as_it_is - my advanture continues (part 5)

[mahhhty]

Sorry Man. I don't really believe this ""It just explains well where I am. How I'm not holding a grudge, for instance. It is in no way to convince her to come back. It may help her relax so that we can make this next sticky phase of negotiations be a little easier on both of us."

I've been there and I've had these feelings. By doing what you want to do, you want get the action you are trying for. Somewhere inside you probably know this. You need to be strong, silent, and respectful. You have to not argue with her and if an argument ensues put it out quickly and painlessly (on your behalf). Be analytical, business like, confident, etc. This is what you have to do. You don't have to give her a book.

Try to look at it a different way...

You brought the boys by to see her and "wanted some of that." --- So you aren't detached, and when you aren't, that means feelings cloud, fog or muddy analytical thinking.

You want to give her the book. Why... Because "it might help her understand where I am in a way that makes our D negotiations healthier & helps w/ the important building of a good co-parenting R." They are Divorce Negotiations. Again, I've been there. There is NO way... repeat NO way. To have these things go smooth. AND it will be a long time after the D is finalized that a good coparenting situation develops. Divorce at its very nature is emotion and competitive.

I think that is only a piece of it.. on some level you want to believe that giving her a book, would make her read it (unlikely). And then reading it would create some sort of reaction that turns this thing around.... I know I have been there. No offense. Reading a book does not mean that you understand and have implemented all parts and knowledge represented in it. It doesn't make you a beacon or expert. That comes with practice and time.

These things take time. Be patient, be analytical. Be like water.

[asitis]

OK. Uncle.

You all convinced me to stop even entertaining the idea.

That's a big part of why we come here. Thanks.

[mahhhty]

Sorry if I was too harsh. I really have been there. I have had these feelings and on some level I continue to have them.

I think on some level if it is there decision to leave, it has to be there decision to come back, and as someone has stated before, they will only come back if they believe they can be happier than before.

So what does that mean??? My take is that you have to analyze her critiques of you and work on them. Put in checks and balances to remove those behaviors over time. Take away the negative things she said about you and become a stronger person for it. Then when those have been demonstrated (that means you've identified them, identified ways to deal with them, and practiced those methods) perhaps at some point she will notice.

[asitis]

You weren't too harsh.

I have taken care of the behavior she said hurt her or made her unhappy. It isn't a matter of continuing to work on myself, at least in terms of demonstrating that things would be different. She doesn't really care that much. It has more to do with her and her issues at this point.

I just continue to be me, focus on myself, be understanding, and let her go whatever path she chooses. I'll leave the door ajar if she wants to come back and work on things.

We meet for our first negotiation tomorrow. The subject will be custody issues. We're almost certainly in agreement about the basic. There are some differences on leaving the future about one of us moving away from the other. I don't have a clue if she thinks I'd actually move away from the kids, or if she thinks if she remarried & that person got a job elsewhere that she'd want to take the kids with her (not going to ever agree to that). If it is me she thinks she's accommodating, that won't be difficult, as even if I were to remarry, the person would need to understand that I'm not moving away from my kids. Not for anything. If she thinks she could, I'll be even more surprised about her than I already am. Not thinking ahead.

I'm just going to listen, focus on what's best for the kids and practical, and keep an even keel. We'll work this part out fairly easily. We're saving the difficult one - finances - for last.

She wanted to cover custody, the house, and divide up the cars & furniture in one hour meeting, "and maybe start on the finances." More fantasy land. We haven't even inventoried all the furniture, appliances, and other valuables. Even if things go smoothly, we're going to bring up things the other hasn't thought of, and some of those are going to require some thinking on. Just not sure how she thinks things are going to be so easy. Don't want to be seen as bursting that bubble, but I've already planted a couple seeds that this will take multiple meetings.

I'm surprisingly calm about the negotiations. I'm not troubled by it as I have by meetings in the past. Just another opportunity to DB. I'm on guard to being too attached to any way of doing things or any possession. My happiness and the quality of the co-parenting R are more important than any thing. I'm not going to give away the store, I'm just not going to get hung up on having my particular way prevail or get hung up on any piece of furniture. And, it will of course be a great opportunity to practice my mindfulness and R skills.

Of course, she still hasn't let me know when the meeting will be, so she may have forgotten to get a baby sitter. Then again, she hasn't been all that considerate to give me heads up.

[gonegrl]

As, I wish you well tomorrow. I never even considered the future with custody and remarriage and moving, etc. Does that get covered in D negotiations? Or is that something you have to renegotiate in the future if it comes up? Just curious, never thought that far ahead.

I hope you have a restful night and I know you will hold your own during your meeting tomorrow.

[mutatio]

asitis, love your attitude. Enjoy the dance with your wife tomorrow and let us know if she tips her hand.

[asitis]

Dance called off. Babysitter couldn't get out of work on time, so we postponed our negotiations until next week. I was in a good mood & ready to do some DBing. Ah well, it's a beautiful day here, so I'll go get some work done on the deck.

[asitis]

Been mostly offline the last few days, as life is incredibly busy. Still have to finish what has turned into a 30 page paper and do peer evaluation of my training partner before midnight. Taking a little break to check in.

I've had some very good days, and a helpful discussion Tuesday with my DB coach. Lots of work, some social networking and new friends, and good casual and joking brief interaction with my W. Didn't get to have my new weekly father-son dinner last night because of how busy I am. W was very flexible taking the kids for the evening.

Last night and today have been a bit rough. I didn't meditate last night, which may be part of the deal, and I'm definitely working too much and not getting much break. I had a number of dreams featuring the W, including some w/ vague sexual connotations that I don't really remember clearly. The last one was ongoing when my alarm woke me up. I've felt sort of off and down about my sitch today, probably as a consequence. Miss my W today. We chatted about a book of mutual interest, and talked about the pope's visit a bit. We've really just seemed much more comfortable interacting. It is hard to understand why she doesn't want to spend more time with me, as we get along well, have interests in common, and things have been good between us. Part of the not fathoming why she still sees no hope for the M, I guess. We are doing so well that we are going to be negotiating the terms of our D over coffee starting this weekend. We are interested in each other's work, have our common bond of the kids. But still nothing.

I know this will pass with a good night sleep, some meditation, and taking a bit of a personal break tomorrow when I come up from work for air. Still, it is funny how something like a dream can seem to set the tone for the whole day.

I'll try to catch up on people's sitches in the next couple days.

[asitis]

So our first one-on-one D negotiation today. Met at a coffee shop. I got her talking casual topics for a while before we started. When we did, I asked if I could say something before, & she agreed. I told her what my DB coach had recommended about realizing I hadn't been fully alive and that it took her to set off that conversation that has been a catalyst, about how I know how draining that must have been because in a way she wasn't fully alive either & I felt the impact of that. I thanked her, then said how grateful I was that we were handling things so well that we could do it this way, how unusual that was, and how much I appreciate her, me, and us that we are capable of it. Then, relayed a couple of things that had surprised me about the last year & a half (like being able to be really good about sitting here doing what we were doing, etc.). Then asked her if anything surprised her. She thought & answered that we were doing so well and not doing things to hurt each other intentionally and that were doing so well too.

It sounds a bit stilted, but it really flowed naturally, and went well. Let her lead off on the agenda. We quickly agreed on the car division & that selling the house. We agreed to talk at our next meeting about what needed to be done to get the house ready to sell and what we should not try to do. She was is left with some tasks (finding a landscaper to handle some of the yard issues).

We then moved to custody. She agreed with 50/50 with flexibility in short term. She agreed to a 25 mile limit on how far we moved, and after I explained why not leaving things flexible when the kids were in their teens, she said that was helpful to think about and that she agreed that until they left home we'd restrict ourselves. I got to say that if I remarried and that person would know that I was not moving away from my kids and had to be fine with it. She said she felt the same way, and also agreed that the person moving away would be losing primary custody.

We talked about restrictions on introducing future romantic partners, and she agreed w/ the general principles, but wanted to think about just how long before it was OK to introduce someone. I voiced that I was a bit uncomfortable with the issue of having another man around my kids, as like it or not, men were the overwhelming perpetrators of physical and sexual violence against women and children, and that you can't always tell who would turn out to be an abuser. She acknowledged that reality and said that the kids would always be her priority. I told her I knew that, but thanked her for saying so anyway.

We talked about notifying each other when we took the kids on any trip so that there were no worries, and she agreed that we could put that in an agreement. We both agreed that it didn't need to be written permission. We also agreed that we'd just negotiate fair reciprocation of vacations. We set aside holidays to think on it more.

As we finished up, we talked about what would happen at next meeting. She said we could take care of the furniture & maybe start the finances. I said that we didn't even have an inventory of what we had to begin dividing. She said that she was only really interested in one thing we had bought together: the dresser. And that she recognized that I'd bought a lot of the furniture w/ inheritance money and even w/ spousal support would have a lower income. I pointed out that while that was all true, that she would be taking on some of the debt we accumulated & that this directly or indirectly represented a financial stake in the furniture. She said she hadn't thought of it this way, and that I was right, but we both agreed that we would not put things above a healthy R.

We then talked about doing things as a family. She said she was comfortable with us meeting like this, but still felt everyone was too stressed at our recent family get togethers (we've had two - one a month & a half ago that was truly last minute & we were rushed, and the other 6.5 months ago). She said we should do things if it was best for the kids. I said there wasn't any rush, and let it drop before adding that the advice I've been given is that it would be uncomfortable until we all got used to it, so this wasn't really a good reason. We'd covered a lot.

We talked a bit about my schooling, then how I was getting frustrated w/ the Social Work trained therapists, and how especially my training was making it clearer and clearer how limited their training was. I said that if we ever had a conflict as co-parents and needed counseling, that I didn't want to use the guy we did, as I wasn't happy that he didn't seem to understand some of the basics that marriage and family therapist trained counselors did. She agreed. We talked about how therapists tended to take too much of an individualist view of things, and I related that this has been an ongoing struggle for me, as were are told that we should treat the person right in front of me, and not consider the impact on others. I didn't agree with that.

We then talked generally about some of the other aspects of my training that I felt uncomfortable with, and that colored a lot of IC & MC approaches. As usual, we were of the same opinion.

More small talk as I got us up to leave. We seemed to find reasons to bring something else up as we walked to the cars, and chatted a bit by her car until I said I really had to go because I had a lot of work.

That's already too long a post. There were a couple other interesting things that came up, but I'll save those for another post.

Overall, very easy and pleasant, all things considered.

[V2pt0]

Glad to hear that your first discussion went so well considering what it was. Sounds like you stayed calm and supportive. Great work!