Divorced by 2016

[DonH]

Adinva, I don't think I've posted to you before but do seem to find a lot of women like you in the dating world - or at least I did when I was more active. I remember meeting women online that would tell me how they were planning a first date with someone in a few days to weeks and didn't want to talk to anyone else. I'd be like ??????? It was almost as though they were so desperate for someone or at least all in that even before a first date they were willing to cast off any others. It almost seems like that's where you were. Very excited, wanting a lot right away so you did a bunch of texting, talking, communicating with someone you've not even gone on a date with yet. You created who you hoped he would be in your mind. Then when he was not that... Did he even have a chance? Who could live up to what someone creates in their mind?

Dating takes time. Taking it one step at a time, slowly is often your best bet. He doesn't seem to be doing that either? You don't owe him anything you know? If you are feeling apprehensive tell him that. Sure you can be quiet or not reciprocate or ghost him but would it not be better to just say, "Look, all of this is very new to me. You seem to be wanting much more than I am and I just wanted to be straightforward with you. I'd enjoy going out and seeing where it goes, but right now, I'm just looking to meet people and slowly get back out there." If he knew that, would that reduce your apprehension? If so, that's what you need to do. Then, take some deep breaths and a few steps back. You don't owe this guy or any guy anything. Take the time to get to know them. Plus, one thing I've really found to be true is I can't tell very well at all how I'll fit with someone until we meet in person. I can often tell in person after only a few minutes. Not at all the case on the phone or text or email. There is nothing at all wrong with a quick meet and greet. Have coffee or a drink. Limit it to no more than an hour. If the chemistry is there, you'll both be looking forward to going on a real date. Had you done that here, had you even gone on the real date?

Just some thoughts and suggestions that I hope might help.

[adinva]

Thanks Don! You have good insight. I used to hang out with this friend years ago and was aware that he paid me a lot of attention although I was dating my H and/or newlywed. So nothing was going to happen back then. I think the assumption that we know each other well led at least me to think I could skip over the coffee date part. I would have liked to see him casually right away but instead we spoke on the phone and texted for many hours before scheduling a whole evening date. You're right on target about what happened.

I'm also inclined to neither ghost him nor continue hours long convos until I have a better handle on how to communicate where I'm at in a nonhurtful way. So I'm responding, just trying to keep it more casual than the first couple days.

All this has only been a week, and only 2 days since meeting in person, so i'm just trying to get my head straight. It was just too much (imagining) too soon. We still have plans to get together next weekend and I should probably have that conversation then or before then.

He was a very dear friend long ago so I want to be careful and fair to him.

[adinva]

I was momentarily offended by this:

I do seem to find a lot of women like you in the dating world

but wanted to absorb the rest of your message because I'm here trying to learn how not to be like whatever "a lot of women" might be doing wrong. And what better place than this to ask such vulnerable questions?!

Somehow 25 years ago I was a girl who would choose to be with and marry a guy who wasn't that into her, and push nicer guys away, because I was that uncomfortable with real feelings. My H's decision to leave me after 18 years of marriage prompted me to explore for the first time why I was like that, and how to do better for myself in life. Sometimes now that 6 years have passed, I catch myself regressing and get frustrated that I haven't really changed at all. At least when I slip up, I realize at some point that I did, and I try to rectify it - so at least that much is improved.

Avoiding hard conversations and complicated feelings is exactly why I let this guy halfway in 25 years ago, and it's easy to fall back in that pattern but I don't want to do that.

BUT - as you point out Don, this is just a first date, not even a relationship, and it doesn't need to be all or nothing. I don't need to push him away just because I don't want to pick out china patterns with him. I wish I could just have fun and not make everything so serious.

Getting to know men outside the safety net of being married is very alien and complicated to me. I appreciate the candid feedback.

[25yearsmlc]

My head is all over the place. My friend has a sitter for Saturday so its a real date. It has dredged up a lot of unresolved stuff, answering questions and choosing what to divulge, what not to. Catching myself still seeking pity when this is my chance to own my story focus on all the good in my life and hold my head up. I still find there's anger about some things. I will swim some of it off at the gym.

This^^^ is going to be my goal, and maybe one of my mantras. I do not want to be a victim, though I admit I feel like one.

I am the author of how the rest of my life goes, so it's my story.

I think there must be a way to avoid all the "why'd you divorce?" questions, without hiding stuff. (Though in time you'd obviously both need to figure out what the other person learned, and what their triggers and values are).

Maybe you wait til later in the new relationship and then gently ask. I would also look hard at their relationships with their kids. If the kids are old enough to "get it"< and they are not close to their dad (or mom if you are a LBH), that would strike a chord of oddness to me.

but this^^ can wait a bit.

How are WE to answer? Frankly, if the guy asked ME why H and I are now divorcing, my one word answer would be "dishonesty".

Which seems over simplified, and very biased,( and is.)

But like you, Adinva, I'm not sure what the heck h was thinking or planning or for how long. H put me in an impossible position. I think your h did that with you, as well.

But yes, hold your head up!

[25yearsmlc]

I was momentarily offended by this:

I do seem to find a lot of women like you in the dating world

but wanted to absorb the rest of your message because I'm here trying to learn how not to be like whatever "a lot of women" might be doing wrong. And what better place than this to ask such vulnerable questions?!

So True.

Somehow 25 years ago I was a girl who would choose to be with and marry a guy who wasn't that into her, and push nicer guys away, because I was that uncomfortable with real feelings. My H's decision to leave me after 18 years of marriage prompted me to explore for the first time why I was like that, and how to do better for myself in life.


any answers to this? Not that you have to share them, but have you figured any of that out?

BTW, I'm going back to that workshop in Philadelphia in July. I think I told you about it, but it's called "Essential Experience" and you may want to check it out.

For me, it was like 2 years of therapy in one long weekend. (There's follow up support groups too, some online, so you can keep your work going without having to return there). Very profound, plus you get an action plan to DO so you make the changes you want and need. B/c it's "experiential" and not a lecture format , it's hard to rehearse or edit your responses. That was key for me.



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Avoiding hard conversations and complicated feelings is exactly why I let this guy halfway in 25 years ago, and it's easy to fall back in that pattern but I don't want to do that.

"this guy" , meaning the guy you just had the date with, or your h?


BUT - as you point out Don, this is just a first date, not even a relationship, and it doesn't need to be all or nothing. I don't need to push him away just because I don't want to pick out china patterns with him. I wish I could just have fun and not make everything so serious.

So can you say Why you cannot do ^^this (at least for now),

OR are you saying it's your goal?

Getting to know men outside the safety net of being married is very alien and complicated to me. I appreciate the candid feedback.

The safety net of marriage is one of the reasons I was able to have male friends at work.

So now I wonder why that has to change. Being authentic is pretty much mandatory for me and I want to keep that, and realize I am my safety net.

Make sense?

Adinva, maybe - maybe you are overcomplicating it.

I have 5 brothers and have had male friends for years. I'm used to male company, (and I really do like watching football.)

The attraction of having known or dated someone before, is obvious. So is the need for more care with their heart.

Your situation with this old friend, (flame?) is a bit unusual for 2 reasons. One is that you know you do have some things in common based on your past, and wasn't there chemistry at some point?

Second, you are questioning the reason you turned from him and towards your h, all those years ago. Your issues in your sandbox and you don't want that baggage to hurt you now. So this guy you saw is a bit of a test drive.

That's okay. In reality, ALL the people we meet and date are test drives until if and when we remarry.

And we are theirs. Seems to me that's okay.

Keep posting!

[adinva]

My H's decision to leave me after 18 years of marriage prompted me to explore for the first time why I was like that, and how to do better for myself in life.

any answers to this?

YES - short version is that in formative years apparently my feelings/needs didn't matter so no point acknowledging them; my job was to make everyone else happy and OK. I pushed away anything that got too close to what hurt. Someone really loving me in a very sincere way, maybe made me feel aware of something painful that I didn't understand, so I was very uncomfortable with it. I worked on that a lot in IC, but knowing and doing are very different things.

let this guy halfway in 25 years ago

The new guy, not XH. We never dated, but he was in our friend group when I was exclusively dating XH. The first two years of marriage my H worked TDY in another state, and this friend spent many evenings visiting at my house to watch TV and keep me from being lonely. I had no intention of cheating on H, but I think I allowed this to go on because it was nice to feel desired (certainly H didn't provide much of that).

There were several points along the way that I know I really should have broken up with H, but this friend isn't someone I would have sought out in that case. I don't know about now, but there were qualities I found exciting that I didn't/don't yet see in him. Maybe there would be other qualities I end up liking better, but I haven't dated enough to have much comparison.

I wish I could just have fun and not make everything so serious.

So can you say Why you cannot do ^^this (at least for now),

I never have been able to get away with flirting or getting close to guys in a casual way - it ends up I have to let someone down if I wasn't interested really, or else I really meant it and am headed into a longterm relationship. I see other girls that can be that way, married or not, and it's understood that they're just being fun and casual. So I'm not sure why I can't, but I don't know how to be that way.

[DonH]

I have to take back part of what I said. Not because you were offended, but because they do not apply. I do apologize if these details were in your thread and I missed them. However I did not know that you already knew this guy. Had I known that I would never have suggested a casual meet and greet. What would have been the point of that! So yeah, no reason for it. Although it does appear that you built up expectations in your mind - ones he may not have been able to hit - but who knows? I dated someone for about six months that I had dated 20 years ago. It was much the same in that we talked on the phone a lot, etc. when we met it could have gone either way. We both wanted to make sure the other understood there were no promises either way. As it turned out we totally hit it off! We only stopped dating when she decided to give her exH another chance - and they are still together now four years later. So, see it does happen for some!

Most of my other suggestions still stand. Try to work on taking things as they happen rather than them having to be fair tales right away or even all the time. Just like in piecing, it often takes time together for feelings to develop. If they do, that's great. If not, you've not done anything wrong. It's okay to ask for and express what you want. As long as you ar always honest, you are not doing anything wrong.

[adinva]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I was only *momentarily* offended by the idea of being lumped in as one of those girls who--- ... I got over it. I can't be hypersensitive and hope to get useful feedback at the same time.

I'm landing on wanting to slow things down next time I talk to him. I feel anxious about creating expectations and overwhelmed at the fast start we had, and I think that if I knew we could keep this friendly and casual I would be completely happy about it.

And rather than worrying about how he might feel about that I should be focusing on saying what I need and letting him handle his own feelings whatever they might be.

[adinva]

Journaling. After bouncing it off this group, and a couple of girlfriends, and my IC, I decided I knew my own thoughts clearly enough to share them with my old-new guy friend, and that I needed to be upfront with him before things could get more confusing.

So - much as I complain that I haven't really changed, I believe I may have. I can have a hard conversation now.

He asked if he could call me after his kids were in bed, and so we talked from about 9:30 to 11:30pm. How was your day, how's your new car, regular stuff, until he asked me if my kids had said anything about him after we hung out at my house on Saturday.

I said, not really, and I didn't expect them to, but that I did initiate a conversation with S17 because when he was introduced to the guy Saturday night, S17 had said to us "who's [guy]?" and I gave a flip answer: "[guy] is [guy]." In following up later, I told S17 I was sorry for not giving a serious answer to his legitimate question, I hadn't been sure exactly how to answer it at the time, and we're old friends who had just reconnected and were catching up.

I told [guy] that I had found it difficult to know what to say to the kids, as he was the first single male visitor I'd ever had over since H left, and I was nervous about how to navigate the transition from just being their mom to being mom out dating...and so I didn't say anything at all and just let it play out, which was a bit cowardly. More than that though, I didn't know what to tell them because I wasn't certain of what we were doing, what his (or my) intentions were, if we were friends, if it was a date, or what.

And then I had found myself even more anxious and uncertain after the date than I'd been before it, because it felt like we we'd been moving quickly into something and I did not know how I felt or what I wanted, that I definitely wanted to be dating around casually to learn what I do want, but that with him right now I really very much wanted to be friends, and just friends. I wanted get to know each other again without wondering what we're doing and without being so nervous around each other.

He said that he respected how I felt, and definitely wanted to continue hanging out as just friends if need be, but had wanted it to be more than that and eventually would need to ask again and decide how he and I felt later on. He said he'd had a crush on me back when we used to hang out before, had known nothing would happen since I was married, and had been OK with that. He still wants to get together Saturday.

It came up again later that he had been nervous about whether to kiss me or not when he left, and had been disappointed in himself for being shy, and I told him that I had not wanted him to and was not ready for that at all.

And then he asked me if I had felt any spark at all when we went out. Which was not a fair question at all. I basically had just explained where I was at, and he was looking for some suggestion beyond that. If I said yes, I'd be unrealistically encouraging him. I wasn't prepared to say no; I had said I don't know and that's the truth. If we were on a coffee date from Plenty Of Fish I wouldn't even be having that conversation this soon.

So I feel happy that my friend is back in my life, and that I don't have to reject him entirely OR do something I'm not comfortable with. We have the joy of kids and the pain of divorce in common and lots to talk about, and I could welcome a friend in my life right now.

It's probably good that my gut reaction was so strong, because before getting together my brain was going crazy with imagined scenarios where we hit it off and I could avoid all the hard work of dating and we'd start an exclusive longterm relationship that was all I ever hoped for (DonH hit the nail on the head). If that had happened I would - yet again - miss out on the chance to date around and find out what's right for me just like I did 25 years ago.

[25yearsmlc]

wow, that all sounds complicated.

FWIW, I asked my kids how they'd feel if I were to date. My s30 "would strongly encourage me to date as soon as I'm ready", d19 seems enthused and d28 is less vocal, but offered to help me write my online profile.


I believe our kids do not want to worry about us, but they do worry. In my case I know some of that is about my health issues.

But I THINK some of it is b/c they want to know that h has not "won"...(that is my take on it). They express how unfair they believe the divorce is, and how unfair the marriage was. They see h dating quite openly (and he's really public about it)

I remind them that while I may not be dating yet, that does not mean I'm stuck or waiting, and if I begin dating now, it does not mean I have moved forward and all is great.

I want to live alone for awhile and learn about myself. This is the first time I've been all alone and (it's not all bad, btw. In fact I rather like it).

But I am making choices and decisions ONLY related to me and what I want. No kids involved, no h, just ME, 25.

How are you handling all of that? What are your kids saying, otherwise?

What is it you fear that they feel? They have seen this for awhile.

H dating IMMEDIATELY after we (well, let's face it, he "dated" before we sep) seems weird as heck to me.

I mean, when I take my ego out of it, (which ain't easy) and stand back and view it objectively, I can say that if any friend of mine - male or female, at the age of 60, and right after (during) a 35 year m is ending,

posted publicly all about how HAPPY they are and they met the "love of their life", etc.

i would view it negatively. I would not believe that it was all going to work out well. It would lower my opinion of their maturity, I believe. And I would pity their kids...

But OTOH, when I meet someone who has not dated at all, even years after a sep or divorce, I can see their kids worrying that they are stuck. OR waiting.

And in my kids world, since I already took h back 10 years ago, their worry is more likely to be that I'd wait around for h to "wake up." I sometimes suspect there is a good chance h thinks I'll wait "just in case his dreams don't all come true.

any chance your kids WANT you to date? Can you just broach the topic with them?

Adinva, they want you to be happy. That's a fair assumption, right?

How do you think they envision you being happy, eventually?