Feet on the ground, head in the sky

[HaWho]

New thread.

Here is the link to the old:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2590521&page=11

And my last post:

Sotto and Job-thank you. You are right. You nailed it. More detaching. I did it Friday and Saturday but couldn't today.

Meanwhile one other issue I have is with MIL. She has some inkling that something is off. She was sniffing that something was wrong w/H as he fell off the planet with his FOI. She kept asking me and I kept saying everything is fine. But in May she confirmed something was off w/H by calling him and asking something and then calling me minutes later and receiving a different answer.

She confronts me saying she knows H is off and asks what is going on with him. I give a little info-that he is in a funk and working through it.

Her answer is horrifying. She tells me he was born angry and that I should pack my bags and leave him. I spent months reeling from that. She is the root of 99% of this. She has learned nothing. She owns none of it and her comment was an insult.

Had she said nothing or "I am so sorry you are going through this" I would have given her a pass. But I know the kinds of things she did and H was not born this way.

She dropped out of my solar system (another blow as she always checked in with me) and texted me once a month, maybe. Always: how are the kids? Me: Fine! How are you?

Never a question about H. This gave me more compassion for H.

Last week she texts that she has not talked to me in a while and asks me to call her sometime. And here is where the struggle is. She will ask how H is. And I want to tell her politely that H is working through childhood issues. I want to do this to cue her that H was not born angry. He was an emotional and physical target in his own own home while still in diapers.

I know this will not solve a thing. But by saying nothing I feel like I am agreeing that H was just born this way. To what end though? To punish an old woman for something she did 45 years ago? But then I feel I am not defending my H. I feel like I paint this guy as just struggling along for no reason and that's not fair or honest either.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, you sound a little like 'go between' with H and MIL. I think this is for them both (and not anyone else) to resolve. Being in the middle and trying to navigate these tricky waters sounds a bit 'fixerish' to me.

If your MIL asks you how he's doing...could you say - He's doing fine - I'm sure he'd love to tell you himself. I'll let him know you asked. And if she pushes, tell her she'll need to ask him Qs like that herself.

Equally, if your H wants to speak to her about his difficult childhood, I'm sure he will. Their R is theirs to own IMHO. You only own your own R with each of them both.

JMHO HaWho (think you're doing great by the way.....I enjoy reading your thread :))

[HaWho]

Thanks Job, Sotto and AJ-for the advice and as always the support. You guys are awesome!

Still working through what to do about MIL if, when I talk to her she asks about H. Balancing making sure I do not try to fix it (thanks Sotto), but have H's back (thanks AJ) and also feel good about myself here. It feels pretty lousy to hear her say he was born angry. I don't believe it as his wife nor as a mother myself. Staying silent makes me feel like I am giving her a secret nod of agreement.

In other news, I spent the last few days trying to figure out what sent me spinning like a top. Friday and Saturday H was cycling and I was able to detach. Sunday I was not. Still evaluating why. I know Job is right. I see it.

Right now, I don't know how to stop the feeling when it starts. So I started to think, maybe for now I don't focus on stopping the feeling but just work on not showing it so fully to H and in my overall demeanor? Then maybe once I am not wearing my emotions on my sleeve I can start to work on stopping it all as it is starting? Not sure here.

Later that day we texted. I think we were both feeling each other out. H told me he was a good guy for getting a lot of work done as though justifying leaving me ASAP to return home. I validated and told him he was a good guy even when he wasn't working. He sent back smiley faces. That evening I pulled it together and resumed showing a PMA, patience and all that. Still felt some spinning but was able to keep it closer to my vest. Evening ended well all things considered. Interesting that after drifting we drew closer together. That is a 180 for us. Was he testing my changes?

This is kind of ironic. The day after crazy spinning, as I am coming home from work, H texts me that he bought me a gift! This is definitely one of his key ways of showing affection. This will be the first gift he has bought me without a "reason" (not a holiday or a birthday) in many years! Oh, please don't let it be light bulbs or a Swiffer. Please, please, please . . .

I come in and you are not going to believe the irony of this one. It is a beautiful night light . . . A LIGHTHOUSE night light!!! He is going away this weekend with his good friend (woo hoo!) and he told me that when I get frustrated being all by myself to look at the lighthouse and think of him. He had that old glimmer in his eyes-not the dead depressed eyes. I kissed him on the cheek, validated and told him I will be lighting his way home for him.

[HaWho]

H has left for his weekend away with old pre-MLC friend!

Lots of differences in actions compared to April trip he took with MLC "friend." NC at all then. He called kids phone or texted kids only and not always as promised. Who was this man?!? When my sons were talking to him on speaker phone, at the end of their conversation, one son asked if H wanted to talk to me. H's answer: nah, I am all set.

And that about sums up what life what like then.

This time, day before his trip H texted that he will miss the 3 of us. H again worried about our safety: told us to lock doors, windows, etc. He called me-did not text-when he landed. He had excitement in his voice. This reconnection with "old" friend is SO good for him.

Hours later I received a photo of them via text. I know what that was: H showing me he really was with friend. I validate.

H called to say goodnight to all of us-like he used to do. The next morning he called but I missed it; I was not within ear shot of the phone. He called son's phone and I heard his first words: "is your mom okay? Where is she?" Seems a bit paranoid. But he has been having a lot of nightmares lately. I think he may be working though issues even in his dreams. Many of the settings of the dreams are his childhood home. The other night, in a dream, he explored every nook and cranny of his childhood home. He could remember wallpaper, what was in x drawer, etc. So very powerful is the mind.

Meanwhile I have a welcome respite. Lots of time to think. H texted that he has not seen this friend in 15 months! This caused me to go back and really try to figure out when this all started . . .

H bought a convertible about 3 yrs. ago. I joked that he was starting a MLC and car was better than a mistress. It seemed so funny then. Not so funny now, as I think he did start to purchase toys and that MLC was actually taking place then. I was so naive. It was all so slow and subtle.

Like we all know it started with a general irritability. Then he was always critical of me. Everything bothered him. I entered my D then. My sister's son was about 6 months and it was becoming too hard to pretend that something was not very, very off with him.

I lived in denial of all around me for a very long time. I ignored issues with H; he was angry a lot. I drifted into some sort of fog and I buried reality of everything going on with H, nephew and sister.

Those were horrible years. Months and month of testing nephew. Eliminating what it was, which initially was a relief! It's not x, y or z. He is constantly tested, poked and prodded. Poor little guy! But with time it becomes clearer and clearer that it is something and if they are eliminating the more common possibilities it is time to start looking for rarer possibilities. Then he is assigned a rare disorder geneticist.

I have so much guilt in those years. Why her? Why are my kids given so much and hers so little? What kind of a life is this for her, for him? What about their marriage? Lots of dreams where nephew if fine; so real that I wake up not knowing which is the dream and which is real?

I am lost in all this. Working through all the stages without even knowing it. H is knee deep in anger/replay. Fall 2014, I have worked through it all. I have closed doors, have accepted situation with nephew and when I think about him I can only go back so far. I cannot cry nonstop anymore or get angry. Not can I deny gravity of it all. And yet I come out the other side of this!

Then as I begin to get my footing, BD # 1!! And I enter a whole new world I never knew existed . . .

[HaWho]

I had a feeling that H was staying on an extra day without his friend.

Today he called in the am to say hello. I asked his plans and he tells me friend has left already (mid morning). H tells me his plans for the day.

When H asks what I am doing today, I lay out the plans with kids. He says "well sounds like you have everything under control." Ends conversation calling me endearing nickname.

Then I have feelings I don't like. It makes me sad that my H stayed on by himself while well adjusted friend flew home to his family. It is a reminder that my H is broken. My mind wanders to: I wonder what he will do all by himself tonight? Will he be all by himself?

Then the statement "you seem to have everything under control" really crawled up and all over my skin. I feel resentment surface. I do feel used.

I am trying hard to process emotions. Rationally I know he is in MLC and cannot really even take care of himself.

As for my sadness over H being broken I think it was made more painful, because I know this friend of his. At one point they were both "healthy" guys. I don't know if somewhere deep down I hoped that time with this friend would straighten H's path. I know that cannot be. I know he has to do this himself and only if he chooses/has the clarity to do it.

Comment about me having everything under control bothers me for 2 reasons. First, I do feel used. H needs all this time to cope with MLC and I just cover everything with kids. Again, it is the reality of standing with an MLCer.

But also, this comment bothered me because it reminded me of childhood. Very old feelings surfaced. I hate that feeling.

[AJM]

Expectations. They are a b*tch, yeah?

As for my sadness over H being broken I think it was made more painful, because I know this friend of his. At one point they were both "healthy" guys. I don't know if somewhere deep down I hoped that time with this friend would straighten H's path. I know that cannot be. I know he has to do this himself and only if he chooses/has the clarity to do it.

Comment about me having everything under control bothers me for 2 reasons. First, I do feel used. H needs all this time to cope with MLC and I just cover everything with kids. Again, it is the reality of standing with an MLCer.

I would have thought you'd have expectations that friend would say something magical and your H would come bouncing back to reality. It'd be strange if you didn't, HW. Seriously. 7 1/2 years on, I sometimes have those thoughts. Not rational nor realistic, but there nonetheless. To be honest, it's not a problem nor "wrong" to feel that way. But in the end, you and I both know that it won't happen like that for you What's far more likely is that like it came on, it'll leave slowly. What remains is to be seen, but he seems to be heading in that direction. He wouldn't ask nor care about the kids if not, nor would he care what you were doing. I know that's small consolation compared to what you want, but it is what it is at this point. Just keep perspective and know that feelings are what they are and neither "good" nor "bad" per se. You are at least, "normal" in your feelings

But also, this comment bothered me because it reminded me of childhood. Very old feelings surfaced. I hate that feeling.

This caught my attention. Can you share some more about that?

AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJ-you are right. I do know it won't happen that way. H does seem to be creeping in the right direction and I need to stay patient.

As for H's comment that I had everything under control, my mother was severely depressed her whole adult life. She didn't want to take meds because of course, she did not believe she was depressed.

I was the youngest and the only one of my siblings who lived alone with her. We all became fixers but those years alone with her really forced me into this situation to take care of things, including her, at a crazy young age. I held a lot of other things together in that house. We all became adept fixers and givers pretty fast.

Now, here I am with a guy who is in this deep depression who can't be a partner to me right now. I am right back to being the one to have everything under control. And that comment made me feel like I have come full circle--that I am right back where I started! Even though I worked so hard to get out of that situation. And, even creepier, it made me feel like I married my own mother!

[HaWho]

A few updates and a question I am hoping someone can answer.

H returned from weekend with pre-MLC friend. Before he returned he asked if I wanted to have lunch the following day. I said yes, but said if he decided he was too tired, then it was no problem for him to change his mind. He has been very tired lately and I really feel better when I communicate to him that he can change his mind. Maybe I am trying to take pressure off him but really protecting myself against potential rejection?

Anyway H lands and texts me the time and restaurant with a question mark. I say: sure see you there. He answers: we're not driving together? Me: oh we can drive together. (This is first time I NATURALLY had no expectations. So many times I have expected us to drive together and then in the 11th hour H drives on his own and I am injured. Now I am learning to always plan to go on my own.)

Today we are texting a bit. He says he is around the corner from home. I tell him I will be leaving soon for a walk w/dog. He says, if I wait he can join me. So I do.

Seems to be a peek out week. He reminds me of Rip Van Winkle in these moments.

As for question I have, I have been reading through lots of threads on here. It seems in so many situations, people's marriages were pretty good pre BD. I feel like my situation is different because pre-BD there was distancing that took place due to my depression. As mentioned before I did odd things and a bit of nasty monstering, too. Oi!

But I guess my question is, should I be reaching out a little more on peek out moments given my prior distancing in my own depression? As mentioned before, this was an issue in our M and H tried to reason with me when I was in my fog. If he seems to be creeping forward and has a peekout, should I still just follow his lead for the most part or should I initiate a bit? Or is this still a no-no despite prior depression/distancing issue?

[job]

If things are working well right now, then don't change anything. By allowing him to make decisions, i.e., changing plans, etc., this gives him the "control" he seeks over his life.

I think you are doing well at the moment. If you reach out too much, he'll scurry right back into himself and distance himself. Continue to drop the crumbs of friendship and allow him to come to gobble them up, hence he'll come to you.

Continue to keep to keep the expectations at zero.

[HaWho]

I've been a little down this weekend. Just thinking about it all can get you down.

Heading into the weekend H made a joke about how he is the same weight as always but the weight is distributed differently (more in his stomach). He was in good humor about this. He used to take more jabs at himself but in MLC aging has hit him hard. Usually, I reassure him on how great he looks, which he does.

This time I didn't say a word. It is true, the distribution of his weight is changing and I don't think I am doing either one of us any favors by denying it. Plus, I am SO over conversations about aging! (He has come a long way though as months ago he talked incessantly about how attractive he was and that he "just knew" there were soon many women who wanted him. Have to love that MLC vanity.)

H used to be an on time person. Last night he went out for a walk said he'd be back at x time. 40 mins. after time he said he would be home, he is not back. I text him and say I am eating with kids as they are hungry. Minutes later he says he is on his way back. 10 minutes from then kids start to bicker and I decide to take them out. Plus, in all honesty, it does not sit well with me that I am sitting around "waiting" for him. I text him we are leaving.

He texts back a joke that I am misbehaving. I text him that kids were antsy and I was tired of waiting around for him. I also say as he did not text he was running late I did not know what time he would return. He texts that it takes time for him to get back and he was only 20 minutes late. His math is off but I don't answer. Plus, he certainly could have texted he was running late.

When we meet up later at home, I know he is mad. He tries to joke it off. I do a 180 and ask him if he wants to talk about it as he seems upset. He says he thinks I was pouting. I say maybe that's right. Kids were bored, he was on his own clock and it did not sit well with me to sit waiting for him with hungry kids who were starting to bicker.

I know, expectations at zero but that doesn't mean I have to wait around. (Need to not make it seem pouty though.)

Things were a little awkward in the AM. I feel good about it though. I was polite and calm but not a doormat. He can be late but that does not mean I have to wait around. In the past, I would not remain calm and then rather than discussing the primary issue at hand, things were deflected onto me. I know that by not over-reacting I was able to keep the spotlight where it needed to be.

[job]

HaWho,
Do not wait on him! Advise him what time dinner will be on the table and if he's not there...eat! My xh use to do that all of the time and he soon learned just how tasty cold food was! He also had a habit of when we had to go out and be somewhere at a certain time, he would run in the bathroom and sit on the toilet. Guess what! That got old real quick and I would leave him sitting there. He did this all of the time, no joke! Do not make any excuses for not waiting for him to get back. He's a big boy and knows that you and the kids were waiting.

The joke about you misbehaving wasn't much of a joke. He was making a point. So, you and the kids were to wait for his highness to return 20 minutes late and the food to get cold? No way. Yes, he was a bit hot about you not waiting and trust me, the text was all about PA behavior.

Try to tune him out when he talks about his weight. He's trying to get your attention and wants you to say he's looking good at his age. Get him a nice full length mirror and let him preen all day to his heart's content. Better yet, purchase some small undies, but be sure to cut the tags out so that he can't tell the sizes. Let him think he's gained more weight and it's not being distributed in the places he says it is. LOL! I could have some fun w/this one.

Next time, don't text and ask him where he's at or how long he'll be. He knows what needs to be done and when. Just get up and go or sit down and eat. He's a big boy and can take care of himself.

[HaWho]

Hi Job- I will not wait for him and I think he knows it now. It felt great to just get up and go. There was a LOT of PA behavior though. He was texting s12 asking where we were going! Then sending me texts "joking" I was acting like a punk! I need to do a better job of ignoring it internally. Externally I did. But I have much work to do here on the inside. I am glad I was able to be logical so that we did not discuss my reaction vs. the issue.

Sitting back I definitely see this pattern that whenever he is called out he tries to get a reaction from me so that he can deflect onto me. Really watching it last night I see he is quite skilled at it. After I saw what he was doing I hit him with a truth dart and he actually acknowledged that he needed to do better.

And I LOVE your ideas of messing with his weight re-distribution. I need to do something because I am going out of my mind with boredom with his obsession over aging. I have fantasies about getting him a Ken doll, leaving it on his desk with a note telling him I finally found his twin. (Except at times, Ken seems like a deeper soul.) Maybe a stocking stuffer idea...

He looks good but, trust me, but I don't need to carry around smelling salts for all the women who swoon when they see him.

MLC obsession with aging is BRUTAL!

[job]

You can have some fun thinking about doing things to him. You could always purchase some magazines that have some hunks on the cover and leave they lying around.

BTW, has he changed the type of undies he's wearing? Some of them do that. Maybe a Christmas get some thongs and put them in his stocking, but get a size smaller. LOL!

Yes, they obsess about aging.

[mleigh4]

You guys got me giggling about the underwear thing.

Hawho, my H is also very PA. Once I learned about it, it really opened my eyes. He too is very skilled at it. Somehow, he changes the focus onto my reaction, and what a big deal I was making, instead of the issue at hand. It's a true head game. But once I was able to recognize this, I have been able to control my own reactions which in turn forces him to face the real issue.

If you haven't done so already, you might want to read up on PA. I got a great book that explains how they may have come to be that way, what to watch for and how to live with it. It helped my self esteem in a huge way because dealing with a PA person can really start making you think you are a horrible mean person!

In my H situation, his mother is an extreme PA person, so he was raised by that logic.

[HaWho]

Hi MLeigh-I do think I need to read up more on how to deal with PA behavior. I could use some help with it all. So, I would love the name of the book. Thx!

Job- no H has not changed undie styles. He doesn't have time to shop for them between weighing himself, making anti-aging smoothies and counting his new gray hairs! I am sure they are somewhere on his MLC bucket list though. Lol! Have to laugh or I would cry!!

[HaWho]

Posting this for those interested in MLC behaviors:

Recently H has had 4 doomsday nightmares in a week and a half. These are end of the world like dreams. H was very shaken by most recent one, a flood.

He worried that these were prophetic as there have been so many in a short time; seems to be a tad paranoid. I went out on a limb and told him I thought they were not prophetic but maybe his mind trying to come to terms with mortality. His eyes flashed child-like and he seemed very reassured. He really did remind me of a kid who had a nightmare.

For some reason after I reassured him, I suddenly realized that he has always been repulsed and scared by the aging process--even in his 20's. I think his fear of aging and death has been bubbling in his mind for a long time. I note this as maybe this too is a trigger for MLC in conjunction with a troubled childhood and poor coping skills?

[kml]

Yes, fear of death or dying is a very common trigger for MLC. If you can convince yourself you're young and not going to die, by dating much younger, dressing younger, or distracting yourself with toys like sports cars.

[BrightFuture]

Maybe a Christmas get some thongs and put them in his stocking, but get a size smaller. LOL!

Job, you got me laughing! I think this is a great idea HaWho!

BTW, my H said at BD that he has about 10-15 years to live. Then at some point it got reduced to 5 to 10. I’m patiently waiting to take over the vacation home, LOL.

[job]

They have a fear of mortality and death is at the top of the list. They fear that they won't get a chance to do everything that they want to do before dying. Also, they have a difficult time sleeping at night because of this fear, as well as guilt speaking to them in the quiet moments of night.

[HaWho]

I knew the MLCer has fear of aging/death when he/she is approaching midlife. It just didn't occur to me that this fear could have existed for decades.

I am reading through lots of old threads and many spouses note that pre MLC the person is crisis readily snipped people out of his/her life. Then, of course in crisis they go and do it the spouse who saw them do it to to others and yet never believed it would happen to them. I guess this coincides with poor coping skills.

Job- if you read this, can you please clarify what you mean by "guilt" speaking to them in the night. Is this guilt over how they are behaving/treating people or some other guilt?

Anyway- today was a really rough day for me. Lots of anger and sadness. I just kept remembering a lot of the horrible things my H has said to me post BD.

It's strange, some of the comments I disregarded, knowing full well they were emotional crisis comments. Whereas, some of them have hit me very hard. Today I realized that the ones I cannot shake do have an element of truth. The comments were really nasty and all varied on pointing out all the physical ways I am aging. Which I am!

[mleigh4]

Sorry Hawho, I never got back to you with that book name. It's called Living with the Passive Aggresive Man.

I too believe the fear of looming death plays a big part. My SIL almost died from Sepsis several months before Bday. My H, in typical fashion, was very low key and detached about it, but I think it effected him much more than I realised.

Were there any deaths or illnesses near your H Bday?

[job]

To clarify the term I used "guilt". Guilt and shame come calling when it's bed time, when the house is quiet and there is nothing to distract them. It is guilt and shame for what they are doing now, not the past. It is guilt for what they have said to you, family and co-workers, because deep down, they do know that something is wrong.

They also have the fear of death. They fear that if they go to sleep, they may not wake up to see the sun come up the next day.

Keep in mind, while in MLC, the "wires" in their brains are scrambled and their thought processes are running a mile a minute, bouncing from one subject to the next. Think about it, when you have something on your mind that's pressing, do you think about it whey you are trying to go to sleep? It's the same thing for them...but more intense because they have absolutely nothing to distract them from the things that they are avoiding/running from.

[HaWho]

It's been a bit since I posted. Things are slow going and yet not.

I am staying quiet over here and learning/seeing a lot. Distance has shown me that I have become too emotional/reactive in my life. I never used to be this way. I am working very hard at changing this about myself. I feel better and more confident. I also continue to have increased energy/alertness from coming out of my own depression.

H had a very quiet weekend. He put on comfy clothes and said he was going to relax. He looks horrible: run down and haggard. He kept saying he was not sure why he felt so unwell. (Might have something to do with the fact that he lives every moment like the Grim Reaper is after him.)

Days after I realized H has always been afraid of dying, he re-told a very telling chdhood story. I had heard it before but this time it revealed so much because I was hearing it knowing he is in MLC.

When he was around 3-4 years old he became very sick. He kept telling his mother that something was wrong and he needed to go to a doctor. His mother disregarded him and did not bring him. He continued to get sicker. One day a friend of his mother's was over and she said something was wrong and he needed a doctor. MIL again disregarded. Friend came over again and this time she would not leave until H was brought to a Dr.

He was admitted for quite some time and he was in fact gravely ill. He knew he was dying and though visitors came and went, he remembers being alone much of it.

How awful, all around: that he was not listened to, that he was left alone a lot, etc. I am guessing this is a place where he was stunted and for sure, this must be where his obsessive fear of dying was born. He remembers he never felt close to his mother again.

One of my son's has a rash and I took him to the doctor weeks ago. Dr. advised give it time and use x cream. Last week H decided rash was no better and made appt. w/dermatologist. Used same words mother's friend used about his grave childhood illness : something is wrong, this has gone on long enough, he needs to see a doctor.

This is the first time my H has ever initiated taking kid to doctor's appt. When he returned he seemed very surprised that specialist gave same advice as other doctor. He seemed to believe it was something serious. I have seen so many rashes come and go (including scarlet fever in one of my son's!) that I knew this was a run of the mill rash. Days later he re-told story of how he nearly died.

[AJM]

Hi HW. Glad to see you posting.

Sounds like the listening and detachment is really helpful to you. Sounds also like you are coming out of the initial shock and depression. I'm very happy to hear that.

AJ

[mleigh4]

What a sad story about your H, breaks my heart. I hope talking about it helps him. Has he ever had IC?

[HaWho]

Thanks AJM. I think I have been quiet because I am rounding the corner to my 1 year BD anniversary. I cannot believe it. Mostly I cannot believe I survived all that.

Mleigh-no sadly he has never had IC. I do listen but a lot of these issues are way above my pay grade. I have of course recommended that he talk to someone but he insists he does not need help.

[AJM]

Yeah, it's hard to believe. And yeah, it's above your paygrade but not. Listening is the single most valuable skill I've seen on these boards. You, as much as anyone here, know how important being heard is to a person.

But it would be great if he would eventually see this as, "yeah, I'm sick. I need a doctor." Just be careful what you wish for. He may get help from one or he may get worse. In the end, he needs to do this. Your choice is whether or not you are still there and whether or not you still listen.

AJ

[HaWho]

Uh-oh.

Yesterday H and I were texting. Everything was fine. He asked me to grab something from the store on my way home. I said sure. He asked when I would be home and I made a joke telling him that the person we gave life to needed to be picked up. He jabbed back that my body did a hell of a job that day.

It struck a nerve with me. As I have mentioned H said some very cruel things about physical differences pre vs. post children. Many of them were quite crass. Very, very painful stuff. I am still fit, thin, etc. But, yes, changes take place when you birth children. Enough said on that. Just trying to give you a sense of the level of conversation I am discussing here.

I said if I had known what he would have said about it all/knowing what I know now I would have hired a surrogate and outsourced all that. H needed clarification on what I was talking about. I clarified to jog his memory. He said he thought I was ok with comments. I said, I am sure you did think that. (Because at the time I just listened and accepted what he said and brushed it all under the rug as best I could. I was quite shocked by it all.)

Then he wrote he is sorry he wrote it. But he became distant all over again. I acted as if. He slept downstairs last night, back to door closed.

Today I again acted as if. Gave him space. He cracked a joke in the afternoon but is definitely distant. Sleeping downstairs again tonight.

I went down to say goodnight. I asked if he wanted to talk about things. He said if so, not tonight. I said: so you're back to being down here. He said he is not sure. I said I didn't think this situation needed to be more than it was. He said maybe.

I really wish I had been able to zip it and shelve this conversation. It feels like all my patience of these last few months was just wiped away in a flash.

For a moment there I forgot who/what I was dealing with. This is so hard. I think I have scared him back further into the tunnel. Of course if this sent him back there then clearly he has things to work out there. If he were stronger then he would be able to face this without running and hiding, right?

Advice?

Job - did I directly cause this?

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, I took what he said as a compliment! That he thought your body did a great job producing such a fabulous person that day. I can see the history that you post may have made you sensitive to comments about your body linked to childbirth, but I didn't see that as a negative comment from him.

I'm sorry if the turn of events has led to him being back downstairs. I'm not sure what the best approach is and will leave someone more experienced to comment on that. I think you would need to talk at some point about his crass comments and their impact on you. I also brushed some things under the rug and at some point that rug needs to be flipped over and that dust vacuumed up. However, he may not be at a point where you guys can air things like that productively.

I'm sending hugs and best wishes to you though....this too shall pass. It is never all plain sailing - there are always a few rocks underwater.

Take care xx

[HaWho]

Hi Sotto- maybe I misread the comment.

It is all now such an uncomfortable topic for me. I also know that MLcers go through that phase where they are disgusted by their spouses. Maybe that had a part in his crass comments.

I think I am allowed to feel the pain though. There is an element of truth to it all. I think I hoped having kids would bond us closer to each other not warrant disparaging comments about unavoidable effects of labor.

I just feel like this is so superficial. But, this was not the time to bring it up...

[claire7]

HaWho,
My stbx is also someone who makes sarcastic mean comments. (Just like my dad). I've realized now that being sensitive about it fueled his contempt for me. He saw me as weak and needy. On the other hand, there are plenty of men who do not speak to their spouses with disrespect and contempt. And I think that if I had had more self-esteem when I met him, I never would have married someone who spoke to me that way. I kept wanting him to change... but I realize now it's about him and his own insecurity and self-hatred. I mean, would a healthy secure person speak to a spouse with such contempt?

I don't know if this resembles your sitch at all, but just wanted to give you my perspective on the "mean H/sensitive W" dynamic that I experienced. I don't miss that part of my M at all.

Hang in there.

[job]

Mlcers can be down right mean and insensitive at times. Their empathy chip is broken. Many times what they are thinking just pops out of their mouths.

He's lashing out and quite frankly they all project on to us many times over. They say means things to make us back up and leave them alone. If he's sleeping in the basement, don't go down there and wish him a good night. Leave the man/child to his cave and allow him to sulk. He's acting out just like a two year old who is teething.

You will see a lot of this "mean" behavior throughout the crisis and you will need to develop a thick skin. The best thing to do is detach a bit more. When he's being mean, walk away. You do not need to stand/sit there and take that BS. You had children and your body did change a bit in order to carry and deliver them. You don't own him any explanation for the way your body has changed. Be proud of what you've accomplished and the children that you brought into the world.

Your h is a broken man and he's just mad at himself, you, the relationship and the world right now. He would be made at the goose who laid golden eggs too. So, leave that cry baby downstairs and leave your life to the fullest. When he sees that he can't bait you into an argument or rattle your cage, he very well may stop the nonsense...but I will caution you on this...if he can't provoke you into an argument being mean, he very well may try to be nice and then slam dunk you. So, keep your cool, keep your voice calm and when he starts in on you, walk away.

[job]

No you didn't cause him to run back into the tunnel. He never let it. He may have moments of clarity, but he's still in the mlc tunnel.

He's PA and to punish you, he's back in the basement. Leave him to sulk down there and don't worry about it. When he sees that you aren't going to bend over backwards to placate him, he'll come back upstairs and pretend everything is A-Okay.

At some point, a conversation will need to take place about his comments, but he's not in a place that you can do that right now. But, you will know when the door has opened to have that discussion.

For now, leave him to sulk and you keep the focus on you.

[HaWho]

Thanks Claire7 for your words of advice.

Job and Georgiabelle- months ago you two told me when H came to me to work on the R, that he just wanted me to fix him. I realize you gals were spot on. That letter was a lot of nasty stuff about stuff I should be doing to make "us" work. Then he asked what I needed from him (wanted me to fix him).

Now here is the latest via text (the gist):

H: I know you have been working hard on R. I know it seems like I haven't been, but I have. But romantic feelings do not feel as natural or "right" as friend relations do. I like us as deep and close friends, co-parenting under the same roof. Romantic relations are labored for me. You are beautiful/smart and I want to stay together in the same house, even same bedroom/bed. I want to keep our family together. I want us to be happy. I have tried. Can we stay together without anything physical? You have said you don't want another man so you won't be missing anything by keeping us together. I feel guilt because my feelings aren't right for you on that account. It is sister/best friend love. Can we discuss it tonight.

I don't answer for a few hours.

Then this:
H: Just so you know your happiness is important to me. We have spent our whole adult lives together. I hope to continue that.

Me: Thank you for communicating with me. I appreciate it. I need some time to process. Have a nice afternoon!

One minute later:
H: Ok. I am really sorry for upsetting you. I so don't want to.

2 minutes later: (must be spinning):
H: And I do still find you beautiful.

2 minutes later:
H: There are moments where it all comes flooding back. But it doesn't last and the friend thing returns.

Then 6 minutes later:
H: Do you want me to pick up son x?

Me: No thanks!

H: Want me to pick up son y?

Me: No, but thanks!

(He feels guilty and is bending over backwards.)

So, 1 year post BD and it seems he is pretty close to where he started as far as his unhappiness. He has tried all sorts of fixes-replay: running around with friends, staying out of the house, trips away, working a lot, etc. Then I received letter of all I should do to help "make us a success." And he asked what he should do on his end. Months later - says he has tried those things and nothing feels right romantically.

Seems like this should be a point where he turns inward to try to figure out what is wrong.

As for me, I need to detach more. I think this may have been a lonnnng touch-n-go.

Wow-is he broken. My favorite part is where he tells me I won't be missing out on anything in this arrangement!

I can't even begin to think about bedroom situation! I know in my D I was repulsed by H and clung to the edge of the bed. He slept by my side through it all--3 years worth.

[AJM]

HW, do you see what was said there? That he has a deep personal connection, but the romantic feelings are coming and going? That's important and it's a look into his state of mind. It's also important for you to see and process as to where he is right now.

Note what job said about a MLCr and their anger and their processing. He gave you a nugget there. He mentioned he is working on HIM. It's all a point in time.

As for the way you reacted. No, you did nothing wrong. In fact, I would suggest you were honest and that was a good thing. You were honest without being unavailable afterwards. That's even more important.

He's baking, HW but not done.

AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJ - Thank you for the great insight. I did get the sense that in that moment he knew I was not the source of all the problems he is facing. Poor guy is re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

The question is: do I actually say anything about all this? I told him I need time to process. Sometimes he just forgets the details of what he said anyway. Job says he'll just come back to the bedroom like nothing happened once he licks his wounds.

Do I just continue to act as if without categorically saying: yes let's continue on the friendship track? I don't want to add pressure to him w/another conversation but I do want him to know I am still here.

I don't feel for me that I need another conversation about this right now. I can see that he is still baking.

Any advice is welcome, as always!

[job]

You don't have to tell him that you are still there...he knows it. Continue just as you have been doing, i.e., giving him space and time to figure things out. You can be a friend, but don't put pressure on him. If he wants to talk, listen and if he asks for advice, be honest w/him.

You will get an opportunity to have the discussion about his comments from the other night...but not right now. He's not in a good frame of mind to do so.

As for him working on the marriage, I don't see it. They tend to say that they are working on the marriage and yet, they are doing something different. He definitely needs time to work on himself w/o your assistance.

Just leave him be to rearrange the chairs on the Titanic. He is still baking and as long as you are front and center in his attention span, he can't work on himself. Step back a bit, detach and continue on w/your life for now. If he wants to be a part of it, he will make the effort to join in.

[HaWho]

Ok- had a talk with my DB coach. As I have mentioned a lot, that letter H sent me was nasty. Job - I hear you that MLCers are mean. Here is the problem I am facing now:

I read the letter to my DB coach/family counselor. She was speechless. She was completely at a loss for words. Again, I know her specialty is not MLC but she has worked couples through it obviously. Job - you have seen and heard so
much maybe this would not phase you. Maybe you will tell me I need thicker skin.

She told me the letter was verbally and emotionally violent. Her recommendation is that I need to draw a personal boundary for me. She recommends I write a letter back stating my boundary--that it was wrong what he said to me and I will not share a room with him.

She recognizes that he is in crisis and said brain scans show changes on the brain. But she said wrong is still wrong. Her feeling is to set the boundary and see if he apologizes or reacts in a way that shows remorse. (But as his wiring is so off I am not sure this is a realistic expectation.) Her concern is that this message is so sick that it reveals a darkness to the messenger's mind. Even if it is the MLC talking I do not want to share a bed with him at this time. I need space from him.

She said this is not anything she has ever heard in the MLC scripts.

Maybe this too is above her paygrade and this is "normal" for MLC I don't want to share a room with a man who views me as a sister and writes me a letter dissecting my body and telling me all the superficial, horrific things I should be doing to "fix" my body to ensure our marriage has a chance of success.

The problems are in him. I really get that now. It has nothing to do with the stretching my body took in labor.

Maybe he will come out of this. Maybe he won't. I will continue to be kind and act "as if" and listen but I need to put some walls around me.

[HaWho]

Job-I missed your earlier comment.

Please read my last post. My concern with counselor's advice is that he is just lost. It is hard to draw a line between monster spew and verbal abuse. Isn't it all verbal abuse, after all?

After writing the horrific letter he has come back and said I am beautiful so clearly he is just so confused. I just don't believe from living with him day in and day out there is a way to see if he is remorseful. Would it even be meaningful as everything is transient for him.

[kml]

Let me ask you this - does your husband have any OCD symptoms? Tapping checking counting phobias, body dysmorphic disorder?

I ask because my ex had some mild OCD. And while most of it was directed at himself, I got my share of it too. My thighs were too thick (even when I was 5'6" 121 lbs in my 20's! My ribs were sticking out!). I was too X, Y or Z, or not enough A, B or C.

The reality was, I was (and am) a pretty attractive woman who has always gotten my fair share of male approval. It's my ex who has issues with OCD and perfectionism.

I would definitely draw a line at having any kind of plastic surgery to pacify your H. I would also make it clear to him that sexual attraction can wax and wane in a marriage, and that if he is patient it will likely return. (BTW, pretty sure it would return in a hurry if you were dating some other guy! Not recommending it as a strategy, just pointing out that you suddenly become a lot more attractive once they see OTHER men interested in you!)

The real problem is, in his depression and crisis, he's looking for SOMEthing, ANYthing to make him feel better. He's tried a lot of other things already, now he thinks that if he changed you that would do it. It won't. He has to become happy with HIMSELF first.

Definitely don't tolerate any inappropriate speech (seems like he already realizes he crossed a line). Also let him know you don't intend to spend your life in an asexual loveless marriage forever.

[HaWho]

Hi KML - no he doesn't have OCD issues like those.

As for surgeries, I am not interested! It's just not my thing. And certainly not for a man who, these days, has the attention span of a gnat. I can just see it now! I go change everything about myself for him and the second I walk in covered in all my bandages H announces: what have you done? I liked he way you looked! Lol!

KML - Interesting that you advise that I tell him sexual attraction can wax and wane in M. It did not occur to me to do that. Hmmm.

Months ago I told him a few things I experienced in my depression. He related and seemed relieved (even though neither one of us even hinted that he is depressed). One of the things I have thought of telling him is that in my depression I was disgusted by him. I bristled when he hugged me and slept with half of me hanging off the bed - MLC style!!!

I hesitate to tell him this because I don't want to pressure him that I expect he will come out of all of this wanting an R. Maybe that's too much pressure? Or maybe it would reassure him?

There is some forward movement--but ever so slow. A year ago H was reciting the MLC soliloquy-- saying he never loved me! Then he remembered why he married me. So weird how that happened. One day out of the clear blue he announces: I remember why I married you! (It took a lot of restraint not to say: yes, that might be why you look happy in every photo at our wedding!!)

[AJM]

HW, in every relationship there is a sense of what you will or won't accept. MLC or not. I don't know what was in the letter, but it seems to me that he says mean things and then tries to make up for it. Kind of like job mentions: like a two year old.

That doesn't mean you cannot or should not protect yourself and just take it. I can tell you that I stopped taking the abuse about three months after BD. Why? Because I needed to for me. I wasn't angry and I didn't sink to the level of abuse. I decided the boundaries and firmly stuck to them.

Did it make her stop? No. Did it cause her to change her approach? Absolutely. But I will say I chose carefully. I was willing to die on that hill, so to speak. There were few boundaries, but I stuck to them completely. Not angrily, but no give either.

I will caution you that if you pick a boundary, do so with eyes wide open. Dealing with MLC is not a recipe, but rather your life. And not your life in the moment, but overall. You can't predict how he will react to your actions (you may have noticed, right?) What you can do is set and defend your boundaries. Just know that they need to be important and not made in the moment. The boundary is the boundary and that's all there is to it. And it's for you, not him.

Does that make sense?

Relationships are not one-sided. They take two and you've already pretzled yourself once. You know that won't work. But neither will going nuclear else you wouldn't be here. Your side of the relationship is what you control. You are what you control. His reactions and his actions are his to own. Always.

I think you're doing fine, and know you can't rush it. But if you sell yourself out, there won't be anything left for either of you.


Peace,
AJ

[job]

As the other posters have pointed out, you will need to determine what you will accept and what you won't and then set your boundaries. When you set your boundaries, you will need to adhere to them and not waffle. If you waffle, then your h will know that you really didn't mean it and test those boundaries over and over again, just like a two year old will.

When setting your boundaries, you will need to remain calm and look him in the eyes. Letter writing will get you nowhere right now because of his attention span...they can't focus on more than a couple of lines of print. Keep in mind that actions speak louder than words and if you follow thru on your boundaries, he may or may not get the message.

One of the things that I suggest to you is that when he starts trashing you, that you walk away. You could say something like "h, when you calm down, I'll be happy to discuss the matter w/you", then walk away or hang up the phone. These are lessons that you have to figure out when to use.

No one deserves to be trashed constantly and certainly not over the way you look. No one is perfect and he married you for who you are, not your looks (I would think).

Set your boundaries, don't get into heated discussions w/him. The sooner you put the fire out by shutting him down w/walking away or ending the heated conversations, the better for you. You will need to develop a thicker skin as your man/child continues to try to push your buttons along the way and tests any and all boundaries that you may set, i.e., like a two year old or even a teenager.

[HaWho]

Gears are clicking into place for me.

Last two posts from AJ and Job really opened my eyes. Why don't I know what my personal boundaries are? Uh-oh. How can I be 40 and need advice on what boundaries I will accept. How pathetic is that! I need to do that internal work.

As for the letter why do I have so much shame and anger over that letter? HB writes: anger brings forth clarity, allowing one to see. I start to dig about my anger over that letter. And so much is revealed to me about myself, about what I will not accept in my R. It becomes so obvious what my boundary with him needs to be.

I set the boundary last night. I was very calm and felt so peaceful setting it. I was scared to do it at first because I was so afraid he would walk out on me. I am still in fear!

When H gave me that letter I felt such shame and I tried to bury it. But it was there. I pretended I was ok with it to him. I was pretzeling myself again to make him happy instead of doing the work to fix me.

Anyway--back to setting the boundary. H never once looked me in the eyes. I told him I was releasing that letter back to him. I mentioned several of the things about my body that he told me I had to change to make us work. He winced and asked me to stop talking about those things. I calmly told him that if he felt secure writing those things to me, we should be able to discuss them. He monsters a bit and tried to grab the steering wheel. I stayed the course and he says he agrees to the boundary: he is not allowed to tell me what is wrong with my body. It is my body. I tell him that what is important is that I accept my body not that he accepts it.

Later that night he texts me- I missed it as I went to sleep so peacefully last night. I can speak my truth because I already lost my M! To what am I clinging? I can set my boundary for me. He either adjusts course as he processes through MLC or he leaves me. If he leaves I have lost nothing because old marriage is dead and I am not going to have a new M where my H tells me how I need to change my body to make things work! That's just not me!

Ok - back to his text. He tells me I bait and switched him by pretending I was ok w/that letter and with making those physical changes.

I validate. I tell him my first reaction is to please others rather than being true to myself. I apologize for being dishonest with him. I tell him that I want to be accepted for being me and that I am done pretzeling myself. I also divulge that I think deep down he always found me beautiful and smart but not really his body type. And that he pretzeled himself, too. This is why that letter REALLY bothered me. I have felt that tension in our M. He has critiqued me all along. (Shout out to KML for asking the question). I have felt the insecurity all along. I lied to myself about it. You guys probably all think I am a troll by the sounds of it all. But actually people tell me all the time I look like Anne Hathaway. But see, he wants Raquel Welch (when she was young!). And I can't be Raquel Welch without destroying my core completely! Now I have finally released that to him!

Here is what I say: my body will change. Women bear children, they age and their H's still revere them and their bodies. I accept that I will age and that I want to look good but age true to myself (I think, but don't say: Anne Hathaway not Raquel Welch). But I think deep down I was never your body type. There was a connection between us but you wanted a different body. Also, you wanted a less brainy woman. (I called him out on that, too.) In the letter he says he wishes I were less intelligent and more sexy (Raquel Welch). The "problem" is I am very well educated--having studied at one of the best colleges in the world. I am proud of that. I worked very hard, out of poverty to get there. I put myself through school! It's so much a part of who I am! No pretzeling on that!!!

He texts back and seems to think I am picking a fight with him. Poor H. He is so behind me on the internal work. All the knowledge that has come from doing this internal work on setting this boundary makes me like a person from the future while, internal work-wise, he is still like an amoeba!

I tell him I am not trying to fight with him but just to tell him my truth. That I am done feeling bad for not being his dream body type. That I finally accept me and I don't care what he thinks!

He texts that he is done discussing this "nonsense" with me. That we can discuss the kids only--only surface conversations from now on.

He is going NC on me! Too funny!

Wow- so much released in setting that boundary and it is true to me. Job - I saw a true glimpse of letting go! I proudly can die on that hill AJ!!!

And if he leaves I get that I have lost nothing but gained myself and the chance to meet/bond with someone who wants me as I am.

[claire7]

HaWho,

He actually gave you a letter that said he wanted you to be less intelligent and more 'sexy'?!?!?!

I have to tell you-- I am a DBer through and through. I have a dream of working with MWD one day and helping others improve their relationships. I want to shout from the rooftops all I've learned so that no one else needs to go through what I've gone through.

But my reaction when I read about what your H said to you about your body (putting conditions about your appearance on your relationship? Accusing you of bait and switch?!) was simply, EW. I don't know what else to say.

You sound like a real catch-- and I hope that you will begin to see your own value and strength. His empathy chip seems totally broken.

Hang in there.

[job]

Well done! Now, leave it alone since you've stated what was on your mind, i.e., that letter. Now it's time to go a bit dim and only discuss the kids for now.

Now that your boundaries are set...stick to them and no waffling.

His fantasy woman is either a blow up dolly or a Barbie Doll and let's face it...no one is perfect and no one need to go under the knife to make themselves perfect for someone else. Happiness comes from within and it's what is inside you that counts...looks are just the gift wrap on a wonderful person. As the saying goes...beauty is only skin deep or you can't judge a book by its cover.

Shame on him! He doesn't realize what a wonderful person you are. It's his loss if he can't see you for who you are.

[HaWho]

Hi Claire7- it was so very ew.

Job- I have such peace. I am sure I will cycle but right now I feel like I am looking at the earth from outer space. I see how weak I became.

Just went through my emails and after I set boundary w/H and after he texted me while I was asleep, he also wrote me a poem.

It is dark and depressed. Talks about the optimism of youth. How he tried to do what's right his whole life. But maybe youth was all folly. Talks about just getting through life--not too happy, not too sad, not feeling too much or being too numb. He ends by saying optimism of his youth may have its say.

Poor guy is spinning. I always was slow to that a-ha moment! I put up with a whole lot for a long time but when I do finally get my a-ha moment I REALLY get it. And I get what I have done to myself.

I acknowledged receipt and told him it was very good as it was.

But Job - going dim is easy now. I get why. As, what it is there to say? I am not even mad at him. I allowed it!!!

Job- I can't thank you enough for pushing me to keep focusing on me! You are amazing!! The true proof of the craziness of MLC, is that some MLCer out there let you slip through his fingers!!

[AJM]

HW, I'm glad you set the boundary are at peace with it. That's a great first step.

It's not unnatural for partners to think the world of one another and yet want "something." That goes back to the part about us not being perfect. We're just not.

It's also natural for both partners to want to please one another. It's part of the relationship and part of what drives us to change. The danger is that we change beyond who we are to please. That's out of balance and as the old joke goes, once we've changed so much our partner looks at us and says, "you're not the person I married."

Growing together and separately but remaining true to yourself is a tough balance at times. That's because we're all broken in some way or form. It is what it is.

I think you have a good perspective on where everything stands - damned if you do and damned if you don't. You tried the other way and can look at that and say that was too far that direction. For YOU.

Job is right. Let it sit. You said what you were going to do and what you were going to accept. You'll be challenged, but no need to continue to reiterate. Silence will speak louder than words.

In the same way, silence speaks much louder about a lot of things. It's nice that he feels he can share the darkness he feels. That's really important for you both. But it also comes with some risk that he'll spew during that as his only way of connecting and releasing that anger. Job is right that you need to learn to thicken your skin and learn to remain calm and to walk away when he tries that. He needs to learn to deal with it on his own and that it is not appropriate to take it out on you.

We teach people how to treat us. Self-awareness helps us to do that consistently.

There is much for you to come to terms with about yourself. You're worth learning about and being at peace with yourself. While that is going on, thickening your skin and realizing he is trying to figure himself out externally through you, will help you to know when to set and enforce boundaries and when to shut the conversation down completely until cooler heads prevail.

The latter is a very important tool to add to your bag. There are times I wished I had learned that at an earlier age myself. There are so many areas of life where that is appropriate and useful when it comes to interacting with others of both genders. In the immediate sense, that will be your next tool in the box that you are building and learning to expertly use.

You'll be glad you learned that one.


AJ

[kml]

But actually people tell me all the time I look like Anne Hathaway. But see, he wants Raquel Welch

Lol - and I was Raquel Welch, and my ex wanted an athletic version of Anne Hathaway!

(Fortunately for me, my current boyfriend is African-American, and as far as he's concerned, my curves are PERFECT!).

My ex also had a chip on his shoulder about me being smarter than him - even though we were both equally well educated and successful in the same field! I never thought of myself as smarter than him - we just have different skill sets. (He's now married to a much younger woman, not a dummy, but comes off very girlish. Pretty sure he doesn't have the same level of intellectual conversation with her that he had with me, but maybe he likes it that way.)

My current boyfriend actually is less intellectual in a formal sense, but much more confident in his strengths (emotional IQ, he's an empath for real) and totally comfortable in his own skin, so he's not threatened by me.

[kml]

In the letter he says he wishes I were less intelligent and more sexy

Lol - proper response to this is "Oh, so I see you really don't want an EQUAL partner". Only confident men want equal partners.

[kml]

Or, alternately, you could reply: "I see, so you want a woman who is stupider and has bigger boobs. Is that correct?"

[HaWho]

AJ - such good advice. Need to re-read it all. This whole process makes me realize how few tools I have in my toolbox. I know I cannot focus on him, but reading your posts AJ, just reinforces how immature my H is. The way you just understand there is a balance that needs to take place in relationships and that you have to work to get that white picket fence built, these are concepts my H does not comprehend yet.

I know he is going to test. He is SO mad! He has already told me I am delusional. Now he has closed himself into his room and is back to playing really loud music. He is also back to showering downstairs. He is ignoring me completely with very angry body language. Kind of comical when he is standing next to my 12 year who sometimes acts the same way but S12 then knows to come apologize!!

He actually rarely monsters to my face. He writes it. The other time I have confronted him about a boundary he did not make eye contact either and backed down completely. But he is very brave behind that keyboard!!

Now I practice going dim and silence/not engaging.

[HaWho]

KML - missed your earlier posts! Too funny the Raquel Welch/Anne Hathaway coincidence. Thing is... I was always the athletic Anne Hathaway!! It's not like I ever was Raquel Welch, had children and then became Anne Hathaway?!?

As for trying to be more sexy - I know I would giggle through it. I would feel like I was acting in some cheesy Spanish soap opera!

H is very smart. Not as well educated as me on paper, but smart in all the ways I am not. He should not be insecure here.

H is very good looking. He certainly could have had a Raquel Welch type. But he chose Anne Hathaway. I think he really regrets that decision. When I called him out on my body type not being his ideal, he did not deny it. This might be a simple case of buyer's remorse on his part.

[mleigh4]

Just catching up and it kills me how your H has affected your self esteem with this letter. I can't believe he said those things. I do believe that often when people lash out with verbal or written abuse, it is a reflection of their own unhappiness with themselves.

Beauty has nothing to do with what you look like. I know very attractive people who are not kind, and they actually look ugly to me when I look at them. Same goes for friends who are not eye catchers, but they are loving and caring, therefore beautiful in my eyes and I compliment them often.

I also see so much passive aggressive behavior from your H in your discussion about this, he is truly a broken man. Hawho, he was obviously attracted to you otherwise you would never have gotten this far.

Being true to yourself is tough. I too tried to be someone I wasn't thinking this would make H happy, and it was the start of our tumble. It wasn't until he left that I truly started becoming myself again. With that, I see a sparkle back in his eyes when he looks at me that I haven't seen for a long time.

Setting boundaries, I too was scared that by doing that, I would push him farther away. I was terrified and Job pushed and helped me to be firm about putting myself first right now. Know what? I feel more respect for myself and from H than I have in a long time. It has made me stronger and I am learning to use this tool in other parts of my life, with MIL for example. No more being pushed around or made to feel like a fool when all I want is respect!

I am proud of you for setting those boundaries with your H. Stay strong, I am sending you my strong vibes!! BTW, you seem to be quite a beautiful person to me. Keep your chin up, love yourself and be true to who you are.

((Hugs))

[HaWho]

Wow Mleigh- really beautiful post! So much wisdom. Thank you!

Yes, so much damage was done by that letter and yet it spurred so much growth in me! It was the catalyst for the interior work I have avoided doing (so much easier to watch H then turn the spotlight onto me.)

As for H, and the ugliness of that letter, he is growing up and it is an ugly business. Who among us went through those years with dignity and grace? I am sure I did not!

I never had "issues" with the way I looked. Looks were never really a huge focus for me. Unfortunately, part of my interior work now, is that I did internalize much of what was written to me. I am analyzing that. Per Job's advice I am working with an IC on this brand new issue for me!

20 years ago if a man made even one of these comments to me, I would have rolled up my middle finger and walked on by. No one would have been able to tell me how to feel about myself.

So, Mleigh, I hear you on how you can look up and suddenly realize you lost yourself. This letter has made me feel like I am Swiss cheese: whole pieces now missing!

I needed to set that boundary to begin to take back my body and re-build my confidence in this area.

[HaWho]

One other thing on the PA behavior Mleigh pointed out.

H can come to me and say he changed his mind and does not feel more for me than sister/deep friend bond. He can change his mind. Of course he can; he has free will!

But when he writes me a nasty letter and I change my mind and say I reject the message of this letter, he gets mad! What a double standard! I am not allowed to change my mind too?!?

[AJM]

Allowed to change your mind? Of course. But it's really about balance and not about changing your mind.

Becoming you is important. Not becoming who you were, but who you are. When you talk to your IC, talk about that and see the difference.

Mleigh is right - there are plenty of people that at first glance are eye-catching. It usually takes about 15 seconds to see if that's only skin deep.

I had a friend growing up. His mom was a piece of work and he didn't take it very well. He was stunningly good looking. We'd go to clubs and girls would flock around him like fish to bait. We used to laugh about it. He had blue eyes, black hair and was athletically built. But once he opened his mouth and started to talk, those same girls couldn't get away fast enough. After jail time, he became an overweight pot-head and kept doing the same things over and over again. I felt sorry for him, but he pushed me and the others away. I hope he found his balance at some point.

My point is that people can be good looking and still not be. That cliché about beauty being skin deep is around for a reason.

One other thing to think about. I run into a lot of people that are or have gone through divorce. They seem to buy into the idea that they know themselves better now and know what they want. They then take steps to get what they want.

From what I've seen, they are just taking control of their lives when everything else is out of control. They are missing the point in my opinion. The point is to become who they are, not become business-like and "decide" what they should be. They decide and tend to conform to societal images of who they should be when they do that.

Be you. Everyone else is taken and frankly, not as good.

When you're authentically you, you have more confidence. You radiate peace and beauty. I can tell you as somebody who has dated quite a bit, nothing is more attractive than a woman who is authentically herself and has that inner beauty and peace. The rest is, as one of my friends puts it, cotton candy. Sweet, but no substance.

You are doing the right thing by ignoring the letters. I faced that with my ex for many years. She still tries from time to time, but I've learned that it's just writing and a point in time.

Which leads me to the next part - perspective. Another tool you may want to add to the box, but one that takes time to develop. And a lot of brutal self-honesty. But one that is very much worth it and very very powerful.

Peace,
AJ

[HaWho]

I have a glimpse as to why H is so mad. As mentioned he is not very verbal-prefers to hide in his room behind his computer.

After I reneged on H's conditions to letter and set the boundary, this is that message he sent me while I was sleeping.

He said:

I bait and switched him. I said the letter was welcome and I could make the changes easily. Now the well intentioned letter is an insult and discussion of what his needs were is an abomination. My deception about the letter is now out there. How can he confide in me again on that topic? He moved out of the bedroom because I betrayed him again and now for the last time with his complicity. He does not plan on talking truly to me again. (But he sent me the dark/depressed poem 1 hr later.)

I answered back:

Yes, I did pretend I was okay with the letter. But then I felt deep shame about it and all you asked of me. I started not to feel unattractive when you were looking at me and that's with my clothes on! I started to dislike how I looked to myself. I have learned that my first reaction is to please vs. processing/being honest with myself. I did it to make you happy and I was dishonest with myself. But women have born children and aged far worse than I have and their husbands still revere them and their bodies. I want to be me and I want to be adored for being me.
-------
Ugh- I wish I taken the time to process that letter. Learned a valuable lesson about myself. He feels duped. But it is so much more complicated than that. It is kind of like agreeing to rob an old lady and then it is time to do it and just can't. You have the knife, the mask and it is dark w/no one around but you just can't go through with it.

He is saying he cannot trust me. That the letter was "well intentioned." (Hah! If those are "good intentions" I will take "bad intentions instead!") But he does not see that it is not stuff he should be asking for if he truly loves me. And it should not be stuff I am agreeing to because it is disrespectful to my core. We are both broken you see . . . he for wanting me to go see Frankenstein's monster and me for agreeing!

I sense PA projection--he is not sorry for asking/shaming me rather he puts it on me and says I tricked him.

The part where he says "how can he confide in me again on this issue?"; I think that's a boundary test. He is taking my pulse to see if he can bait me into saying "I am so sorry. You can ask anything of me. We can talk about my body again!"

It feels like he is doing the take away by saying "I will not confide in you again." In all honesty I never want him to feel like he can confide those things in me. Who wants a laundry list of everything that is wrong with her?!? It was 1 3/4 pages long! It is easier for both of us if he just finds that woman that completes his checklist. (He can order her online from Mattel--shout out to Job!).

He is really mad. Inside of doing the interior work of what it is inside of him that thinks it's okay to ask that of your wife/say that to a woman, he is busy turning the light on me for hoodwinking him.

Let's see what all his anger over this reveals to him . . .

[AJM]

But he does not see that it is not stuff he should be asking for if he truly loves me.

Seems more like he is trying to convince himself of something. It's a predictable pattern i.e. not that he always felt that way or does now, but rather a way to justify how he feels in general. Par for the course.

But I do agree he should not feel comfortable telling you those kinds of things. There are, as you surmised, boundaries. And while the arena can be large, appropriate conversations and language that takes into account other's feelings.

His empathy chip is broken and he is focused on justifying more than looking inward, if you ask me.

Likely mad and other emotions at the same time. But certainly looking for somebody to blame for his own issues.

How do you plan to handle that?

AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJ- agreed on all feedback. Thanks! Knowing him the way I do, he just can't admit fault and projects errors onto me.

Good question on how I will deal with him blaming it on me. Right now I am going dim.

If he writes to me again, I plan to take a day and process before responding as it is imperative I show these changes are real, which they are.

In general, if he blames me again, my sense is to tell him that these are not things one asks for in order to feel love. And, that by conforming to these things I will be living a lie, losing myself to gain something very unhealthy. Then I will only resent him and myself. (All true.)

If he comes to talk to me--highly unlikely, but if he is rational I will tell him I need time to think it over. If he spews I am going to go silent and leave the room calmly.

AJ - is there some other general advice you can offer? Or am I good?

[kml]

I think you're good! But now you've got me curious...1 3/4 pages of desired changes? Seriously, you have to share some of the specifics, I'm dying to know!

Surely, if you're Ann Hathaway and he wants Raquel Welch, a boob job was on his list (couldn't he be satisfied with a nice Victoria's secret pushup bra??). What else was on his list? Peroxide blonde? Tummy tuck? Face lift? Butt implants?

It's hard to even imagine what could have been on his list.

I did a few things to please my ex. Began dying my graying hair (ok, that one was a good idea). injected the superficial spider veins on my legs (and ended up with a permanent quasi ulcer on one leg as a complication, plus more spider veins quickly appeared). Started wearing some makeup (and now my current boyfriend tells me he prefers me without any!). Straightened my teeth (had braces as a teen, but some teeth were moving ss I got older.....so glad I did it while it was still on his dime!)

Truthfully, not ALL of his suggestions were bad; but because they always came from that place of his chronic dissatisfaction with me, they always seemed offensive.

Perhaps you could send him a reciprocal list: he should get hair plugs, calf and pec implants, an eye lift and nose job, laser ALL hair off his body, and undergo penile lengthening procedures Plus a large tattoo of your name!

Then again, better not....MLCers are just crazy enough to do it.

[mleigh4]

Again, I see complete PA behavior. Aside from this asinine letter, I'm sorry but it is really ticking me off. Is he perfect or something???? I can't even fathom writing a list of flaws to someone.... But the fact that he is turning the focus from his letter to your reaction, and making you feel GUILTY about being upset....it's cruel and abusive.

Please read up on PA. You will not only drop your jaw when the light bulb goes off, but it teaches you how to deflect the behavior and accept the issue is in THEM. not you. My H is very PA and consistently made me feel bad for my reactions to things he did that were WRONG and not nice. He made me feel crazy for getting upset, I see so much of this in your posts. Please learn how to deal with and turn around this behavior, I think it will help a lot.

[claire7]

^^^ me too. Omg. I don't miss being accused of being overly sensitive or crazy for my very normal reactions to very mean and disrespectful behavior!!

I honestly don't think you can talk him into understanding. People with a broken empathy chip just cannot understand someone else's perspective by definition!

[job]

He married you, not for your looks, but for the person that you are. You could put a salad bowl on your head and dance naked around the pole and he still wouldn't be happy. Whatever you do, don't pretzel for him. No matter what you say or do, he will always come up with some hair brain excuse and produce another list of things he wants changed.

How about what he needs to change for himself? KML gave you a good suggestion...make a list of those things that you want changed in his appearance and let's see how he likes that list!

Gosh, he didn't marry you for your looks, he married you for the person that you are inside. He's really got an empathy chip problem. I think a Barbie Doll placed in his stocking this Christmas would be the appropriate gift for him this year. Even Barbie's looks are changing more and more each year. LOL!

Please do not allow that man's list of what he thinks you need to do to improve on yourself bring you down. You are perfect in God's eyes and if you are happy w/the way you look...then that is all that matters.

Now, let me see if I can find a huge mirror to send to you so that your "boy" can look at himself and preen to his heart's content.

[HaWho]

Thank you guys! KML- Some of the things he recommended were fine and things that I can easily do. As for the others, I am not ready to post it all. It hurts me dreadfully and I am still working through it all. Working towards blowing it off...

He is overtly ignoring me. He is so mad! He did not eat dinner with us last night. My son had a game and H sat far away from me. He says " good morning boys!" when I am right there too. I am acting as if and letting him have his tantrum.

I realize I should not have agreed to that letter, but fear took over and I acquiesced. Very, very destructive to myself. Because I handled it poorly rather than looking at the message itself, in PA fashion, he deflects totally to how I mishandled a very nasty message. But even if I made no errors he would find some way to deflect.

He is right. I was duplicitous. But I have now explained to him that I was wrong to handle it this way, why I did handle it that way, why I changed my mind and that I feel ashamed over agreeing to the terms. I have admitted my fault.

I planted the seed that it was all off kilter. It was sick for him to expect me to "fix us" via these methods and it was sick for me to comply.

One of the most pathetic things is that my list to him had issues such as: let's spend more time together, let's let go of past wrongs, let's be kind to each other and have a good friendship. Ugh. My entire list was from Sesame Steet and parts of his were from the red light district.

But see, here is the crux of it. He has said he does not want a romantic R with me. That he only feels friend/sister bond with flashes of romantic feelings. So, if this is the case the boundary of not talking about my body should be obvious. Right? Why should he care about his friend/sister's body? If he really was just my friend he would be indifferent on this not as vested/angry as he is.

Job- I tried the salad bowl/dancing naked trick. You were right - it didn't make him happy because I was supposed to dance clockwise around the pole!! Ha ha! Thanks for giving me a burst out loud laugh. I needed it.

I am being tested and I can still die on this hill.

[job]

A lot of these nut jobs come up with lists that are suppose to fix "us". In many cases, they come up with are things that truly will not fix "us" or the relationship. They grasp for straws. I had a list of about 15 items and when I looked at the list, I just laughed my socks off because they had absolutely nothing to do with fixing "us".

My xh told the people he worked with that he was working on the marriage...guess what! The only person who was working on the marriage in between the first time he left and the second time was me. He did absolutely no work on the relationship. I pretzeled for about a few days and came to realize that once you fix one thing on the list, he would come up with another 20. The only person I needed to make me happy was myself and it proved to me that nothing could make him happy because he wasn't happy with himself, both inside and out.

My two cents...only work on the things that you think that you need to fix and are necessary. Don't just fix things because he says so...do them for YOU and if they make YOU happy.

As for him being mad...he'll get over it when it realizes that you aren't going to beg and plead w/him.

[HaWho]

Job - thank you as always.

He has done absolutely no work. He is, however, very adept at saying he tried. As for the things on my list, he did them a couple of times and then forgot all about them. Per your advice, Job, I verbalized my needs. I remember he was VERY surprised by this. He wanted something in writing. He even said: you didn't write anything down for me?"

And even after I read him my wholesome, G-Rated list he still didn't feel bad for his requests. Talk about an empathy chip being broken!

Like I have said, I am slow to process but when I really get things, I get them! I really don't want to be with a person who thinks this way. It is so ridiculously shallow. And that is definitely not the kind of mom I want to be to my kids.

He is not chained to a wall. He wants these things, he has free will and he can go find them.

[AJM]

I realize I should not have agreed to that letter, but fear took over and I acquiesced. Very, very destructive to myself.

Let's get something straight. You did what you did out of fear of losing the relationship. That seems fairly healthy in the early stages of being hit by these "items". i.e. in the early stages you're still operating under the idea that 'we' can be fixed. You're going through the process of identifying the things that could use improvement. And trying to remediate them in an effort to fix the balance. That is normal and was likely a part of all of your normal relationships. It's called compromise and owning your own issues. At least in a normal relationship, it is. And as long as you keep healthy boundaries, there's nothing wrong with trying to please your partner. In fact, if both partners do the same and try to please the other, things work out pretty well.

As long as it stays within healthy boundaries.

What you seem to be struggling with is perspective. Healthy perspective. Also normal, HW.

I think giving yourself pause before response is a good idea. When you do, give yourself a framework of questions that you ask yourself. For example, is what is being said true? Is it a healthy request or hurtful? Is it something that, if I changed, would change the fundamental, core me?

Superficial changes are no big deal if you also like them or are willing to do so. But core changes are a problem. And hurtful or unhealthy changes should be out of bounds.

Same for things said. If not helpful or in your best interest, i.e. you should quit smoking or your heroin habit, then they are without merit. Just anger and should be dropped to the ground.

He is looking for "reasons" in his head. Or so it seems to me. I know when I was in your position, that's what came through loud and clear. She wasn't trying to fix me or us - she was looking for justification. To some degree, I compromised. But after a point, it was beyond healthy. In fact, I likely let it go far beyond that in my efforts.

What I lacked was a broader perspective. I was reactionary. I still treated things "normally" when they weren't. But when I stepped back and gained better perspective, I could more clearly see what was going on.

Your situation may be different, but I see some similarities in his actions and what he says. It's much easier to deflect what you're feeling by criticizing others. Much like it is easier to feel anger than any other emotion. Anger is a base emotion.

The pause will help you see the broader perspective. It won't be easy at first, but stick with the pause. It gets easier to see what's healthy and what is just screwed up spew being projected on you. And your path becomes clearer as well.

Let me be clear. That pause is designed for you, not him. He'll notice and he won't like it. But it's a great thing for him to learn how to deal with and get used to. If he can't figure out how to treat you better and talk to you better, then he'll have to get used to it anyway

You're doing great. I'm sorry to say he may not come out of it in time or at all. But you need to be healthy for you. And for your kids. He'll just have to catch up if he's able. And who knows? It might be part of what it takes for him to be motivated to do so. Time will tell for him. You didn't break him, HW. You can't fix him - only fix you where YOU see it is needed. He's not in a position to offer perspective right now.

AJ

[HaWho]

Wow AJ - thank you SO very much. I appreciate all the guidance. When I get through this, I wonder if I will be able to guide others too. I hope to give back.

Yes, I am learning that the key for me is to pause. The times I have been able to step back and do so, my decision making skills have been so much healthier for me. AJ- I am going to put those questions in my toolbox.

In fact, even in the early days, post BD, when I paused, I was able to make healthy decisions. When H asked for an apartment and to come and go as he pleased, he wanted everything his way and I remember posting: "what's in it for me in this arrangement?" I remember setting that boundary for me and I was not at all afraid to lose him over it. I told him should he decide to move out he would not sleep here whenever he chose.

I am still processing that letter and why my initial reaction was shame, not anger. I am pretty sure I should have felt boiling anger. If I had taken pause and processed that, while setting the fear aside, I would have realized that.

I think I felt shame because as I read it I knew I was going to agree to the terms. Sadly, I remember being thankful that I had a chance to work on fixing us! I was worried the letter would be: I am leaving, I have someone else, etc. In that case I would be powerless to fix it. I was already powerless to fix it.

Another reason that, over time, that letter has bothered me, is that while I was prepared to Mrs. Potato head myself to make him happy he was going through the motions of what I needed from him. (And my items were basic needs.) As more time passed, and he went through fewer and fewer of those motions we were still operating under the assumption that I was going to go fix "us" through me.

AJ - you have dropped this work of "balance" several times. I realize there is no balance in this R. Even in that letter, no where does H say: "it is you I want a R with." I know now I can do my half but only with a person who truly wants to do his half. The problem is he is very good at taking and I am very good at giving.

When I truly ask the question: "what is in it for me in this arrangement?" I get very scared.

I think now is the time that I work on me as though he will never come out of this.

[AJM]

And he may not ever come out of it. That's a possible outcome. It's also possible he will and you won't. I'm more concerned about you at this point, as are the other posters.

I was already powerless to fix it

that right there is the key. You are powerless to "fix it" whatever "it" is. And it's not your place. Do you see that now?

But you do have the power to fix you. You do have the power to figure out how you want to live your life and who you want to be. And with whom. For now it's with your H. I applaud that. I truly do. But I do think that facing that it may not be possible and beyond your control is an important step in your own growth.

Balance? There's always some sort of balance in a relationship. It's not until there is no relationship that there is no balance of some sort, however lopsided it may feel.

One of the hardest parts for me was to take on only what were my issues. To stop taking on hers. Along the way after bd, I took on wayyyyyyy too much that wasn't mine. I took on too much blame, too much responsibility, guilt, etc. Why? I was trying to maintain the balance. To control the outcome, if I'm honest. Once it became clear that was wrong of me and dishonored my relationship (I needed to be sure she was at least kind of stable first; conscious thoughts on my part) I began to jettison the stuff that wasn't mine.

The most freeing thing that ever happened to me was to realize that while I wasn't perfect, I only needed to carry what was mine and no more. The rest I gave back. Not violently. Not angrily. I just gave it back calmly. And each time I felt lighter.

Nobody is perfect. We all contribute in some ways to the success and failures. But that doesn't mean it's an even load by any stretch.

It's a slippery slope to ask "what's in it for me?" There should be some (more?) of that, but be careful on that path. It gets lopsided quickly and spirals down to pure greed and selfishness if not kept in check. But as you do that, you need to stop using him as a guide - he'll be of no use in that regard at this point.

Learn to tune into and trust your feelings. I know for me, that was a slow process to get back to. I was so devastated at the time (aren't we all?) that I lost my trust in my feelings. It was weird and soooo not me. Trying to control wasn't the best option, but I can see how it fit. But looking back, I was able to trust my feelings all along. I just needed to temper them before taking action, because as it turned out there were many more than I could process immediately at the time.

Pause. Breathe. Learn to trust yourself. All good starting points as you re-work towards YOU 2.0

I'll warn you though - you'll have to be brutally honest with yourself in a lot of ways. Some are painful. Do it anyway. In small pieces rather than trying to rush through it. It's worth it.

AJ

[HaWho]

I haven't posted in a few days but I have been busy looking inward. As I look for my True North, I see a lot of problem areas that need repairs.

I am starting with some obvious changes. I have to start giving my sons more chores. They already do some, but not enough. I am turning into Cinderella over here and I am doing them no favors either. They can and should do more. It will be WWWIII when I institute the changes.

Here is another problem area that is all me. S12 is in middle school and starting to have more homework/tests. He is trying to learn how to study, both in time and manner. I am getting too involved. I feel it physically and it is not healthy. He is trying to set boundaries on me "mom, calm down, I have it." I know where this comes from; drum roll please: my childhood. I needed to work my tail off to get out of my dysfunctional home and also I think it was an escape from surroundings. I need to separate my experience from my son's.

As I dig deeper into times I have certain emotions I see lots of places that need improvement. Places where I have poor coping skills/an inability to push back that which is not mine.

I am keeping busy reading and hiking. I found a new, very steep trail down to this beach. It's a good workout and gives me lots of time to think.

I did spin a bit today. One week ago I set my boundary with H and he is pretty much ignoring me. I am dim. It is lonely considering we live in the same house. He is back to his closed door, playing music.

He did a few small chores making it obvious to me and I validated. Days ago he texted my son and asked him to ask me if he wanted me to grab him sushi. S12 told him I was not home as I was out on a hike. That is his testing. He does not text me asking me if I want sushi. He tests it with S12.

We had one text conversation initiated by him. He told me something financial he took care of non-kid related. I know the routine now. I validate and say "thank you for all that you take care of." He said "likewise." Hmm.

I am staying out of his way, trying not to interfere. Things just feel so broken all around. During the spinning today, I worried that he would think I was giving up on him/us. I worried about the mistake I made by initially accepting that letter and how much that has cost me. How different it would be if I had taken time to process that. Mostly, I just think I have more grit for these kinds of things. I am willing to accept my errors/admit wrongs and work through those. But every time something gets hard he runs and hides. Too much pressure, I know. He is so stubborn I don't see him reaching out in this push/pull dance. It has always been me who breaks down first.

[job]

HaWho,
He is like a stubborn child. You have to allow him to stew in his own juices. Do not fix this for him. He's the one that is acting like a PIA and he is the one that needs to act like a grown up. Continue as you have been. He's pushing your buttons and knows that you will eventually cave and make the first move...Don't do it! It's time to change the way that you interact w/him. It's time for him to see that the old you has changed and there's a new you in town.

Continue to validate...but leave him in his room w/the door shut. Think of him as a child who is having a temper tantrum because you took his favorite toy away because he wasn't playing nice. Trust me, he will get over it and come out acting like nothing ever happened. Stay the course.

I'm glad you found a new trail to hike. Keep up the good work!

[HaWho]

Thank you Job for the pep talk!! So the spinning passed. I recognized the urge to initiate contact, any contact. I looked at where that was coming from and then got busy elsewhere. I watched a movie w/s10.

This am, I did some chores and then wrote lists for my sons on the chores they needed to do. S10 looked at the list and made one mild wise crack remark but S12 fought hard. He tried guilting me and whining his way out of it. I made them breakfast, completed a few tasks, grabbed my running shoes and hit my hike. I calmly told them that the lists needed to be completed by my return. And they did it! When I returned, S12, in front of me, offered to give the dog water and asked S10 to take out the garbage (neither was on the list). I recognize this behavior! He is growing up and I pray that somehow he completes this task in these teenage years. I need to help him do so. I validate him on doing additional chores as I know he is trying to earn a gold star after his nasty attitude over having to do chores.

Driving to sons' games H cracks a joke--out of the blue. I crack one back and sneak a glance--he is smiling. He waits for me as I am getting out of the car. He sits with me this week--but with headphones in!!! Later he takes off headphones. Then as we go to sit for the next game, he steps out of the way and let's me go first. He cracks another joke. He is laying on the charm.

Job- you are right. He came out and is acting as if absolutely nothing happened! In fact, last night he sent me another song he wrote, right around the time I was spinning, wanting to go and fix it all. But I stopped myself. I heard Job's advice and I replayed the letter in my mind and logically, I knew this was not my issue to fix. By smoothing it all over, all I was doing was laying myself down to be the doormat.

Anyway Job, I am going to take you to Vegas and make some money off your calls!

I see the cycle now, clearly. I don't want to be lifted into his vortex again. I need way more time to figure out how to stop this cycle. I know now that I have to make the changes first. I know when emotions start to take over, I must walk away calmly and try to figure out what is going on from a logical, not an emotional basis. I do not trust my first reaction anymore.

I continue to do a lot of reading and thinking on all of this and there is so much I am figuring out about myself and my reactive nature. I need to grow up, too.

[mleigh4]

Oh Hawho, I relate to you so much.

One of the biggest lessons I learned was to process before reacting. I love this change in myself and I can see you are doing the same. It really makes a huge difference and I have realized my processed reaction tends to be a lot different than my initial reaction. Or even no reaction at all and just letting it ride itself out!

I also am bad at implementing chores with my son. This year I have started some new rules and my son also whined at first, but now does them without reminders. I plan on adding a few each year as he gets older, it's good for them. It teaches them not only how to take care of themselves but to learn responsibility, very important in the real world.

You are doing great, I am glad you followed Jobs advice. Hope you are having a good weekend

[HaWho]

Struggling with the whole concept of moving between attaching and then detaching but still loving.

Saturday evening after dinner, H showered and then came out to say he was going to a movie. Of course, as soon as I heard the shower run I knew something was coming. I nodded and stayed quiet. I was reading and just went back to my book.

I did spin a bit. Sound of the shower always reminds me of heavy replay days and the way he just announced he is leaving as he is out the door made me really angry. That too reminded me of the selfish days of replay.

But, it is also just rude of him to just presume that he has a live-in person to care for the kids so he can come and go as he pleases.

In the AM I went out on my hike while he was in the shower. That hike is my new therapy. As I am returning he texts saying he is on a quick walk and asks if I need anything at the store. I wait a while and then answer "no thanks." I want to detach from this nonsense too. The whole: I just leave to see my movie with no advance notice and then try to make up for it by buying you a gallon of milk.

I return from my hike, make breakfast for me and the kids. As I am finishing up, H comes in. I say "hi" and then boys and I have breakfast. H starts to make his own breakfast. He seems to be rushing to finish in time to sit with us. I ask boys to finish up as we need to walk the dog before their games.

My point is, I felt too detached today. But maybe this is normal? I just see that H wants to live here, close his door, play his music, go to his movies etc. I know this is all par for the MLC course. But it is so dysfunctional for a family unit to operate this way. And it is not healthy for me to get too involved/attached to all this.

I was cordial if he initiated conversation but I was a bit distant. Otherwise I just stayed quiet. I could sense he was frustrated by it. But my H is a teenager right now and though he has glimpses of clarity, I would rather keep him at arm's length.

I know I am more aloof than detached because I felt emotional attachment from his just up and leaving Saturday. But a big part of me just didn't care that I was being quiet/coming off as aloof. Is that normal? I just can't figure out how to detach more, still love, attach at times and then detach when need be.

I think I do this better with S12. I know he is a teenager and I cannot expect too much there. So maybe I am unable to fully detach from H because I still have expectations of H to be a well adjusted adult? Maybe I should imagine H as S12.

[LouR]

Hi HaWho

I can only imagine how incredibly hard it is having your h living at home whilst going through a MLC, I think you are truly amazing, really I do. Your patience and ability to let this run its course without giving up is testament to your strength and commitment to your m.

Being in the opposite situation from you I have no wise words of advice, but just wanted you to know I am supporting from the back row cheering you along and wishing you find happiness in whatever form that takes.

((hugs)) to you my friend.

[HaWho]

Thanks LouR. I appreciate the pep talk. Job- if you have any direction here, I sure could use it.

As now I am truly focusing on me, there are other in-house ropess I have cut. I don't reach out to him unless it is about the kids and really necessary. I don't go to his room anymore to say goodnight or to catch up with him. I don't bake for him anymore. This one feels really weird as he is a foodie. I don't make his breakfast.

It feels severe, but then I ask myself: is he meeting any on my personal likings? Does he come to my room and ask how my day was? No and he does not seem appear to struggle over this. Also, he has said again that he wants to be friends/like brother and sister (weird!). So, to do any of this stuff for him feels like I am courting him. But not doing any of it makes me feel too detached.

It also just feels odd because he earns significantly more than me. So, if feels like I am not pulling my weight. But, how/why should I do this stuff if we are not in an R? It would feel like I was trying to rekindle romance.

[job]

Think of your situation this way...you and a roommate are sharing a home together...would you go in and clean up his/her room? Would you be cooking, running errands for that person, etc.? A roommate can earn more than yourself, i.e., just like your h.

You've come a long way and you need to stick to your path. When he sees that you are doing okay and living your life for you and your children and not putting the focus on him, he'll begin to feel the loss. He can't miss you if you are doing things for him. He's a big boy and he can take care of himself. If he wants to reach out to you, he will, but from where I'm sitting, he looks to you as a mother, not a wife. Just remember...he fired you as his wife a while ago.

Stay the course.

[HaWho]

Thank you Job. Yes, that logic all makes sense.

I do so feel like he wants a mother, not a wife. I have felt that for so very long. In fact when the kids were young, instead of us both rolling up our sleeves, he wanted me take care of him, too. Of course there is a certain doting a wife does on her husband but H's still help with child rearing. That is when the scales became so lopsided. I believe seeing my older son hit a certain young age may have been a trigger for him to go back and get nurtured properly. Just a theory.

The stupid stunt he pulled Saturday really reinforced it for me. I felt like my oldest teenage son (my H) was going out and I was a single mom taking care of the two young ones.

I must say that, for the first time in a long time, I am learning how to take care of me again. I feel I am setting a much healthier example for my boys too.

[mleigh4]

I lived in the same house as H a total of 12,months out of the 26 months this has been going on. Aside from the initial BD, that time was by far the most painful for me and the biggest time of my struggles. Having his MLC in your face and effecting your day to day life is extremely difficult.

I don't have advice because I was not able to handle it well. I remember too well those days of H taking a shower and knowing that he was going out and leaving me to take care of S with no regard, it infuriated me. Then I would get the midnight text that he was waiting to drive because he drank, or not coming home at all. It was horrible, I feel your pain.

I too was told to treat him like a roommate with no expectations. It is hard to think of your H that way, but I don't see any other way around it. I remember Raine lived with her H most of the MLC, maybe her posts might help?

[AJM]

Raine's posts would be a great idea to re-read!

I lived with mine for about 2 years of the time. I felt the pull that she wanted me to be her "dad". I actually laughed at your humor, HW. I too thought of mine as my first teenager in the house. Such an accurate description.

The nagging question for me was "why" does she want me to be "dad" to her? That was really odd to me. Up to that point, we were partners and mates. Father-daughter seemed very out of place and not something I was willing to do. That was a boundary for me (not the same for all). She wanted me to be the "punching bag" for all that is wrong in her world as well. I put an end to my participation in that after a few months when I came to my senses.

Looking back, I think the second child hood is part of the journey. I know I've read it many times, but it really hit home later as I looked back. She even married a controlling guy 12-15 years older than her if that's any indication of what she was looking for. That just wasn't something I was willing to be.

Re-read those posts. And listen to job's advice. She's right - you're not his mother and you were fired from being his wife. So what does that leave you with? The best part - YOU.

But you have to embrace the change. It's not easy living with a MLCr. It's not easy when they move away. Because there is no easy way through. But there are things you can do to ease things. And making sure that you don't take on more than your part and more than you are willing to is part of that.


AJ

[HaWho]

Hi Mleigh- ok, I think I read some of Raine's threads before so I will go back and re-read them if they are still available. You know how it is when you re-read--you see things you missed now that you are further along.

Have an interesting story from my GAL escapades. Took my new rugged hike down to a different part of the beach where clothing seems to be optional?!? I passed the nudist section and parked myself with those who opted for clothing. I was getting set to leave when a completely nude man came and sat right next to me! I flashed my wedding ring a few times but that did not deter him in the least. He asked me a bunch of questions on which I had a hard time concentrating.

As he was talking I just thought: now I am pretty sure I am a magnet for full blown MLC cuckoos. He was maybe 10 years older than me and in his birthday suit was hitting on a clothed woman with a wedding ring. They must be able to sniff out that I am now completely used to weirdo situations.

Speaking of which, back to my own sitch. One of my sons has a sports tournament this weekend that would require an overnight stay at a hotel. The other son may also have one at the same location. We will know tonight. H hinted that we can all go for the weekend.

I was invited out with some friends this weekend and as I am the only hen in a house of roosters over here, I plan on going with the ladies. I need the break. If both sons go, I will brand it as a boys weekend and bow out. If only one son goes, I am going to try to arrange for the other son to see a friend for a few hours so I can have some time with friends.

The very last thing I intend to do is share a bed with H this weekend. I am not even spinning about this. I just know it is completely unhealthy for me given the events of the last months. My situation is weird enough as is without adding that variable into the mix. No thanks.

I stayed silent as he dropped the suggestion. I wait to see if both sons are going or not. If both sons go, I will tell H that I have plans with friends and I will tell him he can make his own plans the following Saturday.

I definitely want to signal to him that I am perfectly okay with us having separate plans. This is especially important to me given his selfishness this past Saturday.

[HaWho]

Hi AJ - missed your post, just caught it now. Wow! Can't believe you lived with your MLCer for 2 years. That must have been tough. I will definitely re-read Raine's posts.

Unfortunately, as I look back, I think my H has, for quite some time, been looking to me to be the proper mother he never had. In fact, if I am truly honest about it, the R he had before me was an odd one. It was a red flag to which I should have paid more attention. I know if he walks out of this M, that is exactly the kind of R to which he will run back. The girl was poorly educated, not bright or engaging, very invested in her looks and willing to do everything the way he wanted 24/7. She did not have an independent thought in her head. To me it was a boring and depressing relationship. She mirrored his mother. Both were uneducated women who were in destructively lopsided relationships with men.

I think for my H, seeing my older son hit a certain age, maybe about 7 triggered something in him. He started to be jealous of the attention I gave the kids. Rather than rolling up his sleeves and getting in the trenches with me, he spent a lot of time licking his wounds and complaining that he had been forgotten. He definitely regressed maturity-wise. He quickly became a third child.

In hindsight, I see now that the anger started many years ago ... perhaps as far back as 5 years ago. And I see now, many, many instances where he projected who his mother is onto me.

[AJM]

I know of all kinds of marriages that have similar complaints. One spouse feels abandoned by the other due to (pick one) life stress, goals attainment, child rearing, different sexual desires, etc.

Often, if looked at from the outside, it seems that much of what is going is two stressed out people that are playing tapes from their own upbringing. In other words, they act according to what they learned. Not necessarily what they missed.

Partnerships are more about meeting each others needs in a healthy and constructive way. That's not an easy task as you can imagine and have lived.

As part of your growth and healing, I'm sure the question will come up for you how much of this is him and his issues, how much of it is yours that you brought to the relationship, and how much of it is not being able to harmonize those in a mutually satisfactory way.

From an outsider's point of view, it could simply be he felt his needs weren't being met for years. Add resentment to that.

On your half, it may seem like you were doing what you needed to do and didn't get your needs met for a lot of years. Add resentment to that.

With both of you resentful, it can be hard to differentiate between childhood and other since they are so closely intertwined.

At some point, there may also be a break of some sort that sends one partner off the other end of the slide.

I know for me, I had to answer these questions honestly in order to grow. I didn't always like the answers, but they are what they are. We do what we can with the knowledge we have at the time we need to. Simple as that.

I would caution against the diagnosing. That's a path to insanity on a fast train. It might be helpful to re-frame into how looking at things objectively can help YOU grow. He has already chosen his method of how to get what he feels he needs. Nothing wrong with feeling your needs. How you go about it is another matter, but I think it's safe to say he couldn't continue the way things were. You likely couldn't either. Again, I know I felt a little guilt when my ex left. Guilt because I wasn't completely unhappy with her leaving. There was a part of me that was glad things weren't continuing the same way. I just wasn't at the tipping point. I also wasn't a lot of other things, but that's not important here

Try to de-focus him and focus on you. What can you improve about yourself that you would want to do? You don't need to diagnose him to figure that out and it is a good investment of your time to invest in YOU.


AJ

[HaWho]

AJ- thank you as always.

Yes, we each brought problems to the R. We then each added problems through the years. Resentment was layered on for both of us.

Honestly, I don't have a clue as to how to re-focus him without crossing into the "let me try to fix everything again" mode. As posted a few weeks ago, he told me (again) that he wants a deep friendship/brother and sister R and yet feels flashes of a romantic R. How do I re-focus someone who is so fundamentally conflicted? Plus, even in the moments where he is present/has clarity he just seems to be going through the motions.

Right now there is very little communication between us. I don't initiate anything. I answer his questions about the kids. I know I have to break the cycle of distancer/pursuer. Meanwhile, I am working on taking care of me/figuring myself out and caring for the kids.

I feel stuck. I feel like I have exhausted so many options.

[HaWho]

Wait a second- AJ, you must have meant re-focus the way I see him. Or re-focus to where our lives are today. You do not mean try to re-focus/re-direct him.

Yes?

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, I think he means refocus from him onto you

[HaWho]

Hi Sotto and AJ- I completely misread that line from AJ. I just went back and realized AJ wrote "de-focus him" NOT "re-focus him." Hence my earlier confusion. Whoops! No wonder it made NO sense!

This Friday one of my sons and I are going out to a pretty neat Halloween event. It's a walk through a park lit by carved jack o'lanterns. I am going with my friend and her kids, who are good friends with my son.

It looks like my s12 will not be going to this tournament this weekend. So on Saturday I plan to take a few hours to myself and see girlfriends.

One of said friends is getting married for the first time. She has such optimism; it is beautiful to see. I have not told her anything about my sitch. Recently, she and her future H met with the pastor who will marry them. They read over passages from the bible about what it means to be married.

I listened to her. In my head, I thought, yes, one day you stand before God and a room full of witnesses and promise to love and honor each other until death do you part. You go along thinking you are married to a reasonable person of sound mind. And then, in an instant it is revealed to you that this person has for all intents and purposes lost his faculties. And the one thing you thought you had: someone who was there to work through issues, is gone. You thought you had a guy who was going to go to the finish line with you. In reality, you have a guy that seems to have lost the baton (maybe thrown it away?!?) and is running the relay race in the opposite direction.

Maybe if she asks me to make a toast, this is what I can offer up? Ha ha.

Rounding the bend to my one year BD. This time last year I had woken up from my own depressive slumber. I finally processed the gravity of what had happened to my sister's life and to her son.

One year ago, I start to look around me and I confronted H on where he was going all the time. I asked him if he was having an affair. He said no. I told him obviously something was up. He fidgeted and nervously told me that everything was fine. I knew he was lying and said so.

In reality he was pounding the pavement looking for his dream apartment! Lied RIGHT to my face that everything was just fine. Weeks later at BD when he announces he wants to cake eat between here and his apartment, I call him out on lying that everything was okay. He has the audacity to tell me that he was not lying because he had not yet actually made the decision if he was going to get an apartment. He was still trying to see if it "felt right." I tell him that there was a time where we both believed omission of information was a form of lying. Really classy.

Anyway, it is important for me to take back BD day. What I really want to do is go away the night before so that I am not here the morning of. I have a gift certificate to a spa and I want to take the day to myself. But I do feel guilty leaving for the night. Trying to figure out why that is. I think I worry about not being here for my kids in the AM? If I don't actually go away for the night, I am for sure taking the day off for me.

But I really don't want to be here the morning of as that is when he bombed me.

[kml]

Go away the night before! Your kids will be fine with H. Do it for you.

I remember, shortly after the final bomb from my H when he asked for a divorce, I went away for the weekend. Just to a nice hotel up the road, but someplace where I could lie by the pool and cry in my room and just be by myself. It was healing, my kids didn't think anything of it, and I know my soon-to-be-ex was mystified that I would go off on my own. Lol.

I have fond memories of that weekend even though I was so distraught. The staff was really sweet to me too. Do it.

[HaWho]

Ok- KML- I will listen to your words of wisdom. You seem SO strong it's hard to picture you in that position. It encourages me.

So when I check in at the hotel and they ask "is your stay for business or pleasure?" I will say "oh, not sure! My H is having a MLC and one year ago today he told me he did not love me and that he wanted an apartment so that on Saturdays he could sleep with other women! Meanwhile, he gave me the green light to sleep with other men on Friday nights!"

Let's see what complimentary item they send to my room. Probably they will deliver Jerry Springer and his camera crew.

[Jpeg]

Love it! I can only imagine the look on their faces!

[HaWho]

H just texted me to ask if we all wanted to go out to dinner tonight.

I waited a while and then said yes.

This time I swear, I WILL NOT have any expectations. I totally get that though he may have moments of clarity, his spaceship is out there somewhere, just waiting to bring him back. (Probably H is just killing time as the ship re-fuels in preparation of returning to the mother ship.)

[AJM]

I really like your sense of humor, HW. The Friday/Saturday night thing and wondering what the hotel will offer as token in light of that has me laughing.

it is important for me to take back BD day

I'm like that too. I tend to face what's going on more than run from it. I found that works better for me. For me, I threw BD and divorce parties for years with my friends. They grew to large parties after a while. I kept doing that until I no longer cared to remember the days in that way. It became unimportant to me. But it was a lot of fun in the meantime. And it helped to re-do the memories from ones of sorrow to ones of joy. I've done that with many areas of my life in much the same way. For example, I took my son to London for the Olympics. Something I wouldn't have felt I could do while married. I got my degree. Also something that was a no-no while married. But mostly I focused on me and the things I wanted to do apart from re-making shared memories. Sometimes I even had company. Others, I didn't.

Go away the night before! Your kids will be fine with H. Do it for you

Couldn't agree more! Spend some time away from them and let them spend time with H. He's their father and they'll be fine.

And then, in an instant

This one is interesting. You may have noticed that most things happen "in an instant" right? Think about that for a minute. Because really, what's going on right now, is just "an instant" in time. A small part of your life in the scheme of things.

You should re-read Raine's posts. Seriously. What your H is doing right now? It's a point in time. Whether or not you let him come back is still to be decided. Whether or not he wants to (I think he is starting to) is also be to be decided. It would be a shame to not focus on your during that intermission. However long that ends up being.

Perspective is always interesting. To hear a story from different sides is like hearing two or three different stories. For example, he might say it was your depression that drove him away. While you may say something else. (I am not condoning his letter nor his actions! They are very wrong in many ways). Just remember that a point in time is not the same as the long haul. And in your post about marriage and your friend getting married... that's important to recognize.


Interested to hear how the evening goes.

AJ

[HaWho]

Hi Jpeg - nice to meet you. Not only would I Iove to see the hotel receptionist's face but I just like the idea of giving them a situation that is not covered in their hospitality manual. Lol.

AJ- I really admire the fact that you took back those painful moments and re-packaged them. Good for you! I always thought when BD anniversary came I would weep and wallow. But, next year, like KML and like you, I want to remember the positive memories I created THIS year. Of course, to re-do my bomb drops I will have to be creative as I have 3 in one year!!! One more, and I can link them to the seasons. This one can be my "Halloween/My H wants an open marriage because he doesn't remember why he married me" party. That'll really get the neighborhood talking.

I have begun reading Raine's posts. NO ONE tell me how it all ends. I cannot believe she was pregnant with her 4th when the MLC tornado hit her life. It amazes me how humans can survive such pandemonium. You know, last spring my H wanted a third child!

As for my hand in my marital mess, I am very ready to own my part. I have told H that I lost my way in my depression. I have apologized. I have thanked him for trying to reach out to me. Those were very painful years for me and he was truly patient. I did tell him that now I am waiting for him. Not sure if he remembers that as I told him that in a moment of his clarity. I am sure I was very unattractive to be around. I learned many valuable lessons about life and about myself.

My personal opinion is, it usually takes a while for a marriage to get bad. For us, it happened piece by piece. However, were the problems insurmountable? I don't think so. My depression was 3 years out of the 20 we have known each other! That is a drop in the bucket. As painful as this last year has been, it is like one ring in a tree trunk. In general, I think all things worthwhile require work. You can't re-build it over night. But you both need some grit to get it done. Right now my H gets a paper cut or sees a scary shadow and he runs away. I can't do it by myself. (I know as I actually tried it multiple times!)

As for tonight, here are the highlights. H wants to make going out for family dinner a weekly thing. He said this 3 times. (Of course my planned hotel BD escape falls on that particular day of the week two weeks from now.) I can't help think he instituted this ritual to keep me where he'd like me. This week I have cut several strings that tether us and I think he knows it. Let's see if he even remembers this ritual next week. Let's watch the actions, right?

Anyway, while out he cracked a few jokes. He initiated conversation with me but barely made any eye contact at all. Somehow, the concept of heinous crimes came up. S10 asked what we thought were the worst crimes. I said, hurting the weakest people in society: the elderly, the mentally/physically impaired, kids. H answered hurting kids as they are left with a lifetime of scars where the elderly have lived most of their lives.

I agreed with his logic and validated. H then said those scars stay with kids for life but it should not be the case as logic should prevail. Hmmm.

He came home, ran to his room, closed his door and started playing music.

[job]

Welcome to the world of MLC teenagers!

I wouldn't change my plans for next week. I would still go and try to have some fun. If he wants to go out to dinner next week, the two of you can schedule another time.

His crisis didn't happen w/a snap of the finger. It took years in the making and it's going to take some time for him to heal within and face, deal w/his issues and then accept that there are some things that he wasn't responsible for when he was a child and he can't change the past, but can make the present and future better for himself.

Bottom line, you can't fix him because you didn't break him. However, you can continue on your path, work on you and do the things that make you a better person. Keep the focus on you and allow the man upstairs to work on your h.

Hopefully "Led" will come out of his room and share some of his music w/you at some point.

[HaWho]

Yes Job-entry into MLC teenage land is baptism by fire over here. Wait 'till you hear the latest.

Quick backstory. As H retreated into downstairs bedroom, but before I saw it was MLC, I coined that room his "dorm room" as it really did seem like one. I even offered to get him stackable plastic milk cartons to use as furniture. We both always refer to that room as his dorm room now.

Last night at bedtime H texts me from dowstairs that he is having a ceiling fan installed and tearing out the carpet as he has had "enough" of his "nasty, hot, dorm room." He tells me the cost of renovations and ends by saying he is almost 47 (i.e. too old for this lifestyle). I don't answer but chuckle thinking that he is doubling down on literally externally "fixing" his sitch.

In the AM I re-read the message with fresh eyes and mind. It hits me that he wants me to intervene. It is a chess move on his part. He knows I am the frugal one and by dropping the renovation cost, he hopes I will swing open the bedroom door and say: "don't spend so much! Come upstairs to the palatial, cool, master bedroom with refreshing cross breezes!"

Instead, I swipe his queen off the board. I say: "ok. When the renovations are complete I will bring you a lava lamp to spruce up your dorm room." (He knows I always find humor in everything,). Then I say: "I have plans Saturday and will be gone for a few hours. " (Plans I made happen to coincide with dorm room renovation--PERFECT!)

He answers with a pithy: "K." I know this is not the response he expected. It is my 180. And with that I picture his poor little king ambling around the board, square by square, looking for safe shelter.

Anyway now for some fun. I have always been one who loves practical jokes. When dorm room renovation is complete, I will give H the lava lamp that my son has outgrown as H is now the "right age" for it. Also, I am ordering those beads that hang over the lintel--H once spoke fondly of having those on his college dorm room door! Of course NO teenage boy's dorm room is complete without the pinup poster!!!

What/who will I be hanging, you ask? Raquel Welch OF COURSE! Get this, I found that classic beach/bikini poster of her BUT it is ALSO stamped with "bygone era"--the name of the poster company!! Not sure he'll catch that humor though. One day soon after renovation is complete and he is out I will decorate his room.

Time to give him his fantasy life on a silver platter ...

[kml]

LOLOL!!!! LOve the poster idea!!!

[Wonka]

LOLOL!!!! LOve the poster idea!!!

Yeah, me too...I'd suggest that you go with the 70's Farrah Fawcett-in-all-of-her-bathing-suit-glory poster!!

[job]

He will be in seventh heaven over those items! Yep, he's the right age for the lava lamp. LOL!

It will be interesting to see how the renovations look once he's done. He just might surprise you!

Enjoy your weekend!

[AJM]

The pinup idea cracks me up. That's really funny.

I think it's nice that you two take turns with depression like that. Very neat and tidy.

You know, last spring my H wanted a third child!

yeah, funny how kids come up in the conversation. Mine also wanted a third. She did mention that she just didn't want one with me I know of several others that had kids or bought bigger houses and then BD'd their spouse. Part of the M.O. but never really seems to work.

Odd that he wants to keep a family get together on the calendar. Odd that he would want you to swoop in and decorate. Strange to keep you in the loop on things, don't you think? What do you think that's about? I mean, obviously he wants to keep you near, but why do YOU think that is?


AJ

[HaWho]

Hi AJ- that is a good question.

I have a few theories. First, I think he is genuinely confused about how he feels about me and I think he is trying to keep me sitting on my hands while he works through things.

However, from a lot of my reading I am starting to worry that maybe H is love avoidant. He had emotional enmeshment with his mother. Anytime I even come close to talking about my emotional needs he gets antsy. His eyes even get furtive. It seems to be sensory overload for him.

If this is the case, he is seeing me pulling away. And I am in fact detaching more. This is not to lure him or pretzel myself but because it is not healthy for me to be warming a seat for a guy who up and walks out on a Saturday night to go see a movie by himself. What am I clinging to here? I am already alone and have been for quite some time. He has already abandoned me. And I have survived it.

So if he is love avoidant, then by pulling away vs. pursuing I have triggered his unconscious fear of abandonment now. Hence, he starts to move in. Then, if I take the bait, at some point it gets beyond "Monday morning water cooler talk level," bam, he runs and takes cover. Cycle recurs.

Those are my two theories. AJ or anyone else, do you see something different in the MLC tea leaves?

One last noteworthy item. Tonight S12 barged into the dorm room to tell H he did well on an advanced math test. H growled (and yelled!) at S12 to knock and sent him to his room for barging in without knocking. S12 was holding back tears as he was proud and wanted to share the good news. H was angry as he was recording a song. Spoiler alert: it is another dark, stormy song. Sigh.

Anyway, I have not seen H lash out angry like that since May. Despite the circumstances I found it refreshing. Sometimes I feel like I am just living with taxidermied H and I want to poke an emotional stick at him to see if he is alive.

New thread can be found here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=newpost&Board=28