In the Arena

[JellyB]

Just for you Lady V - no disrespect taken. I had started this post earlier this morning, however got distract before posting. When I came back Lady V, your post was there on my old thread. LOL. So following is a long ramble of mixed thoughts and feelings. Hope it makes sense.

Thanks for giving me a nudge Lady V!

This is a bit of a purge! (this is likely only to be of value to me -sorry folks)

Where to start, there is so much running around my head that I am not sure for the wood from the trees.

I have been moving forward with life. I love my new position in a small project team working on changing child protection practice in NZ. It has given me focus and passion that I have not had in my work for a very long time.

I have been flat hunting, still no luck, but I am hopeful the right place will come at the right time.

I have decided that I will have my plastic surgery at the end of this work project. So likely it will be around March/April 2016. I feel good about this decision and while I have talked about doing this on and off for the last 8 years, the decision feels right and it really feels like the right time.

I am nervous and scared of not getting the results i want, but I feel in some regard the action is more important than the outcome. If that makes sense. I need to start preparing, good diet and good exercise will be imperative to recovery so I am formulating plans and motivation to make it so. Losing a few more kgs for the surgery will only contribute to positive results. I am, I have to say excited by this for the first time ever. So lower body lift, upper body lift, arm and thigh lift here I come!!!

Mood and emotions are all over the place currently. I am not sure what it is, well that is not entirely true. I don't have any contact with ex, so the DBing changes I am making have occurred in isolation. Very much a do it for myself evolution.

SoI have consciously decided to put myself out there to date again, to practice new ways of relating and being and watch myself for what was old behaviour and what was new.

Well the dating arena is indeed a great learning place, I am fortunate too to have a friend who is also an ex, who I provides feedback, very very honest feedback.

Well for contexts sake I have been seeing someone since the end of July maybe. Lovely man, introverted, slightly nerdy, a foodie, music lover. Very independent. "Happily single" is a description he has given of himself. To sum things up, he said yesterday "i think I would be a much better friend to you, than a boyfriend. While I don't necessarily disagree with him, I am interested in his analysis as to why this was the case. And so an exchange of his reasons why:


A description of JellyB by Mr Date you are " honest, empathetic, kind, genuine, attractive, do stuff you are scared to do, challenge me (in a good way), enjoy cuddles and intimacy" ….and "compassionate, humane, articulate, intelligent and funny, 'oh and you're sexy and sassy too'…."maybe men realize you're an honest genuine soul. There is no 'game' with you. You're open hearted and maybe easily hurt"…"you're a carer and nurturer"…" "sweetness and kindness". Hmmmmmm???????????????

How to think and feel about the above. I have some general insight into to men feeling controlled by woman her care and give too much. In this case with this man he is definitely of that belief, he "would feel stifled, controlled, guilty ", and given my honest genuine soul and open hearted(ness), he would worry about "disappointing me" and "you don't need to be disappointed".

There are some things in the above that are not new to me. First lets call him Mr M (ex who is now and friend and confidant), often told me he loved my sweetness however that I needed to "harden up".

And in society there appears to be a value that "nice girls" are less attractive to men, and that "Men love B*tches". They value what the work for, the distancer pursuer at play.

I don't know what to make of any of the feedback above. I am of course aware that the above is a filter of this man's own issues and emotional development.

But there are some common themes being fedback to me by the men in my life. That my open hearted, sensitive nature is well I guess unattractive to men. That to be caring and nurturer is a controlling behavior to men. I am left with the impression that openness and vulnerability are viewed as controlling?????? Does it present to men as being boundaryless and therefore weak, desperate, needy. (Zues will go to town on this one - I am open to hearing your thoughts Zeus).

I am left with anger and disappointment from this interaction with this very lovely kind, funny man. He told me not to change to be myself, not to change for any man, because for the right man, all of the above qualities will be exactly what he wants.

My confidence and self esteem are intact (positive DBing outcome), I realize that many of my qualities as described above, would be attractive to man who is emotionally healthy. But I am left somewhat confused about "being too nice" - when is being too nice a problem. I hold beliefs about how people should be treated and respected. I demonstrate those through how I live my life. How did treating someone they way you want to be treated, become being viewed as needy, desperate and controlling. It leaves me stumped! Because I am at loss as to how to change something I am doing when I do not insight into what I am doing wrong. I don't feel needy or desperate or controlling. But just because I feel doesn't mean it isn't so.

I have some theory that this maybe about the men who are initially attracted to me, but what is it? What am I giving off that attracts good men, who don't like nice open hearted, non game playing, sexy sassy confident, articulate me.


COLOUR ME ONE VERY CONFUSED JELLYB

[PigPen]

Hi Jelly,

First of all congratulations on the commitment to your surgery and the further commitment to the preparation for it! It's a big step. I had really awful acne as a teenager, not the "oh I have a pimple" acne, but the kind of stuff that makes it's way onto the cover of the pamphlets in the dermatologists office. I wore my hat as low as it would go for years. When I decided to treat it with pharmaceuticals, I knew there was a risk, but also knew that I had taken a stand. It was one of the best decisions I've ever made and I'm completely anti pharm.

So good for you! Anything that helps your confidence is a plus in my book. Please be extra vigilant about your health both pre and post op, look into fish oil and how it will help post op, and keep your diet as anti inflammatory as possible.

As for your date...he's just one guy. He may be the same pattern of guy that you've been attracting lately, but he's still just one guy. Just like post BD, you don't know how much of what he was telling you was "truth" and how much was just his personal preference. He just wasn't the right guy.

As cliche as it sounds, someone's going to come along and think you're the cat's pajamas. Just the way you are. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't investigate all the ways to make yourself stronger, more confident, raise your self esteem, continue to develop relationship and communication skills, and take care of your physical body.

But it doesn't mean you should change any of the qualities that make you who you are. Open hearted, non game playing, sexy, sassy, confident, and articulate are amazing qualities. Never lose those or turn down the volume on them.

Maybe look into whether there is any control that lies beneath how the caring and nurturing are displayed. Maybe there is something there? Maybe there isn't.

We can all look at ourselves till we're blue in the face, but to the right person, you're going to be a dream come true. This guy just wasn't the one. Plus, there's an ex that still has some emotional pieces of your heart, this might have just been too early for you and the Universe was kind enough to give you someone to transition you to where you are now, then you'll meet the next lucky guy that gets to be the PB to your J. (I couldn't help myself....sorry)

Big hug Jelly B.

PP

[Vanilla]

I think it's the type you are attracted to, and therefore who you attract.

These types of dates are your comfort zone.

When you are ready for a new type, they will be every where. You will fall over them.

V

[JellyB]

I can't even imagine that Lady V. But you are right of course. This man was my old type. And it didn't feel comfortable. I knew it wasn't right but I continued to walk into the hole I provided myself.

today have experienced a few triggers of rejection and abandonment which has not been nice, in fact more than a little emotionally exhausting. I do however get to practice not delving into the depths of it, not retraumatising myself is getting mariginally easier. Most times I am there before I know it, but at least I know what it is now.

Thanks for popping by V.

Much tummy rainbow love

Jellybaby xxx

[JellyB]

Hi PP

I always love to have you pop by my place, it always is a privilege.

I was a fatty through my teenage years so get the angst the acne must have created for you. Yes preparation is going to the key to a good recovery from the numerous surgeries. I want to minimise the stress on the body as much as possible. Good diet and exercise seems like the easiest way to get there. Thanks for the advice on the fish oil. I was reading the the benefits of arnica, to minimise bruising. Diet wise of course no processed foods, white flour and sugar would be off the menu. I'm mostly a fish and chicken girl anyway and loads of Veges. Spring and summer are on their way here so exercise outside the gym is closer.

I would love to be someone's cats pjamas, to find the PB to my Jelly. (So lovely it made me smile ) but I am feeling rather doubtful. I am becoming increasingly more convinced that I am not made for intimate relationships. I dont generally feel comfortable with men, either plantonic or intimate. I don't get them or they me. It's like. its like being in a foreign country and not understanding the language. I appreciate the beauty and uniqueness of the landscape, the food and the culture, but at the end of a beautiful day I am still left feeling that I missed so much because I couldn't speak the language. The same can be said of men understanding me. Most of the time I feel like a small child who is considered a nuisance.

As Lady V once wrote I have been fortunate to have had the experience of romantic intimate love with two good men. That is more than some have in a lifetime. I am grateful for them and what I experienced. Now maybe is my time to just be me. Without the need to have another love. There have been Spinster woman for centuries who have had rewarding and fulfilling lives.

Again PP thank you for stopping by. Your words of encouragement means a lot.

If you happend to travel this way stop in and say hello, kiwi hospitality is world renouned.

Jellybaby xxx

[Zues126]

JB. This was a lot to get my head around. I have so much wrestling on my mind that it will probably be more of a conversation than one post.

I do understand the idea that being nurturing might be controlling if taken to an extreme. For example, if I was with a woman that wanted to tie my shoes for me that might come across as smothering. As a man I do have a desire to go off in the world on my own and adventure, fight dragons, do battle, and all that...then I want to come home and reconnect with the one I love. I crave intimacy and a really close connection, but also need to go be my own person as well. I'm not suggesting you didn't allow this, just sharing how I work and the other men I know.

As for the boundary/neediness/personality thing...I don't have an issue with any of that. If you've read the post I just made on my thread and some of my other recent posts you'll know where I'm coming from. While maybe men are ATTRACTED to b*tches and women like bad boys, I wouldn't want to be with one myself. I'd much rather have a mature partner that I could count on to be by my side. It would be nice if she understood my DESIRES, and was willing to make them part of the relationship priorities...but I'd much rather have a solid and real M than find a series of dance partners for a push/pull R just because it's stimulating in some ways at times.

A good friend of mine is in a long term M. His spouse is a great partner. There is only one problem- he doesn't feel attracted to her. It's very frustrating for him. He sees all of these other women that give him jolts of lightning, and he knows he'll never get to act on it. We talked about it recently and he told me flat out he'll never act on it, he'll never cheat, leave his W, break up his family, or even hurt her by talking to her about it. I am really proud of him for this. I told him that I believe NO M is really fulfilling, and on this subject men crave variety by nature and no matter who he was with he'd probably feel this way. Further more most W would leave him, cheat, or pursue their own selfish purposes because his W probably feels the same way about some things in their R...so even if he did have a woman that fulfilled him in this way, it would probably be short lived, or there'd be another issue that would seem to interfere with his happiness. Again, I am SO proud of him.

The only difference of what I'd REALLY crave in an R is the ability to explain to my partner how difficult it was for me, and instead of being judged and condemned for it, being supported and appreciated for my loyalty, and having them do what they can to 'spice things up' to meet my needs withing the boundaries of a monogamous relationship.

So JB, I don't think you should change, even if you could, which you may not be able to. Reiterating from my post I don't believe there's a right way to be. And I think there are men out there that would appreciate you the same way I think a woman out there might appreciate me even if I don't feel it's possible.

Oh- one other thought, and in the beginning this was to be my most important point- Why does it have to be all or nothing? Either you have the idealized R you crave or you're a cat lady? What if you accepted being by yourself, and then just found an R or an M that wasn't everything you wanted, but it was still an M? Basically consider yourself single, with SOME of the perks of your idealized M...it seems the issue could be your expectations of what an M can do for you. If you are independent and 'unneedy' enough to be on your own, could you be in an R and not count on your partner for so much, and just enjoy what it brings?

I struggle with this too...in some ways I may rather be single than to be in an R where I feel perpetually misunderstood, neglected, diminished, and unappreciated...so this is more of a brainstorm. But somewhere in there is the balance, because as my friend exemplifies, no M lives up to our desires.

Thanks for talking JB.

[JellyB]

Hey Zues,

I wouldn't have thought that something I posted would have your mind wrestling.

I believe in the past that while there was no conscious intent on my behalf to control the men in my life by caring and nurturing, I am of the opinion that this is indeed how the men have experienced my love. I have wondered if my easiest expression of love is acts of service. I am also aware that as I become stressed or triggered (emotional distancing, physical distancing, perceived rejection and abandonment) in my relationships the more I tend to give, nurture and care. I have been advised by my therapist that this is a very human response to stress, do more of what you perceive you are good at. I believe I found myself in a never ending cycle of push-pull with my partners because of this. Sadly my mental and physical health came off worse for wear.

I have never been a big believer in men love b*itches mentality. I reeks of game playing for me and I am of the opinion that if you attract a man on a set of false personality traits it is likely that 1. you become tired of playing the game and let your defenses down and be yourself, disappointing your partner with who you really are or 2. You attract a man who is a game player and spend your time playing games rather than developing the relationship and true intimacy.

I am more confident in myself to know that I am a very sweet uncomplicated girl when it comes to love and commitment. I may indeed be complicated within my own self, mind and emotions and sensitivities, but within the relationship itself love and commitment are very clear goals to an intimate and fulfilling relationship.

It is a very good point you raise about enjoying being single and maybe being too fixated on being in a relationship. I believe you are to right to question me about my motivations about what I believe that it will bring me. This has been the topic of many discussions in therapy. Like you Zues my relationships with peers, family and friends, clients and members of the public are positive and I can engage and be social, while I don't find social relationships easy, I can and do make them work and find them fulfilling. They are mutual in respect and feeling. However my intimate romantic relationships do not occur with any ease and this is where I find the most challenge in my life.

I do wonder if it is a little of where the attention goes the energy follows or maybe alternatively what you resist persists. What I mean by this, is that I know I feel incredibly vulnerable with men, I distrust their ability to be mindful of my sensitive soul, I anticipate that they are likely to judge me on my physical appearance, misunderstand me, take me granted, and leave me. I attract and create circumstances to make this so. Often my unease and anxiety, subconsciously toxifying things before I even notice.

I am working on this, with encouragement to myself about my adaptiblity, my fearlessness and growing trust in myself that I wont in fact die from feelings or rejection or abandonment. (I know i can say that to your Zues because I know you get what that means). It is a slow journey! The all or nothing thing Cat lady or happily married, well I believe it is my poor attempt at self protection. A middle ground would be far healthier. I believe I am navigating this path as we speak. in times of emotional crisis, I find the isolation of being single so attractive. The single life is uncomplicated, and for me while I experience the loneliness at times to overwhelming, it feels far safer and expects little from me. I can and do live a happily single life.

I have to say Zues I am disturbed by one comment you make here. The sense of pride you have for your friend, who remains in his marriage to a wife to whom he is not attracted. You have not provided a full account of the relationship, so my following comments may well be out of context or inappropriate. Personally while I can see you respect his willingness to remain in the marriage, I am outraged and offended by his behaviour. I make this statement on the basis that you have not mentioned his engaging in any conversation or action on his behalf to improve the situation.

If I was his wife I would be way beyond hurt and mortified to know that my husband was informing his friends that he was happily getting "lightening jolts " from other women, and feeling proud of himself for not cheating. What a complete disservice and disrespectful way to be in a marriage and his family. You can't be supportive of his accepting, its ok to feel this way in marriage because this better than not cheating and breaking up my family. Really?????

For me it is as dishonest and hurtful as cheating and is likely doing as much damage. For me there is no marriage based on his behaviour. He has already emotionally left the marriage, he is there physically enacting commitment,but it is commitment in name only.

I hope you have been encouraging him to seek counselling and support with this issue. If DBing has anything to teach is that attraction and love can be reignited. For your friend to do nothing is well for me, just plain out of order and outright insulting to his wife and children!

I am sorry if this offends you and if I have not fully understood your friends position, there are indeed likely other factors. My stated position is based on the little information you have provided.

As always Zues I welcome any comments or advice you provide me, I always gain something from our exchanges.

Look forward to our next one

JellyB XXX

[Zues126]

Thanks for your thoughts JB. I'll get back to the other parts of your posts later, but just had to respond to the part about my friend. You're entitled to your opinions and feelings JB. I happen to strongly believe in my friend's behavior. I can't want to go into detail as it isn't my sitch, I would hate for my post to cause harm to another.

The idea that he has already emotionally left his M- I couldn't feel more opposite. He has a great R that he continues to invest in. His M is his number one priority, and he is a great engaged dad, and strong provider. They take trips together, with and without the children, they care for each other, joke around, etc. He tells me things have gone as well as they ever have.

This part about lightning bolts, he isn't talking about one woman, but just the heightened senses that you get when someone new and interesting comes around. How he doesn't get that in his long term M, and that is difficult for him.

As for telling his friend, let me clarify. I am his best friend, closer than most men are in that we talk daily. In the ten years I've been his best friend he has never said a single bad word about his W. This wasn't even about her, it was about his difficulty to deal with his own issues. The reason he isn't talking to her about this is that it isn't something she can change, it is how things are. So he is going to continue to love her and love the children and stay in his M.

I honestly think this is a model for what a good spouse should do. What's the betrayal? That other women can occasionally spark emotions he hasn't felt in an M for a while? That he finds other women attractive? To me that is how men are wired. In fact, if you reread my posts pretty much the only thing I long for in a M is a woman that understands that. Hard to believe that's possible when you equate it with cheating and emotional betrayal.

I'm not offended JB. We're different people and I am not threatened because you don't feel differently. I struck out the questions because I don't need to force the conversation to keep going. We have other things we can work through.

[JellyB]

Fair call on wanting end the conversation with regard to friend, and anticipated that there was likely more there. My concern however is that your friends wife in this situation is almost invisible. Yes he is respectful in all other ways of her, his children and marriage, and yet thre is this untruth between them that is impacting their marriage. I only raise this issue as you appear (and I could well be wrong) that imperfections in marriage and relationships are to be expected, anticipated. Ignored even. To some degree I agree with you. I do however struggle with putting myself in his wife's position, which is and forgive me if I am wrong, but your here but you don't actually find me, I am assuming sexually attractive (I say that as you describe that his wife is in every other way, a good wife, friend and mother). I struggle with this view. And do wonder how this issue reflects your own situation, your feelings of being less than in your own marriage. Does friends wife have this experience? I know I would.

[Zues126]

I get it JB. This is the central reason I'm not sure I can be in an M. It seems the choices are to be 'dishonest' (not bringing it up) or 'hurtful and diminishing' (by voicing it to your partner). What's a man to do?

This man and his W are best friends, and in all other ways their M is super solid. They have navigated through some difficulty, yet they are doing better than ever. My friend married her because of who she is, how well they got along, and because he knew she'd be a great life partner he could raise a family with. The physical compatibility wasn't at an all time high, but he didn't feel it was a deal breaker. Now he has pangs of regret at some things he can't experience, and frustration with how much desire he has as a man.

Meanwhile I spoke to another friend today. He told me his M is also better than ever. Good sex life. Everything. But he tells me he is feeling really down about who he is. He feels like there's something wrong with him because his sexual desire is so high. He's been tempted lately to start looking at porn again (he did many years ago), and while he isn't he's upset with himself that he's feeling that desire.

As for me personally, my desire is overwhelming. I truly don't believe it's possible for most women to understand how I feel on a daily basis. There is no one woman, no matter how desirable, that would satisfy the desire in my heart. These conversations with two of my best friends indicate many other men feel this way.

The reason I don't know I can be in a relationship is exactly around this issue. If women believe my desire is insulting or critical to them and feel rejected and diminished, we're not going to be a good couple. If I share my true feelings with them they will feel worthless. But if I don't I feel neglected and misunderstood. I actually feel like I have to wear this mask all of the time and pretend to be this person that doesn't feel how I feel, and if I show what's really in my heart than I'm being a bad guy and making my partner feel diminished and being hurtful.

I think in traditional marriages this is a serious contention point. I think it oscillates between men biting their tongue, not sharing their hearts with their partners, getting scolded if they check out another woman in public, and essentially 'wearing the mask and feeling unfulfilled, unappreciated, misunderstood, neglected, taken advantage of, and rejected...to on the other side women feeling diminished, not good enough, hurt, and eventually resentful. Some M's lean one way, some lean the other, and some get tugged back and forth. For most I think this is one of those 'un-resolvable issues' that Michelle says couples have to just live with.

So when I see my friend living with it I am proud of him, because I don't know there is a solution.

For me in my M I refused to 'wear the mask'. I was open about my desires, but my W felt the way you and I described above as a result. Eventually she left me. Sex was part of it, she even said "I'll never be who you want me to be, and you'll never be who I want you to be". That was actually probably true.

So what gives? I can't change my desires, and I don't want to be with a partner that feels I'm being hurtful and despicable for being who I am, or that thinks that once she's with me it should either all go away or I should hide the biggest struggle in my heart from her daily for the rest of my life. Oh, and even if I do I'm being 'dishonest' then and need counseling. BUT- if women can't help but being hurt that they aren't enough for their man if they aren't able to quench every desire their partner has, then I can't change that either.

Again- my dream would be to find a partner that doesn't take my desires and needs as hurtful, but instead accepts me, appreciates that I don't act on them, and makes them part of the marital priorities along with her desires and needs. I long to have that kind of truth and intimacy, and mutual effectiveness.

BUT THEN FINALLY, and maybe back to the underlying issue- while I do believe there are women that might be compatible for me in this way, I know we'll have OTHER irresolvable issues in which I might STILL have to 'wear a mask'. And you know what? I long for more, but I DO think that's life, and that's reality to some extent.

This is back to the 'all or nothing' thinking. I'm with you JB. I can tell you I'd rather stay single for life than hide my inner self from my partner forever, and maybe you'd rather stay single for life than be with a partner that threatens your self worth perpetually. But I do think there's room for some acceptance of a M that's broken in some ways, but effective in others. If the bar is idealistic perfection or bust there is no winner. If we can find joy in a lifelong partnership, even one that has some warts, then I think it can be a positive experience (at least much of the time). Better than sitting on the sidelines. And definitely better than breaking up M after M chasing the dragon of perfection.

Mic drop.

PS- you're awesome JB, thanks for talking to me about this.