Divorced by 2016

[adinva]

It's time for a new thread for a new phase. I turned a corner in May and decided that the discomfort of continuing in this uncertain state is finally greater than the fear of facing the unknown future. Although my H had done nothing since he gave me his draft property settlement agreement in late 2012, i decided to carve out whatever time is needed to get this over with. We are shooting for one final joint tax filing and then finalizing divorce hopefully in early 2016. I feel good. I still dont know exactly why H left, but he's been emotionally completely gone for such a long time that I can confidently say I did everything I could and this marriage is over.

H is cooperating so far with the financial advisor who is helping us intelligently divide our assets. We both are motivated to avoid court.

When I arrived here in DB I was so sure I could save my marriage if I followed all the steps perfectly, but I was wrong. I did however save ME and I will never be a bitter victim no matter how the money turns out. I had many good times, and have two wonderful sons, and no regrets.

Since i'm back here journaling again I hope to reacquaint myself with the Surviving folks and appreciate this place more than I can say. It really got me through some bad times.

I'm pretty excited to feel free to date next year, and I've been following wii very carefully so I'll know how to make a good online dating profile.

[whatisis]

Ok, but feel free to use the bathroom mirror selfie...I think I was being a bit of a hardass lol! Hey, seeing the end of the tunnel can be liberating and I'm with you, DBing saved ME and maybe helped create the strange but desirable parenting relationship I have with my ex. She came to my baptism...how many divorced couples do that! But don't jump to fast into the online dating world 'cuz it is an emotional rollercoaster and you need to have your sh!t together when you do it...not sure I do yet lol.

[adinva]

So can I do my bathroom mirror selfie while wearing a bikini and cowboy hat and kissing my dog, with shades on?

Thanks for the warning... I'm hoping that when the paperwork is behind me i'll have my sh!t together for dating. Some of my DB friends are remarried already for Pete's sake, and they werent exactly rushing things. I've been In this process for going on 5 years! I'm ready to share my time with someone, but will try not to be impetuous.

[Rick1963]

Glad you are back here my friend. Post often and let us know if you need guidance during the D process. I wouldnt worry about dating. I too went the online way at 1st. That experience led me to delete all my accounts sit back and tell myself that it was ok to be single forever. Than I met my new wife at a BBQ. Wasnt looking was scared to commit again. 5 months ago we married. Life has wonderful things waiting for you. Just be patient.

[adinva]

So happy for how things have turned out for you R! You are living the good life!

[Rick1963]

And dont discount online dating when ready. My friend met his wonderful wife online. You will not have a problem finding someone when ready.

[whatisis]

One last tip for you profile, don't put "looking for my soul mate" 'cuz to a guy that means locating the TV remote under the cushions on the couch. No need to thank me.

[SunnyB]

Adinva, just dropping by to say Hi. I could have written just about all of your opening post on this thread. I came here thinking that if I just waited for STBX and the duck to self-destruct then we could get back to normal. I DB'd like a champ. And here I am a year and a half after BD, working on financial disclosures for our D. My how things change.

I'm looking forward to dating, also, but very hesitant about the online thing. I'll be reading here to see what happens!

[adinva]

Thanks for stopping by! Everything has been on hold while i had two business trips in two weeks. Travel is stressful cuz of leaving the kids in h's care, prepping the house and pantry, seeing my parents extra beforehand, and the cleanup after i return. H does a couple of things. He took a car in for work, bought s15 some jeans, walked the dogs. But he does no housework at all and the kids need to have food to fix for themselves. I always come home to a mess. Rant over.

Now i am recovered and ready to spend tomorrow on financial stuff. H emailed a bunch of questions to our planner and ran up a bill. Im trying to get him to work with me and take her our considered scenarios and anything we cant seem to agree on. He said we could discuss my punchlist but he hasnt made a move toward talking with me. I hope to get my momentum back so i can meet our end of year goal. I find the cinancial stuff scary and odious and so i'd rather clean my whole house than work on it.

[adinva]

Sunny asked how my first meeting with the mediator went and so I thought I'd post a little about it. It happened in my last thread, September 15. H and I seem to have little disagreement about the kids so most of our need to negotiate is financial. I met a divorce specialist financial planner at a divorce workshop and have seen her a few times trying to kick start my response to H's proposed settlement agreement dated Nov 2011 that I never responded to.

This year I asked H and he agreed that we could use her as a mediator for our financial stuff, then take that to attorneys and hopefully have minimal need of their time. An attorney I spoke with had worked with this person's clients before and said that the resulting documentation made things much easier.

So Sept 15 we met across a table with her. I knew the routine a bit from my past meetings, that every question costs time and money so I try to keep to important things. H got a little bogged down - there was a debt I questioned my need to pay, and there was my inheritance that got intermingled in our marital account, they were about the same amount so I had asked him let's just take them both off the table and save time. He just couldn't wrap his head around that so the advisor explained it twice and drew a picture. Stuff like that, that I would prefer to hash out offline. However, where we butt heads offline I have said - OK we don't agree on this let's take this one to the advisor.

The advisor has shown me that with a year and a half of child support and no spousal (his offer) I would spend down my assets and need to cash out my 401(k) and spend that too, and basically retire broke. Having given H 17 years of child and home care and sacrificed my career and given up my own business to do so, it is fair to ask H to set me on my feet when he goes. She makes a case that it won't hurt him much in the long run and it will make a world of difference for me, and it seems fair. I would NEVER have known to ask for anything and would not have conceived of the amount she is suggesting as a talking point. But she's right. I'd be in the hole and my kids would likely try to help support me in the long run. H has seen the number she suggested and hasn't yet stormed out of the discussion.

We're trying to figure out, using 2014-15 expenses, exactly what it costs me to live, and exactly what I'm spending on the kids, and will for the next 4 or 5 years or so, and whether H can afford to fill in the shortfall I would experience if I maintained my current (austerity-style) standard of living.

I feel a lot of stress and fear that I might overlook some expense and run out of money anyway, so I'm trying to be thorough for my own peace of mind.

It's very interesting to see how H's and my thought processes differ. For example, H and I co-own our house and plan to sell it when S15 graduates from high school. We should each pay half the mortgage then, right? H doesn't think so because he doesn't get to live here so he's currently paying about a fourth of the mortgage. That's his view. My view is that he is basically charging his CHILDREN rent to live in their home that he left.

Another thing we differ on. We had to start off with a spreadsheet of our spending budget. My bottom line is a couple hundred in the red; I've been slowly running out of the money I took with me from our joint account. I spent as little as possible. I buy meat only about once every couple weeks, I buy clothing from a thrift shop if any, the only vacation I went on was one H gave me as a gift. I work lunch breaks and weekends walking dogs to help keep at zero net. I'd prefer not to continue living this way but I'm prepared to live on even less if I need to. I plugged $25/month into my Savings line item just to put something there. He plugged $300/month plus $1000/month to his 401(k). So when he whines that he doesn't have much at the end to give to me it's because he's SAVING it. I think his view is that I make a lot less to I should be putting a lot less into savings and my 401(k).

We seem to disagree about the kids too. His plan was to pay minimum required child support until S15 turns 18 and then nothing more to me. I can't imagine that the day they graduate from high school I no longer buy them food or a pair of jeans, let alone college books. I'm sure I will be doing that. I may keep my second job in order to do it, but I can't see turning them out on their butts at 18. Maybe that's how it will be, but it's hard for me to see.

So the meeting itself was a little tense because it's the first time we've sat together and discussed things we disagree about. H avoids conflict and I don't love it either so it's very uncomfortable for us...but having an impartial 3rd party was immensely valuable I think. I trust her to help me not get bogged down on pennies if the dollars are going to be OK.

We went over time and didn't cover all we had intended.

The financial advisor followed up with 50-page reports analyzing our financial futures with various assumptions regarding child support and spousal support amounts, and selling the house now vs in 2018. Took me two whole days concentrating just to understand them. We have a bunch of corrections and adjustments for her to make, and I want to consolidate them with H and wipe out anything we agree on ahead of time, so we can come back to her for the next step more efficiently.

So that's where we are. I wrote out a to-do list this weekend to help me stop getting analysis paralysis and see where I'm headed. All I have left are:
4. List corrections and any different scenarios I want advisor to run.
5. Review these with H and consolidate/finalize
6. Send them to advisor and set up next meeting with her.
7. Agree on property division
8. Take to attorney to draft new separation agreement
9. H and I sign it
10. File for divorce.

Simple. NOT!!!

[Maybell]

Hi, A -- thank you so much for your kind words on my thread. I'll answer those points on my thread but I do appreciate your reaching back to me.

WRT your financial discussions and worries -- a couple of things.

If you sign up for an online financial management service like Mint you will be able to capture all your expenses and income sources in one place, even retroactively, and you won't have to worry that you've missed something. Alternatively, you can ask your financial mediator to suggest a coach or advisor who can help you put everything together. I would recommend the free online service, though, because it's the simplest, most time efficient, and there is no chance of missing anything. I've been using it intensively for the last four years and it has definitely helped me understand and manage my financial situation, even when I was sharing it with my inattentive Mr. Fantastic before BD.

Hats off to you for being able to negotiate with your H on anything divorce related. I declined to, to keep my sanity. I wish you a smooth and favorable process. Don't worry too much about how he'll manage his own finances. That's on him, especially given that he left the marriage. Make sure you get yourself and your kids well-supported so your life eases up.

Thanks for the hugs. Back atcha!!!

[SunnyB]

Wow, Adinva, I'm more than a little horrified at your financial situation. It doesn't seem to me like your H is stepping up the way he should be. You sacrificed your earnings for your family - I did, too - and now it's time for him to recognize that. Don't be afraid to ask for what you need.

I also agree with you about the kids aging out. In my state, child support ends at 18, which for two of my kids means October before they graduate in May. It's not right that I should have to support them alone the rest of the time. I know I wont' have to in my case, but, geez, your H needs to man up for his kids here. I hope that works out for you.

I have used Mint (the one MB suggested) for years and years. I check it every day and classify transactions for my budget categories. When the forensic accountant asks me what I've spent my money on for the past year, I have it already.

[kml]

In my state, child support ends at 18, which for two of my kids means October before they graduate in May.

SunnyB - are you sure about this? It's my understanding that most states continue the child support to the end of the school year for kids who turn 18 during their senior year of high school.

[SunnyB]

SunnyB - are you sure about this? It's my understanding that most states continue the child support to the end of the school year for kids who turn 18 during their senior year of high school.

Yep, the cutoff is 18, not high school graduation. In my case it's not going to matter, they will be supported and stay in their same schools and have college taken care of, STBX and I both agree here.

[Underdog]

AD - Our state age for cutting of CS is 19. I am fairly sure VA is the same.

[BeginningAgain]

In 2012, my VA lawyer advised me it was 18 or until they graduated from high school, whichever occurred later. My D17 turns 18 in May but doesn't graduate until June so the c/s that I get from my ex won't end until June.

BA

[adinva]

Yes BA, thats what i've been told too. It's not a major difference, 4 additional months for s17 and 2 additional months for s15. Theyre obviously not going to move out of my house and become financially responsible for their own rent, food, doctors appts and tuition ... I really cant imagine not helping them out.

For the sake of discussion my financial planner is considering that my living expenses as far as the kids are concerned wont decrease until 2022. H isnt opposed to the idea but disputes the amount. He thinks i'll be spending less on them than currently. i will probably save about 200/mo not having 4 seasons of lacrosse.

The discussions of kid expenses past age 18 play into what my living expenses are and therefore what support (spousal/alimony) i would need to get on my feet.

I've created a shared google doc to track all of our questions and changes to give the financial planner so i can work with h first as much as possible via email. It's slow going. So far we decided on what to do with my 15k inheritance and the $25k we owe his mom and a VAL life policy he had intended to cash out to use for helping with kids' college tuition. He has 4 more items to respond to and then i'll email him the second batch. Every discussion we have outside the planner's office saves us money. I feel like he's being really slow, but then again i was completely frozen for 3 years. I just really want to get this over with. If i end up getting any spousal support at all it'll be more than i had expected and would raise my estimation of him significantly. I thought it was dishonorable that he left, and not leaving me impoverished would mitigate that. It all remains to be seen.

I started with the easy questions, saved the more inflammatory or complicated ones for later. Weird that i'm driving the process now, but i really really want to put this divorce behind me.

[adinva]

I thought I'd mention, for the record, something that contributed greatly to my fear and paralysis that turned out not so hard when I found the solution.

H asked for a divorce in June 2011.
May 2011 was the separation date he put in the draft separation agreement he gave me.
December 2012 was when he actually moved out.

Every year that went by after that I became more confused about whether it made a difference if the date was earlier (more support due) or later (more accurate)...or before the end of a year or after January 1...or before or after our 20th anniversary (November 2013).

And how would I possibly calculate what he owed me for back-support while he'd been underpaying and I was losing money?

Every time I thought about it I became more irrationally confused and worried but here's how it's ending up:

The date on which we divide all our assets is going to be the settlement date.
- That means I'm actually not down and he doesn't actually owe me, because we're splitting everything in half now. It's as if we've been paying everything out of joint funds all this time.
- Now that we're negotiating I haven't heard him (yet) say anything about his choice to leave me just a bit shy of our 20th anniversary (which it is said would impact spousal support)
- We decided on a settlement date just past January 1 so we can file taxes jointly one more year (tax savings).

This released me from the idea of having to go back over several years and figure out how to be sure I wasn't cheated.

***

Another thing that had me spinning was whether to sell the house while still married or after the divorce as suggested, in 2018. I wasn't sure if the capital gains tax would make a difference of $0, or $2,000, or $20,000, and couldn't sit down and try to figure it out, it just made me feel sick.

When I finally brought the question to a lawyer and also to the financial advisor, and they ran quick numbers, even though I'd say my house has appreciated quite a bit, almost doubled, once you deduct the improvements we made to it, and then divide the equity in half, what's left doesn't exceed $250K so there'd be zero tax. And if it did exceed it by say $1000, I'd only be taxed on that $1000. It's immaterial.

So again, my extreme fear of getting screwed somehow...is now gone. It'll be OK either way, there aren't any alligators hiding in the details.

I hope this may be helpful to someone else who's paralyzed over these questions.

[adinva]

I got asked out for coffee today, like as a date. First time someone's asked me for a date since 1990! I said no thanks but it was very nice to feel desirable. Although this one wasnt right for me, the idea of saying yes to a date isn't completely inconceivable anymore.

[Maybell]

Oh, cool! Hope this was just the tip of the iceberg for you!!

[adinva]

Thx MB! More of a glacier than an iceberg

[SunnyB]

I'm actually looking forward to dating. Call me crazy, and it's entirely possible I don't know what I'm getting myself into, but I just think it will be novel to be in the company of someone who's actually interested in me. It's been a while.

[kml]

I just think it will be novel to be in the company of someone who's actually interested in me. It's been a while.

THIS!!!
Yes, it's kind of FANTASTIC to be in the company of men who think you're the cat's meow instead of the cause of all their unhappiness.

[adinva]

I agree, i'm looking forward to that too. I'm worth better than i knew way back then, and i have a new chance.

[adinva]

Well, H is 50 today. My S15 observed that "it's the perfect age for a midlife crisis." LOL. I don't know where he picked up that term but it didn't come from me; I've never said a peep.

I did a 180 for me. I've always been really uncomfortable with gifts; it's not my love language, and I'm usually uncomfortable spending a lot of money - I generally try to put a lot of thought into something very inexpensive and then worry that it might seem cheap to the recipient. But with a big family to shop for especially at Christmas, my gifts are small. Long story short, I thought 50 deserved some recognition so I spent a day researching motorcycle gear and picked out some top rated gloves for -yikes- $250. By the time I learned how important it is not to scrimp on motorcycle safety gear, with gory descriptions, I decided to take the leap and get something good that he'll like.

Bonus is that I got the idea from S15 who said dad's been mentioning wanting some with a certain feature.

I texted him a photo of them with a happy birthday message and he said thanks. He'll get them when he's back from out of town. I also told both kids "it would be nice of you to text dad happy birthday" and will leave it to them if they want to do that. I told them the gloves were from all of us.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with my marriage or divorce, just gave me a good feeling to try to be really thoughtful.

[adinva]

I think I just adopted a guinea pig. My S17 and three of his friends came home yesterday all excited with a giant cage, food, treats, etc, and a baby guinea pig who was going to live in my basement where they all hang out. S17 slept next to it last night and had hives today so he asked if we could return it to the pet store. I moved it for now into my home office, which I share with s15, where hopefully it's far enough removed from the teenager hangout, and if everyone stays healthy I'll keep him. He's awfully cute. We haven't had a little fuzzy animal like that since S15's hamster that our au pair gave him years ago, and I'd been occasionally missing him.

Jury's still out, but he is awfully cute. I made him a little toy.

[SunnyB]

Jury's still out, but he is awfully cute. I made him a little toy.

The jury isn't out, the verdict is in. You have a guinea pig in the family now.

We took in two kittens just before STBX moved out a year ago. They are adorable, love them dearly.

[2thepoint]

Hello AD! I've been wondering how you are doing and have just read a few of your recent posts. You seem much more confident and not in the brave way that I used to perceive you. And you have a new addition to your family! Congratulations!

I hope you are still doing well and enjoying the holidays with your family! 2016 is going to be a good year for you!

[adinva]

Hi Two! I'm doing great. Just returned from a work trip to florida where i ran into a fellow db'er which reminded me how much this group has done for my life and happiness. I'm not around much anymore bc thanks to the wonderful ppl here i'm doing much better, great even. Anyway, L, if you find me here hello! I will look forward to seeing you next time i'm in FL!

So Two, you saw on the alt i had a death in the family this Christmas. I've spoken of my neice's (and her mom my sister's) many challenges, and though we all hoped some miracle would bring a change in her life, she passed away at age 32. In real life the family has been circumspect but ultimately it was a heroin overdose. If i could be more public about it i'd be on a rampage because that stuff is killing so many young people, and their families must suffer guilt, shame, fear of judgment, on top of their grief and sorrow. My kids know. I hope someone lives bc of this tragedy. I spend a lot of time on the phone with my sister these days.

I returned the guinea piglet . My s17 couldnt be in the house with it and my dogs were getting increasingly persistent in hunting it. He was so cute though.

Two hopefully you are doing well too. What's your status? I'll go look for your news. I hope all my DBuddies are having a good 2016.

[Ginger1]

Did the fellow DBer have a name that starts with a "B"? I had the pleasure of meeting her also when I was in Disney with my D8. She is great, we had a blast, and my D8 loved spending time with her new friend!

Sorry for the loss of your niece. I was reading today on what an epidemic heroin is in my state, and it is just regular people who are taking pain meds for an injury who get addicted and seek a bigger, cheaper high. Very very sad.

Glad to hear all is well otherwise!

[Underdog]

AD,

I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your family member. I lost my brother last fall to medical problems from his heroin addiction. It's awful and sad, and know that you have someone in your camp. It affects so many people. My brother's visitation was littered with friends (users, former users and non users) and family who were equally as unhappy as his immediate family.

I guess his long term use gave us a long time to move through much of those fears - especially of judgment. It was a path that was sadly predictable without change, yet still sad because he left behind a then 6 year old and then 16 year old. It totally svcks. The grief is ever present, and pops up at some odd and inconvenient times. Like at a baseball game with his youngest. Anyway, the gift you can give society is to talk about it and not let fear of shame or judgment get in the way. You'd be surprised at how many people out there have a family member in the same position. It's supportive when you get used to calling the spade a spade.

However... I will not watch that show Intervention. And I find myself unable to appreciate shows featuring drug dealers or addicts. I couldn't get past season 2 of Breaking Bad... knowing my brother was one of those people who did horrible things to get his next fix was always present, and I found that it made watching not at all enjoyable. I hope my friends and family understand why I just couldn't muster my way through a series that featured characters who society cheered on?!?! I thought the acting was fantastic, but maybe too fantastic. It was hard enough loving my brother while actively disliking who he became and what he did to feed his habit.

Anyway, I just want you to know that you have a friend here. I'm sorry for your sister's loss the most. It has to be the worst thing to bury a child, no matter the reason. Ending on a positive note, I will say that his death brought my family together in a uniquely tight way. His problems ceased to exist and we all just found out that we cared about each other more knowing he had hurt all of us tremendously. And the weirder part? We all made a pact to forgive him and move forward. It's been a little weird, but healing.

Hugs,
Betsey

[ATPeace]

Well I thought I would post here

My W has been to see a solicitor and she will soon be filing for divorce under unreasonable behaviour

He solicitor will choose grounds that I agree on I will get to see the draft petition

She is asking for a 50/50 split in the sale of the house and for me to pay maintance for the two young children or she wants a greater chunk of the sale of the house and no maintance

So it looks like divorce is where I am heading I would have liked to have stopped this but this is not something that my W ever wanted to do

So now is it all about agreeing and moving forward with what she wants

I feel lost and empty

I would be greatful for any advice going forward

Ghost

[Vanilla]

Ghost

Welcome to Surviving.

What happened about your move? Is the house up for sale?

Just because your WW wants something doesn't mean it's right. You are and have rights and access to your children.

V

[Dawgs]

So now is it all about agreeing and moving forward with what she wants

No, no it isn't. Are you willing to give up your rights? If so, then what for? Do you think that by agreeing with her it will somehow gain favor? I'm afraid that's not going to happen.

Now, this is a business transaction and needs to be treated as such. If you don't have a good lawyer then get one ASAP. If you choose not to, then don't cry about what she is doing. Protect yourself and your family.

[adinva]

Time flies, doesn't it?! Big news, requiring a new thread title, Divorce is Finally Behind Me. Will post more info there.

[adinva]

Here's my last thread from January 2016, where I thought I'd be divorced in 2016: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...093#Post2610093

It took longer than expected, as everything has in my sitch, but...
ta-da! My divorce was final March 7, and I feel good about it.

2016 was a horrific year in so many ways, and one of the hardest I've personally been through. A/D and therapy and lots of exercise still didn't always stave off depression and I found it hard to get out of bed many times. Somehow it all got done anyway, with lots of breaks in the action.

I had started negotiating with H on the financial stuff, the only part of separating that we didn't see eye to eye on, working with a financial advisor. That broke down - he went to two meetings and stopped going, saying he didn't need financial advice and he thought the suggestion of spousal support was outrageous, and he felt like the advisor's purpose was just to pressure him into as much support as I could get out of him. She was really intended to be working for both of us to show us projections and ensure that we would both be OK in the long run, instead of just him being OK. We continued to not see eye to eye, and so I decided once we had everything except support agreed on, it was time to work the last issue out with lawyers.

I switched to a third lawyer on the advice of my financial advisor. The first two had told me to expect no support because the county formulas calculated $0 for me. The third L (who I met with just around my 50th birthday in August) looked at my financials and agreed with me and the financial planner that I should definitely ask, and show that I meant business, but no guarantees if it did end up in court - would depend a lot on the judge. So with her help I filed for D, drafted a new proposed settlement agreement, and at the same time got a court date set for Feb 2017.

The amount of money I spent overall on the lawyer and financial planner was shocking, but I needed to spend it, it helped me get out of this on a good footing, and empowered me, and could have been a lot more, honestly. Our main goal was to show that we were more than willing to go to court if needed, and at that point we'd have been in for tens of thousands more (each). And we very nearly ended up there. It went right down to the wire. We even did all the discovery, and hadn't agreed by the time of the preliminary hearing even.

It was a tough negotiation; however, we arrived at a number that I feel comfortable with - if I save most or all of the support I will be able to catch up on a moderate retirement nest egg. The biggest problem was trying to get H to agree that he should care at all about my retirement. He and the court only looked at support as (a) what do you need to live on monthly right now? (b) why do you need that much? and (c) how much less is that than what you earn monthly right now? If I lived right now on a break-even basis, and support ended in 2 years, I would be bankrupt in my early 70s. H still never saw that as his problem, and never saw it as a result of the career disadvantages I took to raise the kids, but he was finally willing to see another way to justify it - as back support for not having paid enough to keep me afloat over 4.5 years of separation while I paid all of the kids' expenses. Whatever it took to justify it to himself was fine with me.

Ultimately, I know I took a hit over the past 4.5 years but I'll be ok if I'm careful going forward...and he feels like he got screwed in one area but got away with something in another...so I think it is a fair outcome that we could live with.

It was very hard for me to take all those steps, when it was HIM that wanted the D in the first place. He was clearly never going to move, and I had realized by August that I was losing money and couldn't afford to keep living in our house. Something had to be done, and so I did it. I felt a lot of the time like I didn't deserve what I was asking for (he's very persuasive and strong in his opinions), that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't smart enough to understand all the finances, that I was not going to be ok, and on and on...and had to really fight through all of that negative emotion.

Meanwhile I had to sell our house that I had loved, had to get everything fixed up, had to argue with H to get him to pay half of the repairs, I and the kids (mostly I) moved every scrap of furniture, stuff, junk, garbage, hardware, spare lumber, drywall leftovers, down to the last wingnut in the workroom. H did absolutely nothing to help with cleaning out our 16 years of stuff. He later claimed that he had given me all of that stuff by abandoning it for me to deal with, and tried to consider it financial payment to me. Argh. I was mad every step up the basement stairs carrying heavy loads, mad mad mad mad up the stairs for three months July August September.

My therapist, who I felt very close to and who helped me feel OK, retired in July, and I didn't find a replacement until much later. I really should have tried harder on that.

Meanwhile I got S off to college for his freshman year in August and worried about how we were paying for it. (We did ok! We're figuring it out as we go.) And missed him.

I sold the house in one weekend - yay! But couldn't find one to buy until the 11th hour. I ended up re-looking at a neighborhood I had ruled out, and it was a godsend. It was hard to downsize and I'm still struggling around excess furniture that needs to get sold or donated, and learning all the parts of homeownership that had been H's area of expertise before. But -
I love my new home. Love it. Love the neighborhood. It makes me happy every time I drive up to it.

The dogs did not do so well in the move. They've had a lot of behavioral issues that boil down to rapid cognitive decline, like dementia/Alzheimer's, for my older dog. There are dog fights, house soiling and destruction, confusion, anxiety, and best of all, no sleeping at night. With the relatively recent understanding of what's going on, we have medications to try.

I also, on top of everything, tore a tendon early in 2016, had surgery and was on a walker for 6 weeks and rehab for a few months, and am still kind of getting used to reduced functionality. That was depressing for me too even though I tried to have a good outlook. Oh and paying the bills for that was super fun.

In all of that I slipped a couple of times at work, where there would be days I know I was sitting at my desk all day but couldn't say what on earth I had done all that time. The first time was while I was trying to negotiate with H, get S to college, and sell the house. The second was right after moving in to the new house and dealing with the dogs and traveling for work and settling S16 in. I really missed having a helpful life partner.

All in all, I'm so glad it's all behind me and I am working hard to take lessons from it so I can handle what life is sure to continue to throw at me, while taking care of myself and not dropping the ball at work.

This has been rambly but I wanted to capture it here to close the book on my D journey. I got so much help from the DR book, the DB community, and the special group of DB'ers that I got more close to and even got to meet...it all really saved me in many ways. After 5 years or so, I am OK and going to be even better than OK, getting along with H, H getting along with the kids, and even understanding that getting a D wasn't the end of the world or even necessarily a bad thing. It was out of my control but I tried to make the best of what was in my control and become a better person from it. Hopefully I did, am doing, that.

[RAI]

Adinva,
I am at a similar stage to you, and I get that there are no winners in D, and everyone feels like they are getting $crewed. I think that is one of the harder things to reconcile, because if you are like me (and admittedly I don't know the exact details of your sitch), then you never asked for any of this and you have to cede control completely. I am waiting to hear back from the judge what the final settlement will be, but it does not look good. I suppose with this - and everything in life, indeed - we need to let go and let G-d. Nothing is truly in our control anyway. Regardless of what is thrown our way, we need to press forward.
I am glad that you feel good about it and that you have attained a measure of closure. I am still waiting. :\

Best,

RAI

[RAI]

Hey Ghost,

I have followed with you from Newcomers. you're still standing.

Best,

RAI

[job]

I have merged your two threads together since they are both under the 100 posting limit.

[adinva]

OK job thanks!

Hi RAI - I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and hope the judge is fair to you.

I had started to feel like KNOWING what I would have, even if it was less than what I thought I needed, was something I could work with, and WONDERING what I would have was unbearably stressful. That was what finally got me out of the 2012-2017 limbo.

[adinva]

So... I may actually be going on a date this weekend! Plans are in the works. Feeling happy and trying to be chill, not really succeeding in being chill though. Nope, pretty excited!

[25yearsmlc]

Sunny asked how my first meeting with the mediator went and so I thought I'd post a little about it. It happened in my last thread, September 15. H and I seem to have little disagreement about the kids so most of our need to negotiate is financial. I met a divorce specialist financial planner at a divorce workshop and have seen her a few times trying to kick start my response to H's proposed settlement agreement dated Nov 2011 that I never responded to.

This year I asked H and he agreed that we could use her as a mediator for our financial stuff, then take that to attorneys and hopefully have minimal need of their time. An attorney I spoke with had worked with this person's clients before and said that the resulting documentation made things much easier.

So Sept 15 we met across a table with her. I knew the routine a bit from my past meetings, that every question costs time and money so I try to keep to important things. H got a little bogged down - there was a debt I questioned my need to pay, and there was my inheritance that got intermingled in our marital account, they were about the same amount so I had asked him let's just take them both off the table and save time. He just couldn't wrap his head around that so the advisor explained it twice and drew a picture. Stuff like that, that I would prefer to hash out offline. However, where we butt heads offline I have said - OK we don't agree on this let's take this one to the advisor.

The advisor has shown me that with a year and a half of child support and no spousal (his offer) I would spend down my assets and need to cash out my 401(k) and spend that too, and basically retire broke. Having given H 17 years of child and home care and sacrificed my career and given up my own business to do so, it is fair to ask H to set me on my feet when he goes. She makes a case that it won't hurt him much in the long run and it will make a world of difference for me, and it seems fair. I would NEVER have known to ask for anything and would not have conceived of the amount she is suggesting as a talking point. But she's right. I'd be in the hole and my kids would likely try to help support me in the long run. H has seen the number she suggested and hasn't yet stormed out of the discussion.

We're trying to figure out, using 2014-15 expenses, exactly what it costs me to live, and exactly what I'm spending on the kids, and will for the next 4 or 5 years or so, and whether H can afford to fill in the shortfall I would experience if I maintained my current (austerity-style) standard of living.

I feel a lot of stress and fear that I might overlook some expense and run out of money anyway, so I'm trying to be thorough for my own peace of mind.

It's very interesting to see how H's and my thought processes differ. For example, H and I co-own our house and plan to sell it when S15 graduates from high school. We should each pay half the mortgage then, right? H doesn't think so because he doesn't get to live here so he's currently paying about a fourth of the mortgage. That's his view. My view is that he is basically charging his CHILDREN rent to live in their home that he left.

Another thing we differ on. We had to start off with a spreadsheet of our spending budget. My bottom line is a couple hundred in the red; I've been slowly running out of the money I took with me from our joint account. I spent as little as possible. I buy meat only about once every couple weeks, I buy clothing from a thrift shop if any, the only vacation I went on was one H gave me as a gift. I work lunch breaks and weekends walking dogs to help keep at zero net. I'd prefer not to continue living this way but I'm prepared to live on even less if I need to. I plugged $25/month into my Savings line item just to put something there. He plugged $300/month plus $1000/month to his 401(k). So when he whines that he doesn't have much at the end to give to me it's because he's SAVING it. I think his view is that I make a lot less to I should be putting a lot less into savings and my 401(k).

We seem to disagree about the kids too. His plan was to pay minimum required child support until S15 turns 18 and then nothing more to me. I can't imagine that the day they graduate from high school I no longer buy them food or a pair of jeans, let alone college books. I'm sure I will be doing that. I may keep my second job in order to do it, but I can't see turning them out on their butts at 18. Maybe that's how it will be, but it's hard for me to see.

So the meeting itself was a little tense because it's the first time we've sat together and discussed things we disagree about. H avoids conflict and I don't love it either so it's very uncomfortable for us...but having an impartial 3rd party was immensely valuable I think. I trust her to help me not get bogged down on pennies if the dollars are going to be OK.

We went over time and didn't cover all we had intended.

The financial advisor followed up with 50-page reports analyzing our financial futures with various assumptions regarding child support and spousal support amounts, and selling the house now vs in 2018. Took me two whole days concentrating just to understand them. We have a bunch of corrections and adjustments for her to make, and I want to consolidate them with H and wipe out anything we agree on ahead of time, so we can come back to her for the next step more efficiently.

So that's where we are. I wrote out a to-do list this weekend to help me stop getting analysis paralysis and see where I'm headed. All I have left are:
4. List corrections and any different scenarios I want advisor to run.
5. Review these with H and consolidate/finalize
6. Send them to advisor and set up next meeting with her.
7. Agree on property division
8. Take to attorney to draft new separation agreement
9. H and I sign it
10. File for divorce.

Simple. NOT!!!

Adinva,

I'm catching up on your thread. First reaction is

but since I've also read the last post, I know it's okay.

I'm embroiled in GDC (Gross Div Crap) and just plodding thru it, is horrific and that's without h in the room.

I have more to read up on now, so that's all I can say for now!

Except I'm now close to DC so maybe we can do lunch sometime

[25yearsmlc]

OK job thanks!

Hi RAI - I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and hope the judge is fair to you.

I had started to feel like KNOWING what I would have, even if it was less than what I thought I needed, was something I could work with, and WONDERING what I would have was unbearably stressful. That was what finally got me out of the 2012-2017 limbo.

THIS^^^^^

it's the limbo. My h has quit his new "GREATEST JOB EVER!" to avoid paying me support. Sees no contribution from me to his career

(h was a veterinary student when we married, then a veterinarian, then we had a child, then he was a med student, then we had a 2nd child, then he was an intern, resident, staff and then we had a 3rd child and then h did a fellowship. And I went thru law school and worked till we had child #3.
We moved 9-12 times, (*depending on how you count a move---

To see, in writing, that "25 did nothing to further my career"...really hurts at a gut level.

Sure, we can say it's insane and distorted, and believe it, but it still stings. So does hearing that he's
"in a r" on fb, while we are still married. He NOW posts on fb often, with photos of them kissing in Mexico..."SO HAPPY NOW"

as if I was his big obstacle...


But for me, it's the financial limbo that seems to hinder forward movement b/c I don't really KNOW what I can count on.

Hmm, like my marriage...

I do look forward to the limbo ending soon. At least my h's behavior has helped me move faster thru the grief b/c he's being such an a$$ that I think it'll be easier not to miss him.

The h i once knew, loved and married, is for all intents and purposes, dead to me. Not coming back. Now, that knowledge certainty actually helps my forward progress more than hurts.

Do I hope he'll someday really regret things?? Of course. I have an ego.

But I also know what matters most in my life is MY PATH...and h is not on it.

please keep posting Adinva!

[25yearsmlc]

PS

to be clear, I unfriended h as soon as we parted ways. Never looked. Those FB posts were told to me and to not look. So i was warned.

but if h knew how our mutual friends and family (none of whom commented on his posts) saw his behavior,

I wonder if he'd realize how cliched he looks, how unkind and how over compensating.

anyhow, as I said, in a way it helped me detach b/c it would have been gut wrenching to take that IN...so

back to earth

[adinva]

OMG 25. So good to hear from you but I am picking myself up off the floor about the change in your sitch. What an unbelievable and stupid a$$ your h is. Wow. I hope you get thru the horrible divorce crud quickly and move on to much better things as you deserve them. Please do find me for lunch. I'm never in fb but will go see if I can get you my contact info. Hugs to you 25. I will read up on your threads.

[adinva]

My head is all over the place. My friend has a sitter for Saturday so its a real date. It has dredged up a lot of unresolved stuff, answering questions and choosing what to divulge, what not to. Catching myself still seeking pity when this is my chance to own my story focus on all the good in my life and hold my head up. I still find there's anger about some things. I will swim some of it off at the gym.

[Ginger1]

Good luck! it will be fine. Check the anger at the door. Check a lot of your sitch at the door too. Be you, not the person defined by your divorce, but be the person who shares what they enjoy, loves about life, interests.....

let everything flow naturally

[adinva]

Thanks Ginger1 that is good advice. I like how you put it.

[25yearsmlc]

Good luck tonight!

Um, yeah you need to keep us posted (obviously)

[adinva]

Well I got over the hurdle of going on a date but I'm all over the place emotionally. Lots of chatting before probably wasn't the best idea (phone and text, mildly flirtatious). I was really enjoying it, but it created some expectation I think. I was unrealistically positive beforehand, so felt excessively letdown afterward bc I didn't feel an attraction I was hoping to feel. May be hard to extricate or be honest about what I'm feeling. (What I'm feeling changes back and forth too.)Maybe I need to let the pendulum swinging stop to see how I really feel and where to go from here. I just think right now that I'd be really happy to be friends, and that he is hoping for a lot more than that. I could be misinterpreting, but I don't think I am.

Notwithstanding, I had a very nice time. He was amazingly attentive and interested, and I enjoyed that a lot.

Now I feel more apprehensive than excited though when I get texts from him. And I'm trying not to reciprocate quite as much.

[DonH]

Adinva, I don't think I've posted to you before but do seem to find a lot of women like you in the dating world - or at least I did when I was more active. I remember meeting women online that would tell me how they were planning a first date with someone in a few days to weeks and didn't want to talk to anyone else. I'd be like ??????? It was almost as though they were so desperate for someone or at least all in that even before a first date they were willing to cast off any others. It almost seems like that's where you were. Very excited, wanting a lot right away so you did a bunch of texting, talking, communicating with someone you've not even gone on a date with yet. You created who you hoped he would be in your mind. Then when he was not that... Did he even have a chance? Who could live up to what someone creates in their mind?

Dating takes time. Taking it one step at a time, slowly is often your best bet. He doesn't seem to be doing that either? You don't owe him anything you know? If you are feeling apprehensive tell him that. Sure you can be quiet or not reciprocate or ghost him but would it not be better to just say, "Look, all of this is very new to me. You seem to be wanting much more than I am and I just wanted to be straightforward with you. I'd enjoy going out and seeing where it goes, but right now, I'm just looking to meet people and slowly get back out there." If he knew that, would that reduce your apprehension? If so, that's what you need to do. Then, take some deep breaths and a few steps back. You don't owe this guy or any guy anything. Take the time to get to know them. Plus, one thing I've really found to be true is I can't tell very well at all how I'll fit with someone until we meet in person. I can often tell in person after only a few minutes. Not at all the case on the phone or text or email. There is nothing at all wrong with a quick meet and greet. Have coffee or a drink. Limit it to no more than an hour. If the chemistry is there, you'll both be looking forward to going on a real date. Had you done that here, had you even gone on the real date?

Just some thoughts and suggestions that I hope might help.

[adinva]

Thanks Don! You have good insight. I used to hang out with this friend years ago and was aware that he paid me a lot of attention although I was dating my H and/or newlywed. So nothing was going to happen back then. I think the assumption that we know each other well led at least me to think I could skip over the coffee date part. I would have liked to see him casually right away but instead we spoke on the phone and texted for many hours before scheduling a whole evening date. You're right on target about what happened.

I'm also inclined to neither ghost him nor continue hours long convos until I have a better handle on how to communicate where I'm at in a nonhurtful way. So I'm responding, just trying to keep it more casual than the first couple days.

All this has only been a week, and only 2 days since meeting in person, so i'm just trying to get my head straight. It was just too much (imagining) too soon. We still have plans to get together next weekend and I should probably have that conversation then or before then.

He was a very dear friend long ago so I want to be careful and fair to him.

[adinva]

I was momentarily offended by this:

I do seem to find a lot of women like you in the dating world

but wanted to absorb the rest of your message because I'm here trying to learn how not to be like whatever "a lot of women" might be doing wrong. And what better place than this to ask such vulnerable questions?!

Somehow 25 years ago I was a girl who would choose to be with and marry a guy who wasn't that into her, and push nicer guys away, because I was that uncomfortable with real feelings. My H's decision to leave me after 18 years of marriage prompted me to explore for the first time why I was like that, and how to do better for myself in life. Sometimes now that 6 years have passed, I catch myself regressing and get frustrated that I haven't really changed at all. At least when I slip up, I realize at some point that I did, and I try to rectify it - so at least that much is improved.

Avoiding hard conversations and complicated feelings is exactly why I let this guy halfway in 25 years ago, and it's easy to fall back in that pattern but I don't want to do that.

BUT - as you point out Don, this is just a first date, not even a relationship, and it doesn't need to be all or nothing. I don't need to push him away just because I don't want to pick out china patterns with him. I wish I could just have fun and not make everything so serious.

Getting to know men outside the safety net of being married is very alien and complicated to me. I appreciate the candid feedback.

[25yearsmlc]

My head is all over the place. My friend has a sitter for Saturday so its a real date. It has dredged up a lot of unresolved stuff, answering questions and choosing what to divulge, what not to. Catching myself still seeking pity when this is my chance to own my story focus on all the good in my life and hold my head up. I still find there's anger about some things. I will swim some of it off at the gym.

This^^^ is going to be my goal, and maybe one of my mantras. I do not want to be a victim, though I admit I feel like one.

I am the author of how the rest of my life goes, so it's my story.

I think there must be a way to avoid all the "why'd you divorce?" questions, without hiding stuff. (Though in time you'd obviously both need to figure out what the other person learned, and what their triggers and values are).

Maybe you wait til later in the new relationship and then gently ask. I would also look hard at their relationships with their kids. If the kids are old enough to "get it"< and they are not close to their dad (or mom if you are a LBH), that would strike a chord of oddness to me.

but this^^ can wait a bit.

How are WE to answer? Frankly, if the guy asked ME why H and I are now divorcing, my one word answer would be "dishonesty".

Which seems over simplified, and very biased,( and is.)

But like you, Adinva, I'm not sure what the heck h was thinking or planning or for how long. H put me in an impossible position. I think your h did that with you, as well.

But yes, hold your head up!

[25yearsmlc]

I was momentarily offended by this:

I do seem to find a lot of women like you in the dating world

but wanted to absorb the rest of your message because I'm here trying to learn how not to be like whatever "a lot of women" might be doing wrong. And what better place than this to ask such vulnerable questions?!

So True.

Somehow 25 years ago I was a girl who would choose to be with and marry a guy who wasn't that into her, and push nicer guys away, because I was that uncomfortable with real feelings. My H's decision to leave me after 18 years of marriage prompted me to explore for the first time why I was like that, and how to do better for myself in life.


any answers to this? Not that you have to share them, but have you figured any of that out?

BTW, I'm going back to that workshop in Philadelphia in July. I think I told you about it, but it's called "Essential Experience" and you may want to check it out.

For me, it was like 2 years of therapy in one long weekend. (There's follow up support groups too, some online, so you can keep your work going without having to return there). Very profound, plus you get an action plan to DO so you make the changes you want and need. B/c it's "experiential" and not a lecture format , it's hard to rehearse or edit your responses. That was key for me.



--
Avoiding hard conversations and complicated feelings is exactly why I let this guy halfway in 25 years ago, and it's easy to fall back in that pattern but I don't want to do that.

"this guy" , meaning the guy you just had the date with, or your h?


BUT - as you point out Don, this is just a first date, not even a relationship, and it doesn't need to be all or nothing. I don't need to push him away just because I don't want to pick out china patterns with him. I wish I could just have fun and not make everything so serious.

So can you say Why you cannot do ^^this (at least for now),

OR are you saying it's your goal?

Getting to know men outside the safety net of being married is very alien and complicated to me. I appreciate the candid feedback.

The safety net of marriage is one of the reasons I was able to have male friends at work.

So now I wonder why that has to change. Being authentic is pretty much mandatory for me and I want to keep that, and realize I am my safety net.

Make sense?

Adinva, maybe - maybe you are overcomplicating it.

I have 5 brothers and have had male friends for years. I'm used to male company, (and I really do like watching football.)

The attraction of having known or dated someone before, is obvious. So is the need for more care with their heart.

Your situation with this old friend, (flame?) is a bit unusual for 2 reasons. One is that you know you do have some things in common based on your past, and wasn't there chemistry at some point?

Second, you are questioning the reason you turned from him and towards your h, all those years ago. Your issues in your sandbox and you don't want that baggage to hurt you now. So this guy you saw is a bit of a test drive.

That's okay. In reality, ALL the people we meet and date are test drives until if and when we remarry.

And we are theirs. Seems to me that's okay.

Keep posting!

[adinva]

My H's decision to leave me after 18 years of marriage prompted me to explore for the first time why I was like that, and how to do better for myself in life.

any answers to this?

YES - short version is that in formative years apparently my feelings/needs didn't matter so no point acknowledging them; my job was to make everyone else happy and OK. I pushed away anything that got too close to what hurt. Someone really loving me in a very sincere way, maybe made me feel aware of something painful that I didn't understand, so I was very uncomfortable with it. I worked on that a lot in IC, but knowing and doing are very different things.

let this guy halfway in 25 years ago

The new guy, not XH. We never dated, but he was in our friend group when I was exclusively dating XH. The first two years of marriage my H worked TDY in another state, and this friend spent many evenings visiting at my house to watch TV and keep me from being lonely. I had no intention of cheating on H, but I think I allowed this to go on because it was nice to feel desired (certainly H didn't provide much of that).

There were several points along the way that I know I really should have broken up with H, but this friend isn't someone I would have sought out in that case. I don't know about now, but there were qualities I found exciting that I didn't/don't yet see in him. Maybe there would be other qualities I end up liking better, but I haven't dated enough to have much comparison.

I wish I could just have fun and not make everything so serious.

So can you say Why you cannot do ^^this (at least for now),

I never have been able to get away with flirting or getting close to guys in a casual way - it ends up I have to let someone down if I wasn't interested really, or else I really meant it and am headed into a longterm relationship. I see other girls that can be that way, married or not, and it's understood that they're just being fun and casual. So I'm not sure why I can't, but I don't know how to be that way.

[DonH]

I have to take back part of what I said. Not because you were offended, but because they do not apply. I do apologize if these details were in your thread and I missed them. However I did not know that you already knew this guy. Had I known that I would never have suggested a casual meet and greet. What would have been the point of that! So yeah, no reason for it. Although it does appear that you built up expectations in your mind - ones he may not have been able to hit - but who knows? I dated someone for about six months that I had dated 20 years ago. It was much the same in that we talked on the phone a lot, etc. when we met it could have gone either way. We both wanted to make sure the other understood there were no promises either way. As it turned out we totally hit it off! We only stopped dating when she decided to give her exH another chance - and they are still together now four years later. So, see it does happen for some!

Most of my other suggestions still stand. Try to work on taking things as they happen rather than them having to be fair tales right away or even all the time. Just like in piecing, it often takes time together for feelings to develop. If they do, that's great. If not, you've not done anything wrong. It's okay to ask for and express what you want. As long as you ar always honest, you are not doing anything wrong.

[adinva]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I was only *momentarily* offended by the idea of being lumped in as one of those girls who--- ... I got over it. I can't be hypersensitive and hope to get useful feedback at the same time.

I'm landing on wanting to slow things down next time I talk to him. I feel anxious about creating expectations and overwhelmed at the fast start we had, and I think that if I knew we could keep this friendly and casual I would be completely happy about it.

And rather than worrying about how he might feel about that I should be focusing on saying what I need and letting him handle his own feelings whatever they might be.

[adinva]

Journaling. After bouncing it off this group, and a couple of girlfriends, and my IC, I decided I knew my own thoughts clearly enough to share them with my old-new guy friend, and that I needed to be upfront with him before things could get more confusing.

So - much as I complain that I haven't really changed, I believe I may have. I can have a hard conversation now.

He asked if he could call me after his kids were in bed, and so we talked from about 9:30 to 11:30pm. How was your day, how's your new car, regular stuff, until he asked me if my kids had said anything about him after we hung out at my house on Saturday.

I said, not really, and I didn't expect them to, but that I did initiate a conversation with S17 because when he was introduced to the guy Saturday night, S17 had said to us "who's [guy]?" and I gave a flip answer: "[guy] is [guy]." In following up later, I told S17 I was sorry for not giving a serious answer to his legitimate question, I hadn't been sure exactly how to answer it at the time, and we're old friends who had just reconnected and were catching up.

I told [guy] that I had found it difficult to know what to say to the kids, as he was the first single male visitor I'd ever had over since H left, and I was nervous about how to navigate the transition from just being their mom to being mom out dating...and so I didn't say anything at all and just let it play out, which was a bit cowardly. More than that though, I didn't know what to tell them because I wasn't certain of what we were doing, what his (or my) intentions were, if we were friends, if it was a date, or what.

And then I had found myself even more anxious and uncertain after the date than I'd been before it, because it felt like we we'd been moving quickly into something and I did not know how I felt or what I wanted, that I definitely wanted to be dating around casually to learn what I do want, but that with him right now I really very much wanted to be friends, and just friends. I wanted get to know each other again without wondering what we're doing and without being so nervous around each other.

He said that he respected how I felt, and definitely wanted to continue hanging out as just friends if need be, but had wanted it to be more than that and eventually would need to ask again and decide how he and I felt later on. He said he'd had a crush on me back when we used to hang out before, had known nothing would happen since I was married, and had been OK with that. He still wants to get together Saturday.

It came up again later that he had been nervous about whether to kiss me or not when he left, and had been disappointed in himself for being shy, and I told him that I had not wanted him to and was not ready for that at all.

And then he asked me if I had felt any spark at all when we went out. Which was not a fair question at all. I basically had just explained where I was at, and he was looking for some suggestion beyond that. If I said yes, I'd be unrealistically encouraging him. I wasn't prepared to say no; I had said I don't know and that's the truth. If we were on a coffee date from Plenty Of Fish I wouldn't even be having that conversation this soon.

So I feel happy that my friend is back in my life, and that I don't have to reject him entirely OR do something I'm not comfortable with. We have the joy of kids and the pain of divorce in common and lots to talk about, and I could welcome a friend in my life right now.

It's probably good that my gut reaction was so strong, because before getting together my brain was going crazy with imagined scenarios where we hit it off and I could avoid all the hard work of dating and we'd start an exclusive longterm relationship that was all I ever hoped for (DonH hit the nail on the head). If that had happened I would - yet again - miss out on the chance to date around and find out what's right for me just like I did 25 years ago.

[25yearsmlc]

wow, that all sounds complicated.

FWIW, I asked my kids how they'd feel if I were to date. My s30 "would strongly encourage me to date as soon as I'm ready", d19 seems enthused and d28 is less vocal, but offered to help me write my online profile.


I believe our kids do not want to worry about us, but they do worry. In my case I know some of that is about my health issues.

But I THINK some of it is b/c they want to know that h has not "won"...(that is my take on it). They express how unfair they believe the divorce is, and how unfair the marriage was. They see h dating quite openly (and he's really public about it)

I remind them that while I may not be dating yet, that does not mean I'm stuck or waiting, and if I begin dating now, it does not mean I have moved forward and all is great.

I want to live alone for awhile and learn about myself. This is the first time I've been all alone and (it's not all bad, btw. In fact I rather like it).

But I am making choices and decisions ONLY related to me and what I want. No kids involved, no h, just ME, 25.

How are you handling all of that? What are your kids saying, otherwise?

What is it you fear that they feel? They have seen this for awhile.

H dating IMMEDIATELY after we (well, let's face it, he "dated" before we sep) seems weird as heck to me.

I mean, when I take my ego out of it, (which ain't easy) and stand back and view it objectively, I can say that if any friend of mine - male or female, at the age of 60, and right after (during) a 35 year m is ending,

posted publicly all about how HAPPY they are and they met the "love of their life", etc.

i would view it negatively. I would not believe that it was all going to work out well. It would lower my opinion of their maturity, I believe. And I would pity their kids...

But OTOH, when I meet someone who has not dated at all, even years after a sep or divorce, I can see their kids worrying that they are stuck. OR waiting.

And in my kids world, since I already took h back 10 years ago, their worry is more likely to be that I'd wait around for h to "wake up." I sometimes suspect there is a good chance h thinks I'll wait "just in case his dreams don't all come true.

any chance your kids WANT you to date? Can you just broach the topic with them?

Adinva, they want you to be happy. That's a fair assumption, right?

How do you think they envision you being happy, eventually?

[adinva]

Hi 25! I read what your H is doing on FB and thought he's overly compensating or something. I don't think people who are all over FB posting how happy they are are necessarily that happy. I agree it seems immature in our age group to be doing that, and the timing is really inappropriate. A normal person in his position would be discreet, I would think. I wouldn't want to be the girl in those photos either. He sounds unhinged. Sorry.

My kids being out in college and near the end of high school, I think they would be happy for me to be dating. If they were younger I'd have likely been having those first dates off-screen, while they're at school or with a sitter, and they wouldn't have met a guy until he was going to be around for a while. But I had no time for anything then other than parenting them and working. And the special challenges they gave me raising them single-handed (how I survived that I'll never know) would have scared off anyone who might have thought about dating me.

Yeah, I can broach the topic with them. When they first brought girls around, there was no discussion like "hey mom I'm going to start dating now, and what do you think about that, and here's a girl I'm going to date." No, rather a girl would appear one day and my son would be all smiles, and gradually she'd be around more and more. I was kind of thinking along the same lines, but I suppose being in the mom role requires more maturity? And discussion?

My kids are 100% on my team. They do want me to be happy, and I'm less concerned than if they were younger about diverting attention they need from me.

I haven't ever wanted to appear to them as lonely or unhappy, I've got a full life with friends and activities (thanks to DB). So I don't think it would occur to them (or me) that I *need* someone; but they'd likely be happy for me to have fun and a nice companion.

My S19 has a lot of friends whose parents are divorced, dating, remarried, etc., so this is probably less weird for him than it is for me. His best friend, though, is not on speaking terms with his mom who left his dad and after the divorce moved in with a guy who is the "love of her life" on FB too. He refuses to even meet the guy. So it's possible for this to go badly, but there's a lot of difference in our situations.

I don't really want to be teased or made to feel self-conscious, but I suppose that too is a conversation I can have with them. H encouraged meanness and teasing, but he's been gone for a long time now and the boys are very kind and empathic.

[adinva]

I don't think it would occur to them (or me) that I *need* someone

ROFL. I'm kidding myself. I've been so d*mn lonely for so d*mn long. But I know I'm supposed to be fulfilled without *needing* someone, and most days I am, and just want to share my time and passions with a companion. Feeling impatient.

[adinva]

Hi - I'm starting a separate thread for this because there are some very wise people around here and it's not really appropriate for divorcebusting but maybe enough analagous to be a resource for advice or at least commiseration.

My sister has big problems, doesn't know where to turn for help, doesn't think she can afford help anyway, and has a few issues that stand in her way of receiving help anyway (think ADD and anxiety/depression - untreated, possibly borderline personality disorder). But those aren't her problems, these are:
1. Her H is an alcoholic, had a medical crisis either from withdrawal or something else, and has been in the ER and ICU mostly nonresponsive, since the beginning of May. (Same sister who lost her 32yo daughter to heroin OD a year ago.)
2. The doctors can not figure out what's wrong with him and continue providing basic maintenance type support like IV feeding, and order many tests, currently talking about CT scans of head and stomach, last time I spoke with her it was a spinal or bone biopsy (I don't know really, I'm not in medical profession and didn't really understand, but suffice it to say that every day there's something they want to try in order to get at the problem.)
3. He lost his job many months ago, was out of work for a long time, got hired around March and lost that job in a couple of days for showing up drunk. My sister added him to her health insurance plan as she's been the only income source during that time.
4. He has no will and no living will but has only told her verbally that he does not want to be intubated.
5. She has had a shopping addiction and has debt on multiple credit cards, and has not been able to pay all of her bills for a while. She chooses which ones to pay on a case by case basis and for the credit cards only ever pays the minimum. They kept their finances separate and used a joint account for certain things, but he paid his own mortgage and now obviously isn't. He also has car payments. She also has a mortgage on the house she owned before she married him - they live in a depressed area where their houses might be very hard to sell at all. She also has car payments (a whole other story, but you can see the money management is not good there). She is paying her income taxes this year with one of those checks that come with your credit card bill. In short, she probably has a negative net worth right now although she has a small retirement savings account.
6. She works as a nurse and is working extra as much as possible to try to make ends meet, and spends the rest of the time visiting her H or getting minimal sleep at home so she can do her job. She has very little time and no money for counseling or lawyers.
7. She doesn't know, and doesn't seem to be getting any information from the hospital or anyone, how much this will cost, how she'll pay it, and how broke she's going to need to get for him to get on Medicaid and go into a nursing home as he will need to if discharged from the hospital.
8. She can't afford his mortgage this month. (That's the house they live in. Hers is about an hour away.) She's afraid they're going to lose their home, and that she's going to lose everything she has too.
9. Even if she had time, she's so scattered and overwhelmed that she's talked herself into a frenzy about the impossibility of finding time to call a lawyer, inability to pay anyway, maybe she'll just pay it on a credit card, they're probably not going to be able to meet her for weeks anyway, and so on until she just doesn't make the call. No one else can make it for her though.
10. She is hard to give advice to even if you do know some answers. She will listen and then tell you 15 reasons why she can't do what she must do, and then a week later you'll have the exact same conversation all over again. This is where her new-car payments fit in the story BTW - it was impossible for her to consider buying a used car that she could afford because what she really needed was a brand new car she could not afford.
11. I feel guilty not helping but I'm a 10 hour drive away, and have my own financial concerns and my own kids to be responsible for, and I believe if I pay a mortgage payment or a cell phone bill for her, I'm just delaying the bankruptcy that is going to and probably needs to happen. And we have history, so when I've been tempted to pay for a plane ticket for her to visit our sick mom [and didn't], the next thing I hear is she and her H just bought new computers. And a mail-order doll, and an exercise machine. All I can do, and try to do as much as I can, is listen at the end of a phone since she has no friends or support system to vent to there. She scares off friends by coming out of the gate extremely needing and wanting to talk at length about her problems which are admittedly enormous, but which she never takes any steps to change.
12. She recently started going to AA or AlAnon meetings but believed everyone there was telling her to get a divorce, and even if financially that would be wise, emotionally she thinks it would be mean to divorce him in his time of need. And would probably be expensive, and would require her to give up 50% of her assets to him, and many other excuses she can list.

Whew. I don't have the knowledge or resources or emotional bandwidth to help her right now. I tell her how much I love her, and I can distract her with conversation and make her laugh for a bit, and let her cry, but she needs actual help, and isn't getting it.

- There must be some way to access some pro bono legal advice? She has no idea what to do to protect herself or even if it's possible to. It seems impossible to me that she needs to become homeless and penniless in order for him to be in a nursing home. She'll lose her job too, if she has to give up their cars and other assets. This is what she believes is going to happen.
- Isn't there a social worker type role that can help someone navigate this stuff pro bono? I would have thought that was a person at the hospital but based on her situation I can say that if there is such a person at this particular hospital then they are no help whatsoever.
- I'm considering making a gofundme for her, but then again, there's a lot of very personal stuff that I wouldn't want on the internet for the public to view.

I don't know, just had to get that off my chest. It's pretty awful. Just in case anyone here's dealt with extreme money / marriage / health trauma and knows what to do, I thought I'd post it here.

[25yearsmlc]

Adinva,

we can talk this weekend, okay?

I'll say a few things now.

It's against the law in this country for a hospital to kick someone out, who clearly needs care. if he's unresponsive, the worst they could do (assuming they're horrible people but law abiding)

is transfer him to a step down facility. They will NOT tell her that he'll die/be kicked out/ or not treated, b/c she cannot pay. That's been illegal for decades.

I'm not sure why more is not known about his medical condition, but if she is his wife (not common law) and if there are no adult children disagreeing, then she can make the decisions she believes he would make, on his behalf.

She's his next of kin. A will is a document that distributes his property upon death, so it's not really relevant to what's going on while he's alive. A living will - which is lacking here, is about his health care. But again, she can decide for him as his next of kin.

(There are a few exceptions to that, but they go beyond the scope of this post).

*IF he dies, all of his personal loans die with him. His Credit cards, school loans, etc. all go away if he dies. Not saying that's good, but she should not bother paying off his personal loans, especially while he's in the hospital.

Since her credit is shot anyhow, I'd prioritize based on what HER debt is, and secured debt gets paid before unsecured debt and here is how to tell.
" secured debt which is something a creditor can grab.

Car loans are secured debt, so if you fail to pay it, your car can be repossessed and the creditor has 'secured' his debt.

Mortgages are secured debt, but from a practical standpoint, repossessing a home is harder for the creditor than just grabbing a car (repossessing). Credit cards are not secured debt but they can be canceled.

Medical bills are not secured debt.

I'm so sorry she is in the situation and that you are trying to shoulder this. You're a good sister.

I hope she can keep working as an RN and I really hope she keeps going to Al Anon.

Not sure why she thinks they are all telling her to divorce him if he's in the hospital now, so maybe that's all she hears...b/c in reality maybe they are making concrete suggestions and she's too overwhelmed.

Let's touch base soon



((( )))

[adinva]

The divorce advice I think is coming from two directions. One is that he was not hitting rock bottom and she was cleaning up vomit and pee off the floor and paying all the bills while he lay on the couch, and not for the first time over the five years or so that they've been married. So it was, love him, but don't stay married to him. She was completely opposed to that and felt rock bottom could happen without her leaving him (and this may be rock bottom now).

The other is now that she's staring at going into massive debt to pay for nursing care until he dies, maybe years, decades? And maybe could save some of her assets by not being married to him. For that she really needs legal advice.

They have no kids together but she has two young adult kids out of college.

[Ginger1]

I don't think it would occur to them (or me) that I *need* someone

ROFL. I'm kidding myself. I've been so d*mn lonely for so d*mn long. But I know I'm supposed to be fulfilled without *needing* someone, and most days I am, and just want to share my time and passions with a companion. Feeling impatient.

It is drilled into us on this website that we don't "need" anyone. Yes, we don't need anyone to survive. We can make our own money, derive joy from our own activities, raise our kids on our own......

But a basic human need for almost everyone is a romantic relationship/partnership. It is the human condition. My IC and I discussed this extensively. I feel like I am failing because I feel I "need" a partner. I am not failing because I have that need. I am human. You are human, we are all human.

I personally spent most of my adult life without a partner, raising my daughter, working, fulfilling my obligations, having great times and lots of fun along the way. I managed figure out how to GAl with baby/child in tow most of the time. One of biggest hobbies my D attended with me before she could walk or talk. It saved me. She still attends with me 9 years later:)

We are built to love and have compansionship. To be loved and give love as only romantic partners can.

The key is to curb the impatience which is very very difficult at times. I have made poor decisions because of need and my hole in my heart that can't be filled by some GAL activity. But trust me, the wait for the right one I know will be worth it.

hang in there. Trusting my gut and going with my her may have hurt me a bit, but Sometimes it's okay to throw out the rule book or modify it a little if something feel right. But if something doesn't feel right, we really have to listen to that.

[adinva]

I hope it will be ok with the mods not to roll this off-topic discussion up into my regular thread

[25yearsmlc]

I see why she'd get divorce advice.

Who says she can't still love & care for him, as his financially solvent ex-wife, better than as his bankrupt wife?

Not to mention how terrible this all is, as an example of poor boundaries, no consequences, tons of enabling & whatever else she is teaching her kids.

Maybe this isn't very complicated; maybe its just really hard.

[25yearsmlc]

Actually, financially speaking, her being better off divorced is not bad for HIM.

make sense?

[job]

adinva,

Please stick to one thread until you've reached 100 postings. I merged your two threads together. If the moderators allow one person to have more than one thread at a time, then others will come to expect the same when their topics vary. I make every effort to treat all the posters the same because I do not want anyone to feel slighted in any way.

[Maybell]

Adinva, I'm sorry for what your sister is going through. I'll defer the technical advice to 25, who said a lot of what was going through my mind. I agree that it would be better for her to divorce him, though from a practical matter I'm not sure that option is even available to her, depending on what state she lives in. However, I am not a lawyer.

I am a financial professional, and what I will tell you from that perspective is that people who allow themselves to get into serious debt (and it sounds like this was your sister before the medical issues) tend to stay there. If they are rescued, whether by bankruptcy or a generous family member, they tend to find themselves in the same situation within a couple of years. I have attempted to counsel a number of people in that situation and they just really don't seem to want to believe that math works. If they ever do pull themselves together it's because something happened to change how they saw their future.

Bankruptcy is likely in your sister's future. I doubt it will be worse than what she's living with right now. Like so much of what we fear, it's probably not the worst thing that will happen to her. If she goes through it in a managed way her livelihood can be preserved. If she waits for everything to get repossessed, she'll have a worse struggle.

What you're doing -- listening with love and supporting her as best you can (NOT financially) is probably the best thing you probably can do for her.

I don't want to sound like a harda$$, but it seems to me that she has her own rock bottom to hit. I can only imagine how hard that must be to watch and I feel for you. I know how frustrating it is to see in the people I meet with and they're just acquaintances. I imagine you watch her and just see the path through so clearly. It must be very frustrating. But if she is willing to get herself into this situation and resists advice, there's little you can do about that. People can't be changed until something makes them want to change, and that something is rarely another person pointing things out to them.

((((((Adinva)))))

[kml]

I agree with your instinct not to bail her out financially. She's a mess financially.

As for nursing home care and health insurance: thanks to Obamacare, since he's on her insurance, her out of pocket cost for his hospital care is capped (I believe it's something like $6800 this year).

Health insurance will usually cover a month or two in a nursing home if it's considered rehabilitative.

IF it looks like he's going to be a long-term vegetable in a nursing home, then she may need to consider divorcing him so he can qualify for Medicaid.

Your sister needs to attend Debtors Anonymous meetings.

Is she renting out her house? If not, she should. If she can't, she should consider selling the house or letting it go into foreclosure.

The husbands house that she lives in now - can she take in a room mate to help pay the mortgage?

Realize of course that she's not likely to take any financial advice from you. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[adinva]

I'm realizing how challenging the transition to dating is for me. I swing from one extreme to the other and find my anxiety med needed to be increased and on top of that swimming a mile or some cardiokickboxing helps with the excess. I know I'm not being rational, so I'm trying to take it really slow until I settle down.

So far I've seen my old friend D twice. The first time was fun but I panicked at the thought of anything physical with him, so we decided to be friends for now and continue getting reacquainted. That is challenging because we both know he wants more than that, and I don't really know what I want. The second time we got together I met him at his house and met his d9 and s12 and immediately thought they were adorable and I connected with them and enjoyed getting out some of my old schoolager skills - I loved my kids' friends when they were that age (any age really) and so I could see really loving these kids. They showed off for me and I heard I made a very good impression. We then went out to dinner and drinks and talked for hours, and hugged goodbye. Still feeling very reserved physically although we have a great time together and great conversation. There's a lot I like about him and I could definitely see moving things forward...but then I feel panicky again.

Since then we've just texted and talked on the phone. He invited me to meet them at a trampoline party place for his son's birthday, and maybe hang out at a pool with them after the party, and I thought that sounded fun. Even potentially meeting the crazy XW sounded ok to me... Then on further thought and some input from friends I decided it was way too soon for me to get attached to his kids and possibly them to me. If I disappear for whatever reason, I don't want there to be any feelings of abandonment or disappointment. I don't mean to blow things out of proportion, but I also don't want to take any chances with the emotions of children who've already been abandoned in a sense by their mom. Also seeing him with his kids gives him an unfair advantage - 25 has always been right about how attractive it is to see a man being awesome with his children. I was very affected by that on our last date.

So, I called off the party/pool plan and made arrangements instead to meet for coffee during work hours. I do really want to continue getting to know him, but it's really hard for me when it requires planning and sitters and fancy dinners. For me, hangin' around time has always been my preference and the best way for me to know if I want to be with someone or not.

I do love texting with him, and talking on the phone.

But with the pool/kids thing, I felt like we should at least be exclusive if I'm going to hang around with his kids. And I feel really strongly that I need to meet more people to know what I want, and I feel trapped when I think of getting in a relationship with one person right now. I feel like I'll miss my chance at enjoying people freely and going on adventures, and that I'll regret and resent that if I get into something now with D and go right back to the preteen kid stage of life. In a year or two I could feel very differently but right now that is how I feel. So I made it very clear to him that I'd be dating other people...and I intend to do that as soon as I can find someone I feel like dating lol. Just haven't started that process yet. So in effect I am currently non-exclusively dating one person.

Part of my issue is that because of my history and emotional makeup and poor choice of partners so far, and commitment to make those poor choices work because *marriage is for life*...I now call into question my values in choosing someone I want to be with. I like a muscular physique...but I know my xh got his by spending all his time in the gym and on weekend runs and trips without me to triathlons. Therefore, maybe other types of physiques should not be ruled out. My friend D doesn't work out because he has custody of small children and doesn't neglect them to spend half a day in the gym. Just one example. So getting more experience out in the world will help me sift out what's really important to me.

[doodler]

So in effect I am currently non-exclusively dating one person.

advina,

We're a lot alike. Just the other day I had a collision with a stationary car moving in the opposite direction. It's weird how that stuff happens; could it be my neurosis?

[Ginger1]

First, all of this is FEAR. fear of something new. But good things are on the other side of fear. It's reasonable to be fearful, but I think we miss a lot of good things in life because of fear.

You are smart in taking it slow. You are right, kids between 9-12 do become attached pretty easily. My D is 9 and she still misses my last boyfriend. Only the second I introduced her to, but the one she spent the most time with. I became attached to the one before the last's daughter. We had a very special bond. It was very difficult for the both of us.

My last guy was of a physique I was not used to. I never dated an overweight guy before. it just happened to be that way. I met him at the gym in an effort to lose weight. But I found him very attractive. For me, the inside ends up making the outside look different. A very physically attractive guy could be a turn off for me if his personality stinks.

Try not to overthink and just enjoy the ride!

[adinva]

Yes youre right it's fear. I expressed to my IC some of the cr*pstorm of conflicting thoughts streaming out of my head and her response was "maybe you aren't ready to be dating yet". Which I became defensive about. Not acceptable. I'm ready to get ready as long as I can minimize the damage I can inflict on innocent nystanders.

[adinva]

Bystanders

[Sotto]

Hi Advina - I loved your quote above - non exclusively dating one person

I haven't read back, but can see you have been around on the forum for a good while - so your sitch is pretty 'old' - forgive the term.

If that's the case (ie: spent years dealing with XH mayhem) I can see people may be ready to date sooner after D. I have waited for a year and not yet dipped that toe in the water - although there are a couple of attractive, single guys I know and I might be interested if they were etc..

What I say to myself is - I'm pretty much 50 now. I can do what I like (as long as that isn't damaging to others.) So it is fine to have boundaries, and apply them if needs be. I struggle with this as a 'nice girl' sometimes, so it is a work in progress. But I would say - keep it light, enjoy, browse, have some laughs, stay safe - and live fully in other parts of your life too. Romantic love can be lovely, but self-love, good relationships and purpose and meaning in our lives separate to those romantic relationships is so important..

Xx

[adinva]

Thanks Sotto. You sound so grounded! You're right, I have been here a looong time. I spent the first year and a half trying to change his mind, then four years getting used to being on my own and a single parent, then a year fighting with him for a fair settlement... with divorce papers signed this March. Meeting guys was not on the radar at all until the D papers were signed. So it is pretty new to me even though most of my other db buddies moved along a lot sooner than me.

[adinva]

Oy. Is there a shortcut to learning the new rules that seem to have evolved around dating since my time when phones attached to walls with curly cords?

I love the banter of texting but apparently it can be misinterpreted as...
- overwhelming...do we chat every day? If we don't does it mean you're mad at me? If we do does it mean we're "going steady" or something?
- teasing...you can't fully explain anything via text...is it just attempting to keep you thinking about me or simply an indication that I was thinking about you and felt like saying Hey? Am I thinking about you too much? Why or why not?
- intrusive. Is that 10pm Hey interrupting your kid's bedtime? Your bedtime? Nothing at all? Hot s*x with someone else? If you answer right away does it confirm you were waiting with nothing else to do? Or does it confirm that you think I think you have to respond right away?
- a replacement for actually speaking or getting together. Do we have to set up an appointment to talk on the phone or does anyone still just call and leave a message? If we texted for an hour is the idea of speaking on the phone moot now?

Random thoughts. I am not a game player but it's a game anyway, as perceived by the recipient, and can't be avoided during the getting to know you phase. I feel like if i'm thinking of you and feel like saying Hey... I will and let the chips fall.

Don't worry, i'm not going to overthink this. Just find it fascinating and novel at the moment, fraught with unintended perceptions. And stupid weird emoticons. I hate those (except &#9786;).

[adinva]

That was the product of listening to waaaay too many Dating After 50 podcasts.

[Ginger1]

Your post made me laugh. because I still struggle with these rules. And apparently I am of that generation.

My last BF texted quite often. Pretty much all day long until we spoke on the phone or saw eachother. He would literally leave my house and call me on the way home too. he is a millennial without kids, lol. I felt bad not being able to keep up and my work even suffered for it. And my girls weekend away was him texting me constantly. And with kids.... not easy. But he established a frequency of texting and when it deviated I had all those dumb questions run through my head.

I've been trying to figure this stuff out for years. And it is fascinating in a frustrating sense.

[DonH]

Interesting topic. My perspective is from my POV. I have someone interested in me who constantly texts me. If I'd pick up my phone she could see I was "active" on a messaging app and be there in minutes - no matter time of day or night. I HATED IT! I've known her for 15 years but it wasnt until last thanksgiving that anything happened between us. But it's really turned me off to her. At first I thought it may be me and the fact she was so interested was triggering something in me to pull back. Yet, I thought highly of her before so it may well just be her being there at every minute just hoping to talk to me that is a creepy turn off. Whether she really was doing that or not is irrelevant - it feels that way. I finally stopped responding.

And texting constantly on a girls weekend? Yet another red flag and pushing boundaries. Check in on me perhaps once a day to see how things are going but constantly? That's just wrong and would run me off. I have to wonder what your friends said (behind your back if course). I know I've heard many times over the years about stories like this where usually a group of guys would go away and a woman would not leave one of them alone. I've heard it less with a guy doing it to a woman although one time where the women constantly called and texted her guy as well while on a girls trip. Less is more. At least with me.

I never know if it's me who looks at this stuff differently or if I'm seeing it correctly. I just know that if someone is there at every turn, constantly calls, texts, responds in seconds, it's a turn off. Sort of like DB says

[adinva]

Yay donH for your guy point of view! It's so funny that it's a turnoff when someone replies right away to a text *you just sent*? Takes two to tango. And the alternative requires some unattractive gameplaying IMO... Waiting till later when the text is buried way under your kids and work texts to remember to go back and write "same" or "hello to you too"? Silly! LOL

Hey who else was shocked to find out what eggplant emoji means?!?

[adinva]

Oh hey I hope that didn't come across as a criticism! I just love the opportunity to ask frank questions and better understand this dating stuff.

[adinva]

Much better than turning to Seventeen and Cosmo!

[adinva]

Shite - I literally just forgot this conversation and responded immediately to a string of texts! It took me less than 15 minutes to forget what you said. No one is going to want to date me lol!

[Ginger1]

Oh stop! I tend to respond to texts right away because if I don't, I completely forget. That doesn't look good either. This goes for my friends, family, and any guy I might be talking to. That doesn't look good either. Don't worry about the games. You get a text, you see it, you are able to answer, answer it!

I ain't got no time to play that game of balancing the proper time to respond to a text. My rule is if I can at that moment I will, If I can't, I won't go out of my way to do it and I will wait until it is more convenient.

[DonH]

See, ginger, that's exactly what I do! I don't play games or think about it. It's much like on here... Sometimes I can respond right away - other times not. It's the same with text but just depends on what's going on at the time - working, driving, on stage, whatever. Sometimes it's right away, sometimes not. My turn off is when the other person is constantly there all the time every time! Do they not have a life? Are they sitting there waiting for me all the time? As soon as they see me they have to chime in? That's what I'm talking about.

But then Ginger said "I tend to respond to texts right away because if I don't, I completely forget."

Well that would explain why I never got a response from my text of one week ago. I guess I see where I rank. . (Sorry, just no way I could resist that one)

[Ginger1]

See, ginger, that's exactly what I do! I don't play games or think about it. It's much like on here... Sometimes I can respond right away - other times not. It's the same with text but just depends on what's going on at the time - working, driving, on stage, whatever. Sometimes it's right away, sometimes not. My turn off is when the other person is constantly there all the time every time! Do they not have a life? Are they sitting there waiting for me all the time? As soon as they see me they have to chime in? That's what I'm talking about.

But then Ginger said "I tend to respond to texts right away because if I don't, I completely forget."

Well that would explain why I never got a response from my text of one week ago. I guess I see where I rank. . (Sorry, just no way I could resist that one)

It's exactly what happens and I feel like a big A hole when I do it, so that's why I try to respond right away when I can!

[DonH]

Oh you're not an A hole. You just don't love me anymore so you're ghosting me. . (Again, I just had to. I have no self control over my sarcasm)

[bttrfly]

^^ this. is exactly why in a very real way I almost can't be bothered with any of it. too exhausting.

[adinva]

I love it personally. It gives me the same feeling I had when I was a little kid and got a walkie talkie, what fun to be connected to someone from a distance and send messages back and forth! (Except with texting, that is, until they misinterpret, or you cross some etiquette rule you didn't know about, or sound desperate and too-available... oh well.)

I'm with Ginger - I decided if I feel like texting, within reason, I will while I'm thinking about it. If the recipient sees that as a character flaw they're undoubtedly not the right guy for me to be texting anyway, and best find that out sooner rather than later.

I'm sure if I find some more people to date that will cut the amount of texting anyone might get from me, maybe.

I think DonH is going to say I told you so, but I'm feeling ambivalent about starting from scratch with other guys, when I have one perfectly nice one whose character is known to me.

(Granted this feeling is on one side of the pendulum and it swings sometimes back to feeling panicky about getting caught up in a relationship right away.)

My guy friend, however, has encouraged me to go ahead and date around (after I told him I needed to not be exclusive) so that if I am with him afterward it will be because he's the best one for me, not just because he was the first guy to call after my divorce.

[adinva]

Hello DB - it's been a long time! I never mustered up the interest in online dating. Things were going too well with D and although he wanted me to date around if that's what I needed to, he wasn't thrilled with the idea and I just couldn't see why I'd want to even risk something great with him in order to search around for someone else. I felt like he was exactly what I'd have been searching for. Things moved along really quickly since we'd been close friends already and I knew him, his family, his whole background, and he's been really wonderful - I fell head over heels for him, the spark turned out to be there in a very big way, and we connect on a really deep level. Fast forward and we're in love and wanting to spend as much time together as we can. I'm kind of half living at his house, 3-4 nights a week, and his kids love me and share their days and homework and cooking and fun with me. D and I go out on nice dates but also spend a lot of time at his house with his kids. They visit mine too but at their ages (10, 14) it's a lot easier for me to be there than for them to be at my place. My kids (17, 20 and 20's gf 19) are self sufficient and help a lot with taking care of my dogs. They like new guy and his kids, but I don't see an easy way to uproot either family to combine our households. My kids wouldn't want to leave their friends and schools and live an hour away in another state. I don't want to move his kids away from their schools, friends, grandparents who they see all the time, and their summer daycamp that they love. So for now, although we would like to live together, this half and half seems best. It is hard though, and I sometimes feel stretched between a lot of competing geographically separated needs.

One of the things that has been difficult is that I really love kids, love playing with them, am attuned to their needs and bond really quickly. So D's kids have really taken to me. Their mom suffers from some emotional problems in addition to the alcoholism that originally lead to their breakup, and so the kids have a really hard time being with her. It's hard to describe other than that she is so focused on herself that she can't seem to give them anything - she gets mad if they don't go right to her, or if they do or say something she doesn't like, and she storms out. Due to her issues the kids can't go in a car with her or stay at her place, and her depression and anger when she is with them is just really hard for them to want to be around. So the difference between when they're with her and when they're with me is especially obvious. I sometimes feel like I'm their girlfriend too, and their dad sometimes has to compete for my attention. They especially the girl just crave attention. She's so sad when I leave, and when I come back she's right on my lap wanting to tell me everything. I feel lucky they like me so much, and I feel like I'm good for them (I made sure that I was really going to stick around with their dad before I let myself be close with them at all), that I give them something they really need. It's been a struggle because D really hoped they could get what they need from their mom and that maybe I should try to stay more in the background but the kids have grabbed onto me like a lifesaver. I feel like if they cannot get what they need from their mom, it seems wrong to stop them from getting what they need from me. However, I'd really like to get better insight from a therapist. He's been trying for a while to find a good one for his daughter, and I haven't found a good one for me since mine retired. I just keep trying to do the right thing. I never say anything bad about their mom; I try to normalize conversation that includes her. She is really mad that they're around me at all, and gives their dad a very hard time about it. Even though they divorced over 5 years ago he hadn't been dating and I think she had believed if she stopped drinking they'd get back together. So she's furious and hurt, in addition to her other problems. I really wish we could get along; I wish I could help her connect with her kids. It's unrealistic to think so, but they're so hungry for connection. Anyway, it's a rambly post now so I'll stop here but wanted to get these thoughts out.

[Maybell]

That’s really a nice update! How long have you been dating D?

[adinva]

Thanks Maybell! About 10 months so far.

[adinva]

I've found a new T. In spite of how good my life is now, I'm still really really angry with XH and I'm not sure why, I guess just for not being who I thought he was and needed him to be. He didn't love me so he left and that was the right thing to do. I'm with someone now who is showing me everything I was missing before. But I still have to interact with XH in terms of figuring out holidays, graduations, college tuition and other grown-kid type stuff and it's always painful and awkward for me to anticipate how to be and what will happen. (For example we exchanged text messages about S18's graduation and he said he'd go so I was nervous about whether we'd sit together or not, and then he was so late he almost missed it, and didn't sit in the empty seat I had next to me, and I was mad about that; and then he asked S18 to go out to dinner even though S18 and I already had plans, so I was mad about that but invited him along and was nervous about that, and it turned out ok so I was relieved. Too much emotion going on over XH and his behavior.)

So I'm hoping to have T help me with that, and with how to get off the fence and move forward with moving in with my bf, and with the anxiety and depression I still cope with, and various other things I need to work on. Assignment is to re-read Codependent No More. I forgot and fell back into some old patterns, and with my bf's really crazy alcoholic XW it's good for me to get a refresher on the fact that I can't fix things and it's not my job.

The XW is now blaming all her problems on me, and her abusive outbursts to my bf and sometimes to her kids are over the top. But we've been advised to go about our days together like normal and let her have whatever reaction she's going to have, to not walk on eggshells around her. If my bf weren't so perfect for me in other ways, it would be irritating that he comes with little kids and a crazy ex, but he really is good for me.

I'm back in DB to look for wisdom in navigating these complicated relationships since I know a lot of people here deal with the same kinds of things.

[adinva]

Finished Codependent No More and it was a good reminder to stay in my own sandbox. I wish my bf's XW would get into AA and try to get better - she'll be a thorn in bf's side for the next 10 years or more. Alcoholism is a monster.

[focus22]

Alcoholism is a monster.

Yup.

[kml]

New guy I am dating has an ex-wife who was an alcoholic. Fortunately his daughters are in their 20's so he doesn't really have contact with his ex. Hopefully things will stay that way (I think they will, they've been divorced for 4-5 years).

[Vanilla]

Advina

You have no idea really why your ex did what he did. You may think it's because there was lack of love he left. That may or may not be true.

He probably has scrambled eggs for brains anyway, so even he won't know his own mind.

Please stop mind reading it will mean over thinking, and even if he told you that's what it was doesn't make it so.

There is also the thought, he left because he didn't love me and that's because I am not loveable enough for him. He is a pea brain and treated you badly, his opinion doesn't count.

What counts is your opinion of you.

V

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