Zues I will need to read above a few times to get my head around what you are actually saying and the applications and practicalities. But my initial response, is that I am not diminished by the lack of sexual attraction my partner may feel towards me, I am diminished by the as you say the "mask" my partner feels he needs to wear either for himself or to think he is protecting me.
I like you Zues, believe nothing is insurmountable within a marriage. But it is only insurmountable if both parties are on tha same page, singing from the same hymn sheet. I would be mortified if I knew that my H was feeling that he had settled, not necessarily because of its reflection on me but on the fact that he is unfulfilled in an important place in his life. What partner am I that I would not want that for him. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that each of us needs to fulfilled in all of our important places all the time, but sex and sexuality are essential aspects or ourselves as individuals as well as committed partners.
Zues I know this is a very sensitive area for you, your sexual needs and desires. You speak in such general terms it is hard to get a sense of why you feel so many women would reject you on the basis of them. I can only say that my impression is the frequency with which you feel desire, the intensity of that desire and then the context of the activities you feel would turn most women off you -sexually, emotionally and psychologically.
Both you and PP both said to me this week, there will be a man who wants those qualities. I know there are men that also love big curveous women like me, even though I doubt in my mind. I am regularly flirted with, propositioned. Thus undermining the belief I take as fact "sexy smart kind men don't want fat, nice me". So if this is a nonsense for me, why would you be any different.
Look I don't know what you are into sexually, and I'm not asking you to disclose, but if your interests are alternative, I can tell you from experience and from friends, and women I know, that there is a match out there for you.
I was interested to read on your thread that your romantic sexually intimate committed experience is with two women. Forgive me if I have misunderstood. But if this is the case, your view of what women are sexually open to within an intimate committed relationship is filtered through this lense. Of course the use of porn puts another lense on this lense, and issues become blurred. My impression Zues, in as much as I need to curb my desire to be in a relationship, I feel (and this is only my opinion) you may well benefit from spending time with women, platonically, romantically and sexually. we love smart, kind sexy men who treat us well, and communicate. As I see it, you are all of those things. Unless the persona you have here, is not as you really are. I don't think that is the case, but this cypher world is sometimes a room of smoke and mirrors.
I know you will restate your position about dating etc on your thread. But let me tell you as someone who did not have sex until they were 29 and then had their first intimate relationship at 35. I thought I knew without experiencing these things what they were like, where the highs and lows would be, the traps, etc. nothing could be further from the truth. Experiential learning is the key.
Zues you are so encouraging of others to try something new, to step out of their comfort zone, maybe it's time for Zues to try something outside his normal response. Become more informed about the women who are really out there who may or may not reject him. We can talk the theory of how to confirm our beliefs about ourselves or we can confirm or blow them out of the water with some action.
Always with love Zues.
Jellyb xxx
Ps thanks for giving me a voice and courage to not feel scared to have this conversation with you!
Well I feel a little lost and unfocused at present. While the long term goals, my surgery and find a lovley place to live are in place. I am struggling to break them down into smaller actions that will move me there. I have a terrible habit of procrastination and have achieved most things in my life through impulsive decision making and crisis. I have found in the past writing goals down, pretty soul destroying, when I look how I didn't achieve them to the level I wanted, the list becomes a tool for self fagelation. So I am noticing this procrastination, and wondering how this serves me. Is it to avoid the feelings of failure, scared to actually have what I want, or am I just lazy and unfocused.
I am also thinking about why I still come to this site. Why do I read people's sitches, and feel great empathy and connection to them, and then not post or comment. I don't post regularly myself , and really I don't feel entitled to be here, and likely why I dont feel the right to make comment on others sitches.
My posts are likely related to my internal struggles with self acceptance and self love, and how they have impacted on the loss of my last relationship. My relationship experiences are a far cry from most here. I'm an inexperienced teenager in my feeling and thinking about things, I have responded to my two committed relationships as a teenager or young adult would. The posts I read are of real struggles to save marriages, children and lives.
I am not sure why any of this relevant, but I was on top this morning as I woke for another day. Hmmmmmsomething to ponder.
There are different techniques to counter procrastination.
First let's ask exactly what you are doing? Why do you feel the need to break things down into smaller actions if you are a 'big leaper' and achieve that way.
Has impulsive decision making actually been that?
Are you someone who marinades then decides? maybe you need a clear picture of the end results.
Can I give you the story of the firefighter who used his intuition. For no good reason when going into a house fire, he cried withdraw and the fighters got out before a big back draft. Luck? intuition? No, what the firefighter was doing was processing, assessing the flames, the smoke, the environment, using his evaluation skills without knowing it, based on his experience of previous fires.
Some people work that way, others of us draft huge excel spreadsheets of steps and goals. We could each try a180.
Perhaps you don't need to post, perhaps that's ok? To read is also to support, it pushes up the read count on a threads. You are as entitled as everyone else. Just as valid to do and be you, even if we nudge you a little occasionally. You are who you are, exactly as you should be, in the right place for you. Your higher power will be your guide, accept it is as it is. Exactly as it has to be. Otherwise it would be different.
It's time to stop struggling and just let it be as it is. You are allowed just to be you, exactly as you are.
You are enough.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 09/01/1511:47 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Hey JB. I like what V's saying...except for the part about you maybe not posting...
One thing I keep thinking is my biggest 180 may be to accept who I am and not run from it with endless 'growth goals'. Doesn't mean I'll use that as an excuse to behave immaturely...but if you understand how I am sometimes then you'll know this 180 may make sense in my case.
Bottom line is I like you just how you are. Your lack of posting makes your posts thoughtful and meaningful, and you've made a big impact in just a few words.
As for why you're here, well, now we're friends. I mean, this starts as a support group for trying to save an M, but it ends up with finding meaning from a loss. I'm glad to have met you. I've never been a forum guy before but the people here have changed my life. I have traditionally been cynical about these 'artificial' relationships, because when I needed someone to help me with my L it's not like I come here...but when I need someone to talk to, and my best friend has already heard my screams 400 days in a row, well...I can count on these forums and Jelly to listen to me share for the 400th time how I feel about divorce- I don't believe in it
I have been afraid that I'm going to get kicked out because so little of what I talk about is even DB forum related at times...it's more IC type of stuff, rants, etc. And I do feel a sense of guilt for bumping other people's threads down that are in more pain than myself. But I think the good we accomplish by making this a COMMUNITY instead of strictly a sterile advice forum is worth it.
I appreciate your last post to me. I will get back to you on that. I respond to the easy posts first. I guess I'm a procrastinator too...
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
You fret that you must be more, different, and have different desires to those you have. Perhaps desires are not the issue, it's the acting on them that causes the problem.
My WH has compulsive gambling desires, they need managing. If WH wants a proper R then this will be necessary. Grown ups say 'no' to themselves very often. Desires are reigned in.
Just suppose you have a desire to poke your eyeballs with a hat pin during sex doesn't mean one acts on it, even if it gives the greatest pleasure ever in the world. And why should we need the other to accept our greatest hat pin desire. Do we instead stick the hat pin in our ears? Do we say we are not worthy of love because another won't let us stick hatpins in their eyes? Do we want secret porn videos of hatpins?
What is wrong with private and personal?
Apart from Liam with cheeeeese cake.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 09/02/1512:27 AM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
It is really hard for me because it isn't black and white. I understand your H was a compulsive gambler. Gambling, drugs, alcohol, smoking, these are things that can be eliminated 100%. They have no place in the natural order.
Sex, food, shopping...these are tougher as there is a time and a place.
For me it isn't easy to see where the line is between desires that make me who I am, that I should be able to share with my partner, and potentially fulfill...and where they need to be left behind and managed. Frankly my wish would be that I could work through that with my partner, and that if she knew what and how deeply I longed for some things that she'd fulfill some of them, and meanwhile I'd respect boundaries and appreciate not every desire was meant to be fulfilled...but that we'd work together and face it as a marital team. As opposed to me keeping this to myself and acting for decades. My point is if my spouse is my best friend I think this could be possible.
As for whether I think there's something 'wrong' with me, I definitely feel that way at times in my heart. But in my head I don't really think so. Even if I bring some emotional baggage, where is the rule written that says you have to be perfect to be in an M? In fact, how many M's have no alcohol, drugs, gambling, porn, EAs/PAs, work addiction, shopping addiction, internet addiction, etc, etc. More and more I'm less worried about being perfectly balanced and trying to find someone perfectly balanced, and instead trying to find someone that is willing to stay by me even if I'm not perfect.
Just the thoughts on my mind. Again, I've got some sorting to do, and some time to do it. No hurry here, because I'm happy with where here is for once.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
JB, I don't disagree. I only want one woman in my life. I feel anything I share with any other women is devaluing the love I want to give to the one who is my W. I can't explain it, that's how I feel.
It may very well be that I've adapted that view because of fear. Of rejection, of not measuring up, of being found to be broken, etc. That may be the case. But like I said to V above, not everything can be 'fixed' in this world.
People die old and lonely, alcoholic, homeless, estranged from their families, etc. This world isn't a fairy tail. What's wrong with me accepting that I'm one of them? The way you might accept being a imaginary cat lady? Why is it ok for you, but not for me?
Really, the idea of having a series of relationships is more than uncomfortable. My heart just closes at the thought. It's more like a phobia than a fear. A fear is scary. A phobia is irrational and overpowering. I don't know what it is or where it comes from. Maybe I can bring it up to IC and grow in some ways. But it's also possible that I don't.
And really, what's so wrong with wanting one person? What's wrong with being willing to stick through them through thick and thin? Again, I'm not saying I don't have standards, my standards would be that they do the same. From there, if we are both truly committed to 'for better or for worse', then we will find a way to find our happiness. Maybe it won't be everything we both dreamed and hoped for, but we'd grow old together, and we'd have some good times, and we wouldn't leave a trail of ex-spouses and broken homes while we pat ourselves on the back about how wise we are for 'knowing who we are and what we want'.
So I like what you're saying, I'm not sure if it's good advice for me or not, and if it is I'm probably not going to be able to follow it anyway...but you never know. One thing is for sure I'll remember it, and meditate on it...you just never know.
Thanks JB, so much.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Hi Jelly - Don't really want to interrupt the great conversation that you and Zues are having - I don't really feel that I am articulate or maybe even deep enough to add to this (I have always been a great listener, a bit mysterious because I never talked about myself, a lot of time spoke with my art and craft) but I feel like I can see much of myself in both of you and can relate to much of what you are saying.
I too in no way want this to be the end of any R's but I don't really have an interest to shop for my next R and only see going into another R if it is with full intention on it being forever. I know this is too much to want or ask for, but it is all I know. (I do realize that this makes me sound hypocritical considering my current state, but it is how I feel.)
Otherwise I may be in the "crazy cat lady" line too.
With your comment on wondering why you post here, I feel the same way as I am not really on the same path as most here (never really have been). But you know this - DBing is for your own personal improvement and growth and I think so is writing on this forum - even if it is to self-analyze. You can help yourself and others by being here (I know you have helped me). Your struggles are your own and are as real as anyone else's.
Kia kaha peace&love
Me-45 W-44 S21, S18, D15 T-27, M-21 BD Jan 2014 PA revealed March 2014 In-house separation - April 2015 I filed - Aug 2015 She moved out Oct 2015
There are different techniques to counter procrastination.
First let's ask exactly what you are doing? Why do you feel the need to break things down into smaller actions if you are a 'big leaper' and achieve that way.
Has impulsive decision making actually been that?
Are you someone who marinades then decides? maybe you need a clear picture of the end results.
Can I give you the story of the firefighter who used his intuition. For no good reason when going into a house fire, he cried withdraw and the fighters got out before a big back draft. Luck? intuition? No, what the firefighter was doing was processing, assessing the flames, the smoke, the environment, using his evaluation skills without knowing it, based on his experience of previous fires.
Some people work that way, others of us draft huge excel spreadsheets of steps and goals. We could each try a180.
Perhaps you don't need to post, perhaps that's ok? To read is also to support, it pushes up the read count on a threads. You are as entitled as everyone else. Just as valid to do and be you, even if we nudge you a little occasionally. You are who you are, exactly as you should be, in the right place for you. Your higher power will be your guide, accept it is as it is. Exactly as it has to be. Otherwise it would be different.
It's time to stop struggling and just let it be as it is. You are allowed just to be you, exactly as you are.
You are enough.
V
All the big decisions I have made in my life were, well you may describe them as inspirational, and there was little I have to do to make them happen. I kinda fell into social work, after my mother forced me into some counselling at age 20 or there about, my counsellor suggested I train to become a telephone counsellor on a youth helpline, I was nannying at the time, and decided I didn't want to be a nanny for the rest of my life. Asked myself, what am I good at and I went back school for my degree in social work. My decision to lose weight, came from a boy breaking my heart. I travelled to Pitcairn Island on a U.K. government social work secondment, because I said yes to a friend because I knew I was less weighty and would be able to manage the terrain. I moved to Alice Springs in Australia, to work in a youth at risk team there, because I was bored with the work I was doing and a relationship had ended.
I'm not sure if you can pick out any patterns there, but what I can see is adversity, prompts me to either run away or make radical change. I have been trying not to do either at the moment. My 180 has been to remain settled and focussed on long term goals like my surgery and buying a house in the near future. I am however bored with the stability. I think the addict in me is ready for the next change, the next fix of drama related to major change.
I'm not sure that answers any of your enquiry V. It has however brought me a little clarity.
JB, I don't disagree. I only want one woman in my life. I feel anything I share with any other women is devaluing the love I want to give to the one who is my W. I can't explain it, that's how I feel.
It may very well be that I've adapted that view because of fear. Of rejection, of not measuring up, of being found to be broken, etc. That may be the case. But like I said to V above, not everything can be 'fixed' in this world.
People die old and lonely, alcoholic, homeless, estranged from their families, etc. This world isn't a fairy tail. What's wrong with me accepting that I'm one of them? The way you might accept being a imaginary cat lady? Why is it ok for you, but not for me?
Really, the idea of having a series of relationships is more than uncomfortable. My heart just closes at the thought. It's more like a phobia than a fear. A fear is scary. A phobia is irrational and overpowering. I don't know what it is or where it comes from. Maybe I can bring it up to IC and grow in some ways. But it's also possible that I don't.
And really, what's so wrong with wanting one person? What's wrong with being willing to stick through them through thick and thin? Again, I'm not saying I don't have standards, my standards would be that they do the same. From there, if we are both truly committed to 'for better or for worse', then we will find a way to find our happiness. Maybe it won't be everything we both dreamed and hoped for, but we'd grow old together, and we'd have some good times, and we wouldn't leave a trail of ex-spouses and broken homes while we pat ourselves on the back about how wise we are for 'knowing who we are and what we want'.
So I like what you're saying, I'm not sure if it's good advice for me or not, and if it is I'm probably not going to be able to follow it anyway...but you never know. One thing is for sure I'll remember it, and meditate on it...you just never know.
Thanks JB, so much.
I'm loving this post Zues, you have cut to the heart of what I want for both of us. We share some pretty strong beliefs about loyalty and commitment, love and imperfection in ourselves and others, and how they impact on marriage, and commitment.
What I have been waiting for in you to acknowledge (don't worry I know this is me too) is that fear, which can lead to phobia, is maybe what is stopping us from potentially being with someone else. To hear that you would even consider giving consideration different way of thinking, possibly a different action in this area is like gold to me.
I don't know if this is the case Zues, and please correct me if I am wrong. But I believe that you and I would likely never be friends or talk in real life. You have written in previous threads that you don't tend to befriend women, or engage too closely with them. I have a little insight into why that is but it makes me sad to think that I would not ever have had the opportunity to have engaged with you. It is my impression that IRL if we had met, you would have been kind, polite and interested. But likely I would have got, and please forgive me if this offends, likely the sales man, the performer the leader. I feel I would have got very little of the real you.
Look I'm not saying that we would be great friends in IRL but from how I read your account of you and women, we likely wouldn't even have the opportunity. It makes me sad that idea.
