Narcissism and divorce; may be no other option.

[Grey]

I want to preface this by saying I don't disagree with the approach and techniques of DB or Michelle Weiner-Davis; both have been instrumentally helpful to me and I sincerely believe can be helpfult o many more people than they are affecting today.

My wife is a narcissist. As an adopted child, she was told by her adopted father's second wife and her sisters that "this dinner table is for family, and 'family' means by blood only."

She was 8 years old. It was Mother's Day. And for all the past history and experiences she hasn't talked to me about, she remembers that day like a permanent stamp on her psyche and deliberately changed her behavior ever since.

Today, at 51, she's a narcissist. She developed it I sincerely believe as a form of protection, and in spite of whether that protection is necessary or not.

I've done everything I can on my own, hoping that would help her see change and respond to it. I have grown, I've learned to love myself and live my own life and get back in touch with my friends and family who love and support me, I've gotten healthy (quit smoking 5 years ago, back to a healthy weight, and I no longer binge drink with her), and I've had success in my personal business.

But by nature she isn't happy for my success and happiness. Right there is a big red flag. It's a defining characteristic of narcissitic personality disorder.

And yet I continued to believe if I just did what I could do and focused on me that eventually she would turn away from damaging behavior, not closer to it.

I thought that meant buying her what she wanted, whatever it was. After all, that made her happy.

I thought it also meant changing my behavior to be whatever she wanted. If she wanted to drink all night on the weekends, so be it. If she didn't want to go to my parents' house for dinner anymore, I agreed we should stop, as well as other friends and family. If she wanted to go to a beach, I'd rent the house for us. If she wanted a car and puppies, I bought them all on the same day. If she missed a car payment, I can't bring it up and must pay it. The list never stops because I never let it. I'm a rescuer---I try to fix every situation on my own and DB'ing seemed like a reinforcement of that concept.

But that's not what DB'ing is. You have to take care of yourself first and foremost. I thought I was because I wanted so badly to fix the thing most important to me, my marriage, which in retrospect is clearly not following some of the fundamental rules of DB’ing.

More to the point, my W doesn’t think she’s part of the problem, or if she does then her behavior is on purpose (I think it’s a mixture of both). For example, she is relentlessly verbally abusive to me. It’s painful. If I say something about it, her response is either that it was a joke or that “everything hurts” me. That shows not taking responsibility for her own behavior and putting others down to put herself up. I won’t go through all the traits of narcissistic personality disorder but learning about it has helped me heal a lot and to put literal distance between us; right now I’m living outside of the house (which we agreed on) for the past week. Even that I did for her rather than for me, but it’s been very beneficial to finally have a more complete objective viewpoint.

I’ve been getting some kind of professional help for over 2.5 years now and it’s been invaluable. I believe it can improve anyone. It’s like a vitamin----not everyone needs it but everyone can benefit from it.

But that doesn’t help with a narcissist. In fact, if you suggest it, it becomes detrimental because they must be right, not your or anyone else, and therefore you’re trying to change them. If you’ve ever seen the film The Matrix think of it as trying to tell someone what the Matrix is; you can’t. They have to see it for themselves. They have to take the red pill. They have to take conscious action. I wouldn’t say that’s impossible for anyone, but it’s inherently against the nature of the narcissist and who they are, which they will defend to the end no matter how many people it hurts or how badly it hurts them.

And in the meantime, it’s been outrageously destructive for me. My credit has been cut in half, my self-esteem has been crushed, and any negative situation I always try to alleviate on my own, which has destroyed my self-worth. Sex has been gone so long it’s almost a non-issue thanks to bigger issues at hand and the constant negative reinforcement by her behaviors.

I am now considering divorce not because it’s what I want; it never was. I’m considering it because it’s what I have no other choice for to meet my own needs, the needs that every human being has an implicit right to.

I have not committed to divorce, but at some point no matter how much you do on yourself the other partner must eventually change as well to slow or stop dangerous and hurtful behaviors. In my case, it has only gotten more malevolent and deliberate by my W.

I’m curious, has anyone ever dealt with and reconciled with a narcissistic spouse and had positive results or otherwise come to the same conclusion for their own sake? We don’t have children, we don’t have shared assets (everything is in my name) and no outlying circumstances such as infidelity, death or sickness of a loved one, loss of work, etc. Anyone can change but the narcissist is pre-disposed by nature and definition to do more than just resist it, but to actively combat it, and I’m curious if there is any help or advice for getting past it from personal experiences here.

[Solo15]

Hey Grey, sorry to take so long in reaching out. Things have been tough.

So I read through your posts from last year, and now this one and I had a couple of words for you.

First off, I want you to think about it this way. This relationship is not healthy. If fact, it is deeply broken. This forum is very much about saving marriages. There are many points of view regarding the morality of breaking vows, of leaving ones SO, of giving up. That being said, I am pro marriage. I think that one cannot take their vows lightly. I will also say that you have a basic need as a man and human being to both give and receive love, sex and intimacy, to be honored, cared for, respected, and have control of your own life. To be treated well.

I can only imagine how mercilessly unhappy you have been in this relationship. Think of it this way, relationships are 50/50. There is no way that you can take responsibility for more that half. Your M is deeply abusive. My BIL said something to me recently that woke me up a bit. He was saying that both my W and me have this deep brokenness in us that we each have to find and fix. That things cannot get better unless each of us does that. I was incensed. I said "wait, I've been all this, I've done so much and loved so purely, how am I broken?". And he said "What is it about you that would stay with someone who treated you so horribly?". It had some weight because he was referring to his own sister.

Now, since I realized that my W is a narcissist, a lot of the pieces started to fall into place. I'm going to run down a list of things that are huge red flags for your situation, and would be deal breakers for many not on this forum:

1. You W does not value nor care for your emotions, needs, or anything else for that matter.

2. You cannot communicate with her and she is unwilling to make changes in her life that would benefit the relationship.

3. She is unwilling to seek counseling.

4. She seems to have a significant substance abuse problem.

5. She does not take care of her health or appearance.

6. She devalues you and controls your behavior.

All this to me equals an unsustainable future that can do nothing but slowly erode your humanity. You have given her every opportunity to change. To work with you. You have become a doormat and you know it. Someone that loves you will not make you a doormat. Did you let her? Yes. Have you worked to figure out why you allowed that? Yes. No one can tell you what to do, but I am telling you that you have gone far above and beyond to hold on to this M. I am saying that having read through your situation I would just walk. Start fresh, cut away the toxic relationship that you don't deserve, and move towards healing. Some M are not worth saving.

You have learned a ton about yourself, and continue to evolve. I highly recommend the book "No more Mr. Nice Guy". It's on kindle if that makes it easier to get. It's a fast read and really empowered me and gave insight into the inner workings of my fixer/codependent/enabling issues in my M. It even teaches you how to get your mojo back. You are a good dude. Drop the rope. I know you love her, I know that you have a ton of guilt for leaving her because you were so enmeshed. But listen when I say this, you cannot change her.

It's my personal opinion based on reading everything you have written. Take it with a grain of salt.

Cheers man, and good luck!

[Solo15]

Oh, and one more thing. I'm really beginning to capture and identify thoughts and feelings I have regarding my self esteem. When you are with someone that is that aggressively verbally abusive, judgement, critical and controlling it beats the tar out of your self esteem. I can hear it come out in your posts. There is a lot of pain in there between the lines. See the thing is, on a forum like this we can only describe stuff. We have to be really brief. There is little way to convey the depth of hurt and suffering that you have accumulated in your heart. Healing cannot happen until there is closure. For all the positive forward movement you have going on, you are in survival mode. Only after you have some form of closure can you heal from the abuse. Watch your thoughts and when you feel guilt or bad about yourself, ask yourself if that is coming from her and the way she's patterned your brain to respond. Also look up trauma bonding.

[Vanilla]

Has your W been diagnosed with narcissism. NPD is a clinical diagnosis so beware of the label. There are many other illness than can be confused including manic depression and organic diseases of various types.

The best you can say is that you are abused which is about your feelings.

Do Ms with abusers resolve, yes with work and clinical help. It depends on the type of abusive behaviour. I myself was a reactive abuser, giving as good as I got. I called that part of me screaming banshee. Other abusive types such as systemic abusers rarely resolve as they are unlikely and unwilling to seek help.

Whether you stand for your M is your choice, you can stand for a new M and a new you. The journey is yours to make. DB is an excellent tool to resolve your issues. It is my opinion that DB should be used for you and your development if you are being abused. Change you and you can resolve.

Zelda and I both acknowledge abuse and we put together the attached thread for those who are considering abuse is a factor in their sitch.

abuse thread with Zelda

If you want we can chat about it a little more. I am keen to know if W has a diagnosis.

V

[Grey]

Has your W been diagnosed with narcissism? NPD is a clinical diagnosis so beware of the label. There are many other illness than can be confused including manic depression and organic diseases of various types.

No, no official clinical diagnosis of NPD, although that only reinforces the characteristics of the disorder. I used to practice medicine and I keep in mind that with mental illness it's how we characterize the behavior versus the opposite with pathology. For example, if a patient has X disease they will predictably develop Y symptoms, it's simply the reverse for most mental health diagnosis; if you treat people this way, respond to confrontation that way, and are incapable of recognizing it in the first place to be in a position for that diagnosis, it's simply a way of describing those patterns of behavior. When they become so predictable over time to the point of pathology a diagnosis can be made, but again that will almost never happen with the most severe cases of NPD.

I apologize, I don’t mean to make excuses, and to answer your question, no, she hasn’t been clinically diagnosed with NPD (although she has been clinically diagnosed as not having manic depression or BPD, among other things). I only mean to suggest NPD because the characteristics so clearly pattern her behavior, and yes, I agree that I’ve been abused by it, far more than I’ll likely ever realize.

You W does not value nor care for your emotions, needs, or anything else for that matter. You cannot communicate with her and she is unwilling to make changes in her life that would benefit the relationship. She seems to have a significant substance abuse problem. She does not take care of her health or appearance. She devalues you and controls your behavior.

First, thank you so much for your response. It's insightful and very helpful, both of you, sincerely.

The harder I look (and it’s hard for me by nature), the harder it gets because the abuse is so unavoidable from an objective viewpoint. It’s there. It’s abuse. It’s awful.
The trauma bonding information I found was also very helpful and new to me, in particular this article which was like a polished mirror for me; http://thestir.cafemom.com/love_sex/162086/10_signs_youre_in_a

Even now, it’s hard. For example, she’s going to counseling (allegedly, and only one time), but even that feels like a form of control, a way to blame me and to say she tried and I left anyway, which is what she’s already said to me on the phone. It’s like she only wants to know she’s right and the behavior on her part is OK or even beneficial, whereas I am completely conditioned to try to get her to understand how unhealthy it is (another defining characteristic of trauma bonding).

I know myself so much better now, but that also means I know I’m predisposed to be taken advantage of by manipulative people, including my W. Being aware of that helps, but it only helps so much; for example, by my own nature, I was still finding myself thinking about giving in on the phone the other day, even wanting to do it. I have to force myself to be objective about it, and that only happens for me at this point with time alone and away.
And on the other side of that coin, I function naturally so much better around people who don’t behave that way and have true empathy and compassion, so purposely being around those people more frequently and away from manipulators deliberately has helped me and will have to be part of my future. Frankly that part is exciting.

Meanwhile, I’m still attached to my W. I have to go. I don’t want to. I have to. And I’m terrified she’s going to be ruthless (again, anxiety but I can’t leave) because the attempts to try to make it a 50-50 relationship have been detrimental.

I’ve got a hard week. Our wedding anniversary is Monday 10/5. This is the first year I haven’t had a huge trip planned for us. I think that alone might be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for her.

[Solo15]

It's funny how similar you and I are and I wonder if this might gain us some insight. I'm a professional artist too. I work in the entertainment industry. Also play guitar. Write music. I've done very well for myself. Now you say you practiced medicine in the past. The kind of work I do can be very technical as well as artistic. I work digitally drawing, painting, sculpting, and also manage projects and lots of people. I also write code and do a lot of math. I'm also self taught.

So you and I both are sort of center-brained. Intuitive and calculating, deeply introspective, clever, passionate, driven.

Based on that I think it's possible that you and I are prone to this kind of relationship. If you think about it, we are problem solvers. Right? Your medical background has made you a strong diagnostician. Science. Method. As a painter, you know that building your skills, honing your compositions, is all problem solving. You passion produces results because you are willing to not let go of the problem. Being an artist is also very taxing on the ego. We are far more self-critical than other people, and it actually is a positive influence on our craft. Just like it's tough to abandon a painting, to leave the problem unsolved, here you are having to walk away from your greatest work, leaving it unfinished. All I know about that is that if you and I are alike, you have to feel like in your head you are locked in a cage with a tiger. All the time. It's all you can think about. Right?

I'm don't really have a specific point in all this, but I find the similarities to our relationships with our W and our crazily similar makeups to be not insignificant. Honestly you sound like an amazing human being. Please start looking at a future where you are happy. You have all the ingredients. Dig deep and sort out this stuff. Good luck this week man.

[Grey]

It's funny how similar you and I are and I wonder if this might gain us some insight. I'm a professional artist too. I work in the entertainment industry. Also play guitar. Write music. I've done very well for myself.

I have an identical twin (literally) but you sound more like me than even he does.

And yes, that helps.

I kept thinking that if I am so predisposed to behave a certain way in response to certain people, then I should just fix that part about me.

But that part is so much of who I am that I can't turn it completely off; it's just not possible.

Instead, knowing that about me is the most important part. It helps me know what I'm capable of doing to handle those interactions, and it also helps make it more critical for me to deliberately surround myself with people who don't behave that way, and to do that as frequently as possible.

I gave up my art studio for her, right here, downtown, the same place I proposed to her. I was the happiest I had ever been and I wouldn't say I'm in the worst place at all, but I'm definitely looking ahead to the future and I'm aware of what I can do to make me a better person, not to mention what I think is sincerely my true path.

I'll know more after my coaching appointment here in less than an hour. I've really taken to coaching. It's been remarkably beneficial and I'll continue it long after this issue is over with.

[Vanilla]

Abuse is a hard journey, and if you look at your sitch and decide abuse is indicated then you can recover and decide no more. You will make better choices in your life and relationships.

It is also much easier to know that you are a target, the issue isn't yours. The real difficulty is the sweet cycle, breaking free. There is often no rational reason why we go back to an abusive sitch.

Yes, appearing to be considering MC or IC is a tactic that works on us, it holds out promise. The healthier you are the better your recovery. It can also depend on the spell breaker, for some of us the spell breaker moments are so traumatic that we deny no longer. For others we get strung along for a long time as suits the abuser.

The exact , if any, personality disorder exhibited by abusers is irrelevant to the target. Know that it is hard to be free of this and there may be struggles for a long time or it can come quickly. The more you work on you , the more progress you make, the healthier you will become. There are posters who recover quickly, consider Joe and others of us suffer damage which is external, for example Myself or GreenGrass. In my case its financial abuse which has caused long term damage.

Grey, you are correct becoming healthy yourself and having intrinsic value will assist you more than anything else.

V

[Grey]

Went to "her" counselor today (she had been twice).

It was awful. It felt very strange. I hadn't seen her in two weeks and I tried to be ready for the best but prepared for the worst.

He made so much more eye contact with her it became a distraction, in spite of her making sure I did all of the talking, and then her repeating the same things like I'm just too sensitive and "everything hurts" me, that this is just a communication issue, etc.

She brought up the time I "threw" my phone, over two years ago, and how terrified she was. Wow. I admitted to it, too. I tossed my phone on the couch, underhand, but I still took it as seriously as if I had thrown it like a fast ball. I immediately got help, went to anger management, got a new counselor, etc. Long story short, while it wasn't exactly an issue for me, I still learned things to do like meditation, getting better and more consistent sleep, not letting arguments escalate to yelling (ever, and I'm proud I can say that's been true for well over a year now)...but the point was that she focused on that, on what I did wrong, like always, so it's always my fault.

I'm getting out. I will never be able to let it go on my own and I will always have this hope that she will one day listen, understand she's been abusive, and consequently start to change her behavior. I don't have that hope anymore, and I am so hurt I no longer have the patience to wait another two years to see if that ever happens. I'll talk to my life coach on Tuesday about the next step but I feel so foolish for going today, like I should have known better. I'll never, ever stop trying. That's my character flaw, I suppose, as an empath and a committed husband in a trauma bond.

[Ggrass]

My narc some how bonded and manipulated the legal mediator.

He spent the whole time directing things to her and chatting and joking. That was the point I walked out of mediation and got a l. The mediator was given the job of helping me achieve and out come yet she allowed him to talk her into how broke he was...

I use the term narc not as diagnosis but to remind me, how he put himself always first how he believed assault was ok and how he excused every bad behaivours of his as mistake and mine as nasty character flaws.

Yes it's possible to change, but if you think your dealing with a narc, then nc nc nc nc nc nc and then nc some more. Will work.

After 2 years, I have lost the urge to check his fb, I do get those bad feelings come rushing back surrounding the abuse when I have seen him in the distance.

I have no real hope or desire to return to that toxic environment. Given he wanted me to write a will a court would never up hold I realise I might have escaped an "accident " if I had done so.