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Zues126 #2627051 11/28/15 03:47 AM
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Zues, I feel as if the only times I have empathy for my husband are after I read your posts. Thank you for sharing, I was not aware of that incident in your relationship history. As an outsider reading in, I can appreciate your honesty and commitment to your wife. I can also understand how your wife would have been hurt and perhaps mistrustful as well.

Truth is, I know my husband feels similar to you. i would like to offer female view because I know a lot of men on these boards experienced this as well.

After sons were born, my entire being was devoted to ensuring they were safe and well provided for. It was instinctual. I had no other desire other then to hold them. In fact, if I could live that moment nursing and holding them in my arms for eternity, I would be in absolute bliss. As I'm sure you know, these same hormones cause a major decrease in libido. I loved my husband greatly, but at that time he had to be second. Factor that in with serious sleep deprivation, extreme anxiety that something could happen to the babies (later found out 1/5 moms experience this), nursing which physically drains you,
Painful scarring from surgery or delivery, a new post baby body that is by no means sexy and left so weak and susebtible to all sorts of biomechanical dysfunctions, and the stress of not knowing what to do with these innocent beings who are completely dependent upon you. I think new moms are the most neglected population out there. I was 100% mom as well because they needed me more. it was not about me anymore, it was about them and their survival. I assumed my husband was on same page and understood and felt the same way because he loved the children as much as I did and would sacrifice as much as i did.

I did not intentionally neglect husband. Physically and emotionally I was spent. I needed help and support and patience. I could barely make time for a shower and just did not feel sexy at all. Because of the lack of sleep (in our case this lasted close to 2 years), I kept getting sick and it was just really difficult. Regretfully I unfairly blamed husband for a lot. And I focused too much on what he wasn't doing instead of what he was. I see why he slowly distanced and detached into work.

Presently, There is nothing that bothers me more, then him complaining about how I did nothing for him while he was out providing because I felt my role at the time was so much more demanding (I also worked part time when they were still infants). When he says this, I feel completely unappreciated and misunderstood. I feel like he just has no empathy for me and does not understand or appreciate the fact that my being 100% mom to our children is my way of showing him how much I love him and our family. To neglect me and the kids was in my mind the ultimate insult.

You did stay and you wanted to work things out. My husband did not. Said he wants to reconcile but can't. Don't see the difference. All I see right now is a man that only cares about his needs and happiness and a man that wants to punish me because I tried to be the best mother to his children.

Last edited by JulieH; 11/28/15 03:54 AM.

Me: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
Physically Separated 7/2015
Maximus #2627057 11/28/15 05:14 AM
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Maximus, I have only read some of your posts from earlier, and I have to catch up on recent ones. There was one incident where you had a talk with her and she responded more intimately. I believe you also mentioned that she enjoys reading erotic novels.

From a female perspective, when men communicate with us about non-superficial things we connect more and feel more intimately inclined.

Also, if she likes erotic novels, Perhaps verbal is her love language (I never actually read the book..it depresses me because my husband is gone and we can no longer work on things) but if that is true, do you think a lot of verbal compliments and expressing to her your desires for her might help improve intimacy? She seems to take great pride in working out. Do you tell her how good she looks and how much she excites you? Probably important for her to know and hearing this said out loud might excite her. I think for many women it's an ego thing. Women get turned on knowing they are attractive and desired.


Me: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
Physically Separated 7/2015
JulieH #2627059 11/28/15 05:49 AM
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I think the disconnect is the great debate about whether physical affection for men is a want or a need. It seems that most men agree it is a need, and most women tend to assume it is a want.

I know my STBX could've written the same thing you just did. For my black and white thinking this infuriated me. I told her that physical affection was a need for me. She clearly never believed that. And I can tell you don't either.

Because you don't deprive a need. For example, she never would've let the dogs go without food or water. Because those are needs. She wouldn't simply let one of our dogs die in it's kennel for lack of water. And if she did she darn sure wouldn't say "it wasn't my intention to neglect my dog, but since I have children now...". No. She'd understand it isn't about how she feels, or what else she has to do. If she has a dog she needs to find a way to make sure it has what it needs to survive.

If that dog scavenged through the house, and by rooting through the garbage was able to just eat enough to survive...though light weight, sickly, and in a lot of pain...it might act not very friendly at times. It might beg at the table. It might bark for attention. It might even attack if it was truly in survival mode. I suppose then it's a bad dog. And if the dog could talk and say "I am perishing in pain and need food and water, I'm angry that you're not giving it to me, I'm being neglected", would you respond "I am not neglecting you, I am taking care of the cats all for you". Hmmm. That doesn't fill you up when you're unable to sleep because you're having hunger pains.

So when he says he can't R...how could he? Pretend for a minute that you had a NEED that your partner considered OPTIONAL. How could you put your trust in that person? How could you remain in that situation? You truly can't. And it's clear you consider this optional if you'd excuse neglecting it for years.

It's easy to say "Oh, c'mon, sex is not a bloody need, no one was STARVING to death, what a manipulative whiny analogy, totally lacks understanding of what it was like", etc. That's the outlook many women share. I could argue all day about how if my W is in a coma, or gets deathly sick, etc, etc...would I leave? If not, this then proves I don't NEED physical affection. But this isn't the case. There is a monumental difference between being unable and unwilling. Monumental. Unable means act of God. Unwilling means misunderstood, neglected, diminished, disrespected, and so, so much more. Bottom line, I'm just trying to help you understand the chasm between the two of you in his eyes.

Trust me, I know it isn't one sided. I fell short in my M in many, many ways. Of course to me it seems like this was the entire issue, and my issues were all about how I struggled to deal with this. But I know she would feel the exact inverse with a lot of validity. Frankly I'm so wearied of thinking about it I didn't want to reply, it's like it brings me back and I have PTSD. Right now I'd rather never talk to another woman again than go through that again. And that's not an exaggeration. But if God wants me to open my heart to someone again I won't be the one saying it's impossible. I just know the first thing I'll do is find out which side of the want/need fence she sits on, or just as importantly if she's willing to place is much value in my views and feelings as in own or whether she'll just do what she feels is best and persuade herself I was wrong to feel differently.

Anyway, sorry if I'm coming across as attacking, or blaming, or judging, or anything. I'm sorry you're here and that you're hurting, I'm sorry that your M is falling apart, I hate all of this as much as you do. Hope you find some peace and contentment this weekend.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Maximus #2627060 11/28/15 06:05 AM
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Maximus, just wrote Julie a long post and not ready for another book, but want to answer some of the questions.

I don't know how to define the difference between an EA and what happened with me. The lines blur. One big difference is that there was nothing done or said that would've been regarded as inappropriate. EA's are a betrayal in the outside world. Inappropriate conversations, confessions of love, romantic fantasies, sharing souls, etc. With me if you'd followed me around with a camera for 3 months you wouldn't have been able to ransom me for enough to buy a KitKat bar. So I'd say it was more of an inappropriate desire.

As far as how I handled it, well...first it took some time for me to truly understand what it was. I was in denial for a while, and confused as to how I was feeling. When I finally realized it was truly inappropriate I tried different ways of snapping myself out of it. I can't remember if this was for a week or two months. But I never acted on anything, and tried to find different ways to change my feelings. I escalated my attempts until finally I spoke up about it, determined to do whatever it took to avoid going further down that road.

Julie mentioned seeing how she could feel distrustful of me after that. Funny, I thought she'd have reason to trust me more. Considering the situation I'm not really sure how anyone could have handled it with more integrity. The only thing I could've done differently is not felt the feelings I was feeling. Hmmm. I'll tip my hat to those without temptation.

Do I consider my partnership a marriage? Yes. Because we were married. I didn't leave because I don't believe in quitting a marriage, PERIOD. Had we stayed together it's quite possible that in 2 years or 5 years we would be different people and would have worked through what we were struggling with. If not we would've been together forever either way. Look up the first post I wrote on my last thread "Black and White" and you'll get a glimpse as to how I view this.

What did I do to improve the relationship? Shoot. Not enough. I had no idea how big the disconnect was, how differently she truly saw things. I was naive, and believed we'd work through things. I went to counseling right after that and still go. I read a ton of books about things like this. I tried a lot of ways to improve the R that were probably 'my ways', and failed to really try to work on things 'her ways'. And at times I was so worn out with it that I'd take a break and just live my life for a while. When we wouldn't talk it wasn't out of anger or rage, but rather just defeat and fatigue.

I would do things differently if I could do them again, but as they say "experience is learning something you needed to know, right after you needed to know it". Unfortunately for STBX she gave up on me. That assumes that I'll always be the way I was at 34. That's just not the case. But whatever. I'm accepting that this world doesn't work the way I think it ought to, and that there's still a lot of good in it.

Talk more later, thanks M.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
JulieH #2627067 11/28/15 10:14 AM
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Hi Julie,

Thanks for replying.

One of the problems I always had with W was communication.

Sure we would talk and talk and talk when there was a problem but in between not a lot. We had some together moments where we spoke about mundane things but never really exchanged what was affecting us nor had real pillow talk.

I cant remember the event you mention from the posts.

Yes, she read some erotic novels. The thing with W and erotic or sexual is that I never considered her sexually since a long time ago. The last great memory I had of her as initiating sexually was a long long time ago coming out of the shower in just a robe to the front room right up to me, open it up and that look on her face told me what she wanted. Aaaahhh what a night LOL.

After that things just died down, she never wanted sex, pulled a face at sexual jokes, if I told her how sexy she looked or how something made her look attractive she dismissed it. Never smiling acknowledging anything sexually complimentary about her. It was like living with Julie Andrews, just needed the von trapp kids to come out and sing.

Fast forward many many years to 2014, a while back through detaching and focusing on many hours of gim and supplements she got a great body. She then put a few selfies on her FB showing her abs. After the day everything blew and i saw the inappropriate photos in her phone as well as the lovey dovey messages to OM it was like 2 different people. If I had told her to send me a photo like that she would have told me to FO. I never sexted with her when I was away nor did she send me sexy or loving messages.

If she had shown me that side and opened up a little I would be putty in her hands. I cant speak for everyone but you know there is something when even though you are involved in an A the sex with OP is porn stuff but you still wish at times it was your s you had moaning. That to me just made me angry.

Dont think im not a romantic neither. I am old school, the roses, chocolates, jewellery, dinners , etc but I would wine and dine her only to get home kiss goddnight and to sleep. I still did it even though I knew nothing would happen in the hope she would act with anything, not just sex. I gave up after a while. The spark just left.

Saying this its funny how women think they can fix everything with a kiss. Whenever they turn down H they pull the kiss card as if that makes it right. As if by kissing we understand and will sweep it under the rug. I HATE those kisses. Consolation kisses.

I think we should do the same... I wont change the light bulb you are hammering on about but hey .. here's a kiss ... now on your way.

There are only so many rejections a man can take. So many closed doors he can take to advances before he emotionally shuts down. At that time I did not know DB existed. Now I would put a plan into action and see how it went before deciding.

From various posts I see a common problem with M with newborn children.

The W shifts her focus to the child, the husband still has his focus on the W. She goes from Wife to Mother. He wants to still be a husband but she is forcing him to be father first and in between Husband.

I know women get stressed with births and men freak out and when sh1t hits the fan its the other one's fault. Truth is its both your fault.

When I hear the women complain about the man not spending enough time with her or the children I get it. She needed him to have her back while she changed her role from Wife to Mother and push him 1 step down the love ladder while he resents her for this change. The dynamics changed and neither one understood how it affected the other. Add to that any other underlying issues or problems and sh1t just got a whole lot messier.

I admit as a man I will never understand the bond between a mother and a son. I know how much I love my son and what I would do for him but women take it to another level. In this way women should also understand the damage they do to a man when they shove him aside almost overnight, expect him to accept it and call him selfish when he complains.

I read that women nag as a way of transmitting that something is wrong and then go silent when they give up. We do the same. We call it complaining and it is I would say more focused on emotional needs than chores.

A woman may nag to get a light bulb changed for 3 days but not give a second thought that she rejected him 5 times this month to have sex and they have only had sex twice because for her it is enough in general.

A man will complain to his wife that she shows no affection for 3 years and not give a hoot the bulb isnt working because you can still see in general.

In short, the best expression I ever heard to cover this was that a woman needs connection to have sex. A man needs sex to have a connection. If each one understood this really clearly I think a lot more marriages would be saved.

Anyway here is my part to your post.

Hugs Max


M: 50
S: 25

Changing Life
Zues126 #2627073 11/28/15 11:51 AM
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Hi Z,

I will never understand women as I will never understand men. Yes, women are wired differently but each woman is a world unto herself. As is each man.

I can only follow a simple guide for dummies. I am not as gifted as some here to analyze each word or action of the S and read between the lines to that level. I can only up to a certain point.

I am saying this because I would not have confessed as you did. I do not as a man understand why you did it if no one was the wiser. I am not judging you, just trying to understand you. I have a lot of personal issues and demons in my head that I try and solve myself.

As for marriages, I think we consider them based on our situation. Some say a piece paper does not mean anything, it is the emotion behind it that counts. Others think that the paper gives them rights so they lax on their marital duties. Some believe in open marriages. Some dont.

You may have acted with integrity for yourself and from your POV and maybe the act in itself was. What you were being honest about wasnt.

The fact you never crossed your moral line doesnt mean you didnt cross hers. What if she in her own way was waiting for you to show emotions to her, do something and you now tell her you had feelings for someone else. Regardless of whether or not you acted on them is irrelevant. If my w had said what you had said I would have been hurt.

Integrity does not heal, honesty does not heal.

When you opened up to W and confessed you were acting on your feelings and POV. As you didnt know what she was thinking or feeling you couldnt know how she would react.

Going back to marriages and your comments ... what does being married mean to you. I think it is about emotions. If there is no emotion how is it a marriage? Another point... how do you know what would have happened in the future? Isnt that arrogance? controlling?

I always thought that experience was knowledge through exposure. And in some ways can relate to that. I have experienced Pain, Hurt, Sadness, happiness, deceit, love, hate, rejection, the list is endless.

Having experienced these I am now weary of doing anything to cause the negative ones and focus on causing the positive ones.

Sometimes it is not about being the best person you can be but being the best person to be with.

Peace Max


M: 50
S: 25

Changing Life
Maximus #2627114 11/28/15 03:56 PM
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Maximus, I am sure she suspected an affair which would be a huge motivator for her to hit the gym the way she did and to seek affirmation from another man to make her feel good about the way she looks.

You wrote "I never considered her sexually since a long time". She probably sensed this. As I said, a woman gets turned on knowing that she turns you on. The suspected affair was a huge insult to her ego. She simply wants to feel beautiful and desired. We can tell by the way you look and talk to us. Talk to her like you would a very sexy girl in her early 20s. Like she is a prize you want to win. If you were involved with someone else, I can imagine how detached you were from wife and for a long period of time too and I can imagine how bad she felt not knowing for sure but suspecting. I know you feel the affair was justified but she will never see this. She will see how hurt you made her feel and how you chose other woman instead of being patient and working with her. The way man think they work on things and communicate is different then the way women do
(She is exercising to the point her Achilles tendons are about to tear...do you see the emotional pain she is in? )

I suspect the 180 in your case would be giving her attention, time, and tons of verbal affirmations? When did you give up giving her romance?

it sounds like you resent her because of no sex and she resents you for something. You might have to be bigger person (which it sounds like you are trying to be) and put your resentments to side. I'm not saying to tell her of your indiscretion, but you might want to treat her the way someone that cheated on his wife and is trying to get her back does. By swallowing your needs for a while and just rebuilding her confidence. Give her time to trust you again. Show remorse and apologize for neglecting her. Make her feel beautiful


Me: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
Physically Separated 7/2015
JulieH #2627117 11/28/15 04:05 PM
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Max and zues

I know you are both right regarding intimacy. If our sex life was better, we would have worked through a lot of our issues. past year, we were living with family and had no privacy. Prior to that it was last on list. I had stopped dressing up and caring, because felt like being able to chase after kids was more important then looking good.


Me: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
Physically Separated 7/2015
JulieH #2627118 11/28/15 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: JulieH
Maximus, I am sure she suspected an affair which would be a huge motivator for her to hit the gym the way she did and to seek affirmation from another man to make her feel good about the way she looks.

You wrote "I never considered her sexually since a long time". She probably sensed this. As I said, a woman gets turned on knowing that she turns you on. The suspected affair was a huge insult to her ego. She simply wants to feel beautiful and desired. We can tell by the way you look and talk to us. Talk to her like you would a very sexy girl in her early 20s. Like she is a prize you want to win. If you were involved with someone else, I can imagine how detached you were from wife and for a long period of time too and I can imagine how bad she felt not knowing for sure but suspecting. I know you feel the affair was justified but she will never see this. She will see how hurt you made her feel and how you chose other woman instead of being patient and working with her. The way man think they work on things and communicate is different then the way women do
(She is exercising to the point her Achilles tendons are about to tear...do you see the emotional pain she is in? )

I suspect the 180 in your case would be giving her attention, time, and tons of verbal affirmations? When did you give up giving her romance?

it sounds like you resent her because of no sex and she resents you for something. You might have to be bigger person (which it sounds like you are trying to be) and put your resentments to side. I'm not saying to tell her of your indiscretion, but you might want to treat her the way someone that cheated on his wife and is trying to get her back does. By swallowing your needs for a while and just rebuilding her confidence. Give her time to trust you again. Show remorse and apologize for neglecting her. Make her feel beautiful



Julie, I agree with this, and would actually add something...DO THIS BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING FOR A HUSBAND TO DO. NOT to try to change her behavior. This is where I failed in my M.

The sad fact is that it probably won't change the M the way the H wants. W may continue to neglect H. He may go through decades more of anguish. So if the H does this as a strategy to try to get W to give him what he desires, it is DOOMED. She might. She might not. It would sure be nice. But that's almost not the point. The point is to do it because when you got married you made a commitment to do your part. Whether she does hers is between her and her maker.

There is a clip on youtube under "Andy Stanley Marriage Expectations". It has part 1-3. It is religious based. But this series is a much watch, about an hour total. Part 3 explains this very, very well. You cannot serve your partner out of selfishness. You must serve them because this is your job. To the same extent that you must provide for your children whether they appreciate you or not. It's your DUTY. If you have a lonely, sexless, miserable marriage for the rest of your life...at least sleep good knowing you did your best to do your part.

My two cents. Funny, if more people felt that way maybe they'd see that at some point positive things happen.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
JulieH #2627122 11/28/15 04:55 PM
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Hi Julie,

Thanks for the female insight.

Originally Posted By: JulieH
Maximus, I am sure she suspected an affair which would be a huge motivator for her to hit the gym the way she did and to seek affirmation from another man to make her feel good about the way she looks. Could be, she also lost her job so i presume unhappiness at home and job loss made her take refuge in gim

You wrote "I never considered her sexually since a long time". She probably sensed this. As I said, a woman gets turned on knowing that she turns you on. Then why do they reject the H's advances?

The suspected affair was a huge insult to her ego. She simply wants to feel beautiful and desired. We can tell by the way you look and talk to us. Talk to her like you would a very sexy girl in her early 20s. Like she is a prize you want to win. Very good point. I realized looking back that as H we treat them as sex objects. Forget the day interactions you mention and then expect a porn star in bed. I try that now. Hugging from behind sporadically during the day, kissing her neck, speaking sweetly and sounding happy to hear her voice. This in conjunction with my change as a H to be next to her and not behind her.

If you were involved with someone else, I can imagine how detached you were from wife and for a long period of time too and I can imagine how bad she felt not knowing for sure but suspecting. So do I

I know you feel the affair was justified but she will never see this. She will see how hurt you made her feel and how you chose other woman instead of being patient and working with her. The way man think they work on things and communicate is different then the way women do As she also had a fling, would you say a W then realises what got H to also go wayward?

(She is exercising to the point her Achilles tendons are about to tear...do you see the emotional pain she is in? ) I know she is in emotional pain because sometimes an innocent action will cause her eyes to swell. an example .. i was supposed to meet her at the gim to go to the doctor for my back. I forgot and thought she was coming home to pick me up. I saw time went by and no news. i then sent her a message that it was strange she did not turn up and that i hope everything was Ok. I didnt want to call because i thought she was having a crisis. I left for the appt and she arrived home and called me saying her phone blocked and that she was not irresponsible and would not leave me to go by myself she was not that sort of person... all crying. I calmed her down and she came to the doctor and picked me up. she just exploded. so I know her head has a storm.

I suspect the 180 in your case would be giving her attention, time, and tons of verbal affirmations? When did you give up giving her romance? Years ago when she stopped accepting it. she would go mad when i gave her a bunch of flowers saying it was a waste of money. She once made me and my son give back a cologne we bought for her because she thought it was throwing money away and she stopped using cologne. Me and my son hated those days where you had to give gifts like mothers day or her birthday. We then just bought anything saying what the hell w will make us give it back anyway.

it sounds like you resent her because of no sex and she resents you for something. You might have to be bigger person (which it sounds like you are trying to be) and put your resentments to side. I'm not saying to tell her of your indiscretion, but you might want to treat her the way someone that cheated on his wife and is trying to get her back does. By swallowing your needs for a while and just rebuilding her confidence. Give her time to trust you again. Show remorse and apologize for neglecting her. Make her feel beautiful
doing all that Julie that is why I am here.


Hugs Max


M: 50
S: 25

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