I am M:26 and the W:24 (turns 25 in 17days, more on this later) with one D:5
Not sure how to proceed writing this but I will let the words flow if I can. It definitely feels good to vent.
Marriage history to come in next post.
Also, I apologize for not knowing all of the abbreviations. (Part of me hopes that I'm not around long enough to memorize them, dark humor I know...)
I plan on picking up DR on the way home today if I can find it.
Pressing questions for me:
Do I go completely dark? Do I go dark/let go/protect myself all at once, or do I try to play by ear and react to the situation changing.
Her birthday is coming up, do I try to do anything for it?
Her and I are both fitness freaks. I go to the gym almost everyday, I am unwilling to give this up as it is helping tremendously with coping. She works at the gym that I go to. And I do not have the money to switch, although I am thinking about switching anyway. BUUUtt part of me thinks, that me showing up to the gym freshly groomed, very friendly to her listening to her workout advice or problems or whatever she has to say never done before, will explain in next post)consistently, will help turn her opinion of me around. Yes, no?
Pre notes:
I love my wife immensely and regret her having to walk out, is the only thing that woke me up. I do want her back and am unwilling to give up until its truly over. This would be her saying yes its over she wants a divorce or her starting up with a new guy. (this might change too I'm not sure how i will feel when it happens?
I am slightly confused trying to sort through whether the information I am reading about is for separated males or females, or if it even matters. As well as if its for separations with affairs or without them. And if any of that matters.
I am here because this particular course of action does feel right. Not to say there aren't moments of despair and doubt. I constantly question if I am doing the right thing by avoiding her. Not a lot of time has passed so I guess I will see.
At this moment in time she is still communicating with me. Her saying she doesn't know what she wants, whether its me in the long run or a future apart, does give me a slight hope in reconciliation. I know I cannot expect this for my sanity's sake.
I do not suspect an affair right now. But again I have no expectations. This may be happening and it will probably hurt if true.
My Story So Far:
8/30/15 was BD (bomb drop?) She left the same night. I let her go, we've had this conversation before, but she seems heart set on the space. I know its good to give space. I don't beg her, don't say im going to change, again Ive done all that before and she did stay, but not for her she says, because she cant see me in pain.
Currently still at her parents. The first week I was in pre-denial if there is such a thing. I was convinced she would be back after a few days. That she just needed a little break. She'd be back, shes threatened to leave before but always stayed, this isn't different shes coming back. I am texting her throughout the day. Making Facebook posts to try and show her and the world that I love her, send wedding pictures to remind of the good times.
9/5/15 The second week rolls around, I am in shock, devastated. The pain is unreal, I walk around gagging, nausea, tears, that awful lump and the pain in the heart, oh wow its real. Desperate to find something that will work, my search of the internet begins. I talk to family members, and for the first time in a while i try to talk to God.
9/6/15 She texts me saying shes going to move to a renovated house her stepdad is building. She also mentions legal separation. I do not disagree but, this scares me even more, more desperation sets in.
9/6-7/15 I do a lot of research during the previous day, I find Jack Ito and i also find Divorce busters. I don't have the money to call but the things they talk about give me hope.
They talk about various techniques but I resolve to go to try and get her, i tell her I understand, I tell her she can still have her space, I try to make it about her not me. I explain to her in a letter that I read in tears that I understand why she left, that I took her heart and she expected me to protect it and that I broke that vow and destroyed her love.
I ask her to let me regain her trust. But she says she doesn't know if she can. I ask to get to relearn each other. But she doesn't know if she can. I ask to just start dating again, she says shes not ready.
The here and now: Fast forward 3 day's After the denial of Monday night, I see that pushing, begging, convincing isn't going to work. Her heart is hardened against me. Since we have a daughter that is 5, I also decide that I cannot for her sake, and my own, sit around in self pity, hoping that my wife will return.
Tuesday the 8th i am still texting her during the day. Trying to take deep breaths and relax. Pain comes in waves. Anxiety still high. I do call her that night.
Wednesday the 9th Very little texting from me. I call her that night because we need to find a better place for our (mostly hers) dog to stay, because I work long hours he is alone from 7am until 8pm
Today, little to no texting. only ask her about some bills. remain friendly. convincing myself to let go/move on. but the pain still comes the desire still comes, the lump doesn't go away.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Read some of user Mozza's early posts and I realize that I am feeling a lot of the same things.
Is this a forum for saving the marriage or a subtle way to let us down easy?
Everything is moving so fast, I feel like I'm just watching my life on a TV, turn into everything I never wanted on fast forward. And I cant change the channel or turn it off.
I feel like this is what my W is trying to do. Letting me down easy, any moment I am expecting her to tell me there is a OM. When she left she cried and said I still love you so much, please don't hate me for this. How can I not be angry with her?
I know after much self reflection that I was an awful H.
Its not that I'm upset so much that she walked out and is getting space. It is probably good for both of us. But its the fact that she seems so distant so unloving, where 2 weeks ago we we were kissing and making love and talking and it seemed like everything was fine.
She went from I need a little space, to I am moving into a different house and we should get a legal separation.
Marriage History to come.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Trying very hard not to reach out to her right now. Try to rationalize whats happening. Try to make sense of what shes feeling. Try to clarify what she wants. I dont think it will help. I want to talk to her so bad. I dont know if going dim? Is the right thing to do. Somewhere deep down I feel like I should be fighting for her. Show her what I want. That I am confident.
Anyways History the Kind of Short version:
Got married very young, 17 her and 18 me. I joined the AF and she went with me to Japan. Two kids in a foreign country with no family was a recipe for disaster. But we were in love right? Had a beautiful daughter. I fell out of love with her. Had a EA. She distanced herself. Became unhappy. I fell back in love, but I still didn't know what that truely meant, both to me and to her. I didn't listen to her needs. I didn't respect her. I took her love and destroyed it.
This circle of destruction continues when we move to Hawaii on my next assignment. I dont like that she is in this pity party. She wont leave the house. I finally tell all this to her and she resents me for it. But soon she is working out, gets a job, goes back to school! Only this doesnt help us comes closer. She sees it as her being independent, which is fine. I get very sick. A lot of hospital time. I become scared that I am going to lose her. But instead of reaching out for help, I lash out in fear. She is further away than ever before. Starts going out with coworkers and gym friends rather than helping me. I feel abandoned, but I cant blame her. She has texts from other guys and facebook messages and snap chats that I feel are inappropriate. Guys asking her out, she not saying no. Lots of flirting. Exchanges of photos in underwear that sort of thing. I fear the worst and confront her. She denies everything and apologizes. We move closer towards each other emotionally. Still wary of it all.
About a year ago, due to the sickness I am separated from the military. We move back home. Very stressful. Have to find a job, new house, childcare, cars all the craziness. I hate the new job, become angry and depressed again. Fall into the same pattern that she hates. She tries to reach out and say its affecting her. But I still don't listen.
A month ago. She withdraws, I think everything is OK. We seem to be getting along. We don't really have an argument I just walk away from a conversation we are having and she flips. Saying I never listen. I apologize. She goes out that night and spends 4 hours with a friend that has been divorced. The next day she says shes leaving. Says it all came into perspective when her friend said she finally felt free after leaving her husband.
Classic WAW situation in my opinion. The more I read the more I see what I did. No one I talk to has ever heard of any of this.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
After 8 years together and 1 kid, my W announced at the end of August 15' that she wanted space. I agreed that it would probably be good, we cried together but I thought It would help if I didn't disagree for once.
A week of light texting, saying I love you, sending old wedding photos. I thought she would be back. Then realization set in. I went to her, cried and told her I understood what I did. Said we didn't have to live together right now. But let me gain her trust back.
She said she didn't know if she could ,She said she wanted to be alone, find her true self, pursue goals she felt I repressed. That she was unhappy for a very long time and no longer in love with me, that we had no passion, and all she saw when she looks at me is pain. She said she thought was far ahead of me as far a developing and that I was too far behind for her to know if she wants to wait for me to be where she needs as a couple.
She had told me before of some of those things but I didn't really listen. We never really resolved anything. We fought often, and I wasn't changing fast enough, she grew hopeless that things would improve.
A day after BD, she moved out. Took all her stuff during the week. A week later she is saying she wants a legal separation and that she is moving into her own apt. Its moving so fast.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Sorry to hear about your situation, but sadly it's all too common. Your W sounds like a classic WAW but I wouldn't be totally shocked to find out there is an OM involved, especially given the history you described with pictures and men asking for dates.
Cadet should be along soon with a post with several links to a ton of good advice. That is your homework. Read every one. You can find the same links in almost anyone's first thread if you don't want to wait. This is going to be one of the hardest things you have ever done.
For now, you need to realize and accept that your old M is over. You have been fired as a H and your W wants nothing to do with you. If you are going to have a R with her in the future it will be in a brand new M. Right now, you need to give her the space and time she is asking for. Do not pursuit her, do not buy her flowers, profess your love, write her poems, etc. None of that is going to do anything but push your W further away.
You need to try and detach from her, and focus on you. Do some serious thinking about your own role in the breakdown of your M and focus on fixing those things in you. That's all you can control is you. Your W needs to explore her own feelings and you need to let her. This is going to be a very long, difficult journey. It will be measured in months or years, not days or weeks. Sorry that you are here but follow the advice given and you will get through this and come out a better man in the end.
Me 47 W 42 T 24 yrs M 18 yrs W living with OM BD1: 3/7/2015 (A with OM#1) BD2: 4/11/2015 (A with OM#2, W moves out) WW filed for D, papers received 9/18/2015. Meeting to determine child custody 9/29/2015.
Is this a forum for saving the marriage or a subtle way to let us down easy?
It is about saving yourself, becoming the best person you can be, and saving your S. are there any guarantees or 100% M are saved? Nobody, no program, book or forum can give you that kind of guarantee.
Every person's situation is a little different from someone else. When reading another poster's thread, be careful in taking the advice he may get for his situation and think it is over all advice for every one, unless it's clarified.
While you wait on your book, read those links Cadet gave you. They are important to grasping a lot of what we talk about here.
One of those links is called, "Sandi's Rules". It is a guide to help newcomers get their bearings when they first arrive.
Be sure to read the detachment thread. Don't assume you know what it means.
Right this minute, stop all pursuing action! It only pushes her away. Stop being available to her. Stop initiating contact throughout the day. Pull back, but not with a cold or mad attitude. Know the difference in DBing detachment from cold/angry.
At this point, instead of trying to prove what a good MR you could have, maybe she needs a glimpse of how it would feel if she didn't have you in her life. No hanging out together, no contacting to chat, no being her BFF, no family togetherness, holiday events, etc. Here's where I'm going. Instead of trying to convince her to stay, you need to become the guy she doesn't want to lose. You can't be that guy if you are chasing her, right? As long as you pursue her, she knows she has you in her pocket.
I'm not saying to make her jealous, or anything like that. I am saying to find the man you would be if you didn't have her. Focus on inner strength. Be the best daddy you can be. Be the best man you can be. But don't try to win her back by showing her what a great H you can be......(at least, not at this particular tim). She really does need space, and a lot of it. So, give it to her. You do your own thing and leave her alone. Right now, she isn't worried about losing you. You are worried about losing her. How can that dynamic change? Not by you dating, or trying to purposely make her jealous, but by detaching and getting a life. You can learn more about GAL, what it is and what it isn't.
Give yourself a deep evaluation as a man, H, and daddy. See where you need to improve. Set some small goals to get there. Oh, and remember something, some things you'll read in some relationship books may not be something you can apply immediately, but you can take in the information to use latter when the time is right. Timing is everything!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
thank you for replying. After talking to her in person again, I am more sure that there isn't another guy at this time. But I am trying to not have expectations just in case! No matter what is happening right now she is a good person. She does seem to be rushing to get out of the relationship and is using a lot of ''what if'' i meet someone else type arguments.
Mozza,
Read a few of the early posts from you, saw a lot of questioning and despair and thought that i may not have been where you where but I sort of related. I dunno. It has been a long week haha. My head is spinning.
Sandi,
Thank you. I realize that no one can guarantee that we will be saved. Just a lot of panic from me. I read your rules several times before i even posted and continue to read. The article on detachment was also very helpful for me. We were both very attached to each other. And she broke that over time, while I didnt realize i needed too until the BD. I feel like I have done ok at pulling back. Starting this week, I will no longer work out at her gym. Ive stopped texting her throughout the day. Ive stopped calling her unless i need to for our daughter. I am trying very hard to take a long look at myself and improve. But i feel like im doing it for her at the moment not me. Not sure when this will change.
However, and anyone can comment on this.. every time we speak she seems to be pulling further and further, regardless of space. We met at my request last night (and that may have been a mistake) but i was happy that she agreed... I tried not to have expectations. We talked about some silly things, laughed a little. but.. She basically said that she wants the BD, and soon. But wanted closure on us at that moment. I asked that she take her time. And that I felt she was rushing. She didn't seem to care. She told me that she was moving towards wanting a divorce. But that she still has feeling towards me, still loves me. (I can still see the freakin love in her eyes guys! its aweful, gives false hope i feel like) But that she cant be with me, and doesn't know if she ever will be able too. She says at the moment she sees no future with me. She just wants to be ''happy'' and hasnt been happy with me for a long time. She said being away from has made her happy. Sad about the pain and having to do this, but less stress, happy to focus on herself. I did not bring any of this up. Just listened. If she says she happy now after two weeks without me, do i have a chance in hell? haha. So did me meeting her cause this? If I had waited may it have been different?
And I get that this may be something I cannot control, but it [censored]. I read elsewhere that I should not cave in to her demands for ''separation'' or the D word. Does/would this apply? Does caving to her every demand put me at a disadvantage? Does it show her I am weak and in turn she loses more respect?
Should i request that we have a true separation for a while and then think about divorce. I feel we both need time at this point. But she is moving so fast I don't know what to do besides, go silent and work on myself.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
I was going to ask for more time/ take it slower with the separation tonight. (been 2 weeks since BD, but she says its been several years for her ) as I feel like she is moving so fast towards the divorce. Is this a good idea? any imput before I do it would be awesome!
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Does caving to her every demand put me at a disadvantage? Does it show her I am weak and in turn she loses more respect?
Really? How would you answer those questions if someone else asked them?
Some people may suggest using every stall tactic you can, to slow the S or D process. IMO, it just causes the WW to feel more contempt for the H. But that's your decision to make. If it is you trying to get control of the stitch, I don't think it will work.
You can't talk her into changing her mind. The more you try to persuade her to not D you, the faster you push her away. Be honest. What do you think you will accomplish by prolonging the S? If you are thinking that in time she will come around and things will just work itself out............you are in for a big let down. It doesn't happen that way.
Don't misunderstand and think I am pushing you to run out and be first to file. I'm not. I want you to take a deep breath and use your head and answer these questions as honestly as you can. Not to me, but to yourself.
You are wanting to make some move that will stall her from ending the M. Right? Those desperate thoughts will likely prevent you from calming down enough to really learn what you need to apply.
As far as she's concerned, the M is over. Taking time or space is what a WW says to just get away from her H. That's her first step. She has already thought it over. Am I saying this is totally hopeless? No. I think your actions could influence the final results. Don't be afraid of the D papers. That fear will imprison you.
Until you have enough discipline to stop initiating contact with her, nothing you do is going to work in your favor. (And don't use your little girl as an excuse to contact WW). So, I challenge you to go this entire week without initiating any contact. If she texts you, give only two to four word responses.......and only if she asks a direct question that requires an answer. Think you can do it?
You see, it's not about what she does, but what you do. It isn't about controlling her actions, but your own.
You know what the majority of newcomers say about the 37 rules? "They are so hard". They aren't hard. It is the individual person who doesn't want to do them. They are afraid to trust them. However, I have little doubt that every newcomer has done every one of those rules at some time in their marital past, and thought nothing of it. But now, they are disparate! Now they feel threatened. They are scared to death and clinging like crazy to keep their spouse from getting a D. Now the dynamics have changed, and the rules seem unbearable. Do you see what I mean?
Remember how you felt when you fell out of love with her? Yet, you want to believe you can still see her love for you shining in her eyes? If this were true, she would not be trying to get away from you! Does she still care about you? Probably, b/c you are the father of her child. But caring and feeling in love are two different things to a young woman. She can care about a friend or a relative. So, don't be delusional about how she feels about you. I'm not saying you are the type, but some men try to tell a woman what she really feels........as though she doesn't have enough sense to figure it out herself. Truth is, she may be confused and don't know what she's feeling........but it is not your job to tell her. It makes women furious for a man to argue about what she's feeling! Just thought I'd give you that little tip.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thank you for the feedback sandi, I do appreciate it. It feels good to just get stuff out there and have advice from people that have been there before.
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Really? How would you answer those questions if someone else asked them?
I would personally answer yes as that Is how I feel. I am unsure however if this is right response right now. I know we are not supposed to argue. But I am learning (slowly :/) that its not really about her anymore. I have to think about me and my kid.
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Some people may suggest using every stall tactic you can, to slow the S or D process. IMO, it just causes the WW to feel more contempt for the H. But that's your decision to make. If it is you trying to get control of the stitch, I don't think it will work.
You can't talk her into changing her mind. The more you try to persuade her to not D you, the faster you push her away. Be honest. What do you think you will accomplish by prolonging the S? If you are thinking that in time she will come around and things will just work itself out............you are in for a big let down. It doesn't happen that way.
I did not ask her to take more time. I realized I was just doing it because I thought it would give her the chance to see that I can change. But I think that she no longer really cares if I change.
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Don't misunderstand and think I am pushing you to run out and be first to file. I'm not. I want you to take a deep breath and use your head and answer these questions as honestly as you can. Not to me, but to yourself.
You are wanting to make some move that will stall her from ending the M. Right? Those desperate thoughts will likely prevent you from calming down enough to really learn what you need to apply.
As far as she's concerned, the M is over. Taking time or space is what a WW says to just get away from her H. That's her first step. She has already thought it over. Am I saying this is totally hopeless? No. I think your actions could influence the final results. Don't be afraid of the D papers. That fear will imprison you.
It has been extremely difficult to accept that because she has walked out, she has already made up her mind. However I think I'm out of big moves. It is insane how ingrained my life was with her. I have to go re-read detachment. I might print it out and keep it in my pocket with the 37.
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So, I challenge you to go this entire week without initiating any contact. If she texts you, give only two to four word responses.......and only if she asks a direct question that requires an answer. Think you can do it?
I accept, I need the space now.
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You see, it's not about what she does, but what you do. It isn't about controlling her actions, but your own.
You know what the majority of newcomers say about the 37 rules? "They are so hard". They aren't hard. It is the individual person who doesn't want to do them. They are afraid to trust them. However, I have little doubt that every newcomer has done every one of those rules at some time in their marital past, and thought nothing of it. But now, they are disparate! Now they feel threatened. They are scared to death and clinging like crazy to keep their spouse from getting a D. Now the dynamics have changed, and the rules seem unbearable. Do you see what I mean?
I think I am starting too. At first I thought that this all would empower me to change so I get my wife back. I have begun to realize that It cannot be about her any longer. She chose to walk out. However bad it was for both of us, she made that decision. Not to say she doesn't deserve the right to make it.
What I have to do now is get My life back. In a way she has given me a gift, to make myself a better person. I cant sit back and wait with my arms open while she moves in the opposite direction.
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Remember how you felt when you fell out of love with her? Yet, you want to believe you can still see her love for you shining in her eyes? If this were true, she would not be trying to get away from you! Does she still care about you? Probably, b/c you are the father of her child. But caring and feeling in love are two different things to a young woman. She can care about a friend or a relative. So, don't be delusional about how she feels about you. I'm not saying you are the type, but some men try to tell a woman what she really feels........as though she doesn't have enough sense to figure it out herself. Truth is, she may be confused and don't know what she's feeling........but it is not your job to tell her. It makes women furious for a man to argue about what she's feeling! Just thought I'd give you that little tip.
I only say this, as this is what she expressed to me. That yes there was love there still and that she still has feelings, but that she cannot act on it and does not know if she ever can act on it again. She still has to do this, because she has to work on herself, has to pursue her goals and just be happy again and already feels happier being away. (hearing this pretty much confirmed that she wouldn't be reconciling)
Just hard things to hear, but I will have to accept them.
The twinkle in her eyes may have just be my delusions you are correct, but I feel like I know her well enough to see it... I do agree that I cannot tell her how to feel and I definitely tried to stay far away from doing this.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
The twinkle in her eyes may have just be my delusions you are correct, but I feel like I know her well enough to see it... I do agree that I cannot tell her how to feel and I definitely tried to stay far away from doing this.
Correction: you used to know her well enough to see it. Now that she is likely a WW, you don't know her at all. This is something Sandi will repeat over and over. You have to drop the rope my friend. Let her make her own choices.
Me:29 W:27 M: 4 years T: 5 years No children S: 7/7/15 EA: 7/7/15 BD/"I'm done": 7/15/15 MC: 7/7/15-8/21/15 (failed) PA: 8/29/15 W Files for D: 9/9/15 D will finalize in 60 days
I understand what you all are saying. I really need to start putting it into practice in my thought processes.
Here's another short little bit.
This weekend, I went out to a concert with a friend (male, break dancer if it matters haha) I hadn't seen in a while. It was a sort of dance/edm type thing. Not really my favorite, but I wanted to see my buddy.
Me trying to be no contact, did not tell her about it. We are a little short on cash, but I had moved some funds around so I could go. (sell stuff on ebay, got some extra from an auction.) I felt like it was a reasonable expense, and I didn't want to sit at home alone.
She saw the bank statement and when she dropped off our daughter the next night, got really upset with me. Saying this just proves ill never change and that I'm irresponsible and should know better, that I did stuff like that all time. How shes just doing work,home,work,home and that she wants to get out too, but is more responsible, and thinks about things like this.
at the time, I not wanting to argue, agreed that it wasn't the best decision. But cited that I was just trying to get out and be positive. And that I had thought I had the funds. She countered that I should just be doing like her and going to work, then home and taking care of the daughter if I have her etc.
It was at this point she said she couldn't believe I would go to a concert and let other women hold hands with me and exchange bracelets etc.. and that she was really jealous and really upset.
I didn't apologize, but I stated I wasn't trying to make her jealous and that I didn't do any of that, just listened to the music, had a few beers, kinda danced in a group with friends. She didn't really seem like she believed me but I think that's normal with whats happening.
She sort of mumbled that she was upset and that this just confirms why she left and I just agreed that it was a stupid decision. And left it at that.
This is similar to how past disagreements went. She would say I did something irresponsible/stupid etc.. I would try to justify. Get upset, retreat further. She thought I wouldn't listen.. It all just kind of [censored] how its the same cycle even when we aren't together.
Now in retrospect, I feel like it should have been ok for me to go out. She is leaving me, why does she care? Is this the point where I start setting boundaries for what she can and cannot do/say to ME> I sort of see that I may be wrapped around her finger and its kind of disgusting me right now.
I love my wife and want to reconcile but I don't want to bend over backwards for her either. I know I have made MANY mistakes and hurt her. Maybe just having an angry day for me.
Any way end ramble it was supposed to be short. Not sure I got accross what I was originally trying to say but oh well. New at forum writing. Thanks guys/gals for reading!
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Had a good night last night was more optimistic than I was before BD. Started to get some feelings of anger, but didn't let them take over, but definitely a nice change of pace from all the pain.
Woke up this morning feeling pretty down. I miss her a lot. Re-Reading detachment again. Got my DR book in the mail last night. Didn't have time to start reading. But excited for that.
Unfollowed her instagram account. She has been posting pictures in her underwear (she wants to be a fitness model) Hurts too much to look and read the comments. She always said I didn't let her express this goal of hers, and that I got too jealous. Maybe so. But I told her many times this past year that I had no arguments about it. Just keep it classy. I think she was still holding on to my old point of view for some reason. Maybe to justify how she felt about the whole marriage.
Got my entrance interview accepted for physical therapy school. That's on Nov 6. Finally moving forward with that! Took my wife leaving for me to get the ball rolling haha.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
I cant get upset about it now. Just had to unfollow. I know shes going to get attention from other men and it messes with my head. But if I react to it, I empower her, so im just ignoring it.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Nails in the coffin. I wish I could stop thinking.
Before I started trying the LRT or going dark or NC. She said she's finally figured out what she wants to do. She doesn't see herself having a future with me. She has all these goals she wants to achieve, but cant with me, because im not ready as a person, she needs a man, not a child. These statements really hurt me as a person. Because these are things I believe(d) we could have/were doing together. Then boom she's gone. Says shes hasn't felt it for years. I mean then why didn't she make a big stink about it then >:( on second thought this is her big stink right now. I know I should take this as a chance to move on. But I LOVE my wife.
For me going dark seems like more of the behavior she didn't like in the marriage. And yes I realize I shouldn't be doing this, hoping that it will change something in her. But I want to ask if it will help or hinder? Or is that rhetorical, because this is more about me giving myself time to clear my head and focus on GAL etc. I guess have a lot of work to do before I can truly detach and live for me and not her.
ERRGGGGGGGGHHHHH I want to be free of the pain. I dont want to wait around months or years for it to go away. Im trying to be patient but it hurts.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
ERRGGGGGGGGHHHHH I want to be free of the pain. I dont want to wait around months or years for it to go away. Im trying to be patient but it hurts.
Hav - I havent read all of your thread yet, but in reading this post, I wanted to chime in quickly.
Think of it this way --- if you broke your arm, you wouldnt be mad at yourself for feeling pain, right? Youd allow it to slowly heal before you went out and started tossing around a football, right? So, allow yourself some time to heal and to grieve. I know it hurts now. And will tomorrow. But, its OK. It will be OK.
Thank you Azzork, I really don't like sitting here at work and just stewing in my thoughts. I can think of some really stupid stuff when I have too much time on my hands. Hard to focus on my job.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Today seems to be a bad day for a lot of us. Maybe there is some truth to aligning of the planets . This is the hardest part for me. Not knowing how I will feel from day to day, hour to hour. It's like I can't trust my feelings anymore. You seemed Much more positive yesterday. Maybe if you could recognize that this is just a feeling and the degree of despair is only temporary. It will pass...I know easy to say.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Hi Julie, thanks for stopping by! Yesterday I wanted to fight for myself, for something better, I had lots of hope and felt lighter and things seemed clear. Today I just want her to hold me. It's a hell of a roller coaster. I read something or other about just being like water and going with the flow. Stop trying to resist what I feel and let it take its course. Patience in this is difficult. I want to be upbeat and happy for my Daughter. I hate when she asks me why I am sad. It kills me.
Sandi, if you read this, I read your post on the WW, do you have or is there something similar for WAW(left for reasons other than A)?
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
The "custody" Man that feels weird to write. We haven't really worked any thing official out. Maybe I'm being naive. I do feel like a little kid in here some times haha. I have the "9-5" job and my schedule syncs up with school more. So I have her Sunday-Friday morning. (She has been more attached to me since she was 3, and is prt of why I think my wife left actually, she often mentioned jealousy of my daughter and i's closeness. I sort of brushed it off and said it would change with age, as this is what I was told, but I can see it causing a lot of resentment now.) my wife takes her Friday and Saturday..drops her off Sunday morning. Kind of one sided when I think about it. (She did mention less stress with no bills and no kids during the week...lame)
I haven't really said anything yet. I'm on a challenge that I won't contact her the whole week. And that may go even longer. She has texted me a few times asking about can she take this or that from the house while I'm not there. Or if bills have been paid. (She always paid the bills, often complained about it, when I tried to take over them, I could never "do" them right.) I only respond with yes no or it's good to go
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
I, too, have found God (once again, perhaps). I too, have gone through the begging, pleading, crying, etc. And, within the month, discovered both Ito, DR (Read it in one evening and have held on to it as close as my bible, re-reading it whenever I can), M. Cross, and a few others. This forum, however, keeps me coming back. In fact, I find myself reading it throughout the work day and as soon as I get back in from the office. I trust the right support group and advice is to be found on here. Hoping the same for you.
I'd just like to say that it feels good (odd as that may seem) to know others who are just recently going through this as well. I look forward to following your stories and honestly pray that we can all look back with huge smiles on our faces that we've made it through, busted the situation and worked towards a better life with our significant others, however that "better life" may be.
Yes it does feel good to know there are other people out there just like me, going through the same pain. I wish with all my heart that this wasn't the case. But such is life.
We will all get through this one way or another. In this I know. Ive put my faith in my Higher Power. And let him take the reins. She will find her way to back to me or she wont. It isn't up to me anymore!
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Different thoughts today/last night. I have the tendency to get upset/irritated very easily and is one of the 180's I am working on. So if any of this seems like me jumping the gun let me know. I am not in a rush. Just things I've been thinking of.
My wife and I were/are best friends. Inside jokes, interests, humor, movies, all the good stuff. Somewhere along our journey through life, I/we lost sight of that friendship. She wants to remain my bff even after telling me she is moving towards a divorce. I agreed and said, yes I would always be her friend! But the only motivation for that statement was that by being her friend, she may one day come back as my lover.
So is it rational of me to think: I don't want to get friend zoned by my Wife! Hell no, how am I going to be her friend when/if she has OM in her life. I don't want that. I don't deserve that.
Another train of thought. I have started to think of finances. I make 85% of the income. (part of why I was controlling) At BD, I said I would help her out. Pay for her car, bills, phone etc etc. She is currently with her mom. Plans to move out and into a house her stepdad has rent free. Her mom said she would help her furnish it. Even yesterday she called me to ask how I wanted to finish the payments for the couch we had bought not a month ago. Started to look at taking what I pay for/make out of the picture. If this is a bad idea let me know. I am willing to wait until we start the divorce process.
Whats interesting is that the first couple of nights these are things she brought up that worried her. And things that her parents told her I eventually would start to think about. I of course denied all of this, I would never not be there for her right!? (Am I becoming too bitter? I love my wife, loving her from a distance. I want to support her, but I don't want to be walked all over.)
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
As to your first concern, I would not agree to remain friends. I would not be forced to downgrade my M to a friendship. But that's just me. She will need to see you completely gone from her life before she would change her mind anyway. This will let her see what she is missing. Otherwise she gets the benefits of a friendship with you, and what do you get out of it? Nothing.
Me:29 W:27 M: 4 years T: 5 years No children S: 7/7/15 EA: 7/7/15 BD/"I'm done": 7/15/15 MC: 7/7/15-8/21/15 (failed) PA: 8/29/15 W Files for D: 9/9/15 D will finalize in 60 days
She's firing you as her husband so you are offering to be her banker? In what world does that make sense. YOU CANNOT NICE OR BRIBE THEM BACK TO YOU!!!!!!
M40 XW35 M11 T15 S9 D5 Bomb 6/3/14 Papers del 10/3/14 D final 12/5/14
I wish I could love you and make you believe it 'Cause that's all you ever wanted From me
Thanks guys it is something I need to hear. I have a hard time gauging how tough I need to be on her, especially since she walked away for reasons other than an OM.
I keep thinking that if I am nice, supportive, loving, respectful, that she will see it and come back. But, while I may have failed at these things in one way or another when we where together, none of that involves putting myself and my daughter in a bad position by bending over backwards for her.
I need to get it through my head that she made her choice. Shes already gone. We're never going back to what we had. And as much as it hurts and however long it takes, the only way forward is to completely let go.
I keep going back to image of the LBS holding flowers and waiting for the WAS to come back, while the WAS is waving goodbye and driving off into the sunset.
I don't want to be the one waiting. ( Don't misunderstand, I have hope that one day me and her will see all the silly things we did to each other and have a good laugh, while we hold hands and walk down a beach somewhere. I am crazy in love with her. And that love may never go away. But I'm not willing to put my life on hold to wait for her to make up her mind.)
The tricky part for me is (I am I too early in the separation to be thinking these things!?):
A. I don't want to be ''friends'' I get nothing out of this. How and when do I break this to her in a way that is loving and respectful. I see bad reactions here. Or does it matter anymore? I will sort of answer myself and say, why should she care, shes leaving. But I see her not understanding why I want this. More of any opinions on this, as it is probably difficult to answer and completely up to me.
B: If I cut her off, (which I plan on doing) do I wait until the divorce. Because If I do it before hand can she use it against me in court?
Peace and love guys/gals Ill try to comment on some other posts. I Feel selfish staying on my own
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
You don't tell her you show her. You stop entertaining her conversations or whatever else.
If you have to say something (& you probably will cause she'll ask why you are being mean by ignoring her) you can simply say "W, this is not what I wanted and moving forward you should know that I will treat you w/respect we are not friends." She'll press you & say she doesn't understand why(she's trying to eliminate her guilt with this) simply ask if she could be friends if position was reversed or friends don't treat each this way & then walk away & don't be drawn into a fight(what she desperately wants).
For B, that's why you need to consult an atty. My two cents.
Last edited by bravo61; 09/16/1507:50 PM.
M40 XW35 M11 T15 S9 D5 Bomb 6/3/14 Papers del 10/3/14 D final 12/5/14
I wish I could love you and make you believe it 'Cause that's all you ever wanted From me
Have you received your Divorce Remedy and read it? In reading some other threads, you may get confused about some of the terms you hear. The Last Resort Technique and Dropping the Rope and Going Dark, etc., may be confusing. Dropping the Rope is when you really do let go of her and move on with your life. Going Dark is when you fall off the planet and she never hears or seeing anything out of you (Which is nearly impossible if you co-parent a child).
Quote:
Sandi, if you read this, I read your post on the WW, do you have or is there something similar for WAW(left for reasons other than A)?
Did you read all the threads? I think there are 4 or 5. The first link is in Cadet's homework.
Here's how I see it. If she does not have justifiable reasons to break up her family and inflict her little girl with the pain of having divorced parents, then I would consider her wayward. Waywardness is not based on being in an A, only. Even if you have not seen evidence of an A, her attitude and actions are shouting "wayward".
She has expressed her lack of respect for you as a man. She resents being married to you, and she is displaying rebellion instead of conforming to her marriage. Those three areas are the common denominator in WW's.
Quote:
I keep thinking that if I am nice, supportive, loving, respectful, that she will see it and come back.
Seems like that would be the logic thing to do, doesn't it? However, you have a W who is anything except logical.
If she was wanting to save the M, then all those nice things might matter to her, IDK. I just know they don't matter to her now. That is what so many newcomers don't get. The WW is not interested; she doesn't care; and she doesn't want the nice H. She's done, through, kaput, and over it.
That's not to say things can't change some day, but I believe with most WW's, it doesn't happen quickly or easily.
All those things she spouted off to you about going out and spending money, etc, was b/c of four main reasons. 1) she wants to be in control of you; 2) she wants to make you feel guilty; 3) she is jealous; 4) she is testing your emotional attachment to her (we call it temperature check).
In nearly every thing she does or says to you, one of these 4 things will come into play with a WW.
You need to separate your bank accounts.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Just writing down thoughts. Really bad day. Need to vent or write it down, get it out. No one to talk to.
I am heeding advice from here. At least externally. I appreciate all the feedback Ive gotten. It just feels so opposite of what everything inside of me is screaming to do. It feels wrong. It feels like my heart is telling me to go fight for her. That the longer I am away from her, the further she drifts away.
If I am honest with myself right now. I am so scared and so lonely. Why is she doing this? I feel like there is so many other options that could have been taken. Trying to find some way of explaining the situation. Like its completely out of control. Like shes in a dream that she cant wake up from and if I could just wake her up and show her that its OK. Why is it so hard to let go of someone when they've made it so clear that they are done. Why cant I believe shes done?
She doesn't see anything else. Only her happiness. Nothing else matters to her.
Shes so cold. So distant. She seems to have detached so easily. No texts about anything other than bills or stuff she wants from the house. Not contacting her seems to be having the effect of making it easier for her to leave.
Why is it so hard to believe she wants nothing from me anymore. How can I accept that concept. We had so much together.
hoping for the best. but drowning right now.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Reading DR. Reading detachment reading LRT reading reading reading looking into lawyers as much as it kills me. trying to find a wa
Trying to delve more into what I see as my issues
disrespect (the biggest factor in all of this I think)--- I did not respect her views, goals, opinions enough. Tried to be too much of a realist when she would talk about things like owning a gym or having a big beautiful house full of babies. ( i don't know why i did this. its like I was trying to prove to her that I was so smart or that I knew everything... it's ridiculous... childish) talked down to her, did not treat her like my partner.
irritation--- she always had to walk on egg shells hoping I wouldn't get upset over this or that. leading to her never trying to do anything with me. and stopping communication (she figured I wouldn't want to or i didn't care enough to try)
communication--- i did not share how i truly felt about things often enough. and when i did it was mostly negative
negativity--- spiraled downwards into the awful hateful person that no one wants to be around
consistency--- was unreliable with money, time, emotions
commitment--- would start and stop projects, housework, things she asked me to change
neediness--- hyper emotional reactions to negativity from her regardless of her feelings.
Why did I do these things? Why couldn't I see the love she had for me. The things she did to try and help. Why was I so blind?? I acted like a little child.
I am glad I can see what I did and will never fall back into that way of thinking again. I just feel so stupid so evil almost. For taking her love and just completely turning it against me. I hate that she thinks she has to be alone to be happy. I hate that I put her and my daughter in this situation.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Funny, your issues are so familiar to me, even the dream questions (I would ask my husband what trip he would take if we won the lottery or what would be his dream restaurant to open if could and he had similar answers that you did )
I too have similar questions regarding the friend issue, and like you there is no proof of OP. I don't want to be just a friend. I want him to experience what divorce would truly be like. No cake eating. It's not fair! Plus I'm angry that he left and that he too played a role. Hard to have a friendship under these circumstances. Do we go dim? I don't feel comfortable being friendly. Polite yes, but friendly is challenging.
I had my 3rd session with a DB coach and guess what she told me? Be a friend. Talk and act torward him as I would a friend. She told me to be more friendly and "act as if". She said good feelings are contagious. Positive energy is very powerful and that at the very least it's good for the kids to see us like this. She even said that I could give him an authentic compliment once in a while and that it would be ok to initiate a friendly call (different from pursuing or discussing relationship).
Now, as everyone knows, all of our situations are different and I am in no way advising you. I just wanted to let you know that this was what I was advised and yes to me this is counter intuitive.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Sandi, do you have any insight as to why hav hope's wife would want to control him and make him feel guilty by complaining about him going out and spending money on something she does not see as valuable?
I am asking this because I too would get angry at husband when he would spend money on concerts or going out. I justified my anger by thinking , well he tells me he can't afford karate lessons for kids but can afford to spend it on himself..but I wonder if there is something more to it. What's behind the need to control.
Sorry for the hijacking, but perhaps this type of argument is universal amongst husband/wife relationships?
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Hi Julie, thank you so much for posting. every time i see a reply I get a little bit more upbeat about life haha
I am pretty down in the dumps the past few days.
still trying to read DR, im horrible.
I know im hard headed. i know i should be focusing on me. what i hope is that by kind of recording what i think on here, that one day i will see the switch in focus. until then. keep busting my balls about how i need to db.
the stuff i read from mwd or her videos is all so positive. i wish i had the option to do db coaching
she was upset that i went out and SPENT money. I don't think it would have been a big deal if there had not been money involved. i often did stupid little things with money like that before she left. and it always pissed her off. ive realized she may be a tad materialistic. always wanted the best of everything even if we didnt necessarily have the money for it. best blenders, tv, bed, toothpaste you name it haha. she was always worried about the money and i think she hated that i was so meh about it. my thoughts at the time was that there is always going to be bills or things we needed to buy, so why worry about it? save a dollar here or there and just keep on working, and one day we'd be where we wanted to be. I feel like she was in a rush to be in what she thought was a higher status. weird thing is when she left, she said she didn't care if she had to be poor as long as she was happy, because she would reach her goals and be someone someday soon. but she couldn't do it if she wasn't happy at home.
i want to be friendly, positive ''act as if'' but i don't know how to do that if i am not supposed to pursue her.
literally the only interaction i have with her is for about 2 minutes when she drops our daughter off on Sunday. what am i supposed to do in the situation??! I mean I smile, I say Hi! I dont really try to ask her how she is because that is pursuit I believe. But its such an awful situation. I feel like im so limited in the things I can do. And she doesnt open up at all, she just says hi, good to see you, how are you doing, bye. end of interaction. see you 7 days from now.
other than that how is she supposed to notice what I am doing? or become curious? she seems to be perfectly happy from what I can tell. she is going out with all the people from her work. still looks great. she was always the bubbly, bright person in the room. literally can make friends with anyone. could walk into a place and in 2 minutes know everyones name and lifestory. i was always in awe of how she did it. you had to actually try to not be her freind. so positive all the time. thats another hard thing for me. i just watch her from this distance, and she makes it all seem so easy.
We did talk on the phone for about hmm 60 seconds last night.. she told me our daughter was ok (she was sick at school) she said she was at one of our (or was mutual) friends houses for a surprise party. said her mom was watching Daughter. asked me if I was ok. then said a kind of strange thing. that she has a stomach ulcer... i didnt know how to react. besides being worried. told her i was really sorry and that she must feel pretty poopy. hoped she would go see the doctor. but she cant go see a doctor with out me setting it up because of the way health insurance works with the military after youre retired! once i said that she changed her mind and said she would probably just go to urgent care instead.
how to deal with mutual friends is another question. i feel like most of the people we know are gravitating towards her. i was so bummed out that i didnt get invited to that surprise party.
her mom has also been texting me almost every night. which is weird for me as well. i try to act non chalant... she keeps bringing up the R though. but i try to divert conversation. act happy!
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
I know how hard this is. Everyday will feel different and it is impossible to trust your feelings as they are all over the place. Try posting everyday. Even if no one responses, it is great to look back on as a journal.
It is great that you can look at your wife's positive qualities but please do not compare yourself to how she is handling this. Remember, she has had more time to come to this decision and to justify his decision. This is new to you. You guys are different people, sure she is outgoing and warm to others but you seem very introspective and capable of deep reflection. Something that will be so advantageous to your future. You will be able to look back and know you did everything in your power to provide your daughter with a stable family.
All you can do at this point is give your wife space, treat her with respect, and not react wheN she inevitably pushes your buttons. (Great way to practice validating is on 5 year olds during their melt downs ).
I see you recognize a lot of characteristics that you are unhappy with but how are you going to make your 180s? What specific plans of action do you have to be a positive force and build a life of meaning for you and your daughter? Are there projects that need finishing? Perhaps a college fund for your daughter you can start? (I only suggest this because my husband has a difficult time saving and if he did this is would truly demonstrate selflessness and responsibility). What could you do that would make you feel good about your role in life and who you are? There is more to life then being invited to parties. Throw your own party! Any charities or volunteer opportunities? Meetup groups? I know this is easy to say, especially when depression takes over early on. But I know you will get through this resiliently. Have patience, cause time is on your side and the only way to get come out on top is by doing the right thing.
Last edited by JulieH; 09/21/1502:48 PM.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Julie again thank you! I cant express the gratitude enough haha.
I will list what I am doing for 180's soon
my wife just got really sick with stomach ulcers and asked if i could help her with setting up an appt with a doctor. i did find a doctor... was this a bad idea to help her? it was something i would not have done while she was with me. i had told her multiple times she needed to find a doctor herself... so i did the opposite and helped... but worried i let her use me.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Respect-- putting others before myself. being open to the fact that I am wrong(often) supporting their decisions, goals, dreams. encouraging good/positive actions/words in others. respecting myself as well. voicing what I believe in. standing up for what I think is right. treating my body/mind/soul
Irritability-- when I find myself falling into the ''mood'' whether its something I am doing or something that is happening during an interaction or conversation, I will stop what I am doing take a deep breath and count to 10. If I am getting angry, I will count to 100, ask if it worth my anger and move on.
communication--- LISTENING to others. looking at them when they talk. making eye contact. responding to them. VALIDATING what they say. and being more open about how I feel, not letting fear determine what i say or do.
negativity--- adopting positive outlook on life, reading several books. what i think will happen will become my world. if i think negative i see negative results... applying the opposite to all things.
consistency--- paying bills on time, not buying uneccesary items. doing house work (laundry, dishes, etc..) regulating emotions, taking time to react or act on things/situations
commitment--- going to finish working on my truck. i have already fixed several issues with it in the past couple weeks. going to START school
neediness-- I am applying the rules of detachment to help build a healthy relationship with not only my wife but everyone I meet.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
I definatly think it's the right thing to help your wife when she is sick. Personally I would even follow up by asking if she is feeling better or if she needs anything else. She is the mother of your child and her health is crucial. Plus if a sick neighbor reached out you would help them right?
I like your 180 on negativity..,.something I struggle with as well
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Yeah I mean I want to help her. But at the same time I found out she DOES have health care through her work but just never applied for it. So half of me wanted to tell her to go figure it out herself.
I think I'm going to read that nice guy book soon.
She very detached right now. Every conversation we have had she sneaks something in. She asked me if she should change her name back. Or put single on social media. Or talks about when she's going to move into her new place. Asked me if I was going to still be committed to her if she starts dating other men. Told me she doesn't think I can do it because I "have needs".
I don't know this woman. The more time I spend away the less I feel like she is who I believed her to be. I never thought she'd be able to do what she is doing. I remember we once made a pinky promise that'd we'd never be like our parents Hahahaha.
How do I set boundaries without burning all the bridges. Or do I want her to have to swim back?
On the flip side the pain has been way less intense. Signed up me and the little girl for judo classes. I'm going to go rock climbing this weekend. And I may have found a new place to live
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
It sounds like she is trying to talk to you like a friend, but in a really delusional and insensitive way that is very inappropriate. This is not acceptable, but you can't show her it hurts you so you have to remain polite and not allow it to escalate into an argument. When she hurts you say something like "you know, I don't even know what to say". If she fights with you, validate, remain calm and detached. I know easier said then done.
BTW, I only thought you should assist her in the case of a health issue or medical emergency. I don't necessarily think being a nice guy will help.
As long as you are physically separated what type of boundaries do you feel you need to set? Just doing nothing right now other then things for yourself is your best bet. And however tempting and consuming it might be, do not ask about OM and do not pursue. This will get easier as time goes on, and the thoughts of what she is doing will diminish.m
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
I have no choice but to be in contact with her when she picks up our daughter. Every time I see her she keeps dumping on me. about how she's so stressed out. How it's making her sick, how scared she is.
How her job is in jeopardy. I workout at her old place and her old boss is trying to get her fired to cover his ass and he is trying to use our split to fuel this. I don't know what to do.
She's asked for so much with the split. She wants me to pay for her car. All our daughters daycare. Help her with credit cards and still pay spousal support. She's taking pretty much everything from the house. I don't really want to fight her on any of this. As this is what old me would have done.
I'm so conflicted with wanting to help her out and just wanting to cut all the bullshit and let her deal with her own problems.
She pretty much said straight out she is talking to other guys already. This kills me. I dont know what I expected. I wish I could stop loving her right now.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
She was honest with you. I'm so sorry. I can imagine how awful it was to hear it. The only good thing is you have intel. This is about other men so the advise seems to be harsher. What have you been advised by attorney? I would not support your wife any more than you legally need to. But I would never withhold anything that would benefit your daughter.
I believe the advise is typically to cut her out and let her deal with her own problems. Don't be nasty or show her hostility but don't be her friend either. She kind of needs to hit rock bottom.
It's so awful and hard and nothing any of us can say will change things, but there is not much you can do. Just keep being an awesome dad.
Can I recommend you read tiger eyes entire thread, if you haven't allready? He seems like a guy that really embraced GAL through a lot of hardships. I think it will make you feel better.
Keep posting.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Thank you again Julie.. I have no energy left to hold anything back. I cry when I feel the pain. I let the anger out on the gym. I'm at peace when I feel everything will workout. Letting my emotions take me for the ride.
I try to set boundaries in y head with how in going to be when I have to talk to her but as soon as I see her or hear her voice I break down. Is it bad that I still hope that even if we've been divorced for years she'll wake up and realize she misses me and have the desire to be with me again? I guess for me do I want to be with someone who told me she can't love me they way I love her. And walked out of my life. I still don't know the answer.
I'll try and read tigers thread. I feel like I have no time, the days are going by in a blur.
Have not had a chance to talk to the attorney yet. I have a phone consult in the coming week.
Also reading no more mr nice guy. Some of the stuff applies to me. Not sure about other things he says. Has anyone read winning your wife back before it's too late by Gary smalley?
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
I'm sorry, it was eye tie's thread not tiger eye (Was typing from phone and spell check took over).
The truth is thAt no matter what happens, everything will work out. You are young, you will learn from your experiences, and you will grow as a person. You will have valuable new insight and you will become strong because you have no other choice.
Experience your pain and know that it is temporary. Just do not share this pain with her. Stay cool and calm as if this is no big deal. As if your life will be great with or without her...because it will.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Was at the house trying to pack stuff up and she showed up to get some of her cloths. Daughter was with grandma so She sat down and talked with me for a long time. I broke down and let a lot of what I had been thinking out. Felt better afterwards though. I wasn't so concerned about getting her back. more concerned about myself not sharing my emotions when I get the chance. I know it's supposed to make me look weak. And against the rules. But for me it felt empowering to confess my fears to her and not worry about whether she approved. So I felt stronger afterwards.
I am afraid of the future. But I don't care if anyone knows it. I think everyone battles that fear. And for me at least, the first step in conquering it is admitting it's there.
I hope I'm starting to turn the corner of accepting that there's nothing I can do to change her. But there's a lot I can do to change me.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
I hope I'm starting to turn the corner of accepting that there's nothing I can do to change her. But there's a lot I can do to change me.
This is great. Working on goals is the best thing you can do. I don't think any of us truly follow the rules all the time. And even if you do it doesn't guarantee anything anyway. It's hard to even know what the rules are when our situations are different as well. I find my DB coach tells me things not advised on the forum. Your in the frontline.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
she works at the gym I go to, selling memberships (at another location)
i had to sign up for a new membership, to get childcare started for my daughter, as the employee family membership i was under with my future ex wife had childcare at 70$
she transferred from the gym I go to now because of issues with the GM there, (something I didnt support her with as well as I should have)
I signed up for the membership with the GM and he gave me a good deal for 20$ a month with childcare and guest privileges.
So she messaged me today with this: why did you sign up with GM? When you know I work off of commission and am struggling? Plus i wasnt going to take you off of my account anyways..
i dont really know what to say... i want to tell her off... why does she care who i sign up with? its not my responsibility to help her with her struggles anymore.
i did not want to drive all the way out to her work, see her face to face just to sign up for a membership. plus i had to get childcare rolling so i could workout that day.
i made it clear i was going to be seeing her as little as possible and that i did not intend to help her past what i was legally obligated to.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
I know it's supposed to make me look weak. And against the rules. But for me it felt empowering to confess my fears to her and not worry about whether she approved. So I felt stronger afterwards.
So what was the point of telling her about your fear, etc? If you didn't worry about what she thought, was it b/c you just wanted her to know you are scared, or were you being selfish by wanting to dump on her?
You felt better by releasing the pent up emotions, but trust me, it did not help the MR. If you can maintain not worrying about her approval, then maybe you will reach the place of not telling her your fears. You don't need to look for a chance to share your emotions or feelings with her. Not during this time.
Not picking on ya, just giving you information for future reference.
Last edited by sandi2; 10/15/1512:18 AM.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
It was for her approval if I look at it. I suppose I thought if I finally told her all this stuff maybe she'd see why I was the acting the way I was and she'd want to work through all that with me. But yeah she basically said thank you for telling me, you should have said something sooner.
I don't feel picked on haha. I definitely need the constructive thoughts.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
She is basically asking me why I gave her old boss a sales commission instead of her. And the honest answer is I wasn't even thinking about her when I signed up.
I guess I should just tell her that... Now to build the courage.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
When are you going to learn that those moments of what you call "relief" are very temporary? Do not allow your emotions to lead.
I can almost assure you that she's not telling the complete truth. It does no good to pressure her.
Do you want her back b/c she feels sorry for you? What if she came back b/c she was scared of what you might do? Maybe if she was pressured enough, would that work for ya? Ask yourself if you want her back under any reason, other than she's in love with you?
Pressuring her certainly does not make you very attractive. Neither does being drunk. The board s filled with how others got past this same type situation, and many of the men tossed the bottle.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I don't want her back unless she is in love with me. Even then I'm not sure anymore. It hurt more than expected when she told me.
So I do nothing? Cut her out. Cut her off. Only pass the kid back and forth. Settle the house, settle the finances. And that's it? Heal myself, move forward and let life take me where it will.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Heal myself, move forward and let life take me where it will.
No. Absolutely not. Heal yourself, yes. Move forward, yes. That's the direction you're going, remember? But "let life take me where it will"? Huh? How about leading? How about making life what you want it to be? Then maybe W will want to be with the happy guy with the great outlook.
I want to work on me. I'm serious about it. But it's almost like she's a drug I can't kick. I know I'm not the first or last person to go through this. But it's definitely hard to look past the pain and emotion when it comes out.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
I want to work on me. I'm serious about it. But it's almost like she's a drug I can't kick. I know I'm not the first or last person to go through this. But it's definitely hard to look past the pain and emotion when it comes out.
This is where detaching comes in. Read the thread in Cadet's welcome post. Detaching doesn't mean to stop having feelings for her but her actions shouldn't control your emotions. We have all been where you are right now and have felt the same pain and desperation. I promise you that if you do the work set out here you will feel 100 times better. It is a devastating road but it won't be lonely if you listen to what the wonderful people on this board are telling you.
Me:33 H:36 T:13 years M:10 years S4 Separated 05/15 H Filed 06/15
You have your answers. She was very clear about her motives and I'm sorry that you have to live through such betrayal. You don't deserve this. None of us do. You are experiencing so many feelings, but they are just feelings and you will live through this and survive...you may even thrive. But you have to remember that you can have these feelings, but you are also in control of yourself. Do not share your feelings with HER. It is not attractive to her.
Why don't you try looking at things from a day to day perspective. For example, set the goal of no pursuing behaviors for 3 days, then extend it to a week, then 2 weeks etc, (I did this when I wanted to eliminate sugar from my diet and it worked great). When you get the urge to call, or ask her questions not concerning the kids just post on here! Or tell yourself you need to make it to day 5. It might not be true detachment but you have to fake it till you make it.
It won't be easy and you will have to, forgive yourself for any setbacks but at this point you have to preserve your dignity. It will feel good and get easier each time.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
I hope I am doing the right thing. I think I may have made to many mistakes or lost too much ground to hope she'll want me again. But maybe its meant to be this way.
Below is not what I should of done, I did not detach and let my emotions rule my actions: When should told me about OM I unfriended and blocked on all social media. This was out of anger. I posted some nasty stuff about killing the part of you that thinks it cant survive without someone else. This apparently upset her.
and then... Last night, we met to swap off the daughter, I think or I hope I did better. I didn't cry I didn't yell. I acted as calmly as possible.
The conversation as best as I remember it: She started crying and asked how I could post something like that. And that she would never cheat on me, that's not who she is. And that she would not talk to him any more because it wasn't worth me being upset with her. And that this is why she didn't want to say anything about it to me in the first place. She says they just have been small talking, nothing else.
I asked how she expects me to believe that or why she even cares if I believe that, because she already chose to leave. ( but Especially with what he said to her the prior year. The way he talks looks like he is trying to swoop in a marry her asap. I didnt say this..)
i said that she was free to do what she wanted, but that she had to realize there is always things that will happen in response to that. i told her i didnt really believe that she wasnt involved with him or that she would stop.
this made her very upset and she cried and said that now everyone is going to think that she slept around on me and she didnt. and that me acting this way hurt her so bad.
i said, thats not on me, if you feel guilty thats you, i said i thought i could wait around for you to figure out what you needed to be happy, but i cant. I cant sit back and be your shoulder to cry on.
she said i forced her to make the decision to leave and its partly my fault and that she didnt expect me to wait, never expected me to.
i said then i guess im just saying it to hear it for myself.
i told her again she is free to do what she wants, and that i was very serious about cutting my self off emotionally from her.
she said ok thats fine, then we kind of small talked about our daughter, said our goodbyes and that was that.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Havhope, have you read DR or DB?? If not, you need to read the books and quick! You are doing stuff which is causing a downward spiral and it doesn't have to be that way. It sounds as though you need to get yourself to a place where you can consistently interact in a calmer way. At the moment, you're having fraught R discussions and then reacting by unfriending her on FB, which causes her to react...all spiraling downward.
The good news is that it is within your gift to change this and how you interact with her can make a difference. But you need to stop with some of the stuff you're doing now. It isn't working my friend. So, if you didn't read DR, read it - and read it slowly with a pencil in hand, and really think about how you can start to apply the advice in your situation.
You can do this my friend
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
I have read DR and all of the homework but I get so caught up in the moment that I cant think straight. I will make it a priority to read again and slow down.
Yes I realize the mistakes after I make them. And now I feel like I cant go back. Like it will make me seem weak.
If I try to restore that connection with her again she will see me trying to make up for my actions.
I mean is it OK to ask to be unblocked and say i made a mistake, will it make me look like im big enough to admit when i am wrong, or will it have the opposite effect.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
No, I would let go of any FB stuff that has happened. It's not going to help you to be linked on FB anyway.
Just focus on handling future interactions better. This means learning how to respond, rather than react. At the moment, you are reacting and it is having negative consequences.
I would certainly go back and re-read the book though. A second reading was useful for me.
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
i definitely feel as if Ive only been reacting to everything that's happened.
kept thinking i was in a good place, but i think it was just me telling myself i was ok, and i still am really not ok.
like Sandi said its time for me to get serious.
i realize i am having a really hard time detaching. and that ive always had a hard time with not reacting out of anger or irritation. i am going to try and see a a therapist for anger issues i think. it just takes so long for me to see a doctor... i am barely getting to talk to my primary care and still have to get a referral.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
You are early on in your sitch, havhope. Don't panic.
Don't even bring up FB. It's actually better for you not to be connected so you don't start stalking her and obsessing.
Just breath. Your sitch didn't happen overnight and it won't be fixed overnight. Give her some space, stay out of relationship talks. If she brings them up, just validate her (read Wonka's validation page for tips).
yes the long game i keep forgetting, as every day seems to last a lifetime.
thank you guys i really am panicking and it helps to hear this stuff even if i think i know what i should be doing, i forget to practice it in the moment.
i am so grateful to have found this place. and really appreciate all the advice. i hope you guys and gals all know how great you truly are.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Stop making excuses for your vindictive behavior. Stop attacking your W, and the mother of your child, on a public network! Stop talking and acting as if you are in 7th grade.
It's time to man-up, grow up, and keep your mouth zipped up on FB and to her. No more excuses that you were drunk, or angry, or acted out of hurt feelings. Why would any woman want to be with a man who would act that way? She deserves better, and she may or may not get better.......but she'll be vulnerable to whatever is out there, and your cr@p behavior is like sending her an invitation. Now get your act together, and start DBing. You will get support here. You can get counseling, advice, and even a hug sometimes..........but you don't get babied. This is an adult only site.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Please go easy on yourself. This is hard. Seriously, any normal person is going to have the same emotions and reactions. Your human, and you've been dealt with a serious blow. Just look forward now. No use looking back. Be polite. Do stuff for you and your daughter. Be the best you can be for yourself and really that's all you can do. There are no magic words you can say or logical points you can make that will bring her back. She has to decide this on her own. She has to have time to miss you. She has to see that that you are moving on to great things with or without her. You can do this.
When you feel the need to rant, do it here.
BTW, my husband also said "I didn't abandon you. You pushed me out. ". Bizarre. We have to remember their perspective is completely different.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
yes, she says things like you made me do this, and i had no other choice. she has asked each time i have seen her why i couldn't have cared more for her or why i didn't show her love when she asked for it.
i can see what i did that would make her feel this way. but to me what i did, doesn't really excuse the fact that she wants to give up.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
re-reading all the posts from people on my sitch, and its like i was already getting the info and advice i needed, and saying i understood. but wasnt quite getting it yet. or my heart was still rejecting it.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
no she never wanted to. i tried multiple times. we where able to go once but i felt like i had to drag her there. and the whole session she basically just talked about how awful i was to her, while i sat there and felt like i was being attacked (didn't know how to deal with it then.. i think i had just turned 23) , funny thing was, after that 1 session we were better together than we had been in a long time. but she didn't want to go back.
she had bad experiences with counseling when she was younger, where her step mom would use them as opportunity to blame her for all of her (stepmoms) problems between her(step mom) and her dad.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Marriage counseling was a joke for us as well. It gave my husband an excuse to say he tried and that's about it.
Yes you contributed to marital breakdown, so did she. Maybe reread the validation section so you know how to respond when she says things like that. I remember there was one time my husband agreed with me Regarding my complaint/concerns regarding him getting home so late. I still remember it because at that moment I didn't feel like he was my enemy. I felt like he wasn't doing it on purpose, that it was just a dissapointment for him as well.
Also zues had a great card analogy that you should read. It is on my current thread. I actually made a copy of it. I am so tempted to give it to hubby, but I know that's a big no no. I think it's something you should check out.
Me: 42 H: 43 Twins age 5 Physically Separated 7/2015
Thank you. I need to see this. My behavior has been very immature. And I can tell it pushes her away each time.
I believe what you said is exactly what is happening. She does deserve better and I do not think I am in a place where I can give it to her, this is something she even said.
I will work on myself. No more games.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
Good deal! Working on yourself and actually improving, is the place to start. Nothing else will work until then. Oh, and the next thing most LBS will say is, "How can I show her my changes?" Don't worry about it. Just make the changes stick, first. And I mean changes in yourself as a man.
You can do this.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I will not worry about her seeing the changes. They are for me not her. If she sees them great. Maybe she'll see who I really am or who I can be. Maybe not.
I am curious, I know every situation has its differences, but do you basically already know the timeline to some degree, of what a lbs will go through when they first post?
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
sandi i am reading the part where you say you knew the right thing to do...
sad thing for me is, i think my wife knows the right thing to do is not be in a relationship with me
im not trying to be defeatist, but this is the vibe i get from her, when she says, it would be easy to come back, but she cant, because she knows she wont be happy, that she cant love me like i love her etc etc..
Last edited by havhope; 10/22/1511:48 PM.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
I also hope newcomer H's will be able to see that he shares part of the breakdown. Maybe he is responsible for how she felt at times in the M, but it's still up to her as to how she deals with her feelings. It was her choice to cling to the hurt or anger and let it grow into a deep resentment. Maybe he didn't even know how she felt. Maybe she never explained in a way that got his attention. Her emotional needs were not completely met.......his needs were not completely met, and they just tried to make the best of things......or so he thought.
Then one day maybe some guy at work winks at her and it makes her feel good, so she responds in some flirty way. It's just all in fun, right? But over time, one little thing leads to another, b/c her ego is being fed and it feels good. She tells herself it means nothing and she has done nothing wrong. The guy gives her compliments, or seems very interested in what she says or the work she does.......whatever, he pays special attention to her, making her feel sexy, or beautiful, or important. The whole experience is lifting her self-confidence as a woman. She begins looking forward to seeing him on the job b/c she feels excited and alive. Let me stop and ask you, is her H responsible thus far?
As her feelings grow into an emotional affair, is the H responsible? As the contacts and time spent with her coworker expands and the EA eventually turns physical, is the H responsible?
this really struck a cord with me. my wife swears nothing physical ever happened. but it seems she got addicted to everything else if she's telling the truth.
yeah i played my role and i accept that. but this brings insight into things i did not previously think possible.
M: 29 W: 28 D: 8 S:1 M: 10 T: 11 BD1: 8//15 (physically separate) Back together: 4/16 BD2: 3/18, physically separate 6/18) Here we are again.
. This is the hardest part for me. Not knowing how I will feel from day to day, hour to hour. It's like I can't trust my feelings anymore. You seemed Much more positive yesterday. Maybe if you could recognize that this is just a feeling and the degree of despair is only temporary. It will pass...I know easy to say.