originally Posted By: dday
I would also love to not watch my W. But I haven't discovered how yet.


Here's my opinion...from the post I just left you:
Originally Posted By: Azzork
The best way to not think about W is to keep your brain occupied with something else.


And not just ANYTHING else. But new, exciting, fun stuff. Going to football games and mini-vacations is a great start. But I want to hear about NEW things you are doing. NEW experiences that you are having. Can you join a meetup or some other kind of group? How can you make NEW friends?

The biggest thing for me was that when I was married, all of my friends were really XW's friends who kind of became my friends through her. So, they always considered me as my ex's husband. But since BD, I've gone out and made new friends that know me as "Azzork" and just know that I have an XW. But they like me because of who I AM, not who I KNOW.

Through that process, I gained so much self-confidence, companionship, self-respect, faith, hope...you name it. Once you start getting all of that stuff back, it's easy to not worry so much about your W, because you see that that relationship just isnt that important.

In my opinion, you seem, almost, scared to take that step. Like you cant let go, due to the fear that she wont come back.

Lose the fear. Let go.

Jump.

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dday,

All of us here have either been in your shoes or are still in your shoes. I'm going to give you the advice I need to give myself right now.

You are strong and can do this. Not just for yourself but for your children. But mostly for yourself.

Azz had some great things to say up there. Read and reflect about what you can do to cultivate your own happiness and stop doing things that steer you away from that path. Just as your wife is on her own path, so are you. Choose the destination you want to journey toward and focus on that.


Me-38 W-38; T-15 M-12;
S10 and S6
BD - July 2016; EA confirmed; confronted Aug 2015
EA dissolved 12/2016

Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option - Maya Angelou
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d,

You just make a choice and do it. There is no secret aside from forcing yourself to not go there. Like any other activity/habit/muscle...the more you do it, the easier it gets to do.

I suspect that if you're anything like me, you're making excuses re: "don't know how to do that". It's not about not knowing how.

I'm guessing (just guessing!) that the truth is more like, You don't want to let go, therefore you're not.

Again, not trying to be harsh...but I've been there/done that so I know how it hurts and how it feels.

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Thanks guys. I will check out meetup stuff, never heard of it until I got here. All of OUR friends are married, and since this have kinda shunned both of us. I am not blaming, just saying. I am very scared that she won't come back, that is true. But I don't think that getting a life will prevent that in the least. It may even help. I will do some looking. At least you all have my mind going in a different direction now.


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My thought for the day for myself: in order to be walked on, you have to be lying down.

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Quote:
My thought for the day for myself: in order to be walked on, you have to be lying down.


That's why the LBH has to make sure he is standing up tall to his WW. wink

I like that thought, tl2.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Well, I am getting off work at a decent time today. I'm gonna go get a haircut, and let the barber/stylist do whatever they think would look good. A new look may do me some good.


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Dday, nothing new to add, just catching up on your thread and want to say I am in the same position. Trying very hard to detach. I had it the other day, several hours where I was just so detached, and it was the best feeling. Since then the attachment has crept back in, but not yet to the point where it was before. I think it is a process and it takes time, so don't be so hard on yourself. Sounds like you are off to a good start.
Be well!



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Thanks pho. I haven't yet gotten to the point that I don't wonder what her response will be to xyz. I need to get there, and I know it. I feel closer to it, but still can't get my hands on it. Doing the D paperwork has moved it closer though.

Can someone do some voodoo thing on me so I can drop this dang rope! I would love to have a day of normal thoughts!


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dday,

Went and saw my IC today. We did our usual gut-check: am I handling things better than I was three or four weeks ago? From my perspective and his.

So that's my question for you...are you doing better than 4 weeks ago? If not, prob need to figure out why.

The pain and anger and stuff isn't going to go away anytime soon. The question is...how best to deal with it constructively for oneself and the kids, and how best to keep from using it as an excuse to say and do things we know don't work.

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Tl2, better than 4 weeks ago...no. Better than last week, yes. 2 weeks ago I thought things were getting better, expectations right? Then I got another bd. Since then pma has sucked. Now, went and got my haircut, had a peptalk from a buddy at work (afterwords I started whistling a song). Have dinner plans with sis tomorrow (her H just called and invited me), and cousin just invites me to go to a ballgame with them at the school. So I am cleaned, fed, and ready to go. It will be good to go see everyone and not have W there. Kinda weirdly excited. Ic tomorrow night too. Boys Thursday thru Sunday at church, then off to DC to go fishing and sightseeing. Week is shaping up well


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This evening, I have been thinking that I may want the house after all. I had been thinking that without W, it wasn't our dream home. I may need to reconsider that. I hunt, fish, work in the garage, garden, and enjoyed that property with my boys too. I may want to buy her out of it, and let her leave the family home. I am not the one leaving the marriage, and the boys love it there and would still be there 3 days a week with me.

Thoughts?


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Hi dday, you said "Can someone do some voodoo thing on me so I can drop this dang rope! I would love to have a day of normal thoughts!". I found a story that might help. I may have posted it on your thread but since your struggling to detach, I'll post it.

A Sufi teaching tells of the man who visited a great mystic to find out how to let go of his chains of attachment and his prejudices. Instead of answering him directly, the mystic jumped to his feet and bolted to a nearby pillar, flung his arms around it, grasping the marble surface as he screamed, "Save me from this pillar! Save me from this pillar!"
The man who had asked the question could not believe what he saw. He thought the mystic was mad. The shouting soon brought a crowd of people. "Why are you doing that?" the man asked. "I came to you to ask a spiritual question because I thought you were wise, but obviously you're crazy. You are holding the pillar, the pillar is not holding you. You can simply let go."
The mystic let go of the pillar and said to the man, "If you can understand that, you have your answer. Your chains of attachment are not holding you, you are holding them. You can simply let go."

I also read this: "This means living in a way that instead of keeping this image of your spouse in your mind and falling in love with that image, consequently running into problems when that image changes, you let them free and accept them fully for who they are in each moment no matter what changes."

dday accept the changes in you wife, accept who she is now.
Let go of the pillar dday.



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If its something you can afford financially then I see nothing wrong with it. Its a good mindset shift to see the houses potential for you and the kids instead of the failed dream house with W.


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Mutatio,
Thank you. That was great.

dday,
Keep on keeping on. as the mystic said "you have the answer"
posting this for my own therapy as well.


Me 40
WW 41
D 4
S 12
S 14
BD 6.16.2015
W stopped wearing ring 9.4.15
W Filed Divorce 9.14.15
My ring off 11.15.15
D finalized 12.18.15
WXW (wayward X wife) moved out 1.28.16 got her own place

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Thanks mu! I love that story. I completely agree. Now to do it! I'm going to keep working on this


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You guys are awesome. We need a dB poker night. If I do end up with my big farmhouse back, you are all welcome to come play some cards.

Fogg, if I trade her the retirement for the house, it will pretty much be paid off. And, I would get my dog back!


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Originally Posted By: dday
I haven't yet gotten to the point that I don't wonder what her response will be to xyz.


Just so that we're clear, it's OK to wonder what her response will be to something.

What you want to avoid is choosing your actions based on the response you expect or hope you will get.

For example:
Decision - does dday make change X to the separation agreement?
Choice A - do nothing. W is likely happy. Dday loses money or time or something.
Choice B - propose change.

Its likely that she will be upset or that a fight will start if you choose option B. But you think it's best for you and the boys, so you choose to do option B. This is the goal. Now that youve made that choice, it's ok to wonder what her reaction will be and how this could affect other things going forward.

What is NOT ok is to choose option A, because ou want to avoid a fight or because you hope to make her happy.

You do the first thing enough times, eventually, you stop caring what her reaction is.

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Ok Az, that is something that I am finally starting to do. I returned her proposal with a whole lot of ink and highlighter on it. Since then, she hasn't mentioned it. And, I am starting to think that I want to keep the house. I like it there. The boys like it there. And, she can have a little change/loss in her life too. I don't like that I just feel like they are living my life without me in it. I could return a large chunk of my normalcy and my hobbies would be returned to me. And, have my dog back!


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Priest had to cancel last night, sick parishioners. Feeling conflicted, I guess. One moment I am all wrapped up in this sitch again. Then the next I feel a bit better.

I am trying to go through bits of why I have trouble letting go. W was the girl I was with when dad passed away. W is the only one I will have kids with. W is actually the only woman I have been with (tried to save myself for m). I see her a few times a week, kid swaps and sports, etc.

All of this, I can't find with anyone else. I know there is more to life than these things, true. I still love the W of the first 10+ years, not the last couple.

I am starting to get better. It is her loss, as much as mine. But I did not give up. I can go through life knowing that I fought until the end. I will never look at my kids and say I should have tried harder. One day, I hope she realizes what she has left behind. Maybe I will be waiting for her, maybe not.

I truly hope she finds whatever makes her happy. If it honestly is me holding her back, then I want to be out of her way. I pray that she realizes that she WANTS to be with me. But my prayer now includes God, you know what's best... here is what I want, but I know it's not up to me now. That is a shift.

I need to drop this rope, and keep moving forward. I'm scared, I guess. Feels like quitting.


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Also, this morning, for whatever reason, I am seeing more of my W faults. I know that no one is perfect, but after trying for so long to get her back I put her on a pedestal. That is eroding, and she is coming back down to human status.

I have been bothered by her seemingly pma. But the more I have stepped back and looked at it, she is never allowing herself to be alone. As soon as she gets in a car she is on the phone. And walks into the ballgames on the phone. Maybe she isn't adjusting as well as I thought. Doesn't really matter, but I don't feel quite so disposable.


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Let me ask you this: Was the 'old wife' you want back and who you originally met attracted to someone who was clinging to her every word or action? Or was she attracted to you when you were independent and doing your thing?

Dropping the rope and moving forward isn't quitting on the marriage. It takes 2 to make the marriage work and she's the one walking away right now.

But allowing yourself to turn into a pile of mush IS QUITTING ON YOURSELF. And you're not any good to a marriage, to kids, to potential mates, to yourself... if you've quit on yourself.

Growth is painful but the result is necessary.

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Priest had to cancel last night, sick parishioners. Feeling conflicted, I guess. One moment I am all wrapped up in this sitch again. Then the next I feel a bit better.
Thats OK. Over time, you will notice that there are longer gaps, and the time you are "wrapped up" will start to shorten.

I am trying to go through bits of why I have trouble letting go.
- W was the girl I was with when dad passed away. Hmmm. I dont have much experience with this. Do you think that moment is a key part of your time together?
- W is the only one I will have kids with. Maybe. Shes the only one you HAVE kids with at this point. But you never know in the future. You could D and then find someone that has her own kid(s). Or, you might decide you want another one!
- W is actually the only woman I have been with (tried to save myself for m). This was the same for me. If you read my thread, you can see Ive been with someone new for a month or so now. Honestly, I thought this was going to be a MUCH bigger deal to me than it was in reality. I had a lot of emotional stock built up into the singular sexual relationship I had with XW. But when I was with someone else, I wasnt thinking about that at ALL. But of course, YMMV.
I see her a few times a week, kid swaps and sports, etc. How can you reduce this? Can kid swaps happen based on drop-off/pick-up from school?

All of this, I can't find with anyone else. Come on, now. Yes, you wont be able to recreate previous moments with someone else. But you can CERTAINLY find someone else that will find fulfilling.
I know there is more to life than these things, true. I still love the W of the first 10+ years, not the last couple. I understand. Unfortunately, that previous W is dead. Theres no reason to hang around waiting for her to "come back".

I am starting to get better. It is her loss, as much as mine. But I did not give up. I can go through life knowing that I fought until the end. I will never look at my kids and say I should have tried harder. Yep. Hold your head high.
One day, I hope she realizes what she has left behind. She might. She might not. By the time she does, you likely wont care.
Maybe I will be waiting for her, maybe not. Why are you even waiting NOW?

I truly hope she finds whatever makes her happy. Nope. She isnt going to 'find' it anywhere. Unless she starts looking inwards. Hopefully, for her sake, she does.
If it honestly is me holding her back, then I want to be out of her way. Again, nope. It is not about you at all. Yes, get out of her way. Let her do her thing. But its not about you. Never was. Never will be.
I pray that she realizes that she WANTS to be with me. But my prayer now includes God, you know what's best... here is what I want, but I know it's not up to me now. That is a shift. Good. I dont know much about prayer. But how can you shift further so that you are focusing on just you and your boys?

I need to drop this rope, and keep moving forward. I'm scared, I guess. Feels like quitting.
Id be lying if I said I havent struggled with this concept. Ultimately, youre not quitting. How long can you sit and look at an open door to see if someone is going to walk through it? At what point will you allow yourself to do something else? a day? a month? a year? 10 years? 50 years? Do you really want to give up the rest of your life to watching this door and hoping she decides to walk back through it? Even if you did and she did, do you think she would respect you for it?

It's not quitting. It's living your life. How long are you going to live your life for her?

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tl2, I was doing my own thing of course! Of course all of my buddies were in similar positions in their lives too, dating and no kids. Not so much now. I have one friend (the one in DC) that has been through this, so I have been picking his brain.

az, I was just talking to my preacher friend about letting go. I have realized more today that this is all about her. This spring, between BD and S, W was unhappy with me, wanted a new car-and got it after I hit a deer in hers, wanted a baby-which she denies ever saying, wanted a boob job. Went from being a people pleaser to not lifting a finger, which I enabled.

Losing dad, and W being there with me, cemented us together for life in my mind. I wouldn't have made it through without her help. (Almost lost my sis in that wreck). I need to find a way to limit our interactions together. They are always pleasant and I leave asking WTF, why are we splitting up?

I'm afraid that I have tied letting go with quitting. I have to separate the two. She has quit. I am still standing, but my legs are tired. I need to live for myself and boys. Time to be selfish for a bit and have some fun. Meetups here aren't much of an option, very limited. I will have to keep my eyes open though.


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If you can learn how to embrace the change (which doesn't mean you have to be happy about it or that you're not sad about her choices), I have found that it makes me stronger and as a result it makes everything a bit easier.

I kind of look at it like I am on a boat and the captain had a heart attack or something and the boat is drifting aimlessly toward the rocks, etc. Either nobody else is around or none of them are doing anything.

You realize you have to grab the wheel and the throttle and take charge of your direction else you and everyone else are in a very tight spot. So you take the controls and do what you can. Maybe you already know how to handle a boat. Maybe you're learning on the fly because someone has to do it. Either way, it's the situation you're in and you're only choice is what to do about it because you can't go back in time and you're not superman and can't just fly off or pick up the boat and fly it to shore.

It doesn't mean you're happy to be there holding the wheel. It only means that sitting there and being upset about the situation without doing what is required helps nobody at best, and hurts everyone at worst.

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Quote:
Losing dad, and W being there with me, cemented us together for life in my mind.


I think you need counseling for this ^^ issue. I'm sure it was very traumatic for you, but what if it had been a guy that had helped you through it? Would you have felt cemented for life with him? What if it had been a married woman, instead of this girl that helped you?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Sandi, I am already doing counseling. That is one of the issues we do talk about. Thanks though. And, the friends that helped me through it are still the closest ones I have.

Thanks


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Did kid pickup tonight. Shortest one ever. I pulled in the drive and there is a truck there too. At first I was extremely hot. Then, I decided that I am not going to let it bother me, she is free to do as she wishes... I have no control. I walk up and the boys run out and W hands me clothes, backpacks, etc. First words out of her mouth are "that's neighbor girls new truck, she's been babysitting s4". I didn't ask, and wasn't going to.

I asked nothing, put stuff in the trunk and got in the car. Tonight, I actually felt nothing for her at all, good or bad. Like seeing a neighbor. I know I need to be like this, but I hate it at the same time.

My conversation with my preacher friend at work helped me today. I told him that I hate letting go of her, because I'm afraid it will be shutting the door. He said that I won't shut the door until she does something I can't forgive, or I meet someone new. And then it won't matter. I really appreciated that. It sunk in.

That talk, and the thinking of my W actions this summer, towards D and her erratic behavior and thoughts, are helping me tons today. I can finally look at this as her problem. Not saying I did no wrong, not at all. But I fixed all the issues she had with me, and I am still working on bettering myself. W has admitted that she can't get over things. Nothing more I can do, she is the one who won't try and forgive. One day this spring, I said "I miss you." She replied "I miss me too". Didn't realize until today what that really meant.


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Sounds like you knocked that one out of the park. Nice job.

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Is this what detachment will look like? Feeling numb? I had no expectations at all last night. I realize that nothing towards r is going to happen anytime soon. So if it does happen, it's going to be a while. If ever.

I had a dream last night with a girl I used to run around with 15-20 years ago. I was still this age, and felt like I had moved on from W for a chance with her. Not sure what that means, but I seemed happy. Maybe my brain is telling me that I can find someone new? Maybe it's telling me to let go? Maybe I just need to satisfy a craving.

I would love my family whole, and be with a happy W. But If not, there is someone out there that I can share the rest of my life with someday


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Try not to think about how detached you are, its a endless cycle where you might trick yourself into believing you are and then something draws you back in and you have an emotional response. I've had a bunch of disappointments where I did just that. I felt like I was failing or pretending when that detached feeling goes away and I get extremely emotional a few days later. You will have days you feel detached and things don't get to you and you will have days where you want to just cry and mope around.

I think your starting to accept this is whats happening and realizing the road ahead is an extremely long one, one you never imagined taking this long if it ever leads to anything. I think you realize you may not end up with your W and its just the reality of the situation, it makes you feel numb. Your doing fine, all normal parts of this process and you will revisit many different stages at different times.


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Thanks fogg. I didn't know if numb is normal progress or more of a brain self preservation thing. Still don't like the feeling, but it may be healthier than where I had been


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I've felt the numb also, it was more when I really came to accept that life will never be the same and regardless of what happens its going to be a long road ahead. Reconciliation or divorcing, theres going to be alot of pain ahead and healing that needs to be done. I guess it is a bit of self preserving because it all seems impossible to overcome but time(lots of time) will help us through it all.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
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Stay focused on the here and now. Dday, all there is, is now. Work on you in this moment. Be strong



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Thanks for the support guys. This is a tough time of year for this. I'm missing out on family traditions, and that makes me a bit bitter. Trying hard to let go though.

We can all do this, not our choices but we can make the best of it.


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Quote:
Is this what detachment will look like, feeling numb?


Detachment as I understand it is simply achieving enough personal growth that we give up the unhealthy attachments we have to our WAS so that it doesn't impact our mental state in a way that allows us to make desperate, unfruitful, or harmful decisions. It means accepting control of ourselves, and accepting that we can't control anything but our decisions and behaviors.

Just like in every area of life, if you're anything like me, your feelings will change a lot, but the goal is not to base your decisions solely on them or act obsessively/compulsively, but to do what is healthy, right, and what works.

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yeah this is really a lousy time of year for this to be going on. Kids and I are putting up my tree tomorrow, then my W is coming next week to move her stuff out, then I'm signing the papers in a week or 10 days.

The two things I'm constantly telling myself:

1. If you're going through hell, keep going (Churchill)

2. Adapt or die.

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I still have a lot of bonds to W, but I am finally making decisions to better myself and kids. Like the D paperwork, I didn't roll over and let her have everything. She has had the papers for a week now, and hasn't mentioned them at all.

I feel more than ever that I am close to dropping this damned rope. I don't know what I have been waiting for. She isn't coming back anytime soon, if ever. (Sandi is right, it takes way longer than you think) Today, I know it's just today, I really don't miss her. I need to be that way more often. For my mental health.

Boys seem to be doing ok this weekend. Nobody cried yet. I miss them too. Poor guys don't deserve this mess.

But, it's her issues that are driving this now. Nothing I can do but pray for her to get happy with herself. I wish her the best. I'd like to be a part of that, but my existence doesn't hinge on that decision. (Not my decision anyway) I read somewhere that I am living the consequences of someone else's decision. Very true.


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You said "I'm missing out on family traditions, and that makes me a bit bitter".

Why don't you start some new family traditions, just you and the boys.

Eat life Dday, don't let life eat you!



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Well mu, I have my own elf on the shelf now. We have a Christmas tree made of lights on the wall, and the kids think it's awesome. Not really much else planned, but I am open to suggestions.

Every year, I lift one of the boys up and they put the angel on the top of the tree. I asked them who did it this year, and they said mommy. Kinda seemed disappointed


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Hi DDay!

Quote:
But, it's her issues that are driving this now. Nothing I can do but pray for her to get happy with herself. I wish her the best. I'd like to be a part of that, but my existence doesn't hinge on that decision. (Not my decision anyway) I read somewhere that I am living the consequences of someone else's decision. Very true.


Did I ever mention that we are in the same boat? Move over, cause I am right there with you! Interesting revelations from the W - and my own observations - are showing me that my W has so much to overcome before I think she even will attempt to give us another go, if she ever does... I, too, am also living the consequences of someone else's decision. [censored].


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Spiff, I hope you brought bait and poles. I think we are gonna be in this boat awhile.


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