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Originally Posted By: tl2
I'm not disagreeing with you here, zues. But when you say "because I hadn't gotten that far yet". That YET is the key.

I actually think physical separation when there is an intense angry outburst, even if it is the first one, is often warranted because it is a sliding scale, a continuum, and just like any addiction, the more it's done, the more it's likely to be done again, and the more likely the intensity will increase over time.

We have to look at it from the perspective of the recipient. I am a big muscular guy, former athlete (not pro like you) but big and strong. My wife is a cute little 5'1" little lady. All I saw was me expressing my hurt at what she did to me, and her trying to ignore me for doing it. What she saw was a much bigger, stronger man acting in a manner she perceived as intimidating and threatening.

The way I see it, as the bigger, stronger person as well as being the man, I should be using everything in my toolbox to create a soft, loving space for her where she feels protected and loved. And I have to do that even if she doesn't want to be in it right now.



Oh, I meant "I haven't gotten that far yet" in the sense that I hadn't overcome all of my anger tendencies yet. Not in the sense that I hadn't caused physical violence or more damage yet. That will NEVER happen.

We can agree to see differently on this, I just wanted to share my opinion. My opinion is this: Your spouse should be as important to you as your son or daughter.

This isn't just anger, this is for all things. All the reasons people give to leave their spouse. "My H was depressed, I couldn't live with him. He wasn't emotionally available. He got so angry. He drank all the time. He didn't hold a job." Etc.

If your son was depressed, would you kick him out? If your daughter was 'emotionally abusive', would you kick her out? Of course not. You'd get through and do your best to be a leader.

For example STBX left me citing I had 'mental health issues'. She's diagnosed me with 100 different disorders. Yet she does the same for my son and gets him counselors, works with him, and tries to help him grow through these challenges (which in my opinion she is responsible for much of!). This is what I'm talking about.

Now, there are lines that are crossed. If your son is stealing from you, doing drugs in the house, and flying off in violent rages...yes, at that point even your son would have to go. But I believe that the standard should be no different for your spouse than your child (or similar at least).

In 95%+ of the cases I see on the DB forums the WAS left for reasons that they NEVER would have kicked a child out of their home for. What's scarier to me is that the majority of the LBS's themselves still site their spouses flaws as reasons they wouldn't go back to the M without changes. Yes, I want a better M too. But I simply don't believe in D any more than I believe in leaving a baby in a dumpster because that's not what you want in your life right now.

Yes, there are shades of grey. Raising your voice once in ten years is different than multiple times a day. Losing your cool for 2 seconds, vs. 2 minutes, vs. 2 hours is vastly different. And despite the fact that verbal abuse is very destructive, there are definitely some big lines crossed when physical violence is introduced (even if emotional is as destructive it is less obvious to recognize).

Unfortunately it seems like too often those that are dealing with abuse don't recognize it and deal with it. And those that are simply WAS's play the abuse card to justify their decisions when (as I feel in my case) I am just a normal guy that has imperfect moments, while never using foul language, posing any threat, using fear in a controlling way, and that avoids any escalations for years at a time.

Again, everyone gets to draw their own line. This is mine. I feel I'm on the outskirts of the norm so I'm not looking for agreement. Just sharing and discussing. Thanks gang.

Last edited by Zues126; 10/11/15 11:25 PM.

Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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Originally Posted By: SunnyB
Originally Posted By: Girlonf
And it was angry/ violent outburst number 2. This time, it lasted at least 2 hours, and all the neighbours were outside the house, worried about my safety. I knew that if I had given the slightest indication of fear or alarm, the police would have been called. To say that my kid and I were terrified would have been to make the understatement of the year. I still get sick to my stomach when I think of my kid cowering behind the door, too scared to even close the door to the room.
Girlonf, this concerns me a great deal. I probably would be asking for a restraining order instead of trying to reconcile. You say that outburst #2, was far more violent than outburst #1. What happens with #3? Please be very careful, for the sake of yourself, and most importantly, for the sake of your child. Your child's safety is more important than your M. Your H has a lot of work to do, and it has nothing to do with you. So continue with your path, fix what needs to be fixed in you, but realize that you can't fix your H, he has to do that.


Thanks SunnyB for your input. Yes, I have put in place one. Which was what made XH and his family so made with me. XH is still very mad with me over this and tells me that the sight of me reminds him of his outbursts.

I agree with you that my kid's safety is more important than my marriage, and I do approach reconciliation with caution. XH is undergoing mandatory counselling. I am willing to consider reconciliation as the outbursts are not frequent- 2 in 10 years. And I realise that they are the result of our SSM and XH's tendency to bottle up his feelings.

And he says that he bottles up his feelings because he is wary of my critical reactions. He doesn't like it when I don't look happy and when I argue with him without letting him say when he has to say. I also have to admit that I have one hell of a Biatchy Resting Face as he is not the only one to tell me that. We have a lot of work to do if we ever want to get back together again.


You can call me Dory/ Grl.

As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"

It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
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Thanks Cadet for the suggestion, am plowing through the pursuit and distance thread now. smile


You can call me Dory/ Grl.

As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"

It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
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Hi Sotto,

I have read read DR. I do realise that XH has a lot of issues to work through. Cadet's list is really useful and I am still in the midst of plowing through some of the threads which I have not read, especially the abuse one. I have read quite a few but I guess I need a refresher course as there are so many concepts to wrap my head around.

XH is at the stage where he realises that what he had done was scary. However, he still feels that I am the one responsible for his outbursts. He says that he has forgiven me for causing his outburst but he still tells me that the sight of me reminds of what he has done, and he gets angry with me because of that. The counsellor I am seeing for his outburst tells me this is a small step in acknowledgement, but XH is definitely not at the point where he assumes full responsibility for his actions yet.

While I totally do not condone his actions and I know that I am not responsible for his outbursts, I do realise that our dysfunctional communciation would have added to his stress.

His outbursts are rather infrequent- 2 in 10 years. For us to be able to work again, we will really have to change our communication methods. I guess talking to you ppl has sort of clarified what are some of the things that must be in place for me to even want a reconciliation.


You can call me Dory/ Grl.

As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"

It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
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Hi Zues,

He has never laid hands on me or my child, or I would have absolutely gone the darkest of dark on him and imposed a permanent NC. Which is why I am in a dilemma.

Although he has never laid hands on me, he has definitely gone on a rampage throughout the house, breaking things that are in his path. He has snapped beyond reason and do things like bang his head on the wall, table etc while I tried desperately to restrain. He has also screamed and ranted uncontrollably. I tried to protect and calm down my kid who was cowering behind the door and let me tell you, my kid was so terried, she couldn't even cry. And for a mother, to see your child like that, it really is the most heartwrenching scene ever. And I don't ever want to see that again.

When I tried to console my kid, he demanded that I remain in the path of his anger so that I could witness his thrashing of stuff and his ranting. I tried to close the door shut but he pushed it open. In the end, I had to leave my cowering and shivering kid alone in the room, just so that I could close the room door and she didn't have to witness any more of the rampage. And his last rampage lasted more than 1 hour, and was loud enough for the whole estate (granted that we live in a rather small estate).

This is really painful for me, and as I type this, I can still hear the screams and the crashing and I can still see my kid cowering. I still get sick to my stomach and I still can't stop the tears from flowing. Do I get PTSD? Yes, when I hear loud and sudden sounds, I jump out of my skin, even when I am driving.


He is not physically violent. But he snaps, and I cannot mindread. And I am terrified of his next episode, especially when it seems that there are so many things that I can do to make him angry without even me realising anything.


Did he mean to hurt my kid? I don't think he intentionally did. And that is what is scary. The fact that his emotions override his intentions and he can't seem to do anything about it.


You can call me Dory/ Grl.

As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"

It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
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Hi Azzwork,

You bet I am. eek I am not quite sure how I have managed to lose 20 pounds with all those humble pies that I have been guzzling down by the dozens, but humble pies have been a big part of my daily diet. Humble pies aren't really my favourite now, but I realise that I am not quite done with them yet. :P

I am not quite there yet, but I am definitely working on my Biatchy Resting Face, and my aloof/stern/critical approach. smile


You can call me Dory/ Grl.

As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"

It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
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Originally Posted By: Zues126
I will add I've had a better R with my kids than ever. YET- 9 months ago I lost my temper. S and D were fighting, and I lost my cool. Son locked himself in the bedroom. I forced the door open with my shoulder. He was scared. I was yelling.

I cooled down quickly. We talked through it. I acknowledged that I was human and that while this wasn't the way I should act, I couldn't promise never to do it again. But I DID promise that I would never hurt him. We talked about it. He has his own challenges.

And you know what? We have a great R. He loves me, I love him, we can get upset now and then and it's ok.

And you know what else? My D was 10 times more angry than I was. He didn't beat me, but he did believe in spanking, and did that in a rage a few times. I WAS scared of my dad - ***WHEN HE WAS MAD***. But I loved him, never thought anything of it, and you know what? I have a GREAT relationship with him.

To me this reaction is just a sign that M isn't possible anymore. Everyone deserves better.


Agree with you that the XH probably deserved a better 'Me' too.

But Zues, the diff btw you and XH is that you calm down pretty fast, and you acknowledge that there are better ways to interact. You don't pin the blame on others. XH gets angry at the fact that other ppl make him angry and lose his temper... And he can get annoyed at quite a bit of things.


You can call me Dory/ Grl.

As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"

It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
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Folks, sorry if my responses are super delayed as I am in a totally different time zone and my posts are moderated. Going out for a meal and will be popping back right soon.

But thanks so much for all your input!


You can call me Dory/ Grl.

As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"

It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
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Originally Posted By: Girlonf
Hi Azzwork,

You bet I am. eek I am not quite sure how I have managed to lose 20 pounds with all those humble pies that I have been guzzling down by the dozens, but humble pies have been a big part of my daily diet. Humble pies aren't really my favourite now, but I realise that I am not quite done with them yet. :P

I am not quite there yet, but I am definitely working on my Biatchy Resting Face, and my aloof/stern/critical approach. smile


Im glad to hear this. Im not an expert on what your husband is going through, but I have been around long enough to help you work on you. Im not saying that you are 100% responsible, but you ARE 50% of the reason that the M failed. Even if you dont repair THIS marriage, you still have a lot of life left and will likely get into another R (whether its with your H or not); the skills that you learn now can help make that one even better!

Im glad to hear that you are working on some of your own issues. What kinds of things are you doing to change your approach? (if I may be so nosy).

And dont worry about the delay. Theres nothing but time around here smile

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TL2, I was very touched reading your post. You sound like you've come a long way. I wish my XH can read your post, but of course he will not and he should not. Your sitch sounds very similar to my sitch.

One of the reasons why I had become emotionally detached from the marriage a few years ago was that I couldn't deal with his emotional detachment and his anger. But the irony is that before his latest outburst, I really thought that things were getting better as I could see the effort he was putting in. Which was why I really couldn't understand the reason for his outburst. And I was scared and confused.

Anything triggered your AHA moment?

Complicating the matter further is the presence of the OW. XH says that he only started with her after I served the papers. But I also know that they were planning to get married right after the divorce.She was willing to give him another kid, even though she already has 2 of her own, and isn't really very young anymore. I later realised that that was why he didn't agree to an abatement although he knew that there many things on my plate at the same time and I needed to breather.

There is no need for XH to change. He has options. And that option, plus some of his family, has always assured him that he is not the violent person I said he is. Now, I have never said that he is violent person. I separated the man from his actions and knew that he and I needed help in the dynamics of our relationship.

XH has confided in the OW every damn thing about our marriage, including the restraining order. And the OW tells him that he is not like that. Hello???? She was in the background when he was screaming at me and comparing me to prostitutes (for the record, I came out worse) and she told him that he is a gentle person.

With pple like these around him, there is no impetus for him to ever want to change.


You can call me Dory/ Grl.

As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"

It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
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