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#2606662 09/14/15 03:13 AM
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Clay234 Offline OP
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I am currently separated from my wife of 17 1/2 years who left a year ago to move in with her parents. She said “this marriage is over.” She wavered for a while afterward and I was told by one of my kids that she cried for days after she left, but now says she absolutely sure does not want to reconcile.

We tried marriage counseling for a couple months and my WAS committed to the MC that she would give it 6 months per the request of the MC. We were meeting individually weekly and then together every two weeks. After two months of her not even making an attempt to reconcile, she quit and said " I need to find out who I am."

I tried talking with her after that and did everything the experts say not to do (begging, convincing, reminding her of all the good times, etc.) Even after I read and was told not to, I still desperately tried (and failed).

She had retained an attorney the day after she left me and then filed for legal separation the next month after she had told the MC she would wait until our next meeting together.

A few months later we were in court on a day that just happened to be our 17th anniversary and she revealed that she was changing her filing to dissolution. I was absolutely devastated, as she kept going back and forth and telling me she didn't know what would happen in the future.

Here is a little background on her:

She is 43 years old and has lived with her parents 6 times since she turned 18. She has all the traits of someone with Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder (PAPD)and also has a an unhealthy co-dependent relationship with her parents. She has left me three times during our marriage and always runs to them. They blame me for everything that happens and deny that their daughter has any mental health issues. This is her second marriage.

To my knowledge, she has not been officially diagnosed with PAPD and the therapist she is seeing says it is not an issue, but I have lived with her for nearly two decades and I am absolutely sure. I have had two clinicians (both of whom have met with her) suggest to me that it is BPD. I am quite familiar with BPD, as I have been studying it for more than 20 years. Regardless, there are issues she needs to work on, but will not and will never accept responsibility for anything. I have caught myself apologizing for things that are not my fault in order to smooth things over.

A few weeks ago she was pleasant with me and said when I asked, that she might consider holding off on the divorce, as it has not yet been entered into judgment. I told her since we are legally separated, we are basically divorced now anyway, so there is no rush. A couple weeks later, she told me she definitely wants a divorce. She said “we can get the kids into counseling, but we are not doing family counseling.” She said “you abused me”. I told her she abused me. She seemed to think that was ridiculous, but it is true. I have not always been perfect, but many times, I have been sucked into her “crazy-making” behavior and exhibited what is known as “mutual projection”. Sometimes she has treated me very well and seemed like she was head over heels in love with me and my best friend, but I can also say that she has treated me worse than any human I have ever met. Now she says "I need to move on with my life" She claimed I abused her because two years ago, she overheard me saying that she is an attention wh*re." I apologized for it at the time and it that is nothing compared to the things she has called me.

As mentioned above, she is living with her parents. Her parents have frequently interfered with our marriage and blamed everything that has ever happened between us on me and have also suggested that I verbally abused her even though I know that she was verbally abused by them when she was growing up.

She says she is happy now. She says she is going to get her own place, but most likely never will, as her parents don’t really want her to and she is too scared to be on her own. She never has been, as she was married at 18 (I am her second husband). She thinks her parents are the greatest people in the world (or at least she is trying to convince herself of that). If anyone here has read Negative Love Syndrome by Bob Hoffman, you know what is going on here. She is now getting the approval she always wanted from them and is now “happy” because of it. That is my theory anyway.

The problem is, since her parents blame everyone else for everything and have said to me “we know she has difficulty regulating her moods, but we don’t think she is mentally ill”, there is no way she is going to get the help she needs. She knows I have thought in the past that she may be a borderline and it infuriates her that I think that. I must mention that my 24 year old daughter’s mother, to whom I was never married, is a borderline and my wife hates her. She doesn’t like being put in the same category with my ex. She and her family seem to think they are above having any issues and that it is always someone else that is the problem. My wife is currently in counseling, but I am not sure it is going to help unless she is honest with herself and her parents stay out of it, which is unlikely, as they involve themselves in everyone’s business and don’t allow anyone to make their own decisions.

I am the only one who really wants to help her, but she doesn’t see it. I really do care about my wife and want to keep the family together but she really does not care and is in denial about what it is doing to the kids.

Also, her 20 year old son moved back in with me three weeks after my wife left. He said he was tired of being used and that the environment was too toxic over there. When he deiced to move back in with me, my wife’s parents absolutely let him have it. Her father told him he had betrayed that side of the family. Since then, he has tried to help her by telling her she has a mental illness and told her if she didn’t stop being selfish and treating people poorly, she would not be invited to his wedding, his graduation or be allowed around his kids. She cussed him out and said “fine” and then left. She went home and told her family that he had disowned her. Now when she comes to pick up the kids, she will not come in if he is here. BTW, he is a very nice young man. He does not drink, do drugs, go to parties, etc., and he and his fiancé plan to remain celibate until they are married. He did not want things to turn out that way, but says he is at peace now and will not have anything to do with her or her family.

With all that said, I want to make it clear that I (like any partner in a marriage) am not blameless, but I have never abused her in any way, nor have I ever cheated on her. I adore her and my entire goal in life was to have a happy family. Mt step-son and many others say “you can do better” and I am sure there are women out there who will treat me well, but I have an unconditional love for my wife and want her to come back (as long as she seeks treatment) and learns to apologize for the things she has done. I have been very distraught over this and have cried every day for the last year.

Just last year a couple weeks before she left, she was talking about retirement and how much we would have and what we were going to do. I questioned our MC about the possibility of a MLC, but she said didn’t think so because she has these personality issues. I think she has always had one foot out the door, but I also think there is a possibility of a MLC.

Any suggestions from anyone on here would be greatly appreciated.


Me 52
ExW 45
D1 26
S1 22
S2 18
D2 17

M-17
T-18

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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Clay234-
Thats a long post that essentially is blaming her entirely for the downfall of your marriage. I am interested to know the other side. I think everyone here is a lot more interested in helping you than in helping her. I am worried that you are so focused on diagnosing her problems and suggesting you can fix her than on looking inward and figuring out your own problems.

What did you contribute?
What would SHE SAY that you contributed (whether you think so or not)?

Last edited by Cadet; 09/14/15 07:38 PM.
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Clay234 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Azzork
Clay234
Thats a long post that essentially is blaming her entirely for the downfall of your marriage. I am interested to know the other side. I think everyone here is a lot more interested in helping you than in helping her. I am worried that you are so focused on diagnosing her problems and suggesting you can fix her than on looking inward and figuring out your own problems.

What did you contribute?
What would SHE SAY that you contributed (whether you think so or not)


I think you might have missed a few things in my post. As mentioned, this is her second marriage and her ex husband says that she did the same things with him (compulsive lying, hiding money, manipulating, temper tantrums). I also mentioned that I have apologized for many things even though they were not my fault. Of course some things were, but not everything. She NEVER apologizes and always plays the victim.

I understand that no one is perfect, but I have done everything I can to be a good husband. I would never cheat on her, don't drink, smoke, do drugs or gamble and would never raise a hand toward her, our her in danger or verbally abuse her. ( AND THAT IS NOT IMPLYING I AM PERFECT). Of course I have flaws. We all do.

I have tried several times to get her to commit to MC, but she will not try. She is never content with anything and always wants something new or different.

As mentioned, her parents have interfered many times and have actually showed up at our house because she had called them when she was having a "panic attack" while we were having an argument.. If she doesn't get what she wants, she either pouts or gets angry.

As mentioned above, her son moved back in with me because he was tired of being manipulated by her. She blamed My oldest daughter, who was 14 at the time for her (my wife) depression and thoughts of suicide.

Also, we had a MC offer to mediate handle the assets for is instead of wasting money on attorneys. She refused. Ivalso told her we could take the equity from our other houses and buy her a condo near by since she said she wants and needs to be on her own. She refused that as well. At this point, we have spent more than $35K on attorney's fees when it wasn't even necessary.

If someone who is reading this is not familiar with PAPD, they MIGHT get the wrong idea, but I know she has these issues and it has been mentioned by two different clinicians. She says she has been depressed all her life.


You ask what she would say? She would say everything is my fault because that is what she is saying now. She also says everything on her first marriage was a his fault and has told me stories about him over the past 18 years that I am now finding out are not true and the things he is telling me he did, was actually her.

I am not disparaging my wife. She is often, (but not always)difficult to deal with. I have an unconditional love for her and want my family back together.

It is easy to misunderstand someone's tone and story in a forum and I am sure I could have made things a little more clear and less jumbled.My main reason for coming on here was for advice and to see if anyone had similar stories and were able to save their marriages.

I have told her repeatedly that we can work on counseling individually and together and we can help each other with our issues and communication between us but she refuses and has always refused.

Like I mentioned earlier, others have said "you can do better", but I live my wife and want to help her and save the family.

Any advice from anyone would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by Cadet; 09/14/15 07:38 PM. Reason: fix quotes

Me 52
ExW 45
D1 26
S1 22
S2 18
D2 17

M-17
T-18

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Originally Posted By: Clay234
She has all the traits of someone with Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder (PAPD)and also has a an unhealthy co-dependent relationship with her parents. She has left me three times during our marriage and always runs to them. They blame me for everything that happens and deny that their daughter has any mental health issues. This is her second marriage.

To my knowledge, she has not been officially diagnosed with PAPD and the therapist she is seeing says it is not an issue, but I have lived with her for nearly two decades and I am absolutely sure.

Do you think YOU can FIX her?

Why were you attracted to someone like this in the first place?

It sounds like she didn't learn anything from her first marriage breakup and is repeating what she already knows how to do.

What can you do differently?


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Originally Posted By: Azzork

Thats a long post that essentially is blaming her entirely for the downfall of your marriage. I am interested to know the other side. I think everyone here is a lot more interested in helping you than in helping her. I am worried that you are so focused on diagnosing her problems and suggesting you can fix her than on looking inward and figuring out your own problems.

What did you contribute?
What would SHE SAY that you contributed (whether you think so or not)


I think you might have missed a few things in my post.
Im not sure I did. But I will listen...

As mentioned, this is her second marriage and her ex husband says that she did the same things with him (compulsive lying, hiding money, manipulating, temper tantrums). I also mentioned that I have apologized for many things even though they were not my fault. Of course some things were, but not everything. She NEVER apologizes and always plays the victim.
OK. These are problems of hers...

I understand that no one is perfect, but I have done everything I can to be a good husband. I would never cheat on her, don't drink, smoke, do drugs or gamble and would never raise a hand toward her, our her in danger or verbally abuse her. ( AND THAT IS NOT IMPLYING I AM PERFECT). Of course I have flaws. We all do.
OK. In your eyes, you were a great H. Got it.

I have tried several times to get her to commit to MC, but she will not try. She is never content with anything and always wants something new or different.
Unfortunately, theres not a lot of benefit to MC to get someone to recommit to the MR. The MC is really focused on trying to improve the marriage. So, I think even if you did get her to go, it would not do what you hope.

As mentioned, her parents have interfered many times and have actually showed up at our house because she had called them when she was having a "panic attack" while we were having an argument.. If she doesn't get what she wants, she either pouts or gets angry.
OK...more of her problems

As mentioned above, her son moved back in with me because he was tired of being manipulated by her. She blamed My oldest daughter, who was 14 at the time for her (my wife) depression and thoughts of suicide.
Yep. Her again.

Also, we had a MC offer to mediate handle the assets for is instead of wasting money on attorneys. She refused. Ivalso told her we could take the equity from our other houses and buy her a condo near by since she said she wants and needs to be on her own. She refused that as well. At this point, we have spent more than $35K on attorney's fees when it wasn't even necessary.
Now you are trying to SOLVE her problems.

If someone who is reading this is not familiar with PAPD, they MIGHT get the wrong idea, but I know she has these issues and it has been mentioned by two different clinicians. She says she has been depressed all her life.
Her again

You ask what she would say? She would say everything is my fault because that is what she is saying now. She also says everything on her first marriage was a his fault and has told me stories about him over the past 18 years that I am now finding out are not true and the things he is telling me he did, was actually her.
Her again

I am not disparaging my wife. She is often, (but not always)difficult to deal with. I have an unconditional love for her and want my family back together.
Her again. Also, you love her.

It is easy to misunderstand someone's tone and story in a forum and I am sure I could have made things a little more clear and less jumbled.My main reason for coming on here was for advice and to see if anyone had similar stories and were able to save their marriages.
Nope. I thought it was well written. Im pretty sure I understand.

I have told her repeatedly that we can work on counseling individually and together and we can help each other with our issues and communication between us but she refuses and has always refused.
Trying to solve her problems again.

Like I mentioned earlier, others have said "you can do better", but I live my wife and want to help her and save the family.

Any advice from anyone would be greatly appreciated.


OK. Reading through my comments above, you probably think Im a complete jerk. Im NOT trying to do that. I just wanted to show you what you wrote and what I took from it. And Im not your wife....imagine what SHE would take from it.

Heres the thing, there is nothing you can do to change her. If she will do anything to divorce you, theres not a single thing you can do. Its not like youre going to chain her up in your basement, right?

So, what can you do? You can work on you! Shes not going to come back to the same relationship she had. So, if in a year, she wakes up and realizes what she lost, she isnt going to come back if you are the same person that you were and she would be in the same relationship she was in. So, you need to grow. You need to learn from the mistakes you made and change them. So, I was asking about you so that we could understand what mistakes you made that led to this point so that we can get to work on fixing them!

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To be a little more clear, her initial reason for leaving a year ago was because she says I am angry all the time. I have gotten angry at some of the things she has done and sometimes gotten angrier at her and the kids than I should have. Nobody is blameless in a marriage and I am no exception. Putting things in perspective, I now realize now that I got more upset at things that now I see as no big deal, but I have also been told that it wouldn't have mattered because she is never satisfied.

I have been told by one of the psychologists/MC who saw us, that they (PAs and Borderlines) don't know they are doing some of the things they are doing. That is really hard to understand when someone is standing in front of you making you doubt what you know is a fact and lying about things he/she doesn't need to lie about.

If I had understood these things before, I MIGHT have been able to take a different approach to how I handled things.


Me 52
ExW 45
D1 26
S1 22
S2 18
D2 17

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Well in that case, you have something you can work on. In the meantime, Azz is right. You'll never change her behavior or actions. Nothing will stop her from leaving or divorcing you if that's what she wants to do. It sounds like she would need a great deal of professional help before returning to a relationship. If she will not seek help and accept responsibility for her actions, you don't want someone like that. Take care and hang in there.


Me:29 W:27
M: 4 years T: 5 years
No children
S: 7/7/15
EA: 7/7/15
BD/"I'm done": 7/15/15
MC: 7/7/15-8/21/15 (failed)
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I think that at the moment you should focus on you and see what you could change to become a better Clay. From what you told us it seems that she has few issues but at the end of the day she is 43, and if she thinks she is depressed only her can make the first step. It has to come from her, as if someone pushes it on her she'll blame that person, and there will be no result because she'd have gone again her will.

Think about what you'd like to become and be strong for your kids. Unfortunately we can't chose our in-laws :-)

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Clay,
I left my response to your postings over on the MLC Forum.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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