And I Do Believe It Could Be; Something Good Has Begun

[HaWho]

New thread & starting 2nd year Post BD. Here is the link to my old thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2606617&page=10

AJ - please note I answered your last post on my old thread. I welcome your feedback to my response.

So, what is that good thing that I do believe could have begun?

Well, first and foremost, though it was doing VERY good business, the HaWho Pretzel Shop is now permanently closed.

In realizing that the shop needed to go, I am finding that piece of me, that belongs to me and only me. Somehow I either lost that piece or it became so enmeshed with H that it is all slobbered on and unrecognizeable.

Getting this piece back opens my eyes to many new realities. H is not the be-all end-all to my happiness.

He abandoned me long ago and I survived it. I am facing that fear head on. More on that to come.

Next, I need to make this year better than last. I cannot get dragged into his mess. I know this means a new level of detachment and continue with expectations at zero.

Thank you to all of you for letting me vent and journal here. Thank you for all your advice. I hope I can give back. I do believe had I not found this forum I would be so lost in all this. For sure, I would still be pretzeling and playing Mrs. Potato Head with myself.

[job]

You and your h have been playing the distance/pursuer game, i.e., when you distance, he gravitates towards you and then when you respond, he distances. Have you read the thread on distance/pursuit? If not, you may want to read it.

You have a very good understanding of what is going on under your roof. The more you speak to him about "love", the "relationship", etc., the more his eyes are going to glaze over and react in a odd manner. Try not to address these issues w/him right now. He's no where near ready to hear these things from you. After all, in his mind, you are either a mother figure or his roommate and that all depends upon the conversations.

BTW, his reaction to your son entering his room...sounds like typical sibling issues when one child enters another child's room w/o permission.

Continue as you have been. I think you are doing great.

[HaWho]

Yes Job- post BD when I went searching for what "this" all was, I came across Solo Partner and bells chimed. I just re-read the thread on here, too. But thanks. It's good to be reminded to re-read. Early on, in a moment of clarity I just tried to discuss this pattern with him but it was WAY above his pay grade. Too much Transylvania like fog was swirling around.

Also Job, I missed that H's reaction was on brother-brother level. I know he is a teanager and my son/husband but I forgot he has two brothers in the house, too. Oi!

Anyway, H's body language is very angry this AM. I think he may be close to spewing at me. I think he is processing his way: writing/playing music. But I am not sure he can get it all out that way. I know my distancing brings him back to childhood issues. We each have baggage in this arena. But my abandonment baggage can fit on a Cessna. It really can. I know I need it to get into that overhead compartment and I am workin' on it. H needs a Boeing 747 for his baggage.

He is on his third song in 2 weeks. When he sent me the 1st song, he said it was the first he had written in 9 months. He sent me the lyrics to the second song, too. He has not given me lyrics to this song and I know he won't; it is too personal. But I Saw the lyrics and he is battling in there. One line mentions he wishes there a way to erase the yesterdays.

Thursday night he made a salad and homemade dressing. I was helping kids with homework and he placed his own bowl w/fork in front of me and told me to try it. I did and it was good. I validated his culinary skills and thanked him.

But I see exactly what that is now. I tried to picture myself throwing my dance card in the trash can.

[HaWho]

Hope you all are having a nice weekend. I am.

Friday I went to an amazing jack o'lantern sculpture event. It is amazing to see the talent people can have. As you walked through the park, there were life size giraffes and dinosaurs sculpted out of jack o'lanterns.

Saturday I woke up, gave the kids their chores, made them breakfast and hit my hike. S12 told me he decided to go to the tournament and that H would be taking him. I immediately saw this was going to be a logistical nightmare that H did not have the clarity to see.

Dorm room construction was taking place and H had 2 sons for the day plus a tournament 1 1/2 hours away?!?

I text him to remind him that he has the kids for the day as I have plans. I know given that his memory is a sieve (unless it is something that pertains to his needs) he has forgotten. And I am SO looking forward to my plans. Then, the texting starts. H says that S12 has a tournament, H has workers at the house and if workers are not done, then if I don't take S12, he can't go to the tournament!

So PA. Instead of saying he made an error, he pushes his stuff onto my to-do list! He wants an out on going to this tournament and he wants to pin it on me. He wants me to cancel my plans and take S12. I push back that which is not mine. I tell him I won't be done/home in time. (S12 said days ago he wasn't going so I made my plans. He should learn a lesson to plan better, too.)

I leave for friend's. Half hour after arrival, H texts me asking who is going to take care of S10!!! I wait a while and say I will not be back to do so.

He texts saying there is no one to take care of S10 and he cannot take S12. It is SO obvious he wants an out on going to this tournament. He is recording song 3 and he wants to stay home and continue. It cracks me up that he is acting like S10 can't go. Instead of just saying to S10: you have to come, he is acting like he has to move a whole hospital of invalids. Ugh.

I wait and text back that I don't know as I had no clue they decided to go to the tournament. I said you can always just bring S10. He always found this stuff hard. Meanwhile I used to travel everywhere with two diapered kids all by myself.

That is the last text. I stay and so enjoy the time with friends! It is so nice to get out of my own head and be around cheerful, happy people. I am first generation and all these ladies are from the same country as my parents were. My friend has made food from that country! I could cry I am so happy for the comfort of it.

I come home and say hi. H ignores me. I am sure he is mad that I did not run back to help. He is locked in the dorm room all night, recording. His pacing is frenetic this weekend. He is creating music obsessively, just as he did leading up to BD.

At almost 12AM he wakes me up fixing himself food in the kitchen. He is very loud, like a teenager. I start reading, check my emails. H has sent me the lyrics to song 3. This time I ask if I can ask a few questions about it. He says yes.

It is a very dark song. I think he thinks about death nonstop.

[job]

I'm very proud of you that you stayed and enjoyed yourself. Yes, your man/child is acting like a teenager and wants "mom" to do everything so that he can write sons and work on his dorm room. Too bad...he's a grown man w/responsibilities and he needs to figure things out for himself. Rescuing him is now not a priority for you. Leave him to figure things out as he needs to be accountable and yes, learn what life is all about.

I'm sure he's going to be playing the PA behavior for a while...just ignore it and go about your happy self. He'll get over it in due time.

BTW, they do think about death quite often because they are attempting to stop the aging process and running backwards to stay young...Unfortunately life doesn't work that way except in the movies.

Keep up the good work!

[mleigh4]

Good job sticking to your plans!! Isn't it amazing how a grown MLC man can get so easily overwhelmed? I think it is part of it all.

Proud of how you handled it, stay strong

[HaWho]

Ok- H/Eeyore played depressing song #3 ALL WEEKEND LONG! I survived. I programmed in a station on Pandora and piped that throughout the house. Anytime a remotely depressing song played I hit "thumbs down" and it was cathartic. There will be joy outside of the dorm room if it kills me!!!

Late last night H put headphones on S12 and played most recent song aka "I Am Afraid to Die Song # 4654." I am not sure if I should intervene here. It did remind me of two teenage boys exchanging music. But I worry H is passing down his very unhealthy fears onto son. Maybe this is a place I should set a boundary. I am struggling here. I cannot protect S12 from depressing songs. He hears them all the time. I just wish it wasn't coming from the lips of his dad.

These days, I talk to my boys A LOT about how there is much good in every stage of aging. And I truly believe this. I focus on being lively around them. I don't want to be one of those Debbie Downer old ladies. There is too much focus on youth in this country.

Here is something I find interesting. When H first announced dorm room renovation plan, he said he was almost 47 and tired of living like this (in his nasty dorm room.) When I read his age in print, it hit me that he is almost the same age that my dad was when he died--47.

All along, I have tried to link FIL's cake eating to H's MLC. But FIL was a WAS with first wife and cake eating from the get-go with wife2. Ages of H's MLC and FIL's cake eating have never aligned and reading MLC tea leaves is a fruitless endeavor here. No coherent link exists, to me anyway.

One quick FIL cake eating story and then back to the point of this post. FIL married a doormat for wife2 and cake ate before the ring was on her finger. FIL "lived" with wife2 Monday - Wednesday, then lived at a casino where he gambled. He called it "work." Hah!! He would actually head out to the casino and with a straight face say "time to go to work!" (Of course he was sited at the casino with various women.)

FIL would come home and wife2 would warm his slippers and dote on him. Anyway, we were having a family dinner and wife2 made baked potatoes. Then, wife2 fixed his plate for him as always (he sat comfortably after a hard week of "work" at the casino) and she placed it before him. Then she proceeded to cut his potato for him!! Meanwhile he didn't budge--even to give her more elbow room to cut the potato! In fact, he was stone still with chin up like he was royalty.

He moved out years ago and anytime there is a family function where she sees him, she still brings him home cooked meals. I am sure he rounds the corner and dumps the plate in the trash before he walks in to his girlfriend's. FIL and wife2 are still married. She never re-focused on herself and she needs to be a lesson to me, for sure! She became an angry martyr type.

Back to the point of this post. When H said he is almost 47, I immediately turned the focus from FIL to my dad. I was 5 when he died and I don't remember him too well. Anyway, I thought, one was 47 (F) and once was 46 (H)--about the same age yet one is dying and the other is growing up. Weird. Both out of the norm for their ages.

Then, I start to wonder was F 47? I was told he was, but now I wonder if he could have been 46? What would the odds be there? I check online and amazingly his DOB and date of death are online! He was in fact 46 when he died! One month short of being 47 (which must be why people said he was 47?).

And it hits me. Even if you do not believe in divine intervention sometimes patterns emerge that either force you to see things or at least prevent you from ignoring the obvious.

I would lose both men when they were 46. When F died I needed to kick into "fix everything" mode as M was severely depressed. This is exactly what I tried to do when H "died"/hit MLC. Funny how H is pieces of my mother and father co-mingled.

And I see what I am supposed to do. I am an adult now and I have to show my kids (and myself) what healthy living looks like. I have to do what I could not do as a kid!

[AJM]

I have to say, I went down that path once. It was fruitless in that it didn't answer the questions. My parents were married for 20 years when mom died. I was married for 20 years when my ex "died" and went to la la land. Coincidence? Probably. I had to go down that path though. To see if there was a pattern. To see if there was something in me to fix.

And I see what I am supposed to do. I am an adult now and I have to show my kids (and myself) what healthy living looks like. I have to do what I could not do as a kid!

Glad you do, but I'm concerned that it's for the wrong reasons. In my mind, you are a parent. That's a gift. You're supposed to do that regardless of what happens in your life. Your kids deserve that and so do you.

HW, be YOU. Be the parent, mother, woman YOU are supposed to be. Live your life like it is the gift it is. And show your children by example how an adult behaves and lives. For their sake. For your sake. Not for the past or any reasons you can find to try and make sense of the un-sensical. Which, by the way, is only non-sensical because you don't see all the pieces yet.

AJ

[HaWho]

Odd day today. I kind of feel like I am closing the confessional door as I post this.

Yesterday, I remembered a very romantic thing H did when our kids were young. But, today, out of the blue, I thought to myself: I don't want this guy. It came in a moment of calm and I had no anxiety about it. 2 weekends ago when H just up and left for his movie, I realized I did not "need" him. In all honesty, before then I think I did not "know" that I did not "need" him.

I was thinking about the fact that I have thought I went into my depression before H hit MLC, but now I know this is not the case. I suddenly remember that for a long time, he pecked at me. I did x wrong and cooked y wrong. I believe his negativity compounded my depression. Now, of course, I realize that all that criticism was him laying the tar for the MLC highway.

Where yesterday I was remembering something romantic H did, today all I could see are his warts. I re-visited all his mistakes long before MLC. I am not sure what "this" is. Have I crossed from detachment into indifference? Or is this just another stop further along on the detachment train? Maybe this is just a new level of cycling?!?

I come home and for the first time in weeks (since I set the boundary) he is making eye contact with me and his eyes are soft. He is "here" today. Can he read my guilt about my thoughts today? I do feel guilty for my thinking. I am afraid it shows in my face. Maybe this is why he looks guilty often, too?

He tells me he has a buyer for x item--something I asked him to sell
months ago. I validate and say great.

He texts me when he sells it and say "we" made x dollars. I validate and say nice work.

But I just don't feel like there is much of a "we." I mean, he has after all, kicked me to the curb multiple times! What kind of "we" is that?!?

[HaWho]

Thanks AJ- good advice. You are right--I am searching through rubble to find logic in chaos.

I am curious about your comment that I do not see all the pieces yet. Is this something I am missing or is it just it hasn't been revealed to me yet? Can you clarify?

[job]

I think AJ means that all of the pieces have not been revealed to you just yet. As you progress, things will become even clearer and when the time is right, the pieces will be shown and fall into place.

Don't try to rush the process, allow things to progress naturally for you. You are detaching very well and right now, you are right where you should be. You are doing great.

Continue to keep the focus on you and your family.

[HaWho]

So, last week I mentioned that I wanted to go away for BD 1 year anniversary. A few days ago I was nervous about doing so. I took some time and I realize I do want to go away but I was afraid to tell H. I took time to process that too and I know now that I hate confrontation and I was trying to avoid his PA reaction.

I have a theory that all that criticism H threw my way for years was, on a subsonscious level, him breaking me down piece by piece so that by the time he was ready to BD me I would be so weak he could run around pell mell doing whatever he wanted.

And I was SO weak in that whole first year! UGH-PATHETIC!! At one point I even apolgized because somehow I had grown so needy. (Many, many years of H's irrational anger and petty ctiricisms had taken their toll. Plus, I was so defeated by diagnosis of my nephew's rare disorder.) H's eyes lit up and he told me that actually, me being needy was good! That was a moment where I realized our course was way off track. Maybe he wanted to rescue someone or to feel needed. But I hated being needy; it was so unhealthy and pathetic feeling. And naturally, I am a competent person. I was so much stronger 20 years ago!

I used to be very adept at road tripping. During college and after work, on Friday afternoons I would go places. I used to visit my sister at her college and then, years later visit her in NYC. I went to Montreal, DC., hiked mountains, went to Europe, etc. This all stopped with kids. But my kids are older now and I know I want to get back to that adventurous person.

I kind of feel like I am avoiding facing things by leaving that day. But then, at times it feels healthy to just re-do the day my way. I really don't want to see him at all on BD anniversary. I have not decided if I will plan the day or if I will go where the wind takes me. I am very excited by the freedom of it!

I just texted H today and asked him if he could take care of x,y and z with the kids between the time that I planned to be gone. I did not, however, say I planned to leave for a road trip. It seemed irrelevant to do so as, if he could not cover me, I planned to call in some favors from friends and patch it together somehow so I could leave.

H texted back that he could do it all. I said thanks and then I told him I was going away. Crickets chirping--he does not text back. I am sure it will be silent treatment for weeks now. I bet he has no clue it is BD anniversary. Probably doesn't remember any of that. But he knows I am getting my life back by going away. This time, if he texts me incessantly, the way he did this past Saturday, I will tell him I am going off the grid & please only contact me for an emergency. (I will of course call the kids to check-in, say good morning and good night.)

Per H's request today is supposed to be weekly family dinner. Let's see what his actions show. PA behavior may start with this.

Minutes after I tell him I am going away, from the dorm room I heard him open up his guitar case and start a new song.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho - good for you. And remember, your H's inclination towards PA behaviour is his to own. It needn't impact on you.

Your comment about not recalling BD made me smile. On some paperwork H sent through recently, he cited our S date (BD) as six weeks later than it actually was!! I didn't correct him, but I did tell L just in case..

It's great that you are getting back to doing things you once enjoyed and I hope the trip is all that you hope for xx

[mleigh4]

I am so excited for you, I hope you have a great trip! You inspire me to do my own little beach weekend get away. I used to all the time in my 20's, all by myself, and loved it. Can't wait to hear how your trip goes.

Cracks me up about the silent treatment, that is my H PA punishment of choice too. I am on over 2 weeks of it right now! It's easier to deal with when you know what to expect, huh?

[HaWho]

Hi Sotto - 6 weeks off?!? I guess it is true that MLCers have a warped sense of time and its passing. Wow.

Hi Mleigh - yes- go away! Just the planning is freeing! I think we should arrange a playdate for our H's while we are gone. They can work it all out in the sandbox. Lol.

Yep, I am gettin' full silent treatment over here (plus grumbles). In comparison to some of the cringe worthy comments he has made, the silence is golden.

[LouR]

HaWho - so excited you are going away, travelling is good for the soul,I love it.

Where are you thinking of going on your road trip ?

[HaWho]

Hi LouR- nice to hear from you! Right now my plan is to play tennis the morning I leave. Then I will go to a museum. The next morning I will do a (new) hike, just found an interesting one. Afterwards, I have a spa appointment. I will hit all the bases: social/comptetive (tennis), intellectual (museum), nature (hiking) and recreation (spa)!

By the way, I have been to New Zealand - BEAUTIFUL country. Cathedral Cove and the mineral baths/cold water plunge at the Polynesian Spa were amazing.

[HaWho]

Yesterday my kids made plans with their friends. Months ago, I would have been pining to do something with H.

But I have grown tired of hunting Moby Dick and when kids make plans so do I. Months ago I would have struggled with what to do with myself. Now, I find myself narrowing down options. I once again am very good at comfortably doing things by myself.

SPOILER ALERT: H is in the dorm room creating music. I drop sons off at their friends and text H that kids are away for the night. I tell him to "enjoy the night." I expect silence, but within a minute he texts "you too."

I have a pang that he has no interest in doing anything with me but I feel it, accept it and off I go. I read on a hill and watch the sun set.

One hour after I left the house H texts me. He is still ignoring me. He texts me he has rented 2 scary movies. Then he texts that he will leave them in my room. (I never watch scary movies alone and never have.) I don't answer.

I go on with my night. I have dinner by myself and enjoy it. I do a lot of walking afterwards. Truth be told, I have a really nice night. I feel less alone by myself than I do when with H.

When I walk into my room I text H "thanks" for the movies. One hour later he texts that he will go pickup the boys. I say they are both sleeping over their friends'. He says: good timing as he had just left to pickup S12. I don't answer.

It is sad how clueless he is about the kids and their plans/what is REALLY going on in their lives. The day before there was a Halloween event at S10's school. H was ignoring me and so he asked S10 for time of the event. The day of the event, H showed up as it was ending. I am sure he crossed the time. He looked really mad. I was leaving as the event was over and told him to have a nice day.

In his quest for happiness he is missing valuable time with them and doing a lot of damage to the foundation of his relationship with them. It is painful to watch.

[mleigh4]

I know what you mean about H not knowing what is going on with the kids. S has a book report each month. If I remind H, they work on it. If I don't, it goes forgotten. H is clueless about days S is off school, even though I gave him a school calendar.

I guess their minds are just so spun that they are not able to take in current information. I remind myself how I get when I am feeling really busy and overwhelmed....now imagine feeling that way constantly for months or years! I remember when I was in my own fog, I got easily overwhelmed.

It's a shame they are missing so much that they will never get back.

I love reading how you are enjoying your time. I too enjoy doing things alone sometimes, not many people do! You are doing such a good job of GAL.

I am curious, when you and your H are texting, are you both in the house? Is he texting you from his dorm room?

[HaWho]

Hi Mleigh- Happy Halloween!

To answer you, since I set the boundary, H always texts me from the dorm room, even when I am home. I am still getting the cold shoulder. It's all very mature. Ha ha. He does not come to my room at all to talk to me. I try to tell him required things in person at dinner. He does still drive the kids to their practices and pick them up. He walks the dog each night, too. I think he needs to be out of the house. We all still eat dinner together every night. But, some things I text him. I texted him that I was going away next week.

I am reading through Raine's threads. Yes, her H lived at home, but man, are all these MLCers so different once they recite that script. I know her H had many OW's and seemed to flaunt it, but he seemed like he was a little boy, too. He was much more clingy and physically present within the home. There was an innocence and kindness still to him that I don't see in my H. Her H also was quite open about still admiring her and her attributes. My H is much more moody and superficial.

[AJM]

They are different, HW. And yet, similar. To me, that's because people are people.

In his quest for happiness he is missing valuable time with them and doing a lot of damage to the foundation of his relationship with them. It is painful to watch.

Kind of like with kids (and the similarities are very similar with a MLCr), you can see what they are doing and how it won't work. They can't. Until they can.

Funny story. I kid my son about that same subject. When he was little, maybe 3 or 4, he was curious and was told not to put his hand on the stove, because it was hot. Like a lot of kids, he didn't listen and did it anyway. And learned that he should not have done that and should have listened. A few years later, he was 9 and at the neighbors house. She was baking cookies and told everyone in the house not to touch the stove because it was hot. He did anyway. I kid him about being slow and needing to learn it twice He's a very smart kid. He just needed to learn it in his own way.

Kind of similar for many MLCr's. They may be brilliant but still human and need to learn in their own way. Even if we can see they'll get hurt or are doing damage. They zone out of that world and pursue learning in their own way. As if they forgot everything else they ever learned or never knew better.

And then they grow up. In some ways, almost as the same pace as they got lost. What took years to build up to, takes years to unwind. I always referred to it as an emotional stroke, because that's how it felt when I watched my ex up close. It was like an event happened, she "had to" and "deserved to" be "happy", forgot the rest of her previous life or re-remembered it, and then had to re-learn just about everything about being human.

The MC referred to it as if she were an IED that went off and I was too close. I thought of it as a shattered shell that she was piecing back together. But I could see how clumsily she was going about it and the mistakes she was making. I was just the one person that she wasn't going to listen to. Small consolation, but I haven't been wrong about any of it yet and in many ways it's similar to how I saw the kids and their learning. I wasn't wrong, and I did have to forcibly intervene when absolutely crucial (to prevent serious injuries or maiming) but otherwise, they had to figure out much of it on their own.

I notice he keeps finding ways to talk or give you "gifts" (even if you don't want scary movies for example) and makes an effort to be with the kids. That's unique on its own. In some ways, he's keeping you like most kids do - I want my freedom (compelled in some ways), but I want you where I left you.

I like that you're getting out on your own and enjoying it. That's a great thing. Keep finding those things that help you recharge and explore your own self. But try not to give up hope for the long term even as you detach. You may decide at some point that you won't let him back. But you may decide you will as well. For now, you don't have to make that choice and can freely enjoy the other parts of your life. Take advantage of that. There's a lot to do

Peace,
AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJ - Hope you are having a good weekend. I hear your advice about not detaching too far for the future. I know that is about keeping the door open.

I have to say, as I sit quiet over here, however, much is being revealed to me. I hate to go back to that letter (I hear the collective groan), but I am still processing it, both alone and through an IC. That letter was kind of like looking at 30 dark red dots on a Monet painting. Looking at just the letter/that section of the painting, you can think it is just part of a sunset.

But, when I look at that letter in the context of my H's childhood, his relationship before me and traits that have surfaced (perhaps emerged) as he has grown comfortable with me, suddenly I see the whole Monet painting and it looks like a very bloody scene. Maybe this is me seeing the "pieces."

I now see my H has transferred his issues with his mother onto that woman he dated before me and now onto me. He has many, many reasons to have issues with women given that primary R with his mother.

When I set that boundary with him, I planted a few seeds that this letter showed he has issues with women. I made one reference to his childhood and how that has impacted his view of women/me.

I now understand that even if he never owns his issues with women that is now an issue with me in our M. It has all been revealed. I don't know what it will take for him to see this. I know, for me, there cannot be a M until he resolves these issues he has projected onto me for years. He has to own them. Pain was inflicted on him as a kid but as an adult he has power now and he needs to fix those if he wants a R with me. I can't do it for him. The letter is not an isolated incident. I do not believe he can overcome his issues without an IC--eventually. But re-wiring like this is kind of like bending a spoon with your mind.

The fact that he has no remorse that the things he said made me felt great shame tells me he is quite disconnected from his feelings. I know this is par for the MLC course. His response was all about him so I know he is no where near ready to own his issues. He is in a lot of denial and lacks any self awareness (at least to me. Maybe internally it is different.) Who knows if he ever will see this.

I have to detach because it truly is not healthy for me to be in a situation where he is transferring everything onto me. It is not hard to do right now because I see what is happening. Raine's sitch was different this way. Her H did not really project onto her, it seems. My H has pasted his mother's face onto me and a bullseye onto my back. It is kind of crazy because I live with him, I am supposed to be the one guiding him, yet he's transferred everything onto me and I have to protect myself here, too. I am wearing too many hats. I need to step away for lots of reasons (break the dance and shield myself from this transference.)

As a quick note: H told kids he went trick-or-treating with S10 last year. Kids dispute this. H stayed home and gave out candy. (Probably he was working feverishly on his bomb drop script to me--ha ha.) He again said he went trick-or-treating and I gently but adamantly disputed him until his memory was jogged. I wanted to make it clear that he cannot remember important events and I want him to know he cannot re-write them either. I told him "you chose to stay home last year. You can come with us or you can stay home again." (He loves Halloween so he should be wondering why he stayed home.)

Wait 'til I remind him of Easter last year -- oi.

[job]

Here's another "success" story about a woman poster and her mlcing h. She had a teenager on her hands and she tested him periodically by moving his toothbrush. HRM had the patience of a saint and as of the last time she posted, they were still together.

Here's her first thread:

Crazytown population me.....

This is her very first posting and if you can't locate the rest of them, go the left-hand bottom of the forum screen and change your setting to all postings and then do a search on her name hrm134.

As you read the various postings, you'll discover that mlcers follow a script, but they are also very individual in how they react/behave towards family and life in general. Each is very unique just as their personalities are unique.

Continue to detach. I think you've been doing a great job in handling your situation.

[HaWho]

Thanks Job. Ok, I will read that thread too.

Thanks for the kind words. It is just such a weird world we have all entered. I wonder if someday MLC will be re-classified as a personality disorder. I definitely think it needs some heavy hitting researchers publishing via mainstream. Like so many before me I thought MLC was sports cars, getting fit and just a ridiculous acting out.

Anyway- have a wonderful Halloween everyone!!!

[HaWho]

Here is something interesting. And I would love some advice please.

As I am out walking the dog, H texts me about my trip this week. He says: so that "we can be on the same page for 'our' boys, what are you telling them?" Then he asks about carpool logistics and other logistical issues.

I answer: I am telling them the truth--same as I told you. I am going on a road trip. Then I answer logistical questions.

He texts: OK, road trip. They haven't asked where? That isn't like them and S10 will ask me. So, let's be on the same page with the answer. There's no good reason to upset them. Go wherever you please. I just want to minimize any impact on them (as I am sure you do).

Me: Don't worry! I will explain it to them. It need not be a big deal. Of course any moment they want to call me they can. I am always available to them and they know this.

H: You are kind of being an a$$. If you smartly change your mind and responsibly want me to have a consistent answer with you for them, just let me know. Otherwise, I will tell them I don't know when asked.
---------
I find this all laughable! He wants to minimize the impact on this kids? Um, from April-July you ran all around, coming and going without even talking to any of us. You rolled in at 2:30 AM on average and your BFF was a never married horny 50 year old on Viagra. When the kids called your phone was always off. Sometimes they left messages and you didn't return them. They stopped bothering to call. If leaving for 36 hours makes me an a$$ then we need to create a whole new word for what you are!! I was left answering LOTS of questions to which I had NO answers you louse!! And I was left holding everything together you idiot!!

I am taking time to process this as I am so mad at his PA insinuation that I am damaging the kids!! How dare he!!! I have been a redwood to these kids, you pre-pubescent moron. Ok rant over.

Do I give a truth dart here? If I do it calmly and rationally could it help him? Or will I be batting at a killer bee's nest? His lack of self awareness is astounding!! I feel like I need to tip his thrown over a ledge.

I fantasize sending the above rant!!

But what about: when you say that you want to minimize any impact on them, it feels like you are insinuating that I am a negligent parent. This is not a big deal and we should not make it one. This is the best way to minimize any impact on them. With all due respect, from April - mid-summer you came and went without telling any of us anything. You rolled in whenever you pleased and I answered lots of questions about you. I had your back and never threw you under the bus. I think I am entitled to 36 hours and you should support me, not guilt me. I let you have months of running all around.

Or do I ignore? But I REALLY feel like he needs a little truth dart/push. I had his back for months I deserve support not guilt.

Thought/advice pointers?

[job]

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh. It's not about the kids and the damage being done to them...it's all about him. He wants to know where you are going and if you are meeting up w/someone. He also doesn't want to have to answer questions from them if they should arise. In fact, he doesn't want to be responsible for them while you are gone.

I would answer any logistical questions that he may have and leave a printed listing on the frig of anything that you feel is relevant for the 36 hours that you are away. Also put on the bottom of the listing that your children can contact you at any time as your phone will be on the entire time while you are gone.

I wouldn't tell him anything more than that. He's quite capable of taking care of the children for 36 hours and should be just fine doing so.

Funny, how they worry about the children and how it looks when we do something out of the ordinary.

Keep to your schedule and do not allow him to pull you off your path. Don't take the bait of responding in a negative way to him. Keep the communication simple, short and sweet and make that list for him.

[HaWho]

Hi Job - it is just SO laughable. Must be so nice to live by your own set of rules and apply different rules to others.

Job- can they remember the running around they did? The coming and going at all odd hours? One other question, we do not have a landline. I plan to ask my kids to call me from my son's cell phone at night and in the AM. (I will put it on the list.) And I can text them to remind them. This way I won't have to call through H. He is going to be SO furious. Wonder how many weeks he will ignore me for this. Let the wagering begin. I think 2 weeks ...

I want to text him a reality check but I know he wants me to engage. I won't take the bait. It will be hard.

Ok - GREAT idea on the list. I am on it. Also, the night before I will
go to my local ATM and withdraw PLENTY of cash so there will be NO trace of where I was. I will tell the kids I am going where the wind takes me. I know my kids are not going to be impacted an iota. They know I am a rock for them.

Now I need to pray to God that I can keep my mouth shut. Time to turn up the elevator music in my head: all the leaves are brown, and the sky is gray ...

[job]

They do remember some of what they did during their crisis. How much? Well...that's anyone's guess, but I would venture to say that they do remember far more than they let on.

Make the list and that way he can't whine about anything while you are gone. Getting funds from the ATM sounds like a good idea.

He's going to be fuming for a while...but you know what...that's life...get over it. LOL! Sometimes a little shake up is good for the soul.

Everything will work out...don't take his bait. If he says anything else, advise him that you are going to leave a list on the frig.

Enjoy your week!

[HaWho]

How funny would it be if I took one of my gimongous suitcases with me for 36 hour trip. Inside all it will have is the backpack I will need!!!

Oh, I can have A LOT of fun with this one...

[job]

Yes, you can have some fun w/this...but be sure you remember what you've told him so that he doesn't trip you up w/his questions.

[HaWho]

He will not ask a single question when I return. I am pretty sure he will ignore me completely.

He may probe the kids so I will be very careful in what I divulge there. But they are kids, it is easy to say: who cares about me, how have you been the last 2 days?

The question is: will he tit for tat me. I can see him going away the next week!!!

[job]

If he does go away, wish him a nice time away and leave it at that. They do have a way of wanting to "one up us". They can become very competitive at times.

Find the humor in it and that will help you in the days ahead.

[AJM]

I see what you're getting at HW. I think you're on the right path, for what it's worth. I recall feeling much the same way you do when I went through it. I described it as paying the price for somebody else's sins. Was it her FOO? Was it her new friends? Her new husband? Somebody else? In the end, that wasn't important to figure out and just kept me from seeing the rest of the Monet.

Something that tends to be important for dealing with a MLCr's - consistency. They tend to put us under a microscope while ignoring their own actions. It's kind of odd, but it seems logical in that they focus on themselves.

To that end, keep your answers as minimal and straight to the point as you can about what you're doing. Even an honest mistake is a means for starting a fight and it's just not worth it. Additionally, it gives them a sense of "mystery" about us if they don't really know. Just note, as job mentioned, he'll sulk for some time after.

It seems to me that it's fairly logical that they take out their FOO issues on those closest. They feel safe to do so or just can't hold it in any longer. Either way, they do tend to do that. I see that as a badge of honor, if not an unpleasant one. Because it means they are comfortable enough with us to do so. And I have seen where it is what they need to do in order to resolve those FOO issues.

That said, you may come through this and decide that you don't want anything to do with him any longer. That's a risk he needed to take. And one that you took whether you asked for it or not.

You can wait it out and see what he becomes, if he becomes something else, or you can leave. You always have that choice and therefore the power in the relationship. Try not to forget that in your journey because you are nowhere near powerless. That's important to remember and see. However, what you do with that power is your choice and one you won't make lightly (I can see that already.)

You are right, he has to do the work. Let him. Give him the space and time to do so. If he comes through, and decides he'd like to make amends, he will go to great lengths to do so. That'll be harder than what you are doing now, for perspective. If he doesn't, and you end up walking away, consider this practice for that eventuality. No time wasted either way.

Do they remember? In my case, my ex seems to still be remembering all these years later. I stopped really listening years ago when she remarried, but there have been indications as recently as today. I wouldn't trade places with them. Not for all the rice in China.

Can they be mean? And then some. Can they forget that? On the outside perhaps, and to some degree yes. For them, it can be like a different person said it. But they do remember the painful looks they received, the feeling they had when they said it, and how it impacted you. It's just that it's a delayed reaction, sometimes for many years. 10, 20, and then some. Often, by the time they assimilate the feelings and resolve the issues, if they do, it's so many years later that we are long gone and not listening. I think that's why there is so little information for scientists to study. It happens on such a long continuum, that it is next to impossible to do so in one career.

The big difference between MLC and general marital problems is timing. For instance, I was told by the MC that most of her clients come to her with 10+ years of problems. In my case, and many others, things were good, by both our admission, a few months prior to BD. Most here are a few years of discord that seem relatively minor.

I agree with job. If he wants to do tit for tat, then let him. Set a high bar though. You'll get back a mirror of what you've done, albeit a fun house mirror I used that in how I treated the kids. At first. Because she was absent from them. But then I let that go and started just doing things for me regardless of what she did. She didn't deal with it well, but I wasn't interested by then. I stopped watching the comings and goings of her life and just made sure the kids were ok. She still tries, I notice, but it's not important to me. It's more important that the kids have a mom and I have my sanity and life.

In the end, I wouldn't trade the experience. I wish it had turned out differently, HW. But I am also much more present in my life because of it. I am grateful for it. I am happy and able to do what my grandmother always advised - I am able to be alone with my thoughts and be content with that. That's worth a gold mine if you ask me. Because you can't save everyone

Peace,
AJ

[HaWho]

The thing is, he already spent sooooo many months running all around. BORING!! He is playing MLC whack-a-mole trying to make himself happy. He has beaten "the run around like a maniac mole" to death. What else does he have in that MLC bag of tricks?!?

And he knows I am over all that. That all ended the Saturday morning I smiled, turned to him and said: "you should go out tonight and have fun!"

That took the wind right out of his sails. And the look of shock on his face was priceless. That was the last Saturday he ran around like he was 18. He deduced that was a cheeseless tunnel.

Now he is onto watching Woody Allen movies--just what you want your H in MLC doing. He used to hate Woody Allen--refused to watch even one of his movies. Talk about the opposite personality coming out to play. Obviously those themes now resonate with him these days; I am quite certain.

[AJM]

Eek. I'm still hate Woody Allen movies. Never saw why people liked them.

What else does he have in that MLC bag of tricks?!?

be careful what you wish for, HW. He is compelled to follow this path for a while and will find ways to try and find his "happiness" or ask Oprah to 'splain it to him

AJ

[mleigh4]

I agree with Job, what your H said about impacting the boys is just PA BS. He wants to know your plans and because you are not telling him, he lashes back with guilt. Don't bite, you would only be letting the PA behavior win.

You and your boys know you are doing nothing wrong and that you are there for them and always have been. That is what counts!

[HaWho]

Thanks Mleigh. I see the pattern, for sure. He has the PA playbook down pat.

AJ - Ditto- I hate Woody Allen movies, too. Of course there should be sequels to his films. Where is the MLC guy 10 years after he has left wife for the 18 year old with whom he cheated?

As for what else he can do, trust me when I say the contents of "the letter" hardened me. An IC with decades of experience was rendered speechless. Words are my LL and he did a whopper of a job there.

[BrightFuture]

HaWho, I’ve been reading your thread for a while. A lot of good points here. The discussion about your H’s childhood made me think again about my H. I know he has the issues from his childhood. He was 12 and the youngest of 4, when his Dad left his Mom. H “had” to grow up very fast. He always talked about this like it was a great thing for him. He was trying to keep up with his older siblings and doing things that kids in his age didn’t do. I think that he doesn’t realize that he is actually missing that part of his childhood, being a 12 year old, and not jumping to 16-17 years of age.

I also think that I underestimated the impact H’s parent’s divorce made on him. I think it is a lot deeper. To AJ’s point “What took years to build up to, takes years to unwind”, I think it took years for my H to finally start being kind to his Mom. I think he resented her, despised her, rejected her for years, even thought she was not the one to walk out of the marriage. She was devastated. On the other side, H was treating his Dad a lot better. Go figure...

AJ, I love your posts. There are a lot of good thoughts and a lot of information for me to process.

HaWho, I’m very curious about the rest of the going away story. I think that your H will “retaliate”, LOL.

[HaWho]

Hi BrightFuture- nice to hear from you. Yes, AJ is amazing--his insight is priceless. I am so fortunate to have his advice as well as Job's (my guardian angel here on earth), Mleigh's, KML's and LouR's. Thank you all. I hope I can give back.

BrightFuture-Interesting point you make about the "gaps" in these MLCers childhoods and the need to go back. If it is not too personal of a question, did your H transfer a lot of those feelings for his mother onto you or other women in his life?

My H feels the exact same way about his mother. Unfortunately, she truly did make some awful/devastating decisions when her kids were young. She is a different woman today, but those were formative years for my H. After all, studies show those first few years are the stuff of life. There is no erase board there. It makes me hug and kiss my kids more. She did a tremendous amount of damage. Truly my H has done an AMAZING job holding it together given his history with her.

So much of life is luck: the era you are born in, the country, the parents you are given, etc.

[BrightFuture]

Hey HaWho, yes, I believe that H transferred some of his feelings about his mother into me, when he started his MLC. I think was truly trying to be a good husband and I always thought that he had some decent winsome in life.

It is really a very complicated story. His Mother loved him very much, I found the cards and journals and notes from her when he was in the Navy. She was sending him the gifts for holidays and b-days. He rejected these gifts for some time. I think he stopped doing this when we got married. I’ve heard some comments about his Mother over the years, but I don’t think he ever told me the entire story. Like I said, his mother was devastated when her H left and then married OW. There was some ugly stuff going on, I think she was suicidal and tried to get her H back by stoking him and going to his house, or something like that. Later, when she remarried, she sent H to some program, because she “declared” him a drug addict (he was about 15 and smoking pot at that time), which he thought was wrong.

H never revealed much detail about that, even when I asked. I think he’s been trying to bury it very hard for all these years.

[HaWho]

Oooh BrightFuture, yes, those are some very tough issues for your H to overcome. Ugh. Sounds of course like your MIL also had very poor coping skills, too.

AJ- I just re-read your most recent long post to me again. So much good stuff in there. Thank you for taking the time to help me. Like everyone else here, I sop up all your advice. The bit about it being a badge of honor to be the person the MLCer transfers onto made me feel better.

And the paragraph about me having power and that I choose what to do with that really resonated with me. I think I am starting to see what H needs from me (besides the usual: consistency, space, patience, etc.). I need more time to work out if I am right. But it will take a lot of fortitude to do it. I can't articulate it yet. I am not saying it will repair our M. Nor am I saying that is my goal in taking this on. More, that is the right thing to do for H and oddly, I see that it will also be part of my own healing.

I am not ready to take this on yet though as I still need to lick all my own wounds clean first.

[HaWho]

Job - thanks for pointing me to HRM's threads. Yes, her H is more in line with that with which I am dealing.

By the way, I totally believe in HRM's theory that the live-in MLCers toothbrush is a bellwether!

Get this one. When my H moved back into the master bedroom with me, he moved everything back except his toothbrush! No joke! I was really annoyed by the symbolism of that. In fact, I remember thinking that his toothbrush was deeper in the tunnel then he was. Lol!!

[HaWho]

News Flash: Just told my boys that I am going away for a day and 3/4. Despite H's deep rooted concern that I was doing damage to them by not telling them where exactly I was going, neither of them needed to be air lifted to the psych ward. In fact, neither of them even asked where I was going!! S12's response: I want a day off too (same mental age as H--all about him!). S10: kissed me and said enjoy your day off.

Here is something else I am seeing. More PA behavior. H's latest song details his victim status. He writes that he was tricked and cannot trust. Then he says the aggrieved man is backing away. I know he is still blaming me for that BASIC boundary I set.

But here is where it gets funny. He is quite paranoid. Each day he sort of booby traps the drawers of his desk a certain way. He left the "I am the Victim" lyrics a certain way, with a tiny scrap of paper just so, a dollar bill on part of the paper and a pen positioned a certain way.

How can I be sure he is in fact checking to see if I snoop? One day my kids had his phone and they were taking pictures of our dog and there were all these pictures of how his drawers were positioned and how his computer was positioned on the bed! BUSTED.

Last night I left something on his desk and he left the lyrics just so to see if I would pick them up and feel sorry for him and go pursue. The lyrics were booby trapped last night and are set to a different trap today.

Weirdest thing: he plays the song 24/7 so the lyrics are on an auto loop! I have heard them a bazillion times... I could write them from memory.

[job]

Oh my! That is too funny...but they do get paranoid and there have been others that have stated that their mlcers tested them to see if they were spying on them. You have to find the humor in all of this because he is acting just like a teenager right now. In fact, your sons are probably more mature than he is at the moment.

Have a good chuckle over this and keep moving forward.

[HaWho]

Job - it is so true. I can remember being a teenager and knowing if my mother snooped by how things were shifted.

I have started leaving things outside his door now even if it is wide open. The two scary movies he left for me, I placed outside the door. Today he left his door wide open and everything was positioned just so. He was inviting me to care!!

Too funny... I would love to get my hands on the phone, erase the current pics of the traps and reposition everything with new pics.

I am well versed in the tricks that accompany depression. When we were teenagers, one XMAS, when we were out of the house, my mother secretly unwrapped all her XMAS presents from us and then re-wrapped them! So like a child. The only problem was that she re-sealed all the presents with honey instead of tape!!! Not sure if we were out of tape or if she couldn't find it?!?

When we called her out on the sweet smelling, sticky presents, she laughed so hard and yet denied it. Like a child she thought if she wasn't caught in the act, we really didn't "know" she had done it. Lol!

[mleigh4]

My H put little pieces of paper in his door jam when he was staying in the spare room. He didn't realize I could see his reflection on a picture when he would do it. Now he has video cameras all over his place. When on vacation in July, he checked the camera inside his kitchen and showed me.

I just shake my head. What a horrible state to be in!

[Cadet]

Did I suggest you read up on trustingfaith?

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...710#Post1779710

Her bomb drop was 2008 - he moved into the basement.

He is still there, starting to reconnect with his children
but not with her.

[AJM]

LOL. The toothbrush. That seems to be the MLC symbol around here

The paranoia. Check. Seems to be part of it. The ILVBINILWY speech. Check. The spew or PA behavior. Check. Thinking they are hiding things? Check.

As job mentions, see the humor. It's like watching a teen thinking they are getting away with something, when you know full well what is going on. And they can be so serious about it. Like life or death depends on it.

But what they are really saying? To me, that's an action indicative of wanting attention. Again, like a teen.

The emotions are off the charts. I remember my ex thinking I was stomping around the kitchen to get her attention. I laughed and thought of the Telltale Heart at that time.

Looking back, it wasn't as funny to her though. And I realized along the way that no matter how much she blamed me (re-remembered things to fit the story as the MC called it). I recall thinking how sad that is. How, as she made up stories almost to the point of believing it and then wiping it all away and starting a new one, how sad it was that she felt she needed to. I'm a person that looks to motives. I'm not as interested in the result as I am the motive behind it. And it saddened me to think she felt she needed to that.

That went on for years after she moved out and remarried. Very sad to see the person I knew feel like she needed to do that.

What did that teach me? It was clearly never about me and she needed to fix herself. Whether with me or by herself or with somebody else, she needed to fix herself. Might still.

It's funny, but I don't wish it on anyone to be sure. As long as they don't stay stagnant, I think it works out eventually. I hope so anyway.

Compassion aside, can you get a special holder for the toothbrush? Maybe a superhero themed holder?

AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJ and everyone else! AJ- I love you idea for the themed holder, however H is WAY too squeamish to leave his toothbrush out. He ALWAYS leaves it on the top shelf of the medicine cabinet with the door closed!) His toothbrush is in solitary confinement for all but 6 minutes of the day.

It's my 1 year BD anniversary--whoop whoop!! Was a bit emotional at times today, but it passed. It was the perfect mix of busy and quiet. I ended up having dinner with 2 funny friends last night and that was great. One of my friends has the zaniest mind and no filter! It's a GREAT combo--lots of laughs.

The night before I left there was lots of PA, glares and of course, the ever popular silent treatment! Listen to this one. For dinner I made this new kale salad. We all eat kale broiled in a little olive oil, but this time I tried a varied kale mix rather than our usual. H did not touch his dinner at all--like a boy having a tantrum because his mommy was leaving. In fact, he took his fork and lifted the kale like he was using forceps but with a real droopy expression. NO validation for those table manners! In fact, I jokingly said to the kids--this is what you don't do when invited to the White House. Even H laughed. Then I changed H's diaper and left.

Talked to my kids last night and apparently H was really grumpy. He snapped at them when he had to help with homework. And he had to cook--which he HATES.

Feel like I have to make some LBS resolutions for my "New Year."

Now, I am heading home/back into the MLC jungle. Let's see what H has in store for me...

[HaWho]

Just returned home. It was so great to see my kids! Missed them so much.

I saw this box out in the dining room and recognized it as something of H's from our master closet.

Came upstairs to master upstairs closet and H has emptied out 90% of his clothes out. He also took a really large suitcase out, too. I had some clothes on top of the suitcase and he just swiped the clothes onto the floor and left them like that in a heap.

Looks like he is either moving out or making a BIG statement. I think I am in for full retaliatory behavior. LOTS of anger, clearly.

[mleigh4]

Uh oh. Maybe it's just PA messing with your mind behavior. I am glad you had a good time. Stay strong Hawho.

[job]

I'm glad you had a good time. Poor man/child! He had a temper tantrum. I wouldn't worry too much about the clothes being moved or the suitcase. Maybe he needs something to put some of his clothes in while living in the man cave. Oh, no! Maybe he's going to run away from home for a bit.

Stay calm and don't mention what you've discovered. Let's see how long it takes him before he'll say something about it.

[HaWho]

Job- I could hear you saying that before I wrote to you! Lol!

Cadet- thanks for the reminder of Trustingfaith's links. I will re-read those. You did recommend them before but you learn all over from re-reading.

I have slept on it and now I know he is trying to trigger my fear. He knows I so want an in tact family for my kids. Thing is, I know he wants the same. What he does not realize is, I have overcome my abandonment fear.

As sad as it would be for my kids if he left, we will be just fine. He thinks he's a parent because he is a body behind a closed door. I know now that I can pull my kids through just fine. In reality, when it comes to their emotional needs I have been parenting by myself for a long, long while. And same goes for their physical needs.

Being by himself for 2 days he should have realized life will be harder for him if he moves out. He will have the kids 50% of the time. According to the kids, he was short tempered the whole time with them. Of course he was! He HAD to put someone before himself.

I did not let on about the closet. In fact, he had the kids clean up before my return. He was in his room all last night--never came out when I returned. When he came out to say goodnight to the kids I validated and said: "thanks for having the kids clean up. The house looks nice." He said "sure" cheerfully but made no eye contact and his body language is MAD!!

Here is the thing, going away gave me more perspective. He is less mature than my 12 year old for sure. I am going to start off year 2 building a better life for me and my kids. He can whirl around or leave. If he leaves I will be calm, kind and help him. Stepping away made me see what I really have on my hands. There is a calm that is settling in me.

[job]

The time away helped you to realize that you and your children will be fine no matter what. Yes, your h is acting out and your 12 year old is far more mature than he is right now.

Sure he's mad. You did something out of the ordinary and it was unexpected. He didn't think you would do it. They like for us to stay right where they think we should be and never stray from that spot. They want to know that "mom" will be there always.

Let him stew. Maybe if he stews long enough, his heart will be come tender again and he will see the light from your lighthouse and come to realize what was in front of him the entire time...you, the kids, the love you shared and yes, happiness from being the people that you are.

Continue as you have been. Eventually he will have to ask you to something for him...but for today...keep the pot handy on the stove for that "stew". LOL!

[HaWho]

Job - yes, the trip away opened my eyes to SO much. When you live with your MLCer you can lose perspective right along with them. I have re-learned how to be happy on my own. I did not have one moment where I panicked about my future. In fact, I felt much hope and optimism. I have survived a lot in my life and I can definitely survive this, too. I just temporarily lost confidence that I could.

I typed this earlier and submitted it but it didn't post. Sorry if it duplicates. He created another song while I was gone. This one does not mention death or sorrow.

In fact, he says he sees flowers!! The refrain is: don't you see what you mean to me?

Three possibilities:

1. It is about me
2. It is about an OW
3. It is about fantasy 20 year old Raquel Welch

It is a horse race between the three...

[AJM]

I'd say try not to guess what the song is about. You could be right, or you could be wrong. Either way, it's the wrong game to play.

What he does not realize is, I have overcome my abandonment fear

Good job! The only thing here is that you're still doing it in reaction to him. I know it's early days, but I challenge you to do for you. i.e. overcome your fears for you and not just for survival. I suggest picking a self-improvement item, something you decide you'd like to change about you (if anything) that has nothing to do with H. I know he knows you after all these years and preys on the fears and weaknesses. That's just human nature. But while you approach those things that sting, pick something just for you. Just one thing each week or longer if it takes longer to work through, and work through it. Something you don't like and want to change.

Oh. And he's mad. Trying to get your attention. I usually equate it to an Alzheimer's patient. I noticed the similarity when my Grandfather (my mom died when I was a kid and was an only child. My sister and I took care of my grandparents.) They can't stand change but can't remember a thing about yesterday. MLCr's are similar to me.

Getting away helps with perspective? Say it ain't so... I say you found something you may need to explore more of and see how it suits you. I suspect it gives you a much needed break from the daily grind of MLC in the house, and gives you a chance to recharge. Explore away!

AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJ - thanks! All very good advice, especially the bit about focusing each week on improving something about myself.

So, as expected there is tit-for-tat behavior. He went out last night 'til pretty late.

And the large suitcase he removed from the master closet? He packed it with clothes and it is positioned in the garage next to the trunk of his car.

I wonder if next, he will leave out one of those poles with a sack on the end. Lol!

[HaWho]

Oh, I just need to vent or else I may say things I really regret. Co-parenting (I use that term loosely) with a live-in MLCer is so hard.

Yesterday s12 just came home in a rotten mood. Lots of emotions over the next few hours. He was upset about a few things dealing with school and was blowing things out of proportion. I am tired of having no one to help me with all these emotions from s12. When he calms down I begin to discuss a few strategies with him. H walks in as S12 and I are discussing. H takes the time to make himself dessert and pays no attention to our conversation. Then he just walks out like he is a hotel guest who does not speak the language. He has been checked out for years.

Later S12 is sitting by himself and it is clear he has been upset. H passes by and says: what's wrong? S12 says: nothing. Then when H leaves S12 says there is no point in trying to to talk to H about anything.

The self absorption continues on business as usual. He stays in his room watching TV all morning while I walk the dog, feed the kids, clean up, etc.

On the ride over to S12's game, H plays a CD mix he has compiled. (Thankfully they are not his homemade "death/sorrow/life is not worth living" songs.) Part way through the drive our wedding song comes on. A couple lines in, he changes the song.

All through S12's game H texts, listens to music and generally ignores the game. Sometimes he watches a bit when S12 is playing. There are times where other parents are clapping for our son where H just stares off into space listening to music. If S12 is not playing he pays no attention whatsoever. He does not support S12's teammates even one bit. He has the manners of a billy goat and the self awareness of those creepy stalker guys. All the parents see this behavior, of course. I want to reassure those around me and whisper "he's having a MLC and this is all VERY normal."

Then on the ride home he calls his friend and has this exuberant conversation about meeting for lunch. He is joking and jovial. As we all know, the MLC duplicity is astounding. H should win a Tony award for his acting abilities. He says the place where they are meeting. No secretiveness. Says what he will have for lunch. Lots of jokes. Ha ha. Maybe this friend should stay with us for 1 hr. to see the real H. H invites the kids to lunch (but he knows full well they are too tired to go.). He completely ignores me. He is masterful at this: inviting the kids to places he knows they don't want to go so he can check the: "I am a good dad because I invited them" box.

He hangs up and s12 says "dad is having a play date today." S10 either mishears or maybe not? He says "dad are you having a date? Do you have a girlfriend?" H laughs and says name of male friend and says yeah he is my girlfriend.

I leave for a long walk because I just feel like screaming every thought out of my head.

[job]

Breathe! You've got a grown up teenager on your hands. I know it's difficult to co-parent, especially when he's acting out. Why does he go to the games if he's not truly interested in them? Do you ask him to go? If so, next time, go by yourself and see if there is any change in his behavior.

Maybe it's time to stop doing things for him, such as laundry, etc. It's time to think about trying some 180's to see if something will work.

Your son was right...he did have a play date.

Breathe!

[HaWho]

Hi Job - I am SO frustrated today. I don't ask him to go to the games. He checks the schedule and corrals the kids so he wants to go. In fact, he is back to pretending I am not in the room at all since I set the boundary. So before the games he talks to the kids only about "time to go." He drives them to their practices, too. I think this is to get out of the house.

I haven't done his laundry since BD. I don't bake anything for him, do anything special for him, etc. I treat him like a roommate. I do make dinner for all of us and he eats that with us every night.

After talking to DB coach, I did 180's: gentle touches, offering to make him tea if I was making it, etc. But I just ended up doing more and he did the bare minimum while I continued to work like a dog.

Honestly, Job, the only time I noticed us growing "closer" is when I pursue and then put all the effort into the relationship while he kicks back and takes, takes and takes. He puts no genuine effort forth. I think when it comes to a R all he wants is the mother he never had, but with benefits.

I deserve better. I really do.

[mleigh4]

I have been thinking about you. We ALL deserve better than our MLC spouse, no doubt about that. According to our vet angels on here, we need to focus on this opportunity to improve ourselves and become better, stronger, wiser people for whatever is in store for us next. I really think you are doing a great job with this. I remember living with my H, so many of the same situations going on. You are dealing with it MUCH better than I did.

You seem very detached, which helps tremendously. Your S seem to see H for what he is right now. Stay their rock, they need you through this.

[HaWho]

You're right Mleigh. We all deserve SO much better.

I appreciate the support but today I don't feel like I am doing such a great job at all this. It's not that I am spinning because I am not. It is that I see the reality of all that he has to do to make the R viable for me and I just scratch my head and wonder if he'll ever be capable of such growth.

I continue to work on me and I know I am not married to him for who he is today but for who he can become. But he has some real hurdles to overcome and I just wonder if he'll ever have the self awareness to see these things.

Anyway, after he just made a playdate out if the blue, I decided to leave and take the kids to dinner and a movie on my own. He was pulling in as we were pulling out. I told him we would meet him at S10's game as we were buying movie tickets first. He started to say that we were leaving soon anyway. Kind of seemed like he wanted me to wait for him. And he seemed disappointed that we were going out without him. I am not going to wait around to see if we are plan A or plan B depending on which of his friends are free. I know if a better plan comes up he'll ditch us just like a selfish teenager.

Feeling better now that I took control of my evening and am doing what I want to do with whom I want to do it.

[mleigh4]

I totally understand how you feel. Honestly, I love my H, I want us to get through this and be better than ever, but I don't think my H has it in him either. It's a tough place. I am planning and thinking as if he won't.

It hurts, who thought we would ever be here? God knows I don't want to be a 46 year old divorcee. However, it looks to be the way it is heading. I don't know about your H, but I am pretty sure my H will not look inside. Mind reading, but I think in his mind, it would be easier to move on. He told me himself, he doesn't believe that relationships, especially marriage, works.

I feel you and I know, as they say, we will know when we are done. Just don't take that step until you are 100% sure.

Hoping you have a good weekend. (((Hugs)))

[HaWho]

Job - if you have any different suggestions for 180s please let me know. I am at a loss.

Hi Mleigh- thanks so much for the reach out and the kind words. I appreciate it.

In regards to what your H said about not believing that relationships or Ms work, that's quite a defeatist attitude. Did he say that in MLC or before?

As for not being in a place you expected to be, I definitely hear you on that. But, we can't control what has happened to them, now can we?

We ended up seeing the new Peanuts movie. It was cute and a refreshing break from what has become the norm for children's movies. There was no villain, no violence, nothing scary. Surprise, surprise, Charlie Brown had to look inward to find happiness and the girl who chose to align herself with him did do for his internal attributes. (Charlie Borwn is far from perfect but accepted for the good in him.)

H ended up not meeting us at S10's game. He was a no-show. After we came home from the game, dinner and the movie, I heard S10 ask him why he did not come. H said if S10 had wanted him there S10 would left him a note telling him to meet there. Guess he didn't like hearing about our plans in the driveway. I did intend to text him. He was told an hour and a half before the game. It's a 20 minute drive.

Anyway, I think his ego is funny. He played the wounded victim card. Seriously, talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. His loss. Suit yourself. It was a great game and S10 played really well.

[LouR]

Hi HaWho

I think you are a truly inspirational women, you are finding a way to live at close quarters with a MLC'er and that is a mammoth undertaking.

I continue to work on me and I know I am not married to him for who he is today but for who he can become.

That is a lovely way of putting it, hold on to that thought, I will be, thank you.

I don't have anything wise to say, I am sorry. I feel a little lost by all this at the moment, but wanted to stop by and tell you that I am keeping up with your sitch and am thinking of you.

{{hugs}}

[mleigh4]

Hi Hawho. So glad to hear you had a nice time.

My H said that in MLC. I know, I shouldn't listen to it, he loved our relationship at the start almost too clingy, but I feel he will be stuck in this mode for a long time

I hope your changes and independence get your H attention! Sending good wishes your way

[HaWho]

Oh gosh, just when I think he cannot get more immature.

He just sent me a text saying that: basketball with the kids is his thing. He informed me that he will take S10 alone in his car w/or without S12. I laughed out loud when I read it and he was in the next room. I did not answer. My little boy is growing up!

He is a real live case of Benjamin Button.

What is not so funny is what do I tell my kids as we leave at the exact same time to and from the same location? Seriously, this is so infantile.

[HaWho]

So yesterday H and I did in fact take 2 separate cars to S10's game 20 miles away. We left the house at the same time. He drove like he was trying to qualify for NASCAR. He does not sit with me at the game. He stands by himself listening to music and partially watching the game.

Then, we leave at the same time. H again speeds off. We end up pulling into the driveway at the same exact time. We have really done our part for the environment.

I know he is rip-roarin' mad that I made my own plans with the kids on Saturday night. But I never l know which H will appear. Will he just sit in his room and play music all night or up and leave to go out w/no advance notice? Or will he be in father mode? I didn't want to sit around all Saturday night waiting to see which H is behind which door. But I should have explained that I didn't want to sit around rather than up and making plans.

I have been thinking a lot about all this. Raine's H's "issue" seemed to be he needed validation through acquiring OW. HRM's H's "issue" seemed to be he was overwhelmed by real life, adult responsibilities.

I think I have figured out one of my H's main issues. He has his own fear of death and also disgust at seeing me age, for sure. He has the distancer thing going on with emotional avoidance.

The distance from him has made me realize that there was always a bit of immaturity there. But, perhaps there was some kind of regression that happened when the kids were young. Or, maybe as the kids grew and it was time to meet their emotional needs it became clear he couldn't do it?

He genuinely started acting like a third kid vs. a co-parent. I really do believe on a psychological level he wants the mother he never had/primary R he never had. In retrospect, it has been a very long, slow grind into MLC for him.

It was so incremental. Now, I look back and realize that for quite some time he was projecting onto me and using me as the reason he was unhappy. We fell into a pattern where I had to do more and more to try to make him happy. Again, it was not a cataclysmic change, it was glacial. I definitely enabled it without even realizing what was truly happening. I was so confused by how irrational he seemed.

Here is an example. Last fall, I had a competitive tennis match. H watches kids. 3 1/2 hours later H calls and leaves me a furious voicemail. Where am I? What is going on? I text and say we are in a lot of tie breakers. He texts back very mad. He accuses me of having an affair?!? Which was so off the wall to me. But hindsight shows me that was projection as he was apartment hunting then. A few weeks after that he would ask for an open marriage and be stunned when I said no. He was already believing our thoughts were the same!

I really think the only possibility for me is to back off completely. I think he needs help realizing what a healthy relationship is. Right now, if I give a little, he gives for a little while but then his hand is always out.

Obviously he can go find some pathetic young woman who will want to fill a void in herself by doting on him like a mother. I am not sure what is holding him back. He is miserable and seems to hate me.

He is back to ignoring me completely and the distance is the greatest it has been since BD. I apply logic though. I can't go back to that R. It's not me, it's him. Yes, I have adjustments to make, but on the opposite end of the spectrum. I have to give less and be with someone who can give back. He has to fix himself to be that person. But he has to give up so much to be that person.

[kml]

I have to tell you a story:

I fought long and hard for my marriage. He had an affair, we reconciled, things were good for a few years, he approached 50 and revved back into MLC gear, he finally moved out and filed for divorce.

I resisted all that time - years, really - and did everything I could to save the marriage. I was a good little DBer! And to tell you the truth, I realize, in retrospect, he probably couldn't have lasted half as long with someone who wasn't me.

After he left I was devastated - hair falling out, etc. Then a couple of months later I looked around and said "Gee! It's really NICE not walking on eggshells all the time around him!"

I haven't looked back since. I had gotten so used to it, I didn't realize what a giant energy suck it was, trying to keep him happy all the time!

[HaWho]

KML - I hear you. And, I am glad you have found much deserved happiness. But it also sounds like you gave it your all and so that may have brought you much peace. You said it yourself, you tried everything.

Here is the thing, as Job would say, there is a new me in town. I am getting pretty close to living my life just the way I want (except for the fact that my H is crazy--minor detail).

The issues are: 1. H stood by me like a rock when I went through my depression (at least 3 years). He was there in the bad times. 2. Even if I walk away from this, I am no where near ready/interested in another R. (Not for me or for my kids.) 3. I do believe this is MLC and I think he is battling. (Not for me, but I think he is in pain and confused.) I think he was slow in and will be very slow out (lonnng groan). 4. Like you KML, I need to give it my all. I won't have peace otherwise. (Unless my Hollywood crush should come a knock in' on my door first--ha ha).

Maybe H will wake up. Maybe he will look at these changes and run to a much weaker and younger woman! I am not afraid of the latter. Or, maybe I am just plain crazy.

[AJM]

He is back to ignoring me completely and the distance is the greatest it has been since BD. I apply logic though. I can't go back to that R. It's not me, it's him. Yes, I have adjustments to make, but on the opposite end of the spectrum. I have to give less and be with someone who can give back. He has to fix himself to be that person. But he has to give up so much to be that person.

Good news. You are figuring you out with the backdrop of the rest of things going on. That's a very valuable skill, HW. Very.

I need to give it my all. I won't have peace otherwise.

As long as we're telling stories...

When I was in that position, you know the one with the spouse who is now blaming me for everything they can think of (was I really responsible for global warming? Singly handedly? ) I too had that feeling that if I walked away before I was ready, I would always wonder. Never be at peace. And while I can also say I was very happy to not be walking on egg shells, I knew that wouldn't be enough if the timing wasn't right. The timing was right when I had given what I could. I have a deep well to draw from and am eternally optimistic to begin with. Could I have ended it earlier with a clear conscience? Absolutely! But I wouldn't have felt that I did what I could do. That took more time.

Looking back, I think the trick was really knowing and feeling when enough was enough. For me, that was when she remarried. It happened that fast. I didn't get that long slow ride into MLC la la land. It was faster than that as sometimes happens. Instead, I watched as she created stories to help her feel better about herself. I knew what she was doing. I knew she was trying to build her case. I contorted at first. I later started to pull away from that. I move much more slowly.

What I'm getting at is that we move at different speeds through life, relationships, etc. What's right for one is not for another and so on. You can rest easy knowing you'll do what you can until you no longer can. It's like a brick wall. You reach a point where you can't go further at any price. Until then, keep trying. Notice what works for you and leave what doesn't on the side of the road.

I'm happy to see you're evaluating those things that make you, YOU. That you're evaluating your resolve and reasons for continuing or stopping. You're seeing the humor and perspective. Very good stuff to see.

YOU are setting the pace for YOU and allowing him to respond.

Things don't end unless you stop allowing him to respond, HW. That's when it ends. No matter how you feel otherwise, and there will be highs and lows, you won't be satisfied you tried until you've reached a point where you no longer care about the outcome. Just be careful that's more than a moment of time because it may come and go a few times.

Peace,
AJ

P.S. NASCAR? Sheesh...

[HaWho]

AJ - thanks! I feel like you slapped a gold star on my forehead. Lots of great advice, as always. Sounds like you REALLY went through it with your MLCer. Oi! That is very admirable that you stood so tall.

Thing is, as I continue to put one step in front of the other, he just has the same reaction: silence and lots of anger.

I wish he could be civil in front of the kids. He categorically says hello/goodbye to the kids and says nada to me even though I am standing right there. That has to take a lot of energy. It is really stupid.

I see that he is trying desperately to stir up drama. He could see me when I read his text about wanting to take separate cars to S10's game. I laughed out loud and did not respond. I sent a work email and I know he thought I was texting him back. When I put my phone down he ran to the other room to check his texts. He kind of scurried.

When he saw there was no text from me his body language was SO angry. I know he wants a reaction. But he is still here. Suitcase is also still on standby in the garage.

Last Friday, when S12 came home so emotional and irrational, I practiced some of my new skills on him. I listened and validated. I let him rant. I set a boundary when he was rude. Then S12 came around. I thought: hey H, I am ready for your spew!! I think he needs to pull a Mt. Vesuvius.

[mleigh4]

I love your humor. I think it helps us to get through this, no? All those reasons you listed for standing are my own. It's so worth it to know we are doing all we can, for our own peace.

I can't believe the separate car stunt. You are so easy to admire!

AJM - your posts are so helpful. You have such a knack for making us think!

[HaWho]

Ok - first reach out from H since I went away for BD anniversary. (So he ignored me completely for 1 week. This morning when I first saw him and said hi, his eyes were down and he walked fast as he gave me this dopey wave that really reminded me of a teenager.) He no longer says hi or bye to me and pretty much acts as if I am not on the same planet as him.

He texts me that he needs me to take S12 to bball practice one day next week as he has a conflict. (I resist writing back: I thought bball with the kids is "your thing.")

Then he texts that we should all go out to eat for Thanksgiving. He asks if this is okay. This is probably a good idea as if he were home H would probably eat dinner by himself in the dorm room. Lol!

This AM he asked S12 to go see a movie with him today. A half hour before they are leaving, from across the house H11 (ha ha) announces (very loudly) that he was glad he ordered tickets online as he was only able to get 2 tickets. How convenient. (S10 is at a friend's so that leaves just me and he wants to make it VERY clear I am NOT invited. S12 took cotillion/etiquette classes last year. I think H is ready this year. Lol!

Just before H is walking out the door he texts me the time and place we will have Thanksgiving dinner.

Message: you are invited to Thanksgving but not the movies!

[job]

I'm so sorry, but I had to laugh. If he isn't a teenager, my name isn't "job"! Instead of two sons, you have three! LOL!
Is the suitcase still by the car or has he brought it back into the house? I guess that move didn't get the attention/reaction he wanted.

You have to have a sense of humor w/your h. I know it's frustrating...but he really is immature right now and is experiencing "growing pains". When you can step away from the drama, you can actually see the childishness of his behavior and have a good chuckle over some of this stuff. Your sense of humor will help you thru this.

So, what are you getting H11 for Christmas?

[HaWho]

Job - I SO see the humor in it! Yes, the suitcase is still ready to go! It still resides in the garage RIGHT next to his trunk.

Here is another funny one. My company needed some documentation from me for my 401k plan. All paperwork is in the file cabinet dorm room. So I asked H either to get it out for me or "allow" me to go into his room. He left the paperwork on the counter. When I was done with it, I left it on the door handle of the dorm room.

The next morning, my personal papers are back on the counter. The message he is relaying: he is DONE holding my papers for me!

I grab the papers to put them in my desk, when what do I see outside? The garbage can we use in the house! The outdoor garage can is 3 feet from where he left the indoor can. So, he is VERY independent (sends back my papers) until there are chores to do! LOL!!!

He is VERY angry. I think he expected me to react to not being invited to the movie. Instead I said "hi" and asked how it was. H11 ignored me and walked by me but S12 answered politely. I am thinking of starting MLC etiquette classes.

Then this AM as I was leaving for a hike with a friend he came out of the dorm room with a scowl and in a gruff way asked if I let the dog go upstairs. I cheerily said no and wished him a good day. I KNOW he wants drama so he can deflect. BEST advice you gave me Job was to ignore and just watch what unfolds.

Now he is in the dorm room playing music. He just lost his temper and started yelling. He also yelled when he was doing his own laundry yesterday. S12 (a good brother) asked H11 when he is so mad all the time.

As for XMAS ideas for H11, top of the list is definitely still a Barbie doll. She is perfect, he can live out his fantasy affair with her, etc. Maybe some new items for the dorm room? As a dutiful mother, I think he is ready for a book like: What's Happening to My Body? But he needs to MLC edition. The first half will cover everything he missed: separation anxiety, temper tantrums, teenage years/puberty. The second half of the book will cover andropause.

[job]

Oh, boy! He's really having a time of it. His acting out could be good movie material.

He baits you and when you don't bite, he gets miffed. Poor guy. He just doesn't realize that he's now just one of the kids and "mom" is on to him.

I do wonder why he brought in the outdoor garbage can. Guess he's trying a new ploy to see if you will react. LOL!

Keep up the good work! It's not an easy road to travel, but you've finally found your groove and now know how to respond to his behavior.

[HaWho]

Last night S12 had a tournament about 25 miles away and we all drove in the same car! Progress for Mother Earth!!!

But nasty H14 has now surfaced.

H14 left a gross glass on the coffee table all week. It was caked in chocolate from a shake he made last Sunday. When I was cleaning up the house I moved it to his dorm room. He texted me asking if I left it there. I texted back a joke that no, the dog did it. In the old days he would have laughed as we have always joked with each other. But MLCers really have NO sense of humor.

He texted back warning me to get ready. That if he found a shirt or sweater of mine in the common area, he would dump it on the desk he bought for me. Then he says, "you know, the one next to my bed, my armoire, my nightstands, my pillows, my sheets, lamps, TV, DVD player and walls and room I pay for. Next to the big bathroom I fund." Then he makes a comment that meanwhile he is in a closet sized room. (Of course he keeps moving down there all on his own.) Then he tells me not to leave stuff in his room.

He has always thrown that in my face even though we both wanted our kids to have a SAHM. I left a very high paying job to raise my kids. We were in 100% agreement on that. Now I am back to work, but he will always have this to hold in the air.

I haven't answered. I have already told him how hurtful it is that he says these things when we agreed mutually on this decision long ago. Again, it is his go-to item.

[job]

No, they do not have a sense of humor while in crisis. They look at everything as an attack towards them. Next time, leave the glass on the coffee table. I know you like to clean, but he does this stuff to annoy you and pick fights.

He really is in a funky mood these days. Guess life isn't turning out the way he wanted. As for his dorm room...that's on him. He moved into that room so he get either deal w/it or move out. So much like a teenager.

I wouldn't respond back to him. He's looking to pick a fight.

[HaWho]

Yes Job - I should not have moved the glass to the dorm room. BIG NO NO as it stirred up quite a killer bee's nest. Lesson learned.

I am proud of myself though. I did not engage him on the money comments. In fact, later in the day at S10's tournament when H paid my admittance I graciously thanked him. This was a tough one given his earlier spew about money. But I felt so much better showing him kindness. It felt true to me too.

Sadly, I know the "I own everything here" comment is a transference from how his mother talked to him when she was angry at him during his childhood. By recognizing it for what it is and from where it comes, I feel like I can distance myself from it and outgrow reacting to it. It really is not about me and I step on the gas and drive off from that one.

There is SO much anger spilling out. It reminds me of how he went into all this; perpetual anger/irritability. Seems renovations to the dorm room did not fix everything for him. Complaints about his living quarters still surface.

Poor H. He has gone from being like one of those pampered house kitties to this guy doing everything on his own. And it is all his own making. He pretty much yells through it all. If he is making himself breakfast he burns himself and starts yelling. If he is doing laundry, he stubs his toe and yells over that. Anger, anger and more anger. It makes me secretly smirk. (Housework is not as easy as I made it look all these years and he must be realizing this now that he is off Easy Street.)

Meanwhile I am on the stay-cation of a lifetime! Wow, is life easy when you get fired as a wife! All I do is take care of myself and teach my two children how to do more to pitch in and do their part. I am taking very good care of myself once again; in a way I had not done is so very long.

I just wish he would spew to my face vs. via text. He just won't do it right to me. If he did it would give me a chance to validate/talk to him rather than just ignore the text. He really hides behind his computer.

[job]

You've got this! You definitely have a good understanding of what he's doing and why. Try to stay as calm and collected as you can and do not take the bait.

He can't spew to your face because he will see the hurt in your eyes and on your face. He has to do it be text because it's not personal and he doesn't have to face you. Just let him be in his little crack box of a dorm room. He's going to find out soon enough just what life is all about and his pampered life as it was will start to look better and better as time goes on.

Keep up the good work!

[HaWho]

Yeah, I am putting pieces together and I know I am. I wish I could show him the direct kindness face to face. I think that would really speed things up for him. But I see what you mean that he can't do it to my face.

I think the best I can do is ignore the texts, not engage but continue to show kindness afterwards. I figured this all out when I went away for BD trip. I knew I had to really center myself first to walk into the eye of his crazy mommy transference storm.

He really is like the Tasmanian Devil though. He opens that dorm room door and comes out swirling like a tornado! He makes about as much sense, too! Maybe I should nail the door shut (with him inside) for 2 years!!! May not be enough nails on the planet to hold him in there. Lol!

[mleigh4]

I had to laugh at the Tasmanian devil description, I felt the same way while living with MLC H! You are handling this so well, it's really impressive.

[HaWho]

Trust me, there are many, MANY moments where I want to nail him shut in the crate and mail him back to Australia. He would for sure be rejected at Customs. Lol!!

[mleigh4]

Lol!! I feel ya!!

[HaWho]

Yesterday H11 made a cameo appearance in the living room. He watched some sports with the kids. Other than eating dinner with us, he is in his dorm room and it is music, music, music.

For the first time in 2 weeks he talked to me. It is exactly 2 weeks to the day I left for BD. (He had not been initiating saying hello or goodbye and usually ignored me if I said hello or goodbye.) Whereas yesterday, If I said something he commented on it vs. ignoring me. The first time he did so, it actually startled me! Not a good job of acting "as if" on that one!!

I had a busy day at work and was running late with dinner. S10 was cranky and whining that dinner was late. H said (and so I could hear it) that S10 should not complain because he just shows up and viola, out comes a nice meal and homemade brownies. Hmmm, H must now realize what goes on to make this happen, too.

Here is something funny. The other day a thin plastic package was delivered to the house. Our dog barked so we knew something was left. I am picking up the package just as H11 runs out of the dorm room and snatches it out of my hands. VERY secretive. Hmm. Two days later, I need something from the dorm room and that package, now opened, is in the closet. I peek at the receipt. He ordered two pairs of pants. One size up!! Guess he is seeing the results of his own cooking!

Then, hours later, I notice he has stocked the pantry with all sorts of nutritious foods. One item is wild rice. I CANNOT wait for him to cook that as his maximum cook time allotment is 5 minutes!! He will for sure be yelling over that one!!

I have learned so much from stepping back. I see that he created a lot of drama in the hopes of getting me to pursue. First he went with ignoring me to make sure I knew he was mad. Lots of angry body language, too. He tried to trigger my fears by clearing out the closet and packing his large suitcase. (It is STILL in the garage ready to go. Poor thing must be cold in that garage, maybe I should throw a blanket over it. Ha ha.) Then he spewed about money.

It feels so great to have not engaged in any of it. I realize I will never pursue again. I never used to be a pursuer but he is so PA it was just uncomfortable. So I started fixing stuff that was not mine. I see now how utterly exhausting that was!

Thank you Job for teaching me the fine art of shutting my mouth.

[mleigh4]

I am so happy that is paying off for you, you handle difficult situations great!

[Sotto]

Gosh HaWho, I am impressed with your insight and how you handle things WRT your H. It is one thing to sit here at a distance, reading about it, and quite another to be there in the thick of it and recognising what is going on.

I agree that non-reaction is an important part of our response to MLC. It significantly reduces the drama and there is a quiet strength that grows within us as we manage not to respond and look after our side of the street - credit to you.

I'm looking forward to wild rice cooking night....even I'm too lazy to cook that!!

[AJM]

Not so sure you should break your arm patting yourself on the back, just yet HW. Learning to STFU is a tough lesson we all seem to learn daily

I have learned so much from stepping back. I see that he created a lot of drama in the hopes of getting me to pursue. First he went with ignoring me to make sure I knew he was mad. Lots of angry body language, too. He tried to trigger my fears by clearing out the closet and packing his large suitcase. (It is STILL in the garage ready to go. Poor thing must be cold in that garage, maybe I should throw a blanket over it. Ha ha.) Then he spewed about money.

It feels so great to have not engaged in any of it. I realize I will never pursue again. I never used to be a pursuer but he is so PA it was just uncomfortable. So I started fixing stuff that was not mine. I see now how utterly exhausting that was!

It seems you're seeing the humor in MLC for Dummies, more and more. As I read your post, I saw that post in my mind again. In your case, the question of what to do when confronted with X behavior or if somebody is treating you a certain way, seems to have been answered.

The problem eventually becomes that a relationship is about more than reactions. Actions have to be there too. And for you, right now you are leading those actions. On the one hand there is humor in what is happening. On the other, it's kind of sad that he's going through all of this, right? Wouldn't want to be him.

At some point the balance will shift again. Learn to keep your balance, yeah?

Nice to see the updates and that you are doing well, HW.

AJ

P.S. Wild rice cooking? Sounds like an interesting game show

[HaWho]

Hi Mleigh, Sotto and AJ. Good to hear from you all and thank you for the support.

AJ - don't worry, I am not giving myself too many high fives over here. After all, my M is finis and my H13 is having a MLC. It is sobering.

It is odd that you say I am leading actions. In some ways I see that because I am controlling my reactions. But, in most ways I feel I am just waiting for him to do something (vs. hiding in his dorm room). This latter part feels very reactionary.

I have had moments this week where I have gone all the way back to shock. Maybe the holidays are bringing on the emotions. I am still processing the raw ugliness of the letter he sent me. I am having a very difficult time moving forward from that. It is not just what he writes but how he writes it. There is this crazy self entitlement to his tone. At one point after he has made all these demands of me, he even tells me he can get all these things elsewhere! (It is truly mean that he dangles abandonment card. It was hard not to go screaming at him that no one is chaining him here. I still can't figure out why he hasn't left as he told me everything in that letter was required!!! (Good luck on that one!!!). I do worry that he is going to get stuck here. What is going to move him forward???

As for the humor, I have to try to laugh. Now, I finally am even laughing at certain parts of the letter. But there are certain things in that letter that not even the Pope would tell me to forgive (ha ha). It is very, very mean. I do believe, that despite his self isolation in the dorm room, that he is on the mean end of the MLC spectrum. This too he would have learned in his FOO.

[AJM]

But, in most ways I feel I am just waiting for him to do something (vs. hiding in his dorm room). This latter part feels very reactionary.

I can see in your writing that you are "less" reactionary than before. That's really what I'm calling out. There's a mix to be sure, but it's changing and that's a good thing.

In fact, change is something you can count on. You may not know what it will be, but you can rest assured that change will occur. And is. That means YOU aren't stuck. You aren't trapped. You aren't faced with having no choices. Kind of empowering if you think about it.

Forgiveness. That's a struggle for me for a lot of years. Each is mean in their own way. It's personal and they know exactly what to go after that will have maximum impact. In my case, she went after the one area most important to me - my family. My kids, my father, my sister, etc. Why? I dunno. Other areas of our lives together? She totally left those alone. It was like, she wanted to hurt as much as possible just short of shooting me or otherwise harming me. Going after me directly would have caused little impact, and she knew that. She also knew that having an affair was (what she thought) was the quickest way to hurt me. When that didn't work, she went after the other items. Slowly, methodically, with malicious intent. I know how that goes.

I have no illusions of the hurt he has caused you, HW. I've lived similar in some ways. In others, it's a personal hurt that not everyone would understand.

I do honestly think that forgiveness is your way out though. Even the pope would tell you to forgive.

The hard part there is understanding what forgiveness means.

In its truest sense, forgiveness means to not expect payment for the transgression. No remuneration. You absorb the cost with no expectations. That's not the same as allowing it to continue or acting like it didn't happen and sweeping it under the rug.

That's a very tough row to hoe, m'dear. But I can tell you I see the value in forgiveness. Not just for you or your family or friends. For everyone concerned. But I will say the benefit to YOU is by far the greatest.

First things first. You still have some things to process and work through. Best to focus on those for now.

And yes, he is on the mean end. For some reason, for some it is not enough that they walk away and pursue their new selves. They feel the need to destroy what remains of their old lives and anyone near them.

Meh. People.

Welcome to the club

AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJ - thanks for taking the time to help me through this bump. I agree, that MLCers hit hard at our most vulnerable points. My H definitely does this.

I know I need to forgive. I do understand it is the right thing to do and that it will benefit me, too. I am not looking for him to apologize for the things he said nor am I expecting him to try to "make up for it." Really, forgiveness will mean I can truly let it go. I am not ready yet. I still have a lot of anger (and sometimes shock) over it. But, I do see the humor in some of it. Parts of it are truly ridiculous where other parts are very, very ugly. I try to remind myself that messages reveal much about the messenger.

This morning H came into the kitchen and I said good morning. He said good morning. Them he asked S10 if he wanted to see a movie. S10 said yes. Then H asked S12 if he wanted to see the movie. S12 also said yes. Then H13 walked out the door. All with me in the room! Really mature! Lol!

He comes back from his walk. I am folding laundry and from the other room H asks if he should buy 4 tickets or 3. I answer that I would like to come but if it is boys only (And they truly ARE ALL boys) then I can certainly occupy myself today. He says it is not boys only.

Looks like the squirrel is coming out of the tree today...

[mleigh4]

I am glad he ended up inviting you. As always, you handled it well. Hopefully your sons know that the antics your H pulls is not the way to treat a woman, or any other person in the house for that matter. Sorry, it just bugs me that he ignores you in front of them like that. This is a scary part of MLC, our children see a really shabby way of treating someone you love. That was a huge issue with me when H lived at home, however leaving your family is no better! Lol

Continue to be the healthy example for your boys. I am sure you do. I hope you had a fun movie day!

[HaWho]

Oh Mleigh yes, all the kids of MLCers have been dealt a very unkind hand; one way or another.

I ended up having a nice day. S10 had a game, we all drove in the same car (woo hoo), we grabbed lunch and went to a movie. H was polite. He offered to buy me a ticket at the game. He actually said "two tickets please" vs. acting like I was this random person for whom he was buying a ticket. He offered to buy me a water when he was buying himself one. It was civil and I am thankful for that!!

After lunch he needed to grab something at a convenience store and I needed something from the grocery store. I suggested dividing and conquering and he said no, let's all go together to each spot. Maybe this is a holiday peek out?!?

There was not too much conversation but I didn't feel tension. We had a few joking moments but otherwise it was pretty quiet. He did make eye contact with me on several occasions and that was noteworthy.

What I need to work on, is, if he continues to come closer, I need to not distance. I am still so angry about that letter and I need to get my frustrations out in other ways as I know I cannot talk to him about it. That'll just start this whole cycle again.

I just want a return to civility. This is such a time and energy sink...

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, I'm glad you had a reasonable day with your H. As you say, it could be a peek out for the holidays - but best to remain on your own course. Pleasant, no pressure, doing your own thing etc. I'm in the UK, and we don't have Thanksgiving here - but funnily enough, the social group I'm in is hosting a big Thanksgiving dinner for 40 people and I'm helping organise/attend. My first ever Thanksgiving event! Another thing I might never have done, had H & I still been together.

Now, as for this letter. There may come a time when you can discuss the letter with your H, share your pain about it with him. However, for now you may want to think about how you can process your own feelings about it. Please bear in mind that your H wrote this letter from a place of great pain and that there was probably a lot of projection in there too. In many ways, the letter is more about him than you I think. However, in MLC we are the closest ones around and so what they are doing for themselves feels like it is done to us. Can I ask if the letter is still in existance? I can't recall if it was a paper or electronic letter. If it is paper, might it benefit you to have a ceremonial burning and let the ashes float off into the sky? Or if electronic, print it out and do the same? I'm not suggesting this will resolve things, but perhaps may help your own journey of forgiveness and healing.

Have a great Sunday xx

[tfish08]

It is very frustrating to be surrounded by all boys especially of the tween age group. I think my husband is stuck at 11...It is hard to see the hissy fit. Stay Strong. You sound like you are doing a great job

[job]

I'm glad you had a nice day yesterday. It's difficult to know whether the mlcer will be nice, moody or just plain childish at times. Continue to detach. Detaching is far different than distancing. I agree...if he's coming closer, you do not need to play the distance/pursuer dance w/him. You do not want to start that crazy cycle up w/him again.

Detaching, i.e., not reacting to his behavior has worked and if you continue to do so, he will know it's not a game.

Keep up the good work!

[HaWho]

Thanks Sotto, Tfish and Job!

Sotto- your plans sound AMAZING! That is the way the holiday is meant to be: a large group gathering to give thanks!

Tfish- nice to meet you (though I wish it was under better circumstances!!). I will read up on your thread and post to you.

Job- you nailed it. COMPLETELY different age emerged from the dorm room today. He has been in solitary confinement all but 1 hour today. Maybe I should check under the floor boards of the dorm room to see if he has other "skin suits" he hides under there.

We were on our way to S12's game but had to pick up S10 at a friend's first. As we are approaching the street we need to turn onto, H says to S12: what street is it? And I am sitting right there. Looks like I am being ignored today. What is S12 to make of these shenanigans? H is 11 but with a driver's license.

Then as we come to the game, he pulls up in front and asks us both to get out of the car so he can park. Usually I walk in with him. During the game he is off by himself listening to music.

I am tempted to make name tag stickers and he can just make it easier on me by ifentifying who he is: H11, H13, H17 or H6. I have seen all of these so far.

Thing is: I am prepared for this now. I don't spin and I don't give it air time anymore. I know not to distance and not to react. I am practicing these skills today. I pretend he is S12's twin and then it is easier to detach from the antics.

[HaWho]

Here is something new! Non the ride home H cracked a joke to me. I think he cracked one joke over the summer and before then, I can't even remember. H had a GREAT sense of humor.

On the way to son's game he almost turned off on the wrong exit (which he has done ALL the time in MLC). I jab my finger to the left telling him wrong way. He maneuvers off the exit ramp.

On the way home I remind him we need to pick up S10. He veers into the wrong lane, ready to exit off the wrong exit. I remind him again. Minutes later as he exits off the correct exit, he jokes that I have only a few more minutes to remind him that we need to pick up S10. I laugh and say that next time I won't remind him and we will be at the Mexican border before we know it. He laughs and says he knows where he is going.

I laugh and ask why he was getting off the wrong exit until I pointed him off the ramp. He jokes and says he didn't see me do that; he just figured it out himself. S12 calls him out and says he is lying and that I am alwaya helping H figure out where he is going. H chuckles and says he does not need help. As he turns into the correct street, where S10's friend lives, I point him the other way! He stops and starts to turn around. S12 is silent and so am I. We wait for him to turn around. Without words we are in kahoots. When he turns around we die laughing telling him it was the right street. H insists he knew that! I say: no, if you knew it you would not have turned around. S12 agrees. S12 says: we were just here one hour ago! I say in a joking way: H has vision AND memory problems! S12 and I are hysterical and H is smirking.

[HaWho]

The good news: for the first time H texted me about non kid related stuff. (Keep in mind that after the "letter related boundary" he swore he would never talk with me again unless it was absolutely critical.) The bad news: he texted me to ask what the spice was in the soup that I made. Then he discussed the complexity of the soup. It was a conversation out of Bon Appétit. Lol!

So, yesterday out of the clear blue, as I was working, I had this feeling overtake me. I imagined myself back on the east coast alone with my kids all grown up. And I could see myself very happy.

I can see that either way I have an uphill battle. I get it that there is no putting this all back the way it was. Either we will be administering CPR to this M or I will be divorced and moving along. I have never done either and I am sure they are both excruciating in their own ways. Point is: whichever way it goes it's going to hurt. It is impossible to tell if both options are on the table, which one will offer me more long term happiness.

Sotto- I forgot to answer you in regards to the letter. I do still have it. Oddly, today, I was struck by how truly sick H has to be to have written all that to another human being. And to think that I called him out on it and then he still voiced no remorse. I had this moment where instead of anger I just felt sorry for him. Sotto- you are right. There must be incredible hurt in there to make saying that okay. My IC said the same. So far, I have only been able to feel my own pain over all that he said. This was the first time that I just felt sad for him and what has become of him.

Maybe this is the start to forgiving him? Maybe it is the start of acceptance. The issue is, that the gist of the letter is true. I am aging. Of course so is he! No one is carding him anymore, trust me. But I cannot stab him back by pointing it out to him. It might feel good for a few minutes but later I always feel really bad if I fight dirty. Maybe these would have been much deserved truth darts though?

His inability to accept that time will exact a toll on me makes it hard to imagine a future with him. Obviously, I can't flip the hourglass here. Even if I can forgive all the horrendous things he wrote, how am I supposed to ever feel truly comfortable with him again? The guy told me he can get younger women. I don't want to spend the rest of my life feeling less than because he views me as being on the downward slope of the hill. Won't I always be thinking that he wishes he could be with a 20 year old?

I can disregard the whole "I don't love you anymore" spiel because I know that is not true! But this is different. It is the first time I am showing visible signs of aging and he's longing for an exit strategy. It is so spineless. Maybe he lacks grit. I can't live my life being afraid of aging or feeling shame for what is normal. And I don't want to be with some pansy of a guy who is sqeamish over aging.

[kml]

I can't live my life being afraid of aging or feeling shame for what is normal. And I don't want to be with some pansy of a guy who is sqeamish over aging.

Amen, sistah!!!!

It's part of their MLC, that fear of aging. My ex is fighting it my marrying a woman 17 years younger and hanging out with her young friends (not that I have anything against her, she seems like a sweet girl and is nice to my grown kids).

But at 40, you are still YOUNG! I would love to have my 40 year old body back (I'm 59). But most men who are not OCD or MLC (my ex was both) are NOT checking out your imagined flaws. Since my divorce I dated several men, including some who were quite a bit younger than I, and not one of them had complaints about my body. My current long term boyfriend is 8 years younger, built like a pro athlete, and he thinks I'm perfect the way I am.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, I don't think the rejection of 'ageing you' (for want of a better term - apologies) is really about you. I think it is about his own fears relating to growing old. He can't bear to see it and accept it in you because that would mean accepting it in himself.

I think ageing you is probably very beautiful to him on so many levels. However, his fears prevent him from seeing that just now. Please know that this is about him. We are many of us on the downward slope. I'm more than halfway to ninety now....but growing older doesn't make us less thans. We are all beautifully unique miracles.

[HaWho]

KML and Sotto- thanks. I see both your sides so equally.

Funny: I read your post KML and I just want you to know, that if someday I need to fold up my marital tent, I may be going on a double date with you! Lol!!

I don't know how/if he will come out of this, obviously. And here's the real ugly, ugly truth of this. If he truly "comes out of this" how will I really know if that disgust over my aging or aging in general, isn't secretly still lurking in him? I hate to say this, but I don't know if I can trust this guy to grow up to be a deeper man. These days, a thimble is deeper than he is.

Let's face it, many, many men leave for younger women. As you say Sotto, it's not about the women to whom they are married. But that doesn't change the fact that they are chasing skirts of 20 year olds. And maybe if they stay married they are secretly coveting those young women over their wives.

Truth be told: there is no way to know which H is going to emerge from that dorm room. What if he just has bad character on this issue and it is only now surfacing? Gosh, do I feel awful voicing that...

[job]

Please start a new thread. You now have 103 postings/replies.

[LouR]

Hi HaWho

I agree with kml and Sotto, your h is projecting his own insecurities onto you. Body acceptance is one of the more difficult things to master, we tend to see ourselves completely different to those around us, we compare ourselves and become fixed on seeing what isn't an issue at all. Don't allow this man, any man ..or woman .. to make you feel less than you are, which a beautiful women, mother and friend.

I loved reading your post, you have a forcefulness around you today.

[HaWho]

Okay: new thread. Here is the link to the old one:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2626398#Post2626398

LouR-I am circling you into this thread. I do feel this forcefulness today. I see how hard both these paths are. Honestly, if he walked upstairs this instant and said he is done, I would truly accept it. How different is that from a year ago?!?

And unlike before, I wouldn't see myself as failing because my M folded. I have separated my worth from the status of my marriage. I would feel so bad for my children but I can see that it is him and not all me.

From the get-go I was willing to work like a pack mule. I acknowledged my weaknesses and faults. He told me that day it was all my fault. If he ended the M now, it would be okay because it would mean he still can't lift a finger to work on it.

I know the body issues are transference issues. I get that. But that does not mean he will outgrow it.

[HaWho]

Here is the link to my new thread:


http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...Post2626402Here is the link to my new thread: