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Originally Posted By: PigPen

This is a good way to look at it As. She didn't have to ask and check in. My mind reading still tells me that she's trying to make sure that I'm OK but only as it eases her of her own burden. My W has tried a few times to get me to agree that since there's been so much positive change in my life since she left that this was all a really great decision. I'm not there yet nor do I know if I ever will be.

Appreciate your thoughts on this though, you are right - she did ask.
PP


I do find this type of response from the WAS strange, as like you said its one way for them to lift the guilt, justify their own actions .... The image of your spouse wrecking your Vintage Corvette, she is sorry she wrecked it but look with that insurance money you now have a new Truck. Most of us would prefer that old Vette which was irreplaceable. .... Hard to explain it to a non-car lover eh?

To compound this .. its almost adds some guilt for the LBS that DBing and reinventing themselves, doing better ... is working against them, as if one were a mess the WAS would say "Wow look at you, you are a mess, this is not working out lets work on the M" ... enough to make a person crazy .. oh wait ... to late for me.


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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
Originally Posted By: PigPen

This is a good way to look at it As. She didn't have to ask and check in. My mind reading still tells me that she's trying to make sure that I'm OK but only as it eases her of her own burden. My W has tried a few times to get me to agree that since there's been so much positive change in my life since she left that this was all a really great decision. I'm not there yet nor do I know if I ever will be.

Appreciate your thoughts on this though, you are right - she did ask.
PP


I do find this type of response from the WAS strange, as like you said its one way for them to lift the guilt, justify their own actions .... The image of your spouse wrecking your Vintage Corvette, she is sorry she wrecked it but look with that insurance money you now have a new Truck. Most of us would prefer that old Vette which was irreplaceable. .... Hard to explain it to a non-car lover eh?

To compound this .. its almost adds some guilt for the LBS that DBing and reinventing themselves, doing better ... is working against them, as if one were a mess the WAS would say "Wow look at you, you are a mess, this is not working out lets work on the M" ... enough to make a person crazy .. oh wait ... to late for me.



So true Cali, it makes no sense to me but I understand the underlying reasoning. My W told me right after BD that since she was beautiful, and my ex was beautiful, it meant I would attract another beautiful woman...I couldn't for the life of me figure out how that was supposed to make me feel better. I completely get the Corvette analogy. I love her, not her looks.

And your second point has been a big issue for me to overcome. When I started doing more GAL and feeling better about myself, the exact response was, "I know you're doing better now without me than you could with me, this is the Universe's way of telling us both that we should be D." For the next few weeks I just stayed home and kept to myself. It was like GAL'ing and DB'ing was going to directly lead to the D. It was giving her justification for it!

I get it now but that was a tough one to get through as well. She doesn't need justification. She can find externalities and tell me they're the justification but they aren't.

Thanks for stopping by.

PP


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Hey PigPen. It can be very frustrating. My favorite is the statistic about how people 5 years after their D are happier then when they ended their marriage. Duh! The M was in a bad spot! What that neglects to mention is that people that stay in their M are happier 5 years later as well- AND STILL BLEEPING MARRIED!

So things going better being equated to justification for D can be a logical brain trick, and irritating to hear. But as long as you recognize that this is WAWs way of alleviating her guilt and justifying her decision then you can at least understand what's driving it and transcend that stuff.

The sad part is that there is some truth to the fact that things will get better post DB in a short term view. If you look at quality of life on a 1-3 year vantage point the D makes sense as it means you are 'free', you can date other people and have endorphin rushes, you can live in the fantasy of the potential of great things in your future...compare that to the hard agonizing work of piecing and dealing with your problems. The issue is that in the long view, the 10-50 year view, it's much better to work through those issues and have a durable and improved M than to run and start over, building a new faulty structure on top of a poor foundation of a broken family.

That's why this process takes so long and why so many sitch's never turn around. Most people don't have this view and it takes years for them to really get this. And many never do.

BT commented and I replied about how DB can keep us in denial and hold us back from reaching closure on our loss. I believe in standing for M, and DB road. But truly the M is over and it is unlikely to work out for any of us. This doesn't mean we shouldn't DB, do 180s for us, and continue to stand by our M...just that we should do that because it's what we believe and we want to be better people, not because we expect it to save our M. Be PP2.0 and be proud of your decisions, understand it probably won't matter, learn to accept that, and if your in the minority who's WAS comes out of the fog in the next couple of years you can figure it out from there. But there's no avoiding the loss, so stay on your road and continue to let go and move forward.

Last edited by Zues126; 08/28/15 05:39 PM.

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You may be right on the trying to assuage her guilt, but she still is feeling guilty because she recognizes that she is causing someone she still cares for pain. That is a good sign mixed in with a possibly bad sign. It still gives you a couple clues.

First, she still cares about you & she still is focused on you and paying attention. This is an opening to connect and build something (be it friendly relations, friendship, or something more). Also, she is watching & will see your 180s, your GAL, your detachment, your lack of pursuit, and this will have an impact on her. Where that will lead isn't clear, but when you make a change, you know that it will have some impact on your dynamic. That is a really good thing.

Second, if you get the vibe that she is assuaging her guilt, then you know she is still wanting space and that you need to keep away from any pursuing behavior and just keep your GAL & friendly detachment. Not time to start suggesting doing things together yet. Now, whether she actually feels this way is a hunch on your part, so you'll need other evidence to give you clues whether your hunch is being confirmed, unsupported, or really, really unclear. Nothing wrong with the cautious approach until you start getting real patterns of behavior that suggest otherwise.

I have to say that I think several of us who have chimed in have seen more positive signs that suggest that while she still may be in the mindset of sticking to her guns, that is taking some will power and there are some feelings (possibly not conscious to her yet) pulling her in the other direction.

Nothing for you to change really. You're doing well in your interactions for the most part. I understand wanting to have a skeptical outlook to avoid getting your hopes up and get hurt further, and of course you are there interacting with her & we are just reading your reports. Still, I'd be a little less pessimistic than you are given what you've told us.

Keep on keeping on.


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Originally Posted By: Zues126


So things going better being equated to justification for D can be a logical brain trick, and irritating to hear. But as long as you recognize that this is WAWs way of alleviating her guilt and justifying her decision then you can at least understand what's driving it and transcend that stuff.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't DB, do 180s for us, and continue to stand by our M...just that we should do that because it's what we believe and we want to be better people, not because we expect it to save our M. Be PP2.0 and be proud of your decisions, understand it probably won't matter, learn to accept that, and if your in the minority who's WAS comes out of the fog in the next couple of years you can figure it out from there. But there's no avoiding the loss, so stay on your road and continue to let go and move forward.


Thanks Zeus, this is how I feel at the moment. I believe on some level she feels bad. When we met three weeks ago she asked me if I knew "you aren't bad right, there's nothing wrong with you?" I was confused about the question but then remembered clearly her telling me that she was leaving me because I was "broken".

I always appreciate your stoicism. You're right, the statistics aren't in any of our favors. But, I truly believe that we will come out of this as better people if we stick to DB. If I get D or not, I have already learned a lifetime of relationship and communication lessons from Wonka alone, let alone from all of the other threads that I follow.

Thanks for stopping by.

PP


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Originally Posted By: asitis
You may be right on the trying to assuage her guilt, but she still is feeling guilty because she recognizes that she is causing someone she still cares for pain. That is a good sign mixed in with a possibly bad sign. It still gives you a couple clues.

First, she still cares about you & she still is focused on you and paying attention. This is an opening to connect and build something (be it friendly relations, friendship, or something more). Also, she is watching & will see your 180s, your GAL, your detachment, your lack of pursuit, and this will have an impact on her. Where that will lead isn't clear, but when you make a change, you know that it will have some impact on your dynamic. That is a really good thing.

Second, if you get the vibe that she is assuaging her guilt, then you know she is still wanting space and that you need to keep away from any pursuing behavior and just keep your GAL & friendly detachment. Not time to start suggesting doing things together yet. Now, whether she actually feels this way is a hunch on your part, so you'll need other evidence to give you clues whether your hunch is being confirmed, unsupported, or really, really unclear. Nothing wrong with the cautious approach until you start getting real patterns of behavior that suggest otherwise.

I have to say that I think several of us who have chimed in have seen more positive signs that suggest that while she still may be in the mindset of sticking to her guns, that is taking some will power and there are some feelings (possibly not conscious to her yet) pulling her in the other direction.

Nothing for you to change really. You're doing well in your interactions for the most part. I understand wanting to have a skeptical outlook to avoid getting your hopes up and get hurt further, and of course you are there interacting with her & we are just reading your reports. Still, I'd be a little less pessimistic than you are given what you've told us.

Keep on keeping on.


Thanks As, I see the positive signs, I do. I'm also a bit jaded by my W. I believe what she's told me as far as what she wants. It's also not the first or second time she's told me this. I believe I'm at that place where I miss her, love her, but also look ahead at my life without her and think it's going to be fascinating.

I truly appreciate your completely outside perspective, nor do I believe I can look at my sitch objectively. I can see the points you mentioned, and positives that Wonka mentioned. Maybe I am just guarded against getting my hopes up.

So much of DB'ing seems to be giving yourself completely up to fate or a higher power. But doing so and then doing a hell of a lot of hard work here on the ground. Fate is going to decide whether that hard work will pay off in the form of reconciliation, and the only possibility of reconciliation exists if you do that hard work and leave the rest to fate. If that makes sense.

I'm in for the work. That's happening no matter what. I'm excited for it, and am completely turned on by learning all of this and using the little interactions I have with my W as learning experiences. I'm grateful for those opportunities in themselves. They are true nuggets of life wisdom that I wouldn't get otherwise.

Thanks for stopping by, I've made it to the cushion four mornings this week and am really digging the time down there.

Big hug,

PP


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Yeah, I'm not saying I'm right, but for me hope was the devil. It just gets in the way of detachment.

I know, you could say it's a motivator for personal growth...but if we're really doing the growth for us we don't need that motivator. And the changes we make due to 'hope' are therefor the ones that aren't likely to sustain. Oh, we could go down the path of 'using hope to establish habits that will later be for ourselves', but really the best thing to do is let go of hope and put that energy into things we can control.

Not saying that's easy...I guess I have the same DB coach as As...sounds like Jodi all day long. We contract them with the goal of saving the M and they definitely try for that. I think their fear is that if they tell us it's over we will stop working on ourselves or something. Not sure. What I know is that I was 'hopeful' for the first three months, thought I saw 'signs of progress' such as questioning her decision, asking if I was seeing anyone, telling me she was starting to like the person I was becoming, etc...only to lead to a reality check so catastrophic I still wouldn't believe it if it hadn't happened to me.

Anyway, maybe that's where I needed to be at the time, and maybe it was good to plant some positive seeds with her before we parted ways entirely. But hope hasn't done anything but trip me up and cause me pain, and my heart goes out to all of those that cling to the idea of saving your M. I hope a few do, but that will happen with or without your hope.

It reminds me of 'trying to win'. I play competitive pool. One thing I have learned is there's no use in 'trying to win'. What does that even mean? I mean, you can't control the outcome. There is no guarantee you'll win. So trying to do something out of your control just creates pressure on yourself. Instead, I try to fight my hardest. Leave it all on the table. Hit every shot with my best effort. Enjoy the challenge I'm faced with. All of those things I CAN control. This creates confidence instead of pressure, because I can do those things. I enjoy myself more, play better, and hey, if I happen to get to the finish line first I'll get the trophy regardless of what I was 'trying' to do.

Sorry if I'm jaded, each to their own, wish you all well on your journeys, and I do know it will work out for everyone who does the work and has faith...I'll trust God to decide what working out looks like in my life.


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I wouldn't say hope was the devil for me but it has had its negative effects detaching when I've focused on it and too much hope, or only had hope it would work out. I don't think I'll ever give up hope things will work out but I may completely forget about it one day. At this point I still have it but its tucked away in a box out of sight and mostly out of mind. It still keeps me doing the right things that may make progress with W, which is good because I'm still learning things about myself while interacting with her.


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Originally Posted By: Fogg
At this point I still have it but its tucked away in a box out of sight and mostly out of mind. It still keeps me doing the right things that may make progress with W, which is good because I'm still learning things about myself while interacting with her.


This is it Fogg. I agree with this completely. My hope is tucked well away. It's hope in something I can't understand with my rational mind at this point so I don't try to.

But, I look at the how many times we may have to interact together. Each one of those is golden opportunity for me, and for you. Not an opportunity to show our W's anything or make progress in our sitch's, but to learn as much as humanly possible from them. I know for a fact that the interactions around my dog have taught me a year's worth of relationship study. They have.

Those interactions alone have opened my mind to a completely new way of relating to relationships and communicating within them. That's incredible, I'll keep taking those and using them to grow as much as possible.

Plus, I've got two weeks of red meat eating and butt sniffing to watch!

Have a great weekend, how's the physical training going?


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PP

I am on target, apart from flood day I followed the program.

My thighs ache a little. I switched body balance for Yoga. Mainly because yoga always sets me off with a migraine, I think it's because of my type 2.

The day of the flood my eating was very weird.

I don't eat much meat, but I had a naked burger and salad at Bills. I have a spin booked tomorrow but may need to skip it as I have to collect a dehumidifier.

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Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
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