Accepting that I Am Living in a Mad Lib

[HaWho]

Oops- doing this on my iPhone and I goofed. Moving this whole conversation from my old thread!

Okay: new thread. Here is the link to the old one:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2626398#Post2626398

LouR-I am circling you into this thread. I do feel this forcefulness today. I see how hard both these paths are. Honestly, if he walked upstairs this instant and said he is done, I would truly accept it. How different is that from a year ago?!?

And unlike before, I wouldn't see myself as failing because my M folded. I have separated my worth from the status of my marriage. I would feel so bad for my children but I can see that it is him and not all me.

From the get-go I was willing to work like a pack mule. I acknowledged my weaknesses and faults. He told me that day it was all my fault. If he ended the M now, it would be okay because it would mean he still can't lift a finger to work on it.

I know the body issues are transference issues. I get that. But that does not mean he will outgrow it.

[mleigh4]

I am 46 and still get carded. I get mistaken for being in my 20's or 30's all the time. No, I'm not bragging. I am telling you this because I don't think your H is concerned with your aging, I think he is worried about his own, same with my own H. This is not about us, it is about them.

I agree with the others. Your H did overkill with the letter, but I think he was projecting.

I can relate to your wondering if you could ever really have a future with your H, with all the damage done. I will admit, I view my H as a very weak man. Not attractive, and I too wonder if he could ever get my respect back. A strong woman needs a strong man, no? Time shall tell.....I can't wait to see what lies in our futures, we are in this together girlfriend

[HaWho]

Hi Mleigh- thanks for the great support. Right back atcha. I know exactly what you mean about the attractiveness of a man who can maneuver through thick and thin.

Recently, I remembered that a while back, out of the blue (or so it seemed) H expressed awe at how I was able to hold it all together. When I asked what he meant, he said this whole "family thing" came so naturally to me. There was a sadness about him when he said it. This was before BD but obviously he was on the MLC trajectory--I see that in hindsight now. I have tried to remember when he said it but I can't. It could have been 18 months ago or 2 years ago.

Anyway, at that time, I just listened and didn't say anything. But now I see that even then, he was just going through the motions of living. The reality is, it does not "come naturally." Rather, like anything worthwhile, it comes with hard work! I didn't say that because it would have come off as preachy. But, this is a big difference in perspective between us.

This is where those family of origin issues surface. On my side, nearly everyone grinds it out through really tough times. The men on my side are loyal and truly believe in marriage as an institution. I have a cousin who recently divorced (one of the first in the family) and his father truly is struggling with it.

H comes from weak marital stock. It was always bizarre to me. There is an open marriage, a cake eater, and a Peter Pan. And it is a very small family!

[mleigh4]

I too sometimes remember moments when my H would get really overwhelmed with day to day things, and he too would make comments on how I always get it all done. He would almost make fun of how we always would have whatever we needed stocked in the house. There was no running out of milk here!

He too comes from a family of divorce. The one sister is the divorced twice drug problem sister. His mom is on her 3rd unhappy marriage. His dad never remarried and has been alone for 20 years, and scarily enough H has always envied that. His one other sister is still married. She is very religious so that plays a huge part.

I have no siblings, just a divorced twice mom that was a single mom my whole life. Out of 6 cousins, only 1 divorced. None of my 3 aunt's are divorced either. I have pretty much been surrounded by family who work hard to keep their families together and thriving. My H and his family really turned out to be a big disappointment...just saying.

I hope you have a wonderful holiday! What are your plans tomorrow?

[HaWho]

Mleigh- Your h's supposed envy over living alone really cues me that he is depressed. That is not a normal thought process for a non depressed person.

We are going to a restaurant for dinner. I think this is good as the vibe around the house is, well, not so festive, as you can imagine.

H did text me on several occasions today. Some of the texts were home related. Then he asked if I wanted him to bring home pizza for me and what kind. I said yes and thanks. He bought me a whole 18" pizza for just me. (No one else eats the kind I chose.) I was expecting two slices. Geez. Lol!

[mleigh4]

He has shown signs of depression for a long time. His mom told me he has always been depressed. I have always wondered if it could be a chemical imbalance? IDK. I hope he is getting help like he said he was when he moved out.

Your Thanksgiving plans sound nice, let us know how it goes. Looks like H is showing effort lately? That is good too.

Enjoy your pizza, that sounds so good to me right now!!!

[BrightFuture]

Hey HaWho, I’ve been keeping up with your threads all along, just didn’t’ have time to post. I can relate to the family of origin issues. I’m the first one to be divorced in my family and my extended family. Not to say that all family members, including my parent had a happy marriage. They just stuck together, that’s all. This was my H’s reason to live. He said that he didn’t want to be in an unhappy marriage. On the other side, I can’t think of a single person in H’s family who has not been divorced. His words at BD were that he is doing the same thing his Dad did to his Mom, and then “oh well”... He also said that his second brother (my BIL who lives in the same neighborhood with me) had it right – he never got married.

I also keep thinking about that letter your H wrote… I wonder if my H could do something like that too. H had a subscription to Playboy for all his adult life. I realize now that I was always subconsciously competing with these Playboy girls, to make sure I look my best, so H would like me. I look at this different now. I still want to look my best when I want to. But, I’m also more comfortable in my own skin now. Needless to mention that I also realize that I aged in the last three years. But, I’m pretty sure that there is a guy out there who will think that I’m beautiful!

Enjoy your dinner!

[mleigh4]

Bright, I'm not a guy but I think you are beautiful

[HaWho]

Mleigh - at this point your husband is probably losing testosterone to boot. But yes, hopefully he is seeking professional assistance too.

As for my H's recent effort I think it is just a holiday peekout. Once Thanksgiving ends I fully expect him to cloister himself into his safe dorm room. Then I am sure he will swing right back into playing the MLC personality roulette game with me. Lol!

Hi Brightfuture-nice to hear from you! All BDs are weird in their own way, I suppose. But the way your h just said "oh well" over such a huge, life altering decision is cold. The whole MLC script is jaw dropping of course. For months after mine, I felt like I was listenin' to a frat buddy. It was gross. I remember wishing he came with a mute button.

My IC says there are studies showing MLCers show changes in their brain scans. But, I am sure when one grows up seeing couples throwing in the towel left and right, one is desensitized to it.

As for your h's magazines Bright, of course, the women in those magazines are air brushed to the max. After I received the letter, I went to the beach a lot and really looked around. There are no perfect women. Guess what? I didn't see any perfect men either.

Bright-of course there are LOTS of men who would find you very beautiful for LOTS of reasons.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

[HaWho]

I hope all who celebrate the holiday had a nice Thanksgiving.

This is my second Thanksgiving in MLC-land (post BD). Of course, I was in MLC-land three Thanksgivings ago; I just didn't know it. Oddly, even though we were "working" on our M last year I found I am significantly more settled this year. Even though H said he was working on it last year, he wasn't and meanwhile, every day felt like I was auditioning for a part as his wife. It was awful. I still didn't know what was wrong with him. In fact, I was really afraid that there was something gravely wrong with his brain.

This year, I know what this all is. I have removed myself from his equation of confusion and that is freeing. I have learned to live with an MLCer without getting drawn into his drama. And, unlike last year I do feel thankful. I am grateful for my past with H, for my children and for this moment in time.

As for the holiday, it was fairly quiet. I made a nice breakfast. I find I have my old energy back. Last year this time, I had to summon myself to make a nice breakfast. I was coming out of my own depression and boy, was I easily fatigued.

H ate breakfast with us. He looked horrible. He was pure grey and his eyes were so sullen. The photos of him look ghostly. Like Xmas last year. After breakfast we all watched a movie at home.

Then, we started to dress for dinner. I helped S10 and S12 gather their clothes:suits! I gave S10 his tie and told him to go down and ask his father to tie it for him. I didn't think twice about this as this was always a H task.

A few minutes later S10 comes up and his tie is a mess. I ask if S12 tied it. He says no, that his dad did. The top part doesn't have that triangular shape at all. When I pull the long part of the tie, I see that the shorter flap of the tie is longer than the part that is supposed to be longer. And H just tucked the thinner part of the tie in between the buttons of the shirt so that it was hidden inside the shirt. I had this frustration take me over. He can't even take 1 minute to help him with a tie. Then I calmed myself by realizing I asked H13 to help. Zero expectations . . . zero expectations . . . I am in my happy place . . . I am in my happy place...

S12 came in my room and saw me re-tie his brother. S12 said, with dejection: this is something dad is supposed to do and instead he just plays music all the time. I felt myself crumble for him. He can remember a time when his dad took time to teach him this. S10 hears his brother say this. I know someday they will discuss these years amongst themselves. Normally I do not say too much. I listen. But today I said cheerfully: mom is here to help and gave him a big hug. The boys looked so handsome. What good people they are! I am so proud of how kind they are.

Dinner was nice. The food was delicious and the place was very festive. I am proud of H as I am sure he had to muster a tremendous amount of energy for the day. I remember my own depressive fatigue.

After dinner we went for a walk and H told the kids: mom and I stayed here on vacation years ago. I listened and did not say anything. He reminisces like this every so often and it is weird. After he was done talking he turned and asked me if I remembered that. That too was odd. I am sure that was projection. He has forgotten so much he probably assumes I have as well. I thanked him for dinner and then off to home we went. He went to the dorm room for the night and I say by the fire with the boys.

This morning I see he emailed me. He thanks me for the pleasant company at dinner and sent me a copy of he song. I responded by thanking him once again for dinner. And I thanked him for the song.

Today, he gave me the day off (a welcome respite) as I worked from home with the boys Monday - Wedesday. He has plans with the kids.

[job]

I am very happy to read that your Thanksgiving turned out nicely. Sounds like he actually tried to be in the present for you and your sons. I hope that next year will be different and he will have grown up a bit.

I find it interesting that he uses music as a way of possible communication. Maybe you need to sit down and jot down some lyrics and give it to him. It could be one way to reach out to him w/o pursuing. It's just a thought.

[HaWho]

Job-I have considered that. In our past when he has been really mad, we had to correspond via letters per his inability to talk face to face. Plus, I think when we talked, truth be told, I had this inability to see when he had had enough. I think I exhausted him. Ok, I KNOW I exhausted him. I have learned much since then.

We actually became quite efficient at communicating A LOT through written word. Maybe it is time to dust off that saddle again.

The thing is, I do not know how much I can say without scaring him. I could start with something funny...

[job]

Start w/something funny and talk about friendship.

[HaWho]

Okay. Should I mention his MLC? Just kidding...

By the way, you are scary smart Job! Thanks!!

Off to dip my quill in its ink...

[HaWho]

So I sent back a song. It was light, funny and had 2 lines that mentioned friendship. H and I have always had a joking relationship. His initial song to me was a "holiday song." I told him that just because he released his song in November did not mean it was a "holiday song." (His song was more about living life and enjoying it.). I told him I would show him what a true holiday song was. It was cheerful and about dinner last night. My song was pretty goofy and I am tone deaf to boot.

His response is very interesting. He tells me I have hit a new lyrical low. (Very funny and the wit is VERY old H.). He tells me that this has to be rock bottom for me. He says like AA says, the first step to lyrical recovery is to admit I am lyrically barren. Then I need to proceed through the next 11 steps and all will be well!

My H does not drink much at all. Pretty surprised by the reference and the irony of hitting "rock bottom."

[job]

Interesting comments from your h. I would ask him to explain more about this "lyrical low". You can't admit to something unless you have a better understanding of what he means by that comment.

[AJM]

I'm kind of wondering if his "lyrical low" comment was a different kind of attempt at humor on his part. Seems he is not himself - maybe trying somebody else?

Ok, I KNOW I exhausted him. I have learned much since then

Yes, yes you have. I'm impressed

Glad you had a great thanksgiving and are reaching a good balance. Holidays can make people crazy. Be watchful and don't get sucked into it.

I also notice your husband was grateful for the pleasant time together. I'm sure it's a blip in time, but nice that he noticed, no?

Happy Thanksgiving!

AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJ- hope you had a nice holiday, too! Yes, it is nice that he thanked me for the pleasant company. It was definitely a moment in time and has now passed.

Job-I asked him to explain what he meant by "lyrical low" so I would better understand if I had the problem to which I should admit. He never answered me. Not sure why he did not. Maybe he thought it was a rhetorical question not worth answering? But even then, he usually would say something. Maybe AJ is right and he was trying somebody else on for size. Who knows? Maybe he can't remember writing it and that's why he didn't answer.

One thing I forgot to mention, in the email he also said "like AA says, this rock bottom has to occur for you to rise up." Hmm-I was hoping this is projection.

But he was irritable yesterday. In the AM he carried his laundry down and proudly boasted that he does his own laundry and cleans up after himself. (Laundry is still a touch painful given that he spewed at me over laundry in front of the kids.) I should have validated and missed the moment.

So when he came in to turn over his laundry, I told him that he was very good at doing his laundry. He scoffed and said there wasn't a wrinkle in it. That was a dig at me. I smiled and said yes, "that may be because of the novelty of it all. Once you've been doing laundry for 10 years, it is easy to make errors." (Not good DB on my part, I know.) I laughed and tried to make it light. But what I wanted to say was: let me add raising kids, cleaning the house, grocery shopping and doing all the cooking to your to-do list and then let's see how you fare. He is a teenaged punk and I fantasize about sending him away to a special school with others like him.

Then I was outside talking to our sweet neighbor. His wife is unwell and he takes on a lot. H did not realize I was talking to him and pulled up into the driveway with this nasty look on his face and snapped at me because the dog was off leash and had come up next to his car. I was pretty embarrassed. Another moment where I wanted to say: it's just an MLC and smile.

Here's the topper of the night. S12 is starting to cook! He is getting pretty good. He made a seasoned sauce for a steak we were going to share. We were making a simpler steak for H11 and S10 as they are vanilla eaters. H had come in and made himself a sandwich 10 minutes before dinner! I was helping S12 make his steak while H was making his sandwich. Theoretically as H was right in the room he should have seen S12 making a seasoned steak H wouldn't eat. As the rest of dinner was cooking, S12 and I played a few games of backgammon right at the kitchen table. H scurried off to the dorm room with his sandwiches. During one of the games H came in; I assumed to put back earlier dishes.

S12 and I finish our game and I go to set out dinner only to realize H had eaten the steak S12 had worked so hard on! S12 went to the dorm room to tell him and H13 laughed over it. He said he thought we had already eaten?!? (Of course if the same had happened to his meal, we would all have to treat it like a federal offense.). Moments later he came out and apologized but from the doorway of his room
where we couldn't even see him.

S12 says: geez, he doesn't even come apologize face-to-face. Ugh. S12 has H11's number.

[job]

You've h is certainly acting more like a teenager every day! LOL! I believe he's projecting on to you what AA says about hitting rock bottom. I'm just wondering how he knows so much at AA these days. Does he consider himself an addict of some sort? I don't recall you mentioning that he had been one.

Oh the laundry...many of them do their own laundry and are so proud of themselves. My mlcing friend did laundry every day and told me that he didn't have to use his brain to do so. Gosh...maybe we need to go back to the basics of doing laundry and see what is so great about it.

I'm sorry he jumped on you about the dog. I think I would have told the neighbor that he was just acting out while having his crisis these days.

As for the steak...it must have been delicious if he ate the entire thing. Just like a teenager, i.e., not thinking to ask if everyone else had eaten. I'm sorry you son didn't get to taste his own cooking, but he'll get another chance and this time, stay close to the stove to make sure it stays in the pan until you are ready to sit down and eat. Yes, your son has your h's number in more ways than one.

[kml]

He is a teenaged punk and I fantasize about sending him away to a special school with others like him.

Lol - ship him off to military school!

[HaWho]

Hi KML - you are kinder than I. I was researching places where he could perhaps intern as a eunuch?

Job- so much perception in your post. Here is the thing. It shocked me how much he knew about AA. He has never been an addict to my knowledge. And, as far as I know neither of us know anyone who has gone through AA. I have been wondering how he knows all this. And he seems to know it all. He would never be the type to look into such a thing just to see what it is all about. I am thinking he knows someone new who is in AA or just out of AA. Hmm.

Once again, I hope it is projection as that letter, was a rock bottom for me. I saw a different man in those words. And I do believe he knows it. There is something that changed in me when I set that boundary with him and I know he sensed it.

As for my S12, he said he will put a post it on his food from now on! LOL!

I think it is time to have S12 talk to someone. I need advice here. I feel like it needs to be someone who knows kids and the impact of MLC on kids.

Also Job, yes, S12 has H's number in more than one way. S12 knows this is MLC. He asked me in the spring when H was going out all hours without saying anything to us. I told him the truth. S12 became upset and asked if this would happen to him as well.

He has seen it all unfold before his eyes and he is on the perceptive side for sure. He saw the replay, the massive confusion, H completely disheveled, moving back into master BR, moving out, etc.

When H first moved downstaris S12 asked me why. On advice of IC I said H wasn't sleeping well and he was keeping me up so he moved downstairs. S12 was silent and then said: he abandoned you. I think he knew that very day that something was very wrong with H.

S12 is growing up with a father in MLC. He cannot talk to his father at all. He says that if he tries to talk to him, he can't communicate and H can offer him no advice.

Anyone know if there is a specialty for kids whose parents are in MLC? I think S12 feels inadequate/like he is failing because he has a tough time communicating with his father. I think from going to others' houses he knows his father is different from other dads. I am worried maybe he is going to learn codependence from all this.

I am also worried this MLC cycle will repeat itself on some crazy subconscious level.

Any advice is welcome.

[job]

I am going to suggest that you contact your IC and ask about a referral for your son. He/she may know of someone who is good and can work w/him.

I laughed over the sticky note...your h might not see it and eat it as well. LOL!

Why are you worried about the MLC cycle? Are you afraid that your h will go thru it again? If he completes the entire cycle this, he shouldn't go thru it again; or are you worried that your son will experience a crisis later in life?

The AA info sent a red flag up for me. Most people don't know that much about AA unless they are attending the meetings, know someone who is going to the meetings or a former AA member. But, he could have been curious and did some research on line about it...but he appears to know too much about it and to talk about hitting bottom, etc.

[HaWho]

I am worried about all of it. I am worried my H won't complete. His father did not. And yes, I am VERY worried about my son having a MLC. I need to do all I can to teach him this has nothing to do with him.

The house is quiet and though there is no yelling and screaming my H hides in a dorm room listening to music and watching movies all by himself. It is quite dysfunctional. He is unreachable and avoidant.

Let me give you one scary example of the status of his empathy chip. Last spring, a few of S12's friends biked over through the woods. When they arrived, one boy told me he saw a dead body in the woods. He was very scared. I said, no, it's a shadow you saw. I took the boy back to the spot and my S12 followed. The boy pointed me to a bend in the path and sure enough, there was a body there. S12 had followed me and saw a glimpse, too.

We ran back home and we were all very upset. It was gruesome what we saw. I called the police. S12 and I were in shock. H opened the door when we ran home. We are very upset and H is just numb. He does not say a word. He does not hug, console . . . nada, zilch.

We go sit down and we are just trying to process what that all was. H gets cereal and eats it by himself in the dining room as we are crying. I still remember him chomping away as S12 cried. Moments later S12 says: "something is wrong with dad. He didn't care that the woman died." This is his dad! It's crazy!! He is going to remember that lack of reaction forever.

We found out the woman had committed suicide, sadly. She was young and had changed her name. She was running from something clearly.

As for the AA, I am tempted to just wait until the kids are not here and just ask him how he knows so much about AA. I think I will able to tell much from his demeanor. I don't think he would ever be the type to subscribe to that sort of thing so I really why he knows so much.

[job]

I would call your IC tomorrow and ask for a referral. Your son needs a "safe" place to talk out his thoughts, feelings and fears. Even though you are considered "safe", he needs someone who is outside the immediate family so that he can talk more freely to someone who isn't family.

Yes, your h's empathy chip was and still is broken will most likely continue that way for a while.

As for the conversation about AA, I think I would phrase it this way, "h, you mentioned several times about AA and hitting bottom, how did you learn so much about AA?" If you come out and ask him, he may very well shut down and not tell you. You have to sound like you are impressed by his knowledge and feed him those ego kibbles to get some answers.

BTW, there is a book out there entitled "I Don't Want To Talk About It" by Terrence Real that discusses male depression and the legacy of handing it down to future generations. I recommended that book many years ago on this Forum. It is excellent. You may want to check it out.

[HaWho]

Thanks Job. I did read that book a few months ago. I should re-read it. It was very good. I know I downloaded it onto my kindle.

Yes, I think you are right about my son. I will call tomorrow. It is time.

Ok, I do think I will be "impressed" by H's new found AA knowledge. VERY good advice Job. Now I am starting to think H didn't answer the lyrical low question because I was on to something?

Thanks Job, as always, for your time and advice.

[LouR]

HaWho

Just want to tell you that you are an incredible lady, you are showing what the true meaning of patience and understanding really is.

I hope you manage to find someone wonderful for your s to talk his thoughts through with, I like job's suggestion of asking your IC as they know your history so may be able to advise of someone suitable to your situation. You have recognized a potential problem for your s and are acting, full mummy marks to you, this is what stands you apart from your h; you are in full possession of your faculties!

Love the communication through song - I sort of took the remarks he made as a joke, like you wrote a terrible song and don't give up your day job kinda thing, but you all seem to have seen it a different way - makes me think about how I interpret things ...

Keep on being you my friend

[HaWho]

Hi LouR- Aw, shucks. Thanks for all the kind words. You are quite the model for patience and understanding yourself. Many times, I feel like a goldfish that was dumped onto a dry floor. Lol!

Actually, I do believe H meant it as a joke conveying all that you wrote. But, I think there also may have been more to it? Who knows though . . . it is MLC after all.

Really my focus is S12 now. I have my life jacket on and I need to get him squared away ASAP.

When Job made the comment that maybe by next year H will have grown up a bit, I thought yes, just in time for my two sons also to enter the teenage years. Lol!! There will be sticky notes all over this house by then!!! (Note to self: buy Post-It stock now.)

[mleigh4]

Hi Hawho. I can't offer much advice in regards to your son, I think having him talk to someone other than you is a good idea. Especially since he is voicing his concerns. My son is 8 and doesn't say anything directly about H, he just expresses that he doesn't like being with him. When I ask him why, he really doesn't have a specific reason. Maybe he is too young to express his reasons.

I too worry that the cycle will repeat itself in my S, however, I think in our case our sons are seeing some strong women at work and seeing their dad's being a weak link. My hope is that this will make son respect women all the more. I also know that if I saw my son treating his family this way, I would take some action, not stick my head in the sand, as my MIL has done. I suspect the same of you.

I am happy to hear you had a nice Thanksgiving. Your strength and patience while living with your MLC'ER amazes me. I went back to my posts this time last year, H was still home, and I was far less patient as you. You are an awesome woman Hawho.

[HaWho]

So after a few very irritable days, H peeked out of the dorm room a little bit. Many of the peek outs are comical.

On Sunday AM I ran out to the grocery store as I decided to make a hearty crockpot meal. As H walked into the kitchen and nearly tripped over the grocery bags, he asked if I needed anything at the grocery store! Lol! I smiled and said "no, all set." (Last time I accepted he did ALL the shopping in the grocery section of the CVS pharmacy even though there was a "real" grocery store next door?!?)

I LOVE how he offers to help when something is already done. NO credit for that one. S12 has learned this trick, too!!! Next time, I will give him a REALLY long list of obscure items (mango chutney and creme fraiche, etc.) and send him on his way. I will make up some things too and then feign confusion as to why he couldn't find them: like barbecued mini gherkins. And I know he will ask for help at the store which is even more hilarious!! H will learn it takes talking to a Manager to determine they don't carry BBQ mini gherkins and this will be after he's been traipsed through the whole store twice.

On Sunday he stayed in the living room the whole time and watched football with us. I was tempted to ask him if the dorm room tv was broken?!? But I dusted off my halo and wings and did not do so. Full credit for me!!

Yesterday, he offered to pick up S10 from school. He brought him home AND fixed him a snack AND helped him with homework. It was hard not to Windex my eyes to determine if I was seeing clearly. That is the first time he has helped with homework in over a year, for sure. After dinner he stayed in the main part of the house all evening. Hmm... He must be gearing up for something. Maybe plans for New Year's with his Viagra toting MLC BFF.

I actually found a LOT of anger bubble up. Seeing him parent just made me realize what an absentee dad he has been. I had to leave the room because I was afraid my look would show it all.

Later he drove S10 to practice, which he always does. Later he texted me and asked if we should get "our tree" today. I said sure.

Today was quite comical. My personal favorite is when the MLCer temporarily wakes up from replay and gives his Shakepearean-like speech on responsibility.

Here is how it unfolded: S10 woke with a horrible cough today. It is deep in his lungs. He stayed home from school and I will work from home.

H(adult mode) tells S10 he should take a pill and go! He gives a quick soliloquy about responsibility and working hard! (I am in the other room trying not to laugh when he tells S10 how grown up he was at son's age! Yeah, and now you are nearly 50 going on 11!!)

Then he starts to give me a quick "he should go," talk as though I am enabling S10 by letting him stay home and cough and blow his nose. I know his mom sent him to school no matter what. I think he thinks this is a badge of toughness/"growing up" vs. what it REALLY was: neglect. It it a big difference between us. Kids should be taught to listen to their bodies. It is important. All I had to do was say the word and I stayed home and was cared for with kindness.

I listen to him and then smile and say: he is sick. He needs to stay home and get better. H pushes back. I listen and try a different tack: reason. I tell him it is the teachers' job to instruct, not to double as a nurse. That silences him. Funny how he has more respect for the teacher than a sick kid, and his own kid to boot.

I am looking for a window of opportunity to ask about his depth of knowledge about AA.

[job]

You have the patience of a saint. I just chuckle over his antics. Yep, you go to the store and there sit the groceries and then he asks if you need anything from the store. Gotta love those antics.

I can't wait to see how he is over Christmas. It will be very interesting what he gets you in the way of a present.

Hang in there! I think you are doing great!

[HaWho]

Job - it is UNREAL as I think he thinks a) he's helping out with his offers and b) I am stupid enough to think it is helpful!

Maybe I should show up one night at 7PM, after he's had to handle dinner and as they are eating I can say: oh, let me make you guys dinner! (I'll even tie on my apron for effect!)

[job]

You can't help but shake your head at this stuff. Keep that sense of humor you have and it will help you deal w/his teenage antics. Dig deeper for patience because you may need it further down the road. You just never know which way they are going to turn these days.

[mleigh4]

Oh you struck a nerve with the comment about a MLC preaching about responsibility. It is really hard for me to keep my mouth shut when I get these speeches, as I did last night.

They are just so oblivious.

[HaWho]

Hi Mleigh- I know what you mean. It is laughable when a grown man, who ducks and covers from his problems, gives a speech on responsibility. Talk about lack of self awareness.

Job I have a question for you/need advice. Read on a bit and you can see how a situation unfolded and how I should handle it.

So, I had an opportunity to ask about H's newly acquired AA knowledge. I did it just as you recommended Job. H told me he googled it for the email he wrote to me. He said he searched "AA 9 steps" as he thought there were 9 steps not 12. I said: wow, your info seemed so specific." He seemed surprised and said, it was off the internet. He said he did not know why this was so impressive. Then he sulked and said he would take the compliments where he can get them.

From his last line there I know he feels I have not stroked his ego enough. I need to validate him more. But dang, there is just so very little to validate these days. I am grasping at straws. What am I supposed to say: "gee you are so good at staying in your dorm room all the time."

Plus, I don't want to pursue and to me, these ego kibbles I am supposed to throw him feel like pursuing. But, he is so immature, probably I need to do this? Job, where is that line between pursuing and validating??? It feels silly to validate him for things he should be doing and so I think I feel like I am pursuing. But, I assume he needs these strokes?

Last night was interesting. H left for a walk before dinner. He did not tell me when he would be back. I waited 10 minutes from the time we normally eat and then I heard Job scolding me not to wait for him. H returned about 15 minutes later than the time we normally eat. As he walked in and we were eating I told him dinner was on the counter. His salad was made but nothing else was plated. He started to plate his dinner and then I saw his shoulders slump and off to the dorm room be went without dinner.

I did start to spin. I have not in a long time. I stopped and tried to figure out why. What am I afraid of? That he will tell me he is done with me? Check-already been there. That he will say he does not love me? Check-been there, too. I realized I was spinning because he was peeking out and maybe I would scare him off by starting dinner without him. I still think I can move him along through that tunnel. But for a few Sundays before this one, as I was making dinner H just up and announced he was leaving to get some work done. He didn't eat dinner until he returned a few hours later. Like a visiting college student...

As I was helping S12 w/homework questions, H came out and fixed a plate. Then S12 discovered he had a splinter and I was removing that as we discussed homework. H offered to remove the splinter as he used to do these. He was very good at this. S12 said "no mom will do it." Then, at the same time S10 had a question about homework. H13 who was fixing his dinner said "I can help you." S10 said "no mom will." So there I am helping with Algebra, removing a splinter and helping S10 with math. All I needed was for the dog to throw up. The kids are learning to lean on me more and more. It makes me sad for them and for H. He is missing those bonding moments.

But after all this, I stopped feeling guilty for not waiting for him on dinner.

Later, I was reading with S10 in my room. He had a warm compress on his eye as something was irritating it. H11 dashed in and gave us each our own personal copy of his latest CD. I said thanks and then he dashed off. He avoids my room at all costs and he rarely comes upstairs to where the kids sleep. He of course did not see the compress on S10's eye.

I am thinking of texting him that I like one of the songs. There is one that is positive and not bleak. I don't want to come across as pursuing but he gave me the CD and he has said he needs more compliments . . .

[HaWho]

Oh- just realized I missed a text from H. It was from yesterday, minutes before dinner and he asks us to come down to a nearby plaza to listen to Christmas carolers. No wonder he was late. Ouch.

I sent him a text saying I am sorry I missed his message. If S12 and I do no have our cellular data turned on we don't receive group texts until we do turn it on. I explained to H. Ouch again...

He texted back "k." New lingo-not even "ok" just "k." Lol!

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, reading about your H giving you the CDs reminded me of my friend's son. In his teens, he loved to write and record music, which he would burn onto a CD and give to people. I have a few of his compilations.

Thanks for your encouraging message on my thread. It isn't that difficult to live without an H in MLC, but I do read in awe of those who manage to live with them. I'm not sure it would have been something I could have done. So I do take my hat off to you.

I think you do well to observe, process, post, seek advice, not react....all the right things from where I'm sitting. It does sound as though your H has regressed back to his teenage years. Just in terms of him reaching out to your S, and your S wanting your help and not his. I wonder if you might get up on occasion, saying yes your Dad can help you...I've got washing to do...or whatever?

I haven't had the "k" yet....I'll look out for that one. H did go through a phase of curt texting, but he types a little more now. I'm normally the briefer one in any exchanges.

Take care anyway - I think you're doing so well xx

[mleigh4]

Sorry about missing your H text. Don't beat yourself up though. He could have said something when he got home and realized right away that you didn't see it. He is in total teenage mode.

I get the "k" often. Then I will get those super friendly long texts and my alarm bells go off! Lol. It's sad that we get to a point where being treated like poo is the norm :p

[HaWho]

You are right Mleigh. He could have handled it differently when he returned home. Also, when neither of us texted H back, he could have called as most adults would choose to do. Even S10 understands this concept.

[AJM]

HW, do you think giving him compliments will be helpful?

I hear the pull, but my first thought is you are trying to be a fixer. That you are compensating for his depressive attitude.

Kids. They're funny in that they are sooooo honest in how they act and express themselves. They aren't happy with their dad and aren't letting him off the hook. Probably good for them to do so.

Be watchful that they don't cross the line of protecting their mother though. They grow up too fast that way. Just be watchful is all I'm saying.

As for you, you'll have to decide if you feel that complimenting him more is the right thing for you and him. By asking the question, I'm guessing you've already thought about it and have an answer of sorts, no?


AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJ - your question was so simple and yet perfect. Yes, I think it is my way of running over with my first aid kit. It is not healthy for him to walk around with his hand out fishing for compliments. I will continue to validate in circumstances where it is appropriate. Thanks AJ for turning the spotlight on here.

The situation with the kids is tricky. I certainly don't want them taking sides. However, I don't want them thinking H's behavior is normal, either. H's habits and coping skills are primitive at best and in all honesty, right now, S10 and S12 are more advanced in these areas. It is weird and again, they live here and so they see it all with their own eyes. I don't want to condone H's immaturity and yet I don't want to throw him under the bus.

Sotto - missed your post the other day. Thank you for the kind words of encouragement. I took your advice and, when H offered homework help, I took him up on it. S10 again wanted me to help but I told him I needed to put dinner on. It was very good advice. It was good for all of us. Thanks!

[bttrfly]

Hi HW,
Wow. Reading your posts has made me realize why I've been so miserable for the past 4 years ... I've been living with someone in MLC! Of course! I wish I'd had that knowledge before he BD, but it is what it is.

Just wanted to pop in to say hey, and offer encouragement. Sending you positive thoughts xoxoxo

[AJM]

The situation with the kids is tricky. I certainly don't want them taking sides. However, I don't want them thinking H's behavior is normal, either. H's habits and coping skills are primitive at best and in all honesty, right now, S10 and S12 are more advanced in these areas. It is weird and again, they live here and so they see it all with their own eyes. I don't want to condone H's immaturity and yet I don't want to throw him under the bus.

That's a great approach, HW. That's looking out for the kids and they'll appreciate it later, when they look back. That's a fantastic gift to give a child

AJ

[HaWho]

AJ - so glad you agree with the plan! Now, just send me over the blueprint. Ha ha.

[HaWho]

So, just a few updates. I have been swamped with work, which is keeping me quite occupied.

On Friday H texted me to ask if "we" needed anything at the store. I said yes and asked him to pick up a few items. He cracked a small joke in our text conversation. I made one back.

That evening we went to pick out a tree. H could not find his way to the same place at which we have been buying a tree for 3 years. I joked I was not going to tell him just to see if he could remember. He could not-so scary. So I told him. On the drive home he missed the 2nd to last turn to our street. Geez, the memory problems are brutal.

When we went to decorate the tree, H actually hung a few ornaments. And he stayed in the room the whole time. I am sure that took a lot of effort.

At one point he pulled out a sentimental ornament that he bought for me years ago. He showed it and called me by my old nickname. I smiled but man oh man, have I detached. I just cannot be dragged into every touch-n-go like it means something deep. Too painful to go down that road all the time.

Later he pulled something else out that he bought me before the kids were born. He told them he loved it and that he bought it for me long ago.

And then he texted me about something financial and said it was for the "family."

I worry that he will not wake up but instead want to live like this-a form of cake eating- forever. He seems quite content with this arrangement.

[BrightFuture]

HaWho, it is quite interesting to read about your H’s memory problems. It just shows how deep these MLCers are in the tunnel. The biggest issue of all of it is probably depression that they are going through.

I worry that he will not wake up but instead want to live like this-a form of cake eating- forever. He seems quite content with this arrangement.

Same here… I made a mistake talking to my friend from work today about my sitch. She said that my H seems to be cake eating j@rk, so the best I can do is to file for D and cut all the ties. I kind of see why she would say that…

I’m glad that you are not letting yourself to be dragged into these touch-n-go’s. You are one strong woman, HaWho!

[AJM]

Don't make the mistake of thinking that what's happening now is going to continue. That would negate all the rest you've learned, no? For example, by now you should know that what happens is just a point in time. Not more and not less.

At some point, whether he changes them or you do, things will change. Rest assured that will happen when the time is right.

Don't rush it. No need. You can take that off your shoulders and live your life while the rest is going on.


AJ

[HaWho]

Thank you AJ for the wise words. As H was going through his crazy "Boys Gone Wild" phase of replay I knew there was no way he could maintain that level of freneticism. I wasn't worried that would last. I can see him stuck in this spot though. It seems comfy for him. I guess in that case, I will be the one to change when I am ready.

I had a tough day today. I had a lot of anger surface. I have processed most of that letter and now can mentally discard most of it. But there are just still those 2 or 3 lines in that letter that injure me so deeply. They are very dark and I just wonder how I will ever move on from those. The problem is that I swing like a pendulum. Sometimes I think: those are crazy comments, write it off as temporary insanity. Other times I think: those are crazy comments, what are you thinking? You are not DBing or standing. You are just crazy, too.

I kept to myself today because I was feeling like I was just going to lose my temper with him. I imagined all the things I wanted to vent at him regarding his audacious comments in that filthy letter. I tried to remember my own depression and how I too said much I regretted/didn't even mean. But still so much anger.

[mleigh4]

I wish I had something to say, someway to deal with that letter, but I don't. I know how words can hurt so deeply, I have my own flashbacks with H that have become demons to haunt me now and then. I too wonder how to cope with that, how to forgive, and if I ever can.

I like the burning idea... Maybe writing out the insult along with our own response then destroy it...IDK...I will be watching for some advice here.

[AJM]

I kept to myself today because I was feeling like I was just going to lose my temper with him. I imagined all the things I wanted to vent at him regarding his audacious comments in that filthy letter. I tried to remember my own depression and how I too said much I regretted/didn't even mean. But still so much anger.

The human mind has a way of bringing unresolved things up at odd times. Sometimes a reminder causes it. A whiff of perfume or cologne, a dinner smell, a photograph. Sometimes, the mind is just ready to bring it to the surface and deal with it for a while.

Some things to think about. You remember what it was like to be depressed and lash out. That may bring empathy. You may also want to up your physical activity. It helps. It may be helpful to talk them over with your IC and solicit ideas for how to handle them. In the end, you were handed a basket of crap. How you learn to put it down is something to figure out, but carrying it is not something you want to do for very long.

Those things were meant to be destructive, no? Are you going to let them be? Or are you in charge of your feelings?

That said, until resolved, those feelings are going to be like rambunctious kids that pop up when not really wanted.

I can only imagine the hurt, HW. And I'm sorry for you to have to endure that to this point. Now let's figure out how to deal with them so they no longer affect you like that. I think that would be a great Christmas present for yourself.


AJ

[AJM]

p.s. I don't think I brought up the idea of forgiveness. The thought for me is that forgiveness is just that. Forgiving one a debt. i.e. you owe me an apology. But instead I forgive you of that obligation.

The other part of that is reconciliation. Reconciliation is not the same as having a new relationship or any relationship at all. It's about reconciling the anger and hurt. That's different than forgiving because even if you forgive, you can be angry about it.

My thoughts anyway.

AJ

[HaWho]

Thanks Mleigh and AJ for all the help. I really do appreciate it. AJ, I will mull that all over.

So, I received a text from H. He wants the letter back. He tells me I need to return it by tomorrow. He tells me that it is perfectly normal/even positive correspondence for a functional/healthy couple. He tells me he is uncomfortable with it in my possession. He tells me the only reason for me to keep it is to embarrass him or for devious purposes. He then says he cannot continue to reside under the same roof as me/support me while I have copies of the letter.

I texted back asking why now all of a sudden he wants it back. Then I asked, if it is a healthy piece of correspondence why does he need it back.

He said again it is healthy but private and he wants it back. I asked if it is "healthy" does that mean various friends we have also have copies of such correspondence between husbands and wives? He said it is a difference of opinion between us.

I have not answered back.

[HaWho]

It is interesting that as always, he wants to deal with this hiding behind his computer. I feel strongly this is a discussion that should take place face-to-face.

[BrightFuture]

Oh my! Sounds like he has some regrets about the letter. Not?

[mleigh4]

AJ, I love picturing the hurtful things done to us as a basket of crap. That is very helpful motivation to get rid of it!

Hawho, I don't know what to think about your H wanting the letter back....only thing I can think of is remorse or embarrassment. What are you going to do with it?

[HaWho]

Job- if you're reading, I would appreciate your opinion on all this. See above threads.

It really rubs me the wrong way that he is again trying to trigger my fears to get what he wants. He says he cannot continue to reside with me/support me while I have the letter. Can't he just say "hey, I regret sending that, may I have it back?"

It is also deeply hurtful that he maintains there is nothing wrong with it when obviously, if he wants it back, that cannot be. In fact, he says it is positive and healthy. That is insulting to my intelligence. It is an undisputed filthy piece of trash. It is crazy, truly.

Sounds like he does regret it as well he should. He says it could be potentially embarrassing. Again, don't care for the threat that he can't live with me or support me as I have that letter. Hmm . . . I was GIVEN the letter and I am still here.

[HaWho]

Then he sent me an email saying the only reasons I would not be returning it are devious and poisonous.

Why this big need all of a sudden?

Job and any other vets, thoughts?

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, perhaps he is worried that you would use the letter against him in some way? It is a sad thing that him writing that letter caused such great difficulties for you both. However, as I see it, it is similar to lashing out at someone in an argument and saying things you don't really mean. Just that he committed them to paper unfortunately.

It's a bit of a strange situation as the letter is actually a toxic item that he is now seeking ownership of and you are resisting that. Perhaps the best thing might be for neither of you to have this toxic item. Would it be an option for you to say to him - hey lets burn the letter between us. You can watch me do it and then it no longer exists? Of course I'm no vet, but to let it go would be a good thing I think.

I agree with AJ that finding a way to reconcile your own feelings about it are so important. It clearly caused tremendous hurt and settling that will bring peace and forward motion for you.

Take care Sweetie xx

[job]

I think your h regrets putting words to paper and giving it to you. Once you say something harsh, it is very difficult to take back when it is done orally...so, in his mind, if he takes the letter back, all will be forgiven and nothing more said about it. However, I also think that he thinks that at some point, you'll pull that letter out and remind him of it. It's like they think that when they do something wrong, we'll constantly point out that mistake over and over again when we are angry. Keep in mind, he could be projecting on to you how he thinks that you will be when you are angry.

Sotto's suggestion about the two of you standing over a fire and burning the letter (together) is an ideal way of settling this issue. He's still a teenager and is going to act like one for quite a while. His behavior about the letter reminds me so much of kids in high school writing stuff down and then wanting it back "or else".

It's time to square this issue up and start looking towards the holidays. Get the matches out and find a spot to burn the letter. I know that you'll remember the words for a long time and I'm sorry you had to read them...always try to remember that you are a wonderful person and not allow his angry words get to you. He was lashing out and trust me, he's going to regret he ever wrote them (which I think he's realizing now).

[HaWho]

Slept on it and I agree. Thanks Sotto and Job.

I am a words person. If he just said he regretted it or apologized it really would help me heal. It just adds insult to injury that he tells me this is all positive/healthy corresponse. I think it would help him too, if he just owed that it was a mistake vs. digging his heels in and saying it is all fine.

[job]

MLCers have a very difficult time saying "I'm sorry", i.e., apologize. He hasn't grown up enough yet to be able to say it. As a child/teenager, he thinks everything will be fine once he gets the letter back.

You are still looking at him as being the old h and he's not. He's a teenager in a man's body trying very hard to grow up. I know it hurts like h@ll what he wrote, but he didn't realize the consequences of his actions would cut very, very deep w/you. Kids say mean things and truly do not understand how much they hurt when they say them to others.

I don't think you'll get an apology at this time. Then again, he might come out and say he's sorry, but my sense of the situation is that he just can't say those words right now. Many of us have heard and received nasty grams and still have not received an apology. MLCers love to sweep stuff under the rug and pretend everything is okay because they can't deal w/confrontation and having to look within during the crisis.

I'm sorry this happened to you. I would definitely keep my expectations where it concerns him dialed down as low as possible. I hate to say this, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an apology. If he does, then accept the apology and let it go.

You've come a long way and I would hate to see this fester any longer than necessary. Burn the letter together and then attempt to move on from there.

[HaWho]

Thank you Job. The rationale helps and it makes sense. It is festering and I'm kind of stuck due to it. Time to release it.

AJ - I like you idea of it being my gift to myself for this Christmas.

[mleigh4]

I love that idea---burn it.

[HaWho]

So first thing this AM I brought a large pot, the letter and a book of matches to the the dorm room. (The kids were in the living room so I did not want to use the fireplace.)

I knocked on H's door and he barked "whaaaat" in a nasty tone. When I opened the door he was lounging in bed listening to his latest song. He really looked like an older teenager; it was bizarre.

I handed him the matches and told him to burn the letter. He rolled his eyes (like a teen) and muttered that this seemed dramatic. I watched the letter burn most of the way and then I just left the room. While it was burning I knew I wanted to leave him with the mess, literally and figuratively. A few minutes later, he came into the kitchen and cleaned out the pot. Having him burn it and then clean up this hot mess he created gave me satisfaction and returned to me some of my dignity that was stripped by that letter. Then I went and played tennis and pretended the ball was H. Lol!!

There was some weirdly comical MLC stuff when I returned. S10 is having friends over today. H decided to take S12 out to play football. I told both sons they needed to clean their bathroom first. H13 huffed that S12 could do it later as they were going to play football. Really mature! I calmly said that no, work before play. Plus company was coming over and it is basic manners to clean the bathroom first. S12 gave a big attitude. Meanwhile, I heard H scurry off to his own bathroom and clean up a bit--no lie, like a third child!

When H12 and S12 left I could just see them kibitzing about how lame "mom" is. So often they are like twins. S10 had a great attitude and did a nice job cleaning his 1/2 of the bathroom. It is official: he is now the most mature of my three sons. Ha ha . . .

One interesting thing was that in his text yesterday H said the letter was given to me in spring when actually it was given in August. There is that fuzzy MLC memory at work.

All in all, despite the fact that H did no apologize, by asking for the letter back I know he regrets it. The timing of it all is interesting. My issues with that letter re-surfaced and that I was struggling with it all. Then he asked for it back. Could be sense it?

[mleigh4]

Good for you! I am so glad you took it all to H, and left him with it to clean up. I think that must have felt good. It felt good to me just reading it! I hope this helps you Hawho.

[HaWho]

Yesterday was a frustrating day.

Last night S12 and I made dinner. Then I had to drop off S10 at a party. My plan was to eat dinner with the "twins"- H12 and S12 and then go Xmas shopping. So I told S12 I would be back in 15 mins. When I returned they had eaten without me! I told them they were animals and my tone was NOT PMA. H said S12 said I was gone for the night. I left the house in a huff--just soooo tired of being the only adult.

S12 called and apologized for not hearing me. We had a conversation about him not lifting his head to pay attention when people leave.

H texted me to say there was no need to leave in a huff. He said he would have waited for me for dinner as usual. Then he said this was a miscommunication or maybe no communication on my part.

I know I should have said thanks and dropped it. But it was just too annoying being lectured by a guy who communicates nothing to be suggesting I somehow lack the ability to tell my son my plan.

So I texted him and told him I communicated properly; S12 had his nose in his phone and didn't listen. Then I sent a text asking him to stop undermining me in front of the kids. I said they needed to do chores before playing football with him. I told him I did not expect him to help me but at least don't hinder me.

Here is a peek into his maturity. He told me I interrupted his plans to have the kids do chores. (His plans were to toss the football around--talk about teenager mode! Football before chores!) And he said I should not interrupt his plans with S12.

He also weaved into the text that we never got along. Sadly, there is not one person with whom he gets along with these days. (Seems he does not remember texting me thanking me for the company at Thanksgiving.)

I texted back that the kids know they have to do their chores each Saturday. BEFORE they go out. I said this is a normal thing for adults to expect of children. Then I said it is not right that one of us plays adult and the other dangles fun. I said good night and didn't hear back. (Again I have dropped the expectation that he will co-parent. But don't be a roadblock, speed bump and pothole, too.)

When I came home H was in the kitchen. It startled me because he is hardly out of the dorm room. So, I jumped when I turned into the kitchen and ran into him. Then out of my mouthy popped "geez, you scared me. I just didn't expect you to be out of your room." He was silent.

Actually, I find it funny that I blurted that out. He probably has no clue how much he is in there.

He woke up all grumpy. I am sure my lecture did not help.

In retrospect I do think this is a boundary I need to set. I wish I had done it to H's face vs. via text. He is always a different person behind the computer. The kids need to do chores before they leave. H should adhere to that. This is the time for S12 and S10 to begin growing up.

[HaWho]

Hi all- wow, so many newbies joined the MLC forum this week. It makes me wonder how many of the real people I know could be living through this, too.

I have been keeping very busy. This week I went to a holiday party, solo. I had a great night. I really love being around people and this is something that has been stripped from my life with H as he hides from life. I need to get out there more. I laughed so much and met many interesting people. When I returned, the whole house was dark. H did not leave a single light on for me! Even in the worst of his replay days, I left on a light.

Several days ago I told H that I thought he should buy Xmas gifts for his family and I will buy for mine. He said okay. But he had the same look on his face/mannerisms that he had when he once lied to my face pre-BD. I felt no sadness as I told him. It is just common sense. You don't want to be married, then you lose your personal shopper. I was kind but matter-of-fact when I told him.

Here's one funny thing that happened. When we went to grab the ornaments out of the garage, H had to move his packed suitcase to get at the boxes. He heaved it up and swung it out of the way. He was real cranky about it. Job, if you're reading hopefully this gives you a chuckle! I had to turn away to keep from laughing. I pretended I did not notice.

As for me, I am at the point where I limit the time I allow myself to think about H. Each day, I allow myself x minutes and then I change the station in my head and get busy. The fact that he has dug his heels in and said the letter was healthy, even positive, cues me that he is still completely nuts.

Recently I watched The Swimmer with Burt Lancaster. If you are looking for an excellent MLC movie, here it is! (I downloaded Playbox onto my iPad and watched it for free.)

It is based on the short story by John Cheever. The main character is at a neighbor's house swimming when he decides he will walk through the woods and swim at every neighbor's pool on his way back home. At each home something new is revealed about him and his life. I will leave it at that. But, clearly Cheever new MUCH about MLC. He nails it.

I recommended it to H at dinner this week. As I did not stamp the movie name onto his forehead, I doubt he remembered. I wish he would watch this one vs. the Woody Allen movies.

[bttrfly]

Hi HaWho,
Just checking in here to say that something you wrote in this post really resonated with me. I've allowed H's lack of enthusiasm about holidays etc really ruin the past several Christmases for me. So last weekend I bought a tree. It's not trimmed yet, because I haven't had time to but it's up and smells great.

Today I dug out the Christmas lights. Put Christmas lights on the front railings and window boxes. It's a simple but pretty display. Bought a new wreath. Every year I put out the wreath with three snowmen, a mom, dad and boy snowman which also says "welcome to our home" ... not putting that one out this year. Bought a wreath from a charitable organization. It's pretty, simple, festive.

I want to watch the Swimmer now! xoxoxoxo

[peacetoday]

Ha

LOve that you are able to switch the station in your head

That is amazing!!I working on it in other areas of my life too..find it fascinating
The movie sounds good I will see if Netflix has it

Have a good weekend!

[job]

HaWho,
You are doing so well! I'm sure your h was hoping that you would be the personal shopper again this holiday. I think your man/child is going to see a lot of changes taking place in the new year. LOL!

As for the suitcase, OMG! I about died laughing. I guess it's going to stay packed and in the garage for a long time.

I'll have to check that movie out. Sounds interesting.

Happy Holidays to you and your family (as well as your man/child)!

[mleigh4]

Hi Hawho. Change the station, I like that! You sound good...isn't it great when you can go out solo and enjoy things so much!? Without the constant reminder that H is not with you? It took me a long time but I do it all the time now. I can see the same in your posts.

The suitcase is hilarious. I will see if Netflix has that movie!

[HaWho]

Thanks everybody - Bttrfly, Peacetoday, Job and Mleigh! Great to hear from you all!

Bttrfly- I saw on your thread that you were going to a holiday party solo. Listen to Mleigh and trust me, there is much to be gained by going alone. Going with an MLCer kind of holds you back. Usually, the MLCer cannot act normal the whole time and you can fall into the trap of babysitting him through it. Then, it is hard to meet new people because your H seems off and sadly, it does reflect on you/hold you back from doing your own thing. It is all made weirder by you having to act like H is "normal." Of course, people start to wonder if you're crazy too for seeming not to notice that your H is really odd. It all makes it hard to make new friends.

This summer my H used to meet me and a few couples at the beach. It was awful! He would drive separately from me and because the beach traffic is heavy, we looked like morons driving to and from the same house in separate cars. Then, as soon as he arrived, he would go for a walk all by himself for 1 hour. Next on the torture list: he would lay his towel way far away from me and listen to music the whole time (earbuds in). He was like a teenager in a 50 year old body. Then, he would pop up off his towel and go walk to his never married-Viagra taking 50 year old friend's house. Meanwhile, the other dads talked to their wives, socialized, played and swam with the kids. Don't glamorize attending social events with an MLCer!!

Job - I knew you would split a rib over the idea of my H having to heave his suitcase out of the way! All made funnier by he fact that is is SUPER heavy.

Mleigh - it is sad, but as mentioned above I was thrilled to go to the party by myself. I met a woman who rows at the women's boathouse and I think I may try my hand at this. I rowed in college and being back on the water appeals to me right now. Plus, rowing takes a LOT of time. I am looking for time intensive hobbies right now. Ha ha.

So last week I set a boundary with H of kids needing to do chores before fun. Today, I was making a beef stew for the boys and then was going to head out to XMAS shop. Kids had not walked to dog before watching football. So as the game started, I said they needed to walk him. H was in the room and said, record the game and walk the dog. I will praise him before I leave for doing the responsible thing.

When the kids left, H stayed in the room. He told me a few financial things. One of them is something I suggested he do years ago but he disagreed with me. Now, years later, he says to me: you were right about that and I will try to do it now.

Looks like I need to dust off my sticker book of gold stars . . .

[LoisB]

Ha,

Few people, including myself, are able to keep this chaos firmly about the MLC-er. You seem to set these awesome boundaries and move on with your life... keeping his mess squarely on his side of the street.

I'm inspired when I read your thread.

Merry Christmas!

Heather

[HaWho]

Hi Heather - thank you so much for the kind compliment. Honestly, I am VERY impressed by you. You have dusted yourself off, grabbed the baton and taken off! You are a role model to your girls. Many, many women would have shriveled up and wilted away going through all that you did.

Like you, I believe anger can be channeled to propel us forward. But honestly, I think one has to learn how to compartmentalize things. Maybe this is detaching in its truest form?

Trust me, in the beginning of this horror show I was not able to do this at all.
And I still have moments where I cycle back to shock. But they are moments now and I can control them vs. them controlling me. If he loses me, it is his loss and I finally see that.

I did not like who I had become. I liked myself more at 22 then I did a year ago. How awful is that? My H has been pecking at me for years and it exacted a toll on me. It was gradual and I didn't even notice! The letter snapped me awake! It said to me: you have "accepted" and even OWNED that you are the cause of all his problems!

I have a grandmother who was AMAZING. She worked like a tank. She survived two world wars living in the thick of them in Europe. Her family quartered German soldiers and she lost her father in WWI. They hid food in snowmen to keep it from dogs who were sent to sniff out food.

She had a great mantra: get to work and you won't have time for stupid problems.

This is probably akin to: "idle time is the devil's workshop?" As we all are told from the vets: nothing good comes from thinking about the MLCer more than yourself.

[LoisB]

That's the piece I still struggle with... but, it's getting easier. I'm getting to the point where I keep busy and don't think much about the situation until he reaches out and hooks me with a small cup of hope. I need to work harder at detaching until I see action attached to the false hope.

I still use him for a distraction sometimes... life gets overwhelming or boring and he is always a good source for a buzz of energy... Fantasy and reality are two different things.

[HaWho]

Hi Heather - sometimes there is discussion of what is harder: living with/seeing the MLCer or having no contact.

I think, for sure, the very hardest thing is parenting with an MLCer in any capacity. It is excruciatingly painful to see one's own children forgotten, abandoned or minimized. And it is so hard parenting alone.

In some ways, I think detaching may be easier if you live with the MLCer or see the MLCer. This reduces the ability to glamorize or fantasize that he/she is something he is not.

I see my H everyday and there is nothing attractive about all this. Maybe if I did not see him for a while I could fall into the trap of thinking things are not as they are.

But everytime I see him, it's like I just took the ice-bucket challenge.

[BrightFuture]

In some ways, I think detaching may be easier if you live with the MLCer or see the MLCer. This reduces the ability to glamorize or fantasize that he/she is something he is not.

I see my H everyday and there is nothing attractive about all this. Maybe if I did not see him for a while I could fall into the trap of thinking things are not as they are.

I've been wondering about this all along. I think this is exactly the case in my sitch. This is probably what inspired my decision to go to the vacation home this weekend and be in the same company with H.

[job]

HaWho,
Detaching is a unique process for everyone. For me, detaching was far better w/my MLCing h out of the house. Why? Because, at first, I continued to look at him as a mature adult and certainly not the child he became.

It all depends upon the situation and the LBS as to whether it is easier w/them in the house or out.

[LoisB]

I don't find him attractive any more. I can't imagine allowing Matt to put his hands on me. The pull comes from the history together and the man I remember... The teenager. The young married. Even the guy in his late 30s/early 40s...

But, ^^^ this guy is a fantasy. The reality is a 49-year-old pothead who hasn't seen his youngest daughter in going-on two years, makes excuses for this and still blames me whenever he is able to. Not so attractive. I guess I mainly still get hooked wishing on the fantasy of the happy ending with man I loved for so long...

It kinda sickens me, though, imagining the insane teenage stuff he's done... imagine he's done in the past almost 4 years with a gross-drug/party-lovin' skank. That's pretty gross and not what I'm attracted to.

Just sad. No matter how you toss it. Just sad. Especially at the holidays.

[HaWho]

Heather - it is so very sad. Imagine how sick you have to be to walk out on your kids. Imagine waking up to that reality. Ouch.

Yeah, we all want the happy ending. I understand that. Who among us ever pictured our spouses going crazy? I never expected mental problems; physical ones, yes, I could see that. But my H being almost 50 and partying with unmarried men. GROSS. And then cowering from life in his dorm room?

And of course, what makes this so hard is that we are all handed the polar opposite of the person we chose! Right now, I could waltz into the bus station at midnight and find men more attractive. Or, alternatively, the 2am loser lap at the bar is perhaps a more fruitful endeavor. I have nothing in common with this person. And I have kids with him!!!!

I am telling you, when I get to heaven (*if* I get to heaven ) I am going straight to the customer service desk to lodge my complaint. If the elevator takes me to the ground floor, I'll complain to the devil himself.

[tfish08]

^^^^^^ Thank you for the giggle. I too feel like the men at the greyhound station would have a better chance of impressing me than my H does at this moment.

[AJM]

Lodge a complaint? LOL.

I think this was the one that got me the most during that time:

I did not like who I had become. I liked myself more at 22 then I did a year ago. How awful is that? My H has been pecking at me for years and it exacted a toll on me. It was gradual and I didn't even notice! The letter snapped me awake! It said to me: you have "accepted" and even OWNED that you are the cause of all his problems!

I was more angry (after a short time) as to why I did that. What was it about me that accepted that behavior as OK? And more importantly, what as I going to do about it going forward? What was the tempered response (I am older after all and supposedly wiser in some way although I doubt that )?

What helped with some of that?

Imagine how sick you have to be to walk out on your kids.

That was my cold water. Over the years of harassment from her and her new 'love' it's helped me temper my compassion with my urges to fight back. If I fought back, it would have been as if I were assaulted by a mentally challenged person and I took it seriously.

That led to my guiding philosophy: I didn't make her that way. I didn't break her. I can't fix her, but I can figure out my part and control myself. It was and is as simple as that.

I suggest the pull you feel is the reconciliation phase. Not as in get back together or even be friends, but as in the reconciliation of what happened with the person that did it. That may not happen.

As J points out, it's different for everyone whether easier or harder. I had mine in the house for 2 years. I don't think that's easier, personally. It was more like watching a train-wreck in slow motion, up close. I was better off seeing things as they were vs. having a daily reminder of the person she'd become. I have a good memory and didn't really need that.

Part of who I am, is the person that stood. That was for me and I knew it. I'm not sorry I saw it through to the end. But I do note it didn't have to take so long.

Merry Christmas
AJ


AJ

[mleigh4]

Oh, I will be right there with you at the customer service desk!

[LoisB]

Me too. With my lengthy receipt.

[HaWho]

There is probably a whole department that handles LBS/MLC issues. Once we're done we'll meet up at the all you can eat (without gaining a pound) sundae bar.

So, H's obsession with youth has even been transferred down to our poor dog. Recently H tells the kids that they should really enjoy the dog now because this is as good as it gets. He says that right now the dog has peak muscle mass, bone density, etc. and it is all down hill from here. He makes it sound like the dog is going to need hospice care tomorrow.

The age of the dog in human years? 28!

When he leaves the room, S12 turns to me and says: "dad is going to have a really hard time turning 50. He really has a tough time with aging."

Oh gosh, S12 is right--he sees it. I cringe thinking about it. Maybe H finally will have accepted it all by then. Or maybe he'll be in Daytona Beach making "Dads Gone Wild" videos.

[job]

OMG! He's now projecting on to the dog...how sad is that? Can you just see your dog in hospice care? LOL!

Yes, your h is definitely going to have a difficult time w/turning 50 and the entire aging process. Maybe you need to think about getting him some wrinkle cream remover and hair coloring for men. LOL!

Your son is one smart young man.

[HaWho]

Oh Job - it is just insane! If the dog is on the downward slope at 28, I better sleep with one eye open. I am 40! H will may try to sell my organs while he still can. Lol!

S12 is super perceptive. He knows exactly what is going on around here. He was born an old soul. I wish he were more naive.

Meanwhile I just try to do damage control. S10 recently told me that he doesn't want to get any older! When I asked him why, he told me that he is now double digits and this is the best it gets! I didn't have to think too long or hard about who planted that seed in his mind. S10 told me he has been worrying about it for a lonnng time. I asked how long? He said ever since he turned 10 (double digits). So . . . that would be all of 2 months. We laughed about that!

Anyway S10 asked me what there is to look forward to now. OMG! I am telling you, my H strikes everywhere! I told S10 his best years are ahead of him. I told him my best years came when he and his brother entered my life. And this IS true!

I also said: there is joy in every phase of your life. If you spend time only looking in the rear view mirror, you miss it all.

As for H's 50th, I was thinking of throwing him a surprise party. I'll rent a funeral parlor for the night, hire an organ player, dress in black and throw one of those lacy doilies over my face.

[job]

Okay, I've split my sides laughing at the 50th birthday party idea. It's really a good one. Actually a hearse in the driveway decorated with a sign that says "Ain't it nifty to be 50?" on the side. Your h would absolutely die right there on the spot from shock.

Gosh, that's a really good party idea and everyone can dress up like the undertakers! LOL!

[HaWho]

Job - Did not think of the hearse! Love it!

I am liking this idea more and more. I have always loved a good practical joke.

[tfish08]

^^^ thanks for the chuckle

[HaWho]

Hi all - hope you all are doing well! So, the boys and I had a nice Christmas!

I saw many different H's come out to play. Early on XMAS Eve he pulled me aside to talk. This always scares me as in MLC it is usually some perverse conversation that awaits me. But actually he wanted to say we should spend time with the kids and make it fun. I agreed.

After breakfast XMAS Eve I needed to go to the store. H said we should all go and not divide on the holiday. So he shadowed me like a third kid to the grocery store. Even the dog came!

He was at times playful. He rarely drinks (not a drop around me since MLC) but on XMAS Eve he had a beer and even fixed me a drink. He joked if I remembered the time I asked how he knew about AA and rock bottom. He seemed to think that was years ago--so odd their warped sense of time.

At one point he tried to ride S10's bike. This is the second time he tried this, but this time he wanted to pop a wheelie. Like the first time (in spring), the tires flattened to the ground and he was too big to pedal a child's bike. He did seem childlike during this process. It was weird. I just smiled.

At one point he played some old music that we used to joke about. When I didn't say anything, he asked if I remembered it. Then we joked about it. Sometimes he acts like I have forgotten our whole history.

There was a moment where he was very opinionated about a few things. He saw nuanced issues only in black and white; like a teenager. S10 saw the gray and introduced it but H couldn't see it. I listened, that too was all weird.

He watched "It's a Wonderful Life" with us. He told the kids it was about sacrificing and doing what is right for family. That's not what I take from that movie. I asked the kids what they thought it was about. They said it's about appreciating what you have.

As for gifts, H gave me chocolates and two ornaments: a wizard and a fairy. The ornaments are very cute.

The last gift is kind of funny. Here is the backstory. When H moved back downstairs he said the bathroom near the dorm room was now his. But he has not cleaned it once (since October and it now looks like a scene from Animal House.) I usually do the cleaning but not that bathroom as it is "his" and he moved out and doesn't want a wife. Thing is: he hates cleaning and before me he had a cleaning lady. We don't discuss that bathroom but I think he's been waiting for me to clean it. It's like the Cold War.

The other day, we had a worker over and he brought his daughter. She needed to use the bathroom and when I saw her heading that way I practically threw myself in front of H's bathroom door to stop her from going in there. She probably thinks I have bodies in there. I sent her upstairs. H heard the whole thing.

So, hence a gift "to the family" of a house cleaning. He is trying to save face in our little war. Cleaners came today--two of them. They were taking their time. So much so that I went to the dorm room to ask if they were being paid by the hour or a flat rate. (But from the way they were working I knew it was by the hour.)

Here is a glimpse of some of that great MLC logic. When I ask how they are being paid, H snaps "why do you care!" like a teenager. Yikes! I say, they are chatting A LOT and taking their time. He says he never discussed the fee with them?!? Then he says, with confidence that I should not worry because he has never paid more than 100 something dollars for a cleaning?!? Ummm . . . the last time he had a cleaner was in the late 90's for a one bedroom apartment. These women are justified in charging $100 for cleaning just his bathroom. (I am surprised they even could clean it without a hazmat suit.)

Anyway, I just said ok. But later I heard him go check on them.

I must admit, it is nice to have the house cleaned for me! It's a nice luxury after working full time and the hustle of the holidays. Maybe I should have gone on strike years ago . . .

[job]

OMG! You had a visit from the various personalities. I'm glad you were able to figure out what was happening and just rolled w/it. The personalities gave you some insight as to where he's at and it appears that he went back in time to about 10 the other day.

Time is very slow for these MLCers and to him, the conversation about AA happened a long time ago and not just a few weeks ago. I'm surprised he remembers your son's age.

That was an interesting take on It's a Wonderful Life. He's not mature enough to understand what appreciating what you have means just yet...but when he grows up...he will.

As for the cleaning crew, I'm sure you now have a very nice, clean house, especially the frat bathroom. BTW, did they clean the frat room or did he opt not to have that room cleaned? Whatever the reason for the crew coming in, be sure to thank him!

Sounds like a very interesting and successful Christmas Eve and Christmas Day for your household.

Enjoy the rest of the holiday!

[HaWho]

Hi Job - oh, I totally forgot to post that he did not want the dorm room cleaned! Second to his bathroom it is the dirtiest room (by far) but he locked himself in there like a clam. The whole day!

You are good Job, that you could foresee that he might not want anyone touching his room.

There was one last weird thing that happened. The doorbell rang on Christmas Eve. My H grew up in a tough neighborhood. So he sort of always charges the door. It is embarrassing, especially when my son's friend's come to the door! (About the toughest thing that happens in my neighborhood is a dog barks.)

So H yells "who is it?" and it is our sweet neighbor. (The one who saw H pitch a fit when I had the dog off leash.) The neighbor gives a gift to our sons for XMAS.

H thanks him. Then H comes up to me and says (and he is serious): I am a really nice person but this is REALLY nice. This is something that I would not think to do. You think you're nice but then someone does something like you realize you're not as nice as you think.

Then he tells me that the neighbor has memory problems because he stammered a bit when talking with H. I did a great job of shutting my mouth and nodding.

I am sure the neighbor thinks my H is crazy. He saw him throw a tantrum in the street and now he yells at him for knocking at the door. This poor guy was probably stammering from fear. If I were him, I would have dropped the gift ding-dong ditch style.

[job]

I can just imagine what the neighbor thinks about your h's behavior these days.

Actually your h is living in the past, so asking "who is it" could be very normal for him. He's still reliving his past, poor man!

Well, the gift certainly made him think twice for just a second that he's not as nice as he thinks he is. Very telling on his part. LOL!

I'm sure the neighbor may have some issues w/memory, but who wouldn't when converted w/a man who is acting strange. LOL! Stammer? He's lucky he was able to get anything out after that "who is it" question behind a closed door. I'm sure the neighbor left your place shaking his head and wondering if your h is experiencing a brain tumor or on drugs.

As for the frat room, I'm not surprised it wasn't cleaned. They don't like for people to mess w/their "stuff". It has to smell by this time and gosh, it's got to be filthy. Yuck! You'll need a gas mask to go in there some day!

Any way, be sure to thank the neighbor and I'm sure he's got the men in white coats on speed dial for the next time your h goes off the rails in the yard about the dog.

You've got to laugh about this stuff. If you don't, you'll end up in the loony bin for sure.

[mleigh4]

Job, you are so right about having to laugh about this stuff. It takes a while, but eventually, it gets easier to!

Hawho, sounds like you had a nice Christmas. Your H and the bike, my H and the scooter, I really do think they would get along well! I love the house cleaning, what a treat! I too was thinking of you guys, so glad it went well

[bttrfly]

Dropping in to say Merry Merry ... seems like y'all had a nice day ... you, the boys and Sibyl... I love your sense of humor Ha... that's how I know that no matter what happens here you will be fine.

Enjoy the nice clean house. Tempted to get you police tape for the dorm room. Funny image of you running to the icky bathroom to save the innocent, lol.

xoxoxo

[Sotto]

Yes, the 'not that toilet!!!!' moment made me laugh out loud. What I want to know is - how far would you have gone? Flying rugby tackle maybe? Maybe you could put a huge Red Cross on the door, or set up a decontamination chamber outside - just in case someone makes it through the rugby tackle?!

That is funny that your H arranged cleaners and that he wouldn't let them near his room. There's a teenage ring about that for sure....

I agree that it is a good opportunity to thank him for the thoughtful gesture though - and lucky you, having a nice clean house - except dorm room of course...

Glad you made it through another Xmas anyway. I do admire your equanimity in the face of your H. I can manage it from a great distance - up close, I doubt I would fare nearly as well as you.

Enjoy the rest of the season xx

[HaWho]

Hi Mleigh, Bttrfly and Sotto!

Mleigh - so funny you got a scooter! I am telling you, we need to arrange a play date for our Hs. One time they can go over to your H's and be Boy Scouts, then they can come over to the dorm room and hang like teenagers.

Bttrfly - I laughed out loud at the Sibyl comment and the police tape. So true!

Sotto - also laughed out loud at the flying rugby tackle image. Too funny! Here is the thing, to make matters worse, the gal was pregnant! I was worried her child would have 13 fingers after using that bathroom!

Last night, H came out of the dorm room and decided he was going to a movie. And I thought, oh, here we go again. (Remember the few times he just up and leaves like a teenager as though I am his mom and his kids are his brothers. It so weird!)

Anyway, he actually asked us if we wanted to see a movie at the same time but different from the movie he was seeing as he was seeing a rated R movie. What a family guy, eh? (So like a teenager not wanting to be with his family in public.). I said yes! He checked his movie though and his was sold out.

We decided to go bowling. By the time we arrived it was a two hour wait for a lane. H asked if we could go over to the little arcade and we all played a pinball tournament.

H really went back in time. He never plays these kinds of games but he played several and he really looked like a teenager while doing so. It was so weird to watch. It is hard to explain but he just carried himself as a teenager. You know that pose teenagers do while they are standing around? He did that!

He snapped at me at one point and I realized I was definitely his mom to him. Literally, his real mom. And that is not a beloved person so I stayed real quiet for the night.

After he snapped at me he ignored me completely. He did not make eye contact with me or look my way.

When we returned to the car, his socks were outside the door on the ground. (He had brought them for the bowling shoes.) He was surprised they were out there. I told him one of the bowlers must have borrowed them and was now returning the sweaty, used up socks. Even he laughed out loud at that.

The kids teased him on the ride home with this random joke they created. S12 kept asking H if he wanted Szechuan chicken. I don't even think they've ever eaten that?!? (Very random but such is the mind of a 12 year old.) H tried to be all serious and told them it was not funny. He was more like a teenager trying to act cool than a grumpy middle aged guy.

Then H sort of orders S12 to stop and told him it was not funny. S12 said: "it is okay if you do not want Szzzzzzechuan chicken." We all laughed out loud because when he says "Szechuan chicken" he drags out the "shhhh" sound. But even "too cool teenager H" was laughing and when we all "caught him in the act" he laughed even harder.

It is really hard to make an MLCer see humor. That is the first time I have seen my H laugh out loud in a long, long time. He probably needs physical therapy today since those muscles used for laughing have been dormant so long.

[job]

Sounds like his mood was just a little be over the top. I'm so sorry he snapped at you, but you realized very quickly what was going on w/him. Always try to remember...it's not you...but him.

MLCers can't see the humor in things and they do take things very seriously...but I'm glad he finally lightened up enough to laugh. Yes, he's going to need some PT today because those muscles had a workout last evening.

Keep up the good work.

[LouR]

HaWho, one day you should print out your threads and make them into a book, you give me such a chuckle.

I know this is no laughing matter and its you that is having to live with this daily, but you do it so well, the fact you have managed to find humor in your h and his antics makes me completely in awe of you.

xoxo

[AJM]

And as a suggestion, you could make it a sit-com style with the stammering neighbor and joke telling 12 year old.

I'm laughing already.

[HaWho]

Thanks LouR and AJM! Lol at the various characters, AJ!

100th post so new thread here:


http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=newpost&Board=28

[Cadet]

Fix link above

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2636043#Post2636043