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#2626380 11/24/15 09:48 PM
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My first thread was titled "Avidya" which is a Sanskrit word whose literal meaning is ignorance, delusion, unlearned and unwise.

Here is a link to Avidya:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2597117&page=1

My second thread was titled "Vidya" which is also a Sanskrit word whose literal meaning is correct knowledge or clarity.

Here is a link to Vidya :

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2601644&page=1

My third thread was titled "Sati-sampajanna" means a clear understanding of reality appearing in the present moment.

Here is a link to Sati-sampajanna :

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2607958&page=1

My fourth thread was titled "Panna-vimutti" which means deliverance through wisdom.

Here is a link to "Panna-vimutti" :

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2614294&page=1

My fifth thread was titled "titikSate" whech means suffer with courage or patience, bear with firmness, endure patiently.

Here is a link to "titikSate" :

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2621248&page=1

The name I have chosen to title this thread is the Sanskrit word "kavikratu".

kavikratu means one who possesses wisdom or sacrifices, full of discernment, having wise designs, having the insight of a wise man or fully wise insight.

I do not possess this quality now but hope to by the end of this thread. Thank you for all you support during these difficult months.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2626727 11/26/15 04:12 AM
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It appears that my wife is satisfied with the current living arrangement. Her interactions with the kids are pleasant and positive. Speaking to me only when it's necessary is tolerable so I have something to be thankful for tomorrow. I am grateful and appreciate my situation. Happy Thanksgiving DB family.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2626783 11/26/15 01:00 PM
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Mutatio, happy thanksgiving. From where I sit, you already are a wise man. You always shed light for me on my sitch, and for others as well.

Hope you have a great holiday! Enjoy it


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Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
mutatio #2626785 11/26/15 01:04 PM
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I have noticed that people disappear from the board over time. I knew this would happen in my head. Now that I experience it my heart grows heavy. It reminds me of the impermanence of life and everything in it. I guess losing people on the board is a metaphor for our lives. Be well



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2626793 11/26/15 01:44 PM
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Hey Mutatio,

About the board I notice too, there seems to be a lot of turn over. I see new users all the time. I am almost 6 months into this. It would be interesting to see the numbers on it, number of new members to the group, and how long people stay here. Its a great place as I would be in a padded room right now if it were not for this group.

I guess you are contemplating when you are going to leave this group?


Me late 30's
W mid 30's
T 15, M 10
S4, S7
ILYBNILWY June 2015
In house S July 2015
W rings off Oct 2015
My ring off Feb 2015
Separate houses June 2016
vise82 #2626803 11/26/15 03:11 PM
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It does get a bit overwhelming at times to see all the new names and then others just dissappear. More troubling when someone new just searching for answers falls off after a few posts. As hard as BD is for many of us it makes you wonder what happened to them. That or someone who's struggling with suicidal thoughts just suddenly stops posting.

That's just the hard reality of the people that come to the site. Many of us come here at the lowest point in our lives and there are some that don't survive it.

I hope for the best with many of them but I know there are some posts in these archives where a person said there last words and it troubles me at times. I guess that's something we all have to be thankful for today, life.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Fogg #2626825 11/26/15 05:19 PM
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Mutatio, I hope you are having a great Thanksgiving. You are one of my favorite posters and I hope you aren't planning to leave the board!



mutatio #2626828 11/26/15 05:36 PM
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Just making an appearance to say I was thinking of you all. Part of the fading away can be that life gets busy once you allow it to happen rather than over-focusing on our Ss.

Have a great Thanksgiving!


Me: 50 W:43
S6, S3
M: 12 yrs. T: 17
M is bad & Not happy Bomb Mar '14
S 5 Feb '15
D Bomb 13 Apr '15 (but "no hurry")
DB Coach May '15
Wants proceed on D Aug '15
Starting 1-on-1 negotiations Sept '15
asitis #2626842 11/26/15 06:21 PM
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Happy Thanksgiving Mutatio! All that wonder are not lost, my friend. I would imagine that this board is going to a be coming and going spot for most of us for a while.

My thoughts are with you and your family today.

Big man hug,

PP


M 39 W 36
T5 M3
BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day
Served 9/15
D finalized 6/17
PigPen #2626938 11/27/15 01:05 PM
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Hi, I commented about missing my good friends and they come by and say hello. smile I was reflecting yesterday about all the things I am thankful for and you all were on the list. I would not be where I am now without you.

I am not leaving the board. If it appeared that way, it was because I was sad because it seemed some of you were. I am happy to interact with anyone here but there is something special about some of you. When I wandered into the DB camp lost and confused I was given shelter from the storm. I will never forget the kindness I was given. This is where I felt the compassion I was not getting at home. So with that said, please know you are loved and I care deeply for your well being.

What is interesting is without the distraction of the physical presence we are share our true selves. We share a different connection then the people in our everyday life. They are distracted by the wrapping paper, a lot of them never see the gift. You are all gifts to me and I truly appreciate you.

Thank you for you kindness, compassion and patience, you are truly loved.

Last edited by mutatio; 11/27/15 01:07 PM.


“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2626949 11/27/15 01:44 PM
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Well said mutatio. It is amazing that we all can bare our souls to complete strangers here, and have no fear in doing it.

You are a great person. Thank you


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Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
dday #2626957 11/27/15 02:32 PM
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This board has been a life saver. The days I couldn't get out of bed and thought I'd never survive, I came here. I read and read and just knowing that I was not alone in my pain and confusion helped tremendously. I am thankful for that!


Di-mond in the rough
M-45 H-38
My children S-25 D-23
T 5 M 4
H left April Fools Day 2015

One day at a time!
Di-mond #2627049 11/28/15 03:02 AM
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My wife has pulled so far away from me I feel uncomfortable being in the same room with her. I feel uneasy looking at her. She looks away if I look at her. When my daughter tried to have a conversation with both of us she would only respond to things my daughter said. It stings a little but does not hurt like it used to.

I am past the pain. I enjoy my kids. I enjoy my life. The only disappointment is my marriage and I plan to give it time and see if it can evolve. We'll see.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627078 11/28/15 12:43 PM
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Sorry mutatio, I can see how frustrating your circumstances are. Just remember what she's doing is about her and not you so don't take it personally. I read a book lately on 4 agreements we can make with ourselves to live happier. One of them is never take anything personally and I can say it's helped me alot this year with not letting what W is doing crush me.

Not sure if you have said before, but have your thought of getting a DB coach? I know it's expensive but just having some clarity and direction is a huge help.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Fogg #2627087 11/28/15 01:12 PM
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Hi Fogg, your another early riser. I have a great IC I really like and see her each week. The IC is out of network so we pay 50% of the cost. I cannot afford a DB coach also. My IC agrees with DB views and sometimes suggests thing that you fine people say to try, so I will stick with my IC.

My only disappointment is seeing my wife sad and/or depressed. She goes to IC also. There is nothing I can do about it . I respect her wishes and make life pleasant within the house. I cook, run errands, maintain the yard, do the grocery shopping and so on. I do these thing by choice and harbor no resentment. I want my wife to be better, she is struggling and that saddens me. I am being patient, kind and compassionate. Hopefully time will heal her wound.

Suggestions, thoughts, ideas?



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627197 11/28/15 10:35 PM
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Beautifully stated Mutatio, there are so many gifts in our this awfulness, we just have to look for them. Even in the worst of the worst, we can chose to find the blessings. It's our choice though.

How are you coming on your goals? How was your Thanksgiving?

Last edited by PigPen; 11/28/15 10:35 PM.

M 39 W 36
T5 M3
BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day
Served 9/15
D finalized 6/17
PigPen #2627221 11/29/15 12:21 AM
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Mutatio, you are a strong man. It always impresses me how well you carry yourself and the kind words you have for everyone. At least your W is seeing an ic. There is hope there! It is true that we shouldn't take these things personally, but it is about the hardest thing to do.

Keep up the great work, and be the lighthouse for your W. You inspire us all


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Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
mutatio #2627226 11/29/15 12:40 AM
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Mutatio if noting else then stay to kick my but from time to time

You have pulled me up from the low points and yes it is amazing how caring the people are here

We are all on this journey and the comments on people not making this hit me hard I have been very low at times but with the help of many people here I know I will get through this

Thank you my friend

From the stubborn one

Ghost


Me:48 W 41
M:18 T:26
2 D 18 & 4
2 S 17 & 13
Bomb: 20/7/2015 in house separation
D filed 06/17
Separate houses 10/17
D Final 29/12//17.
ATPeace #2627237 11/29/15 02:33 AM
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Ghost, it's so nice of you to come visit. I have been pleased with what I have been reading on your thread. You are moving forward and I am happy to know your feeling better.

dday, thank you for the compliment. I struggle with them. I have a strong urge to do the right thing. I spent many years showering myself in selfish behavior. It is important to me to give 100% to this process. It may be easier for my wife to decide if I continued to be the selfish egocentric fool that I was but I reject my past behaviors and never want to be that man again. That rejection fuels my strength.

PigPen, I got nothing but love for you brother.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627240 11/29/15 02:49 AM
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Stay the course She is with you. You are an amazing man. Stay the course


M: 27
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09/15 -OW confirmed
Jpeg #2627243 11/29/15 03:02 AM
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Jpeg, thanks, I'm smiling at your thought. smile I have to tell you, I have a special attachment to you because we are on the same timeline. I know it seems silly but your special for me. Be well



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627347 11/29/15 03:17 PM
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Mutatio - that is so sweet of you to say, your support means a lot. I am trying to Gal. Today my sisters and I are going to take our mother on a Christmas tour. And then i am going to get our house decorated for Christmas and start preparing for our trip:)


M: 27
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09/15 -OW confirmed
Jpeg #2627349 11/29/15 03:20 PM
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Got nothing but love you for you back Mutatio.

Anything planned for this Sunday?


M 39 W 36
T5 M3
BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day
Served 9/15
D finalized 6/17
PigPen #2627465 11/29/15 10:42 PM
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PP, I just got back from dropping my daughter off at the train station. She is on her way back up to Boston where she attends university. I miss her already.

Jpeg, We did that yesterday. We do Christmas and Hanukkah so it's a gift extravaganza for the kids.

I have questions for you good people.

Should I get my wife a gift for the holidays?

Are you? What is your reasoning?



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627470 11/29/15 11:01 PM
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My D said WAH told her he is buying me gifts for the holidays. The thought didn't cross my mind! Having you all on the board is gift enough for me.

Fogg, as a newcomer to the boards, most of the time I don't post because I'm reading all the posts, learning from them and trying to keep everyone's stories straight. That works best for me.


Buttercup

Me 50 H 51
M 17 T 20
D16
H EA Feb 2014
BD Sept 2015
H moved out Nov 2015
W Filed D papers Mar 2016



mutatio #2627474 11/29/15 11:17 PM
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Mutatio, we are a mixed Jewish/Christian family too, but we dropped hanukkah because I was the only one doing all the work for both and I finally realized if it didn't mean anything at all to the Jewish person in the family, why do both.

I am getting my H a present. He has asked for a men's clarisonic skin care system. A $200 skin care appliance- just perfect for a MLC. (I am terrible I know.) I got the women's version last year and I love it.

H asked me what I wanted and I said jewelry. I think I will reconsider because we will probably break up and I don't want anything sentimental. I am going to ask for tickets to go see Elton John. I can take a friend. Any volunteers?



Butterc #2627475 11/29/15 11:19 PM
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Mu, I am not planning on it. I got her a gift bag full of various little thoughtful gifts for her bday, and she seemed touched. I suppose I will take the boys shopping for her presents, if they ask. I'm sure that her parents will too. I found a grandmother clock that I was thinking about buying her, but then I got settlement papers. So, kinda took the fun out of trying to buy her a nice and thoughtful gift.


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Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
mutatio #2627506 11/30/15 02:03 AM
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I don't know what to do about Christmas present for H this year. He completely ignored my birthday and our anniversary although last week he asked (texted) for ideas for Christmas Presents for ME and the kids. I think that was his guilt talking? After what I learned about him this past weekend I don't know if M can be saved


M: 27
03/15 - BD ILYBINILWY
09/15 -OW confirmed
gonegrl #2627507 11/30/15 02:05 AM
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Hey pho I LOVE Elton John!!


M: 27
03/15 - BD ILYBINILWY
09/15 -OW confirmed
dday #2627508 11/30/15 02:06 AM
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Last spring my wife said that she does not want me to make her anymore gifts. I made some fine pieces for her, not junk, not second rate, top shelf work. So I will honor her wish and never make her another thing.Now I will create for my children and one day for my grandchildren.

I do not feel in a giving mood. I am in love with a women who will not talk to me. I love her but do not like her right now. I do not think I will give her anything. I have to think about this.

Thoughts?



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
Jpeg #2627511 11/30/15 02:09 AM
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Jpeg, if you want to take a road trip.......

Dammit, our wedding song was an Elton John song.

But then again so was a very memorable moment with my exbf. So H does not own my Elton memories!



mutatio #2627512 11/30/15 02:10 AM
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Mu, I was once told that a gift should reflect where your relationship is, not where you want it to be. My r is gone, even though I want a happy m, so I am getting her nothing.


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Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
mutatio #2627515 11/30/15 02:15 AM
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Mutatio - do you make homemade gifts? what kind of gifts do you make?
I think if she said not to then don't. It makes the decision easy for you


M: 27
03/15 - BD ILYBINILWY
09/15 -OW confirmed
Jpeg #2627540 11/30/15 04:10 AM
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Jpeg, I've become bitter thinking of the things I've made, the time I've spent, the effort I put forth and for what? To hear don't make me anything else. If I am making these things for her out of love I feel for her and she says that. What does that mean? The way I feel right now I want to gather it all up and throw it away. I made wood and metal chachkies, picture frames, wooden sculpture, metal wall art and outdoor metal sculpture. I bought a outdoor swing bed with beautiful cushions and hung it from a large sycamore tree in our yard.I then planted flower beds all around it. She has no interest in any of it or me I guess.

I don't want to give her a gift. I want to take them all away.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627580 11/30/15 01:04 PM
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Mutatio don't be bitter- be better! Keep making your gifts but for your kids. My dad was a carver and some of my most cherished things are the various carvings I have from him (loons and figurines, candle sticks and bowls- things like that). Theses are things our kids will remember you by and pass down for generations. What amazing gifts to give!!! Make them for your children and they will be cherished


M: 27
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09/15 -OW confirmed
Jpeg #2627586 11/30/15 01:26 PM
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Thank you Jpeg. I feel better now and I will follow your advice. I was felling sorry for myself and vented. I wear my heart on my sleeve.

I don't understand how your husband or any of the husbands could treat their wifes so disgracefully. A women that loves you, wants to work to save the marriage, what a gift. Jpeg please remember its not you, it's him. You are a beautiful soul and deserve better then this.

Again thank you for the support.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627609 11/30/15 03:30 PM
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Gifts are tough and each situation varies.

For me gifts are for giving so it is the giver who decides. I have struggled this year each occasion to decide if I wanted to give something. So far I have always wanted to so I did.

Christmas may be the first time I decide not to. I don't like my W too much lately though I love her a lot.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2627617 11/30/15 04:21 PM
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Thanks for sharing roiste. I am on the fence but leaning towards no gift. If I'm not feeling giving I will not give. I must remain true to myself.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627631 11/30/15 05:29 PM
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Hi Bud

I'll put it like this. Your workplace has fired you; you're surplus to requirements. Would you send them a Christmas card/gift? It's gonna be hard. You guys in the US do Thanksgiving as well as Christmas/New Year, so it's another heartache for you to fall in to.

Seriously, the action of not giving her a gift will weigh more on her mind than yours.

I don't post often on your thread as you're doing well. I do read though. Keep going.


M 45 W 52
SD22 S9 D8
BD 6 April 2015
Not living together 4 Dec 2015
Huddy #2627669 11/30/15 07:55 PM
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I forgot to mention yesterday I have be sober 7 years or

220,838,400 seconds or

3,680,640 minutes or

61,344 hours or

2556 days or

365 weeks and 1 day

I am proud of myself smile



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627671 11/30/15 08:01 PM
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Happy Birthday Mutatio. That is quite and achievement and worthy of celebration. I am glad you told us!

Congats!!!


lots of love

JellyB XXXX

JellyB #2627674 11/30/15 08:07 PM
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Great job. You are right to be proud. Of that and of your current stance.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2627685 11/30/15 08:32 PM
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Congrats Mu! Keep it up!


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Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
mutatio #2627720 11/30/15 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: mutatio
If I'm not feeling giving I will not give.


I think it's THIS that is what is important.

Do not decide whether or not to give her something based n what you think she will do or say afterwards. You cant possibly predict what that will be. Decide your action based on what you think is right.

I am hesitant to say that you should give her NOTHING as I dont think that you want to treat the woman you love in that way. I would think something small and thoughtful, like you might give someone at work would be appropriate. Or even just getting one of her favorite foods or something to have in the house around that time.

Just my opinion though.


In any case, congrats on the milestone.

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Mutatio congratulations on 7 years sober!! And thank you for your words of encouragement. It has taken me over a year to feel a little "normal" again. I really have to start living MY passion I was very comfortable living in H shadow - time for me to step into the sun


M: 27
03/15 - BD ILYBINILWY
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Thank you all for your support. It was not hard to do because I saw what the drinking was doing to my marriage and my children. I spent hard earned money to pour poison down my throat and damage the people I love. This was selfishness. My only regret is that I believed the drinking caused the problems and abstinence would solve them. We were in a marital crisis and needed professional help. That was then and this is now.

My wife owes a friend a homemade gift and asked me last year if I would make a particular thing for her to give to the friend. I had said yes but because the equipment was not working at the time so I was unable to make it. I have the equipment fully functional now. She has forgotten about it and will most probably will blow off the debt. This would be a surprise for her. My questions is:

Should I make it as a gift to my wife knowing she will give it to her friend?

Should I give her a gift so she fulfills a debt?

Should I make her something after she said don't make me any more gifts?

Is this a passive aggressive way of defying her?

I need your help, I am stuck.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627863 12/01/15 02:21 PM
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Amazing milestone mutatio, something to be proud of.

I think your thinking about this gift too much. What is it you want to do regardless of what she wants, thinks, or reacts?

If you said you would do it and want to keep to your word, make it give it to her and be done. No expectations about what she will do or say. If she asks you just answer honestly "I said I would make it when the equipment was working, so I did".

If you don't want to, then don't.

I'm sure by your questions you might be looking for a specific reactio. I also see you questioning your own motives, nothing wrong with that. I question my own motives all the time and rethink things. Generally if the motive is mostly to get a reaction out of them it's not likely to work out the way you want.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Fogg #2627871 12/01/15 02:56 PM
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Thanks Fogg. I am leaning towards making the gift. I will give it to my wife on Christmas after the gifts opening is done. I will give her the gift I made for her friend unwrapped. I will fulfill my debt but it will not be a wrapped gift under the tree. I still may buy her something small but I can't decide.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2627912 12/01/15 05:51 PM
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Mutatio, congratulations on your sobriety!

And I like your approach with the gift for your w's friend. It seems like the right thing to do.

I am going to treat my H great on Christmas. He does not "deserve" it but he is still my husband and this might be our last Christmas together, so he is going to get treated well. Whether my thinking is dysfunctional or loving I don't know.



gonegrl #2627926 12/01/15 06:41 PM
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Holy smokes Mutatio! 7 years is bad ass!!! Good for you my friend. I haven't even hit the year mark so guys like you are my idols. What an amazing gift you've given to yourself and your family for 7 years.

I'd say with the gift, do what's going to make you happy. If giving your W something lights up your day, do it. If giving her nothing makes you feel better, do that. As of now this is about you, not about her. I'm not sure if my W is going to get anything from me, if she does it will only because it makes me smile - even if on some level it upsets her that I'm still on the high road.

Congrats again and thank you for being another example of masculine strength in my life.

PP


M 39 W 36
T5 M3
BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day
Served 9/15
D finalized 6/17
PigPen #2627956 12/01/15 08:17 PM
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I wish we could do a DB secret santa gift exchange, I'd much rather give gifts to my DB friends than to my H right now! But I will anyway.



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Mutatio

If it's important that you fulfil your promise I would simply make the gift for the friend.

HAND it to W before Christmas unwrapped is my suggestion, so she can wrap it as she pleases for HER friend.

You could chose to wrap a second item for W so that she and her friend have similar items. You can gift with the kids.

Secret Santa Pho. I am giving Kinder Eggs this Christmas as secret santa.

Seven years is quite an achievement, acknowledgement is part of your story.


V

Last edited by Vanilla; 12/01/15 11:26 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2628044 12/02/15 12:46 AM
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My son is obsessed with Kinder Eggs! We can't get them in the states but he watches the YouTube videos over and over!


Me:33 H:36
T:13 years
M:10 years
S4
Separated 05/15
H Filed 06/15
ep0215 #2628061 12/02/15 02:29 AM
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Thank you for your support pho, pigpen, Vanilla and ep0215. I have been thinking what Azzork and pho posted earlier in this thread and it gave me pause. I decided to look online for something for my wife. Not 10 minutes later I found something I loved and bought it for my wife. I wanted to, I thought long and hard and I wanted to.

V, I will follow your advice and give the friend gift to her as soon as I can. I tried to start today but life got in the way.

I really appreciate you, my friends. Be well



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2628253 12/02/15 07:52 PM
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That is why you are a better man than me (besides the fact I am not a man). I got my H a Chia head! But every time I think about him opening it, I laugh my tush off smile

The point is, the gift should make you feel good. It no longer matters if they feel good. They will feel however they choose to feel.


Me: 42
H: 45
M: 18 yrs T: 20 yrs
D: 17
D: 15
S: 12
I kicked him out 8/21/15
I will DB until March 21st 2017, that is it!
Mona52 #2628383 12/03/15 11:15 AM
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Thanks Mona. I woke up an hour early and couldn't fall back asleep. I was thinking about how my wife won't talk to me. She said once last spring that she just doesn't have anything to say to me. What hurts is that she won't even make an effort to try.

I have been looking at different things I could do if this marriage ends in divorce and they all amount to running away. I can't run away from myself. I am struggling to maintain my PMA.

This could be as good as it gets.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2628385 12/03/15 11:23 AM
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Mutatio, you are a good man. You don't need to run away. You and I both need to find ways to cope, but running away won't help. Just prolongs pain. I always avoided everything, so this is one of my 180s.

Keep moving forward


35
3 boys
Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
dday #2628398 12/03/15 12:55 PM
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Mut,

I don't have the time to reread your threads but I have few questions that I was wondering about. Just so I understand better your si.Sorry if it is repeating something already covered.

Firstly how is your W in general?Is she happy, depressed,eetc?Is her life good? Does she GAL a lot? Does she moop around the house? Is she negative or positive in general (a part from interactions with you).?

In your opinion or her words why is she still there?

How do you act around her? Are you silently churning everything in your head or are you actively present?

You are stronger than you give yourself credit for. Enduring this situation would have many reaching for a bottle to get through.No matter how bad, you have kept dry. That shows character.

A lot of what you say here shows strength and character. I don't think that you want to run away but rather turn the page. It is understandable and normal.

Regarding interactions with W, is there something you can do to change the dynamics. After repeated subjection of such interaction it is normal to assume nothing can change it. And you don't want to force or pressure it. But don't assume......ttry something different.

My real advice for you now, is to choose some really special and challenging gifts to make for your kids (and maybe something for you) and concentrate on that. Give it your all.... time, effort, heart and especially focus.

Hearing your pain I am not convinced that divorce is worse than continuing as is. We bare it as a passage to something better.Thus is not as good as it gets


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2628415 12/03/15 02:51 PM
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Thanks dday and roiste for the support. I think I may be floundering due to lack of goals. I'll give that some today.

roiste, I try to do this fast, clock is ticking.

how is your W in general?Is she happy, depressed,eetc?Is her life good? Does she GAL a lot? Does she moop around the house? Is she negative or positive in general (a part from interactions with you).?

She enjoys her work. She shifted her hours to work with manager 9-10 am to 7-8 pm. Partially for work, partially to avoid me. Seems down at home, perks up some with kids but not enthusiastically happy. Her life is okay, she works at home on line, surfs web, reads and watches tv. She retreats to her room after dinner and maybe a little kid hanging out. Nothing like before. She does not GAL most of the time, occasionally she will have dinner with girl friends, maybe once every 3-4 months. Mope's around house, not really but seems down and stays to herself a lot.She used to be positive, now neutral to a slight bit negative.

In your opinion or her words why is she still there?

I said I'm not going anywhere till youngest graduates high school in 2 1/2 years and she could move out if she wanted. She said days later I would not leave you alone with kids. I think that she really agreed with me but would not admit it.

How do you act around her? Are you silently churning everything in your head or are you actively present?

I say good morning each day. Other then that I do not speak to her unless she speaks to me first. She does not share anything other then household management. I am silently churning everything in my head.

Is there something you can do to change the dynamics?

Not sure, any recommendations.

I do not want to divorce. I want my wife back. I think I need to engage her, get her talking to me. Help me please.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2628436 12/03/15 03:51 PM
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Congratulations on the 7 years.
I guess one day at a time is the way to go.
You have a lot to be proud of. Well done!

Also, your homemade gifts sound wonderful. You're wife is really cheating herself.

Gmum #2628444 12/03/15 04:07 PM
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In so many ways Gmum, in so many ways.



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mutatio #2628459 12/03/15 05:03 PM
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Morning mut,

How are those goals coming along?


Me: 42
H: 45
M: 18 yrs T: 20 yrs
D: 17
D: 15
S: 12
I kicked him out 8/21/15
I will DB until March 21st 2017, that is it!
Gmum #2628486 12/03/15 06:43 PM
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Mutatio, I want to run away too but my youngest is just 9. What are you doing around the house while she is moping? I have been spending way too much time on my laptop, I noticed that it helps my frame of mind a lot if I get off the computer about a half an hour before H comes home and I put on music and start a game with the kids. Or I will cook or even clean, but for me doing anything sedentary when H is around brings me down- just way too much quiet energy I guess.

What does your son think of all the quiet? He must realize something is going on.

Also, as much as I understand the hell that the silent treatment is, let me assure you that when my H finally started speaking up it was just awful. The things he says are horrible.



gonegrl #2628634 12/04/15 04:47 AM
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Thanks for stopping by and the support pho. It always make me feel better. You asked what I do around the house. I do my thing, hang out with son, house chores, cook, watch tv or surf the web. My son plays his xbox online with his friends. I cook dinner and hang out with him. I'm not sure he can hear the quiet with his headphones on. I think he is a bit of an avoider like his mother.He knows we're in separate beds, there is no fighting at all and we talk about all household issues so life seems okay to him. So until he struggles or asks I'll let it go. I am sorry your husbands words are hurtful. It must be so hard to see those words come out of his mouth. Your a really good women to love him when he is so tortured and hurting you. Be well



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2628698 12/04/15 03:04 PM
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Thanks Mutatio. I was asking about your son because he might realize a lot more than you think. My D is 14 and she has figured it all out and has very strong opinions. But I think girls are more in tune emotionally to their surroundings than boys, my 12 year old son I really think has no clue but my 9 year old probably does. I am not sure what to tell them, just trying to act normal and focus on parenting, the same approach that you are taking.

I have talks with my D though because she brings it up. Trying to give her some reassurance and also keep her out of my marriage at the same time. She wants me to leave him, she has some good points, but I can't let a 14 year old have a voice in my marriage. It is hard with kids, I am scared that they are absorbing all of this tension and it will come out in some destructive ways later on.



gonegrl #2628717 12/04/15 04:29 PM
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Someone once said to me , about kids, don't worry about what they hear you say, worry about what they see.

Pho, you said "She wants me to leave him, she has some good points, but I can't let a 14 year old have a voice in my marriage." This is a perfect time to model and display what your trying to do. How you took an oath in marriage vows and are keeping your word. Explain to her the importance of following through on a promise, even if it is doing something you don't like. Explain that her father needs help, he's struggling and that you must be the strong partner for him and the children. This is a teachable moment for her and a great way to forge a stronger bond. She seems insightful and mature for her age, probably a street wise kid. This could bring you two even closer. Not a voice but an understanding of what a strong woman must do.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2628725 12/04/15 05:09 PM
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Thanks M, that is pretty much what I tell her. That I love my family, that I am committed to each member of the family and that sometimes means putting my own needs or wants on hold when someone is struggling- I remind her of her recent hospitalization and how I didn't judge her behavior and I was there for her and will continue to be, and now Dad is struggling with his own issues and our marriage has some issues, and please be patient with him and find it in herself to be respectful to him, and also understand it is not her problem and that she needs to focus on her own stress management and school.

She told me that she hates the way he treats me, he doesn't treat me with love or respect, and she thinks I deserve better. I tell her thank you for caring about me, but she doesn't see the whole picture, and then I refer back to what I already said. In our last counseling session I asked her more clearly in counseling to stay out of the marital issues, that it was a boundary she was crossing and maybe she could discuss it with her IC. She seemed to "get it" but it is a hard situation.



gonegrl #2628748 12/04/15 06:15 PM
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I am figuring out some dynamics. H always does worse emotionally after we see his parents. It is clicking with me now. He always blamed it on me, said because I complained about them, or confronted an issue with them, etc, but in the last year I have kept my mouth shut and been easy going. Yet he still is so emotionally intense for a week or two after we see them. He needs to work this out with his IC, I can't of course bring it up, but I see what is happening and there is NOTHING I can do about it.

It will be interesting when he is gone for 6 months and his parents want to visit the kids. I will not deny them access to their grandchildren, but I will enforce my boundaries and without H here to triangulate things I think it might be actually better for them to visit when he is not here. Will cross that bridge when we come to it.

After every visit- no I don't think it, I know it- H and the IL's have a "debrief" session about my behavior, and I believe that is what sets H off. So even though I am "out of it" and not participating in any conflicts or making any complaints, I am still "in it" because of this weird dynamic.

My biggest concern right now is if we do divorce, this whole dynamic is going to intensify to the point where it is going to be an even more unhealthy situation than it already is and I worry for my children. OK, not going there, I don't know the future.



gonegrl #2628749 12/04/15 06:32 PM
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I just realized that I posted on your thread and not my own Mutatio! Sorry to hijack, I forgot which thread I was on.



gonegrl #2628838 12/05/15 02:09 AM
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This is one of those difficult moments for me. It's 9:00 and my wife is not home from work. She has thrown herself into work and has said she has feels no urge to come home to me.

It's lonely here, I will reevaluate my goals tomorrow. I will try to keep myself busier.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2628839 12/05/15 02:18 AM
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Thinking of you mutatio, I hope you can find some peace tonight. Remember that her urge not to come home is about her, not you. I get how they can self mediate with work, it just lets them escape from reality and my W has done the same. It doesn't solve any of their problems, it just delays facing them.

So what can you do tonight to take your mind off of her. Any movies you could watch or shows that you like? Maybe go for a late walk. Beat up one of her pillows. Make yourself a snack.

Many things you can do that will make you happy, don't let what shes doing control how you feel all the time. Don't just try to keep busy, find things that you really enjoy and do them.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Fogg #2628845 12/05/15 02:43 AM
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Thanks Fogg. I guess I'll plan my next project, maybe I'll go to the store tomorrow morning. If this keeps up, I may fix everything in need of repair.

I would be in a dark place if it wasn't for the support of you and all the other fine people on this forum.

Is the best course of action for me to be pleasantly supportive to her and keep myself busy will she processes her feelings and emotions?



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2628848 12/05/15 02:58 AM
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It might be your best option, but theres no guarantees with anything. I think part of what you said makes sense but the part that concerns me is where you seem to be waiting around for her to process her emotions.

What happens if she never does, or if she decides she wants a D? I know its not what you want to hear and it may not happen, but its something we have to accept as a possibility. Were not waiting around for our S's to do anything, were moving forward and living our lives while they live theirs. At some point in the future those two paths may join back up but you cant hold off on your life to wait for her. Find what makes you happy in life and do it. Lets explore what mutatio wants, what will make him happy, what he desires to do (other than be in a loving relationship, that's outside of your control right now).


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Fogg #2628859 12/05/15 03:27 AM
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Fogg, that's exactly what I'm doing. I am keeping myself busy until she comes around. I am the stoic hero waiting patiently for her to see how deep my love is for her. I feel if I give up my hope and do not wait for her, she will see it and quit. In other words if I quit she'll quit and if I wait for her she may change her mind.

I have things I do and I like doing them. Besides that I am home with my kids while she works. I chose them because they will not be available forever. Sooner or later they will have their own lives and move out of the nest.

I miss the emotional intimacy of another person. I get enough here to remain sane but it is not enough.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2628900 12/05/15 12:01 PM
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You can keep the hope things may work out and still move forward with your life. Something my coach asks me almost every time we talk is "what are you doing for John?" and asks about the things I'm improving about myself. He wants me to find those activities that puts a spring in my step and makes me happy so that when I do interact with W, no matter what shes doing, I'm happy with myself. This is the confusion that sets in with the WAW wondering "why is he so happy?" and they get curious. Its good your finding activities that you enjoy and spending time with your kids. So, step that up a notch and

That fear of "if they think I move on then they will move on" is one many LBS's tell ourselves from the beginning of BD. While there might be a tiny bit of truth to it, allowing that fear to be in our mind does more harm than good. Being happy with ourselves and enjoying life doesn't mean we move on, even if the WAS wants to use that as an excuse. Being miserable and holding onto the M keeps us from the growth we could have if we focused our minds on other things. The only way I can see the WAW really believing we are done and given us is if we start a new relationship with someone else, are cold to them and never interact, or just fully cut them out of our lives and go completely dark.

No one is ever saying give up or lose hope, just to find what really makes you happy and do it. If your doing that then great, keep it up. I know that loss of intimacy is hard, I miss it also. But when I really evaluate my M I had to ask myself if I even had it for a long time. I didn't. Me and my W communicate better right now than we have in years.

Maybe your situation was different but when BD happens us LBS's tend to glorify the M we had before in our minds. We focus on the good points where there was intimacy but forget and ignore all of the bad points. Its the opposite of what the WAW does, they only see the bad and ignore the good.

That or we focus on what the M could be in the future which has no grounds in reality. Its possible we could have a healthy relationship with them but its also possible we never would.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
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Good Morning Fogg, thanks for the response. I do have things I love doing. They are part of my GAL activities and also at home on the weekend. The "if they think I move on then they will move on" feeling is there, sometime stronger then other times but it's there. I'll have to work on that. Since my wife's affair in '08 I have glorified the marriage. It in reality has not been healthy in a very long time.

I knew that I was motivated by the fear of if I give up she will give up too. I thought I had to power through that fear to reach my goal. I will now strive to be a husband with a PMA and available but happy following his hobby/passion. Time for another evolution.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2628911 12/05/15 01:15 PM
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Mutatio, I agree with fogg. Do what you can to be happy and maybe it will make W curious. I had the fear of letting go... believe me, I am the poster child. Now, I am trying to shift my thinking. If I do let go, drop the rope, whatever... she will see that I am not going to be plan b. That should give my W reason to think. May not get a positive result, but I can focus on me and my kids.

Mu, you are an awesome and helpful man. Maybe this is a 180 that can help your W realize it too.

Good luck!


35
3 boys
Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
mutatio #2628912 12/05/15 01:16 PM
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I'm thinking about you Mutatio. Good luck with your GAL activities today, I hope you have fun and find some contentment. I have a busy day today too, but really all I want to do is curl up in bed and sleep all day. I'll be thinking of you as I am keeping busy, searching for my happiness. Hope you find yours.



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Thank you pho, your thoughtful kindness is exactly what I miss here at home. I am lapping it up like an over heated dog drinking cool water on a hot summer day. I'll catch up with you tonight because I have things I want to create.

Enjoy your day

Last edited by mutatio; 12/05/15 01:58 PM.


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mutatio #2628968 12/05/15 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: mutatio
Julie, I have been thinking about my responses to questions on your thread. In retrospect I think I was heavy handed in my answers. I am sorry for dumping on your husband.

I thought about what drove me to respond the way I did and I found the answer. Part of it was my resentment from my frustration in dealing with my own situation. Part of was your husband's choices and my moral code. Part of it is my psyche, I know it is not right but I find it easier to beat up on a male then a female.

Again, I am sorry for injecting my baggage into the response I offered you. My emotional struggle is below the surface and if I am not vigilant it can leech into my actions.

With that said, I believe you are the only one who has your best interests at heart. Be well Julie, be strong



Lovely Mutatio,

This is a great post to JulieH. I say that not because your apology was needed. Part of posting is the fact that we all slip in and out of telling our own truths that reflect our journey. Julie asked for empathy and support and your post was forthright in sharing your opinion. But this is not why your post is great.

Your post is great because, for me I getting a glimmer of more of who you are. What your drivers are. Where you hold yourself accountable.

"Part of was my own frustration and resentment in dealing with my own situation" . Tell us more

"Part of it was your husband's choices and my moral code". What choices have you indentified that made you reflect on your own moral code? What happens when you operate outside your moral code?

" Part of it is my Psyche, I know it is not right but I find it easier to beat up on a male then a female". What's triggered here for you? Who has been beaten up in the past, the present the future?

"My emotional struggle is below the surface and if I am not vigilant it can leech into my actions" . This worries me. I

I wonder if containment has become so much of a practice in your life and in wife's life, that letting go of emotion feels like it "leeches" and needs you to be "vigilant". Please do not mistake the intent of the comment, I too I am "container" and not just a "leecher" but an "exploder".

But balance is required.

My worry Mutatio is that containment is not about a healthy management of emotion and containment does not lead to resolution of emotion, it maintains itself. I wonder if you have a case of better in than out? Neutrality in emotion is by far an easier way to end suffering Mutatio but sometimes to rid ourselves of some suffering it needs to be felt and overcome.

In Brene Brown's work, she talks about how naming feelings of shame allows you to release it and you feel better. Admittedly she says choose wisely who you talk about it too. I'm not sure if shame is your thing. It could well be something else.

I loved this post Mutatio, is the first time in a long time, I have seen you talk and be vulnerable just about you and your stuff. This is where your freedom is.

Please take my words as they are intended, with great kindness and respect. I know you have done a lot of work in therapy and maybe all of the above is redundant. Maybe you are not here to scratch around in the dirt, maybe this board is more a place of seeking solace and companionship in a time when you feel isolated in your home and relationship. It is one of the reasons I remain here. Then please ignore the above.

Always with respect and love


JellyBXXX

Last edited by JellyB; 12/05/15 07:16 PM.
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It was very kind of you to give me such a thoughtful response to my post, thank you. Your words are appreciated. I am happy to share my journey of self discovery with you. I am here for many reasons, the primary reason is to find truth. To walk the path of truth one must be discerningly reflective of one actions and beliefs, open to new lines of reasoning and a desire to adapt to a enlighten evolution. I find solace and companionship here but they are not the reason for being here. I am here to find truth and share it. So I would love to answer your questions.

"Part of was my own frustration and resentment in dealing with my own situation" . Tell us more

I have spent my life designing and constructing objects, analyzing designs and modifying them to function in a efficient manner. My childhood experiences and this skill set do not provide me the background necessary to repair my marriage. Another part of my frustration is that I am powerless in the marriage right now. My wife has shut me out and is working on herself. While this occurs I can do nothing to repair the marriage. So my frustration is the inability to bring effective change to this situation. I think it would be healthier to see this as the universe has provided this opportunity to me so that I can evolve and become a better version of myself. At this time my role in this marriage maybe to provide quiet support to my wife.

What choices have you identified that made you reflect on your own moral code?

In the past I was selfish and egocentric. I became aware of the impact my behaviors were having on my wife and kids in 2008. I realized I had ignored doing the right thing for selfish reasons long enough and would now re purpose my life to bring light into their world. Self medicating through booze was another behavior that caused reflection.

What happens when you operate outside your moral code?

I sometimes get carried away in the moment, like the post mentioned above. After the fact when I have time to think about what I've said or done and I realize where I have erred. At that point I try to repair my mistake because I want to do the right thing.

" Part of it is my Psyche, I know it is not right but I find it easier to beat up on a male then a female". What's triggered here for you? Who has been beaten up in the past, the present the future?

My father was verbally abusive to my mother regularly. I watched my father hit my mother once. I have a strong aversion to the strong imposing their will on the weak. My mother and myself were verbally abused by my father in the past. Until 2008 I was a insensitive selfish fool and put myself before my family. In the present I beat myself up for what I have done. This must be true because I just started crying. In the future I hope no one is beaten up including me.

My worry Mutatio is that containment is not about a healthy management of emotion and containment does not lead to resolution of emotion, it maintains itself. I wonder if you have a case of better in than out?

This may be useful, I struggle with compliments. I do not know how to manage them. They make me uncomfortable. I usually make a self deprecating comment. I have struggled all my life with being assertive. I ask nicely, repeat myself, become frustrated and then do it myself. Or if it was my kids I would then yell. This was a major reason for my mismanagement of myself in life.

Thank you JellyB, I love you, you are a beautiful kind caring soul. I aspire to become like you and I am thankful to have you in my life. Be well



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2629117 12/06/15 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: mutatio
Thanks Fogg. I guess I'll plan my next project, maybe I'll go to the store tomorrow morning. If this keeps up, I may fix everything in need of repair.

I would be in a dark place if it wasn't for the support of you and all the other fine people on this forum.

Is the best course of action for me to be pleasantly supportive to her and keep myself busy will she processes her feelings and emotions?


Mutatio, this is exactly where I am too. We both have the same flawed logic. Our spouses may never process their feelings. I know that I am waiting. I am keeping busy and trying to improve myself, but I am waiting on him. I know its not the way we are supposed to be looking at this whole thing, I can see the flaw in the logic when you post it, or someone else, but truthfully that is exactly where I am right now also. The sad thing is that I think it will be when we actually stop waiting and literally do move on that will be the thing that brings our spouses back. And then we won't want them at that point. I am starting to see how that is one viable ending to this whole mess.



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Happy Chanukah everyone



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2629185 12/07/15 02:41 AM
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All I want for Chanukah is a cup of hot chocolate with a good friend. Good night Mutatio!



gonegrl #2629208 12/07/15 04:47 AM
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My wife was nicer to me today then in a long time. I used to get excited about the possibilities. Now I know to enjoy it but not view it as a sign. I really miss that smile and appreciate it every time I see it.



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mutatio #2629211 12/07/15 05:31 AM
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Cheers my kind hearted friend. I hope her smile warms you all day and night, even if it's fleeting.

You have such a kind soul Muatatio, I think when you combine it with the dormant strength that's probably been looked at only as anger and thus hidden, the best version of you will come out. The fierce compassion that's in there somewhere. You can't write the way that you do without it.

Keep digging Mutatio, you may not be able to control the outcome of your M, so put that control that's desperate to be used to getting after your goals, taking care of yourself and growing your heart.

Your W gives you an opportunity when she hides her smile - the opportunity to shine for the both of you. When she lets it out, let it fill you up.

There is more to you than your W may be willing to realize, show her anyway. Show her by being so strong and calm that the combination of both coming together infuses every room of your house with the undeniable feeling of confidence and compassion.

PP

Last edited by PigPen; 12/07/15 05:32 AM.

M 39 W 36
T5 M3
BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day
Served 9/15
D finalized 6/17
mutatio #2629226 12/07/15 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: mutatio
It was very kind of you to give me such a thoughtful response to my post, thank you. Your words are appreciated. I am happy to share my journey of self discovery with you. I am here for many reasons, the primary reason is to find truth. To walk the path of truth one must be discerningly reflective of one actions and beliefs, open to new lines of reasoning and a desire to adapt to a enlighten evolution. I find solace and companionship here but they are not the reason for being here. I am here to find truth and share it. So I would love to answer your questions.

"Part of was my own frustration and resentment in dealing with my own situation" . Tell us more

I have spent my life designing and constructing objects, analyzing designs and modifying them to function in a efficient manner. My childhood experiences and this skill set do not provide me the background necessary to repair my marriage. Another part of my frustration is that I am powerless in the marriage right now. My wife has shut me out and is working on herself. While this occurs I can do nothing to repair the marriage. So my frustration is the inability to bring effective change to this situation. I think it would be healthier to see this as the universe has provided this opportunity to me so that I can evolve and become a better version of myself. At this time my role in this marriage maybe to provide quiet support to my wife.

What choices have you identified that made you reflect on your own moral code?

In the past I was selfish and egocentric. I became aware of the impact my behaviors were having on my wife and kids in 2008. I realized I had ignored doing the right thing for selfish reasons long enough and would now re purpose my life to bring light into their world. Self medicating through booze was another behavior that caused reflection.

What happens when you operate outside your moral code?

I sometimes get carried away in the moment, like the post mentioned above. After the fact when I have time to think about what I've said or done and I realize where I have erred. At that point I try to repair my mistake because I want to do the right thing.

" Part of it is my Psyche, I know it is not right but I find it easier to beat up on a male then a female". What's triggered here for you? Who has been beaten up in the past, the present the future?

My father was verbally abusive to my mother regularly. I watched my father hit my mother once. I have a strong aversion to the strong imposing their will on the weak. My mother and myself were verbally abused by my father in the past. Until 2008 I was a insensitive selfish fool and put myself before my family. In the present I beat myself up for what I have done. This must be true because I just started crying. In the future I hope no one is beaten up including me.

My worry Mutatio is that containment is not about a healthy management of emotion and containment does not lead to resolution of emotion, it maintains itself. I wonder if you have a case of better in than out?

This may be useful, I struggle with compliments. I do not know how to manage them. They make me uncomfortable. I usually make a self deprecating comment. I have struggled all my life with being assertive. I ask nicely, repeat myself, become frustrated and then do it myself. Or if it was my kids I would then yell. This was a major reason for my mismanagement of myself in life.

Thank you JellyB, I love you, you are a beautiful kind caring soul. I aspire to become like you and I am thankful to have you in my life. Be well


Thank you Mutatio for responding to my post to you.

Your whole response resonated so much for me. I see much of myself in your comments. Anger and conflict scare me. I am a naturally peaceful and passive person. I do however have a temper when I feel misunderstood or not appreciated. It doesn't come out has angry, rather tears flow and I become emotional beyond all reason.

Knowing that I don't want to see this side of myself to come out, because this person, this ME, is manipulative and unkind and has at times been abusive to my partners. So I contain my needs and wants and appease and avoid any conflict at any cost, and the cost more often than not has been me.

Isn't interesting that by attempting to avoid the thing we hate most unkindness, anger, violence, we create it.

I read your post Mutatio and I see the man you are, it is unmistakable that you have aligned your beliefs and values with action. My sense is however that your internal self, the one that looks you back in the mirror and knows where all your vulnerable places are, isn't quite convinced that you are indeed a good man.

JulieH has kindly brought to my attention the nasty habit of self deprecation and I have had to look this widely in the eye in the last week. I wonder if you too would benefit from an up close and personal look at this one.

When I read your posts it clear the work you have done to be a better husband and father. But I do wonder if Mutatio will ever allow himself off the hook for not being those things sooner. My sense could well be wrong on this. I'm not sure if you have ever fully forgiven yourself for being less than. And I am not quite sure if you can't forgive yourself, how can W?

With the two loves that I have been fortunate enough to have. I spent most of the relationships if not all feeling less than. My self contempt has been a legacy from childhood. Unfortunately it has sabotaged my relationships. Mr Ex and Mr M, both wanted an equal, a partner, someone who valued themselves as much as they wanted to value me. My intentions in my relationships were always honorable, much like yours. However my inability to truly see myself as a equal, to truly give and receive resulted in their demise.

How can any partner respect and love you, if you can't do it for yourself. I have spent the last 14 months forgiving myself for not being the perfect partner, the person, the perfect child.

You are no longer the drinker, the yeller, the bully, the imperfect child, the imperfect husband. You just are!

I'm not sure if any of the above makes sense. I hope there is some value in it for you. I learn lots about myself posting to you Mutatio. So thank you for your patience with me.


Love and light

JellyBxxx

Last edited by JellyB; 12/07/15 08:25 AM.
mutatio #2629323 12/07/15 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: mutatio
My wife was nicer to me today then in a long time. I used to get excited about the possibilities. Now I know to enjoy it but not view it as a sign. I really miss that smile and appreciate it every time I see it.



I LOVE how you are trying to live the life of ZERO expectations! Without your pressure, she is free to smile more often. People love to smile and laugh, but it is so hard when you are expected to smile and laugh.

Just take the smile as a moment of pleasantness and see if maybe you can get another one next week. Don't look for one before then. You might be surprised that if you do not look for it, it suddenly appears.


Me: 42
H: 45
M: 18 yrs T: 20 yrs
D: 17
D: 15
S: 12
I kicked him out 8/21/15
I will DB until March 21st 2017, that is it!
Mona52 #2629801 12/09/15 07:03 AM
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When we are told love is a choice, the originating emotion within us is a state we choose to keep and direct towards others. The others are the choice, staying in the state is a choice. Other emotions have choices too, anger disgust sadness joy and fear. Having the emotion is involuntary, keeping in that state, chosing to hold on is a choice.

Similarly another has choices, they can choose to feel love anger disgust etc about us.

Each of us chooses it is our bodies our thoughts and our beliefs. Just because we feel love for another won't mean they feel that for us. They can choone differently.

Our love may be intertwined with a feeling in the other which is counter to the one we require. For instance my stbxwh told my L "I love V". This triggered great fear in me, PTSD in fact. I prefer he said he had zero feelings. If this were true, his feelings, his choice, then the greater the love then the greater my fear. I love WH and am unafraid of my own love, it is his statement that causes me fear not my own. Consider if my feeling was disgust or sadness rather than fear in response to his statement. The more the love the greater the response in the other.

In this way love is personal to us. As LBS we hold it dear, it is our strength and grounding. I think our choice to hold this love in our hearts is a brave one. Do so without expectation of reciprocation. The other may choose to respond to it with another emotion.

You wait until your W responds back with love. This is her choice, and she is more likely to make that choice if she senses you are letting go. I believe this.

Mutatio, you are capable of great love, that of itself is remarkable. You perceive you have no power, that isn't so, you have the power over you, change your dynamic and the interaction changes. It must change as one or the other changes. You don't need me to remind you, you change you and who you are.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 12/09/15 07:09 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2629855 12/09/15 01:45 PM
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Thank you for thinking of me V. I have experienced brief moments of insight along the lines of what you have described. I believe I am headed in that direction but it seems I am taking a serpentine approach to get there. I am okay with this as I am evolving other ways simultaneously.

I would love to continue our exploration of my mind if your up for it. Thanks again for taking the time to share your wisdom with me.



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mutatio #2630089 12/10/15 12:26 AM
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Take your time. The journey is as important as the destination.

Mutatio, I am a great supporter and fan.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2630208 12/10/15 11:16 AM
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Thank you V, your support helped me evolve to this version of myself. If your a fan of me now, your going to love me in the future. smile

Not much to speak about. Everything is nominal. Enjoy your day everyone.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2630214 12/10/15 11:46 AM
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Mu, you are a rockstar. Keep up the pma, and keep working. You are already someone only a fool would leave!


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Not my circus, not my monkeys anymore....
dday #2630251 12/10/15 01:41 PM
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Thanks dday, your kindness is appreciated.

I was not going to mention it but it is seems to be effecting me more then I thought today. At lunch time today, seven years ago, my wife stepped through the door and went from a EA to a PA. The last few years it was not such a bad day. This year is different. I'm down because forever this day has added meaning. Today seven years ago was the beginning of the end. She said this summer that the marriage was over then and she just didn't realize it. That the last seven years she was fooling herself and subsequently me.

For those of you who think I am always wise, patient, kind and compassionate man, you may want to skip this paragraph. As much as I am down I am angry. This woman who pledged an oath to me stabs me in the back. She does not tell me it's bad. No, she pulls her passive aggressive bull sh!t and meets up with some POS, strike one. Now seven years later she turns inward and won't give me the time of day, again passive aggressive bull sh!t, strike two. If she doesn't get herself together and choose a life with me by the time my son graduates from high school, at this moment I'm seeing strike three and she's out. I'm no "f"ing prize but I know I can find someone who will say good morning to me, make at least brief eye contact with during a conversation, someone I am allowed to touch. This is "f"ing bull sh!t and it will not go on indefinitely.

Whew, I feel better. A good rant is cathartic. I love her very much but two more years of this will be the point of critical mass.

Last edited by mutatio; 12/10/15 01:41 PM.


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mutatio #2630273 12/10/15 02:52 PM
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I am not on the board much these days. It is a great place and as you know a super support network. But I couldn't not reply here.

You are phenominal. Seriously. Supporting your current treatment shows strength. Staying after affair shows character. Giving up drinking shows guts and wisdom. But you are phenominal to remain signed up for another two years.

Your anger is justified. Feel it and release it. It is not your friend. Accept it as it is normal but find s way to get past it. Don't let it fester. The feelings of missing simple signs of companionship and affection is also normal. I am sure that that is in my future and yours. For the moment we have reserved that spot for our wives. Until the time we decide to remove that preference, we are willing to put up with shite with the aim of giving what we want the best chance to happen. During this crap time when we can rise above being bogged down by feelings, we are becoming better men and ultimately better partners. This will stand to us and we are also learning so much about good relationships and any future R will have a better base.

The only thing I can assure you if is that your situation will not continue indefinitely as it is. It will change. That is s fact. Time will tell what direction it'll take.

I asked you a Q a while back about doing something different.I don't have an answer for you but I asked it to get you thinking of something to try. Maybe st family meals share a joke.Anyway people in our situations easily get it into their head that they have tried everything and nothing did or will work . I am guilty of that too. It is not a good mindset to have.

Even if I don't write again soon, know that my best thoughts are with you.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2630281 12/10/15 03:15 PM
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Thanks for taking the time and effort to support me roiste. I am trying to display my evolved nature indirectly through my interactions with my kids. Her too, but she is not around much.

This is all I can think of that may work. Live a good life with a positive outlook and behavior. Treat everyone well and strive to model good behavior in a independent manner. This is my path. If anyone has a suggestion please share it with me.



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mutatio #2630357 12/10/15 06:35 PM
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Hello Mutatio, my very dear and supportive friend. I am so sad for you today. Roiste's advice was right on target, my advice and words would not be as good. Although we have never met, and I don't even know your name, I feel a connection with you that prevents me from thinking and responding logically and in good "DB" style. I am angry with your W, angry that she cheated on you, angry that she has not been honestly participating in the marriage, angry that she is neglecting and rejecting and hurting you.

Perhaps it is because our stories have so many similarities, perhaps it is because in some odd way you remind me of my H, the "good" H prior to BD (and I don't know why but you do), but I lose my objectivity with your sitch and I just want so much for you to feel loved the way you love her, and to be treated with the respect and compassion that you demonstrate daily for her and for those of us needing a friend here on this forum. You are a good man.

I am glad you are feeling angry, because I think you are too hard on yourself. I think some anger is healthy and necessary, and in your case, very well justified. You are entitled to feel anger, and you should not apologize for it or think it makes you seem weak or impatient, or unkind. It makes you a human being who has been betrayed and dismissed and is reacting with normal healthy feelings. I don't know what to tell you to do with that anger, but I don't think you should apologize for it. Feel it, own it, know that it is deserved, and please find a way to move on.

Is there something you can do for yourself today? Something different maybe, some thing that will bring you a little peace and nurture your soul? My "happy place" is not far from you, when I lived in your part of the world I would hike the Ken Lockwood gorge, have you ever been there? It is so peaceful, no cell phone reception, feels like you are a million miles away from the world. Just watch out for bears! I wish you peace and comfort Mutatio, and I want you to know that this too shall pass. You will be loved again fully and better than you were before. Your son is unbelievably lucky to have such a role model for a father. I am lucky to have you as a friend on this forum. You are a good friend to so many, I think many would agree. Hold your head up high, no shame in feeling angry.



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Mutatio

Anger is good you know, a great motivator for change. Enjoy it, use it to change, make shift.

Direct it to action.

It is absolutely completely ok and will be part of the Kubler Ross cycle. Make the anger white anger rather than red. It will give you true grit and determination.

I really mean enjoy your anger, get a great boost from it.

It's just this phase to moving on. It will assist in the letting go.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Thank you Vanilla, Thank you pho, I was glad to have your support and friendships today. I needed to voice my unhappiness to the universe about the state of my marriage. The only place I can talk about my marriage is here and that's why I posted it. I was not angry after my rant. I was a bit sour during the day but it wasn't to bad a day.

I was tempted to remind my wife what day it was tonight but decided against it. I do not see any upside to reminding her or discussing it with her.

She seems so far away. I really think the odds are long that this works out. My gut say's she's done with me, this marriage and wants out. I think she is doing time till my son graduates. I will continue trying to improve myself to be the man I want to be, not for her, for me.

It's so hard to see her slipping thru my fingers.



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2630679 12/11/15 08:26 PM
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Mutatio, the anger might be good to help you detach.

How do you feel most days? Are you depressed? Are you content? Somewhere in between? I worry that you are very hard on yourself, and living in this situation for another 2 years is really going to wear on you. I am not encouraging you to give up, just trying to get a feel for your general well being.



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Originally Posted By: mutatio
Thanks dday, your kindness is appreciated.

I was not going to mention it but it is seems to be effecting me more then I thought today. At lunch time today, seven years ago, my wife stepped through the door and went from a EA to a PA. The last few years it was not such a bad day. This year is different. I'm down because forever this day has added meaning. Today seven years ago was the beginning of the end. She said this summer that the marriage was over then and she just didn't realize it. That the last seven years she was fooling herself and subsequently me.

For those of you who think I am always wise, patient, kind and compassionate man, you may want to skip this paragraph. As much as I am down I am angry. This woman who pledged an oath to me stabs me in the back. She does not tell me it's bad. No, she pulls her passive aggressive bull sh!t and meets up with some POS, strike one. Now seven years later she turns inward and won't give me the time of day, again passive aggressive bull sh!t, strike two. If she doesn't get herself together and choose a life with me by the time my son graduates from high school, at this moment I'm seeing strike three and she's out. I'm no "f"ing prize but I know I can find someone who will say good morning to me, make at least brief eye contact with during a conversation, someone I am allowed to touch. This is "f"ing bull sh!t and it will not go on indefinitely.

Whew, I feel better. A good rant is cathartic. I love her very much but two more years of this will be the point of critical mass.



Lovely Mutatio,

This post was beautifully authentic and human. I hope you experience some easing from the release of this energy. I know it sounds a little ridiculous but I have been hoping to see such a post from you. I am hoping to see what you do with anger that isn't all old school (past behaviour) yelling, but isn't shut down and not dealing with it either - which is the Coey (co-dependants way). I agree wholeheartedly with V on this one too.

Pho mentioned recently to you that you both are in this act of waiting, a holding pattern. As Pho rightly said, the WS feels this energy of waiting and they know that their S is still fully engaged and invested. I do wonder if this is why you don't see a happier more contented W. Because she has not yet felt your detachment. Or potentially W and Mutatio are little more than mirroring back and forth the same emotional tone - on the outside cool, polite aloof, but underneath quietly angry or raging about the state of the nation. Is this a stalemate? I am by no means an experienced DBer but I wonder if some of current goals and strategy would warrant review. DB coaching??? I know doing what works is DBing, but what if doing what works is maintaing the status quo. Maybe Roiste's words are worth pondering.

Anyway Mutatio, I like seeing you a little fiery, I'm all for a peaceful soul and life, but not entirely at the loss of passion!

Much love and light to you Mutatio!

JellyB XXX

Last edited by JellyB; 12/11/15 10:44 PM.
JellyB #2630848 12/12/15 01:29 PM
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